Vol. 701 No. 2
1 Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the five gangland gun murders in the first three weeks of 2010; his further views on the effectiveness of anti-gangland legislation introduced in 2009; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5800/10]
I deplore the recent killings. They are further evidence of the callous disregard for human life and community safety shown by members of criminal gangs. The Garda Síochána is carrying out intensive investigations of all these killings and has made good progress in respect of a number of them. The Garda Commissioner has kept me briefed on these events.
In setting the policing priorities for the Garda Síochána in 2010, I have asked the Garda Commissioner to continue the focus of the force on serious crime, in particular organised crime. This priority is reflected in the Garda policing plan for this year which has just been published.
It has to be accepted that, as is the case in every jurisdiction, there can be considerable difficulties for police investigators in obtaining evidence relating to gangland murders. Associates of a victim of a gangland killing are often criminals themselves and do not co-operate with Garda investigations. They frequently fail to co-operate even when they themselves are the victims of violence. There is often no connection or personal association between the victim and the perpetrator. Witnesses may be also subject to high levels of intimidation to influence them not to come forward.
It was against this background that last year I introduced a series of strong but necessary anti-gangland legislative measures, in particular, the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Act and the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act. I have consistently made it clear that it will inevitably take time for the full effects of that legislation to become clear. The Garda Commissioner has assured me that the Garda Síochána has been making full use of the legislation since it was enacted in order to build up criminal cases against gangland figures. The Garda Síochána is painstakingly working to gather evidence that will be sufficient to enable the Director of Public Prosecutions independently to initiate prosecutions of people relating to gangland activities. A number of Garda investigation files have been already submitted to the DPP. I am confident that as the evidence accumulates against individuals under these pieces of legislation, successful prosecutions will be taken.
I revert to matters which were debated in the past couple of days under the Fine Gael Private Members' motion. A number of questions were put to the Minister in the course of that debate which remain unanswered. How many defendants have appeared in the Special Criminal Court since he rushed through the important legislation to which he refers? I ask that question against the background of there being 32 murders, 114 threats of murder, 65 kidnappings, some of them vicious, 470 robberies of institutions and 1,986 instances or crimes involving the possession of drugs for sale or supply in this State since the enactment of the legislation. Having regard to those thousands of crimes committed since last July, will the Minister say how many people appeared before the Special Criminal Court and how many were successfully convicted by that court?
Either Deputy Flanagan is speaking with a very large tongue in his cheek or he clearly does not understand how prosecutions are gathered. It shows an incredible lack of understanding on his part of how prosecutions are put together, given that those two pieces of legislation were enacted only last July. We are not dealing with ordinary, run of the mill crime but rather with very significant incidents and significant pieces of legislation where there is an absolute requirement, given——
I take it the answer is zero.
——all the hoo-ha that was created by people like Deputy Flanagan and others on that side of the House as to whether this was ground-breaking legislation, and I maintained it was not. It takes time for the evidence to be accumulated under the provisions of any new legislation.
That is not what the Minister told the papers at the time.
I did not say anything, and Deputy Rabbitte continuously tries to twist things——
This is Deputy Flanagan's priority question.
That is a zero.
——and say that, and he is patently wrong.
Please allow the Minister answer Deputy Flanagan's question.
The Minister has now finished.
I have to listen to what I regard as claptrap from the people opposite who know right well that I do not prosecute——
The Minister is filibustering. He has no answer. Not one person has been convicted.
——nor do I have——
Not one person has been convicted. The Special Criminal Court has not been commissioned on one occasion——
Please Deputy, I will call you again if I have time, if the time does not run out.
The Deputy, particularly——
The Minister should tell the truth.
——as he has a legal background, should understand that I have absolutely no say in which cases can or cannot be brought under this legislation.
He had last July.
As I said in my reply, I understand from the Garda Commissioner that under the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act, a number of files have been already referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions for decision.
The Minister says he has no say. Will he confirm that neither has he a say in the matter of the appointment of the hundreds of vacancies, almost 800, that have occurred in the Garda Síochána since his Government introduced the budgetary policies of last year? In the context of his recent announcements, who is currently the chief superintendent heading up the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation? I also ask him to name the chief superintendent in charge of the special detective unit.
The Deputy should ask a specific question.
It is a specific question for which I require a specific answer, having regard to press releases and the spin in which the Minister has engaged up to very recently, on the matter of the filling of Garda vacancies. Where are they and who are they?
There has been no spinning with regard to the issue of the filling of the vacancies because the Government just last week made a decision, on foot of the consent of the Minister for Finance, to release 170 promotions. The Deputy may have seen the publicity. Despite the fact he comes in here and says the Minister has the power to fill these vacancies, the Minister, personally, does not have the power to fill the vacancies in the Garda Síochána——
The Minister is the man with the purse strings.
——and that is entirely a matter, under the 2005 legislation, for the Garda Commissioner but he has the power and will fill those vacancies very shortly. All that nonsense and spin from the Deputy and his misleading of people by implying this is evidence of the Government not doing its job, I can assure the Deputy and the general public——
I take it the answer is "No" again.
I call Deputy Pat Rabbitte.
——that the current Garda force is the best facilitated and the best resourced in the history of the State.
Zero again. I thank the Minister. He has confirmed——
I confirmed what the Deputy already knows.
If I had time for further supplementary questions——
Please, if both sides of the House would have regard to the Chair, we might get through this Question Time.
2 Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the recent report of An Garda Síochána Inspectorate on resource allocation; if he will implement the recommendations contained in this report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5804/10]
The Garda Síochána Inspectorate was established under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and forms a key part of the arrangements which the Government has put in place to support the Garda Síochána in pursuing best policing practice across the range of its functions. This report was mandated by my predecessor and I welcome its findings. It is the sixth such report and its focus is on the allocation of Garda resources.
The best international police forces undergo a continual process of development and improvement and the Garda Síochána has engaged in a major programme of reform in recent years including in the use of technology. The reports of the Garda Síochána Inspectorate are an important part of that process and have been very supportive of the reforms underway in the force. As part of that ongoing process, the Garda Commissioner and his management team have enthusiastically implemented the majority of recommendations contained in the previous inspectorate reports and will continue to do so. Progress in implementing the recommendations is updated regularly on the websites of both the force and the inspectorate.
This report contains many positive recommendations on how the fluctuating demand for policing services can be better measured and how Garda resources can be efficiently deployed to meet that demand. Key to this will be the use of technology, such as command and control, computer-aided dispatch, and human resource, HR, systems and the introduction of new and more effective roster systems. The aim is to maximise the number of frontline gardaí in the right place at the right time, building on the significant investment recently made in Garda technology and resources.
These are significant and welcome recommendations which should be of significant assistance to the Garda Commissioner and his team as they build on recent progress in making maximum use of resources. Garda management already has a series of well-developed proposals for many of the key initiatives envisaged in the report, such as a new command and control system, a new computer-aided despatch system and a new human resource management system. This ambitious programme builds on the recent and unprecedented investment in Garda technology which has seen the new national digital radio service being rolled out across the force, a new automated fingerprint and ballistics identification system, a new automated number plate recognition system and significant enhancements to the Pulse system. In all, investment in Garda ICT programmes is currently running at approximately €70 million per year and in this coming year, it is estimated to be more than €80 million.
I welcome the report and will fully support the Garda Commissioner as he continues to implement and expand a wide-ranging programme of reform which effectively addresses the issues identified in it.
Does the Minister agree this is a very disturbing report on the operational condition of the Garda Síochána? It paints a picture, albeit in polite language, of a police force as it might have operated in 1950s Ireland in terms of management techniques, deployment of manpower, absence of technology, rostering systems, the failure of the civilianisation effort and so on. Law-abiding citizens must be horrified at what is revealed in this report by the Garda inspectorate. What is the Minister's response to the statement by the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors that most Garda stations do not even have e-mail facilities? Does the Minister agree with the 27 recommendations in this report? If so, will he indicate a timeframe for their implementation?
In regard to the Deputy's question on e-mail capabilities, Internet facilities are available at 347 network locations within the Garda Síochána. Moreover, internal e-mail facilities are provided to all ranks of the force via the PULSE environment. As I said, there has been a dramatic increase in the degree of usage of information and communications technologies by gardaí, with investment running at €70 million per year and more than €80 million expected to be invested in 2010. Last year, as part of this investment, €23 million was expended on the national digital radio system and €1.1 million on the automated fingerprinting system.
I do not agree with Deputy Rabbitte that the report in question points to the Garda as a force embedded in the 1950s. That is not so. The Government and the Oireachtas must be given credit for putting in place, in 2005, the infrastructure to ensure the Garda could be benchmarked against best international practice. That is what this report is about. There will always be improvements to implement and scope for the allocation of additional resources. When I became Minister in this Department just under two years ago, I made it one of my primary objectives that priority be given to investment in the Garda, in prisons and in the criminal justice system, regardless of what else was happening with the Department's budget. I stand on my record in that regard. The Estimates for this year and last indicate an investment in the Garda Síochána of €1.6 billion, which is a record.
I do not ask this question in any spirit of confrontation. The view I have outlined is that of the Garda inspectorate, as set out in this serious review, and there is no point in trying to whitewash it. The Minister should not try to dodge the question about how many Garda stations have e-mail by referring to network connections.
I draw the Minister's attention to the number of gardaí who are tied up in duties that could be done by civilians. The civilianisation programme has been used only to recruit additional civilians, not to release gardaí from administrative duties to the front line of fighting crime. The Minister says he has done X and Y since assuming office. Let us look at an example of what he has done. He has issued instructions regarding the requirement on gardaí to take a long-hand note of interviews even though they are now electronically conducted, but no progress has been made on this matter. The Minister tells me that a pilot programme is at an advantaged stage but, because of the complexities involved, it is likely that any new system will take some time to complete and, therefore, a definitive timeframe cannot be given. What can be so complicated about taking the necessary action to ensure valuable Garda time is no longer wasted in taking long-hand notes of electronically recorded interviews? What does it take to bring modern management procedures to bear on the operation of the Garda Síochána?
The practice of taking handwritten notes while also having the interviews videotaped is part of the preparation for bringing a prosecution to court. My Department and the Garda Síochána are working with the Director of Public Prosecutions on the requirements regarding the type of evidence that is acceptable in a prosecution. Even though every interview is videotaped, it is still important, in order to present evidence in court, to have a written synopsis of a witness's statement. On the basis of the entitlement of every person to a fair trial, the Garda must err on the side of caution in terms of how a case is presented. That is done on the basis of the requirements and directions of the DPP.
They have been released from the requirement to take long-hand notes.
Deputy Rabbitte used the word "whitewash" in reference to this report. I am certainly not engaged in any whitewash. I very much welcome this report which is an indicator of the excellent work being done by the inspectorate in endeavouring to benchmark the Garda progressively as it implements changes in keeping with best international practice. To be fair to the Garda Commissioner and his management, the vast majority of the recommendations previously made by the inspectorate have already been implemented. I expect the same to happen in this instance.
The Minister has no role in it. It is a matter for the Garda Commissioner.
3 Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the dramatic decrease in rape cases which came before the Central Criminal Court in 2009, particularly in the context of an increase in rapes in the most recent figures of the Central Statistics Office; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5801/10]
Statistics published by the Central Statistics Office show that the number of recorded cases of rape increased by 10.2% in 2009 compared to 2008, whereas in 2008 they decreased by 2.8% and in 2007 by 4.1%. With regard to the number of rape and sexual assault cases before the courts, they decreased by 37.2% in 2009, whereas in 2008 they increased by 6.8% and in 2007 by 25.9%. This shows that in any year, there is no relationship between the number of cases recorded and the number of cases before the courts. There is inevitably a time lag between the recording of a complaint of rape and the appearance of the case in the courts, as a result of the investigation and detection process, the submission of an investigation file to the DPP and the preparation of the book of evidence.
I welcome the apparent increased willingness of complainants to report rape and other sexual offences and the changes in society, the law and public administration which have contributed to that trend. Changes that have been made to the legal system in this area include providing separate legal representation for the complainant, with the aim of allaying concerns he or she may have without breaching the fundamental principle of an accused's right to a fair trial. However, despite such positive developments, there remains a high attrition rate in rape cases, and a large number of cases reported to the Garda Síochána do not reach the courts for a variety of reasons.
The Government's commitment to tackling sexual violence is reflected in the establishment in June 2007 within my Department of Cosc, the national office for the prevention of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Cosc is currently developing a national strategy on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence for the five-year period from 2010 to 2014. This strategy will draw on the broad consultation that has taken place with interested persons and organisations. Several published studies relating to attrition in rape cases are being carefully examined in this context. The strategy is close to completion and will be considered by Government shortly.
I welcome the establishment of Cosc but there remain matters of some significance to consider. It is disturbing that while incidences of reporting of rape are increasing substantially year on year, the number of cases being prosecuted in courts has fallen dramatically. Is the Minister aware of a recent report, undertaken by Rape Crisis Network Ireland, which highlights deficiencies that require addressing? Does he agree that there is a need for the Garda Síochána to engage in specialist training to deal with complainants? There appears to be evidence that on occasion, the Garda is second-guessing the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions on the matter of whether a victim wishes to proceed with a case. Can I ask the Minister to take steps to ensure there is a high degree of positive relationship and contact between the Garda, on behalf of the State, and complainants prior to cases coming to court?
I thank the Deputy for his remarks about Cosc. Since its establishment, Cosc has spent approximately €280,000 on an awareness campaign. It encourages and liaises with complainants and non-governmental organisations in this area. Europe-wide research on attrition rates shows that Ireland's reporting rate ranked in the middle of the range. The research found that Ireland is similar to England, Wales, Scotland and Sweden, in the sense that most attrition takes place in the early and middle stages of the investigation. That happens for a number of reasons. If non-governmental organisations, including Rape Crisis Network Ireland and others, wish to make suggestions and recommendations, they will be examined in the context of any legislative or policy change that may be necessary. It is important to emphasise that while there may be fluctuations in rape convictions, or in rape cases coming before the courts, in some instances offenders are charged with sexual offences other than rape.
I thank the Minister for the invitation to submit further recommendations. I ask him to examine legislative changes along the lines of the changes made in Britain in recent times, with particular reference to evidence. The real problem with the question of admissibility of evidence in rape cases is that it can undermine the criminal justice system. I refer specifically to evidence of the sexual history of the complainant. In addition, complainants are bound by law to make a complaint at the first reasonable opportunity. We need to reflect closely on those aspects of the question of admissibility of evidence that are giving rise to concern and, in many ways, are responsible for this country's very low conviction rate. I ask the Minister to examine the changes that have been made in Britain and to report back to this House on the matter within six months.
We constantly examine changes in the laws of other jurisdictions, but we do not follow them slavishly.
It is obvious that the Minister has not examined the laws in New Zealand.
We are keen to reflect on the best international practice. A decision on whether a complainant's previous history should be opened up in court, or is relevant to the case in question, is best left to the trial judge, in the absence of the jury. The exclusion or inclusion of such evidence is fraught with difficulties. I think the current practice should continue. It is obvious that we will continue to consider what is happening in other jurisdictions, and perhaps learn from the mistakes that have been made in this respect.
4 Deputy Charles Flanagan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the steps he will take to address the significant backlog in the area of the Garda vetting, with particular reference to teachers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5802/10]
The Garda central vetting unit provides employment vetting for a large number of organisations that are registered with the Garda for this purpose and employ people in a full-time, part-time, voluntary or training capacity to work with children and/or vulnerable adults. The Teaching Council is registered with the unit to submit vetting applications in respect of new teachers. I am informed by the Garda authorities that all applications received from the Teaching Council in respect of new teachers are processed in accordance with the unit's standard operating procedures. The results in respect of each applicant are disclosed to the registered organisation. In line with the framework of the implementation group on Garda vetting, in which the various stakeholders are brought together, consultations are taking place with the relevant education stakeholders on how best to introduce the vetting of existing teachers, which is expected to commence later this year. The vetting of a body of employees of the size of the cohort of existing teachers would present a challenge to any system. The Garda authorities will maximise the resources at their disposal in managing this development.
I cannot accept the Deputy's contention that there is a significant backlog in the vetting process. The current average processing time for valid vetting applications received at the vetting unit is approximately six weeks. This processing time fluctuates during the year due to seasonal demands, when the volume of applications received from certain sectors, including the education sector, can increase. The time required to process a individual vetting application can be longer if clarification is required from the registered organisation as to the details provided, or if other inquiries need to be made. The strategic expansion of the Garda vetting service is taking place by means of a phased roll-out to an increasing number of organisations in the child and vulnerable adult care sectors. This target group is the clear policy priority. It is necessary to phase the expansion of vetting to prevent an unmanageable surge in vetting application numbers, which would likely lead to an administrative logjam. This expansion will continue until vetting is provided for all personnel working in a full-time, part-time or voluntary capacity with children or vulnerable adults.
Can I express disappointment with the Minister's reply, which seems to fly in the face of the facts as far as the vetting unit is concerned? I compliment those involved in the unit, in so far as their resources allow or facilitate them to undertake the duties they are statutorily required to undertake. Will the Minister comment on a recent report which suggested that up to 40,000 teachers are awaiting vetting, but cannot receive their vetting clearance because of inadequacies in the system? It is entirely unsustainable and intolerable in the context of the requirement for vetting. How can his Department stand over the reality that it will take up to four years to clear the backlog under the current regime?
As I explained earlier, discussions on the existing cohort of teachers are ongoing. All new teachers are vetted within a relatively short space of time. I am informed that the current average processing time, based on the figures for the last couple of months, is between four and five weeks. That is in contrast with an average processing time of six weeks in 2009. The issues with the existing cohort of teachers will be dealt with on a phased basis.
It will take up to five years.
Some 137,000 applications were received in 2006, with an average processing time of between five and six weeks. Some 218,000 applications were received in 2008, with an average processing time of between four and five weeks. Some 246,000 applications were received in 2009. Approximately 18,000 organisations receive vetting services for employment purposes. There is a massive involvement in the vetting process. The vetting unit has a total staffing complement of 78, the vast majority of whom are civilians. One Garda superintendent and five Garda sergeants are attached to the unit — the rest of its staff are civilians. The dramatic growth of this area is demonstrated by the increase in the staff complement over the last three years, from 13 in 2006 to 78 at present.
The difficulty is that the Minister has not addressed the question of how he will meet the significant backlog. He has expressed some surprise about how busy the vetting unit is, but that was always going to be the case in light of its responsibilities. I would like to know why the backlog is so stark. There are people emigrating from this country on a daily basis. Nurses who cannot get jobs in this country, as a result of current Government policy, cannot take up the employment they are being offered outside his jurisdiction because they do not have vetting certificates from Thurles. Is this an information technology problem? Is it a personnel problem? Is it a resource problem? I asked the Minister to outline the steps he proposes to take to address the backlog. He spoke about the backlog and stated it would take some time. By my reckoning, it would take up to five years to deal with the teachers' cohort alone. Is the Minister suggesting that he does not intend to take any steps?
I did not use the word "backlog" at all.
I asked the Minister about the backlog in the question.
As far as my Department and I are concerned, there is no backlog.
The Minister is avoiding the question.
Allow the Minister to reply.
I accept there is an issue in respect of how to deal with the cohort of existing teachers in the system. As I stated in my first reply, to which the Deputy obviously did not listen, in respect of consultation with the various stakeholders on the implementation group on Garda vetting, consultations are taking place with the relevant educational stakeholders as to how to best introduce the vetting of existing teachers. This will be done in such a way that it will not lead to a completely unmanageable situation whereby a massive backlog would be created. It will be done on a phased basis. I again revert to the figures, which demonstrate that within just three years, the figures have risen from 137,000 applications dealt with to 246,000 such applications.
That was always going to happen.
In effect, this constitutes a doubling within a short space of time without any backlog.
That is not news. I refer to proper planning.
Consequently, I have no doubt but that the cohort of existing teachers will be dealt with easily over the next year or so.
5 Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the new immigration regime for full-time non-European Economic Area students will come into effect; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5803/10]
As the Deputy is aware, in September last year I published a consultation paper on a proposed new immigration regime for full-time non-EEA students. The consultation paper was prepared, in consultation with the relevant key Departments, following a review by my own Department of the operation of the current student regime. That review had been undertaken having regard to the need to ensure greater coherence in the way we deal with non-EEA students within our immigration system and the fact that it was generally accepted that there was a need for greater regulation in the student area.
As I have stated previously, the Government recognises that international education is a vital industry with significant growth potential and is committed to enhancing Ireland's potential in this area. The immigration regime for students is a key element in this strategy through providing a visibly strong regulatory environment that safeguards against potential abuses of the system, thereby ensuring that Ireland's reputation as a quality destination for international students is maintained. At the same time, looking at the bigger immigration picture, it is self-evident that what we do in one area cannot undermine one of the core principles of any immigration system, that is, the State must be satisfied that persons coming to Ireland do so for a genuine purpose and comply with the immigration conditions of their stay.
This project has a very strong cross-departmental dimension and what is being done in respect of immigration dovetails with initiatives announced by my colleague, the Minister for Education and Science, in the area of quality assurance, rationalisation of accreditation structures and marketing of the Irish educational product abroad. The two Departments have been working very closely together on this matter. My Department is also engaged with the industry and is receptive to any realistic proposals that facilitate the development of the industry without compromising our immigration system.
Underlying the approach adopted in the consultation paper was a realisation that the current "one size fits all" regime for students no longer is appropriate and, therefore, a more flexible and differentiated system is being proposed. The paper also acknowledges the reality that for most non-EEA nationals, the only real avenue to come to Ireland for low-skilled or casual work is as a registered student, thereby creating a significant incentive for the student route to be a channel for economic migration. This is a challenge for immigration systems worldwide.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
In fact it is the root cause of most of the problems experienced in managing student immigration.
The consultation paper contained a set of draft proposals for the reform of the student sector and invited submissions on those proposals by 9 October 2009. In summary, the key proposals include a cap on the length of time a person can spend in Ireland as a student, the targeting of certain incentives to identified sectors within the student immigration stream, the introduction of a tighter inspection regime and possible changes to the visa regime. There was an excellent response from the public during the consultation period with 100 submissions received. These are being reviewed by an interdepartmental committee on student immigration. The committee is chaired by my Department and comprises representatives from other key Departments including the Departments of Education and Science, Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Foreign Affairs, Arts, Sport and Tourism, Finance, the Taoiseach and others.
The work of the committee is ongoing and further meetings are scheduled to take place this month. However, it is expected that the committee will present its report and recommendations to me in the next few weeks. The issue will ultimately be submitted to Government.
I am disappointed that the Minister did not answer my question, which asked when the new regime would be introduced. It obviously has not been introduced yet. Is it not the case that according to the document the Minister published last September, the new scheme was to be introduced from 1 January 2010? Where is that new scheme and when will it be implemented? Does the Minister agree that with a small amount of effort and commitment in this area on the part of the various Departments, an additional €1 billion in badly-needed capital could be brought into this country, thereby creating approximately 6,000 badly-needed new jobs? When will the new regime be put in place? Is the Minister satisfied with the current position in which there is such a dramatic inconsistency between the level of refusal encountered in this jurisdiction and that which obtains across the water in the United Kingdom?
Had I been allowed to answer the question fully, I would have been able to tell the Deputy that——
It is not a question of allowing the Minister.
It is not a Second Stage speech; it is a question.
Standing Orders provides for two minutes.
There is a consultation paper——
It is important that I should say to the Minister, and I say this to all Ministers, that unless Standing Orders are changed, it would be very helpful were he to front-load the answer.
That would be the end of civilisation as one knows it.
I would be satisfied were I to receive an answer.
Members might get answers that way.
The Minister could front-load it, back-load it or load it any way.
Ministers often are accused of not giving answers to the questions and I was trying to be as complete in my reply as possible.
It was a simple question.
It is very difficult when the Chair keeps cutting one off in midstream. However, I will do my best to impart information.
Ulysses was more brief.
As the Minister is aware, the Chair cuts no one off. It merely applies the rules.
As Deputy Rabbitte knows, as always, I am very much into openness and transparency.
Ulysses is simpler.
Anyway, I had intended to state that a consultation process took place during which 100 submissions were received. It is being considered by an interdepartmental committee on student immigration that is chaired by my Department. It is to be hoped that the committee will report fairly soon and that the matter will be brought to the Government in the not too distant future. I absolutely agree with the Deputy that there is great merit in seeking international business by bringing in people from abroad and educating them in Ireland, provided it is done in the context of ensuring that our immigration system is absolutely sacrosanct.
Unfortunately, there have been cases in which this has been abused and I can provide Members with some information in this respect. On inspection some time ago, a college in Dublin 8 had no desks, whiteboards, blackboards, books or papers. The so-called principal was unwilling to open the doors of the college, which effectively was being used as residential accommodation. At another college in Cork that was visited, none of the 70 so-called students who were registered was in attendance. The excuse given was that the students were off on their mid-term break. This site was visited again during the following month, when only eight students out of 59 were in attendance. A similar occurrence took place at a college which has branches in Dublin 2 and Dublin 9. When it was visited by the investigation unit, no students were in attendance——
Go raibh maith agat. I will allow a supplementary question from Deputy Naughten.
——which was ascribed to bad weather. The institution was visited the following month and no further students were in attendance that day.
If the Minister would please——
As Members can see from this anecdotal evidence, this process is open to abuse——
Please.
——and the Government must be absolutely sure that those students who are coming in——
Before——
——are legitimately here for study and learning purposes.
Before I call Deputy Naughten, I would be obliged if the Minister, as well as anyone else, would have some regard to the Chair.
I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
Thank you.
I acknowledge fully the Minister's point and we must have in place a watertight system. Undoubtedly, there are difficulties with the current system both in respect of its rigidity and the loopholes it contains. The sooner we put in place a new scheme, the better for all concerned and for those who are involved in the legitimate industry. The consultation document is silent on the issue of those in possession of student visas working in this jurisdiction. In September 2008, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Billy Kelleher, stated that he was reviewing this issue. As 18 months have passed since then and in light of the co-ordination that now is in place, can the Minister comment on what plans exist in respect of the review of the working conditions on such student visas?
This undoubtedly is an issue that is being considered by the committee and obviously I will await the committee's consideration, as well as the representations and submissions that have been made. However, it is an issue in that it is being used to an extent by some as an opportunity to come here as economic migrants. Lest anyone outside the Chamber thinks this is a major cohort, I wish to emphasise it is estimated that this only pertains to 10,000 to 11,000 people. While some educational interests suggest that 200,000 students come to Ireland for educational purposes, I am unsure whether that figure is correct. Undoubtedly, however, the vast majority of students who do so are not from non-EEA countries but in the main are from the European Union and do not require a visa at all.
