Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Dec 2013

Vol. 825 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I wish the Ceann Comhairle and those in his office and every Member of the House a happy and peaceful Christmas. I also thank the staff of all political parties, as well as the staff of the Houses for keeping this institution going and working on behalf of the people.

The Ceann Comhairle spoke about vandalism. The HSE service plan was published this week and it certainly was an act of vandalism in the sense that it was announced that there would be a service plan, but clearly it is a plan to reduce services on a massive scale in 2014. This is clear when one considers the number of hospital procedures that have had to be cancelled, the fact that BreastCheck will not be rolled out for women between the ages of 65 and 69 years, a move which will affect more that 80,000 women, and that, within the plan, the HSE has had the audacity to include a figure of €108 million to be realised at some stage in the future without any identification of from where these savings will come. We are being asked to consider a health service plan that clearly is incapable of delivering services in 2014.

The Minister for Finance and others walked in here on 15 October and published the Estimates which did not even stand up to scrutiny between the time of their publication and the publication of the HSE service plan. Within that time it was found that the savings from medical card probity measures of €113 million were a figment of somebody's imagination in government. Will the Minister agree that the HSE service plan for 2014, even before it commences on 1 January, will simply not be able to sustain any credible form of health service in the year ahead? I have pointed to procedure and Breastcheck cancellations, the provision of fewer medical cards and a massive reduction in front-line staff, all these key issues which will put huge pressure on the HSE's ability to deliver health care.

In the context of publication of the Estimates, we were informed last week by the Minister for Health that the underlying deficit was €199 million. We now find in the HSE service plan that it is €490 million. Will the Minister agree two things? First, did the Minister for Health mislead the House in the context of the underlying deficit and, second, will the Government at least do a U-turn in the rollout of BreastCheck?

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Ruairí Quinn)

First, I thank the Deputy for his expressions of seasonal goodwill which my colleagues and I on the Government benches also extend to the Deputy and other Deputies and parties represented in the House.

The Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, has a very difficult job to do and he has to be given time to do it. It is not easy. One of the issues that has been in the newspapers is the €108 million in savings that have yet to be identified but which will be so identified within the context of the Haddington Road agreement. Some have suggested the figure of €108 million will not form part of the overall savings to be achieved under the Haddington Road agreement. I want to say very clearly that this is not the case. The amount of €108 million is and always has been an integral part of the overall savings target in the health sector. The Government expects full implementation of the Haddington Road agreement in all sectors, including health.

On the other matters raised by the Deputy, the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, will come into the House in due course but not today, when the clarifications have been made of the matters included in the HSE service plan and-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

He has had two months in which to do so.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

-----the Deputy, as his party's spokeperson on health, will have ample time to go through the details with him, having regard to the fact that it was his party leader who established the HSE in the first place.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The problem I have with the Minister's reply is I do not think he believes it. Nobody in government believes the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, no more than I on this side of the House. The reason I do not believe him is that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform have insisted on assisting him in compiling the Estimates. His credibility is already shattered on this side of the House, but even within the Cabinet the Taoiseach, by his own admission, has said he has to go and try to help the Minister to run the Department. The difficulty we have is that there are unidentified savings of €108 million that we are being asked to assume will not have an impact on services, but, clearly, they will have a detrimental impact on them. If one goes through the full health Estimates and the HSE service plan, they are just not sustainable from the get go. Clearly, they will not be capable of delivering basic services.

We have heard time and again about the issues with medical cards, discretionary medical cards, the cancellation of procedures and people waiting inordinate time just to see a consultant. The Minister is now saying that next year will be a challenging one; it will not be a challenging year for the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, but it will be massively challenging for the many hundreds of thousands who will need to access health services in 2014.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy, please, put his supplementary question as he is over time?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

I ask one more time if the Minister agrees that the HSE service plan will not be able to deliver a sustainable service next year having regard to the cuts already identified, or that we will back again next January, February or March highlighting issues with medical cards, waiting times, hospital procedure cancellations and the like. Did the Minister for Health mislead the House with regard to the Estimate figure of €199 million?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

No, as I said, the Minister for Health has probably got the most difficult job in the country, certainly in the Cabinet, in managing one of the largest spending Departments, with which the Deputy is familiar, one which, in many respects, is at the mercy of demand-led services which, in some cases, are very hard to predict. I have every confidence in the Minister that he will meet the targets set out in the Health Service Executive's service plan.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

Did the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, mislead the House?

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister has time to answer that question, but he does not want to answer it.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Somebody misled the House.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy's party misrepresented the country.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

We were misled, full stop.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputies.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Deputy Billy Kelleher had the opportunity to speak. Will he now allow me the chance to do so?

I also avail of the opportunity to extend Christmas wishes to all Members of the House, the Ceann Comhairle and the staff, including support staff. I would also like us to spare a thought for those Members of the Houses who are unwell. I am thinking of our own Deputy Nicky McFadden but also Senator Jimmy Harte who I believe is still in hospital. I am sorry if I have left others out, but I would particularly like us to join together in extending the warmest greetings to both of them at this time.

The Minister probably thought when he saw that Deputy Billy Kelleher and I were taking Leaders' Questions they would be on the same subject, but they are not.

I want to address housing need and homelessness because of the time of year. I hope we can find some common accord on it. On 7 February 2002, the Minister's colleague, who is now Tánaiste and leader of his party, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, said in this House:

The Government's housing policy has been a disgrace, testified to by the fact there were 26,000 applicants on local authority lists when it took office... I estimate there are about 60,000 families on local authority waiting lists... It is time the Minister of State, the Minister and the Government were swept from office and a Government elected which will deal with the housing crisis.

I fully agreed with Deputy Eamon Gilmore when he made those remarks in the House. How do the Minister's colleagues, particularly Labour Party Ministers, stand over the fact that the housing waiting list is some 90,000 families across the State, which is 30,000 family units more than when Deputy Eamon Gilmore made those remarks about the previous Government? It is an area of great concern to many people. The Labour Party quite rightly condemned the failure of the previous Governments to build local authority housing and its almost total dependence on the private rented sector and rent supplement in order to cater to the needs of people who could not afford their own homes. Does the Minister accept this Government has continued with a similar approach and there has been a failure to address in a real and substantive way the housing need and homelessness that presents up and down the length and breadth of the country in our cities and towns and across rural Ireland? Does the Minister not accept the public moneys expended on rent supplement would be better employed adding to a fund to create a new public housing stock to meet the needs of our people and be part of the assets of our State to meet the needs of future generations?

Some €400 million was expended in rent supplement in 2013. There is unquestionably a need but there is not the address of some 90,000 family units across the State. I appeal to the Minister and his colleagues in both parties in government to recognise that this is a most serious issue that needs urgent address. At the earliest point in the new year, the Government should pledge to address it in the way it must be grappled with. There is no excuse for the continuation of a piecemeal approach, with piddling little efforts here and there. We need a substantial public housing building programme to meet the needs of those who have housing need. This could be part of the generation of a new impetus in the economy.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Deputy for the expression of goodwill extended to me and my colleagues and, in particular, his recognition of colleagues who are not well. He mentioned a Deputy and a Senator and perhaps there are others. It is a sentiment I completely support and I thank him for raising it.

I share the Deputy's concern, as does the Labour Party, about what has happened to the public housing sector, its destruction under section 5 and the reliance on rent supplement that has driven so many people into a difficult situation. We had discussions in the Parliamentary Labour Party about the matter, as other parties have had. Turning around the system is taking time. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government are working closely together. It is expected 5,000 units will be made available this year, which is a small sum relative to the figure quoted. The representatives from all Dublin constituencies will be appalled at the practice in the Dublin area of local authority apartments being boarded up and awaiting maintenance while there are people who would happily occupy them and would do them up themselves. The Minister of State is in talks with the Dublin City Council officials. This is largely a Dublin City Council matter although other local authorities have some rented apartments. We must get a more efficient way of utilising property that is not being properly utilised. I will bring the comments of the Deputy to the attention of the Minister of State because we share a similar approach to the matter.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister cited a figure of 5,000 units. Would that it were the case that we have the certainty of this promise. My colleague, Deputy Dessie Ellis, has been pursuing the matter with the Minister and his Department but we can get no certainty, facts or detail on where the apartments or houses are to be constructed. Is there any decision on such a roll-out? It is an inadequate figure in any event and the potential is so much greater. The figures I have cited relate to an even larger problem because people cannot get on housing lists. This applies to people with no income, those without a valid lease for where they live and the added problem of rent supplement, which is needed in some cases. The increases in rent in the city, some 7.8% over the course of the year, puts people outside the qualification thresholds for rent supplement. In this situation, many landlords do not co-operate with tenants in properly accounting for the relationship. Is the Minister aware that the director of advocacy for Focus Ireland, someone who he knows well personally and who is a former general secretary of the Labour Party, has described the Government's promised provision of housing units as "quite clearly a totally inadequate response to the scale of the problem we've got"? The Minister should not take it from me but from someone who embraces his own politics as warmly as any of his colleagues in the House. Can the Minister please utilise the opportunity of this last sitting before Christmas to give people in real housing need and the homeless of our State, some real prospect that the Government will address the issue in a real and substantive way as early in 2014 as is practical?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and I share his concern. We are grappling with one thing many Administrations tried to do and found very difficult, to transfer to local authorities from the Department of Social Protection responsibility for the housing supplement so that one body deals with the area. Many have argued for it, including the body the Deputy cited. I will bring to the attention of the Minister of State and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the concerns expressed and I thank the Deputy for raising them.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I join with all Members in the Christmas and new year's greetings, particularly to the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including the ushers, caterers, clerical and administrative staff who serve and support us.

The right to keep a roof over their heads and to continue to live in their family homes is one of the most cherished aspirations of the Irish people and people the world over. I make no apology for returning to the question of families being bullied out of their homes or legally compelled to leave by banks bailed out by the Irish people. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have refused to answer the question in recent times and I appeal to the Minister to address the question and answer it. It is very straightforward and I appeal to the Ceann Comhairle to ensure the Minister answers the question. For thousands of people, the fear of losing the family home is palpable and traumatic. It is giving rise to serious mental health issues. People fear the sight of the postman in case he or she has the dreaded letter from the bank demanding the sale or repossession of the family home. Since I raised the issue a fortnight ago, the rating agency, Fitch Ratings, has borne out my contention that up to 30,000 families face the loss of their homes under the insolvency arrangements put in place by the Government.

Fitch puts the figure at 26,000 families on the basis of information given to the company directly by the banks. We are talking about people on low incomes whose only asset is a family home. They have fully engaged with lenders but have no disposable income.

This argument is widely accepted by people engaged in the mortgage distress area, such as the advocacy group New Beginnings, the free legal aid centres, the Phoenix project in Portlaoise, Grant Thornton and various personal insolvency practitioners across the country. New Beginnings has 1,000 distressed mortgage applications from people who see no way out except for bankruptcy. Grant Thornton has a similar figure and when it studied 1,000 cases, it saw that up to 50% faced bankruptcy.

I want to ask a question I have already posed to the Taoiseach in the past couple of weeks. Does the Minister accept there is a serious problem and there are thousands of families on low incomes, below the minimum living expenses, who cannot avail of the insolvency process and who are facing the loss of the family home? What does the Government intend to do about that?

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I agree with the Deputy in that we should extend our best wishes and appreciation to all members of the staff for the way in which this House runs so efficiently. With regard to the Deputy's first question, my answer is "Yes", and I accept that we have a problem. We have known that from the very beginning and since we came into government. It was one of the many problems we inherited from the previous disastrous Administration.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

The Government is there three years now. It is time it did something.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Fianna Fáil took 14 years to make a mess of the issue so I would not rush if I were the Deputy.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Minister wants to go to Brussels in order to get rid of it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Perhaps the Deputy wants to go too.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

In respect to the Deputy's second question, I accept that thousands of families are currently living in fear, and people in my constituency are struggling with the issue. As there has been a de facto moratorium on house building over the past number of years, there has been a significant increase in house rents, as Deputy Ó Caoláin noted. That has happened across the country and not just in the greater Dublin area, Cork and Limerick. We are trying to ensure, through massive change in the area of insolvency and mortgages, that systems can be worked out by families and lending institutions, including the two main banks, which have been massively recapitalised by the taxpayers in this country. That was so the banks could do what they were supposed to in this area.

Deputy Barry Cowen

We are getting that back in July, according to Enda.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I am not clear as to whether the Minister accepts the problem I outlined. Does he accept that there is a category of individuals - rather than individual families - numbering up to 30,000 families who cannot avail of insolvency arrangements put in place by the Government? As a result, they face the loss of their family homes. That will add another 20,000 or 30,000 to the 90,000 people already on our local authority house waiting lists.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Seamus Healy

They will also have to avail of rent supplement, at much cost to the State. Currently, the only solution for these families is bankruptcy. Does the Minister accept that as a solution for these families, as I certainly do not? What changes will the Government make in insolvency arrangements to ensure that this category of distressed mortgage holder can be helped? I repeat that these are blameless people on low incomes with no disposable income, so they cannot avail of insolvency arrangements. What changes will the Government make to ensure these families can stay in their homes?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Everybody in this House shares the concern which the Deputy has raised on a number of occasions. This Government has put in place a most comprehensive programme of action to assist householders struggling to pay their mortgages-----

Deputy Seamus Healy

That does not cover this category of people.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I am trying to reply to the Deputy's question.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Minister is not listening.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We have rebalanced the rights of borrowers and lenders under the biggest shake-up of personal insolvency law in the century. We have given those who bought their first homes during the bubble significant increases in mortgage interest relief. That is not the end of what we are trying to do. I accept the concerns which have been expressed and although the figures are hard to calculate, they are of the order mentioned. Under this system, it is inevitable that some people will be faced with the prospect of losing their homes because of their circumstances. As a Government, we are prepared to look at the measures that can be adopted in that set of circumstances, where some kind of rental agreement or other form of intervention can be arrived at with institutions that in many cases have been funded by the taxpayer. This is to ensure that a family does not lose a home.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Write down the mortgages.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Correct.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Whatever way it is to be done, nobody in the House wants to see people put out on the street because they cannot repay amounts.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Well do something about it.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Nobody wants that.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Fine Gael and the Labour Party are the Government now. They still think they are the Opposition.

Deputy Seamus Healy

The current arrangements do not protect the people I have described.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputies are not prepared to listen, they should not ask the questions.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

We all share the Deputy's concern. This is an evolving problem and we have taken steps to resolve it in a number of areas. That does not mean we will not take more steps if necessary. In some cases, it probably will be necessary.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Of course it will.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Government will not be found wanting.

Deputy Finian McGrath

They still think they are the Opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

Before moving to the Order of Business I take this opportunity to wish all Members and staff of the Oireachtas a very happy, peaceful and restful Christmas. I include in this colleagues who are unwell at present. This has been a tough year, with many contentious issues, but regardless of people's views and what side of the House they are on, we are all here to do what we think is best for the country.

The families of Members are often forgotten and I wish them a very happy Christmas. They are sometimes the unpaid assistants at home, answering the phone and the door to constituents with problems. I also wish staff in constituency offices around the country a very happy Christmas. I take this opportunity to thank Ms Gráinne Barrett and all the staff in the restaurants, as well as Mr. Darren Brady and the bar staff, and wish them a very peaceful and enjoyable Christmas with their families. I am sure everybody would agree we are very well looked after by all and I hope these staff will enjoy a very well deserved rest.

To the Superintendent, the Captain of the Guard and all the ushers and service staff who provide an invaluable service to all, I say that we truly appreciate their assistance throughout the year. I wish them a very happy and peaceful Christmas. I also thank the staff of the Oireachtas Library and Research Service, together with the communications unit, which provide great assistance both in communicating a message to the public and in helping Members to prepare for consideration of legislation. We are also very reassured at times by the ongoing presence of members of An Garda Síochána and the Permanent Defence Force in and around the House, and we greatly appreciate their dedication and commitment to duty. I hope they will have a very happy and peaceful Christmas with their families.

Last but not least I mention the members of the press in Leinster House, who endeavour to be fair even though at times it does not seem that way to all of us. They are doing their best in their jobs. I wish everybody a very happy and restful Christmas and I hope to see everybody in 2014 fully refreshed and ready for what will be a very busy year. Thank you.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Do not forget your constituency colleague.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have included all Members in my address, irrespective of their views.