Topical Issue Debate

Small and Medium Enterprises Debt

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important matter for discussion. I have received apologies for his absence from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, who I understand is attending a Cabinet meeting.

This important debate is essentially about jobs and employment because 99% of businesses in Ireland are Irish-owned SMEs. Some 70% of private sector employment in this country is accounted for by SMEs. Some 700,000 to 800,000 people are working daily in Irish SMEs, so this concerns jobs.

The issue of SME debt has largely been overshadowed by household debt and mortgage arrears, but both issues are inextricably linked. If an SME gets into financial difficulty due to a debt overhang it can cost jobs. If a family loses a job it will have a direct knock-on effect on their ability to pay the mortgage and other households bills.

Last year, Ms Fiona Muldoon, a director of the Central Bank, said that about half of the approximately €50 billion owed by Irish SMEs was in some form of distress. The alarm bells should have started to ring at that stage. I welcome the recent intervention of UCD's Professor Morgan Kelly on this issue, given his strong reputation. He has triggered an important public policy debate in this regard and it is essential to give it the attention it deserves.

At a political level, we have been raising the issue of the debt overhang facing Irish businesses. Some weeks ago, I was informed in a Dáil reply by the Minister, Deputy Noonan, that last year the Central Bank set some targets for banks to move SME customers with debt issues onto longer-term solutions. Unfortunately, however, those targets have not been published by the Central Bank and we have had no indication of the nature of those solutions. The Minister said the banks reported that they have complied with the targets. This is the same Minister who, less than two years ago, told this House that one cannot believe what the banks are saying.

As in the case of the mortgage arrears targets, the banks' compliance with these targets in respect of SME debt restructuring needs to be independently audited and verified. It is essential for that to be done. In addition, the targets that were set last year by the Central Bank exclude foreign-owned banks, including Ulster Bank which is a major player in the Irish SME market. It is important to deal with that issue.

Fundamentally, SMEs with a significant debt overhang should have their viable trading business separated from the debt which is probably related to property. In recent years, we have seen many good, viable trading businesses being contaminated by the property collapse. Many of those property investments were not directly related to the business and did not relate to property which the business was using in its day to day affairs, yet represented a property investment. That contamination has directly affected many good, viable businesses. Therefore, we need to separate both aspects and put more innovative solutions in place. The solutions will certainly be more complex and quite different to those for mortgage arrears cases, for example. Many of the solutions for SMEs will involve equity participation and a fundamental balance-sheet restructuring for these businesses.

I look forward to what the Minister of State has to say. This is an important debate which is essentially about jobs and preserving employment.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Joe Costello)

I thank the Deputy for tabling this very important issue. It has recently been brought back into the public arena in a lively fashion by Professor Morgan Kelly.

The Government recognises that SMEs are the lifeblood of the economy and play a vital role in the continuing recovery of employment growth in our country. Government policy is focused on ensuring that all viable SMEs have access to an appropriate supply of credit from a diverse range of bank and non-bank sources. The Central Bank's statistics on SME lending provide a breakdown of outstanding debt across a number of different industries. Credit advanced to all non-financial, non-property related enterprises decreased by 2.1% over the quarter and by 5.3% over the year to end-Q4, bringing the stock of credit to €36.7 billion. An annual decline of 5.3% was also registered for end-Q4 2012.

SME credit to non-property, non-financial private-sector enterprises fell by 6.2% or €1.6 billion in the year to end-Q4 2013, to stand at €24.5 billion. This represents a decline of 3.1% or €771 million over the quarter, as these SMEs continued to repay more debt than was drawn down. SMEs accounted for 67% of all non-financial, non-property credit.

For a significant number of viable smaller and medium-sized enterprises the capacity to access financing is constrained by debt overhang, particularly in regard to property exposures. Restoring confidence and unlocking demand for the finance that is required to invest in growth, necessitates a coordinated and focused strategy for facilitating debt restructuring. Debt overhang and SME arrears are issues which impact on the ability of an SME to meet its existing commitments, as well as hindering its ability to secure additional credit which it may need. The Minister for Finance and his senior officials meet regularly with representatives of the banking sector about all aspects of the economy and this is a topic addressed in those meetings.

In June 2013, the Central Bank set quarterly institution-specific performance targets for covered banks to move distressed SME borrowers onto longer-term forbearance solutions. The targets set reflect the banks' capacity, processes and systems. The Central Bank has informed the Minister for Finance that the banks have reported that they have met their required targets to date. This perspective has been reaffirmed by both the IMF and the European Commission which report that the workout of SME arrears is progressing and that imposed targets are being met.

Irish banks are well advanced in restructuring their SME loan books. Bank of Ireland indicated in their recently published results that they had reached resolution in 90% of distressed SME cases. AIB's results indicate a resolution level of approximately 65%. It is also worth noting that defaulted loans for both banks have reduced year-on-year. Given the scale of the economic crisis that was inherited by this Government, this clearly represents considerable progress in such a vital sector of the economy.

The Central Bank's process of assessing financial institutions in their efforts to move distressed SME borrowers onto longer-term sustainable solutions is an important element in assisting SMEs to potentially transition from a distressed to a more sustainable state and will continue in 2014. Additionally, the Government's decision to fast-track legislation to allow small companies, as defined by the Companies Acts, to apply to the Circuit Court for examinership, the Irish Banking Federation's new protocol on multi-banked SME debt, and the ongoing work of the expanded Credit Review Office are all initiatives that will assist viable SMEs in addressing their debt situation. Furthermore, specific measures to promote access to finance among SMEs, including measures relating to debt restructuring, are a central feature of the Government's Action Plan for Jobs 2014. I should stress that the credit review process remains available to any SMEs whose credit has been reduced or withdrawn by AIB or Bank of Ireland, as well as when credit is refused by them. I would strongly advise any SME whose credit is reduced or withdrawn, to avail of the services of the Credit Review Office.

Resolving the issue of distressed SME debt in a mutually acceptable manner that affords benefits not only to parties involved in SMEs and banks but also to the wider society and economy has been and remains a key priority for this Government.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. However, the figures provided in his answer ignore the problem we are facing, which is the property-related debt that SMEs are carrying. The figure the Minister of State has provided for SME credit for non-property, non-financial private SMEs is put at €24.5 billion.

My understanding is that there is another €30 billion or so attached to these SMEs in respect of property related debt. That is the problem we face. Many of these SMEs have a viable and sustainable business model but they have to deal with the problem of the property related debt which is hanging over them. We are asking for the targets which have been set by the Central Bank almost one year ago to be published. We want to know the nature of the solutions being proposed. We want independent verification of the banks' compliance with those targets. We want the targets to be expanded to include non-Irish banks such as Ulster Bank. We know that many businesses are very fearful now because of the consequences of the downsizing of the banking sector, including commercial customers of the former IBRC, whose loans have been sold on at significant discount to foreign-owned funds. These customers are very concerned at the approach being taken by those funds in respect of their businesses and the capacity of their businesses to continue to be sustainable.

I am disappointed that the reply ignores a fundamental aspect of SME debt which is property related. The figures have only been provided for non-property related debt and that only tells about half the story. There is much more work to be done. We want to ensure that where businesses have a significant debt overhang, proper innovative solutions are being provided that will allow them to continue to trade in business by separating the debt related to property from the debt attached to the viable business.

Deputy Joe Costello

The remarks by the UCD academic Morgan Kelly related to the stress testing by the ECB. The ECB comprehensive assessment will not deal with loan restructuring as such. It will determine whether the banks have sufficient provision against their loans and capital. Irish banks have undergone such an exercise prior to the troika exit. The stress testing on that occasion proved to be successful. This is the second in less than three years. It has led to a substantial increase in the loan provisions made at the end of the year and as such we do not anticipate any capital issues for the Irish banks as a result of the comprehensive assessment.

Professor Kelly presented a hypothetical situation that in the third stress testing the ECB could find the banks would be unable to respond satisfactorily and that there would be another major debt problem which would cause considerable difficulties for the SME sector. The rate of restructuring is 90% for the Bank of Ireland and 65% for AIB. The banks have met the targets set. There is no reason to believe that even though we are not in possession of the full figures, the property related debts are of such a nature that they would cause the difficulties that were feared in that hypothetical situation where we did not pass the stress testing. The scenario as presented by Professor Morgan Kelly is hypothetical. The response of the banks in dealing with the problems has been shown to be successful by two stress tests.

Accident and Emergency Department Waiting Times

Deputy Gerald Nash

The situation in the accident and emergency department at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda requires the immediate attention of the HSE and the Department of Health. The Minister will know from our various conversations over the past three years that I am proud of my local hospital. I am proud of its staff and I know the staff quite rightly take great pride in the service they provide to the people of Drogheda and for the people across the north east and north County Dublin.

The hospital has evolved considerably in recent years from being a local acute hospital and maternity service to a major regional centre of excellence, the major trauma centre for the north east with a busy, newly built emergency department dealing with more patients than ever. The Minister will be aware of the longer-term plan for the further expansion of the emergency department with €22 million allocated to the project which will double the capacity. Full planning permission was recently granted for this expansion and the project is ready to go.

This does not deal, however, with the problem facing nurses, doctors, hospital management and, most important, the patients and their families. Yesterday morning, a total of 45 patients who had been technically admitted to the hospital were waiting for beds, with nine patients in a queue in the accident and emergency department. Management and staff did their utmost to respond as best they could to the situation by reassigning staff and opening some new beds in other facilities in the region. However, the major problem is that since the reconfiguration of hospital services in the north east under the previous Government, the Lourdes hospital has never had the full complement of beds which a region with this size of population merits. It did not have a full complement under Fianna Fáil when the country was awash with money and I take the view that neither does it now. Older patients who are medically discharged need their home care packages fast-tracked.

The Minister for Health and the HSE need to provide the necessary resources for the development of 100 beds in a long-term residential nursing home, a proposal promoted by me and by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd. The HSE has applied to the Department of Health for capital funding to allow this project to come to fruition. This is my aim and that of the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd. It is now the policy of the HSE region of Dublin and the north east which made an application in recent months.

The Cottage Hospital in Drogheda has been kept open and it is a facility in which the Minister has an interest. The hospital cares for those who are no longer acutely ill and are waiting until they are well enough to go home or until their longer-term care needs are addressed. It is vital to see the new extra transitional care beds which the HSE is committed to delivering and which are much needed. The HSE is working with the staff in the hospital to fulfil that goal.

Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly)

I thank Deputy Nash for raising this issue. Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, experienced an unusually high level of presentations at its emergency department on Monday and Tuesday of this week, which placed services under severe pressure. The situation was exacerbated this week by the fact that over 57% of the inpatient beds in the hospital have been occupied by elderly patients who generally require more complex care or who may be waiting for community or nursing home services to facilitate their discharge from acute hospital care. In this regard, all available private nursing home capacity is being utilised and it is intended that a further 15 beds will be opened in Louth County Hospital. In response to the pressures experienced earlier this week, a full escalation protocol was engaged within the hospital, and other hospitals within the area were notified and assistance requested.

The overall aim of an escalation protocol is to ensure each hospital with an emergency department has a fit for purpose operational framework to respond to surge pressures. The hospitals must manage admissions, discharges and escalation - surge capacity - procedures in a responsive, controlled and planned way that supports and ensures the delivery of optimum patient care. It is important that escalation measures are undertaken across the full health system, including primary, community and continuing care services, to ensure all available capacity and options are utilised and brought to bear on the situation.

In response to the surge experienced in Drogheda, all non-urgent meetings and training sessions were cancelled to ensure availability of staff, including diagnostic teams - for example, radiology and laboratory - and allied health professionals such as physiotherapists, to focus on managing that surge. All emergency department requests were expedited to allow everyone to focus on the emergency department response. Elective endoscopy was cancelled or diverted, thus making six beds available to emergency department admissions. This will remain the case for the rest of this week and next. Cancelled procedures are being redirected to Louth County Hospital to ensure patients are accommodated. Non-urgent and non-cancer related elective activity is also cancelled at present. In addition, use of the minor injuries unit and GP services are being actively promoted for appropriate patients.

Unusual pressures such as these are disappointing for the Department, the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation and the HSE's special delivery unit, but much more so for the patients and their families for whom these delays add discomfort and further distress. However, as a result of the efforts of the staff and management of Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, the number of patients awaiting admission has reduced significantly, from 45 at 8 a.m. yesterday to 15 at 8 a.m. this morning. I take this opportunity to join Deputy Nash in commending the hospital staff on their efforts.

Deputy Gerald Nash

I thank the Minister for his detailed response. I am aware that the numbers awaiting admission have reduced dramatically in the past 24 hours. It is due to the work of nursing staff, doctors and hospital management that these serious inroads are being made. Earlier today I contacted the INMO to arrange a meeting to discuss this problem, which concerns the wider community in Drogheda, County Louth and the east Meath area. It is an issue we must address.

When the special delivery unit got stuck into this issue of trolley waits at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital a couple of years ago, we began to see significant year-on-year reductions. In fact, the trolley figures have more than halved since the Government came into office, from 7,500 in 2011 to 3,212 in 2013. That dramatic reduction represents serious progress in addressing the problem. It is all well and good, however, for the Minister or me to point to that progress. The reality is that ill people being made to wait on trolleys for admission to a bed in this or any other hospital in the country is a situation people are not prepared to tolerate. It is time to tackle this issue in conjunction with the SDU. The response by the SDU to the crisis previously was excellent, progressive and effective.

In an ideal situation, nobody would be waiting on trolleys, and there is no doubt that some of the reforms led by hospital staff and the Department have worked. What it boils down to, however, is that where blockages arise in regard to the fair deal scheme and home care packages, they must be addressed without delay. The underlying problem is the high numbers of elderly patients stuck in acute beds when that is not necessarily the right place for them. The only way we can address this problem locally is by ensuring the HSE's proposal to develop a 100-bed unit at the site of St. Mary's Hospital on the Dublin Road in Drogheda is delivered. It is a proposal I support, as does the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd. I hope the Minister will take on board our representations in this regard.

Deputy James Reilly

I am aware that this matter is of considerable concern to the Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, and to Deputy Nash and our colleague, Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick. We have major reforms under way which are yielding results. I thank the front-line staff and management for implementing those reforms with 10% fewer staff, a 20% reduction in budget and an 8% growth in the population. Despite these pressures, we are still managing to improve the service and will continue to do so. Ultimately, however, reforms of the current system can only go so far, which is why I will shortly be bringing forward a White Paper on universal health insurance.

Regarding the fair deal scheme, it is important to note that it operates in chronological order, with people in the community coming on stream first followed by people in hospital, or vice versa. Early last year we opened up a number of long-term care beds, many of which went to people in the community. As such, they did not alleviate the situation in hospitals. I am in ongoing discussions with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch on this issue. Patients who require long-term care are, by definition, very ill and, in many cases, elderly. As Minister for Health and as a doctor, my view is that those who are most acutely in need, namely, the people who are acutely ill in casualty, must be prioritised. If that means we sometimes have to break the chronological order under the fair deal scheme, then it will be done because it is the fair thing to do. I do not agree that we should dispense entirely with the chronological order, but when we experience surges such as we have seen at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, we must take action to protect those who are most vulnerable and most at risk. Those are the patients lying on trolleys in our emergency departments.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and the staff of Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital for the great work they are doing, as well as the staff right across the health system who have implemented major improvements despite the lack of resources they face.

Ambulance Service Provision

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me the opportunity to raise this issue. I am glad the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, is in the Chamber to take it. As he will know, in south Tipperary an ambulance service operates out of Cashel, Clonmel and Tipperary town. There has been a concentrated effort by the national ambulance service to downgrade the service in south Tipperary by reducing the number of ambulances and ambulance personnel. It is bad enough having people waiting on trolleys in our hospital in south Tipperary on a daily basis and staff operating under enormous pressures. Now we will not have enough ambulances to collect sick people in any type of reasonable response time. The service covers a huge area from the hills of Araglin right up to the hills of Hollyford. It includes a national primary road and a motorway, as well as significant industry. This issue is of huge concern to people in the area who are wondering what will happen if they have an accident or become ill.

I have called on the national ambulance service to engage immediately, on respectful and conciliatory terms, with ambulance personnel in south Tipperary. I salute those staff on behalf of my constituents in south Tipperary and beyond for their dedication in getting to people as fast as they can and using their paramedic training to stabilise patients and transport them safely to hospital. The personnel in Cashel have come up with a very reasonable proposal that will improve the situation from the perspective of the HSE and the national ambulance service management. They have offered an additional four hours of cover per day and other changes to the roster, which is currently very damaging to their own family life. This proposal has been rejected, however, by the national ambulance service, which seems determined to downgrade the service in Cashel and possibly also in Clonmel.

The Minister is aware that we have lost the psychiatric hospital in Clonmel. Patients are now transferred to Kilkenny, which makes the ambulance service even more important. I do not have time to list all the pressures under which the service is operating. Will the Minister take a common sense approach and engage directly on this issue? He promised when he took office that he would get rid of the HSE and take a hands-on approach, instead of having these agencies in the middle engaging in bullyboy tactics and telling people they must do X or Y or else. We have a High Court agreement signed by the then Minister for Health and now Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, under which guarantees were given that two ambulances would be based in Clonmel, with sufficient staff and an adequate roster. Those guarantees were reiterated last year.

I was present on the day the agreement was reinforced or reinstated by a Supreme Court judge.

The Minister has to sit up and listen. He must get involved here. These very dedicated staff are covered under the Haddington Road agreement. The Minister is using reviews mar dhea, examinations and more reviews to wait until the Haddington Road agreement runs out. At that stage, he will do the dirty work and remove the ambulance. The people of Tipperary will not stand for this. They are entitled to a modicum of service. The personnel who are in place are doing a good job. I want the Minister to live up to the commitment he gave the people of Tipperary and the rest of Ireland, which was that he would take a hands-on approach to prevent the HSE from issuing diktats without any communication or engagement with local politicians or the personnel involved. He should ask the HSE to acknowledge that what is currently in place is not broken and therefore does not need to be fixed. The people of Tipperary should have some bit of ease and relaxation in the knowledge that an ambulance will come if it is needed.

Deputy James Reilly

A significant development programme has been under way in recent years across all areas of the National Ambulance Service. The service continues to modernise and reconfigure its services to ensure emergency pre-hospital care is delivered in an appropriate and timely manner. Since 2012, in particular, there have been significant changes in rostering and work organisation arrangements for paramedic and control staff, following Labour Court recommendations. These changes have included addressing arrangements which are obsolete in the provision of a modern pre-hospital emergency service, such as moving from rostering with built-in overtime to arrangements which reflect a standard 39 hour week. The move from on-call rostering, where staff are off-site waiting to be summoned, to on-duty rostering, where paramedic crews are in their stations or vehicles during shifts, is ongoing. This is leading to faster deployment because the crew is in position to respond immediately to calls, rather than having to wait for the average on-call deployment period of over 20 minutes. On-duty rostering is now in place across much of the State. As part of the modernisation programme, an ongoing review of service provision is taking place in the former south-east area. This includes consideration of rostering arrangements and resource allocation. I am aware the Deputy has concerns regarding Cashel ambulance station. I am informed by the National Ambulance Service there have been no changes in respect of cover or rostering arrangements at that station.

The reform programme that is under way will ensure we have a clinically driven and nationally co-ordinated system that is supported by improved technology. Development funding of €3.6 million and 43 additional staff have been provided for in the 2014 national service plan. The national control centre reconfiguration project is a key measure in this programme. The National Ambulance Service has traditionally operated in eight ambulance regions, with no inter-connection of radio and computer systems. This has delayed improvements in emergency response times, particularly at regional boundaries where the nearest ambulance may have been in the neighbouring region. The control centre project is moving to one national control system, on two sites, with significant investment in new voice, data and mapping technologies. This will allow the National Ambulance Service to deploy emergency resources more effectively and efficiently, regionally and nationally rather than within small geographic areas. The national centre will be located in Tallaght and Ballyshannon, with the project expected to be completed next year. I assure the House that the National Ambulance Service will continue to modernise and reconfigure its services to ensure emergency pre-hospital care is delivered in an appropriate and timely manner.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I shudder when I hear the word "reconfiguration". We have reconfigured. We lost our hospital in Cashel. We have a High Court agreement. The paramedics and staff are not resisting change. All they want is to be able to operate in the knowledge that they will not be blamed for any embarrassing or sad situations that might arise. I do not want to predict doom and gloom. When I hear all the lovely talk about "reconfiguration" - the Minister was prepared to read a statement about what might or will happen to the National Ambulance Service - I wonder what will happen when ambulances cannot get away from hospitals because there are no beds or trolleys to put people on, which is what happened at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. Does the Minister know what will happen to all the predictions regarding delivery, call-out and response times when an ambulance is held up for hours because the trolley the last patient was brought in on is being used in the hospital to accommodate that person due to a lack of trolleys? This is all poppycock. It is lovely in writing. It is lovely jargon for the Minister to read out and quote from. It is nice that it is dressed up in flowery language like "reconfiguration".

The bottom line is that we need a safe service. The people of Tipperary and elsewhere are entitled to such a service. They should not have to wait for periods of time that one might expect to have to wait for in a Third World country. We have to maintain this. Does the Minister have any respect for the High Court or Supreme Court judges? Does he have any respect for the agreements that were signed and organised by his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, when he served as Minister for Health? I ask the Minister to intervene in this matter by asking the National Ambulance Service to come up with proper management structures. He has mentioned figures for new ambulances and new recruits, but what about natural wastage? What about vehicles that are off the road because they have reached the end of their days? Is the Minister expecting the Civil Defence or the Red Cross to fall in here? Is he expecting people to use their own vehicles?

During a recent edition of "Prime Time", we heard about many cases of people who were beside hospitals in built-up areas but nevertheless had to wait nearly an hour for ambulances to arrive. This is not the fault of the paramedics. We do not have enough of them because they are being cut back, moved and downgraded. Blame is being placed on honourable people who are trained and abide by the hippocratic oath. They want to look after those who are in need, but they do not have the personnel or the ambulances to enable them to do so. The Minister spoke about new radios and everything else. That will not be much good to people when they are in the hills of Hollyford or Araglin, with an hour and a half of driving in between. I ask the Minister to sit up and see what is happening here. He needs to stop this situation from arising. He should not wait for the review, as it will be too late for people's lives.

Deputy James Reilly

The Deputy is not too bad at the old flowery language himself. We need to stick to the facts. There has been a great deal of investment in the National Ambulance Service in recent years. We have not diminished the number of ambulances. In fact, we have added to that number by providing intermediate care vehicles and using different vehicles for inter-hospital transfers, which were mentioned by the Deputy. As a result of these measures, more ambulances are available for acute emergency care. I remind the House that despite this country's financial difficulty, this Government was the first to bring in an air ambulance service, which serves the area alluded to by Deputy McGrath. I know there were some reports and claims in local media earlier this year that ambulance services in Cashel were being downgraded. There is no downgrading of the ambulance service in Cashel.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

So it is all imaginary.

Deputy James Reilly

I did not interrupt the Deputy.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Are the staff imagining it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister, without interruption.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What the Minister is saying is not true.

Deputy James Reilly

The National Ambulance Service has advised that there was no removal of an ambulance at Cashel over the Christmas period in 2013. However, short-note absences such as sick leave resulted in reduced cover at the station on a couple of occasions.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The staff are being blamed again.

Deputy James Reilly

I am setting out the facts. Some €129 million has been invested in our ambulance services. The service employs approximately 1,550 staff and uses more than 480 vehicles. The volume of calls has increased significantly in recent years. Some 229,703 calls, equating to an average of 19,142 a month, were made in 2012. That figure has increased to 296,730, which equates to a monthly average of almost 27,000 calls. When there is such a volume of calls, sadly there will occasionally be times when the targets cannot be met. It is a very serious situation for those people. The ambulance service is striving to ensure ambulances are available for the most serious calls to deal with those who are most in need. That remains the goal. As the Deputy knows, we have limited resources. We have invested in the ambulance service and we will continue to do so. I congratulate the men and women who work in our ambulance services on the great work they do.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 12 Mar 2014