Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Jul 2010

Vol. 715 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Enda Kenny

I rise today to speak for those who have no voice for themselves. Last week I raised with the Taoiseach the consequence of Government action in not controlling costs. We now have a situation in which thousands of people — members of families — are forced today to march on this House to protest at the cutting of respite care for the disabled and mentally challenged. Last week the Taoiseach defended his decision. I have considered his reply and I fundamentally reject it.

Last year the National Federation of Voluntary Bodies, an association of organisations providing health care services in the voluntary sector, sat down with the Health Service Executive. It faced up to its responsibility in this time of national crisis and agreed on a range of cuts amounting to €15 million, plus all the reductions in public sector pay and so on. The federation said to its constituent members around the country that because this was a time of national crisis, it was prepared to face up to its responsibility and take its fair share of cuts. Then, because the HSE was unable to control its costs in other areas in which there were overruns, it came back and took another €11 million from the voluntary sector. This is what is causing the problem. It is causing thousands of families to march today for their loved ones who have no voice and cannot speak for themselves.

The Taoiseach defended this position last week. The report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes outlines so many ways in which the Government could have taken different decisions, thus ensuring that the services provided to those with disabilities, particularly respite care, could continue. For example, the report points out a possible saving of €154 million through rationalisation of State agencies. In the Vote of the Department of Health and Children alone, savings of €1.2 billion could have been made by choosing from a menu of options. However, the Government has allowed a situation to develop in which an extra €11 million has been savagely cut from these organisations by the HSE, with the consequence——

An Ceann Comhairle

Do we have a question, Deputy?

Deputy Enda Kenny

——that people who look after adults with a mental age of three or four are now under serious pressure. The House goes off tomorrow for the summer recess, leaving this absolute mess behind. In the interest of the thousands of families involved in this on a 24-hour basis, is the Taoiseach prepared to take executive action on this and to put a stop to the madness? Is he prepared to allow the voluntary organisations, which are prepared to take their share of responsibility, to be able to continue to provide services in Caherdavin, Swinford, Cabra and other places around the country where closures are having to take place? Will he put a stop to this madness today?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

There is no such decision.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There is. Already €2.5 million has been cut and they are looking for another €2 million. There is such a decision.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There is such a decision.

The Taoiseach

There is no such decision.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Deputy McCormack woke up very cranky this morning.

The Taoiseach

I want to make it very clear. It is not acceptable to me or the Government that respite services will be cut and as far as I am concerned, that will not happen.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

It has happened in Limerick already.

The Taoiseach

The Minister, Deputy Mary Harney, and the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, are meeting the Brothers of Charity today. I have indicated that there are other savings to be found in terms of management, layers of management, HR systems and purchasing and procurement. There is no such decision and this is not a time to scare people who are vulnerable. There are 25,000 people in receipt of services——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is the Taoiseach's actions that have scared people.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption please.

The Taoiseach

The Government has increased spending in this area by 400% and I am proud of what we have done in this area. I was a sponsor of that work myself when I was Minister of Health and Minister for Finance. I remind Deputy Kenny that he was a member of a Government that would not even provide €1 million for emergency services for people. That is his record.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Shame on the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I assure Deputy Kenny that the discussions that are taking place will ensure that those people will not be affected, and I will not take any nonsense from the Deputy on that.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach should be ashamed of himself.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have Deputy Kenny, without interruption? I call on Deputy McCormack to allow his party leader speak.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The first time I asked the Taoiseach a question on Leader's Questions, I asked about a woman in hospital. The Taoiseach's response was that it was too facile to raise such a case. I reject the charge the Taoiseach has made today. Shame on him and his Government for allowing what is happening to happen. The Taoiseach has said that no such decision has been made. If not, why are thousands of people marching to the House today? I will tell him why. This is their cry for help. Who speaks for these people? The Taoiseach certainly does not these days.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny does not anyway.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach has chosen to increase the entertainment budget in Departments, which is up by 66% this year or €1.2 million. This money is being spent for entertainment and clinking of glasses and €289,000 of it is being spent in the Taoiseach's Department. The travel budget for Departments is up by €2.4 million this year. Would that money not provide these services and allow these places remain open? The Taoiseach has chosen not to make any redundancies in the HSE corporate body, despite the fact that the chief executive told my party there were at least 2,500 people in the system who did not know what their jobs were or know where they fitted into the system, but yet they had jobs for life. The Taoiseach has chosen not to implement any of the rationalisation options mentioned by McCarthy, which would save €150 million. He has chosen not to do that, but has allowed another soft touch, and allowed the HSE savage the budget for these voluntary organisations.

I reject what the Taoiseach is saying here. It is fine for him to talk about governments of 13, 15 or 20 years ago. When the Government of 1994-1997 handed over the economy, it was in surplus for the first time in 27 years. It now looks as if we will have to sort it out again. The Taoiseach has come in here time after time and said he will always accept responsibility for his actions and that he stands over all his decisions. Yes, he does that, but he does not accept their consequences. He does not understand or seem to understand——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Or care.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——what is happening in thousands of households around this country. He may well smile about it.

The Taoiseach

I am not smiling.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach may say it is not happening, but he should go and ask the sisters, the Daughters of Charity and the Brothers of Charity and those who are providing voluntary services. These organisations faced up to their responsibility. They agreed to take cuts across the board, including pay cuts, and to do the same work for less. However, because the Government has not been able to either govern or manage the sector, the HSE, with its overruns in other sections, has imposed these extra cutbacks on the voluntary sector that provides the best service and value for money of any department under the HSE. The Taoiseach's response last week and this week is indicative of a Taoiseach and Government who have lost compassion and do not understand the difficulties, stress and pressure these people now face. The Taoiseach will go down in history as the one who presided over the failure to listen to the call of these people on the Government to help them. They are crying out for help.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can the Deputy please put his question?

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach is going down the wrong road. There are other options he could have chosen. He will go away for the summer and leave this 24-hour a day situation for thousands of families in his wake. Shame on him and his Government.

The Taoiseach

I would rather put the facts than get involved in rhetoric with the Deputy. He should just explain his record in this area. With regard to our record, I am making it clear——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption please.

The Taoiseach

I wish to make the point again that no decision has been made.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is already done.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy made two assertions that decisions have been made to cut services. That is not the case.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

On a point of information, the respite centre in Limerick has been closed for the past three weeks.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss this matter. The Deputy should resume her seat.

The Taoiseach

Discussions are taking place today and tomorrow——

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach should go down to Limerick and see the place that has been closed.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

On a point of information, the Taoiseach is misleading the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must proceed on the basis that the person in possession be allowed speak. The same protection will be extended to the Deputy. I ask Deputy McCormack to resume his seat. One speaker at a time.

The Taoiseach

I want to make it clear to Deputy Kenny that discussions are taking place today and tomorrow with Ministers and the providers of these services to find the efficiencies and savings that can be found without affecting front line services in the way that has been suggested. Officials from the HSE stated on radio this morning it is not the intention to affect front line services.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is already done.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

It is already done.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

On a point of information——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCormack should resume his seat or I will ask him to leave the House.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach is misleading the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

He is misleading the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is tempting fate. He will be out until the autumn if he does not resume his seat.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

The decision is already made in Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume her seat. Can we have one speaker at a time? The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The centre in Limerick is closed.

The Taoiseach

What I find appalling is Deputy Kenny's failure to recognise that no such decision has been taken——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is untrue.

The Taoiseach

——and that discussions are taking place with a view to ensuring that front line services are protected to the greatest extent possible.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The respite centre in Limerick is closed.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Does the Taoiseach not remember meeting the people he met three weeks ago in Limerick?

An Ceann Comhairle

One speaker at a time. The Taoiseach is in possession.

The Taoiseach

We, as a Government, have provided 400% more for disability services than when Fine Gael was in office. Our record in this area——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is not going where it should go.

The Taoiseach

When I came into office there had been people from Fine Gael and the Labour Party in Government before me who had not been able to provide €1 million for emergency services. My commitment in this area has been proven and there are discussions taking place to ensure that the most vulnerable are not affected and that they find other savings than what may have been suggested by anybody else. That is my statement to the people today. That is the commitment on which I intend to achieve an outcome. With all due respect, despite the Deputy's continued efforts to suggest otherwise, decisions have not been taken in respect of what we want to see taking place as a result of the ongoing discussions.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is not true. Decisions have been taken and there have been cutbacks of 4%.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

There have been cuts in services.

Deputy Noel J. Coonan

The Taoiseach needs a couple of weeks over the summer to come back to the real world.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach is deceiving the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy McCormack resume his seat?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach is deceiving the House and I will not let anybody away with that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat or I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It is very hard to listen to what is being said.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Go home so.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The people who will be on the streets of Dublin and other cities today have not dreamed this up, they are not imagining it. There have been cuts: Bawnmore in Limerick is closed; the facility on the Navan Road is closed; and Galway is threatened with closure or cutbacks in the services being provided. Last Friday all the service providers got letters informing them of the cutbacks that are taking place. Parents and carers of people with disabilities are understandably very agitated to the point that they are out on the streets because of their fear that they will lose their respite care which in some cases is one day a week or one weekend in every six. This care enables them, as they would put it themselves, to have a life for those couple of days on which care is provided.

It is fair to say that the people who are on the streets today felt that the days of having to protest, of having to walk on the streets in order to bring attention to the needs and difficulties they have in providing care for members of their family who suffer with disabilities were over. They also thought the days of having to publicise the circumstances, difficulties and personal cases of their loved ones in order to embarrass the Government into providing the necessary care were over. I have two questions for the Taoiseach. First, will he give a guarantee today to every parent and carer of persons with disabilities that they will not lose their respite care? Second, will he give an assurance that there will be no cutbacks in the services provided to people with disabilities?

The Taoiseach

It is not a question of embarrassment for the Government. This Government has committed itself with money and with resources to extending these services, which were in an appalling state before we came into office. The facts speak for themselves and Deputy Gilmore was a member of that Government. He should not suggest to me that I have any cause for embarrassment in that respect.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Taoiseach was also in government at that time.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Howlin was Minister for Health.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Taoiseach was my Cabinet colleague and Deputy Bertie Ahern was Minister for Finance.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach must be allowed to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Quinn gave me the extra €1 million for emergency services. Then there was the era when Fergus Finlay was the second most powerful man in the Government.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That was 1994 to 1997 — does Deputy Howlin remember that?

The Taoiseach

However, let us leave that aside because we are talking about now.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Yes, let us talk about now.

The Taoiseach

Exactly. I want to make it clear that this Government has a record of improvement and increase of services for these people, and rightly so, which I will stand over against any predecessor in any office. I am looking at Deputy Quinn in that respect.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

At least we did not bankrupt the country.

The Taoiseach

The second point I want to make is that I have indicated both to the Ministers and to those providing the services that there is a need for them to change whatever arrangements they have — and they have allocated a lot of money — to make sure the people who require the services obtain the services. However, there will have to be changes made in non-front-line services.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There have already been cutbacks of €2.5 million.

The Taoiseach

What I would expect from responsible Deputies in this House is to indicate that they agree that those non-front line services should be changed so that those who require them get them.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is ridiculous, service providers are at the pin of their collar.

The Taoiseach

Whatever is required within those organisations or between those organisations will happen.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach does not have a clue. It is very vexing, a Cheann Comhairle.

The Taoiseach

That is precisely what is going on at the moment with Ministers meeting those providers of services. Given the moneys that are being provided — of a total of €1.2 billion, €900 million will go to intellectual disability, which is an awful lot more than when Deputy Gilmore was in office, and some €300 million to those with physical and sensory disability — I am confident that those people who require the services on the front line will obtain them. However, it will require change. Perhaps if Deputy Gilmore were to stand up in the House and explain, as I will, that it is those people who are not in the front line who have to take the efficiencies and not those in the front line, then we have a way of going forward in this situation.

Deputy James Bannon

Will the Taoiseach abolish the HSE?

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Will the HSE withdraw its threat to services?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I asked the Taoiseach two simple questions, neither of which he answered. What he has given me in reply is an Ard-Fheis speech. I have no problem with that; I will engage with him any time and anywhere in political back and forth and we can each give as good as we get. That is not the issue today.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

If the Deputy had any policies we could engage with him.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When we rise tomorrow for whatever length of time, whatever number of months the Taoiseach chooses to close down Dáil Éireann, parents and carers of people with disabilities will have to see how they are fixed over that two or three-month period in terms of providing care. They do not want to know what this Government or that Government did or what the Taoiseach did as Minister for Health. They have simple requirements and I want the Taoiseach to answer their questions. First, will they have the respite care or not? Second, are there going to be cuts in the services they are getting?

The Taoiseach can have any arguments he wants with the HSE, and the HSE can have whatever arguments it needs to have with the service providers. Perhaps that should be done. The line Ministers need to take a hands-on approach if that is what must be done. However, the bottom line must be the point of view of persons who have a family member with disabilities for whom they are providing care in the home. Those people are at their wit's end and are stretched and strained trying to provide that care. They want to know whether they will still have their respite care or if it will be taken away from them as has already happened in some cases.

I have asked two questions. Will these people retain their respite care and are there going to be cuts in services? The Taoiseach must do whatever he has to do, with the HSE and with service providers, in order to make it happen. The Taoiseach is Head of Government; it is he who makes things happen.

The Taoiseach

That is precisely what the meetings today, tomorrow and during the course of this week are about. That is in stark contrast to the suggestion by a Deputy opposite that decisions have already been taken.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Will the Taoiseach give us a commitment?

The Taoiseach

I am not interested in the politics of it; that is the point. I am making the situation clear to the House, as I am making it clear to the most vulnerable people in our society. I stand over the record of this Government in regard to that. Whatever is required to make sure the most vulnerable people are not affected, that is my requirement and that is what I am saying.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

That is exactly what the Government is not doing.

The Taoiseach

Regardless of what I hear from Deputy McCormack, that is the purpose of the discussions that are ongoing.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I will not take that from the Taoiseach.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will the Taoiseach answer the questions?

The Taoiseach

That is the commitment I am giving. It is in stark contrast to when Deputy McCormack's party was in office — when it had the opportunity to act its commitment was nil.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

There have been cutbacks of €2.5 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCormack must resume his seat. Leaders' Questions are concluded.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

If the Ceann Comhairle had permitted me to raise this matter on the Adjournment there would be no argument now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat, he is disrupting the business of the House. We are moving on to Questions to the Taoiseach.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

When will the respite centre in Limerick reopen?

An Ceann Comhairle

Leaders' Questions are concluded.