Topical Issue Debate

Inquiry into the Death of Mr. Pat Finucane

Deputy Gerry Adams

Tá mé fíor-bhuíoch don Cheann Comhairle as ucht an seans labhairt faoin ábhar tábhachtach agus dáiríre seo. Tá mé buíoch don Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Trádála as ucht bheith i láthair. Today, as we should know, is the 26th anniversary of the killing of human rights lawyer Pat Finucane. I knew Pat very well. He was my lawyer. I am sure the Minister, as a lawyer himself, understands this and that he was an excellent advocate for the rights of citizens who refused to be intimidated by threats from loyalists and the RUC. Pat believed in the law. He believed he could use the law to bring about people's rights, create a way forward and defend people. I wish to commend Pat's wife, Geraldine, and their family for their unwavering courage and diligence in pursuing their demand for a public inquiry all these years.

In 2001, there was a breakthrough when the British and Irish Governments agreed at Weston Park to invite Judge Peter Cory to examine four cases. Judge Cory concluded that four inquiries should be held. Three have taken place, including one by the Irish Government. However, the British Government has refused to honour its commitment. In October 2011, the British Prime Minister further disappointed the Finucane family by dismissing the having of an inquiry and instead appointing Desmond de Silva to review the case files. The de Silva report was published in December 2012 and it revealed a shocking scale of collusion by the British and Unionist paramilitaries. It serves to reinforce the need for an inquiry into the killing of Pat Finucane. The de Silva report revealed that 85% of intelligence the UDA used to target people for murder originated from British army and RUC sources.

Agents working for MI5, RUC Special Branch and British Military Intelligence were participating in criminality, including murder. This issue was also considered extensively at British cabinet level. There was administrative and ministerial authority for these policies. It has been revealed that the director general of MI5 briefed Margaret Thatcher in 1988. This is all fact. The murder of Pat Finucane by state agents was not a one-off incident. It was the norm.

Collusion was a matter of institutional and administrative practice by successive British Governments and Lethal Allies by Anne Cadwallader should be necessary reading for every Teachta Dála in this House. She looks at the activities of one particular gang, the Glenanne gang. This practice involved the establishment of unionist paramilitary groups, the systematic infiltration by the British of all unionist death squads at the highest levels, the controlling and direction of these groups, their training, and they also provided them with information on people to be killed. This is based on a strategy developed by a man called Frank Kitson. He coined the phrase "counter-gangs". This is the set up of counter-gangs which was done in the North and other colonial places. They also helped to import weapons from the old South African apartheid regime, which killed hundreds of people. I do not have time to bring the House through the facts and detail of all of that.

The role of successive Irish Governments, not just this one, has not been as strategic or consistent as it could be. I spoke with Theresa Villiers, the British Secretary of State, by telephone today. Among other things, I raised this issue with her. I have raised it in this House and elsewhere countless times. The Taoiseach tells me, and I have no reason to disbelieve him, in fact I believe him, that he has raised this issue with the British Prime Minister. However, I am not satisfied he has done it with the conviction required. It is clear that Mr. Cameron will not willingly agree to a public inquiry. He ruled this out when I raised it with him in the company of the Taoiseach during the Stormont House talks. Incidentally, the Taoiseach remained silent during that conversation. It is therefore little wonder that the British Government behaves as it does.

I request the Government to go beyond the polite requests which are brushed aside. We need to develop a strategy to employ the full resources of our diplomatic service to raise this case with our international friends at every opportunity and to bring the case before the UN. I applaud the fact that the case of the guinea pigs, the hooded-men, is being taken to the European Court. We should raise this issue within the European Union and with our friends in the Government of the United States. Every available international forum should know the Irish Government wants this case dealt with.

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Charles Flanagan)

On this day, the 26th anniversary of the murder of Pat Finucane, I wish to express sympathy, on my own behalf and on behalf of members of the Government, to Mrs. Geraldine Finucane and all the Finucane family. That any family should witness the cold-blooded murder of a loved one is appalling. That their quest for the full and transparent truth about the horrendous events of that day is still ongoing only compounds their sense of loss and grief. This is why successive Irish Governments have consistently supported the call on behalf of the Finucane family for a full, independent and public judicial inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane, in line with the commitments made by the Irish and British Governments at Weston Park in 2001. As Deputies will be aware, this position has the cross-party support of this House following an all-party motion of 2006 which called for the immediate establishment of such an inquiry.

In October 2011, the British Government announced that Desmond de Silva QC would conduct a legal review into the circumstances surrounding the murder of Pat Finucane. The review was proposed as an alternative to the public inquiry which had been recommended by the Canadian judge, Judge Cory, in his independent report produced in accordance with the commitments of the Weston Park agreement. The report of the de Silva review was published in December 2012. It found that there was state collusion in the case and that "a series of positive actions by employees of the State actively furthered and facilitated [Pat Finucane's] murder, and that, in the aftermath of the murder, there was a relentless attempt to defeat the ends of justice".

In his statement to the House of Commons on 12 December 2012, Prime Minister Cameron accepted the report's findings of shocking levels of state collusion and repeated his apology to the Finucane family. He disagreed, however, that a public inquiry would produce a fuller picture of what happened and what went wrong. Following the publication of the report, the Government reiterated our position on the need for an independent public inquiry into the murder in accordance with the Weston Park agreement and the recommendation of Judge Cory.

We continue to do so. As recently as yesterday, I raised the issue during my meeting with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Theresa Villiers. She repeated, as I am sure she did to Deputy Adams this afternoon, the current British Government's position that the clear findings of the de Silva review report and Prime Minister Cameron's public apology in the House of Commons constitute her Government's response to the case and that it does not intend to provide for a full public inquiry. I note that following the publication of the de Silva review report, the opposition Labour Party in Britain indicated that it believes a public inquiry is necessary for Pat Finucane's family and for Northern Ireland. I understand that judicial review proceedings are being taken by Mrs. Finucane in the High Court in Northern Ireland regarding the decision not to hold a public inquiry.

I reiterate to Deputy Adams and indeed to the House that today is a particularly sad day for the Finucane family. I reiterate my condolences to them on their great loss. The Irish Government will continue to support them in their quest for a full public truth regarding the dreadful events of 26 years ago.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am disappointed with the Minister's answer. Have we raised this at the UN? Have we raised this at the EU? Have we asked our ambassadors to lobby on this internationally? Have we raised this with the Obama Administration in the White House? This is what Governments are supposed to do. They are supposed to use diplomatic services to uphold the rights of citizens. The Minister should read Frank Kitson's book on the counter-insurgency strategy in the North. I commend it to him. That strategy was honed over decades of colonial actions around the world. At its core, Frank Kitson articulated that "the Law should be used as just another weapon [to get rid of] unwanted members of the public". Pat Finucane was an officer of the court and a human rights lawyer. He was got rid of not by murder gangs, but at the direction under the administrative practice that the British Government has cleared. Report after report has lifted the lid on many actions.

We know that the peace process did not happen by an act of divine mercy. It did not happen by accident. It happened because people took risks, chances and appropriate steps. We are not asking the Government to take huge risks. A British Government will be assisted. I remind the House that they have just had to open the books on their torture of Mau Mau detainees 40 years ago. They were recently forced to open the books on the people they tortured in Palace Barracks outside Belfast. This is good for the process of building the future. I will repeat what I have said many times. The British and Irish Governments are co-equal guarantors of all that has flowed from the Good Friday Agreement onwards. We are not junior partners. We are co-equal guarantors. I will repeat the call I have made. I know I sometimes speak very directly. I do not mean to be harsh. It is the way I talk. We should launch a diplomatic initiative in the US, at the heart of the EU and in the UN on this and other cases. We need to develop a strategy and a campaign to bring this about. We should use our status as having one of the most successful peace processes in modern times. These issues continue to infect and draw down, rather than giving people closure. I respectfully commend this approach to the Minister.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I wish to make it quite clear to Deputy Adams and everybody in the House and beyond that there is absolutely no ambivalence on the part of the Government as far as this issue is concerned. We continue to make it absolutely clear in all circumstances that the position of the Irish Government remains one of full support for a public inquiry in line with the commitments agreed upon at Weston Park. That has been the position for many years and continues to be the position. There is absolutely no movement in that regard. We made it quite clear as recently as yesterday that our position differs fundamentally from that of the British Government. Can I say to Deputy Adams that this Government will continue to support the Finucane family in whatever way possible in their quest to establish a full and transparent truth on this issue?

Deputy Gerry Adams

They want the Government to do what I have outlined.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

In fact, my Department will be represented this evening in Belfast with representatives of the Finucane family as the group marks the anniversary of the brutal murder. My officials have worked closely with the family. We will continue to work closely with the family in the context of our discussions with the British Government and beyond. Officials from the Department have been working during the course of Judge Cory's review at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. We will continue to raise this issue through diplomatic channels and at every opportunity so that the quest for justice and truth on this issue can be brought to a conclusion and the Finucane family and the people of Northern Ireland can receive closure.

Human Rights

Deputy Alan Shatter

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for granting me permission to raise this issue, which I have been seeking to raise for some time. As Members of the House may know, in August 2013, when Ibrahim Halawa was a 17 year old young man on holidays in Egypt with his sisters, he got caught up in the turmoil and difficulties that were then taking place in that country. Ibrahim Halawa and his sisters engaged in peaceful protest at that time and were ultimately arrested and detained. His sisters have long since been released and are no longer at risk in the context of the circumstances in which they originally found themselves. Ibrahim Halawa, who is now 19 years of age, has been held in prison in Egypt for 18 months. I know the Minister for Foreign Affairs is fully aware of Ibrahim Halawa's circumstances and has been in contact with the Egyptian authorities about him.

The trial of Ibrahim Halawa has been postponed on four separate occasions. The Irish ambassador and the Irish consular officials have been in regular contact with him. Family visits are allowed. Last year, shortly before I ceased to be Minister for Justice and Equality and following consultation with the then Tánaiste, I attempted to make contact with my counterpart in Egypt, the Egyptian Minister for Justice, on a number of occasions with a view to discussing Ibrahim Halawa's circumstances. Unfortunately, that did not prove possible and contact was not successfully made. It is normally the approach of this State to stand back and allow the law to take its course in other states with which we have good relations. We try to allow matters to be dealt with before the courts in such countries. We have good relations with Egypt, of course. Egypt is a friend of Ireland and Ireland is a friend of Egypt.

I believe matters have reached a stage where a new initiative is required. The most recent date on which the trial of Ibrahim Halawa was supposed to take place was last week. We know that the trial with which he is confronted is very different from trials in this country. It will be a mass trial with myriad charges brought against Ibrahim Halawa and approximately 490 other individuals. No court system anywhere in the world could ensure the charges brought before it in such circumstances are dealt with in a manner that makes sure each individual before the court gets justice and protects his or her individual human rights.

Ibrahim Halawa is now an Amnesty prisoner of conscience. There are concerns that he has been mistreated during his time in prison. He shared a cell with Peter Greste, the Australian al-Jazeera journalist who was released recently in response to representations made by the Australian Government and on whose behalf the al-Jazeera news network campaigned. I believe this young man, who has now been in jail for 18 months, should be released. Given that the Egyptian authorities have seen fit to release his sisters, who had been held on foot of their involvement in a demonstration, he should not be treated differently.

If it was appropriate to release them, and it was, then it is appropriate to release him.

I am asking the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to take a new initiative - that is, to request formally of the Egyptian Government and the Egyptian President that Ibrahim be released. New laws introduced in Egypt have facilitated such an approach. It was on the basis of such an approach by the Australian Government that Peter Greste was released. Ibrahim Halawa is a citizen of this State. He is a constituent of mine. His father is a leader of the Muslim community in this city and county of Dublin. I think we should now say to the Egyptian Government that it has friendly relations with Ireland and we have diplomatic relations, so please release this young man and let him return to his life and resume his education in Ireland.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I thank Deputy Shatter for raising this important issue and for giving me an opportunity to update the House.

Ibrahim Halawa, an Irish citizen, and his three sisters were detained following incidents at the Al Fateh mosque in Ramses Square in Cairo on 17 August 2013. His sisters were later released, but Ibrahim remains in detention. His case is a matter of concern for me, as I know it is for many people.

From my first day in office, I have taken an active role in progressing matters. During my first week, I spoke to the Egyptian foreign Minister, Mr. Sameh Shoukry, and set out my concerns regarding Ibrahim's detention. I have spoken with Mr. Shoukry on a number of other occasions, including twice in person in New York and Cairo. I stressed each time that Ibrahim Halawa was only 17 years of age at the time the alleged offences were committed and asked for his release so that he might return to his studies and his family.

Officials in Dublin and Cairo have been in ongoing and sustained contact with the Egyptian authorities, including senior officials from the foreign Ministry, the Ministry of Justice and the Office of the Prosecutor-General. Ibrahim Halawa has received 34 consular visits from Irish Embassy staff, including our ambassador, Ms Isolde Moylan, with approximately one visit every fortnight, most recently on 7 February.

It is the view of the Government that Ibrahim Halawa should not be tried as part of a group trial involving a large number of defendants and on the basis of group charges, but solely on the basis of specific evidence. Our concerns about this case include the Egyptian authorities' continued consideration of Ibrahim's case as part of a group trial and the fact that he was only 17 years of age when the alleged offences took place.

Recently, I availed of the opportunity to raise this case directly with the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Ms Federica Mogherini. She undertook to raise the case with the relevant and appropriate authorities, and stressed that we could count on all the assistance that the EU institutions can provide.

I am concerned that, as Deputy Shatter stated, the trial was delayed for the fourth time on 8 February and is now scheduled to take place on 29 March. I have maintained ongoing contact with the Halawa family since August 2013. I met members of the Halawa family earlier today, at which time I discussed the postponement of the hearing and possible next steps. We will continue to work closely with them as we work actively on the case.

The Egyptian President has issued a decree in respect of foreign nationals in Egypt who have been sentenced or are awaiting trial. I am aware of the recent deportation from Egypt of the Australian al-Jazeera journalist, Mr. Peter Greste. However, there are few, if any, details available as to the exact scope and practical operation of the presidential decree. In particular, it remains unclear exactly what the decree may mean in practice for those whom Egypt regards as dual or Egyptian nationals, as is the case for Ibrahim. Officials in my Department remain in ongoing contact with Ibrahim's lawyer regarding this issue and continue to highlight his Irish citizenship and seek further information from the Egyptian authorities about the practical operation of the new decree. I am also aware that the other al-Jazeera journalists have been granted bail today pending their retrial later in the month. My officials are closely monitoring all developments and will remain in sustained contact with the authorities in Cairo.

This is a difficult case in a complex and challenging context. While Ireland cannot interfere with the judicial process in Egypt, our concern at the continued and lengthy period of detention has been raised with the Egyptian authorities in a clear and sustained manner, as has the critical importance of due process in this case. Ireland will continue to seek a review of the case. We will continue to seek Ibrahim's release and his return to his studies and his family. In the meantime, we will offer all possible consular assistance to Ibrahim and his family.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I would like to thank the Minister for his very detailed response. I know that, during my time in government, initially the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade was very anxious that matters be dealt with by its officials in Egypt, by the ambassador and, indeed, through that Department. The approach - which is the usual approach - was to provide all the consular assistance and advice possible on the assumption that matters would come before the courts within a reasonable period of time and there would be adequate human rights protections. I want to say to the Minister that I particularly welcome his comment that he is actively seeking the release of Ibrahim.

My understanding of the new legal provisions that are now in place in Egypt is that it is indeed possible that the President could decide to facilitate his release. He was in prison, sharing a cell, effectively, with Peter Greste, the journalist who has now been released and returned to Australia. This is a young man to whom great damage may be done by his continued incarceration. Not only will he experience the trauma of finding himself in these circumstances and the impact on his education, but he will need time to recover from the experiences that he has been through. It is of huge importance that we emphasise the urgency of this.

The one issue that I have concerns about - I know the Minister understands this and has mentioned it - is the concept of due process. There can be no due process in any trial in which an individual is prosecuted on a myriad of charges which are levelled against more than 490 other individuals and in which those against whom charges are brought are brought to prison and held in an enormous cage where it is difficult even to hear what is happening in the court, with no realistic capacity for lawyers to represent them individually.

This is a human rights issue. This is an Irish citizen. We are entitled to say to the Egyptian Government that this is not an appropriate way to proceed in its courts in dealing with an Irish citizen and that, in the interests of good relations between Ireland and Egypt, it should release this young man and allow him return home.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The Deputy will be aware that it is not within our power or authority to interfere unduly in a criminal matter in a foreign jurisdiction. That notwithstanding, I have outlined the steps that the Irish Government has taken and will continue to take in order to secure a positive outcome. This difficult and challenging case has consumed the attention of many of our officials for many months. I have twice met the Egyptian foreign Minister and had telephone contact a number of other times. I ask people to accept that Ireland is unable to interfere in the judicial process of another country, but we will continue raising our concerns.

This morning, I had a positive and constructive meeting with members of the family, during which I outlined the steps that we had taken to progress the matter. I can confirm to the House that those talks were held in a practical and open spirit in furtherance of our shared objective of seeking a positive outcome to the case. I will continue using every avenue available, including the recent presidential decree. In that regard, we are engaging in the legal and technical process in order to allow for the decree to operate in a way that will help in this case.

I again thank the Deputy for raising this issue. He has raised it with me over a number of months in correspondence. I will continue to keep both him and the House updated on all appropriate occasions as necessary.

Public Transport Provision

Deputy Sean Fleming

I wish to raise the role and powers of the National Transport Authority to deal with applications from companies that want to reduce their bus services through various areas throughout the country. I am raising this matter because of a recent letter I received from the chief executive of the National Transport Authority concerning services by Bus Éireann and Kavanagh's Buses through several midland counties. One sentence in the letter is most disturbing. It states: "Where operators apply to withdraw or curtail services the authority will grant such amendments as it has no legislative powers to refuse them." What is the purpose of having a regulator or authority if it has no powers to deal with issues that affect paying customers?

The letter also stated that Bus Éireann provides commercial route 7 between Cork and Dublin via Clonmel and Kilkenny. The service is licensed by the National Transport Authority. The authority recently granted an amendment to this licence which incorporated essentially going on the motorway in a more direct manner to Dublin Airport and the withdrawal of all services south of Clonmel. There has also been a withdrawal of all services provided to a number of intermediate locations, including Kilsheelan, Carrick-on-Suir, Paulstown, Muine Bheag, Royal Oak cross, Leighlinbridge, Carlow Institute of Technology, Carlow town, Castlecomer, Crettyard, Newtown, Ballylinan, which are in County Laois, Athy, Kilcullen and Naas.

According to the National Transport Authority, J.J. Kavanagh provides commercial route 717 on the same route. The service is also licensed by the authority. The authority has recently made an offer of an amendment to the withdrawal of this licence, which incorporates the introduction of faster routes along the motorway and a withdrawal of services being provided to Castlecomer, Ballylinan, KiIcullen and Naas.

It is an outright disgrace that all the authority does is rubber-stamp an application. Why bother having a transport authority if bus operators can do what they like in these situations? No public consultation is allowed by law. It is a hidden process and customers only know about changes when a notice is posted on the local bus stating that it will not be there next week.

These operators provide a service to carry people to work in all those towns, as well as to attend hospital and medical appointments and for shopping. The bus services also take pupils to school and students to Carlow IT. My colleague, Deputy John McGuinness, has attended many meetings on this issue in the Kilkenny and Castlecomer area, while Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, has attended similar meetings in Kildare.

This is a major issue and it is not the first time these bus operators have acted thus. Kavanagh's has already been allowed by the National Transport Authority to abandon people in Castledermot, Crookstown and Ballitore in County Kildare, all in order to get to the airport quicker from some other location. In addition, the National Transport Authority approved the entire abandonment by Bus Éireann of Abbeyleix, Durrow and Cullahill on the Dublin-Cork route last year, and more recently the abandonment of Mountrath, Castletown and Boris-in-Ossory in County Laois on the Dublin-Limerick route, all in order to go on the motorway.

I wrote to the chief executive of Bus Éireann and have also spoken to him about this matter. I have also contacted the National Roads Authority. There are six routes in each direction by Bus Éireann daily, while Kavanagh's has five buses in each direction in those areas. I have suggested that if some people want to travel more quickly by motorway, three or four buses could do so. However, the operators should not abandon the 12 buses that are passing through those towns and villages daily. They could have agreed to leave a proportion of them.

It should be remembered that they receive a public service obligation contribution from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. I will raise that matter in my supplementary question. They should not continue to get that PSO payment for a reduction in services.

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am very much aware of the importance of this matter and of the concern felt by many about the withdrawal, or threat of withdrawal, of bus services from their towns and villages. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ann Phelan, and I met last evening with residents from some of the towns affected by these changes.

At a national level, the National Transport Authority, NTA, has responsibility for securing the provision of public passenger land transport services. This includes the provision of subvented bus and rail services by Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail. The NTA also licenses commercial bus passenger services. Under the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, the NTA assumed responsibility for the regulation of commercial bus passenger services. The Act obliges all operators to be licensed if they are providing public bus passenger services, and it is applied equally to both private and State companies. Public service obligation services covered by public service contracts do not fall within the licensing system.

Commercial bus services are licensed in accordance with the provisions of the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 and in line with the NTA's published guidelines for the licensing of public bus passenger services. The guidelines are published on the NTA's website. The guidelines were prepared in accordance with the detailed provisions set out in section 23 of the 2009 Act. Where operators apply to withdraw or curtail commercial bus services, the NTA will grant such amendments as it has no legislative powers to refuse them. In such circumstances, the NTA may examine whether, in the absence of any commercial services, a public service obligation exists to provide socially necessary, but commercially unviable, public transport services. Such examination will include an assessment of the demand for public transport services and options either to reconfigure existing PSO services or to tender competitively for the provision of services. In either event, the NTA's ability to provide such services is subject to the availability of funding.

I need not remind the Deputy of the huge pressure on public finances that our Government inherited. Despite this, with our economy now recovering, I was able to secure an additional €101 million in funding for our public transport companies in a Supplementary Estimate at the end of last year. I was also able to maintain the level of PSO funding in 2015, as was provided in 2014. This is the first time there has not been a cut in PSO funding since the economy collapsed.

I am acutely aware of the concerns of many people regarding recent decisions to withdraw services to a number of intermediate locations on major routes into Dublin. Major improvements to the national roads network, including the M9 motorway, have provided the opportunity for commercial bus operators to offer improved journey times between Dublin and the regional cities in particular. Bus Éireann and other commercial bus operators have sought to amend their licences accordingly, with the consequent effect of reducing the level of service provided to a number of intermediate locations in the network. The NTA has indicated it will examine options either to reconfigure existing PSO services or to tender competitively for the provision of services to those areas affected by the changes. It must be recognised, however, that any such initiatives that involve additional PSO services would require a further increase in available funding.

It should also be noted that the 2009 Act provides that the NTA must undertake a review of the operation of the licensing of public bus passenger services within five years. I understand that the NTA intends to engage in a public consultation this year on this issue, and I will examine carefully any proposed changes to the licensing regime arising from that review. I assure the Deputy that I will also be examining this very issue in the coming weeks.

Deputy Sean Fleming

According to his response, the Minister has accepted that the decision is in his hands. He said the NTA will look at a reconfiguration of the public service obligation concerning these routes in such situations. It may also possibly consider a competitive tender for the provision of a route that requires a public service obligation.

Taxpayers' money is required to do this and it is stated that it is subject to funding from the Minister's Department. There is no point in the NTA proceeding if the Minister is not going to provide the necessary funding.

The Estimates meeting relating to the Department may already have taken place last week or it may be proceeding next week. When the Estimate for the Department comes before the House for approval, we will want to see that additional funding is being provided. Deputy McGuinness and I would like the Minister to indicate whether he gave commitments on this matter to the people he met in the past day or so. A temporary bus service, provided to get the Government over the hump until after the next general election, will be seen as just that. The public will see through any attempt to fool them for the next 12 months.

Does the Minister of State, Deputy Anne Phelan, to whom the Minister referred and who is responsible for rural development, have access to funding which might help ameliorate the position? The Minister of State is presiding over the withdrawal of services from rural areas, which is her mission and which is the reason she was appointed. It is important to make that point.

We know there are difficulties. The Minister cannot continue to give the €60 million or €70 million from the public service obligation to Bus Éireann, particularly in circumstances where it continues to withdraw services here, there and everywhere. Essentially, the company is now just a motorway bus operator and it is abandoning towns in every county throughout Ireland. Tipperary has been affected in this regard but the Deputies from that county will highlight that fact on another occasion. Deputy McGuinness and I are concerned about the routes from Castlecomer that run into County Laois through Crettyard, Newtown, Ballylinan and on to Athy in County Kildare. Some routes out of Carlow have already been discontinued. The Minister indicated that this matter may be reconsidered but the NTA's letter clearly states that it has approved the relevant changes. We want the Minister to provide the funding to replace the services in question.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The Deputy has just put on the record of the Dáil his request that I should withdraw PSO funding for Bus Éireann.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I did not.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

The Deputy just asked me to do that. If I were to do so, the effect on people's ability to travel throughout rural and urban areas of Ireland would be devastating. The Deputy has asked me to address and issue while simultaneously requesting that I withdraw the PSO funding for the public transport company whose job it is to respond to the challenges he has outlined.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I was referring to the money relating to the routes I mentioned.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

On two occasions, the Deputy asked me to withdraw the funding.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I am only talking about routes. I will not be misquoted by the Minister.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I have been very clear-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

On a point of order, the Minister misquoted what I said. I stated that PSO money should be withdrawn in respect of the routes the company is not covering and that is should be redirected-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Jack Wall)

Deputy Sean Fleming should resume his seat.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am sorry that my repeating what the Deputy said-----

Deputy John McGuinness

The Deputy just indicated that he did not say it.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

-----has had such an effect on him. I hope he appreciates the consequence of the course of action he has just outlined.

Deputy John McGuinness

Deputy Sean Fleming did not recommend what the Minister is suggesting.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I say to him what I said to the residents I met last night, namely, that I recognise this issue is having an effect on people. Much of this is due to the fact that a motorway, which was needed, has been put in place and is providing quicker access across particular areas throughout the country. Bus Éireann is now using the motorway in question and this is having an effect on communities. Last night, I asked the residents I met to indicate whether there are journeys they make frequently on particular routes where the provision of services would be of help to them. I informed them that when I receive the relevant information from them, I will examine it in conjunction with representatives from the NTA in order to discover how we might respond to this issue.

As the Deputy knows well, the Government that was led by his party introduced the 2009 Act under which the NTA was established. He, therefore, clearly understands how all of this works and that the NTA spends taxpayers' money which I make available to it. The legislation, which was introduced by the previous Government, gave rise to a welcome and beneficial change in the context of ensuring that we can spend taxpayers' money well. While I recognise the role played by the NTA, I also accept that this issue is the cause of frustration for people. As I outlined in my earlier contribution, the NTA will examine the position.

Deputy John McGuinness

There is a social need as well as a financial consideration.

Stardust Fire

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise this important matter in advance of the 34th anniversary of the Stardust tragedy. As we all know well, 48 people died and many more were injured on St. Valentine's Day in 1981 when a fire broke out in the Stardust nightclub in Artane. The majority of people in the Dublin Bay North constituency, particularly those who live in Artane and Coolock, have been affected in some way by this tragedy. There are many who knew, either directly or indirectly, people who lost their lives or who sustained injuries on the night in question. Some of those who live locally recall seeing the tragedy unfold as they ran towards the nightclub to assist. This incident has left its mark not only on the families and friends of those who attended the Stardust that evening, but also on the community as a whole, as people have attempted to come to terms with their grief.

The exact cause of the Stardust fire has never been established and it is very difficult for families to come to terms with the fact that no one has ever been brought to justice for what happened. The initial suggestion of arson has since been disputed. In his report into the events which took place in 1981, Mr. Paul Coffey, SC, found that "the cause of the fire is unknown" and that "None of the victims of the Stardust disaster or the persons present at the Stardust on the night of the fire can be held responsible for the fire". The relatives of the victims have for far too long been awaiting answers regarding exactly what happened on the night they lost their loved ones for far too long. They are seeking the truth and they want justice for their loved ones. They believe that investigations that have taken place up to this point were flawed. In that context, they are unhappy with the Keane and the Coffey reports and they want both to be removed from the public domain.

The Minister met representatives from the Stardust Victims Committee, which they very much appreciate, and listened to their concerns. In that context, I am aware that there is an ongoing Garda investigation into allegations that have been made and evidence that has been provided by some members of the committee. The families of the Stardust victims believe that new information regarding deaths that occurred some way from where the fire is thought to have started should be proof enough that a fresh investigation is required in order that the night's events might be re-examined. A researcher has discovered evidence which disputes the finding in the Keane report to the effect that the fatal fire did not start in the roof space. Rather, it is believed that the vast volume of fuel in the storeroom on the first floor, which was concealed behind a wooden wall, caused the deaths which occurred on 14 February 1981. I have been informed that the reports compiled by the researcher in question, Ms Geraldine Foy, were forwarded to the Department of Justice and Equality for investigation but that they have since been returned. There is major concern regarding the fact that an official in the Department who has no legal or technical expertise was asked to review the reports in question. The Stardust Victims Committee is concerned that they were not actually read during the 12-week period in which they were in the Department's possession. Is the Minister in a position to provide assurances that if the reports were to be returned to her Department at a later date, an official with proper and adequate expertise would actually review the evidence they contain as soon as possible? It cost a large amount of money and took a great deal of time for the evidence to which I refer to be compiled. It is only right and proper that it should be considered, in full, by the Government.

I accept that what I am about to say does not relate to the Minister's Department but I wish to bring to her attention the matter of the memorial park to the victims of the Stardust fire. Sadly, the park in question is not being adequately maintained by Dublin City Council and issues arise there from time to time with regard to anti-social behaviour. That needs to be addressed properly.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. Irrespective of any differences of opinion, no one disputes the magnitude of this tragedy or the impact it had on the families concerned and, as the Deputy said, the wider community. We are all conscious that the 34th anniversary of the fire falls this weekend and that this must be a particularly difficult time of year for all affected.

As the Deputy will be aware, following a long campaign on the part of the victims, Mr. Paul Coffey SC was appointed in 2008, with the agreement of the Stardust Victims Committee, to review the case made by the latter for a new inquiry into the fire. Mr. Coffey publicly invited submissions from all interested parties and the committee, to which the Deputy referred, gave extensive oral evidence and made written submissions as to its case for a new inquiry. Mr. Coffey's report concluded that, in the absence of any identified evidence as to the cause of the fire, the most another inquiry could achieve would be another set of hypothetical findings, which would not be in the public interest.

While Mr. Coffey's findings were widely welcomed at the time, there has continued to be dissatisfaction, which has given rise to extensive correspondence and communications between the committee and some of its representatives and my Department and other agencies. In these communications, the committee has continued to argue for the validity of an alternative hypothesis as to the cause of the fire.

I met representatives of the Stardust Victims Committee in July last year and this meeting provided me with a very good opportunity to hear their concerns at first hand. With regard to the question of any new evidence that might warrant the consideration of a further inquiry, two reports compiled by a researcher associated with the committee, who was named by the Deputy, were submitted to my Department last year. My Department was given to understand that a third and final report would be submitted in due course. However, no final report was submitted and the researcher concerned requested the return of the two reports that had been submitted. In compliance with this request, the reports were returned to the researcher. My Department has, through the Stardust Victims Committee, requested that the decision to withdraw these reports be reconsidered.

I have the greatest sympathy for all those affected by the fire, as I know does everybody in this House, and I understand that those involved in the committee remain convinced that their explanation for what happened on the night is, in fact, what did occur.

As I have outlined, my Department has requested that the decision to withdraw the reports be reconsidered. If these, or any other submissions, are received, they will, of course, be examined in detail and a response will be issued to the committee in due course.

Allegations raised by the Stardust Victims Committee and its representatives in regard to certain matters are the subject of an ongoing investigation by An Garda Síochána. I am informed by the Garda Commissioner that this is a complex investigation and, as the Deputy will understand, I cannot do anything that might cut across it. It is right, of course, that concerns about this dreadful and tragic event be raised in this House again. I again thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I thank the Minister for her response. She is well aware that the victims' families are not able to obtain closure regarding what actually happened on the night. There is a huge dispute over the findings of the two reports. Basically, the families feel the evidence provided to ensure there would be a fresh inquiry was not read by the Department and that the person examining the information had not the required legal or technical expertise to make an assessment. If the Minister could respond on this, it would be appreciated. Could she confirm whether the reports were read within the 12 weeks when they were in the possession of the Department?

People are very angry and feel justice is being denied to them. They believe nobody was fully held to account over what happened on the very tragic night in question. As the Minister said, allegations were made to the Garda. Could the Minister find out whether any information is forthcoming from the Garda on when its investigation will be completed? This would be appreciated.

I raised the issue of the memorial park. Perhaps the Minister could follow this up with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government because adequate funding must be found to ensure the park is appropriately maintained. It is currently dilapidated in parts and is not the fitting memorial to the victims of this terrible national tragedy that it should be.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

I am aware there remains dissatisfaction over the fact that it has not been possible to determine the true cause of the fire with certainty. I entirely sympathise with the concerns of the victims committee in this regard and I sympathise with all those who continue to be affected by the tragedy. However, the position is that an independent examination by Mr. Coffey was put in place to assess the committee's case. Substantial assistance was provided to the committee in order that it could participate in the process, and it did so. Mr. Coffey’s conclusions, as the Deputy will remember, led to motions of great significance being passed in both Houses clarifying the record as to the cause of the fire. This was extremely important, as acknowledged by everyone.

Mr. Coffey concluded that there remains no actual identified evidence as to the cause of the fire. In that context, and in line with the motions, the concern is that the best another inquiry could produce would be another set of hypothetical findings, which would not be in the public interest. However, as I have said, if any further submissions are made in this regard, they will, of course, be examined. Any reports that are given to the Department are dealt with and examined comprehensively. There is no question about that.

It would be unfair to those who have suffered so much already to raise unrealistic expectations about what can be achieved at this point. However, I will certainly take up the issue the Deputy raised regarding the memorial park. I am sure the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will act upon that.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 February 2015.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 12 Feb 2015