Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2022

Vol. 1029 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Special Educational Needs

Deputy Richard Bruton

I do not think this is a new story for Deputies in this House. They are aware of the serious problem we have with parents who get a diagnosis, wait a long period for an assessment of needs, AON, wait further for a statement of service and for the appointment of key workers, and then face a substantial wait for any therapeutic care.

A constituent who is one example among many was diagnosed at the age of four in 2019. A service statement was received four months later. A key worker was appointed over two years later and there is still no clear line of sight on when the needed therapeutic service, psychology, speech and language therapy and occupational therapy will be provided. In my area in north Dublin, over 3,000 children are in therapy and another 3,000 are waiting for it. The prospect for those in therapy of moving quickly through the system is not great.

I call for a root-and-branch review by the Department of Education, the Department of Health and the HSE of whether the system in place is broken. I was encouraged by the establishment of a pilot in the west of Dublin, where 75 schools and 75 preschools were to be supported by, as I recall, 19 therapists with different skills. This was to be the new approach. Although the pilot has reported positive support and success, the HSE withdrew the speech and language therapist and occupational therapist deployed for Covid work and the scheme has run into difficulties since. It has not taken on the expansion.

In a recent court case, the approach taken to try to move children forward has been deemed not to meet the needs of the legislation. We need to look at everything, including the legislation, to see if we can do better for these children. If we are having assessments of needs, the conduct of which absorbs many therapeutic resources, but then have a wait of three years before services are provided, one would question the value of the resources that go into such assessments. Three years on, the situation may be quite different. One wonders whether the education approach could deploy more effectively.

Some people will argue, rightly, that some children need one-to-one care that cannot be provided in a school context, but the HSE has now moved to provide group care support to parents. Why not provide supports to SNAs and resource teachers? There are 19,000 SNAs and, if I am not wrong, 13,000 resource teachers. That is a vast resource compared to the 230 therapists in my area, where the vacancy rate is almost one third. We have a resource supporting children with special needs. We need a deep reassessment of how we deploy the resource, which includes therapists, SNAs and resource teachers. Can we find a better way to support children, rather than having these long waits? At seven years of age a child is struggling and one wonders if it has been left too late, even if they get that intervention. I call for Ministers to get together, form a working group and have a serious review of this approach.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this Topical Issue matter. It is an important topic. As a previous Minister for Education and Skills, the Deputy did a lot of work. I think he introduced the school inclusion model, which I will talk about momentarily.

My Department's main responsibility in this area relates to the provision of education for children with disabilities, whether in mainstream settings, special classes or special schools. The provision of therapy supports for children with disabilities, as the Deputy pointed out, is a matter for the Department of Health and the HSE.

Having said that, I note what the Deputy said about a root-and-branch review and making sure that involves interdepartmental work. We have to take a cross-departmental approach to supporting our children and young people with disabilities. I assure the Deputy that a lot of work is happening in this space across the education and disability sectors. At ministerial level, I work closely with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, to progress a range of issues and new initiatives.

The Deputy has raised two important topics: reinstating therapy supports in our special schools and the school inclusion model.

It is important for the House to understand that expanding the school inclusion model instead of providing therapists into special schools is not in the best interests of children with special educational needs. The comprehensive on-site health and social supports to special schools that are provided by the HSE are entirely separate to the Department's school inclusion model. The school inclusion model was never intended to replace therapy services being provided by children's disability network teams in the HSE. Children need access to both community and school-based services.

The Deputy mentioned the reinstatement of therapists in special schools and the AON. My Department and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, have been working on this. My Department has been advised that the HSE has developed a programme for the reinstatement of 136 posts, which is in addition to the 85 reinstated posts for special schools announced in 2021. The intention of the HSE, as we understand it, is to implement the programme in three phases. The first phase will involve reassigning existing HSE staff to fill one third of the posts over September 2022 and the second phase will fill a further one third of the posts via existing panels, supported with further reassignment throughout autumn. In parallel with the first two phases, a number of initiatives will also be commenced, including a high-profile international recruitment campaign to fill vacant occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and physiotherapy posts.

My Department meets regularly with the Department of Health, the HSE and other Departments to monitor the progress being made on the reinstatement of these posts in our special schools. The latest update from the HSE indicates that 55 of the 85 posts allocated to support special schools in 2021 have been filled. My Department has been advised that the trade union representing personnel involved in this work issued an instruction of non-co-operation to its members regarding the reinstatement process. However, I understand that intensive discussions between the HSE and the trade union are ongoing to address the concerns of its members with regard to this initiative. The HSE remains committed to the programme and continues to engage proactively with the union to facilitate a resolution to this matter.

Deputy Richard Bruton

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. The root of the problem is that the demarcation between education and health is far too rigid. I question whether that is the reality of the experience of parents. As the HSE is not able to provide the one-to-one therapy, it is moving to group therapy and is encouraging and supporting parents to do drills, supports and activities. We have 19,000 SNAs and we increase that number by 1,000 each year. We have been successful in developing that service. There is not a high exit rate and there is not a problem with filling the posts we are assigning. If the problem is that we cannot fill the therapeutic posts for the foreseeable future, we need to look at whether we can develop a way in which therapists would work with SNAs and resource teachers to provide parents with a better context within which they can support their children. I do not see a prospect of the three-year wait being suddenly reduced. The effort was found to be faulty by the courts. Maybe the existing law is out of touch with the reality of trying to develop services in this area. I would go back to my original request. There needs to be a root-and-branch look at this, rather than the current approach where the two Departments stick to their demarcation lines with one recruiting speech and language therapists and the other recruiting SNAs and never the twain will meet. The pilot was a very good and optimistic route. I admit that it will not solve the problem for every child. However, it would allow us to reach more children and reserve precious therapeutic time for the children who need it most. I strongly advocate looking again at this whole context and framework.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I note what the Deputy said about the court ruling. He spoke about the demarcation between the different Departments. The Department of Education will be assisting the HSE in relation to the AON process, which will hopefully speed up the time within which children will get therapists and the therapy they require. The HSE is responsible for therapists being provided to special schools. I appreciate the point the Deputy is making about collaboration between Departments. Rather than having Departments in their silos, they can work together. I assure the Deputy that I am working very closely with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in this regard to try to sort out these issues, as well as working with CORU on workforce planning for therapists. That is a big issue and is the primary reason the school inclusion model the Deputy referred to has not been expanded. That has recommenced within the pilot, which was run in Kildare, west Wicklow and south-west Dublin. There were 75 participating schools. It was a multidisciplinary approach with occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and behavioural practitioners. We want to be able to expend that throughout Ireland because it would be a gold-star service for our children who so badly need it. That is a separate type of multidisciplinary approach to the therapists that are being provided to the HSE. I agree that we need to keep this under constant review and make sure we are doing everything we can to provide these services to children with additional needs. That might mean changing practices or looking at things differently and I concur with the Deputy in that regard, particularly given the experience he has had as Minister for Education and Skills.

Local Authorities

Deputy Claire Kerrane

Galway County Council is in a funding crisis. This is not news to the Minister of State. It has been raised in this House many times over many years. The question is why. It is because it is not getting its fair share of funding from central government. The facts speak for themselves. Galway is the second largest county in Ireland and it has the third highest population across the State, only behind Dublin and Cork. The funding allocation it receives makes no sense. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, would tell us that funding is determined by size, population, population distribution and demands for public services. Looking at funding per capita, there are serious and very obvious discrepancies with other counties smaller than Galway. Deputy Mairéad Farrell and I have raised those discrepancies before. Kerry, Donegal and Tipperary are all smaller than County Galway and they received funding of more than €900 per capita. Mayo received more than €1,000 per capita while Galway received €670 per capita. In 2018, there were increases across the board of between €82 and €121 per capita. Galway's increase was €22. The level of funding is totally inadequate for Galway County Council. It impacts on every single person living in County Galway. It means roads cannot be maintained and housing maintenance cannot be carried out. It impacts on the delivery of every single service right across the board and it impacts on the development of amenities in County Galway. The representatives for County Galway are totally on the same page about funding when it comes to Galway County Council. This issue goes far beyond politics. Given that the budget has now been framed, will the Minister of State look at funding for Galway County Council?

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Táimid ag ardú cheist maoinithe Chomhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe. Tuigeann chuile dhuine nach bhfuil a dhóthain airgid á fháil ag Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe le blianta fada. Feictear é sin go soiléir sna bóithre agus na droichid i gConamara. Fiú inniu, tá Bóthar Chuan na Luinge faoi uisce arís. Sílim go bhfuilimid ar fad ar aon intinn ar an gceist seo. Tuigeann chuile dhuine go dteastaíonn tuilleadh airgid agus sílim ón méid atá ráite ag an Rialtas cheana go bhfuil sé sásta breathnú ar an gceist seo agus cabhrú le Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe. Tá an cháinaisnéis á dhéanamh faoi láthair ag Comhairle Chontae na Gaillimhe. Tá sé fíorthábhachtach go mbeadh an chinnteacht sin ag an gcontae ag an bpointe seo.

My colleague, an Teachta Kerrane, and I want to raise again the issue of funding for Galway County Council. I think there is political consensus in this regard. Everyone is aware of the difficulties surrounding the funding that has been allocated over the years to Galway County Council. It is my understanding from a variety of meetings that the Government is looking to act on it at this point.

We know Galway County Council is looking at its budget at the moment. It is really crucial that it gets certainty on that now. If we take a look at the roads and bridges across Connemara, we see the very severe issues caused by the lack of funding. Two new funding streams have been allocated as a result of the increase in energy costs as well as pay deals, which is absolutely welcome. However, it is important to have certainty going forward into this budget process that there will be increased funding for Galway County Council.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Peter Burke)

I thank both Deputies for giving me the opportunity to outline funding and Government support for local authorities, with particular reference to Galway County Council.

Across all schemes and funding sources, my Department provided €82.9 million in 2020, €84.4 million in 2021 and €24 million to the end of September 2022 to Galway County Council. Included in this is the unprecedented level of support provided by central government during the Covid-19 pandemic.

In 2020, Galway County Council applied a 100% commercial rates waiver to just over 3,500 businesses and recouped €10.2 million in that regard. In addition, in recognition of Covid-related income losses and additional expenditure incurred, my Department provided funding of €2.5 million to Galway County Council in 2020. This support continued in 2021 when the Government introduced a nine-month commercial rates waiver applying to businesses most seriously affected by the restrictions, and a more targeted waiver for the final quarter of the year. Galway County Council received €7.3 million for this waiver and an additional €1 million for Covid-related income losses and expenditure for 2021.

The total cost of the waiver for the local government sector for 2020 and 2021 was €1.2 billion, and €191 million was paid out in additional support towards lost income and expenditure for the same period. In addition, the limited quarter 4 rates waiver has been extended to the first quarter of this year at an estimated cost of €61 million. Galway County Council will receive a recoupment of €950,000 in respect of this waiver.

For 2023, the Government is making a significant contribution of €421 million to support local authorities. A large portion of this figure, €287.2 million, will go towards assisting local authorities with the cumulative effect on pay costs arising from the national pay agreements and the unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation. This allocation will ensure that local authorities will have the necessary resources in terms of people to perform their functions and provide essential public services to our citizens; in excess of 1,000 services, in fact. The pay allocation for Galway County Council for 2022 is €5.8 million. This will rise to €8.1 million in 2023 to take account of the most recently ratified pay agreements.

As committed to in Programme for Government: Our Shared Future, the move to 100% retention of local property tax, LPT, will take place in 2023. All equalisation funding will now be met by the Exchequer to ensure all authorities receive, at a minimum, an amount equivalent to their baseline. Local authorities may also vary their local property tax rates by up to 15%. Authorities that increase the rate retain 100% of the additional income. Galway County Council will receive €155,561 in local property tax equalisation funding for 2023 in addition to the expected €14.3 million LPT yield to achieve a baseline funding level of €14.5 million.

We secured an additional one-off allocation of €2.75 million for Galway County Council for 2023 in recognition of the current financial challenges facing the authority, plus the additional €1.75 million in supplementary support in recognition of the increasing costs of service provision. This brings the total additional support for Galway County Council to €12.8 million for 2023, which is a considerable contribution from central government that should assist the authority in the challenging year ahead.

As I said, I had a number of meetings with Galway County Council and with my colleagues, Deputy Cannon and Senators Kyne and Dolan, regarding to the additional funding. The €12.8 million is a very strong contribution to the local authority in additional funding for 2023. My door is always open to further engagement with the local authority.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

With regard to the one-off payment allocation of €2.75 million for Galway, can the Minister of State advise whether that one-off payment will go to all local authorities? Of course, it is just a one-off. When we look at the discrepancies that exist with regard to funding, there is a clear issue. I do not hear the Government or Ministers acknowledging the issue regarding the level of funding Galway is receiving. There is a very obvious issue and I do not feel the Government recognises that.

The last time we raised this issue, the fact that Galway County Council opted out of increasing the local property tax was also raised. The nub of the issue is funding from central government, however. It would be very hard for Galway County Council to raise local property tax when we look at the amenities, the state of the roads and the level or lack of maintenance. People cannot be expected to pay higher local property tax and receive nothing in return. I see it in my office in Ballinasloe all the time. People come in with issues and we cannot move them forward, especially with regard to staffing. Another really major issue is the lack of outdoor staff in Galway.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

The crux of the issue is the one-off allocation of €2.75 million the Minister of State mentioned. I will be interested to hear his response to my colleague's question whether that is related to the additional one-off payment that I mentioned in my initial opening remarks and which I welcomed in this Chamber. The point is that it does not come to the crux of the issue and the serious lack of funding. The whole point is that everybody from Galway has absolutely been in agreement that there has been a lack of funding for Galway County Council. It is really important at this point to ensure there is engagement with the council when it is putting together its budget. Specifically, councillors have been raising directly with us how worried they are about framing this budget in this context.

Deputy Peter Burke

In the first instance, the €2.75 million is for Galway alone, not other local authorities throughout the country. That is a recognition of the total allocation of €12.8 million for 2023. That is a significant allocation by the Government at a time when moneys are, as we know, difficult to raise in the current circumstances.

I acknowledge Galway County Council is doing work in terms of its commercial rate space and also in terms of the €60 million supplementary support fund, of which it will be a key beneficiary. That will hopefully help it with the escalating costs of the inflationary crisis. However, I will note that one of the resolutions to this complex process and the funding of local authorities is the comprehensive review of current LPT baselines, which is happening in the coming months. That is starting to commence and will hopefully be concluded early next year. It is hoped that will give a very clear insight into the mechanisms in terms of allocating funding to local authorities. As I have always pointed out, my door is open to engagement with Galway County Council, as it has been since my appointment as Minister of State. I met with its representatives a number of times. I absolutely understand the acute nature of its financial position and the circumstances it is in. That is why the Government has made such significant support available to it this year and, I would add, in previous years.

Health Services

Deputy Holly Cairns

In August, we learned of a HSE proposal to limit home births to women and families who live within 30 minutes of a maternity hospital. This would have far-reaching consequences for families in rural areas who would be denied access to these maternity services. Home birthing will be prohibited in large areas of counties Cork, Kerry, Clare, Galway, Mayo, Donegal, Monaghan and Wicklow. This will impact thousands of families. The proposal was greeted with shock by midwives and women. The Midwives Association of Ireland and the Community Midwives Association have come out strongly against this plan.

On Sunday, there was a large protest outside Cork University Maternity Hospital. Families, parents, grandparents and children all turned out to oppose this attempt to remove people’s choices. Those who are directly impacted by this proposal do not want this. The healthcare professionals who run the service do not want this. Why is it being proposed? Who is pushing this agenda, and why?

This must be a political or a managerial decision, because it is not evidence based. Home births are safe. The current systems function well. They should be improved on and developed and not shut down. Community midwives provide an incredible service and this plan is doing them a considerable disservice. From experiences with friends and family, I cannot speak highly enough of the care and caution provided by community midwives. It is disgraceful that the HSE and the Government do not appreciate this.

The report on this proposal has no evidence base. It refers to an evidence review from 2015 and it states that at that time, "No studies were found that focused on transfers from stand-alone midwifery-led units, or home births and any adverse outcomes”. The report itself admits that it has no medical basis for this massive policy change, so why is it being proposed? I have to repeat the question. Who is pushing this and why? Can the Minister of State clarify if this is a political decision? The HSE is perpetuating a misconception that home births are not safe. They are safe. If it is so adamant expectant families need to be within 30 minutes of maternity hospitals, perhaps they need to look at providing maternity services in west Cork and other rural areas. The utterly ridiculous basis of the plan is that if home births can only occur within 30 minutes of maternity hospitals, then all pregnant women should never be more than 30 minutes from a maternity hospital, as they can go into labour at any stage.

We should have birthing clinics and midwife-led services across rural and urban areas, supported by well-resourced ambulance services. Why instead is the HSE being permitted by the Government to ban home births in rural Ireland? Rather than addressing the actual problems with the maternity services, time and energy is being wasted on this plan which has excluded midwives and has left thousands of families deeply worried about their reproductive choices.

Can the Minister of State outline what plans are in place to address the more than 100 unfilled posts in maternity services in hospitals in Munster? The staff shortages in our maternity services have been described as critical this week. Midwives in Tipperary University Hospital have warned that staff shortages are causing risks to the safety of women and babies. What is the HSE’s response? It is to force more families into already over-stretched hospitals. In this context, the plan is not only not evidence based, but it is also irresponsible and dangerous. The Minister of State has to stop it now.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Frankie Feighan)

I thank Deputy Cairns for raising this important issue and I acknowledge her ongoing work in the area of women's health. As the Deputy is aware, the HSE's national home birth service moved from community operations to acute operations within the HSE earlier this year. The home birth service is now being integrated into the maternity networks in line with the national maternity strategy. The core aim of that strategy is to provide safe, high-quality maternity care to the women of this country. As part of this transition, the HSE's national women and infant health programme, NWIHP, was asked to provide more specific guidance at national level regarding the appropriate distance a woman should live from a maternity hospital while accessing home birth services and to make a recommendation on this issue.

Using both obstetric and midwifery expertise, the NWIHP issued national guidance on home births on 14 July, recommending, from a clinical perspective, that it would be safest that all women accessing the HSE's home birth services would reside 30 minutes or less blue-light distance from their nearest maternity service.

When making this recommendation, the NWIHP took into account a range of factors, including the historic transfer rate into maternity units of mothers who laboured at home in the national home birth service, the primary reasons why women were transferred, the method of transfer, the need to factor in ambulance response times, the time needed to transfer the woman into the ambulance and the time until assessed upon arrival at the hospital.

The HSE's recommendation addresses the balance of risk that needs to be considered for home birth services. For example, if a woman has an emergency in a maternity hospital, and if a category 1 caesarean section is required, the woman must get to theatre within 30 minutes. In the event of a serious risk to a mother or baby in the HSE's home birth service being identified by the self-employed community midwife, this recommendation is designed both to ensure the best possible chance of getting to a maternity hospital in a timely manner to ensure the best outcome for mother and baby and to ensure that the clinical determination of the self-employed community midwife is acted upon in a safe and timely manner.

While I understand that the HSE's recommendation has caused concern for some, it is important to note that a geospatial analysis carried out by the HSE indicates that coverage will remain for 83% of the female population of childbearing age. While the home birth service represents only 0.7% of overall births, the HSE and NWIHP recognise that it is an extremely important pathway for women.

I would like to note that while choice for women is an integral part of our maternity services and of the national maternity strategy, the need to ensure safety must always be paramount. The objective of this measure is to enable the continuity of the home birth services whilst ensuring the best outcomes for mothers and babies in line with the objectives of the national maternity strategy.

Deputy Holly Cairns

I do not understand what the Minister of State means when he says “from a clinical perspective” because, like I said in my opening remarks, the report on this proposal has no evidence base. It refers to an evidence review from 2015 and I am going to quote it again. It says that at that time, "No studies were found that focused on transfers from stand alone midwifery led units, or home births, and any adverse outcomes”. When the Minister of State speaks about a balance of risk, I think he needs to specify what he is talking about because he too is perpetuating that misconception that home births are not safe. He says things like “best outcome”, “timely” and "safe”, but what is he basing that on, because there is no evidence to say that home births are not safe? I have to presume that the Minister of State does not actually realise the reality of them, which is that women are seen so often throughout their pregnancies and are very often referred to the hospital. This is only allowed to go ahead if the pregnancy is suitable for it. It is not what the Minister of State is making it out to be. That is something that he needs to look into.

I am still unclear about the motivation for this plan. Who is pushing for it? None of the relevant stakeholders wants it. Midwives are opposed to it. Families are protesting against it. Again, there is no evidence to support it. This is about quality maternity services and reproductive choices. Home births are safe. They are the preferred options for many families. The Government and HSE should be supporting people, not restricting their healthcare options. I really encourage the Minister of State genuinely to look into this instead of reading off that script, because it is misinformation.

A ban on water births is another limitation on reproductive choice. The Midwives Association of Ireland has called this ban "non-evidenced based, unethical and inequitable". The Minister of State must also be aware that the ban will put some women and infants at increased risk. There are people who for personal reasons and convictions will have a home birth regardless and they will be intentionally left without healthcare professionals now if this goes ahead. This is about reproductive choices and maternity healthcare that is genuinely centred on women and families. Unless the Minister of State intervenes, it will in essence be his Government’s policy to ban home births in rural Ireland.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

The Government and the Department of Health remain fully committed to the implementation of the national maternity strategy, including the development and delivery of home birth services. The 30-minute blue light distance that has been recommended by the HSE’s national women and infant health programme seeks to ensure that as many women as possible who wish to can access HSE home birth services in a manner that ensures the safety-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

It is doing the opposite of that.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

-----of both the mother and the baby. In making this recommendation, the NWIHP has taken into account many factors associated with home birth services and having looked at those factors, using obstetric and midwifery expertise, the NWIHP has sought to address the balance of risk that needs to be considered before providing the choice-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

Could the Minister of State publish those factors, then?

Deputy Frankie Feighan

-----of home birthing experience and the safety of the service for the mothers and babies who are in the care of the maternity services. To conclude, I again acknowledge that this has caused huge concern for some and that a small number of prospective parents are disappointed as a result.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue but I reiterate that guidance issued by the HSE is based on a clinical perspective-----

Deputy Holly Cairns

It is not.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

-----and the recommendations will help deliver safe outcomes for those accessing the services. The Department of Health and I will continue to work with the HSE's NWIHP to ensure maternity services continue to develop in line with the national maternity strategy.

The Deputy raised a few concerns and, if she wishes to email them to me, I will raise them with the Department.

Deputy Holly Cairns

Will the Minister of State publish those clinical decisions he keeps referring to?

Deputy Frankie Feighan

I will raise the matter with the Department.

An Garda Síochána

Deputy Jackie Cahill

Usually when Deputies get to their feet in this House, we are looking for resources to be put in place for our constituency. There is the nonsensical situation where access to a swimming pool in a town that locals have used since the establishment of the Garda depot in Templemore in 1965 is now being denied to them. This is nonsensical and makes no sense. Leaving the pool idle for the next few months, as we are told might happen, could result in serious infrastructural work having to be done to it to get it back into use, which would cost hundreds of thousands of euro. The Taoiseach visited my constituency last Friday and met Deirdre Ryan, one of the protagonists seeking to get this decision reversed. He could see no logic in the decision that had been taken.

For generations, locals have used the swimming pool on Friday nights for swimming lessons and instruction in water safety, and it has worked exceptionally well. This is not the first time the depot in Templemore has made a nonsensical decision. A number of years ago, it decided to stop taking supplies from local suppliers, such as meat, milk and vegetables, but that decision is, thankfully, starting to be reversed because it was costing the college money and it was not getting as good a service as it had been getting from the local suppliers. In this case, again, faceless civil servants are making a disastrous decision.

This is seriously damaging the relationship between the local community and the college. There has been a tremendous relationship between the people of Templemore and the surrounding areas and the authorities in the college. At times when the college was oversubscribed and it had too many recruits for the accommodation it had available, locals would take in recruits without hesitation. While there was a financial reward for doing it, it was a great inconvenience for the households that did it, yet they always took in students.

Last Saturday and yesterday in Templemore, public demonstrations were held. On Saturday, there was a large crowd, with many children who cannot understand why this pool, which their brothers and sisters once used to learn the art of swimming, is not being opened to them. We are told it is because of energy costs, but no one made any representation to get additional funding to cover the increased costs of energy. No one went looking for it from the Department.

The Taoiseach gave us a commitment on Friday that this nonsensical decision would be reversed. I call on the Minister of State to get the OPW and the authorities at the college to knock their heads together and give access to the college to the local area in the way that has always been the case since 1965. I cannot overstress the annoyance of people in the area in regard to this. I am often in the House on my feet looking for millions of euro for this or that in Tipperary. This time around, all I am asking is that the access that has been allowed to this pool since 1965 be allowed to continue. Surely that is not too much to ask. The local community in Templemore have always done everything they can to help the college prosper. The decision makes no sense.

I might highlight another issue that arose recently in the college. If senior Garda representatives come to the college on business, they now have to park in a car park a couple of hundred yards away from the depot. They are not allowed access to park their cars - again completely illogical. Someone who is in charge at the depot in Templemore has no common sense, and I want the relevant Minister to drive that point home.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. As he will appreciate, An Garda Síochána and the OPW have responsibility for the Garda estate and the Minister has no role in management decisions related to the pool at Templemore Garda college. It is my understanding the pool is used primarily for Garda training but has been made available to the general public for use on an ad hoc basis. I am advised that in 2017, a number of governance measures were put in place at the Garda college following an audit of the facility. One of these measures involved the awarding of pool licences by the OPW to any group external to the Garda college who wished to use the facilities. I am advised that between 2017 and 2020, a number of pool licences were awarded to local schools. These schools used the pool for one hour a week during the academic year. I am informed that while Garda management is consulted, the licences are issued by the OPW for the benefit of the local community on a not-for-profit and non-commercial basis.

As a result of the Covid-19 pandemic, the pool closed between March 2020 and March 2022 in line with public health restrictions. When the pool reopened in March this year, local schools were again granted licences, which ran until the end of the school year in June. It was anticipated licences would again be granted with the beginning of the new school year. I am informed An Garda Síochána has made the decision to close the pool for a period as an energy-saving measure in line with Government policy to reduce energy use at this time. I understand the OPW was consulted by An Garda Síochána, as the building owner and the body responsible for issuing the licences. Of course, I appreciate the disappointment expressed by the schools and families affected by this decision. I am assured this situation will be reviewed by the Garda college in the coming months, and I hope the matter can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties involved.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

As I said, the Taoiseach met Deirdre Ryan, one of the protagonists in trying to get the pool open to the public of Templemore, and it is clearly not his view that this is Government policy. As for energy saving, surely swimming lessons for the children of Templemore comprise an activity that warrants public expenditure. This notion it is for energy saving just does not wash and is not acceptable. I want the OPW and the authorities at the college to revisit this decision immediately.

They have also said they will not allow licences to be issued on a commercial basis. When an instructor is hired to give lessons, he or she has to be paid, yet they are saying that is a commercial activity. Again, that is not acceptable. No one is making a fortune out of giving swimming lessons to the children of the locality. They get a few euro to cover their expenses, as they have done for many years. I do not accept the idea this is an energy-saving measure in line with Government policy and, as I said, the Head of Government has stated he does not accept it.

I want the Minister for Justice, the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW and the Garda authorities to get this matter sorted out as soon as possible. Thankfully, in the programme for Government and this year's budget, it was announced that a significant number of recruits will start in the depot early in the new year, and the pool will be open for them at that stage. We want this decision to be reversed immediately. There are children in the locality whose siblings had swimming lessons there. To tell us this is an energy-saving measure is piling insult on top of insult. The swimming pool at the college has been used since 1965 with no problems. Granted, in 2017, there were issues with licences and so on, but they were smoothed out. Some civil servant is taking the view that this will look good on the bottom line. We are not accepting that and we want the decision to be reversed.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, I again thank the Deputy for raising the issue. As I outlined, the decision to close the pool was made by An Garda Síochána with a view to saving energy in line with Government policy.

I hope we can appreciate that the Minister has no involvement in operational Garda matters. The pool and management decisions on it are a matter for the Garda Commissioner and the Office of Public Works. I appreciate the disappointment of schools and families, outlined by Deputy Cahill, affected by this decision. I am assured the situation will be reviewed by the Garda College in the coming months, and hopefully sooner. Hopefully the matter can be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties. I thank Deputy Cahill again for raising this important issue and I will bring his views back to the Minister.