It is proposed to take No. a15, statements on delivering sustainable economic renewal and securing our public finances, resumed.
Order of Business.
There are no proposals to be put to the House. I call on Deputy Bruton.
Yesterday, a document, which had been refused consistently to the Leaders of the Opposition all day in this House, was leaked to the press. This was at a time when Members were given the impression that the Oireachtas was being asked to play a role in framing a strategy to recover from the great economic problems we face. Instead, Members were treated to a scoffing performance by the Taoiseach and his Ministers. The manner in which this House is being treated does little to the credit of politics at this time of crisis. In respect of this document, does the Tánaiste still rule out any tax increases in 2009? Is that the categoric position? That was the position stated by the Minister for Finance——
While I do not like to interrupt Deputy Bruton, unfortunately, as he well knows, this matter is not in order at present. There are other ways of raising it. The Order of Business is——
There is a document——
The rules governing the Order of Business are framed by Members. Were Members to change them it would be a different matter, but I must adhere to them.
Can the Ceann Comhairle listen to the——
I can of course. However, I am simply stating that.
While I do not know whether the Ceann Comhairle saw the aforementioned document, it contains commitments by the Government to increase taxes. That constitutes a promise to introduce a new Finance Bill, does it not?
If one is asking it that way——
That is what I am asking.
——one must ask whether something is promised.
A document is available that apparently indicates a considerable likelihood of such increases, although, given the sort of weasel words used by the Government, one never can be sure. I wish to ask——
In truth, Deputy Bruton is improvising.
No, I would like——
This is a matter that can be raised during the debate, which will be held today.
No, it cannot.
I am perfectly entitled to ask whether a document that Members have seen but which has not been presented to the Dáil, which indicates tax increases and does not rule them out in 2009, constitutes an indication there will or will not be additional tax increases in 2009. That is a legitimate question.
Further, in what format will Members have a debate about these decisions? I note the social partners have not yet engaged on any of the decisions that are to be taken. In what format will the Oireachtas have a debate about such decisions? Will Members be presented with a list of choices, with cost implications and impacts on various people and parts of our community, from which they will make choices? Will there be analysis or content behind a list of cuts? Members have been treated like imbeciles in the past by the Government, which simply has listed a row of numbers without analysis. This practice has got the Government into huge problems. Will Members, for the first time, be provided next week with some analysis of what underpins the tax and expenditure changes?
In short, does the framework document forum constitute promised business? That is the issue.
The Ceann Comhairle is being totally unfair this morning.
I am not being unfair.
He is treating the Dáil in the same fashion as does the Government.
The Ceann Comhairle should recall his speech last week.
No, I am not being unfair. The problem is there are no Leaders' Questions on Thursday mornings. However, that is a problem for the House.
It is a problem.
In order to facilitate the Ceann Comhairle, the Government is pleased there has been such engagement with the social partners. In particular, it is now moving on to some highly intensive discussions and negotiations and it is the Government's clear intention that this engagement will have a fruitful outcome. As for the House, as the Taoiseach noted yesterday, the Government will facilitate a debate on the matter in due course, once finality has been brought to the situation.
On a point of order——
This House is perfectly entitled to ask whether legislation to introduce new taxes will or will not be introduced. It has been indicated in the public arena that this now is on the agenda. Members of this House need to know whether that is the case because this House is responsible for that decision. The Ceann Comhairle should have had enough of this kind of attempt to try to convert Members into alleyways. The Tánaiste should be allowed to answer the question.
It is not promised legislation.
Is legislation promised?
Before the Tánaiste replies, I wish to raise a point of order with the Ceann Comhairle in respect of the protection of the rights of this House. I refer to those Members who had the opportunity to speak on the business as agreed yesterday and those who remain to speak on the business as proposed today. I suggest to the Ceann Comhairle, in his role as Ceann Comhairle and as the chair of the body that decides on the rules of the House, that the House must be protected. How can a document be distributed to the media generally and yet not be distributed to elected Members of this House who remain to contribute on a debate?
When all decisions have been made.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
This is treating the House with contempt. While I do not wish to cut across the point being raised by Deputy Bruton, there is a point of order involved. How can the Tánaiste state there will be a time in the future for elected Deputies to ascertain what is proposed, having arranged for the document to be circulated to the media and people outside this House? For example, there has not even been a statement that the document will be placed in the Oireachtas Library in order to facilitate those who will participate in the debate later today. This is treating the House with contempt. It is an issue of order and I ask the Ceann Comhairle to defend the rights of Members.
I had an opportunity of exercising my rights, and speaking for ten minutes yesterday. However, Members are entitled to make their speech taking account of what is available by way of actions by the Government and circulating a document to the media is an action of Government.
On the same issue, I made repeated requests that this document would be made available to the Members of this House in advance of the commencement of the statements on the economy yesterday. The finance spokespersons, those entrusted with the lead positions on these issues in each Opposition parties' case, have now made their contributions in advance of any sight of the detail as presented. Having had the document as presented in The Irish Times this morning, I cannot for the life of me understand why there was such resistance on the part of the Taoiseach in releasing this to the other parties in this House. It just defies understanding and, with respect, it indicates a real contempt for other parties and views in this Chamber. We all have repeatedly indicated a collective responsibility to assist Government to address the current difficulties and we cannot do it with this continual effort on the part of Government to blindfold and to——
The Deputy has made his point.
——drive to the irrelevant margins of this debate other voices in this Chamber.
As everybody here well knows, the distribution of documents is not a matter for the Chair, but it is a legitimate question and I ask the Tánaiste——
The protection of Members is a matter for the Chair.
Hold on, please. It is a legitimate question and I ask the Tánaiste to answer on the laying of the document before the Dáil.
It was not the Government which circulated the document.
It was ICTU——
This is a piece of work which——
——claiming credit for writing it.
Sorry, excuse me.
The civil servants are not happy enough with it.
(Interruptions).
Please let the Tánaiste answer.
A Deputy
Is there half a Marlboro cigarette in it for Deputy Cregan?
Shut up and show some bit of manners.
A Deputy
Lovely.
This is an agreed framework. This is a working document. There will be further discussions and negotiations during the weekend in order to bring this matter to finality, at which stage the Government will make a final decision.
What about the Dáil?
Why were the newspapers given it?
A Deputy
Some nerve.
There is no promised legislation. However, what I can say to the Ceann Comhairle is given that Members have asked if the document could be circulated, I will revert back to the Deputies and if at all possible, I will have that——
That is our right. It is not a concession from the Tánaiste.
We already——
I will have that.
It is the best of buying us each a copy of The Irish Times.
The Deputy does not need it at that rate of going.
The point of order was the contempt with which the House was treated and the Tánaiste is not willing to face up to that.
The Tánaiste has been asked to answer the questions as to the laying of the document before the Dáil.
Apples and Oranges.
She has now answered that question.
I will facilitate that, but can I say——
We will get it from Vincent Browne.
——it is quite laughable at the end of the day to hear the Opposition, especially Fine Gael, looking for a document which is a working document with the social partners when, in fact, they have no regard for the social partnership process in the first place.
Deputies
Rubbish.
On a point of order, can I quote from the document, which states: "will be achieved through further taxation measures"? That is a direct quote from the document——
Over five years.
——and is in The Irish Time. That implies legislation.
(Interruptions).
It does not say anything about the time lines.
Did Deputy Burton read the newspapers today?
Is legislation promised?
We will let the Tánaiste answer the question.
It implies that it is in the here and now. "Further taxation measures" is a direct quote from the document.
Tánaiste, could you answer the question?
Read the whole lot of it.
There is no legislation promised at this moment in time.
I call Deputy Gilmore.
Sorry, that is a direct quote from the document.
(Interruptions).
Read the whole document.
I have read it all and there is very thin reading in it.
Deputy Gilmore is next.
Does Deputy Dempsey know what we will get for him, a TV reality show, "Get me out of here, I'm a Minister"?
That is a good one.
Deputy Dempsey will be the star and the first to be voted out.
Deputy Burton is very original.
Deputy Burton can distribute that suggestion to the networks. I call Deputy Gilmore.
The Government is engaged in a great deal of codology here about this document. Everybody has the document. It is in the newspapers. We know what is in it.
The Taoiseach came in here yesterday and read into the record of the House approximately 60% of what is in the document anyway as his script to this House, but without telling the House that it was much of the text of what was being supplied to the social partners.
The Government has a choice here and it needs to make up its mind. On the one hand it comes in and states it wants the co-operation of the House and wants to act by consensus and then it goes on with this kind of nonsensical game playing where it will not level with the House about what is being proposed and what is the status of the document.
I ask the Tánaiste the following because she has not yet answered the question. Will the document be laid before the House? That is only a formality now anyway but it is an important formality because it enables us to refer to the document in order here and would make the Ceann Comhairle's life much easier. Second, when will it be laid before the House?
I want to raise one or two other issues. I have been asking the Taoiseach for the past two days to tell us what is the total cost to the Exchequer of the additional people who have become unemployed and the additional 100,000 who, the Taoiseach now acknowledges, will be unemployed by the end of this year.
I accepted on Tuesday that the Taoiseach did not have the exact figures to hand when he was answering my question, but I assume the Government has calculated what this is and I am surprised that two days later I have not been provided with that information. Will I be provided with that information, the total cost of the additional unemployment, between social welfare payments, secondary benefits and lost tax revenue?
I also ask the Tánaiste to clarify something the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin, stated on radio this morning. Up until now we had been led to believe, and the figures from the CSO etc. told us, that there were an additional 120,000 unemployed since this time last year. The Minister stated on radio this morning that it was 140,000. Perhaps that was a slip of the tongue, which I am prepared——
Deputy Gilmore knows we cannot discuss that now. His other point was raised on Leaders' Questions and we cannot really go into that on the Order of Business on a Thursday morning.
It is important.
I am sure it is important but it is important that I try to adhere to Standing Orders as well. They are there for a reason.
We are in the middle of a debate on the state of the public finances.
I know.
Some 20,000 extra people unemployed makes some difference.
That can be raised during the course of the debate.
Are there 20,000 additional unemployed——
How could the Tánaiste be expected——
——that we did not know about?
We cannot go into that. On the laying of the document before the Dáil, I call the Tánaiste.
That is being done now.
Sorry?
It is being done now.
Which?
The laying of the document, the question Deputy Gilmore asked. The other issue——
You are great.
I love you too.
(Interruptions).
On the issue of funding, the figure worked out is €1.5 million per 1,000. That is the way it is worked out. That is the formula by which it works out as €1.5 billion——
What is that — lost revenue, secondary benefits etc.?
That is to be sent to Deputy Gilmore.
No, €1.5 million per 1,000. Therefore it is €1.5 billion per 100,000, that is the way it is worked out.
I call Deputy Flanagan.
They cannot mean there are 100,000. She cannot even do basic mathematics.
What I will do——
Of course I ruled the matter out of order.
A Cheann Comhairle, because this has been asked on several occasions, I will ask the officials in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, who are the experts on this matter, to make themselves available to the Deputy.
I tried to move on anyway.
Instead of raising this matter in the House, which is out of order, the Deputy will be facilitated with the numbers. There is a calculation and that is how it is worked out.
I thank the Tánaiste for offering that. Would she also ask the officials in the Department of Finance to tell us the revenue lost from a taxation point of view?
I am quite happy to do it that way. I do not necessarily want to do it here on the floor of the House, but if the Tánaiste——
(Interruptions).
This is the Order of Business. We will be looking for the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" next. I cannot allow this on the Order of Business. I must move on.
Step up to the plate.
We are in the middle of a debate——
I know.
——about the public finances.
No, we are not. We are on the Order of Business. That is the problem.
No, I mean the House is in the middle of a debate on the public finances.
Let Deputy Mansergh in.
All I am trying to establish is — the Tánaiste has made an offer and I accept it — that the information regarding the additional social welfare cost will be made available to us, and I thank her for that. What tax revenue will be lost as a result of unemployment? Will the Tánaiste ask the Minister for Finance to make this information available to the House?
It should be pointed out that the figure given by the Tánaiste on the cost of the increase in unemployment levels is at variance with the Taoiseach's figure.
Indeed. It is different.
There is a difference of €500 million between the Tánaiste's figure and that given by the Taoiseach yesterday.
That is the way it worked out.
It is a large difference.
As Deputy Charles Flanagan well knows, this matter is not in order. He should move along.
On promised legislation, is the Tánaiste aware of the widespread discontent and public unease with sentencing in the criminal courts? What legislation is promised regarding the establishment of a judicial council? What legislation is promised with a view to the introduction of sentencing guidelines for judges in the criminal courts?
Where is the legislation on victims' rights and the position of the victim that was promised this time last year when the Government rejected a Fine Gael Bill, as published by Deputy Shatter and me, to enhance those rights? Do the Tánaiste and her colleagues not realise the considerable public unease and disquiet regarding inconsistencies in judicial sentencing?
The judicial council matter is before the Judiciary and the heads of the Bill are going through the parliamentary process. On victims' rights, it is the intention——
It has been there for two years.
I can only give the answer. It is the Minister's clear intention to introduce victims' rights legislation this session.
One year later.
Arising from discussions in the House, I raised a number of matters at the Whips' meeting last night. Referring to them now is in order. The first relates to management companies and the legislation promised thereon. According to the Chief Whip, that legislation has been pushed back beyond First Stage. Seemingly, a specialist group is considering the legislation. Four years have passed since we first raised this issue, but we are no further along and no decision seems to have been made on whether the legislation should come in one part or three. I would like clarity from the Tánaiste in this regard, if the Government has any. In every urban and suburban constituency, people are being adversely affected every day of the week and severely exploited because the legislation has not been changed.
The second matter relates to Dáil reform. Given the Taoiseach's reply yesterday morning, the Ceann Comhairle will realise that the Government has given him and the three Whips the wet back of its hand in respect of our proposals, calling them "piecemeal". Seemingly, the Government has appointed two people, the Chief Whip and the Green Party Whip, as a specialist group to consider Dáil reform. However, the statutory Dáil reform committee of the House, which consists of all parties, is meant to address this issue. I presume that the Fianna Fáil proposals will also be thrown out. There are also proposals from the Fine Gael, Labour and Sinn Féin parties and the Independents. The committee was at an advanced stage of putting the proposals together in a Dáil reform package, but all of its work has apparently been thrown out. The Chief Whip and the Green Party Whip will dictate the format to the rest of us. Their intention is to steamroll it through the House, but we will resist them strongly. Any such proposal will simply be in favour of the Government rather than the House.
Many people will be anxious for reform within the House. The process has taken a considerable period. All of the discussions will be brought to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, where a final decision that I cannot pre-empt will be made.
Will the Government involve the social partners?
Indeed they might be.
On management companies.
It is our intention to bring that matter before the Government next week with a view to finalising it.
On promised legislation from the Department of Health and Children, the Minister of which is seated beside the Tánaiste, 11 Bills are listed, five of which use the wording "not possible to indicate" to detail when they will be published. This is just short of 50%. Only one is to be published this spring and three are expected to be published in 2009, two of which were expected to be published in the previous term. Although the publication of another two Bills had been set at a specific date, it is now not possible to indicate when that will occur. The legislative performance of the Department of Health and Children and its Minister is ragged.
Why have the health (corporate bodies) Bill and the public health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, both of which were listed in the previous autumn legislative programme as being expected for publication this year, been marked as "not possible to indicate" in addition to the eligibility for health and personal social services Bill that I raised with the Taoiseach yesterday? The situation of the Department and promised legislation is serious and cannot be highlighted often enough if greater attention to it is to be encouraged. Why is it no longer possible to indicate when important promised legislation will be published?
It is a bit farcical for me to answer a question when the Deputy already knows the answer and has just stated it. We are not in a position to give a final date on the Bills' publication.
That was hardly an answer.
It is not possible to say.
I want to raise three related issues. In light of ongoing publicity around suicide cases and the fact that suicide rates are increasing, the Government must do everything it can about the matter. When will the mental health (amendment) Bill and the mental capacity Bill be published? Not unrelated, when will the sale of alcohol Bill be published?
In light of the fact that the Tánaiste announced the farm building grants scheme, will she ensure that funding will be made available?
No. I cannot allow this matter.
It is an important issue for many and is causing them all sorts of distress.
All of the legislation in question will be published this year.
The budget contained a proposal on merging the National Consumer Agency, NCA, and the Competition Authority, an important issue in the context of the euro-sterling price differential and shopping in the North versus the South. I understand that such a merger would require legislation. Has the legislation's preparation commenced and when is it likely to be before the House?
Yesterday, the Tánaiste was quoted by newspapers to the effect that she was considering legislation in the context of North-South pricing issues. Is this the case and, if so, would she care to tell the House what the legislation might be?
Preparations on legislation to amalgamate the NCA and the Competition Authority has commenced. It will be introduced in conjunction with the amendments to the Competition Act arising from the review of that legislation. I hope to finalise the Bill as quickly as possible. As the Deputy can appreciate, other issues must be addressed, particularly those appertaining to people. The Bill will not detract from the statutory role of either agency.
Regarding the other legislation, I indicated that my preferred option was to work with the retail trade. If we cannot achieve an outcome, legislation may need to be considered.
What sort of legislation will address the Competition Authority matter?
We have not reached that stage yet.
I would also be interested in the answer to that question. I am sure that we will revert to it, as I cannot imagine what legislation could be introduced.
Regarding the industrial relations (amendment) Bill, which is on the list, some 150,000 people have lost their jobs since the Tánaiste took up office. The framework document, which was not published yesterday, suggests that a further 120,000 people will lose their jobs by 2010. That is extremely optimistic in that it suggests 6,000 people per month will lose their jobs whereas currently 16,000 people per month are losing their jobs. Based on those figures, by 2010 a further 300,000 people will have lost their jobs and 600,000 people will be unemployed, which is 20% of the population. This is particularly relevant in terms of this Bill.
When will the Bill be brought before the House and will it deal with the issue of employment regulation orders in the hotel and catering industry? Many hotels, restaurants and cafés are closing as they have been unable to meet the terms of the employment regulation order. When will that legislation be introduced and when will this issue be addressed? Is the Tánaiste happy to see the entire tourism and catering industry laid to waste under her watch?
The legislation will be published this session.
We had a dignified gathering in the Mansion House last week to celebrate the 90th Anniversary of the First Dáil. It is appropriate that we express our appreciation to the Ceann Comhairle and his staff for making the necessary plans in that regard.
Are plans in place to mark the tenth anniversary of the take-over of the Labour Party by Democratic Left?
That issue is definitely not in order. I call Deputy Ciarán Lynch.
Or the first anniversary of Deputy Power's intention to step down as Minister of State.
Will Deputy Power throw a party and if so, will we be invited?
(Interruptions).
Deputy Power is preparing for a future career in the show business area.
A great deal of rehearsing went into that.
Yes. Will legislation be brought before the House in respect of the introduction of spending limits for this year's local elections? While there has been much comment from the Minister in this regard no legislation has yet been presented. Have proposals in regard to local election spending limits been brought before Cabinet? If not, is it intended such proposals will be brought before Cabinet in the near future given the local elections are only weeks away?
On the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, I have previously asked the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach on the Order of Business when this Bill will come before the House. The continuing response has been that there are legislative difficulties in regard to the sale of flats for local authority tenants and that the matter has been sent for legal examination to the Attorney General. Has the matter in respect of the sale of flats been resolved and when will the relevant legislation be brought before the Dáil?
As I understand it, the Electoral (Amendment) Bill is currently before the Seanad.
The Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2008 is currently before the Seanad. It is the Minister's intention to introduce spending limits and to bring proposals in that regard before the Government.
The other legislation to which the Deputy referred has been passed by the Seanad. It is now a matter for the Whips as to when it will come before this House.
The matter I wished to raise has been already raised by the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Power, who beat me to the draw.
Deputy Gilmore should not feel too guilty about it.
The Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill is listed for publication prior to the next session. This legislation seeks to support economic development by ensuring that the planning system supports targeted investment and infrastructure under the national development plan and to further modernise land zoning. County and city councils will shortly draw up their new development plans. Some of them have commenced already. It is important that legislation is in place before the commencement of the next rezoning of land.
Can the Tánaiste provide a specific timescale within which that legislation will be published?
It is hoped that legislation will be introduced this session.
In light of recent events pertaining to the governance of company law, will the Tánaiste expedite the introduction of the Company Law (Consolidation and Reform) Bill?
I wish I could. We are trying to expedite the matter and additional resources have been made available to my Department to facilitate that happening.
It has been Government policy for some time, officially at least, that ownership of assets in terms of the electricity transmission system be transferred from the ESB to EirGrid. When will legislation in this regard be introduced? We were told it would be introduced last year and are now being told it is expected some time in 2009. The relevance of this issue was again brought to light yesterday in terms of the State's hope of obtaining substantial subsidies from the European Commission in respect of the cost of upgrading our electricity grid and our interconnection with Britain.
Perhaps the Tánaiste will provide the House with an accurate indication of when that legislation is likely to be introduced.
It is the Minister's intention to introduce the legislation this year. Deputy Coveney will be aware an independent analysis is required and the Minister will shortly appoint the relevant person in this regard.
Yesterday the Taoiseach indicated that the arrangement of a Second Stage debate on the Employment Law Compliance Bill was a matter for the Whips. In so far as a meeting of the Whips has been held, will the Tánaiste say if such debate will take place during the current session?
That debate will take place next Thursday.
Thank you.