Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 1

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

First of all, I wish to record the shock felt across the world at the natural disaster and devastation we have witnessed in Türkiye and Syria. We extend our solidarity to all those hurt and injured and urge the global community to rally to the support of these devastated communities.

Last Thursday the European Central Bank increased interest rates for the fifth time since July of last year. For the almost 200,000 households with a tracker mortgage this will result in an immediate and significant impact. The high-street banks, namely, Bank of Ireland and AIB, are starting to increase their rates. Vulture funds are increasing rates aggressively, which is leaving some paying interest rates of 7.5%. The net result of this is that tens of thousands of workers and families are paying hundreds of euro extra per month compared with this time last year. For those with even modest mortgages this can equate to thousands of euro extra per year.

This is on top of a cost-of-living crisis that, mortgages aside, is putting real pressure on household finances. The cost of heating is up, the cost of filling the car is up and the cost of everyday shopping is up. The list goes on. For those whose mortgage bills are skyrocketing this is causing massive stress and anxiety. Is cúis mhór struis d’oibrithe agus do theaghlaigh é seo agus caithfimid rud éigin a dhéanamh anois. One person I spoke to this morning told me their annual mortgage payment has now increased by more than €3,000, and that is before the increase due next month.

It is now time to introduce timely, targeted and temporary mortgage interest relief to support workers and families who are put to the pin of their collar. This evening we in Sinn Féin will bring a motion to the Dáil that provides a meaningful solution for households that have had to contend with five interest rate hikes in less than a year. Our proposal to reintroduce mortgage interest relief will be in place for 12 months to absorb a portion of borrowers’ increased interest costs. This relief would amount to 30% of the increased interest costs compared with June of last year, with a maximum benefit of €1,500.

As with every measure to combat the cost-of-living crisis we appreciate the State cannot cover the entire cost but it can, and should, lend a helping hand. It should do this now; this is what is needed. The Government ruled out this approach out when my colleague, an Teachta Doherty, put the proposal to it in December. Since then the situation has worsened, and worsened considerably. We now see tens of thousands of workers and families needing support. Will the Taoiseach support our proposal, and will mortgage interest relief be reintroduced without delay?

The Taoiseach

At the outset I join Deputy McDonald in expressing my sorrow to the people of Türkiye and Syria who have experienced a terrible earthquake, and to express my solidarity with Ireland's Turkish and Syrian communities, some of whom have been directly affected by that. Some are mourning family members and others are worried about family members and friends. As part of an initial response, the Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, has allocated €2 million in emergency assistance to the Red Cross and the UN to help with the effort. We will be in touch with the authorities in Türkiye and in Syria to offer more help if we can. Tharla crith talún millteanach sa tSiria agus sa Tuirc. Fuair deich míle duine bás agus tá go leor daoine gortaithe freisin. Ar son an Rialtais agus ar son muintir na hÉireann, tá brón an domhain orainn. Cabhróidh an Rialtas. Beidh €2 milliún ar fáil mar thacaíocht chun cabhair a thabhairt do mhuintir na Tuirce agus muintir na Siria.

Regarding the Deputy's question, and I want to thank her for raising this important issue, as the House will appreciate the formulation and implementation of monetary policy is an independent matter for the Central Bank. The European Central Bank acts independently of the governments of Europe and governments do not set interest rates. The rises in interest rates are most unwelcome for anyone who is borrowing, particularly home owners and those with tracker mortgages. There are roughly 200,000 people who now, almost every other month, receive a letter in the post telling them that their monthly repayments are going up, and up, and up. While interest rates had been relatively low by historical standards, they have risen a lot in the last year or so and that is something I think all of us will have experienced from our constituency work.

The European Central Bank's governing council has indicated that interest rates will have to rise at a steady pace to reach levels that are sufficient to ensure a return to inflation of around 2%. It is important to acknowledge that the reason the European Central Bank is increasing interest rates is to bring inflation down and to restore price stability and that is something that will benefit everyone. I hope we are approaching the peak of the current interest rate cycle but there is no guarantee that is the case. It is something we will discuss at the European Council tomorrow when I am in Brussels. I do not know if the Governor of the Central Bank is able to attend this meeting but it is certainly something we will discuss at Head of Government and Head of State level because I know it is a matter of concern across the Continent.

The Government is currently reviewing what more we can do to alleviate the rising cost of living of which higher interest rates are part. We will be able to make an announcement around the middle of the month as to what else we can do to help with the cost of living as we go into the spring. The changed interest rate environment will not have a uniform impact on all borrowers and depending on particular situations, such as individual contracts, some borrowers will experience higher increases than others. Thankfully the average Irish interest rate on new mortgages is now below the eurozone average. Even though it had been higher than the eurozone average, we now have the third lowest mortgage rates in the eurozone. In fact, a significant portion of new mortgages, more than 90% of new mortgages, are now fixed rate mortgages and this will go some way to protect borrowers but I know that is of no solace at all to people who hold tracker mortgages.

Mortgage interest relief was phased out between 2009 and 2020 and at its peak the relief cost more than €700 million per year. It is not something we are currently considering but it is not something we would rule out for the future. It is the kind of thing we would do normally in the context of a budget when we have to weigh up many other choices and options to help people. We cannot do them all; we can only ever do a small number. Certainly if Sinn Féin has a proposal and wants to produce a paper on it, we would be happy to consider that, to cost it, to work out the various practicalities and to issue a more formal response.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank the Taoiseach. As he said, there are 186,000 borrowers on tracker mortgages, 129,000 on standard variable rates and more than 113,000 with non-banks and vulture funds. Some borrowers are being affected very dramatically and very immediately with these five hikes so far and with more to come. I do not believe the Government should hesitate on this matter.

The reality, as we know, is that families and workers were struggling anyhow with a cost-of-living crisis. For lots of families, this has now, as they say, put the tin hat on things for them. We need to see Government intervention. I appeal to the Taoiseach not only to support our proposal and our motion this evening, but also to include targeted, time-bound mortgage interest relief as the package of measures that needs to be introduced now.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Do not imagine for a second that we or the families who are struggling can wait for the next budget. That is completely unreal.

The Taoiseach

As I said earlier, these interest rate increases are most unwelcome, particularly for people who have tracker mortgages or are seeing their variable mortgage rates go up and go up dramatically. It would be wrong of me not to acknowledge that the European Central Bank, ECB, is raising interest rates to bring inflation down and to restore price stability. This is why it is being done. Unfortunately, the impact on people who have tracker mortgages is very severe. We are happy to consider any proposals that the Sinn Féin party wants to make. We are happy to examine them and to cost them. We would need to know the cost and that is significant. This does matter, particularly out of the context of the budget cycle. Second, we would have to examine it from a holistic point of view as well. Mortgage rates in Ireland have been at historically-low levels now for a number of years. In some cases, people who were paying very low rates on tracker mortgages are now paying rates that other people have actually been paying for quite some time. We would have to take this into account in any benefit or concession we might give to people.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I also express my thoughts and sympathies to the people of Türkiye and Syria, who have been so badly impacted by Monday's devastating earthquakes. The huge loss of life and utter destruction are truly horrific and heartbreaking. We all share that sentiment.

I raise the issue of the Attorney General's report into the nursing home and disability payments scandal. It is not surprising that the Attorney General has provided such a staunch defence of the legal strategy that was devised and endorsed by his own office and successive Governments over many years. What does come as a surprise, however, is how incredibly blinkered the report is. Throughout it, cost containment is repeatedly conflated with the public interest. In summary, keeping costs down is good and screwing over vulnerable citizens is legally sound. Even in the case of the State effectively illegally stealing disability payments from the most vulnerable citizens, the Attorney General tells us there is "no positive legal obligation" to repay those funds.

As the Taoiseach himself said last week, this is a case that does "not have a [legal] leg to stand on". I have been thinking about that line, "no positive legal obligation", since I read it in the report. I must say that I find that really extraordinary. This is a bald admission that the State had no valid legal authority to withdraw the meagre disability payments from extremely vulnerable citizens who were in residential care and no strict legal duty to repay that money, so, effectively, it did not bother. I wonder how that defence would have gone down if the banks had tried to use it, for example, in the tracker mortgages that we have just heard about. I refer to large institutions, with much deeper pockets than the impoverished consumers it ripped off, effectively saying that if those customers thought they were badly treated they should come and sue them individually. Would the Taoiseach have been happy to see the banks adopt that scorched earth approach rather than, and it must be said belatedly so, identifying the customers who were impacted and paying redress as well as the large fines imposed by the regulator? In this case, we have a State behaving with less of a moral compass than the banks, which I find is really saying something.

What the Attorney General fails to grasp is that only a small minority of people has the capacity even to contemplate suing the State. The State would not lose its house at the end of the legal proceedings but those suing might. Irish people do not expect or want the State to force the most vulnerable citizens to litigate to enforce their legal rights and entitlements. We expect the State to defend and vindicate these rights. At the very least, we expect the State to own up to its wrongs and to undo those wrongs. The legal strategy here is not something that is complicated or knowledgeable in terms of the legal formulation.

It was a very simple approach to keep our heads down and hope we get away with it, having ripped off all those vulnerable people. Is the Taoiseach still happy to stand over that strategy having read the defence in the Attorney General's report?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue again. I emphasise that this is largely an historical issue. It relates to nursing home charges prior to 2005, which is more than 18 years ago and disability payments prior to 2007 or perhaps even prior to 1996 and largely relates to laws from the 1970s. We do not have all the facts yet - nobody does. As I said last week, we will do whatever is legally required, just and in the public interest.

The Attorney General's report is now published. It takes about 20 or 25 minutes to read. I encourage everyone to read it from cover to cover. The House can debate it tomorrow and I know Oireachtas joint committees will also want to discuss this matter. The Ministers for Health and Social Protection will study this matter and revert to Government with a further report in under three months.

There are some important points from the Attorney General's report which are worth putting on the record of the House. The Attorney General points out very clearly that the State's only interest is the public interest. There is no other interest that the State can have regard to than the public interest. That means taking into account the justice of any claims made by people on the State. It means taking into account taxpayers as well as taking into account those who depend on public services today, such as children in our schools, patients in our hospitals and older people who need home care.

The Attorney General points out that anyone taking a case or defending a case has a legal strategy. Either someone taking a case against the State or the State itself has a legal strategy. That is confidential and the fact that is confidential or secret is not sinister in any way. He also points out that anyone taking a case or defending a case has privilege. It would not be fair for anyone to expect one side to waive privilege if the other is not willing to do so.

He also points out that Cabinet documents are confidential and are protected by the Constitution. Even the Government does not have the authority to release them. He also points out that the State is it is not a normal litigant. I have heard people describe the State as being callous or operating like a company in the way it defends cases. That is not the case. All the time the Government takes decisions do things that it is not legally required to do. We have a 100% redress scheme for mica and for people who live in defective apartment blocks. No court has found, nor would any court find, that the State, central government, is 100% responsible for that.

There are other examples such as the symphysiotomy scheme established by the former Minister James Reilly and followed through by me when I was Minister for Health, which provided a redress scheme even though the women concerned, with one extreme exception, lost all their cases in court. We also have other schemes such as the mother and baby homes institutions scheme, for example, where the commission of investigation found many people responsible for what happened there but only the State has stepped forward to fund a redress scheme.

Importantly, he also points out that in settling it case, it is essentially a compromise. Settling a case does not mean acceptance of being in the wrong. It is done by agreement on both sides. Cases cannot be settled unless both sides agree to settlements. Nobody can be forced to a settlement. They are always free to have their case tested in court and these cases may yet be tested in court.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I am well aware that this strategy has been in place for some years. What exactly will the Ministers for Health and Social Protection be looking at for the next three months? Is it the Attorney General's report? Is it the substance of the issue? Are they looking at identifying individuals who may have been impacted? Are they looking at the possibility of repayments? Exactly what is it? I wonder if the same positive legal obligation was considered when the repayment of junior bondholders was being considered because people are validly making a comparison between the two and how the State treated the two.

Other people feel that this delay-and-deny tactic is repeatedly the State's strategy. For example, over a 20-year period 100 personnel in Casement Aerodrome have prematurely died. It is up to the individuals or their families to do anything. This is about how the State treats its citizens. What exactly will the two Ministers be looking at? Is it just the Attorney General's report or is it more?

The Taoiseach

On the issue of junior bondholders, there was a positive legal obligation in many of those cases and a court case was taken which, unfortunately, went against the State in regard to some of those cases.

Leaving that aside, Ministers will look at this in the round. Of course, it will not take them three months to look at the Attorney General's report but they will have to look at many documents going back to the 1970s and 1980s and listen to what the House and what people have to say at the Oireachtas joint committee.

In respect of the disabled persons maintenance allowance, DPMA, payments, it is important to say again that this is an historic issue that relates to the period before 2007, and the partially leaked draft memo did not cover all of the facts. One thing we now know since then is that there were actually three periods involved: a period between 1983 and 1996, when the law was one thing; a period between 1996 and 1999, when the law was another thing; and a period between 1999 and 2007, when the law was different again. That gives an example of how much more complexity and truth there is to this than what has been presented in certain places in recent times.

Deputy Mick Barry

I send my sympathy and solidarity to the peoples of Kurdistan, Türkiye and Syria.

If you go online, open the newspaper or turn on the radio, you cannot do any of those things these days without reading or hearing about the far right. They have come to prominence through their organisational support for anti-refugee protests, but who are they?

The largest such party is the National Party. It is described by the Far Right Observatory as being anti-immigrant, anti-LGBTQ+, and white nationalist. Its leader has attended meetings of European neo-Nazi groups. The observatory lists about a dozen such groups and remarks that many have adopted the great replacement conspiracy theory which argues that white populations are being deliberately displaced from their homelands as part of a plot often blamed on Jews or globalists. Hardcore racists in some of these groups have tried to promote the racist myth of a link between black and brown men and the incidence of gender-based violence. These groups have never displayed any concern for the victims of gender-based violence before and are simply trying to exploit the issue for racist ends.

An opinion piece by Justine McCarthy in The Irish Times last week, entitled “Government needs to acknowledge its role in creating anti-migrant tinderbox”, said the following, "The spurning of economic immigrants arriving on Irish shores while seeking special status for Ireland’s own ... emigrants abroad is the sort of 'do ... [as] I say, not ... [as] I do' double standard that gives succour to xenophobic agitators worming their ideology of hate into the public mindset." I could add that a Government which boasts about deporting nearly 130 people in January and signs this country up to a fortress Europe policy that has resulted in nearly 25,000 men, women and children drowning in the Mediterranean in the past ten years only helps to feed an anti-refugee narrative that the far right taps into.

It is on the issue of housing, however, that this Government has handed the racists their number one gift. The Government’s housing policy has forced record numbers into emergency accommodation, it has sat idly by as 50,000 houses were left vacant for six years or more, and it has allowed speculators to hoard vast tracts of land in the middle of a housing emergency.

It is, of course, in large measure true that refugees and those hardest hit by the housing crisis are not competing for the same spaces. I preface the following comment, however, by saying unambiguously that refugees are welcome here. When many people compare the efforts this Government has made to house Ukrainian refugees, inadequate as those efforts are in many respects, with the lack of effort and urgency in housing the victims of this housing crisis, they feel aggrieved and the door opens up for the racist messaging of the far right, facilitated by this Government. Do you, Deputy Varadkar, accept that your Government’s appalling failures on the housing issue have given a real gift to the far right in this country, and what do you intend to do now to undo the damage that you and your Government have done?

The Taoiseach

I want to be very clear that I do not accept the suggestion of double standards in this regard. I have often had the opportunity to speak to our colleagues in the US, in the US Administration and to Members of Congress.

When I say to them that we wish to have something done to help undocumented Irish people in the US or, indeed, undocumented people from other parts of the world, I precisely point to what we have done, because what we have done as a Government in the past number of years is put in place schemes to allow undocumented migrants to become documented. I refer to those who came here on students visas and those who built lives here and had children here, who became undocumented. All we are ever asking the US administration to do is what we have already done for undocumented people in our country. I totally reject the argument of double standards on that point, because it is misinformed.

I think we will both agree on one point: there is absolutely no excuse for racism of any form. I had the opportunity to meet with the trade union and business leaders this morning under the Labour Employer Economic Forum. One of the leaders of one of the health unions told me there had been protests outside of a hospital in Dublin in recent times, against foreign nationals who are members of staff in that hospital.

While there is no excuse for any form of racism, under any circumstances, it really is a low blow and a new low if healthcare workers, to whom we are so grateful for having come here, are now facing protests and racism from those who do not believe they are welcome here. That is really appalling and the Government will fight against it. It is one of the reasons for our national action plan against racism, which will be published in early March. The plan will be led by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, but will be a whole-of-government effort and will include funding for integration and counteracting racist activities.

Racists and the far right will blame whatever problem the country is facing on migrants. That is the way it works and the way they think. If we have a housing crisis, it will be said the foreigners are taking our homes. If we have an unemployment crisis, it will be said the foreigners are taking our jobs. If we have high levels of crime, they will blame the foreigners for those. If there is violence against women - one of the oldest tropes in the book - they will blame it on migrants and people who have come here from overseas, especially those who are brown or black.

We should not play into those arguments and I think the Deputy is doing that inadvertently. Whatever problem any country faces, they will blame it on the brown man or the brown woman. It is housing now, but it could just as easily be unemployment or crime. The Deputy needs to be careful that he does not inadvertently assist them in the kinds of things he is saying.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

Well said.

Deputy Mick Barry

I can assure the Taoiseach I am very careful in what I say and I am very clear on my message that refugees are welcome here - all refugees - including the 130 people that this State deported in the past month alone. Does the housing crisis add to the crisis of racism in Irish society? Without any question, it does. Of course, they will blame everything. However, the housing crisis is a gift to them, which is why I have no faith in the Government to sort this issue. My faith is in the ordinary people.

We need a mass movement from below in Irish society on this issue. That is why I am very pleased that on Saturday, 18 February, the Le Chéile coalition is calling people out on to the streets. We need masses of ordinary people to rally against racism and fascism. This needs to be a demonstration which is not just anti-racist, but anti-Government as well, and calls for action on housing and the social crisis. I appeal to people to attend in very large numbers.

I note the fact that Fórsa is backing this demonstration and calling on its members to attend. That example needs to be followed. I call on every union in the country to make a similar call and help to make this a massive demonstration on 18 February.

The Taoiseach

None of us in this House wants to see the issue of race or migration become centre stage in our politics, most of all somebody like me, given my colour and my family background and the fact I am biracial. I ask the Deputy to consider his approach to this, and to consider it carefully. I know he is well-intentioned and fervently anti-racist and internationalist. I absolutely accept that. I just ask the Deputy not to play their game inadvertently. Do not make any excuses for them. No matter what problem a country faces, the far right and racists will blame it on migrants. If we did not have a housing crisis and we had an unemployment crisis, they would blame that on the migrants instead.

If we did not have an unemployment crisis, they would blame crime on the migrants. They will always pick on whatever issue is hurting a country at a particular time and try to blame that on the other. I would just ask the Deputy not to make excuses for them or do anything that might inadvertently play into their arguments.

Deputy Mick Barry

I never make excuses for them.

Deputy Stephen Donnelly

The Deputy is making excuses for them.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I want to start by saying that our thoughts are with the people of Türkiye and Syria at this difficult time. I wish to speak, in the same vein as the previous speaker, about the rise in racism in this country. I am sure the Taoiseach agrees the racist sentiment which is growing and has become a lot more mainstream in Ireland in recent months is incredibly concerning and needs to be addressed urgently. The far right is doing a great job of exploiting the public's real and legitimate fears and using them to stoke racist hatred. It is doing this under the guise of Irishness and nationalism but the ideas being spread could not be more anti-Irish.

Emigration has been a massive part of Irish history and identity, and to ignore this aspect of ourselves is to ignore what it means to be Irish. We know that 1 million Irish people emigrated during the Famine and we also know how badly many of our migrant ancestors were treated during this very difficult time in Irish history. Yet, when history repeats itself in other countries, when they are facing war and famine just as we did, we turn our backs on immigrants and, in doing so, we turn our backs on our ancestors as well. This is not only shameful, it is also hypocritical because emigration did not only define Irish identity 200 years ago but has continued to define us ever since. My parents emigrated in the 1960s and I was an economic migrant in the 1980s when I went to England to work, support myself and have a better quality of life. The only difference is that I could legally enter England at that time. This is all immigrants to our country look for: the opportunity to have a better quality of life. We have never been denied this so why should we deny anyone else this opportunity?

A RED C survey five months ago showed that 70% of young people here were considering moving abroad for a better quality of life elsewhere. How can we accept this while at the same time condemning anyone living in Ireland for the exact same reasons? How is it that we have become so hypocritical? The sad reality is that the State plays a role in this, subtly at times but more obviously at other times. The remarks of some Government backbenchers of late have attested to this and some opportunists in opposition have fed into the dangerous narrative that Ireland is full, despite the fact our population has not yet returned to pre-Famine levels and we have more than 150,000 vacant homes in this country.

There is no doubt the Government is using this rise in racism to protect itself. Culture wars are in the Government's interest because they stop communities organising around the things that actually matter to them, like housing, unemployment and the climate crisis. As long as we are pointing the finger at immigrants and asylum seekers, we are not organising around the things that matter and are not pointing the finger at those who are actually at fault. The reality is that if every migrant left Ireland tomorrow, we would still have a housing crisis, a cost-of-living crisis and a crisis in our healthcare system. In fact, the latter would probably be even worse because so many economic migrants work in our healthcare system and keep it functioning.

Will the Government take responsibility for the fact its failed policies have caused the housing and healthcare crises in this country, leading to a rise in the alt right?

The Taoiseach

There are many reasons the country faces a housing crisis and a health crisis. Almost every country in the developed world is facing some form of housing or health crisis. Governments in those countries are doing their best to deal with them, and that is exactly what we are doing here. It is our responsibility to put things right and we will do the best we can to do so. Again, I would ask the Deputy not to inadvertently make excuses for the far right or for racists. No matter what problem a country faces, and every country has some problem, the far right will blame that problem on the other, on the brown man or the brown woman. I ask the Deputy to please not inadvertently make excuses for them by pursuing the line of argument he is pursuing at the moment.

I agree with the Deputy that Irish people understand migration better than most. Most of our families are formed by migration. My father came here from India. My mother is from Ireland but they met when they worked in the NHS in England. My sister lives in London. Every story of every Irish family is one of migration of some form or another. So many of my relatives live in the US. We understand migration better than most. We understand that, by and large, migration has been good for Ireland.

The big tech companies that pay billions of euro in tax and allow our country to function the way it does have a very diverse international workforce. Those companies are not just here because of our favourable tax rates. One of the reasons they come here is that we are open to talent from all over the world. In any Irish hospital, it can be seen how diverse the workforce is there. Our public services simply would not function were it not for the fact that people come from other parts of the world to work here. We know how much migration has enriched our culture and made Ireland a much more interesting place in recent decades. That is why we should always emphasise the fact that countries that are open to migration tend to be countries that are wealthier, more successful and more stable, and that is why we should continue to be open to migration.

There is a difference, though, between legal migration and illegal migration, and we should not be afraid to say that. There are many legal pathways to migration into Ireland. Last year, 30,000 Irish citizens returned home. Any Irish citizen can, of course, come and live in Ireland. UK citizens can do the same. Every year, tens of thousands, if not more, EU citizens come to live in Ireland. They can live anywhere in the European Union but they choose to come and live in Ireland, largely because of the economic opportunities we have to offer. Last year alone, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment issued 40,000 work permits, the highest number ever, to people from outside the European Union who are coming here to take up employment or to study. We should encourage people to avail of the many legal pathways to come into the county, including those I have outlined.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

The Taoiseach did well for the first half of his reply. I was agreeing with much of what he was saying, but then he went and pulled out these tropes again that have been fired out everywhere, even by his backbenchers, regarding illegal immigrants coming to Ireland. The reality is, and the Taoiseach should check that with the Department of Justice, which is not the most friendly towards immigrants, that anybody who comes here and claims asylum is a legal immigrant. Those people are complying with the law. They come here and they claim asylum. That is legal.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

The Taoiseach should say and acknowledge that because it is vital. The right is using this trope throughout the country to attack certain people and put an image out there that those people are illegal immigrants who are coming here in hordes and taking over our country.

Deputy Mick Barry

Well said.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

The Taoiseach should say it straight that that is what it is. Those people are legally here to claim asylum. They work and live here under our system. We are responsible for their safety when they are here. If the Taoiseach could acknowledge that, it would do an awful lot in terms of putting it right. He should say it constantly because it needs to be said. His backbenchers need to say it as well. They have been saying the wrong thing in public and in the media and that is wrong and should not be continued. Everyone has a role to play in making this right.

The Taoiseach

I am happy to say that here. People who come here from Ukraine are beneficiaries of temporary protection. They have legal status and a right to be here.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

And asylum seekers.

The Taoiseach

People who come here who claim international protection have legal status. They are here legally-----

Deputy Thomas Pringle

Why did the Taoiseach lie earlier on, then?

The Taoiseach

I did not say that, Deputy. I ask the Deputy to withdraw that.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I will withdraw it. Why did the Taoiseach say the exact opposite earlier on?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has withdrawn the remark, Taoiseach.

Deputy Martin Heydon

The Deputy should let the Taoiseach answer.

The Taoiseach

I did not, Deputy. People who come to Ireland and apply for international protection have legal status. They have legal status until such time as their application is determined. If it is determined that they have protection, then it is legal for them to stay here. If it is determined that they do not get that protection, it is only at that point that they become illegal.

Deputy Martin Kenny

They are entitled to appeal.