Topical Issue Debate

School Staffing

Deputy Jim Daly

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht teacht isteach chun an ábhar tábhachtach seo a phlé. Everybody is struggling today. That is no secret. This recession has hit everyone hard and deep. One legacy of good and bad times has been overcrowded classrooms. I have often lamented the day that we missed the opportunity to address this issue during the Celtic tiger era when governments dealt with budgetary surpluses of billions and billions of euro. I commend the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, the Ministers of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputies Cannon and Sherlock, and the Department for maintaining class sizes during this difficult time when we have been forced to borrow between €10 billion and €20 billion every year.

I want to raise an issue about a school in west Cork, Castlehaven national school. In that school there are 39 students in the junior and senior infant classes. Several of those students have special learning needs and the teacher is also acting principal of a four-teacher school. That would be my idea of a horrendous, impossible job. To her credit, the teacher does it extremely well, as the parents of the pupils inform me.

It has been suggested to the school that JobBridge might be an option. When I examined the JobBridge scheme I realised that the board of management has informed the parents that it is not an option because of the opposition of the INTO which has instructed its members not to allow JobBridge workers into the school. JobBridge would solve the problem in Castlehaven. The board of management could pay €50 a week and take on a fully-trained graduate teacher who could in turn gain some valuable teaching experience. That teacher would also be able to complete the training which requires doing 30 or 40 weeks of the teaching diploma in the primary school classroom in order to receive the full qualification.

Unfortunately, many teachers who apply for jobs now are automatically thrown off the list because they do not have their teaching qualification for want of teaching experience. One school in my constituency recently received 138 applications for a maternity leave vacancy last month. Principals will of course eliminate anybody who is not qualified, or who does not have the teaching experience. I am aware of numerous principals and boards of management who would love to have people from JobBridge come into the school to assist where classrooms are overcrowded and so gain the experience that is deemed necessary.

I have raised the issue informally and have written formally to the INTO asking it to review its opposition to this issue. As a former member of the INTO, I understand how unions work, and can appreciate its position. Combined strength, however, is not always in the best interests of everybody. This is an example of how that combined strength works against some people's best interests. To oppose the JobBridge proposal is not in the best interests of the students who are in classrooms of over 30, as the INTO highlighted in a recent survey, nor is it in the interests of the hundreds of teachers who have graduated from colleges in Ireland over the past decade and who cannot get teaching positions or complete their formal qualification because they cannot get into the classroom. JobBridge offers a straightforward way to deal with that issue.

One could argue that the victims of this stance could portray opposition to the JobBridge scheme as an attitude of "I'm alright Jack, close the door after me". I do not think that is true in many cases but those who oppose it could stand accused of that attitude. I urge the Government to work pro-actively, to engage positively with the union and ask it, and particularly its executive, to show some leadership in dealing with this issue so that, at the very least, it would give a commitment to providing some derogation from doling out punishment to teachers who co-operate with the JobBridge scheme and who allow graduate teachers into their schools to gain experience. There are hundreds of teachers who are more than happy to do this. This scheme does not affect or give rise to displacement. There is no displacement whatsoever as a result of the JobBridge scheme.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

I acknowledge that the various budget measures that have taken place in recent years can limit the employment opportunities for newly qualified teachers. Although there are limits to the number of teaching posts that we can afford to fund as a country, I am pleased to say that in the recent budget, the Government laid a strong emphasis on protecting the education sector, as the Deputy has acknowledged.

It is estimated that an additional 1,400 teachers will be recruited in primary and post-primary schools in 2014. This will include providing more teachers to meet rising pupil numbers as well as additional resource teachers for children with special educational needs. This will create significant additional employment opportunities for teachers and help address some of the issues raised.

In addition, a number of measures have been taken in recent years to alleviate difficulties for new teachers, the cohort about which the Deputy spoke. My Department has directed managerial authorities of schools to recruit unemployed teachers ahead of retired ones. In addition, the Department of Social Protection's JobBridge national internship scheme provides newly qualified teachers with opportunities to gain experience and to undertake the necessary teaching duties to complete the process of probation.

Circular 46/2011 issued by this Department makes the scheme available to schools and education and training boards and sets out necessary rules to be followed where an intern is employed by a school. These rules are designed to give schools access to extra resources as well as providing valuable experience to the interns that allows them to undergo the probation process. Figures from the Department of Social Protection indicate a total of 58 internships have been described as being "teaching positions" since its commencement in 2011. I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy Jim Daly when he stresses that allowing this to happen within the school environment is a win-win situation for everyone. It is a win for the young people in the school, the teaching staff who can have newly qualified teachers on campus working closely with them to develop their skills and the newly qualified teachers gaining access to that probation opportunity when it might not otherwise be available to them in these very difficult times.

Deputy Jim Daly

My youngest boy started in junior infants this year. We are very fortunate because he is in a class of fewer than 30 students. When I look at parents who see their children starting out in school in classes of 39 in junior and senior infants where a number of those students have learning difficulties, it is nothing short of wrong. We must be more proactive in assisting these schools. We know the ratio is one to 28 but it does not always work out that way with enrolments. This school is a case in point.

I am appealing to the Minister of State in the Department to take on board cases like that of Castlehaven national school. I appreciate the Minister of State may not be able to produce a fully qualified teacher this year, and I believe the Minister will make efforts to do that next year. I would ask that, at the very least, help be given to a qualified teacher who would love to get the experience, is waiting in the wings and wants to go into the school but cannot do so because the board of management has said that the INTO is opposed to this. I appeal to the Minister to use his good offices and those of the Department to appeal to the INTO at the very least to give an undertaking not to punish any teacher who allows another teacher to come into the school to get the experience they need. I appreciate the decision was taken at the conference and it probably cannot row back on it for a few months until April 2014. In this case, a teaching principal is in the classroom but there many cases similar to Castlehaven around the country. It is not holding Castlehaven back very much. It was the county finalist in County Cork for two years running. Its achievements are massive. I will use this opportunity to congratulate the Castlehaven team on being the Cork county senior football champions again this year. I am glad to add that Deputy Martin's Nemo Rangers were the victims this time. On a serious note, this is a school and community that deserve the breaks as do many schools and communities throughout the land. I hope the Minister of State will pledge here that he and the Minister will make contact with the union to address this issue.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I appeal to the INTO to reconsider the position it has adopted. As Deputy Jim Daly pointed out, no displacement would occur in the context of having these JobBridge teachers in schools across the country. In the context of 1,400 new teachers being appointed next year, I think the INTO would and should draw the conclusion that we are very serious about enhancing opportunities for newly qualified teachers and indeed minimising the worst effects of the harsh winds of recession on the education sector as best we can. The Minister and I will ask the INTO to take a more lenient view of teachers who engage in the process and who would actively allow a JobBridge intern to be recruited to their schools between now and its next conference where it will, hopefully, have the opportunity to overturn this decision.

Child Protection Issues

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me the opportunity to raise the topic with my colleagues and I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality for being here in person. I think the Minister will agree with all of us that this is an unbelievably appalling scenario that has played out in front of our eyes in the past number of days. In the short amount of time allotted to me, I wish to make two main points.

The first relates to the independence of the inquiry that needs to take place and what happens to the report when it is given to the Ombudsman for Children. Will it be published and will we be able to dig deep into the reasons this was allowed to happen? I am willing to accept the bona fides of the gardaí and the HSE to a certain extent. I hope the Minister will agree with me that what is really at the core of this episode and circus is a pure, raw, naked and poisonous racism that lies at the heart of Irish society. This goes across the political system and into journalism, the gardaí and the HSE. We are willing to believe the worst of some of the communities that live in this land, most notably the Roma and Traveller communities. There are journalists and politicians who will not be involved in these investigations and will probably not appear in whatever report is produced on this situation who have significant questions to answer about the climate of fear and the undermining and dehumanising of communities that is taking place day in, day out in daily newspapers and our television screens that makes people in this country believe the worst of the Roma and Traveller communities and many other communities in this State. I will read out a line from a journalist from the Irish Independent who wrote a scurrilous piece about the Roma community recently. I must apologise for my language. The journalist discussed an encounter with a member of the Roma community. The article included the line "cue the usual bullshit you get from the Roma any time you challenge them – lots of spitting and evil-eye finger pointing". The article went on to state that:

But if we allow the Roma, or the indigenous junkies, to completely sap our native instinct to dip into our pocket when we see someone who is in a bad way then we won't just have lost one of the better aspects of our nature. We shall have given it away.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

I have indulged the Deputy but his time is up.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I understand that my time is short and my colleagues want to come in. My two points relate to the independent nature of the investigation but also the responsibility of journalistic and political representatives to whom I may refer afterwards who are at the heart of this racism that is at the heart of this problem.

Deputy Clare Daly

The Tánaiste advised us this morning that we cannot jump to conclusions in respect of these horrendous cases and I agree. That said, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the evidence presented is that racial profiling occurred and these children were taken from their parents for one reason only - they were Roma and did not look like their parents. I sincerely believe that if they had been the adopted Vietnamese children of white parents, there is no way this would have happened. Both the Minister on the radio this morning and the Tánaiste have attempted to downplay the seriousness of what has happened here on the basis of the failure of the State to act in previous cases of concern regarding child welfare. It is clear that the State did fail previously and in other instances behaved in an over-the-top manner but the reality is that procedures have been put in place to deal with precisely these scenarios. In this case, the procedures were not followed. All the procedures say that the children should remain with their parents except in very exceptional circumstances but in this case, the last resort became the first option. This has been and will be deeply traumatic for the children and parents involved. An Irish pensioner who tearfully contacted my office this morning had been taken into care decades ago and still lives with that trauma.

Will the Minister give an unreserved apology to the families at the heart of this debacle? Will he commit to an independent investigation into what happened? Can he comment on the coincidence that his Department has been criticised by the EU for its lack of progress on Roma and Traveller integration? Is it not in some way culpable?

Is there a case to answer about the media frenzy and irresponsible journalism that took place? It has been clear for some time that elements in the Garda at senior level are feeding their pet poodles in the media. Will the Minister investigate this and take action in that regard? Finally and critically, is he aware that information on the records of Traveller children, some of whom are as young as 16 days old, are being input and updated on the PULSE system and what is he going to do about that type of racial profiling?

Deputy Denis Naughten

These two incidents are extremely serious and the investigations that the Minister has instigated are warranted. In particular, the incidents have had a terrible impact on two vulnerable children. However, we cannot forget the backdrop to this situation. In the past decade, more than 500 children have disappeared from HSE accommodation, some of whom were traced to brothels. Six out of seven of those children were never traced and are still missing. The trafficking of children for labour and sexual exploitation goes on around us. It is modern day slavery. The traffickers are now turning to Irish children. A recent report from the US State Department noted that Ireland is a destination, source and transit country for women, men and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labour. It went on to point out that the number of identified Irish children subjected to sex trafficking within this country has increased. No words can adequately describe the horror of trafficking children for sexual exploitation or labour but it is happening around us in this country. I hope the controversy that has arisen will be thoroughly investigated and that the reports will be published but this should not divert us from the need to identify and prosecute traffickers, and to put them out of business.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What happened this week to two Roma and their families in Tallaght and Athlone is most disturbing. It is especially disturbing to all in these Houses who have long campaigned for children's rights and protections, and who invested considerable time and effort in realising a child protection system that is fit for purpose and in which we can all have confidence. What happened in these cases is a far cry from what we expect from the State's child services. Against a backdrop of what can only be described as despicable newspaper coverage, children were taken from their homes in what appears to be a naked and blunt case of racial profiling. Under the Child Care Act 1991, gardaí must have reasonable grounds for believing there is an immediate and serious risk to the child. On the basis of the information we have at present, this does not appear to be the case. If such a risk did exist, surely all of the children would have been removed from these families not just those with blonde hair and blue eyes. The speed of the intervention in these cases stands in marked contrast to the response times in many others, as highlighted last week by the Ombudsman for Children.

What were the reasonable grounds to believe that the children in these cases were at risk or in danger? Why were only the children whose physical appearance was difference from that of their parents removed from their family homes? Could the required tests not have been carried out without taking the children from their homes and parents?

It is not appropriate for the HSE and the Garda to be investigating themselves on such an important matter. We should not be waiting for their reports before the Ombudsman for Children takes direct responsibility for investigating these incidents. An independent inquiry from the outset is the best way to get the answers and the Ombudsman, Emily Logan, should be engaged with immediate effect.

Deputy Billy Timmins

For an individual, whether a child or an adult, to be removed from his or her family home and the care of his or her family is a traumatic experience. It is even more traumatic when there is no reasonable or sufficient grounds for doing so. These incidents have been accompanied by a frenzy. However, I am of the view that the authorities probably did act in good faith and we cannot go into a frenzy in the other direction by putting the boot into the authorities. The newspaper commentary that Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned is shameful and the journalist who wrote it and the editor who permitted it to be published should be ashamed of themselves. It is a matter that should be investigated by the Press Council.

I ask the Minister why the Ombudsman for Children or the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission will not be conducting an investigation in the first instance. The area of children being taken into care is a dark one in that we have limited information about it. Can the Minister furnish us with statistics on the children taken into care under section 12 of the Child Care 1991? There is merit to holding these cases in camera but perhaps the Minister will consider the matter further because I am concerned that the in camera rule shields the authorities as opposed to protecting the identity of children. That was probably not the intention but the authorities are not open to examination.

Where is the cross-over between the responsibilities of the Ministers for Justice and Equality, Children and Youth Affairs and Health in respect of implementing the Child Care Act?

Deputy Mick Wallace

This debacle was caused by a disproportionate and unreasonable reaction on the part of the Garda and the HSE, which clearly demonstrated a lack of professionalism and an overly simplistic response to a media frenzy, to which their officials should be immune as law enforcement and health professionals. The emergency power granted to the Garda under section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 should only be used in exceptional circumstances where a garda reasonably believes that an immediate and serious risk is posed to the health or welfare of a child. It does not appear that such an emergency applied in these cases.

I am getting sick of gardaí relying on tabloid journalism for their intelligence and the manner in which information is supplied leaves much to be desired. In this instance, the Garda made decisions about child welfare based on tabloid journalism, ethnic categorisation and an unrelated case in Greece instead of rationally considering the independent evidence and the principles of reasonableness and proportionality. As law enforcement professionals they should be immune to media frenzy. The family in the Tallaght case had been living in that area for seven years and they had extensive contact with the Garda but it was only when the story about the Greece case appeared in the newspapers that an emergency operation was put in place to remove the child. As Dr. Carol Coulter pointed out last night, if the Garda was really motivated by the child's welfare rather than racial prejudice, why were the child's four siblings left behind?

The Minister's response to Garda misconduct has again been weak, similar to the penalty points controversy. Is he scared of gardaí? Do they have something on him? He has again ordered an internal review and his friend, the Garda Commissioner, has appointed another commissioner to investigate internally the force's malpractice and misconduct rather than a human rights expert with experience in racial issues. This is contrary to the type of independent review called for by Pavee Point and the Irish Traveller Movement. An independent public inquiry is required instead of the HSE and the Garda reviewing themselves. An internal review by gardaí of the conduct of gardaí is not going to be impartial and will not meet constitutional standards of fairness. We need to accept the fact that the Garda is not outside the law and no law enforcement force anywhere in the world should be allowed to self-regulate. It is disappointing that the Minister does not intend to publish these reports. It is another example of the lack of transparency and accountability in the Garda. I do not understand why the Minister is so unwilling to hold the force to account.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank the Deputies for raising a very important issue. There has, of course, been understandable public interest in two cases which have come to light in recent days involving children with Roma families. As I have stated already, we are all pleased and relieved that the concerns that arose on the part of the authorities in these two cases have proved to be unfounded and that the children have been reunited with their families, where they belong. I am, as we all are, particularly conscious of the regrettable distress that arose for the two families and their children. I want to state again, quite clearly, that no fault of any nature attaches to the two families concerned.

It is important that we all remember the context in which these cases have arisen, where concerns have been expressed by members of the public in regard to the protection of individual children. Child protection is a most complex and sensitive issue and I am sure Deputies will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the detail of individual child protection cases and that I cannot depart from that practice simply because of the particular circumstances of the cases under discussion. That being said, I think it important that I make a number of points.

An Garda Síochána and the HSE have to deal with very difficult situations and have to make very difficult decisions when dealing with issues of child protection. They can be open to criticism for either doing something or criticism for doing nothing. We are all aware of cases in the past where the authorities have been criticised for not intervening to protect children at risk. In each of these cases, the authorities responded in good faith to concerns expressed to them.

The law provides clear powers for An Garda Síochána and the HSE where it is believed that a child may be in danger. The courts are also involved in making the appropriate decisions. Urgent procedures are available, and indeed necessary, to ensure that the safety of a child can be assured while appropriate inquiries are being made. Such actions by the authorities are inevitably distressing for parents. However, the Garda and the HSE are faced with the reality that not invoking the procedures could involve taking a risk with the safety of a child. This is the difficult and complex reality these front-line staff face when they have to make such decisions based on the information they have at that time.

In each of these cases, the gardaí responded in good faith to concerns reported to them. I am conscious that the events under discussion took place against a backdrop of events which took place outside this State. In seeking to ensure that the welfare of children is fully and properly safeguarded and that every child in this State is afforded, where necessary, the protection of the State, it is of vital importance that no group or minority community is singled out for unwarranted attention or, indeed, suspicion in regard to child protection issues. Neither is it in any way acceptable that families or individuals are in any way treated differently because of their ethnic backgrounds or religious faiths. Neither can or should be a factor in determining when child care intervention is required.

It is regrettable that, in the context of calling for an independent inquiry, a number of the contributors to this debate have already reached conclusions. The conclusions they have reached are that there was racism involved and that the Garda is involved in racial profiling. One cannot call for an independent inquiry and, at the same time, reach conclusions and give the reasons for why events have occurred. Let me be absolutely clear in this - I would regard racial profiling as utterly unacceptable. Indeed, I have spent a substantial period of time as Minister for Justice and Equality in dealing with the issue of racism across Europe. We made it a particular issue during the Irish Presidency.

It is of substantial importance that gardaí only intervene pursuant to section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 where there are reasonable grounds for believing that there are immediate risks to the safely and welfare of a child. It is important to ascertain what lessons can be learned from these cases. That is why I have requested the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána to provide me with a full report on the background circumstances that led to each of these children being taken into care and the procedures that were followed. My colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, has similarly asked for a full report from the HSE.

This is not about, as Deputy Wallace wishes to allege, the Garda or the HSE investigating itself. This is what is known as good practice. One asks the two bodies to provide, within a short period of time, a detailed report on what has occurred, and then one refers it to an independent individual to take what steps are required. The House will be aware that the Ombudsman for Children has the function of promoting the rights and welfare of children. The legislation specifies that this function includes monitoring and reviewing generally the operation of legislation concerning matters that relate to the rights and welfare of children. In addition, the Ombudsman may be requested to give advice to Ministers on any matter. Against this background, we propose to provide the Ombudsman with the reports prepared by the Health Service Executive and An Garda Síochána and ask her to examine what occurred. She will independently - I emphasise independently - carry out this function and be free to raise any question of relevance with regard to the events that occurred and also to engage with the parents of the children who were temporarily taken into care. I have already had preliminary discussions with the Ombudsman for Children and I understand she has been contacted by the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald's Department. I have been assured by the Garda authorities that they will, of course, co-operate fully with any inquiry she wishes to make and will respond fully to any inquiry that she may make. I have no doubt that this will be the case in relation to the HSE as well.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

The Minister has gone over time.

Deputy Alan Shatter

If I could adequately answer in conclusion the questions that have been raised. Deputy Timmins raised the issue of in camera proceedings. There are amendments made to the Courts Act that went through the House before the end of July that will ensure that we have greater transparency when there are child care cases before our courts. That transparency will provide protection still for the anonymity of individuals and the anonymity of children in the best interests of children.

A further issue that I am concerned about that Deputies have raised-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

The Minister has gone very much over time.

Deputy Alan Shatter

-----is the extent to which matters relating to these two cases appeared in newspapers. That is a matter that will be the subject of the inquiry that is being made. It will be a matter, I have no doubt, that the Ombudsman for Children will address. We must ensure that when intervention is taken in any child care matter in the best interests of children, the anonymity of the child and of the family is preserved in the best interests of children while also in the future having maximum transparency with regard to court proceedings so that there is a full public understanding of the manner in which our courts deal with this matter. I will perhaps come back to one or two questions I did not have time to deal with in my further response.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

There will be another opportunity. Each Member has one minute to raise a question or make a brief comment.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I am not a member of the Roma community, but if I was, I would not trust anyone at the moment - the Garda, the HSE, any politician and certainly not a journalist, particularly as I would have been portrayed in recent months as some sort of subspecies, demanding of Irish society that the worst be thought of me. This is why it is so crucial that we get this investigation right. If we want the Roma community, the Traveller community or any disadvantaged or marginalised community to feel as if it belongs in this Republic, its members must see transparency and accountability. They must believe in the system and there must be a level of independence. If we get this wrong, I fear for the future of this country and the potential integration of the Roma community in this Republic. If it is happening to Roma today, it will happen to someone else tomorrow.

I plead with the Minister. We could be at a crossroads in our relations with the Roma community and many other communities that live in this Republic. If they do not believe in the State's institutions and if those institutions let them down this time, we will regret it in the years to come and we will deserve all that we get.

Deputy Clare Daly

The Minister accused this side of the House of predetermining the outcome of an independent inquiry. He did the same when he stated as fact that the Garda had acted in good faith. We do not know that yet. The Minister has again attempted to minimise the situation. He will not get away with it. He is using people's legitimate concerns about child safety to undermine and mask the seriousness of what has happened, which can only be explained by racism. I say this because the clearly defined procedure for dealing with child welfare issues was not followed. The HSE was not invoked and a court hearing did not take place before the children were removed. The only evidence that we have heard is that the child did not look like the parents.

The Minister recognises that the media has a role in this matter. I will ask him two simple questions. Gardaí leaking information to the media has become a staple diet. It is a criminal activity.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

The Deputy should ask her second question.

Deputy Clare Daly

Will the Minister take action to deal with this scenario? He stated that racial profiling was not acceptable. Will he confirm to the House that he was not privy to information about gardaí uploading information about Traveller infants to the PULSE system, that it has not taken place and that he has had the matter investigated? It is all part of the same process.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I welcome the fact that the Minister is investigating the leaks and the media coverage of this matter. It is imperative that we get answers to those issues.

I will echo the comments made by Deputy Timmins.

The background to this is the trafficking of children. We know that our laws need to be modernised concerning the exploitation and trafficking of children. Some 13 years ago, Ireland signed the Protocol on the Sale of Children, Child Prostitution and Child Pornography, but when will we ratify it?

This particular incident highlights the need for the proper training and resourcing of An Garda Síochána. Will such training be provided to gardaí to enable them to identify vulnerable children and trafficked children, thus ensuring we can secure prosecutions?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I fail to understand why we would hold back or defer the involvement of the Ombudsman for Children, or any other independent office that would take on the responsibility of investigating these instances. The Ombudsman for Children is an appropriate office whose expertise and focus could be directed on this matter with immediate effect. Let us not cod ourselves. The Garda Síochána and the HSE will carry out their own internal inquiries in any case. Why should we delay? It would inject a greater urgency into both the HSE and Garda Síochána's efforts to explore in full and internally what has happened in these cases.

I appeal to the Minister to follow up on the contacts with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children to initiate her immediate inquiry into this matter. That is what is required given the seriousness of what has taken place. I hope that her remit will go beyond that of investigating the role of the Garda Síochána and the HSE, to include the serious matter of the media's disposition concerning such sections of our wider community in this country today. In this regard, some of what is currently presented as journalism is reprehensible.

I hope the critical questions that we have put on the record will be answered. These concern the issues of reasonable grounds, why the other children were not taken into care, and whether the tests could not have been carried out without removing the children from their homes.

Deputy Billy Timmins

I want to find out the truth about this situation as much as anybody else in this House. On many occasions with which we are familiar, various State authorities have acted unethically and unlawfully. It would be slightly hypocritical of us on this side of the House if we were to castigate the bad treatment of both families in this situation by equally castigating the authorities that dealt with them. I work on the premise that the authorities of this State operate in good faith until such time as I am shown otherwise. That does not mean, however, that they should not be open to scrutiny and examination. It is important we have confidence in this State's authorities which, by and large, operate in a correct manner.

These two cases have come to light but have similar cases occurred in recent years? If that information is available, I would like the Minister to provide it. I would like to know if something similar has happened whereby other children have been taken into care without a basis for doing so.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Much like the penalty points controversy, the Minister says he will send the results of an already constitutionally flawed and biased investigation to the children's Ombudsman for review. The children's Ombudsman will only be reviewing a biased report, which is not primary evidence, and she cannot ask questions. This is entirely unsatisfactory. The Minister and his PR machine are attempting to impart a sheen of legitimacy to this flawed approach by asking for the children's Ombudsman's stamp of approval on another internal review.

Likewise, the Minister is not publishing the terms of reference. It would appear again that the focus of the review is narrow. It is just wide enough to satisfy the public, but not enough to cause any real change within the culture of the Garda Síochána.

I am sure the Minister is well aware that in February 2013, the report of the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance found that the Garda Síochána engages in racial profiling. The commission called on the Irish Government to introduce legislation to prohibit racial profiling. This is an opportunity for the State and the Garda Síochána to initiate a Stephen Lawrence type of inquiry and to assess the conduct, codes and protocols of the Garda Síochána.

In his book on human rights and policing, Professor Dermot Walsh states that we cannot say whether Garda codes, practices and procedures are human rights compliant because these codes and protocols are not published. Professor Walsh said there is a need for cultural change, transparency, accountability to the public and human rights compliance in the Garda Síochána. Is the Minister brave enough, and does he have the courage, to bring this about?

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is most unfortunate that on a very serious issue relating to child protection we are subjected to Deputies Clare Daly and Wallace engaging in their usual obsessive attacks to entirely undermine public confidence in An Garda Síochána. The Deputies cannot make up their minds if they want to protect children or just attack An Garda Síochána. This is a serious area of children protection. Section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 provides an important instrument to ensure that where children are at immediate risk, the Garda can intervene. On occasions when intervention takes place, not all the information is known. The reason we have a courts system is so that once there has been an intervention, matters can be addressed in the Children's Court and issues can be properly clarified.

In the context of these two cases, I am making no prejudgments, as the Deputies are.

Deputy Mick Wallace

We are not.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I do not have an agenda which is to denigrate the Garda, nor do I have an agenda to defend something that is indefensible. I am not going to ask the children's Ombudsman to exercise independent oversight, look into this matter independently, and jump to conclusions before she does so. It is a gross misrepresentation, but it suits the Deputy's narrative, to suggest that gardaí are being asked to investigate themselves and that, as Deputy Wallace put it, the children's Ombudsman is being asked to rubber-stamp that investigation.

The Garda is being asked, as the HSE is being asked by my colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, to provide a full and detailed report on the background of what occurred. These reports will be given to the Ombudsman for Children who will be free to ask any questions of any nature that are relevant to what has occurred and to report and make recommendations. That is the correct and appropriate way to go. Is anyone in this House suggesting the Ombudsman for Children will do anything other than act independently, appropriately and in a manner on which we can rely?

I will deal with other issues quickly. I am conscious of Deputy Naughten's interest in these areas, but he has said twice in this House that the background to these matters is the trafficking of children. The trafficking of children is an issue about which I have had a great concern for a long time. As Minister I have been doing whatever I can to address that area. We cannot assume, however, that the background to these cases had anything to do with the trafficking of children. In fairness to the two families, no one has suggested that they are in any way trafficking children. I ask people to be careful of the language they are using. I presume that was not the Deputy's intent.

Deputy Denis Naughten

No, it was not my intention.

Deputy Alan Shatter

In the area of trafficking children, section 12 of the Child Care Act, which allows the immediate intervention by An Garda Síochána, is crucial. There are many cases in which the Garda, in consultation with the HSE, intervenes to protect children.

Deputy Timmins asked for statistics. I can provide data on the use of section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991. In 2010, there were 728 instances of it being utilised to protect children at immediate risk. In 2011, the figure was 751, in 2012, it was 764, and to date in 2013, it has been 582.

Deputy Ó Caoláin and the Tánaiste are right that in these two particular cases there are questions to be answered. This is why we are travelling this route. As Minister, I have questions that I want answered.

Deputy Clare Daly

The Minister will not give the answers.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I will not undermine in any way the credibility of the important role the Garda generally plays in the area of child protection, in consultation with the HSE.

They are somewhere between a rock and a hard place. If there is a report of a child at risk and they do not intervene and something goes wrong the Garda are criticised. Equally, if there is a report of a child at risk and they do intervene and it proves to be the case that the report was inaccurate the Garda are criticised. It is important we deal with this in a considered and temperate way. I look forward to the Ombudsman for Children engaging on this matter, raising each and every question of relevance and, ultimately, publicly reporting.

Deputy Clare Daly

Will the Minister answer the question about his knowledge of racial profiling of Traveller children on the PULSE system?

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Minister only answers the questions he wants to answer.

Deputy Clare Daly

It is directly relevant.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

We are moving on to Topical Issue No. 3.

Deputy Clare Daly

Will the Minister answer the question in regard to racial profiling of Traveller children on the PULSE system and his knowledge in that regard?

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Minister is complicit.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Both Deputies are a disgrace.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Joe O'Reilly)

We have concluded that matter. I call Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy.

Job Creation

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity of raising this important issue. I welcome that the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, is here to hear my concerns.

EJ Cavanaghs in Birr was a well known employer for many decades. It was a family owned iron foundry business which manufactured manhole covers and drainage grates for the construction industry. In 2000, it was taken over by an American company called EJ and is now known as EJ Ireland Access Solutions Limited. It is also a family owned business and has taken an inclusive approach in ensuring that the company grew and developed. Sadly, when it began to lose money owing to the decline in the construction industry it took the difficult decision to enter into consultation with 32 of its workers with a view to downsizing the operation. The 32 people concerned are young skilled workers, many of whom have young families. Having met on Monday last with management I know how difficult this decision was for them and the owners. I sympathise with the road they have to go down over the next couple of weeks.

I accept this decision cannot be reversed. We are all aware of the decline in the construction industry over the past number years and the knock-on effect this has had on other areas. I am anxious to ensure that every effort is made by the Government and its agencies to assist the company and, should the result of the consultation process be redundancy, the redundant workers. It now appears this may well be the case. These people should be provided with the advice and training required to help them re-enter the workforce. The people concerned are hard workers who know the benefits of work to them, their families, their communities and the local economy. Thirty-two jobs may not be a lot to people living in built up urban areas. However, 32 jobs in a small community is equivalent to 300 jobs in a larger area. The knock-on effect of these job losses will be significant.

The midlands region has many small and medium enterprises skilled in manufacturing and engineering. While I welcome the positive benefits of the efforts of Government in terms of job creation during the past couple of years, the jobs secured have in the main been in built-up and satellite areas in the larger cities like Limerick, Cork and Dublin. There is a need for a regional enterprise strategy to provide the regional counties with the opportunities they deserve. The unemployment rate in Offaly is higher than average and it has the second lowest disposable income in the country. We have moved to decision-making based on evidence. There is evidence to suggest that action is urgently required in Offaly. Offaly is also home to the highest percentage of workers in the industrial sector. Again, this points to the fact that urgent action will be needed.

I am anxious to hear what IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are doing for Offaly. Tullamore is a gateway town and Birr, which is not too far from Tullamore, has good connectivity and accessibility to all of the major motorways. It is also located in the centre of the country. I would welcome concentrated and urgent attention being given to the preparation of a regional enterprise plan so that Offaly and other regional counties experiencing decline will get their fair crack of the whip and the jobs they so badly need as a result of the downturn.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Sean Sherlock)

I thank Deputy Corcoran Kennedy for raising this issue. I share her concern in relation to the jobs being lost at EJ Ireland Access Solutions Limited, formerly EJ Cavanaghs.

IDA Ireland notified the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on 21 October that EJ Ireland Access Solutions Limited is currently engaged with workers regarding a restructuring proposal, which will result in the loss of 32 jobs. The company currently employs 51 people. The company has been impacted by the collapse of the constructionsector within Ireland, which was its primary market. The company will retain 18 staff at the Birr plant to deal primarily with sales, marketing, distribution and steel fabrication. It has had to review its business structures due to the collapse of construction activity in the Irish market. Ireland was its primary market when its sales peaked in 2008. Exports at that time accounted for less than 5%. However, at year end 2012, company exports accounted for 30% of its revenue. More and more companies are engaging in this type of restructuring, with companies looking strategically at opportunities in the global market and taking steps, unfortunately, such as making people redundant, in order to position themselves for future growth.

The proposed redundancies in Birr are part of adjustments the company is making to meet the evolving needs of the business and to remain competitive in a challenging global environment. IDA Ireland will remain in ongoing contact with the company. Owing to the downturn, all businesses face competitiveness issues, including the manufacturing and services sector. It is clear that, arising from greater globalisation, reduction of tariff barriers and the ease of transporting goods, the nature of industry and the location of specialisations will be changing. The Government's action plan for jobs is a key part of the process. We are endeavouring to create the right environment for additional job creation. While employment levels in the manufacturing sector have fallen, in common with every other industrialised country in Europe, we still have 205,000 people directly employed in manufacturing and, when account is taken of indirect employment, this means about 400,000 people depend on manufacturing for a livelihood in Ireland.

Last year, the Minister, Deputy Bruton, initiated two research projects, one by Forfás entitled Making it Happen - Manufacturing 2020 and the other by the expert group on future skills entitled, The Future Skills Needs of the Manufacturing Sector to 2020. Both of these reports complement each other and will assist Government in reaching the target of creating an additional 20,000 jobs in manufacturing by 2016. The private sector has created 3,000 jobs per month over recent times and we hope to build on this positive trend. IDA Ireland is continuing its efforts to attract FDI to this area and the midlands region. There are currently 11 IDA supported companies operating in County Offaly. In 2012, there were nine IDA site visits to the midlands region and three visits to County Offaly. The Deputy will appreciate that while the IDA makes strenuous efforts to attract multinational companies to specific regions, the ultimate decisions on whether to visit and subsequently locate are matters for the companies concerned. In 2012, Enterprise Ireland had 79 client companies in County Offaly, employing over 2,600 people in full time jobs and 56 client companies in North Tipperary, employing over 2,100 people in full time jobs. Enterprise Ireland paid over €1 million to its client companies in County Offaly in 2012 and has paid over €750,000 to date in 2013. The corresponding figures for North Tipperary were over €2.7 million in 2012 and over €500,000 to date in 2013.

In terms of new initiatives for job creation in counties Offaly and north Tipperary, Enterprise Ireland activity is focused on the creation of new jobs through continuing to work with established companies in its portfolio. Enterprise Ireland is part of a local inter-agency committee which is developing a new promotional and information portal for Tipperary, www.Tipperary.com.

In addition, Offaly County Enterprise Board and Tipperary North County Enterprise Board have taken a proactive approach, together with a range of services and supports for people considering self-employment. These services are of course available to any EJ employee considering self-employment.

I do not wish to provide political platitudes. I do not know the company or the people personally. Deputy Corcoran Kennedy knows these people; they are her own people. We sympathise with them on the loss of these jobs and we will do everything through our State agencies to try to replenish them with the supports that are available.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank the Minister of State for his response. It is heartening to hear about the efforts being made by the IDA and Enterprise Ireland in Offaly and in the wider region. I am very interested in the pieces of research that are being conducted. I look forward to hearing what the manufacturing development forum identify as the skills that are needed for businesses in the future, because that will be critical in developing new training for people, and to encourage people into the type of courses at third level that will be required. I welcome this and I urge that the skills needs are identified as soon as possible.

The good news in all of this is that staff are being retained at the company in Birr. They will be working in the sales, marketing, distribution and steel fabrication sectors of the company. I hope the agencies there to support will help them examine what aspect of the steel fabrication business could be developed further to help grow that side of the business and to create further jobs where they are so badly needed.

I would also like to refer the Minister of State to the two other fantastic areas available for people to come and create employment, namely, the Birr Technology Centre and the Shannon Development sites, given that Shannon Development is now under the auspices of the Shannon Airport Authority. I am keen to find out what are the plans for that. Who will now be responsible for those sites, the fantastic facilities of which can be used to attract business or support local people to create businesses? It is a shame to see so much public money gone into development of these sites, particularly the Birr Technology Centre, if it is allowed to lie vacant when it could be used productively.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I acknowledge the points made by the Deputy. It is important to note that 18 jobs are still being retained and it is surviving as an entity. One hopes that it will grow over time and that the lost jobs could be clawed back. I also note the point that the Deputy makes on the other technology centres that are available. If the Deputy contacts the local agencies and Department officials about those sites, I am sure there will be a positive engagement on their potential in that region.

I acknowledge fully that these are job losses. They are going from 51 employees down to 18, which is a significant number. I understand the Deputy's point on the impact in a more rural setting than in a larger urban conurbation. If we are to have any meaningful role on renewing the manufacturing industry in this country, then it must be on the basis of balanced regional development. However, when companies decide to go to a particular region, it is ultimately a company decision. We all acknowledge in this House that a corporate decision has been made and we can only set out what is available on the ground for these companies, but they are the ultimate deciders of where they locate. However, I acknowledge the points made by the Deputy.

Semi-State Bodies Issues

Deputy Barry Cowen

Fianna Fáil has serious concerns about the proposed sale of two ESB plants in Lough Ree and west Offaly. I, Deputy Corcoran Kennedy and others in the region received an e-mail yesterday from the ESB asking that we meet with their representatives. The e-mail stated that we were to be briefed on an imminent announcement affecting our constituency. I was intrigued and expected that this would be a positive development; however, this was not the case. I was informed that as part of the Government's directive to State and semi-State bodies, the ESB was not only selling international assets in Spain and the United Kingdom, but was also proposing to sell ESB power plants in west Offaly and Lough Ree, namely, Shannonbridge in Offaly and Lanesboro in Longford. My initial reaction was one of shock because this House has never acquiesced to demands to debate the McCarthy report and its contents or recommendations. It was only by asking questions of the Government that the House received assurances on what was off the table or out of the portfolio of assets to be sold.

My immediate concern was obviously Bord na Móna, the ESB and Coillte. My county of Offaly, my constituency and the midlands region are synonymous with power generation and energy production. The sector has been challenged over the years as peat stocks were depleted and new forms of energy and tapering of fossils continued at pace. However, such change, diversification and commercial realities were met head on by the workforce, management, the then Government and political representatives of all hues. Such innovation, initiative and leadership under Fianna Fáil led to the creation of Lough Ree Power, West Offaly Power and Edenderry Power, each with the support of Bord na Móna contracts and a PSO in conjunction with EU guidelines and directives, ensuring the future of power generation in the midlands for at least 25 years from inception. That inception, in the case of Lanesboro and Shannonbridge, began in 2005 and 2006, respectively. That 25 year guarantee began in 2005 and 2006. It is now 2013, just seven and eight years later.

The Minister for Expenditure and Public Reform, Deputy Howlin, told the Dáil in May 2013 that "with regard to the ESB, there will be no sale of any power generating capacity in the Republic of Ireland, or the island of Ireland''. That commitment does not fall into the category of "Isn't that what you do in elections? or commitments made on the back of lorries in Roscommon, or outside this House to people aged over 70. That commitment was given here, and I would have thought there would have been more respect for the House. I can understand the disrespect for commitments made on lorries in Roscommon and outside the gates of Leinster House.

Be that as it may, and despite the fact that the credibility of the Minister and his Government is left severely dented by this, I now wish to ask the Minister some severe and honest questions. Can he assure the workers in respect of their contracts of employment? What happens now to their ESB pensions? If the ownership of these power plants is to be transferred, how can their pensions be transferred? Will they be defined benefit pensions or defined contribution pensions? Please let our community know what the future of the most important industry in our area will be. What will be done to ensure that employment in our area is maintained? What will be done to secure the future of energy production in Offaly and beyond? Has the Government considered a scenario where Bord na Móna would take over these plants? Would that not be a shot in the arm that the company needs? Would that not add to the sort of diversification in the energy sector that is necessary, which the Minister mentioned today when he opened a wind farm in Laois? It will allow for a competitive market which will give the consumer cheaper access to electricity. That is the commitment our region requires. That is the commitment that will allow Bord na Móna develop further and allow our region continue to be the leader in power generation in this country.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte)

I am grateful to Deputy Cowen for allowing me to answer this question. The credibility of the Government is very high in his constituency. I have just returned from there having announced measures to bring additional employment to various parts of the midlands, including in the Deputy's constituency. When he talks about the commitments given to Lanesborough and Shannonbridge in 2005 and that it is now 2013, he forgets that 2008 intervened. The year 2008 will go down as a milestone in the country's economic history and to quote Yeats, "All changed, changed utterly".

Arising from the commitment in the bailout agreement between the then Government and the troika in 2010 and following months of negotiation between the troika and the new Government, in February 2012 the Government announced its intention to consider a range of disposal options across the State sector to achieve a goal of realising proceeds of up to €3 billion. The Government indicated in July 2012 that a sale of the energy business of Bord Gáis Éireann and some of the ESB's non-strategic generation capacity would be part of the asset disposal programme.

The Government subsequently formally requested the ESB in October 2012 to develop a programme for the sale of its non-strategic generation capacity, with the objective of delivering special dividends to the Government, targeted at up to €400 million by the end of 2014.

Leaving the ESB power stations issue aside for the moment, it is important that the parameters for this issue be set out. If the original intention to raise €5 billion from the disposal of State assets had stood, it would inevitably have given rise to pressure to privatise the ESB. I am glad for a variety of reasons in the national interest that the ESB will be retained in State ownership as a vertically-integrated utility.

The ESB as a State-owned energy company has made a major contribution to Irish economic and social development. Notwithstanding growing competition in the generation and supply business, which I welcome, the ESB has been a commercial success over the years and particularly in recent years. I am referring to the assets in Britain and Spain. The sale of these assets was not expected to achieve the full amount of the required special dividend of up to €400 million and will not do so. Accordingly the ESB has now announced its intention to sell its two peat stations, West Offaly Power and Lough Ree Power. In selling these two stations, the ESB will be proposing to prospective buyers an arrangement under which it continues to operate and maintain the peat stations with existing staff. If there is any change to this, the ESB will consult with staff and unions prior to sale.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister immediately seeks to revert back to 2008, which is the stock answer to any question from this side of the House irrespective of the content of such a question. He spoke about credibility and he wants to refer to previous commitments and statements by members of various political parties. I mentioned what the Minister, Deputy Howlin, said here as recently as May. The Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, made no reference to that comment by the Minister, Deputy Howlin and his commitment that the sale of any ESB asset would not include any generation station in the Republic or on the island of Ireland. If anybody has a credibility problem, it is the Minister in that regard.

On the memorandums of understanding, I quote from a letter from the Minister, Deputy Noonan, after the first visit by the troika. He referred to the Government plan and stated, "It is important that we make effective use of our State assets and, where appropriate, dispose of them to help reduce our Government debt". That was the first occasion on which the sale of State assets was mentioned in the context of paying down debt. Therefore it is the actions of this Government which moved the State's commitment to consider possible privatisation to an ambitious programme which would help reduce Government debt. That is that issue out of the way.

If the Minister wants to have an argument and rerun the last general election campaign to raise the Labour Party's poll rating out of the ashes of 6%, that is his business. However, I am interested in looking after my constituents who asked me to raise this issue today. What commitment can the Minister give my constituents in the workforce on their pension entitlements in the first instance? Has the Government given any consideration to the role Bord na Móna can play after 2019 and 2020? It appears that what is being offered for sale has the benefit of Bord na Móna contracts and PSO commitments up to 2020 and nothing thereafter. If the Minister can answer that question properly and effectively, maybe his credibility can be restored.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is a while since I have seen anyone in the House with the bullish attitude of Deputy Cowen without having any-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Facts.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

-----facts to back him up. I can start with his last question on Bord na Móna. Bord na Móna is a commercial State company and if it wants to bid for these assets it is free to do so. However, given that the whole purpose of what we have been forced into is disposal of State assets, it would be very odd to have another State company buy the assets.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Government was not forced into it. The Minister would like to have the public believe it was forced into it for the benefit rubbishing the commitments made in the Labour Party manifesto.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has only-----

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

As recently as in the debate on the Gas Regulation Bill, I took the opportunity to put on the record of the House the origins of this issue, which are in the 2010 bailout agreement when the then Fianna Fáil-led Government agreed to the sale of State assets.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It did not agree.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

At the first meeting the incoming Government had with the troika when it advised us of the €5 billion commitment, we started negotiations. They continued for six months and instead of €5 billion, we agreed a figure of €3 billion.

Deputy Barry Cowen

That is a distortion of the facts.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Instead of the €5 billion being used to write down debt, we got a commitment that 50% of whatever proceeds were realised would go towards the creation of employment and reinvestment for productive purposes. That, unfortunately, is the history and Deputy Cowen is now trying to rewrite history.

Deputy Barry Cowen

What about the comments of the Minister, Deputy Howlin?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I will deal with the Minister, Deputy Howlin, also. What is being discussed this evening is nothing new. I have mentioned it in this House and outside it time out of number - not in naming the two stations, but naming the Government decision to dispose of the energy business of Bord Gáis Éireann and some power generation plants in the ESB. That is as old as the lifetime of the Government. The Minister, Deputy Howlin, correctly told the House that no such power generation facility would be disposed of this year, nor will that happen.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I quoted the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

As I said in my original answer, we are required to produce up to €400 million in special dividends from the ESB before the end of 2014.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Deputy has quoted a letter of the Minister, Deputy Noonan, completely out of context. On whose behalf does Deputy Cowen think the Minister, Deputy Noonan, could write other than on behalf of the Government, of which he is a member? The reason he was writing was the agreement entered into in 2010.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 24 Oct 2013