Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Feb 2009

Vol. 676 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 8, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Partnership and Co-operation Agreement between the European Communities and Turkmenistan; No. 9, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a proposal that section 17A of the Diseases of Animals Act 1966 shall continue in force for the period ending on 8 March 2010; No. 23, Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009 — Second Stage (resumed); and No. 10, Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009 — Financial Resolution.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted on the conclusion of No. 10; Nos. 8, 9 and 10 shall be decided without debate, and in the case of No. 10, it shall be moved on the conclusion of Second Stage of No. 23; and the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 23 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight. Private Members' business shall be No. 6, motion re banking system.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. Irrespective of what the Government is trying to agree, the proposal is simply unacceptable to Sinn Féin Deputies not only regarding its focus on financial emergency measures in the so-called public interest Bill, but in respect of all of what the Government is presenting today. Today's Order of Business neither reflects the important matters which should be addressed nor provides, as the next proposition will demonstrate, sufficient time or opportunities for all Members to participate.

Question, "That the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m.", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 8, 9 and 10 without debate agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 23 agreed to?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is not agreed.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Labour Party does not agree to the guillotining of Second Stage of this Bill at 10.30 p.m. This legislation, which is now called the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009, introduces the so-called levy. The proposal will permit a maximum of two speaking places for Labour Party Members, most of whom would like to contribute to the debate on Second Stage. That will not be possible under the proposed arrangements.

This weekend, 120,000 people took to the streets of Dublin in support of the proposals made by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. It is fair to say the protest was prompted by the measures provided for in this Bill. The matter is of considerable public interest, but the House will not do it justice by guillotining debate at 10.30 tonight. The Labour Party is opposed to that guillotine.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I also disagree with the proposition that the Bill be guillotined at 10.30 p.m. I strongly oppose the Bill in its entirety and believe the curtailment of the opportunity for elected Members to properly participate is absolutely irresponsible. This debate should not be guillotined and a full opportunity should be afforded to Members.

In the context of all that is happening today and in the lead-up to today's events outside this House, an opportunity should be provided by the Government to raise questions on recent developments. Members have questions to ask regarding Anglo Irish Bank, which is now in State ownership, but there is no provision for such questions on the Order Paper. Serious questions arise, some of which I touched on during Leaders' Questions, in regard to the role of former directors of Anglo Irish Bank continuing to serve on State bodies. Issues also arise regarding the ongoing Garda search of the business premises of Anglo Irish Bank.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The question arises of whether these searches will be extended to other business interests or, indeed, private property in the ownership of those under investigation. These are critical matters because we have seen historically situations which were poorly handled and those who were culpable——

An Ceann Comhairle

Only a brief intervention is allowed now.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——in regard to matters of major public importance were allowed to get off scot-free. That is not tolerable and it needs to be addressed today.

The Taoiseach

There is a clear need to improve the position of the public finances as a matter of urgency. The proposed pension related levy is necessary to help restore balance. It is the first of a series of measures that will have to be taken in our effort to ensure our economic survival and ability to compete. There is no doubt that it represents an imposition but the public service pay and pensions bill comprises more than one third of all public expenditure. There is simply no alternative to making savings in this area and we believe the fairest way to do so is the arrangement whereby those who earn most pay most.

The big problem we face is increased joblessness. People are losing their jobs in this recession, which is exacerbated by other problems such as difficult trading conditions in the UK. Many workers are losing their jobs altogether and some of them have private pension provisions which are being considerably reduced as a result of the pensions crisis. This is one aspect, although it is not the only response of the Government. The scale and magnitude of the problem is far greater than even this imposition could seek to address. I ask that the urgency of the situation be recognised by everyone so that we can send the right signal to international markets about our determination to put the public finances in order. This is the first, necessary, step in that regard.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 23 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 79; Níl, 69.

Tá

• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Andrews, Chris.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Aylward, Bobby.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Áine.
• Brady, Cyprian.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Browne, John.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Carey, Pat.
• Collins, Niall.
• Connick, Seán.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Michael.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Flynn, Beverley.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Healy-Rae, Jackie.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kennedy, Michael.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• Lowry, Michael.
• McDaid, James.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• Mansergh, Martin.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M.J.
• O’Brien, Darragh.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Hanlon, Rory.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Edward.
• O’Rourke, Mary.
• O’Sullivan, Christy.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Scanlon, Eamon.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• White, Mary Alexandra.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Barrett, Seán.
• Behan, Joe.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Carey, Joe.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Coonan, Noel J.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• D’Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Mahony, John.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Sherlock, Seán.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Upton, Mary.
• Varadkar, Leo.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Enda Kenny

What legal steps has the Taoiseach taken to ensure the public becomes aware of the names of the ten people who received loans from Anglo Irish Bank? Section 33 of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2003 allows for the disclosures of dealings between regulatory bodies——

An Ceann Comhairle

The difficulty is that this is not Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I appreciate that.

An Ceann Comhairle

They are over for today and will be on again in the morning.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I am giving details of the legislation and I will conclude shortly. The legislation refers to the necessity of protecting consumers of financial services. As I pointed out previously, while the names are now incidental to the central problem——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The fact is that confidentiality does not override the public good. In respect of section 33 of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2003——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. That is not promised legislation, it is legislation that is already in place.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Does the Taoiseach agree this section could be used in the public interest for that purpose?

An Ceann Comhairle

I rule that out of order. Leaders' Questions are over for today.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Is the Ceann Comhairle ruling that out of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no choice.

Deputy Enda Kenny

On what grounds is it ruled out of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

On the basis that it is not in order.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Of course it is in order.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I am asking the Taoiseach about a matter of legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may ask about legislation if he wishes, but he may not ask questions more appropriate to Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I refer to section 33 of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Act 2003. Does the Taoiseach intend to invoke section 33 of that in the public interest and the public good?

An Ceann Comhairle

The difficulty with the Order of Business is that it relates to promised legislation not legislation already enacted. That is the problem. If the Taoiseach wishes to assist that is fine, but I cannot allow it.

Deputy Denis Naughten

What about secondary legislation?

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is a shame.

An Ceann Comhairle

I can only do my job in accordance with Standing Orders. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Two weeks ago the House approved a proposal from the Government to recapitalise Bank of Ireland and Allied Irish Bank. The legislation to give effect to the means for the recapitalisation is the national pensions reserve fund (amendment) Bill. Will the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill will be presented to the House?

The Taoiseach

I understand that could be taken next week.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When will it be published?

The Taoiseach

Later this week.

Deputy Denis Naughten

When will the promised social welfare legislation dealing with lone parent and other low income families be published? The Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, has seen a 30% increase in the number of clients presenting. It has sought an alternative to the legal process for dispute resolution relating to bills and so forth. Will the Taoiseach indicate when this will be provided for in legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into the content of it now.

Deputy Denis Naughten

No. 16 on the Order Paper is a motion re report of the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny on the provision of food information to consumers. Will we have an opportunity to discuss that in the House and to discuss the abuse of the white meat labelling laws in the country?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss it now.

The Taoiseach

The second matter is a matter for the Whips. In respect of the first piece of legislation to which the Deputy referred, I do not believe it is possible to indicate a date at this point.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Will it be this year or next year?

The Taoiseach

I cannot indicate a date.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are now likely to face an unprecedented crisis, given all the crises that have already occurred within the health services, with a signal shortfall of some €1 billion in the 2009 provision for the HSE.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Government accommodate scrutiny within the Chamber of any revised budget or service plan revision for the delivery of health services?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is because we are the body that vote for the funding for the health budget every year.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have decided it is not in order. That is why I am here. I rule it out of order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

There is now a critical shortfall——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is ruled out of order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Government allow for proper scrutiny——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McManus is next.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Government allow for the proper scrutiny of any amended service plan or budget reduction?

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot discuss that now.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With respect, this is valid.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, it is not in order.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

One of our primary responsibilities as elected representatives is——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McManus is next.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——to provide for the essential services for the people.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Health matters must be the first priority.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

We must have a debate on the health services and the effects of the shortfall.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips. I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to resume his seat or I will have to ask him to leave the House. That is the end of the matter.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

We must have a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the end of the matter. I call Deputy McManus.

Deputy Liz McManus

It is worth noting that at long last the Minister has announced a new RTE authority to fill a vacuum that has lasted for several months. This is an unusual request but it relates to legislation and we live in extraordinary times. Is it possible that the Broadcasting Bill could be reviewed before its completion because it sets out to establish a new quango with all the attendant apparatus and costs?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot consider that now. We may only ask when legislation is due.

Deputy Liz McManus

Will the Taoiseach consider the alternative, which is to have one regulator, including ComReg——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of it now. The Deputy can raise the matter during the discussion on the legislation.

Deputy Liz McManus

——and the broadcasting regulator?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Taoiseach indicate when the Broadcasting Bill is due?

Deputy Liz McManus

This would enable us to be cost effective and to deal with the changes in technologies which we face.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal with that now.

Deputy Liz McManus

An bord snip nua is examining ways to reduce the costs of government.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is simply going into full flow now and it is not on.

Deputy Liz McManus

Will the Taoiseach reconsider the whole issue of the Broadcasting Bill in light of the circumstances in which we now find ourselves?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Taoiseach to reply on the Broadcasting Bill.

The Taoiseach

I understand that matter is on Report Stage, an advanced Stage of enactment in the House. If there are amendments which the Deputy wishes to put down and if she wishes to pursue a point, I am sure that opportunity can be afforded on that occasion.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle regularly states he is bound by the rules as laid down by the Members.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is correct.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Ceann Comhairle is also bound by precedent and previous decisions made by the Chair and his predecessors. There is a great deal of precedent for allowing a Member to request a debate on a particularly pressing issue. The only time the Ceann Comhairle seems to allow it is if the leaders of the main parties raise a matter. In defence of Deputy Ó Caoláin and my colleague, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, there are precedents. The Ceann Comhairle is fully empowered to allow the requests, or at least for the Taoiseach to indicate that he will allow a debate on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going to enter into an argument with the Deputy. As a Whip, he knows as well as anyone that the answer to the question is that it is a matter for the Whips.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

There is a precedent.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I realise the Government is preoccupied with other pressing issues but will the Taoiseach indicate the progress relating to the introduction of management companies legislation, which has been discussed previously? The need for such legislation grows on a daily basis. When does the Government propose to introduce the Bill that will vindicate the Government's better regulation agenda? It might be appropriate to focus on that now. Surely in view of recent experiences that must be a priority. It is No. 60 on the Government legislative programme.

Shootings continue, as the Ceann Comhairle knows.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know that.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

They continue daily even in sensitive places.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy need not mind about that. He must ask about legislation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

In order to make some attempt to combat the ongoing spate of violent crime——

An Ceann Comhairle

No preliminaries are necessary.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

No prisoners?

An Ceann Comhairle

No preliminaries.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The Ceann Comhairle is showing zero tolerance.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The time is long past for that. The extradition Bill might make some dent in the mobility of criminals and the criminal element. When, if ever, will it be brought into the House?

The Taoiseach

The third Bill is due later this year. The Bill to deal with the better regulation agenda is also perhaps due later this year although the party opposite has criticised us for too much regulation not too little.

Deputy James Reilly

That sounds like Seán FitzPatrick.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is not the experience of the party over there.

The Taoiseach

The Fine Gael view has been that regulation has been far too heavy.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The Government is happy to regulate the small people but it will not go after big ones.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Varadkar's spokesperson has spoken.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

The Government will regulate a newsagent but not a bank——

An Ceann Comhairle

On the legislation.

The Taoiseach

Some people have a facility to upset everyone in the House equally no matter what side of the House they are on, which is a very good characteristic.

Deputy James Reilly

That is all about perception.

The Taoiseach

I hope more of the Opposition Deputies develop it, by the way.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Will the Taoiseach say when it is intended to introduce that legislation?

The Taoiseach

In respect of the first Bill it is due in the next session.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

When will he ever introduce it? Never. Never. Does he have to wait until the present ruckus dies down?

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

When the Taoiseach was Minister for Health and Children he took a particular interest in the area of disability. I see the Minister of State with special responsibility for disability issues is here. In light of the removal of children from primary school because they do not have special needs assistance, when will the Government lift the suspension of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act?

The Taoiseach

I will have to come back to the Deputy to answer that question.

The real issue is to make sure that we maintain the benefits up to the years we are talking about at the moment before extending it.

Deputy James Reilly

We cannot look forward to movement on the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act with any degree of alacrity because special needs assistants have been removed from the system.

When will legislation be brought forward to amend the Competition Act as it relates to equity in the Irish Pharmaceutical Union and others, as previously mentioned in the House? Will it be done?

The Taoiseach

I think the Deputy is referring to the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO.

Deputy James Reilly

The IMO might be involved as might the Irish Dental Association.

The Taoiseach

The commitment was in respect of the IMO issue.

Deputy James Reilly

The commitment was in respect of this House.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Section 4 of the Competition Act. That was the labour Bill.

The Taoiseach

We were prepared to look into that matter in good faith to see if there was a way around that but it was not extended to others.

Deputy James Reilly

Does that mean there is no legislation promised?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, there is not.

The Taoiseach

The statement at the time would indicate to the Deputy what the commitment was.

Deputy James Reilly

What?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Not for the first time Deputy McManus's comments are music to my ears. The Employment Law Compliance Bill is on Second Stage and the Taoiseach is aware that the Committee of Public Accounts recently published a report on the board of FÁS recommending that it be slimmed down and the automatic right of employees' and employers' representatives to representation at board level be removed. Following the scandal in FÁS and the high quality of the committee's all-party report, would the Taoiseach agree to reconsider that Bill and remove from it the provision to establish a NERA board identical in size and composition to the board of FÁS?

The Taoiseach

That Bill is on Second Stage. A matter of prolonged discussions within social partnership was the need to ensure that we have a proportionate and practical response in these areas. One cannot attribute the failures in FÁS, brought forward primarily by Dáil scrutiny, to the fact that there were employee representatives on the board. That is not the reason for the problem.

Deputy Michael Creed

To what does the Taoiseach attribute it?

The Taoiseach

I certainly do not attribute it to that. That is a poor reflection on the many employee representatives who conscientiously worked hard on that board. As a former Minister with responsibility for labour affairs I know that, and that reflects badly, if unintentionally, on people who are trying to ensure that FÁS policies have regard to that perspective.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Many apartment owners may have difficulty paying their management fees and the managing agents will probably sue them for the fees and there will be court cases. If the National Property Services Regulatory Authority was given legal powers under the property services (regulatory) Bill, it could mediate on this issue. The office is open and the staff are paid, and so on. When is it proposed to introduce that Bill?

The Taoiseach

I understand that it is expected in this session which will give the Deputy an opportunity to state her views.

To complete my response to Deputy Varadkar's question, the composition of the board is a matter of deciding on the best and most efficient way of doing board business. One should not attribute any recent systems failures to the personnel outlined in his question. That is an unfair representation.