Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Social Welfare Payments

Deputy Pauline Tully

We need full disclosure and openness from the Government and those who were in positions of power in regard to the Government’s heartless political strategy to withhold and deny disability payments to those in residential care who were entitled to it.

This must involve the full co-operation of and transparency on the part of the Government, including the acceptance of any requests from committees for Ministers to address the matter.

The practice of successive Governments from the 1970s to the 1990s was to deny disability allowance payments to those in institutional care. This affected thousands of people in up to 140 institutional care homes. It has been estimated that somewhere between 4,000 and 10,000 people were affected during the period in which this payment was made by the Department of Health and another 2,700 after the then Department of Social and Family Affairs took over the payment. Many of these people had profound disabilities and relied on the State to care for them and to advocate on their behalf. Instead of advocating for these people, the strategy of successive Governments has been to conceal, deny, cover up and delay rather than protecting these citizens, who were often extremely vulnerable. It was a callous and calculated strategy to deny the most vulnerable their rights and one of paying up for those with the resources to take legal action and to punch down against those who did not. As shocking as these revelations are, they should not come as too big a surprise if we consider the other scandals in which successive Governments down through the years have tried to deny people rights by concealing information and settling on the steps of the court. I think of those affected by thalidomide, sodium valproate, the CervicalCheck scandal, the mother and baby home redress scheme and, of course, the nursing home fees.

A Government memo from 1997 estimated that claims from those affected could cost €350 million to €700 million before legal costs were taken into account. In 2006, a case was taken on behalf of a woman who had been receiving a disability payment prior to her admittance to a psychiatric facility in 1983. That payment was stopped within weeks of her being admitted. The case centred on the claim that the regulations that led to the discontinuation of her disability allowance payment were in conflict with the law and ultra vires and that they had no legal standing as a result. The case was settled in 2008. If, as the current Attorney General concluded yesterday, the State had no positive legal duty to make retrospective payments in respect of the disabled persons maintenance allowance, why were this case and others settled by the State? A further joint memo for Cabinet was prepared in 2009 by the then Minister for Health, Mary Harney, and the then Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Mary Hanafin, which assessed the potential implications of the case. Two members of the current Cabinet were also members of Cabinet when this memo was prepared and brought forward for discussion, namely, Deputy Micheál Martin, then Minister for Foreign Affairs, and Deputy Eamon Ryan, then Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Three other current Members from Government parties were also Ministers in 2009 when this memo was prepared for Cabinet, namely, Deputies O'Dea, Ó Cuív and Brendan Smith. Do they stand over the denial of these payments? Do they stand over the strategy to conceal, deny, cover up and delay rather than protecting vulnerable citizens?

In 2011, when the Fianna Fáil-Green Party coalition was replaced by Fine Gael and Labour, another brief was prepared on this issue. In the Dáil last week, the Taoiseach said that the legal advice regarding the disability allowance suggested that the State did not have a leg to stand on. How does this square with the conclusions of the Attorney General? The Taoiseach is reported as having said that the Government will do “whatever is legally required and morally just”. Will the Government do so now?

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Neale Richmond)

I am taking this debate on behalf of the Minister. I genuinely thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

At the outset, I will take the opportunity to set out the context for what is an extremely important issue which many people have become familiar with over recent days and weeks. The disabled persons maintenance allowance constituted a weekly allowance paid by health boards to persons who were unable to work by reason of a disability. The scheme was first introduced under the Health Act 1953 and remained under the responsibility of the Minister for Health, the health boards and the HSE for over 40 years.

Responsibility for the payment and administration of this allowance transferred to what is now the Department of Social Protection in 1996. At that point, the disabled persons maintenance allowance was discontinued and replaced by disability allowance. I should clarify that the legal concerns around the operation of this payment primarily relate to the period before the scheme transferred to the Department in 1996. Furthermore, since 1999, people entering nursing homes have retained their entitlement to disability allowance and, since the start of 2007, eligibility to the full rate of disability allowance has been extended to all people in a care setting. As such, these issues are historical and relate to arrangements that have not been in place for many years.

In response to public concerns, the Government asked the Attorney General to review the files in his office regarding charges levied for the provision of nursing home care and the non-payment of the disabled persons maintenance allowance to persons in residential care and to provide an account of the litigation management strategy adopted by the State insofar as it was based upon the legal advices provided by previous Attorneys General and the Office of the Attorney General. Yesterday, the Government noted the report from the Attorney General on these matters. The report is being laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and published. The report analyses the nature of the State's approach to civil litigation and provides an explanation of the litigation process. It considers the disabled persons maintenance allowance and the historical question of the legal authority to withhold payment of the allowance to persons in full-time residential care funded or part-funded by the State and litigation relating to non-payment of the allowance. It confirms that there was no positive legal duty to make retrospective payments.

Yesterday, the Government asked the Ministers for Health and Social Protection, Deputies Donnelly and Humphreys, to consider the report and revert to Government within three months. As the Taoiseach said earlier, the two Ministers will look at the report in the round. There are a lot of documents to consider, some of which date back to the 1970s and 1980s, and that is why it is important that adequate time is given to consider the issues at hand. Furthermore, the report by the Attorney General will be discussed in the Dáil tomorrow by Members from all sides of the House and it will also be considered by the relevant Oireachtas committee.

It is important that we do not provide mixed messages on this Government's support for people with disabilities. In budget 2023, a number of important supports were brought forward for people with disabilities, including: a cost-of-living double payment; a €500 cost-of-living disability support grant; a Christmas bonus double payment paid in December; an increase of €12 in weekly payments, with proportionate increases for qualified adults; and an increase of €20.50 in the domiciliary care allowance, which now amounts to €330 per month. These are just a few measures that build on a range of supports provided over successive budgets. I assure the House that the Government remains committed and ambitious in its support for people with disabilities.

Deputy Pauline Tully

The Taoiseach stated that while the Government has a responsibility to do what is right, it also has a responsibility to protect the taxpayer. The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, when speaking on "Morning Ireland" stated that the need to protect State resources had obscured the need to protect the vulnerable. He is reported as saying, "When the State is subject to legal actions, when it adopts legal positions, I think it's really important that those positions are influenced by the obligation that the State has to some of its most vulnerable citizens". That is the approach I urge the Government to adopt. I feel this is not about protecting public money. The State did not fight the church in court to get it to pay for all of the abuse it inflicted on children. It did not fight the suppliers of faulty cement blocks or the builders of shoddy apartments for their mistakes, or negligence, as I should say. It did not make them pay. The taxpayers shouldered the burden in those instances. The State will not make the strong pay but, if you are vulnerable or poor, you are deceived and robbed.

This State signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, in 2018. We should be bound by the commitments within that convention. I hope that the two Ministers will be guided by its contents as they carry out their review. I will speak on some of the convention's articles. Article 12 states that persons with disabilities should be given "the support they may require in exercising their legal capacity." Article 13 states that parties should "ensure effective access to justice for persons with disabilities on an equal basis with others". People with disabilities also have a right to information. Article 23 specifies that people with disabilities have the right "to social protection and to the enjoyment of that right without discrimination on the basis of disability" and that the State "shall take appropriate steps to safeguard and promote the realization of this right". That was denied to the people in question. I know the UNCRPD was only signed in 2018. Now that we have signed and ratified it, we have an obligation to live up to these commitments.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I go back to the Deputy's initial contribution. It is important to note, as the Attorney General points out in his report, that it is sometimes tempting to resort to generic stereotypes about the State being in some way unfair to its citizens when they are deprived of a benefit and bring legal proceedings challenging this deprivation, and that the logic behind such a perspective suggests that the State has unlimited resources, must concede every court case that is brought against it and must fund every claim for compensation or redress that is demanded of it. The fact that citizens have a legal entitlement to challenge decisions of the State before our independent Judiciary does not imply that all of those challenges are well-founded or that the State is not entitled to defend itself against legal challenge.

Governments must make hard choices all the time with finite resources, and the requirement to defend litigation that seeks to challenge those choices inevitably follows.

It is important to once again emphasise that these issues are historical. Over the period from 1999 to 2007, entitlement to full disability allowance was gradually extended by the Government of the time to people resident in institutional care settings. This shows that successive Governments sought to expand access and funding in a progressive manner. The track record of the Government over recent budgets shows that we have taken concrete steps to support people with disabilities. I assure the House that this remains a firm Government priority. The Ministers for Health and Social Protection will now consider the report and revert to the Government within three months. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and look forward to engaging further with her and others on this issue in due course.

Arts Policy

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I wish to discuss the Youth Arts Now report commissioned by the local authority arts services of Kilkenny, Carlow, Wexford and Waterford, together with Creative Ireland Waterford, and facilitated by Waterford Youth Arts. It was launched this day last week in Smock Alley Theatre. It was fantastic to see so many young artists there doing exactly what young artists should, expressing themselves, finding meaning and making art. The report provides a clear-eyed overview of the current context in the youth arts. While it fully acknowledges the increased levels of funding being made available to the arts sector under this Government, it still echoes in its introduction the finding of the National Youth Council of Ireland that the youth arts sector is still working with inadequate, inconsistent and piecemeal funding for youth arts provision set within an under-resourced youth work sector.

The report prompts us to ask what we are talking about when we talk about youth arts. Among its 19 findings, the report states that national policy is distributed across many policy sites and Departments and each Department has priorities and outcomes peculiar to itself. Consequently, youth arts as a stand-alone practice can fall between policy cracks. Youth arts is treated as an input into other policy objectives and not a sector in its own right. There is little priority given at a national level to the idea of young people as artists. The emphasis falls on personal, social and economic outcomes. Funding enters the sector from multiple sources, with different criteria. Funding is increasingly outcome-driven as opposed to rights-based, with a particular emphasis on improvements in individual well-being and tending towards targeted as opposed to universal provision and access.

Is it the case that we think youth arts should do something in order to earn its crust? It certainly can be useful to help resolve issues like social inclusion or to explore mental health difficulties. Surely youth arts also has to be a space in which there are no objectives other than for young people to have the space to make art. Chief among its ten recommendations, the report argues that the national strategic youth organisations and those working in the delivery of youth arts must collaborate on a framework national youth arts policy, built on a sector-wide agreed definition of youth arts and a vision for the development of youth arts. Are there plans afoot in the Department to do that?

I want to finish on the words of Mary, who helped launch this report. She states:

My mother signed me up for creative writing classes with Waterford Youth Arts when I was thirteen, and I hated her for it. My words were mine. I didn’t want someone to read my words and tell me that they were wrong. I didn’t want anyone telling me what to do with my words, or what to do at all. My mother signed me up for creative writing classes and it was one of the most influential moments of my life. It took a while, but when I shared my words, I found that there were no harsh critiques, there was no scorn, no side eye glances at the weird sideways girl.

I am the person I am today because of youth arts. It isn’t simply a youth club, or a school play, or some handmade posters on a wall. Youth arts is a living breathing thing. It fosters and nurtures creative self-expression, which in turn nurtures a young person into a young adult. I know I still have a lot to learn about life and myself even. But, having grown up as a veteran of youth arts, I’m not the weird sideways girl I used to be. I’m confident, and I’m brave, and I have the strength to follow the path I’ve chosen for my life, winding and bumpy as all life paths turn out to be.

Really, what more should we ask than that? We should be less focused on objectives and outcomes and more focused, in a coherent way, on creating a space where young people can authentically express themselves.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I am responding on behalf of his party colleague and my constituency colleague, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin. I was very touched by the Deputy's contribution and I am very well aware that this is a personal passion of his as well as something he is bringing forward on behalf of his constituents. The Deputy notes the local authorities and counties that came together in order to commission this report together with Creative Ireland Waterford and facilitated by Waterford Youth Arts. It was also funded under the Arts Council's collaboration scheme.

The Deputy knows better than anybody else that Waterford Youth Arts has a long track record in this area. This report is an interesting example of a multidisciplinary youth arts hub or resource in their local area. A particular highlight in recent years has been The Lit, a youth-led literature festival which has been funded via Waterford Youth Arts annual programme of activities. The Deputy's expression and his emphasis on the importance of creative writing and being able to give people the space to develop that are well made. I also understand that this organisation has made incredible efforts to structure its youth arts programme and to support its young members.

This report by John O'Brien is very timely indeed. The research report studies youth arts policy at a national level and it builds on previous work commissioned by Youth Arts Now regarding youth arts. It is interesting to see the mapping of funding going into youth arts and to note the obstacles faced by these youth organisations. The report contains a number of interesting case studies and, most importantly, makes a number of recommendations which will no doubt contribute to the debate about the future of youth arts in Ireland.

Under the Arts Act 2003, the Arts Council has primary responsibility for the development of the arts in Ireland. The council works under its ten-year strategy to address its statutory remit through a policy-driven focus on investment, advice, advocacy and partnership including investment in the traditional arts. The Arts Council offers a wide range of financial supports including for young people, children and education. The Deputy will be interested to note that with the Government's recent support to extend the Creative Ireland programme for the period 2023 to 2027, the Minister will be bringing a new Creative Youth plan to Government for agreement. This will be along with her Cabinet colleagues, the Ministers, Deputies Foley, O'Gorman and Harris. Like its predecessor, the plan will operate across formal education and training settings and the wider community, and will provide further support for professional development.

The first Creative Youth plan provided a collaborative framework to enable the creative potential of children and young people. Since 2017, over 2,000 schools and Youthreach centres have had the opportunity to enrich their school's creativity through programmes such as Creative Schools and Creative Clusters. Educators such as the Deputy have been supported to embed creativity into their professional teaching practice. Access to programmes such as creative writing, youth drama and creative technology has expanded in communities. Local Creative Youth partnerships have been established in six education and training boards, prioritising provision for seldom heard children and young people in their locality.

Under the Creative Communities initiative, I understand that the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, together with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, provides funding to each of the 31 local authorities to support culture and creativity teams to implement their individual culture and creativity strategies. These teams also deliver Cruinniú na nÓg, the flagship national day of free creative activities for children and young people. To date, over 2,800 events have taken place in partnership with all 31 local authorities. For example, 20 events were held across Waterford last year. The next Cruinniú na nÓg is scheduled to be held on 10 June this year where many more children will get to participate in this national day of free creative activity for young people. I underline the importance of letting children expand their own creative horizons. I fundamentally believe that should be the main focus of this and I know my belief is shared by Government colleagues. The end goal is to get as many people involved and doing what they love in a space that they find is comfortable for them to truly express themselves.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I very much agree with that final sentiment. This has to be about facilitating children and young people and having that space to make art. Just in listening to the reply, however, we heard references to the Department of Education, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, in its local government aspect.

When I first entered politics, I was given some advice by former Deputy Trevor Sargent. He told me that one of the main challenges was to get a Minister to put his or her name to a proposal to avoid it being bounced around from Department to Department. The report reads:

Funding tends to be small, project focused and not guaranteed across time, creating a dependency on volunteerism ... at the point of delivery. This level of funding [on a short-term basis] positions youth arts as a non-professional practice outside of the area of state responsibility [and essentially being bounced from pillar to post in terms of funding].

The Minister of State mentioned how Waterford Youth Arts had been in the business for a long time. Ms Breda Murphy and Mr. Ollie Breslin have been involved in it for probably more years than they would care to admit. However, instead of focusing on arts practice and fostering the artistic expression of young people, a large part of the job is chasing money from pillar to post. We need to be more coherent in bringing everything together and making it a reliable job for the people involved.

It might be the first time the Minister of State is hearing this, but the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, is probably sick to death of hearing about how we are developing a framework for progressing well-being budgeting. I have been arguing consistently that we should have a 12th indicator that measures arts, culture, language, etc. Through such a framework, perhaps we could enhance our understanding and appreciation of what arts can do within our society.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I am taken by some of the Deputy's comments. It is important to assure the House that the Government is committed to youth arts, particularly in the context of Creative Youth, which is one of five pillars of the Creative Ireland programme. Creative Youth is being implemented by, and is focused through, the Department of the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. She is the Minister putting her name to it. However, the Deputy will appreciate that this is being done through partnerships. Be it in the formal education setting or the wider community setting, there must be buy-in by Departments, their agencies and local authorities. We cannot restrict this to one field. It cannot just be for people who are of school-going age, are within the formal education sector or have decided to proceed with a creative arts vocation. This is something that should be for every young person if he or she so chooses or, as in the case cited by the Deputy, if his or her parents so choose. He and I shared a video a couple of weeks ago of my son's attempt at creative art not long beforehand as part of junior infants. That was not necessarily something he wanted to be a part of, but it was the first thing he talked about when he came home. He is still singing about penguins. I hope he continues doing so, be it in the formalised education sector or more widely.

I take seriously the Deputy's points about the frustration of those who are entrusted to develop and deliver youth arts. We must ensure that they can make a career or living out of it. I will bring all of the Deputy's concerns to the Minister. She is well versed in the Deputy's opinions on the indicators. This is one that merits deep consideration. I will bring it to the Minister and other Government colleagues in due course.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Deputy Jackie Cahill

I wish to address the benefits that can be generated by genotyping the national herd. Anyone with an understanding of the sector will agree on those benefits.

In recent years, this House has spent a great deal of time debating emissions reductions and our battle against climate change. I have been a stout defender of the agrifood industry. While we must face up to the reality of climate change, we cannot hinder our ability to produce food sustainably. We must be able to protect our production base.

We have an emissions reduction target of 25%. Research shows that genotyping can play a large part in achieving that reduction. The Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, has conducted a great deal of research into this matter, as have other bodies. It is estimated that we could reduce our emissions by 10% by genotyping our national herd. That would go a long way towards meeting the targets to which we have committed.

How could such a reduction be achieved? Just before Christmas, I was on a research farm with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It was run by a meat processor. We were shown animals that were fed the same, born roughly at the same time and were at the point of being ready for slaughter. On average, there was a difference of 120 kg liveweight between one bull and another. If we can get that genetic improvement into our beef animals with the same feeding, same carbon footprint and so on, it will have a major impact on reducing our emissions. The same would be true in dairy, where cows with the same feeding could produce extra kilograms of protein and butterfat. This could be of significant benefit. One upside of this increased efficiency is that it could bring economic gains for the farmer. We would also be the first country to do this with our national herd, which would give us a significant advantage in the marketplace. Having emission-efficient animals and being able to show that we were producing food sustainably would help our green image. By genotyping our herd, we could tailor our breeding to make vast improvements as well as significant reductions in our emissions.

This will not be an easy task. I urge the Minister to make decisions on the matter quickly. Genotyping the herd will be a physical job. Doing the adult bovine population will take time. Even if we started soon, we would only get 50% of the herd done this year. It will cost money as well, which needs to be committed to, but it would be money well spent.

There will be other debates in the House about climate change and some of us will argue different approaches to it, but whether one is the staunchest environmentalist or a staunch defender of the agrifood industry, genotyping the national herd ticks all the boxes. We can protect our production base and reduce our emissions. To paraphrase a TV sitcom, everyone would be a winner.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank Deputy Cahill for raising this important issue and for outlining the benefits that genotyping would have for our national herd. As the Deputy knows, this is a matter that I have spoken on recently. I have outlined clearly that it is my ambition to ensure that Ireland's is the first beef herd in the world to be fully genotyped. I look forward to taking steps towards that and ensuring we can deliver on it.

Food Vision 2030 is our ten-year strategy for the sustainable development of the agriculture and food sectors. It is our lighthouse policy. Under it, I established two groups - the dairy Food Vision group and the beef and sheep Food Vision group - to advise on how we can meet our 25% emissions reduction target by 2030. In terms of contributing to that, one of the key measures that the groups agreed and advised on was the development of methane-mitigating breeding strategies to build efficiency traits. The key initial component that would be needed to underpin these breeding strategies is a national genotyping strategy.

Genotyping the national herd, and acting effectively in response to the information gathered from that, has the potential to impact positively on farmers' economic and environmental sustainability. Traditionally, the genetic improvement of farmed livestock has been based on the use of data collected on animals in the breeding programme, namely, identification, ancestry and animal performance. Since 2009, this has been increasingly complemented by the addition of genomic, or DNA profile, data.

Through having precise knowledge of the DNA markers associated with the genotype of each animal, livestock breeders can increase the accuracy of selection for traits of interest for both dairy and meat productivity and quality and more recently, methane output. This can result in an almost doubling of the rates of genetic gain achievable, compared to conventional breeding programmes. In addition to improving economic and environmental sustainability, genotyping the national herd would have a number of co-benefits, including providing a unique selling point in terms of traceability, which is important for marketing our quality produce; and providing greater certainty about the quality of dairy beef calves, with benefits both for the farmers rearing those calves and for calf health and welfare.

In Ireland we are well placed to develop work in this area. Currently, Ireland has a relatively high level of genotyping when compared to other countries through innovative programmes such as the beef data and genomics programme and the soon-to-be-launched suckler carbon efficiency programme. Work undertaken by Teagasc and the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, has highlighted the significant benefits that can accrue to Irish farmers and related industries with higher genetic merit herds being more profitable and with a lower carbon footprint than lower genetic merit herds.

I am cognisant of and welcome the strong support of all stakeholders for genotyping of the national cattle herd. My ambition is that Ireland will become the first country in the world to genotype all livestock in the country. I want this to happen, I am determined that it will happen and I believe it will happen. By delivering it, we will continue to show the world that Ireland is more than an outpost on the edge of Europe. We will show that Ireland is a leader worldwide in our beef product. We are leaders and pioneers. We have a beef sector that is the envy of the world. As the Deputy is aware, the starting point in all of this is the farmer who calves the cow, rears the calf, produces the weanling or store and ultimately, finishes the animal. I am considering with my team how this might be achieved, having regard to the funding that will be necessary, the climate impact and a variety of organisational and logistical challenges. We can only do this if we are satisfied that it will lead to a real and measurable reduction in emissions and productivity. The Department and I will continue to engage with these stakeholders with a view to fleshing out and taking forward these proposals. I thank the Deputy for raising the matter today, and for his strong advocacy for this as a strategy and a way forward for our beef industry.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

I welcome the Minister's answer. I think we are in full agreement on the huge benefits of genotyping our national herd. The accurate information that will be generated will have huge benefits for us. However, with respect, I want to emphasise that this is urgent and we need to get it moving as quickly as possible. It is estimated that Exchequer funding of €40 million to €45 million will be required to genotype the adult herd, alongside an ongoing expense each year on genotyping newborn calves. To me, it is too good an opportunity to let it pass us by. I fully accept that the Minister has no intention of allowing that to happen. I urge him, with all haste, to get this up and going. As I said in my initial statement, it is going to be a physical job to genotype the adult herd. According to the ICBF estimate, even if we started on 1 March we would only get 50% of the adult herd done this year. In order to get this up and running and to gain the benefits from it, we need to commit to starting as quickly as possible. I think we will get huge buy-in from farmers for the scheme. As I said, it ticks all the boxes. It will help us to meet our climate change targets and it will also deliver economic benefits to the farmer. I have always clearly stated that in my view, proper use of technology and the modern advances that are there can actually benefit us environmentally and economically at farm level. That is something that I have very strongly advocated for. This is an ideal vehicle to achieve that. The money that we spend on a 10% reduction in our emissions will be a small price to pay for that significant reduction.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I thank the Deputy. Certainly, there is an urgency around this. I have outlined my ambition to make sure that Ireland is the first country in the world to have genotyped our full beef and livestock herd. That is something that I am now taking forward with my own Department and stakeholders. We are assessing and identifying the verifiable emissions reductions from doing that, and also the economic potential in relation to it. There is a serious job of work to be undertaken here. We are ahead of the curve in the extent to which we use genotyping currently through the various schemes I have outlined. We want to ensure that all animals are genotyped and that the benefits of that are felt by farmers in their productivity, profitability and sustainability. It has really exciting potential and can ensure that we remain at the cutting edge of the beef industry internationally and at a peak in relation to the sustainability of how we produce our beef. I look forward to working with the Deputy, as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and with all stakeholders on how we can take this forward and ensure we can make it happen.

Hospital Services

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Faraor, táimid ar ais arís go dtí an t-ábhar seo. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil suim ag an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Rabbitte, sa scéal seo ach táim ar ais arís ag ardú na ceiste seo, ceist a d'ardaigh mo bheirt comhghleacaí as Gaillimh, an Teachta Ó Cuív agus an Teachta Mairéad Farrell, nuair a bhí mise sa Chathaoir siar i nDeireadh Fómhair. Faraor, níl aon dul chun cinn déanta. Táimid ag leanúint ar aghaidh agus an baol ann i gcónaí go ndúnfaidh an t-ospidéal, ospidéal atá lárnach don cheantar, atá thar a bheith tábhachtach chun an brú ar an ospidéal i nGaillimh a laghdú agus lena mbaineann an méid sin buntáistí eile. Unfortunately, I am raising the issue of Clifden District Hospital again. I am hoping the Minister of State might have some good news today. I doubt it, but I hope she does, because we are still in the same situation as we were previously. As the Minister of State is aware, my two colleagues raised the issue back in October when I was in the Chair. We did that as one voice. We had meetings with staff and the union.

I will put it into context for the Minister of State. HIQA visited Clifden District Hospital in the middle of the Covid pandemic. Its conclusions on six measures were that the hospital was fully compliant on three of them, substantially compliant on two of them and partially compliant on one of them. That is a pretty good judgment from HIQA. It went on to point out that the feedback from the patients was positive. It noted some difficulties with the infrastructure. In particular, it was brought to the hospital's attention that there were not enough showers or enough showers geared towards gender, there was a lack of sinks and problems like that. Overall, the hospital got a thumbs-up from HIQA in the middle of Covid. Of the six measures, it was completely compliant on three measures, substantially complaint on two measures and partially compliant on one measure. The one that is was partially compliant was eminently in relation to-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Catherine Connolly

On the day that HIQA visited, it was noted that the hospital comprised 21 beds, 19 of which were occupied. Everybody was glad in a sense, because it left more room for manoeuvre in relation to Covid. It is interesting that the report noted that the hospital accommodated patients requiring rehabilitation, convalescent and palliative care. The report stated that patients were admitted to Clifden District Hospital from University Hospital Galway. Inspectors were informed that admissions direct from the community to the hospital were stopped, but only because of Covid. Up to that point, there were referrals from the community and referrals from the hospital. I do not know where else the referrals were coming from. That is HIQA. Then there are the local doctors who the Minister of State is very familiar with. GPs do not often go out on a limb, do they? I know of a local GP, Dr. Casey, who has been there for 50 years and his son practises with him now. He has begged and implored the HSE to restore the hospital and the functions it had. I do not feel it is my place or that of the Minister of State to be in between unions and employers, but the nurses are saying that the HSE has orchestrated this downgrading of the hospital because they believe it wants it for another purpose that has not yet been revealed.

If they do not advertise that they are open for business, they will not get the business. We have been given many contradictory reasons by the HSE on this. One reason is that it cannot get staff. It launched a special recruitment campaign and got more than 20 applications. A number of individuals were shortlisted. In the end, it got one nurse who will not be available until 2024. There is something seriously wrong. Am I over time?

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Slightly.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I will stop now.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

It is seldom we hear a Minister of State say that a Deputy should continue. I am taking this important matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, who has a dose of flu. I thank Deputy Connolly for raising it.

I will begin by acknowledging the vital healthcare role that Clifden District Hospital plays and the excellent level of care and support which it provides to patients and their families in the Clifden community and surrounding areas. I assure Deputy Connolly that there are no plans to close Clifden District Hospital. However, we are aware of the various challenges that the facility is facing. I assure the Deputy that the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is committed to working alongside HSE Community Healthcare West to address these issues. As Deputy Connolly is aware, Clifden District Hospital has been primarily designated to provide convalescent step-down care to patients discharged from acute hospitals. It also provides respite beds to allow family carers in the community a welcome break. However, with the evolution of Sláintecare and the transition of care from acute to community settings, the need for these step-down beds has reduced.

In the Clifden area, there have also been significant challenges over many years to secure sufficient nursing staff, despite national, international, and local recruitment drives. This is the case both in Clifden District Hospital and in St. Anne's Community Nursing Unit, a designated centre registered with HIQA to provide a home for older people. HSE Community Healthcare West, in keeping with its commitments to political representatives, its staff, and their representatives, undertook a bespoke nurse recruitment process in October. At a minimum, four additional nurses are required to sustain the current residential older people services in both St. Anne's Community Nursing Unit and Clifden District Hospital. The HSE will continue to undertake bespoke campaigns to fill these vacancies but continues to face challenges filling these posts. HSE Community healthcare west has assured the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, that it will continue to review service needs and what services can be provided based on the available staffing. It will also continue to engage with staff, unions, GPs and political representatives in this regard.

I would like to inform the Deputy that last November HSE Community Healthcare West met local GPs. The GP engagement involved an initial meeting with HSE management and a follow-up meeting with a consultant geriatrician. The consultant geriatrician outlined the integrated care programme for older persons, ICPOP, services being rolled out as part of the enhanced community care programme, including the visiting satellite clinics based in Clifden District Hospital. The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, was delighted to hear that the visiting clinic commenced last month with an expected monthly service from the consultant geriatrician and a twice monthly service from the ICPOP team, incorporating physiotherapy, occupational therapy, dietetics and nursing. This is a welcome addition to services provided in Clifden District Hospital.

The day service at Clifden District Hospital remains in operation, and a new bus service is available to those seeking to access it. HSE Community Healthcare West is aiming to expand this service. It is important to highlight again that there are no plans to cease services or close Clifden District Hospital at present . The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, will continue to engage with the chief officer in HSE Community Healthcare West to ensure the continuation and possible expansion of services in Clifden.

As a Minister of State who represents Galway, I would certainly like to see Clifden District Hospital remain in full operation. I give my full endorsement to its operation, knowing the geography of the county as I do. I can leave my house in Portumna and be in Leinster House quicker than I would ever be on the far side of Galway city. It is very important to understand the size of Galway and the geographical need. There is also the ageing population and the valuable role that Clifden District Hospital plays in the community.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I thank the Minister of State. I acknowledge positive comments she made and the information she put on the record. To put this in the context I will speak about the number of people on trolleys in a centre of excellence in Galway, although I have been corrected for calling it a centre of excellence because that is only with regard to cancer care. Nevertheless it serves an area of between 800,000 and 1 million people. There were 42 patients on trolleys there today. Clifden District Hospital closed over Christmas. It also closed in November because it had no staff or could not staff the nursing home. Staff are being moved back and forth. As I understand it, there is an ongoing dispute with the union on this. What I am most unhappy with is that the hospital has closed twice. This is in an area where it is vital as the Minister of State recognises. It is vital to take the pressure off the regional hospital. It is vital because of the elderly population, which is increasing as Dr. Casey has repeatedly pointed out. He has also pointed out the range of services that could be provided in Clifden to take the pressure off other hospitals.

I worry when I hear that there are no plans to close Clifden District Hospital. It worries me how language is used when we get a little lecture on primary care and a geriatrician telling us the good things. We know this, and it is brilliant. I praised those involved when we had a meeting and learned about primary care on the ground. I worked in primary care. However, it is no substitute for a hospital that provides services. When I ask why services are not available in Carraroe or why there are no respite beds there I am told that they are in Clifden. Merlin Park is the primary place for respite beds, with 13. I am told that Clifden has 12 respite beds. I go around in circles with all of my pieces of paper. Even on the issue of respite beds alone there is a need for Clifden District Hospital based on the figures, not to mention for convalescence and other possible services that should be there.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The provision of short-stay beds, including respite beds, is an integral part of the integrated model of care for the provision of services for older persons. I am aware the services provided in Clifden District Hospital are highly valued by the wider community and in older person services in HSE Community Healthcare West. Unfortunately, short-stay capacity in public hospitals and community nursing units can be impacted for a number of reasons. These include HIQA. As Deputy Connolly said earlier, HIQA has found no fault in Clifden District Hospital. Short-stay capacity can also be impacted because of infection prevention and control and staffing challenges.

As I have already outlined, we are very aware of the challenges that Clifden District Hospital faces. I advise Deputy Connolly that the HSE has assured the Department that it is committed to providing services to older people to meet the demands for short- and long-term services for people in Galway. The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, was delighted to hear the integrated care programme for older persons was launched at Clifden District Hospital last month. ICPOP services ensure that older people with complex care needs can access care quickly or near home through care pathways specifically designed for older people. They target frailty, falls and dementia. This is a welcome addition to the Clifden District Hospital. I assure the Deputy there are no plans to close Clifden District Hospital. I reiterate that the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is fully committed to working alongside the HSE to ensure that services at Clifden District Hospital continue.

I must compliment Breda Crehan-Roche on the work she does. If I were to lean on her, it would be in the context of saying that it is vital that the service stays open at all times. We cannot have an ad hoc approach whereby it opens and closes. We need to ensure the staffing, even if it is relief staff coming from community healthcare in the city, must be provided. We need a pragmatic approach to ensure that at all times Clifden District Hospital remains open and that the people in the community are reassured that the service is stable and responding to their needs.