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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Dec 2011

Vol. 749 No. 4

Topical Issue Debate

Medical Cards

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for permitting me to raise this matter. There has been a great deal of talk in recent weeks, both in this House and outside it, regarding changes in social welfare provision and how they affect older and vulnerable people. The issue I wish to raise is related to that debate but not directly relevant to the budgetary provisions, namely, the delays being experienced by applicants throughout the State regarding the granting and renewal of medical cards.

The Minister referred in the Chamber last week to the huge increase in the number of medical cards issued in recent years as a consequence of the changed economic climate. I do not mean it as a criticism of anybody working in the medical card processing system in observing that the service seems to be overwhelmed. This is causing additional trauma for applicants, particularly elderly people and those with ongoing medical issues. The application and processing system was centralised during the summer, which we were told would offer enhanced efficiency and quicker processing times. That does not seem to be happening. Instead we seem to be facing a situation similar to that which arose at the Passport Office.

I ask the Minister to address this issue as quickly as possible. Members on all sides of the House are being contacted by constituents experiencing delays in the granting and renewal of medical cards. People come to us because they find it difficult to get information directly in regard to their applications. We are often the first port of call for distressed constituents. We would all like to see a system that works well and would not require our intervention. I have spoken to people who, having sent in information that was requested following an application, are told when they contact the central processing centre some weeks later that there is no record of the information being received. Other constituents who have appealed a decision to the appeals office in Donegal are told by staff there that the relevant file is in Dublin, only then to be told by staff in Dublin that it has been sent to Donegal.

I was prompted to raise this issue by a case of which I became aware five or six weeks ago which serves as an example of how the system is failing to respond in a timely manner. The person who contacted me had a family member who had been diagnosed with cancer and was deteriorating rapidly. Under the previous system, local knowledge would have ensured that a medical card was granted quickly. Under the new system, however, that did not happen, and the card was only finally issued a week after the person was buried. In another case I spoke to a couple who had been granted a medical card at the beginning of 2011. However, when they tried to fill a prescription some weeks ago, the pharmacist told them the card was invalid, a development of which they were not informed. I hope the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, will address these issues in her response.

I am responding to this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly. I thank the Deputy for raising it as it provides me with an opportunity to set out the progress made by the Health Service Executive's initiative to standardise the processing of medical cards throughout the country. Medical cards are provided to persons who, in the opinion of the HSE, are unable, without undue hardship, to arrange general practitioner medical and surgical services for themselves and their dependants. While income guidelines are the principal benchmark used for deciding medical card eligibility, the HSE also has regard to other matters considered appropriate in assessing a person for a medical card.

The HSE implemented its decision to centralise the processing of all new applications and renewals of medical cards at the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, in Finglas, Dublin, on 1 July 2011. Following the centralisation of the service, the PCRS reported that it was receiving approximately 20,000 applications per week. The PCRS estimates that in excess of 80% of complete applications are processed within 15 working days. Delays can occur where applications are submitted without the correct supporting documentation necessary to complete the processing of the application.

All applications are given a unique application number by the PCRS, which is immediately notified to applicants. Applicants are advised of the importance of quoting this unique application number on all correspondence with the PCRS because it is used to track all correspondence as well as the current status of the application. In cases where an application is not complete, the PCRS writes to the applicant requesting the missing documentation.

In cases where a decision is made not to grant a medical card, the applicant is informed of the decision, notified of his or her right to appeal this decision and contact details for the appeals office are provided. Where appellants submit an appeal within 21 days of a decision, they retain their medical card or GP visit card until the appeal is decided. The appeals officer notifies the appellant of the final decision in the case.

In 2010, as part of the centralisation project, the HSE introduced a new website, www.medicalcard.ie, which enables people anywhere in the country to apply for or renew a medical card through a simple and efficient application process. Thousands of applications are now submitted online every month. Applying online also gives applicants access to up-to-date information on the progress of their medical card renewal or application.

Following centralisation, staff in local health offices continue to provide information and assistance to individuals in regard to their applications for medical cards. They also provide information on the current status of a person's application or review by tracking the application on the PCRS system. The centralisation project is part of the HSE's effort to deliver efficiencies and reduce overhead costs in a manner that minimises the impact on front line services. The administration costs of the PCRS represent less than 1% of the value of the payments processed by it.

The progress of the centralisation project is being continuously monitored and, if required, modifications will be made to address any issues arising. Centralisation delivers consistent and equitable application of eligibility and service provision. It also facilitates clearer governance and accountability, as well as improved management information. Nevertheless, I very much take on board the Deputy's point that for people who are not computer literate, particularly elderly people, it can be a daunting process.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. However, what she described is how the process should work; my contention is that it is not working as it should. The Minister of State mentioned the extra thousands of applications being submitted. Have additional staff been allocated to the centralised processing service to meet this demand? Some applicants are giving up in despair when they cannot get through to the call centre. Others are told to contact their local office only to find the latter knows nothing about the matter and must then contact the central office on the applicant's behalf. Has that part of the service been outsourced? As the Minister of State observed, the online facility is of little use to older people who may not be computer literate.

The problem is often that people do not apply for a medical card as soon as they experience a reduction in income. Instead, they wait until they must attend a doctor before applying, at which stage a delay is inevitable because the process must take its course. The positive aspect of the scheme is its equitability. On the other hand, it was great for us, under the old process, to be able to contact the local health manager and explain a constituent's case in detail. The downside of the process is that we and the individual applicant can no longer do so. The GP card or the medical card may be retained until the appeal process is completed and this gives wriggle-room or time to collect additional information as sometimes this may be the difficulty. I acknowledge there are kinks in the system which need to be ironed out and one of the significant kinks in the system is that the local offices do not have sufficient staff to process the files at local level. This will need to be dealt with.

The medical card system works well in the case of the over-70s and this is because it has been in place for longer, but the kinks in the system remain in terms of the overall country-wide application.

Mental Health Services

Deputies Joe Costello, Derek Keating, Maureen O'Sullivan and Alex White, have four minutes between them.

I hope the Acting Chairman will be flexible as regards the time.

The concerns of relatives and staff in Grangegorman are now public as a result of media attention such as on "Liveline". Five women are being transferred from an open unit in Grangegorman to a closed, secure unit. Voluntary patients are moving to a ward for involuntary patients. This is contrary to all best medical practice. These are low risk patients who are being moved into what would have been regarded as a medium to high risk unit. A number of these patients have been in the unit for a considerable period of time. They are familiar with their surroundings and have formed friendships and have decorated the unit for Christmas.

The reason for this significant change in their situation is because of a shortage of staff. This is a peak holiday time and there is an embargo on recruitment in the public sector. The staff are very committed and are to be commended, and a new, state-of-the-art unit will be built next year. However, a current significant bottleneck needs to be addressed. The solution is to provide the staff cover through the use of overtime or agency staff. Another seven patients in the unit were transferred to hostel accommodation on the North Circular Road and in Fairview or to other units. This could be an alternative for the remaining five patients or else the embargo on staff should be lifted to allow for the provision of ten extra staff required over that period. I ask the Minister of State to address the situation.

I am absolutely furious at the way this matter is being handled by the HSE and its treatment of these patients. I am of the view that this is possibly illegal and it is certainly immoral. It is completely unprofessional to lump five women into a unit which already caters for six patients. During the period of their incarceration they will have the use of a single toilet. Part of the difficulty is that Unit O, where these patients are being incarcerated, is a locked unit and the Mental Health Commission previously deemed this unit to be unsuitable and not fit for purpose. These five patients are being told they cannot use their mobile telephones during the Christmas period. I wonder who made this decision. Are these women five patients or five prisoners? From my voluntary work over the years I know how important matters such as a routine, consistency and familiarity are for patients undergoing treatment and in particular for those undergoing mental health treatment.

The Mental Health Act 2001 has two main features, the promotion and maintenance of quality standards of care and treatment which are regularly inspected and properly regulated. The primary function of the Mental Health Tribunals established under the Act is to ensure the protection of the rights of patients detained involuntarily. These five patients, in my view, are being detained involuntarily. If a person is detained and treated in a hospital against his or her will, this is not complying with human rights. If this is the case, the Mental Health Act must be urgently updated and amended. The information that patients are being moved from their home, Unit 3B, to a locked unit is completely unacceptable. I ask whether this action contravenes the Mental Health Act.

In advance of any Dáil question I will table, I ask who made the decision and on what basis. Was a consultant involved in the decision? Could this action result in a complaint to the Medical Council if this decision was endorsed by a consultant? For the sake of a paltry few bob, I ask the Minister of State to direct the HSE to provide staff for the welfare and comfort of these patients in their own unit during the Christmas festivities. I am very conscious that we have a caring a Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and disability who has inherited the restricted circumstances from a previous Administration. I ask her in the few days leading up to Christmas to ask the HSE to exercise some flexibility.

I too am appalled at the situation in Grangegorman for very vulnerable people and their loved ones. Eleven long-term patients from Unit 3B have been moved. The most focus has been on those who have been moved into Unit O but others have been moved to hostels and other accommodation. The bottom line is the moving of these patients. They are used to their familiar environment and the move is very distressing and disturbing for them. They have mental health issues and I am aware of the Minister of State's interest in that area.

There are issues for those already in Unit O whose space is being taken over by the new residents and also issues for the residents of Unit 3B. A health and safety issue arises in both areas for both patients and staff and it is also a human rights issue.

This is a very disquieting situation. As well as having been contacted by concerned family members, I have also had an opportunity to speak to some of the professional staff involved. Deputy Keating has raised this issue briefly but from my knowledge of their views they are just as appalled and dissatisfied at this decision and its implications. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan has said, it runs the risk of seriously compounding the anxiety suffered by these five women at the best of times.

I appreciate the Minister of State's commitment to this area and I do not doubt it for one minute. This is clearly an issue of resources and if the decision is to be reversed on 16 January 2012, it means a solution will exist on 16 January. It may be naive of me to ask the Minister of State but I ask if it is possible to bring forward what will be done on 16 January to 13 December, considering the status quo will be reversed in the middle of January. Surely there is some possibility of this being addressed in a way that can solve it for this short period of four weeks. I ask the Minister of State, knowing her commitment to this entire area, to consider this option. The decision to use a locked or a semi-locked ward is completely the opposite direction we should go. It is completely unacceptable that we should have to take that step at this stage of our development. We should be going in the opposite direction and I know this is the long-term commitment of the Minister of State. This is a bad and a retrograde step and I hope the Minister of State can do something to have it reversed.

I have allowed some flexibility on time because of the importance of this matter and I will allow similar flexibility to the Minister of State.

I thank the Acting Chairman. The extra time is much appreciated as this is a very difficult issue to deal with in a short timeframe for a reply. To respond to Deputy White's final question on why a solution could not be found immediately if one will be found by 16 January of next year, the difficulty is that the staff needed will not return from annual leave until 16 January. There is little we can do in the circumstances. At present, 37 staff are absent in the units in question as a result of maternity leave and sick leave and because a number of those who will retire in February will avail of the accumulated leave to which they are entitled. We must accept this is the case, especially given the extraordinary job performed by the staff in question. I am not sure any of us would do their job.

I am pleased the House is discussing locked units, an issue that was well ventilated recently when we discussed a Private Members' motion tabled by Technical Group. Locked units are from a bygone era, although in some cases people who have emotional episodes need to be protected from themselves and, in rare cases, members of the public need to be protected from individuals. Specific units are in place to deal with such cases. The use of locked units, especially dormitory style units, flies in the face of our mental health strategy, A Vision for Change, and everything that most Members believe in.

It is highly regrettable that the action being taken has become necessary, particularly at this time of year, and I completely understand the distress the decision has caused patients — if that is the correct term — their families and the general community. The Health Service Executive informs me that the measures are necessary given the shortage of nursing staff in Dublin north west mental health services. Dublin will not be the only area that will experience shortages in future. There was a large number of retirements this year among nursing staff in St. Brendan's Hospital and vacant posts were not filled due to the recruitment pause in place in the HSE. Unfortunately, therefore, the executive has been left with no option but to devise a contingency arrangement to ensure both patient safety and continuity of services over the Christmas period. It is not the case that I have only recently become involved in this matter. I have been making inquiries about since before last weekend and the issue must be dealt with in future.

To address Deputy Keating's concerns, the Mental Health Commission has responsibility under the Mental Act 2001 to take all reasonable steps to protect the interests of detained patients. I understand the Health Service Executive has notified the commission of the measures proposed. The Mental Health Commission has responsibility for ensuring the units in question have sufficient staff to provide a safe environment for those who are detained at St. Brendan's Hospital and its staff. Despite our efforts to have people receive mental health services in the community, an approach that keeps them well and prevents them from being admitted to hospital, some of them are being called into acute units. It is perverse that people in the community are becoming unwell and require readmission to hospital. This issue will form part of the review of the Mental Health Act.

The position is that, following clinical assessment, it has been decided to transfer the 12 long-stay patients from Unit 3B. Five have been transferred to Unit O, four to community hostels and the remaining three to other facilities. However, I have been assured that this is purely a temporary measure and Unit 3B will reopen on 16 January next, if not earlier. Concerns in the media largely centre on the transfer of five women to Unit O, which is a low secure ward that has a locked door policy in place. I have received an assurance from the Health Service Executive that patients from Unit 3B who previously could move in and out freely will still be able to do so. This is fully in line with our national mental health policy which seeks to ensure patients are held in the least restrictive environment possible.

Concerns have also been expressed that patients in Unit O have access to only one shower. Again, I am assured that there are two showers available to patients. While I know this is far from ideal and I am acutely aware of the infrastructural deficits at St. Brendan's Hospital, the closure of the hospital is foreseen in the context of the implementation of A Vision for Change. Those who are familiar with the facility will be aware that the reduction in its patient population is proceeding at a steady pace. Acute admissions have ceased and the hospital now provides only continuing care to long-stay patients who are the women affected by the recent decision.

I am pleased to inform the House that construction is under way on a 54 bed replacement long-stay facility as part of the Grangegorman redevelopment project. Building is expected to be completed in 2012 and the new facility will provide patients with their own single bedrooms, en suite facilities, therapy and rehabilitation spaces, in other words, the types of facilities we should have been providing years ago. I am confident patients will have moved into the new facility before next Christmas, although I accept this will be cold comfort to patients in Unit O. Again, I express my regret that these measures were necessary.

Budget 2012 provided an additional €35 million for mental health services which will be used to provide additional posts in the community. I hope people will never again be locked up for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years. I visited a locked unit in which one person who clearly did not present a danger to anyone had resided for 60 years. The additional funding will enable the HSE to enhance the multidisciplinary composition of community mental health teams and focus on key priorities in mental health. There is, however, a need to explore more fully how mental health services, owing to the age profile of staff within the service, have been impacted disproportionately by the staff moratorium. This issue is already the subject of discussions between officials of my Department and the HSE and I intend to pursue it further to achieve an appropriate result which ensures the quality and safety of our mental health services in the future. The blunt instrument of the moratorium will not serve us well in mental health. For this reason, we must closely examine the areas in which we most need staff and how they can best be provided. Discussions will have to take place on this issue because staff will be lost in areas in which they are needed and retained in areas where we could do without them. I appreciate that the Acting Chairman, Deputy Broughan, has allowed me considerable latitude.

I allowed an additional five minutes for discussion of this important topic. However, as other Deputies have been waiting to speak on other topics, I ask Deputies Costello, Keating, O'Sullivan and White to confine their contributions to putting a single question to the Minister of State.

While I appreciate the Minister of State's remarks on the additional €35 million in the budget and new proposals regarding the facility in question, we face a real and immediate crisis which is completely unacceptable. We may find, as a result of the recruitment embargo and forthcoming retirements in February, that we still have staffing shortages on 16 January. While this matter is being addressed, will the Minister of State make arrangements to allow the Deputies who have raised this issue to visit the unit in order that we can see where the women in question are being placed? I know such a facility resides with the inspector and ask the Minister of State to make the appropriate arrangements.

I acknowledge that the Minister of State's heart is in the right place and I have no doubt she will make a significant contribution to mental health services in the lifetime of the Government. Does she not have the power to direct the HSE to resolve this single sensitive and critical issue for five human beings at Christmas time?

I presume additional staff went into the other unit because additional patients were there. Given that this is Christmas time, and in light of the stressful nature of this issue, can the Minister of State not use some of the €35 million to resolve this difficulty? I understand some of the families are also willing to contribute.

I was about to ask the same question. Is it not possible for the HSE to secure the services of temporary staff for this short four-week period? I understand what the Minister of State has said. I would not for a moment wish to trespass on anybody's right to take annual leave. If we accept that the response we have been given — the posts lie vacant and cannot be replaced — is accurate, does the HSE not have some flexibility to hire staff for four weeks?

I ask the Minister of State to conclude.

I appreciate the Chair's patience. I can inform Deputy Costello that I have already made a request to be allowed to visit the unit. I have been told it is not a difficulty. I did not make a similar request on behalf of other Deputies. I will make such a request and revert to all the Deputies in question. I assure Deputies O'Sullivan and Keating that people on overtime and agency staff are already working in the unit. I have been informed by the HSE that the difficulty is that it is better to have staff with whom the residents of the unit are familiar, rather than people who are not known to them. It is very easy to understand that point. The HSE has assured me that it has asked people to do a little extra work over Christmas. It is natural and understandable that people are reluctant to work during the Christmas holidays. I am in regular contact with the HSE. If it agrees to a visit by the Deputies when I contact it again, I will contact them.

Departmental Properties

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue. I thank the Minister, Deputy Quinn, for coming to the House to deal with it. Piper's Hill is a new all-embracing educational campus just outside Naas in County Kildare. It is organised and operated by Kildare VEC, or more accurately by the chief executive of the VEC, Mr. Seán Ashe. There are many opinions among educationalists and sociologists about the desirability of shoe-horning the wide spectrum of educational provision onto one site. Time will tell if this experiment works well or otherwise. However, I do not want to raise that aspect of the Piper's Hill campus today. Instead, I wish to focus on the extraordinary and unorthodox methods used to raise the funding for the campus.

In his response, perhaps the Minister will give the House details of the sequence of events that led to him being forced last summer to meet a shortfall of over €20 million for this project from funds that had been earmarked for the school summer projects and other schemes. It seems that the chief executive of the VEC, Mr. Ashe, who was the driving force behind the project and the novel model for funding it, decided to sell the old second level VEC school in Naas to Superquinn for €23 million. Superquinn paid a deposit of €2.3 million and was supposed to pay the balance of €21.7 million in February 2010. The chief executive then made the extraordinary and dangerous decision to raise a loan of €21.7 million with Bank of Ireland on the back of the Superquinn deal, which was ultimately not concluded. He did that with the sanction of the Fianna Fáil Minister for Education and Skills, with whom he was closely associated.

When Superquinn failed to come up with the balance of €21.7 million in February 2010, it sought additional time and agreed to pay the interest on the VEC loan. The wheels were now seriously coming off the wagon. The deal was falling asunder. The VEC, the Department and the taxpayer were exposed. The chickens were coming home to roost on an extraordinarily risky venture that was pursued at the end of the madness that was the building boom. By mid-2010, Superquinn was in receivership and the VEC was stuck with a loan which it could not pay and should never have raised in the circumstances.

I understand that the Department of Education and Skills and the taxpayer were obliged to pick up the tab for the total of €21.7 million that was due. It appears that this year's school summer projects and other schemes were jeopardised as a result. Can the Minister give the House an assurance that the type of risk-taking and venture activity that was at the core of this case will no longer be sanctioned by him? Will he introduce the necessary checks and balances on how VECs raise funds for school buildings to ensure the type of fiasco that occurred at Piper's Hill does not happen again?

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me an opportunity to outline to the House the current position in regard to the funding of the Piper's Hill Educational Campus in Naas, County Kildare. As the Deputy is aware, there has been a significant increase in the number of schoolgoing children in the country in recent years. My Department is forecasting that this will increase further in the coming years. Naas is one of the areas identified by the Department as experiencing a rapid growth in demand for new school accommodation. In this context, Kildare VEC took the initiative and developed a new educational campus at Piper's Hill, including a new 1,000-pupil post-primary school building, a physical education hall, a building for Gaelscoil Nás na Ríogh and a headquarters building for the Irish Vocational Education Association. In time, it will be the site of permanent buildings for Naas community national school and St. David's Church of Ireland national school. As the Deputy will be aware, the development of the campus has been highly successful to date. The development of the campus and the provision of additional post-primary school places ensured there was no accommodation crisis in Naas in recent years and all children in the catchment area had a place to go to school.

The development of the Piper's Hill educational campus did not follow the usual model of upfront Exchequer funding from the Department. Instead, the VEC funded the development of the post-primary school, the sports hall and the site infrastructure such as roads, etc. The Department funded the construction of the gaelscoil and the Irish Vocational Education Association headquarters. Kildare VEC funded its element of the project by entering into a contract for the disposal of an existing asset to the Superquinn group. This was done with the approval of the Department and my predecessors as Minister. Under the terms of the arrangement, Superquinn was supposed to acquire the site of the old vocational school on the Limerick Road in Naas, which was not large enough to accommodate a 1,000 pupil school. The VEC borrowed the funds to develop the new school, sports hall and site infrastructure on the strength of this contract for sale.

When the Superquinn group went into receivership last year, it became clear that the contract with the VEC would not be honoured. The VEC was left without the means to pay off its debt with the bank. Rather than allowing the VEC to continue to incur interest on this debt, I decided to make funds available to the VEC to settle the debt with the bank.

The VEC continues to retain the freehold on the old vocational school in Naas that was the subject of the contract for sale. It is being used as a permanent location for Gaelcholáiste Chill Dara, which has been able to vacate its previous rented premises to relocate in Naas, thus eliminating the previous rental bill on that premises and avoiding the need to acquire a greenfield site and develop a new school building for the gaelcholáiste. The VEC also retained the original deposit of 10% that was paid by Superquinn when the contract was signed. This was used as part of the Piper's Hill campus development. While it is regrettable that the original transaction was not completed, the fact remains that two post-primary schools are now located in permanent accommodation, while the Piper's Hill campus is an asset to the town of Naas and a key part of the educational infrastructure of the area.

I thank the Minister for his reply. We already had much of the information he has given us. He did not deal with the essential question I raised. Will he put systems in place to ensure this sort of capitalist venture, whereby money is raised in this way for public schools, is ended? Certain programmes in the Department of Education and Skills were put at serious risk as a result of the collapse of this venture.

There are lessons to be learned from what has happened in this case. I thank the Deputy for giving me an opportunity to outline to the House the current position regarding the payment of funds. It would have been preferable if the original sale had gone ahead. In the circumstances in which we now find ourselves, we have to learn from the experience of this case and make sure similar situations do not recur in the future.

Educational Disadvantage

I appreciate the flexibility offered by the Chair because this is a serious issue.

I do not know when the Minister, Deputy Quinn, last visited a DEIS school, or whether he did so recently. The work DEIS schools do in disadvantaged communities is very obvious. I know this at first hand because I have two children who attend schools within DEIS areas. I know the kind of work the schools do, the time teachers spend with students, the ability of teachers to build up students' confidence and ability, how they teach them to read and write, and all the other practical measures involved. The schools play a vital role not only in children's education, but in the greater scheme of things in the community. They help hold together the social fabric and they have been very successful.

I spent the weekend speaking to a number of school principals who were really angry and bewildered by the decision of the Minister in respect of pupil-teacher ratios in DEIS schools. This will have a significant impact not only on the educational needs of the children. Many of the children in question come from very disadvantaged backgrounds. Many have behavioural issues. There is a scheme in place in DEIS schools in regard to school attendance records concerning which I spoke to one principal. In the past five years an additional 1,500 days have been supplied to pupils as a result of the work and extra support put in by the schools. Withdrawing staff will have an enormous effect.

I am trying to get a grip on how many teacher posts will be lost in Cork North-Central. The figures are coming in bit by bit as we talk to the schools. In the 12 schools I spoke with so far, 41 staff will be lost. That is a huge number not only for the staff, but for the children within the schools and in regard to the additional supports the schools provide to the communities.

I heard the budget announcements and looked at the front page of the Minister's website. It is my habit to look at all departmental websites. They say a lot about the Departments.

This is a limited debate.

I know it is limited but it is an important issue and the Chair stated there would be flexibility. I shall finish.

I agree it is important.

The Minister's website states he prioritised front line services in the recent budget. I do not believe that. This measure does not prioritise those services — rather it decimates them and does so in our most disadvantaged communities. This must be reversed.

In the course of the budget debate the Government claimed no changes had been made to the pupil-teacher ratio at primary or secondary school levels. Of course, that is not true. My colleague has set out in very real terms the kind of devastation which will be caused by the withdrawal of what I calculate to be approximately 400 posts. Perhaps the Minister will give the exact figure today. That will be a devastating blow to schools, children and communities and will damage not only children's education, but their social and life opportunities.

I note when the Minister deals with this matter it is referred to as a "legacy" issue. He knows as well as I do that in the communities where DEIS schools are located there are legacies of poverty, need and underachievement in education. Previously, a Labour Party Government vowed to break the cycle and give every child the chance he or she deserves. These actions will undo very much of that work. It is ironic that one Labour Party Minister would sabotage the good work of a previous Labour Party Minister.

At some stage today the Minister met with a group of teachers from the north inner city of Dublin. I am sure they set out for him in concrete terms what it means in a school to lose three, four, five or, in some cases, as many as eight teachers, and how damaging this will be for the children concerned. I am very sure they told the Minister he must stop these cuts. I take this opportunity again to ask the Minister to stop these cuts which will do untold damage. If his Administration claims to have a commitment to education, early childhood intervention, equality of opportunity and the protection not only of children's education, but of their life chances, the Minister has no option other than to stop these cuts.

I wish to reinforce what the other Deputies stated. This is an attack on disadvantaged areas. For many years we made enormous strides in trying to provide education and give people hope and opportunity in areas of disadvantage. The DEIS programme, Breaking the Cycle and Even Breaks were put in place by successive Governments and supported with the necessary resources.

I sat on the Minister's side of the House and defended unpopular decisions but this cut will have devastating impacts in areas of disadvantage not only for the individuals concerned, but collectively within those communities. I urge the Minister to reconsider. As Deputy O' Brien pointed out, more than 40 teachers will be lost on the north side of Cork city, an already disadvantaged area. That is the equivalent of closing three schools in the area.

I ask the Minister to step back and look at the areas supported by the DEIS programme, Breaking the Cycle and Even Breaks and see if he can come up with any imaginative solutions. If we look at the budget we can see that some schools are getting extra allocations without being in areas of disadvantage. They are increasing their teacher numbers while elsewhere there are areas that have had legacy issues for many years. These are unemployment, neglect by the State, local authorities and society at large. There is one opportunity to give people a break.

I offer an interesting figure. Seven per cent of the people who attend these schools on the north side of Cork go on to third level education. That is a move in the right direction but it is only 7%. This is not about third level fees and does not involve any grand debate in the broader sense. This is about the nuts and bolts of people being able to read or write. I urge the Minister to look at the area of disadvantage, Breaking the Cycle and the DEIS programmes.

I concur with my fellow Deputies in asking the Minister to reconsider this very cruel cut to rural and urban disadvantaged schools. If we look at the recent budget a clear trend was that families who are lower paid or on social welfare got hit and hurt more badly and in a more blatant way than people on high pay. It is the same with the education cuts. The headline that emerged from the budget was that there would be no change to teacher-pupil ratios. However, when we delve down into this issue we see there are changes to those ratios and they are taking place in the most disadvantaged schools which most need support.

I offer the Minister two examples of the many schools that will be affected in County Donegal when this cut takes place after next September. Glengad national school currently has five teachers but this measure will bring the number down to three. In Carndonagh girls' national school there are currently nine teachers but this cut will bring the number down to seven and probably to six the following year. These types of cuts are unsustainable but in one fell swoop this is what will be experienced.

Last week, the Government wisely rowed back on the cut to disability benefit, recognising it was the wrong thing to do. Likewise this cut is the wrong thing to do. It is totally unfair for those families, in particular the children, to be hit by reductions in teacher numbers next September. I urge the Minister to withdraw this decision and change his mind.

A key priority for my Department is to continue to prioritise and target funding at schools with the most concentrated levels of educational disadvantage. However, in order to ensure fairness in the distribution of resources available under the DEIS plan, it is no longer possible to allow some schools to retain legacy posts on a concessionary basis that pre-date the introduction of the DEIS scheme. Accordingly, a decision has been taken to withdraw 428 posts from earlier disadvantage programmes in 270 primary schools and 163 post-primary schools that exceed what equivalent schools are entitled to under DEIS or to which non-DEIS schools are not entitled.

The following are some important elements to this measure which should address some of the concerns raised about the schools in question. My Department will hold several teaching posts in reserve to reduce the impact of changes to schools most acutely affected. All schools will be notified in January 2012 of their staffing entitlements under the new arrangement, including any alleviation measures that may apply.

The majority of DEIS band 1 schools will benefit from the new dedicated pupil teacher ratio of 22:1. The new staffing schedule for DEIS band 1 primary schools now gives greater autonomy to schools and simplifies the existing system whereby schools are given a top-up allocation to support lower class sizes of 20:1 in junior classes and 24:1 in senior classes.

DEIS post-primary schools will be targeted for additional support through an improved staffing schedule of 18.25:1, which is a 0.75 point improvement compared to the existing standard, 19:1, that applies in post-primary schools that do not charge fees or compared to the 21:1 ratio that will apply in fee-charging schools.

Phasing out of the legacy posts will commence in the 2012-13 school year. The phasing of this measure will allow schools time to prepare for this gradual change. In the meantime, the new pupil teacher ratio of 22:1 will take effect from September 2012 for all DEIS band 1 schools.

In addition, the changes announced to the general allocation model and the way in which resource teachers are allocated to all 3,200 primary schools will take effect from next September. My Department will, by necessity, carefully examine each DEIS school's staffing arrangements on a case-by-case basis to ensure the impact of changes will be minimised as much as possible.

The Government's protection of schools serving disadvantaged areas is further underlined by the maintenance of €13 million in enhanced funding for DEIS schools, €2 million in school book funding for DEIS schools, as well as a €26 million investment in the home school community liaison scheme. All these areas have been protected from reductions in expenditure for 2012. The school completion programme, which transferred to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs earlier this year, remains a major component of DEIS and has seen only a marginal deduction of €2 million in its overall budget equating to approximately 6.5%.

How can the Minister claim the change in pupil-teacher ratios will benefit some schools? It beggars belief. I asked him when was the last time he visited one of these schools. Deputy Kelleher pointed out how currently 7% of school leavers in the north side of Cork city go on to third level education. Before these schemes were introduced 20 years ago, that figure was only 1%. We will be heading back to that 1% if these cuts go ahead. These cuts cannot proceed. This is not about money but about people's opportunity to further their education, better themselves and get a real job. These schemes are vital to that. If these are withdrawn, it is those children who could benefit who will be worse off.

I take it from the Minister's response that he is not going to change his mind on these cuts. To suggest that withdrawing 420 posts would enhance a child's educational opportunity is utterly perverse. The Minister described this as a legacy issue. What will the Minister's legacy be? It will be that he dismantled the invaluable work done in communities with DEIS schools.

The Minister may not be for changing his mind now but he should be on notice that in the communities and constituencies in which these schools will be hammered by him, he will face a battle not just from the teachers but from the parents and community at large.

Thank you, Deputy.

It baffles me that he will persist with these cuts. He does not need anyone on this side of the House to tell him just how damaging this decision will prove.

In the foreword to the national literacy and numeracy strategy, the Minister stated his aspiration is to achieve world-class literacy and numeracy skills among our children and young people. If the Minister does not reverse these cuts in disadvantaged areas, he will consign that aspiration to the bin and might as well tear up the strategy.

One teacher in a school in my area told me that since DEIS was introduced the school's standardised test results in numeracy and literacy have improved. Her students have flourished emotionally, socially and academically, attendance has vastly improved and parents are very much involved in their children's education. The Minister, through these cuts, will remove 428 teachers from the system. It is a crude cut attacking the most vulnerable students. The Minister should row back on this. The Minister will know what is coming to him when these cuts feed through to the different schools. Parents and children will be hurt by these cuts. It is crucial the Minister goes back to the drawing board, looks again at this and changes his mind.

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. I have visited DEIS band 1 and band 2 schools. There are some in my constituency which is an inner city one and not just all Dublin 4. There have been inequalities between various DEIS schools with some getting fewer resources than others that were previously identified as having a disadvantage and subsequently re-branded as DEIS schools. The question is about the equal treatment of pupils in those categories.

I accept there are areas of compounded social disadvantage where conditions outside the school affect the classroom. I think of some of the schools in my inner city constituency. These measures will be introduced over time and their impact reviewed. An equalisation will be in place as to how they will be implemented. The schools affected will be negotiated with on these measures much earlier than was previously the case.

At the end of the day, we must realise we are not in control of our economic destiny.

I know Deputy McDonald does not like it.

It really does not apply to this issue.

The Minister is hitting the most vulnerable.

No, we are not. We are trying to be as fair as possible on this.

This is not fair and the Minister knows that.

It is. The fairest way to start is to ensure disadvantage is treated equally.

To wreck Dublin inner city more like.

More like making sure they are all disadvantaged equally.

It has not been the case that disadvantage was treated equally. Former Ministers attempted to equalise the allocation of scarce resources but it was not done because of the sorts of arguments made now.

I will examine carefully how these measures are implemented. I will discuss with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, how we can combine the home school liaison and school completion programmes. Teachers have informed me that many of the problems they face originate outside the classroom. The solution is not necessarily more teachers but much more home support——

The solution is not taking teachers away.

——of the kind to which I have referred. That is how we will deal with this.

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