Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Health Services

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the Chamber to deal with this matter. My request is that we establish a commissioner for ageing and older people. The role would very much be about safeguarding the interests of older people, advising the Government on matters relating to older people, promoting awareness, encouraging best practice, reviewing the adequacy of existing laws, eliminating discrimination, and promoting participation by older people in a way that we are not currently doing enough in this area.

When we look at the way the population is changing, there are currently 768,900 people over 65 years of age. That is a substantial increase from where it was. The 2011 census indicated that, at that time, 11.7% of the population was over 65. In the more recent census, the figure was 15.1%. By 2030, more than 1 million people here will be over 65 years of age. As a result, we need to make sure we made adequate provision to protect them. This has very much come home in the past few weeks as regards the way, going back over the past 25 years, people in nursing homes were dealt with and why it ended up in challenges through the courts in order to establish particular rights. A commissioner for older people would be extremely helpful in dealing with many of the challenges now facing us. Such a position has been established in Wales since 2006 and in Northern Ireland since 2011.

We have made changes in other areas. We have an Ombudsman for Children, for example, but we have not put the same level of protection in place for older people. A number of reports have been produced over the past number of years internationally and in Ireland. We now need to progress this matter, especially in the context of the changes that have taken place.

I previously raised the issue of not having a legislative process in place in the context of home care. I published a Private Members' Bill in respect of this matter more than 18 months ago. We also need to progress that. A commissioner for ageing and older people would be extremely helpful in promoting and protecting that demographic as the overall population of this country changes. It is said that by 2035 there will be more than 1.1 million people over the age of 65. The number of people over 85 is also increasing dramatically. Now more than ever, there is a need to establish the role to which I refer.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I beg the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's indulgence in the context of allowing me to welcome a group of ladies to the House. They are members of the Fianna Fáil women's network, which includes many aspiring politicians. I hope the late hour we are sitting will not put them off deciding to venture into politics. They are more than welcome to Leinster House.

I very much thank the Deputy for raising this important matter and for giving me the opportunity to respond to the points raised. There is very little he said that I do not agree with. We are on the same page as regards this matter.

By 2041, one in five people in Ireland will be over 65 years of age. We have an ageing population, which is something to celebrate. We are all living longer, healthier lives. Older people have so much to contribute. We have the best life expectancy in Europe, at 82 years, notwithstanding the difficulties we have at times in accessing certain health supports. I always view older people as an opportunity; they are never a liability.

The Government is firmly committed to supporting healthy and positive ageing as well as ensuring measures will be put in place to meet both the challenges and opportunities associated with this shifting demographic. The programme for Government commits to the establishment of a commission on care that will "assess how we care for older people and examine alternatives to meet the diverse needs of our older citizens".

Last year preliminary desk research was undertaken within the Department of Health in preparation for the establishment of a commission on care. This year the commission will be further advanced as a priority. While the scope and the terms of reference of the commission have yet to be determined, it is envisaged that consideration of matters such as whether there is a need to establish an independent commissioner for ageing and older persons will fall within the commission's remit. Alternatively, I want serious consideration given to a possible ombudsman for older people, as Deputy Burke suggested. He also mentioned safeguarding, best practice, elimination of discrimination - all things on which we all agree.

The commission on care will be built on strong foundations. Over the past two decades there has been significant investment in establishing robust policies and strategies on positive ageing across Departments. We know that positive ageing requires a whole-of-government approach to address the range of social, economic and environmental factors that affect the lives of ageing citizens.

My Department has taken steps to ensure policies and strategies translate into meaningful outcomes, and strong partnerships have been forged with local authorities and organisation such as Age Friendly Ireland. Those partnerships have facilitated regular engagement with our diverse older citizens which allows us to hear their lived experience. Over the past ten years, 20,000 older people have participated in consultations throughout Ireland through town hall meetings, older persons' councils, round-table discussions, focus groups and workshops. I commend specifically the older persons' councils, which do fabulous work. This engagement has been invaluable as it has ensured awareness of the diverse and evolving needs of older people in communities throughout Ireland, whether urban or rural, younger or older, diverse ethnic groups, members of the Traveller community, older people with disabilities, LGBTI+ older people or other minorities.

I am fully committed to ensuring there is adequate and appropriate policy, legislation and services in place to support the diverse older cohort in Ireland. Being two and a half years into my role as Minister of State with responsibility for older people, Deputy Burke might ask why I have not worked on this earlier. As he himself will know, however, through all the various conversations we have had and the challenges we have had with older people, the nursing home sector and daycare centres, that is where the focus is. My focus, however, has very much turned to this now and this particular cohort, and I look forward to progressing this as a matter of priority.

Deputy Colm Burke

If the office were established, my understanding is that the cost would be around €2 million. That €2 million would be a very good investment in dealing with this area.

I go back to 2004, when I wore a different cap and I acted in a legal capacity for many elderly people in nursing homes. As a result of that challenge in 2004, we brought about a sea change over the following three or four years in how we dealt with people who were having to go into nursing homes for care. We set up the fair deal scheme, which is a very good scheme. Likewise, we need now to make sure we have a very comprehensive package in respect of home care.

The other challenge we have is that as people get older there are an increasing number with dementia. I think there are more than 64,000 people with dementia in Ireland now. The figure may be higher, but that is the figure I have established. They are people who need particular protection and support.

There are two other sea changes in Ireland. One is the fact that families are smaller now and, therefore, there is not the same level of support that was there, say, 25 or 30 years ago. The second, which will be a challenge not so much in the next ten years but certainly in the next 20 years is people who were not born here in Ireland but who have moved here and do not have any immediate family support. As they get older they will need protection and the necessary level of support needs to be put in place. Therefore, we should have a commissioner identifying all these issues and working with a Minister, such as the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to make sure the challenges people who are retired face can be adequately looked after. It would be a huge achievement for the Minister of State to deliver on this while she holds her role. I thank her again for all the work she is doing in this area.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank the Deputy for the support he has always afforded to me. We all have a common desire to have the best possible policies and services in place for older people. That process starts by ensuring we identify the growing and diverse needs of older people. I want to see older people being able to age in place and being able to live in their own communities for as long as possible.

We do that by supplying three different types of supports. The first support is daycare services and dementia daycare services. The second is home care. My budget this year to provide home care supports for older people is €700 million. The third is meals on wheels. I actually had a meeting about that today and I am delighted to say that I secured an extra €1.75 million in this year's budget to support the numerous people who deliver meals on wheels. Meals on wheels is so much more than a nutritious meal being dropped at your door. It is that knock on the door and that social contact you might not normally have, especially for people living in rural isolation. Some 400,000 meals are delivered monthly.

Also, 56,000 people receive home care every single day, notwithstanding the fact we have a waiting list of 3,200 people. That is funded, but we cannot put all the staff in place. Thankfully, however, since 1 January of this year, 1,000 permits for those from outside the EU have been put in place. I am very hopeful that by February or March we might see a result on that. There are currently 2,640 permits being used for healthcare workers who came in from other countries to work in nursing homes, so I am positive from that perspective that it will yield a return.

I hope to have the commission on care established by the middle of this year. I will engage with all the stakeholders and, of course, the Deputy himself.

Antisocial Behaviour

Deputy Gary Gannon

I am here to discuss crime and antisocial behaviour in Cabra. I want to say before I do that I do not believe Cabra is by any means different from any other part of the city or the country. Cabra is a very well-settled place full of people who love living there. Why would they not? There are issues in Cabra, as there are throughout other parts of Dublin, with an element of antisocial behaviour and some degree of crime. The issues in Cabra are by no means out of control, lawless or any different from what has happened over the past half a decade, ten years or beyond.

What is different is that people in Cabra believe that when something does happen - some degree of antisocial behaviour or, as we have seen recently, incidents where motorbikes have been burnt or where there have been large congregations of people engaged in fights and that sort of carry-on - there have not been any gardaí around. That is probably indicative of a trend emerging throughout the country whereby we simply do not see gardaí on the streets. When a call is made for whatever reason, be it a burglary, a domestic violence report or some form of antisocial behaviour happening outside a person's home, the Garda is called and gardaí may arrive the next day or the day after that. It has led to a sense that, to some degree, the gardaí are no longer themselves capable of providing an adequate standard of policing.

I raised this issue specifically in the context of Cabra because I have had a couple of meetings with residents there in recent weeks and months, but I could have raised it about anywhere. I simply want to ask Deputy Harris, in his capacity as Minister for Justice, what is the plan. We read reports yesterday of dwindling Garda numbers. One of the figures given was that, in November 2022, we had 13,907 gardaí, down from 14,750 in March 2020. I assure the Minister that I do not believe there is solely a policing solution to antisocial behaviour - far from it.

I believe in a multifaceted approach that involves: encouraging youth clubs; engaging with sport; positive role models; and engagements through our education systems. However, at a certain point we also just want to see some gardaí on the street. I am coming to the Minister on behalf of the people of Cabra - and also to talk about Dublin Central more broadly - and to ask what the plan is.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter and I take the point he makes about multifaceted approaches and solutions. I know he believes in community safety partnerships, diversion programmes and all of that, as do I, but we will take that as read and for another day because he is raising a specific issue, that is, the policing and criminal justice response to issues where antisocial behaviour and crime can emerge in a community. In this case he is highlighting issues in the Cabra part of his constituency and I thank him for doing so.

I am acutely aware of the damaging and potentially devastating impact that assaults and public order incidents can have on local communities. This criminal behaviour threatens both individual and community safety and I am unequivocal in my condemnation of it. Everybody has a right to feel safe and to be safe in their homes and communities. The Deputy will appreciate that the policing response to all incidents involving criminality, including the deployment of Garda resources at local level, are operational matters for An Garda Síochána in the first instance. I assure him that his comments on some of the issues he mentioned are sent to the Garda Commissioner and that he is aware of the perspective he is delivering on behalf of his constituents in Cabra.

I am advised that Garda management carefully monitors the incidence of all crime and that Garda resources are deployed in response to changing crime trends. This may include directing resources at areas that can be designated as hotspots from to time to time for public order or other criminal behaviour. I have received an update from An Garda Síochána on the incident which took place in Ashtown in Dublin in the last weekend in January. I understand a number of migrant men temporarily camping in the area were threatened by another group of men. This incident is the focus of a live and open Garda investigation and therefore I cannot comment further on it.

However, I want to assure communities that there is a range of legislation under which threats and intimidation can be prosecuted, including: the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Persons Act 1997; public order legislation; and incitement to hatred legislation. I should add the new hate crime Bill, which I hope we can receive support for across the House and which we hope to enact by the summer. This will further strengthen the existing legislation. More broadly, the Government is rolling out a number of policy and legislative initiates which will reduce the level of public order incidents in local communities, including introducing legislation to provide for body worn cameras for gardaí and community CCTV schemes. I intend to enact the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022 swiftly, to allow the Garda to commence a body worn camera pilot this year.

I intend to roll out the community safety innovation fund to drive the development of community safety projects at a local level. I intend to examine the use of antisocial behaviour orders to ensure they are as effective as possible, and considering the number of strikes attached to each order. I intend to introduce legislation to criminalise the grooming of children. I published legislation on this recently and it is so important that we never give the view that crime pays or can be a glamorous life when we know the heartache and pain it can bring and how it can ravage a community. I also intend to provide the Garda with new powers to seize and stop the illegal use of scrambler bikes.

At the end of 2017, I understand that the Dublin metropolitan region west division had a total of 672 gardaí, supported by 52 Garda staff. These figures rose to 721 gardaí, supported by 71 Garda staff, at the end of 2022. In Cabra, the number of Garda members has risen from 59 gardaí at the end of 2017 to 62 gardaí at the end of last year. I can confirm to the Deputy that Garda authorities have advised me that additional gardaí have been reallocated to Cabra station, in addition to a new Garda vehicle to provide further support to the local community in Cabra. I am assured by An Garda Síochána that these allocations have provided an ability to respond to calls and provide proactive and high-visibility patrols in a more timely manner. I am also advised by the Garda that there has been an increase in proactive patrols in the Cabra area and that this has resulted in a reduction in public order issues. More gardaí have been reallocated to Cabra, there is a new Garda vehicle there and more proactive patrols are what the Garda is detailing to me.

More broadly, I want to agree with the Deputy about the need to get Garda numbers up. We have funded An Garda Síochána to recruit 1,000 new Garda members into the Garda College in Templemore this year. That will be key to ensuring that Garda numbers begin to rise towards the end of this year and that we get to 15,000 or more gardaí by the end of 2024.

Deputy Gary Gannon

Cabra is situated in such a place that when gardaí need to be reallocated to other parts of the north side, it usually has to take the brunt of that. With the recent spate of protests, which I am reluctant to call them, or the engagements in which the Garda was involved, it was Cabra Garda station that lost some of its gardaí to go to those scenarios. Cabra is also situated beside the Phoenix Park so in terms of going to police Áras an Uachtaráin, Cabra loses its gardaí. That is also a situation that happens with the gardaí outside Leinster House; Pearse Street gardaí are reallocated up here. That is something we need to consider where there are buildings that need to be policed by gardaí on a 24-hour basis. It should not be local and community Garda stations that lose their gardaí in those instances.

I take the Minister's point on the action that has been taken with a new Garda patrol car. That will make a difference but it is there because there has been a spate of increased antisocial behaviour there. I also want to make the following request. A new Garda station will be opened on O'Connell Street and I implore the Minister to ensure that as that Garda station is staffed the gardaí are not taken from surrounding stations such as Store Street and Cabra. That has a genuine knock-on effect and there is a belief in some of these communities that when issues happen, such as the new surveillance on O'Connell Street following the "Prime Time" documentary, issues simply get pushed up and away. We need more community policing on the streets. When they are there our gardaí do a good and effective job and we need more of them. The community has a right to want to feel safe and protected at a time when it needs that protection. We need to do whatever we can to improve pay and conditions to ensure we can recruit gardaí and people into our Garda force because we need more of them.

Deputy Simon Harris

I thank Deputy Gannon for highlighting what is an important issue to his community. More broadly, the issue of antisocial behaviour and feeling safe in one's community is one that applies to his constituency and to all our communities across the country. On Cabra specifically, I am pleased to confirm to the House that the Garda has informed me that additional gardaí have been allocated to Cabra recently and that it has the new Garda vehicle attached to Cabra Garda station. The Garda is telling me, and I appreciate that the Deputy has a much closer perspective on this than me, that the more proactive patrols are achieving an improvement in terms of a reduction in the number of public order offences and incidents, and I know it monitors that closely.

The Deputy is not wrong that it is about growing Garda numbers in general. I never like to pit specialist units against community gardaí because we need both, and the Deputy has not done that either. Specialist units in this capital city and in all of our communities, including emergency response units, drugs units and organised crime units, are playing a crucial role. We also want to see a growth in community policing. We want to see gardaí back out on the beat, walking the streets and knowing their communities. Under the new community policing model it is the intention for every community to know the name of their community garda and to have a contact number and email address for them. To do that we have to grow the Garda numbers. That is why we have given the Garda Commissioner and the Garda money to recruit 1,000 new gardaí this year. Around 350 gardaí retire from the force every year, on average, so that will enable us to see growth in overall Garda numbers during the course of the year. The Commissioner has said clearly that he wants 15,000 and more gardaí. That is where we want to get to.

We can get there and the Garda College is back open. I am not blaming Covid for everything because sometimes that can be too convenient an excuse but at the same time Covid did close the Garda College on a number of occasions and that definitely had an impact. The college is back open and a new class is due to go in during the coming weeks. Another class will go in roughly every ten weeks for the rest of this year. I hope these additions to Cabra will make a difference, I will feed back the Deputy's comments to the Garda authorities and I am happy to keep in touch on it.

Fishing Industry

Deputy Mick Barry

On the back of years of campaigning, principally by the International Transport Workers Federation, ITF, the situation for non-European migrant fishers working on Irish-flagged fishing vessels has improved in recent months. A highly restrictive atypical work permit scheme has been abolished and all documented fishers and a significant cohort of undocumented fishers have obtained stamp 4 visas, giving them full labour market access. Those who choose to remain in fishing ought now to be able to earn a share of the catch on an equal footing with their Irish and European crewmates. Future non-European crew, if required, will have to be recruited on one of the more advantageous Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment work permits, guaranteeing a minimum of €30,000 per year, almost 50% more than the atypical scheme minimum.

This is all welcome but work remains to be done. Most significantly, the agreement the State made with the ITF almost four years ago to, among other matters, which gives the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, jurisdiction to hear complaints from fishers on breaches of working time regulations, has still not been honoured, leaving fishers as the only private sector workers in the State who do not have an effective remedy for experiencing excessive hours of work or insufficient rest and breaks.

That needs to be sorted out.

This Topical Issue debate concerns the plight of non-European fishers working in Irish territorial waters on foreign-flagged fishing vessels. Two Spanish-owned German-flagged vessels have been detained by the Naval Service in recent weeks - the Pesorsa Dos and the Ortega Tres. The skippers of both vessels have been hauled before Bandon District Court on dozens of fisheries and maritime offences. However, largely forgotten in all of this are the mainly Indonesian crew on both vessels.

The International Transport Workers' Federation, ITF, have given me sight of a contract of one of the crew of the Ortega Tres. These contracts promised them a mere €800 per month and illegally claim that there is no limit on the hours the fishers must work for that €800.

It remains to be seen if these are the same contracts that the German authorities, the flag state, have on file for these crew. I say this because the ITF has shown me a sample of a double contract that Indonesian fishers on the other vessel, the Pesorsa Dos, are on. In these instances, the contracts filed with the German authorities portray the crew on superior conditions that meet German regulations than what is in the parallel contract issued to the crews themselves. In the sample I have, the official contract has the fisher on €2,000 per month but the version given the fisher promises €1,000, although in his case he was not even paid that having been voluntarily repatriated from the State last week without having received a cent since boarding that vessel in late December. Indeed, none of the remaining Indonesian crew on the Pesorsa Dos have received any wages since December - not one cent.

The authorities in the State are aware of the situation. However, Ireland's failure to ratify the 2007 Work in Fishing Convention, International Labour Organization, ILO, 188, leaves the likes of the Marine Survey Office and the Workplace Relations Commission powerless to follow this up.

The review of the now-abolished atypical work permit scheme published last October included a promise that Ireland would ratify ILO 188. The question for the Minister is, when?

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I thank the Deputy for raising this Topical Issue. I have been asked to point out that the matter, although important in the area of fisheries, is not the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is lead on the International Labour Organization, ILO, and the Department of Transport would be central on the specific issue of ratification of that particular ILO convention given that Department's lead responsibility for maritime safety, manning and working hours on board fishing vessels.

The Work in Fishing Convention, C. 188, was adopted at the 96th session of the International Labour Conference in June of 2007 and entered into force in November of 2017. It aims to ensure decent conditions of work in fishing with regard to minimum requirements for work on board, conditions of service, food and accommodation, occupational safety and health protection, medical care and social security.

Ireland supports the convention and must bring it into force via national primary legislation. A provision will be included in the merchant shipping (international conventions) Bill, which will allow the Minister for Transport to make regulations to fulfil the State's commitments under the Work in Fishing Convention. The general scheme for this Bill is currently in preparation.

In the meantime, Council Directive EU 2017/159 was published in the Official Journal of the European Union. This directive contains a social partnership agreement, completed on 21 May 2012, which aims to implement the Work in Fishing Convention. This directive was transposed into Irish law in full in 2020 by way of several regulations. The regulations covered issues such as manning, hours of work and rest, minimum age, medical examinations, medical care on board, fishing vessel owner liability and repatriation, crew lists, fisherman work agreements, food and accommodation. It applies to all fishermen working under contract abroad an Irish-registered fishing vessel and share-fishermen when working along with fishermen under contract.

The Department of Transport will continue to progress work on the merchant shipping (international conventions) Bill in order to formally ratify the provisions of the ILO Work in Fishing Convention in the near future.

I again thank the Deputy for raising this issue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there a copy of that, Minister?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

No.

Deputy Mick Barry

Is it not an embarrassment to the State that the ITF's fisheries representative in Ireland has to go to his colleagues in Spain, which has ratified ILO 188, and the flag state, Germany, to work on having questions of unpaid wages and illicit double contracts acted upon? One cannot help but draw the conclusion that there is a greater premium being placed on fish stocks in our territorial waters than the rights and welfare of human beings.

Let us be clear, this is an incursion of slave-wage conditions onto the shores of the State. Even generously assuming that the Indonesian crew of the Ortega Tres works, say, a 40-hour week, that would make their hourly rate €4.40, only one third of the statutory minimum wage. By comparison, future non-Europeans recruited to work on Irish-flagged vessels will have to be on a minimum rate of almost €15 an hour before they get their stamp 4 and graduate to share the catch. We hear a lot about the Common Fisheries Policy, but it is clear we are some way off from a common floor of decent pay and conditions within Europe when it comes to pay and conditions for migrant crew.

If any of the dozens of charges of fisheries and maritime offences against the skippers of those two Spanish-owned German-flagged vessels is upheld in the courts, it follows that the Indonesian crew were coerced into illegal acts by their employer. Coercion into law-breaking activity is an internationally-recognised indicator of forced labour and human trafficking. While such an eventuality will be taken up with the German and Spanish authorities by the ITF, the fact that such practices can happen in Irish waters and, from the point of view of the crew, go unchallenged by the Irish authorities is deplorable. It underlines why the ratification of ILO 188 needs to be put on the agenda of the Oireachtas forthwith.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank the Deputy. He made a clear distinction between the plight of fishermen who are working on Irish-registered ships and those who are working on foreign-registered ships within Irish waters. While progress has been made on those on Irish-registered ships, and the Deputy has acknowledged that, we have not yet implemented the Work in Fishing Convention but it is the intention of the State to bring this into force through primary legislation - the merchant shipping (international conventions) Bill.

I acknowledge that workers who are on ships are uniquely vulnerable. They are often recruited from places such as the Philippines or from eastern Europe, from Ukraine, etc., and they are not in a position to stand up for their rights. They are literally marooned in a situation where they need support and representation and that is why a convention such as this is so important.

The Deputy is doing the right thing by raising this issue. I will remind the two Ministers involved, the lead Minister, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and the Minister for Transport, of the Deputy's desire and their obligation to bring this into law.

Schools Building Projects

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Minister of State dealing with the fourth Topical Issue matter as well?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Is it Deputy Stanley's matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Yes.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I am.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Before the Leas-Cheann Comhairle starts the clock, I would like to say that I would have hoped that one of the Ministers of Education would be here. Romance is in the air tonight and there is important business on outside the Dáil in terms of people's romantic lives, but there are three Ministers and I had been hoping one of them would be here. I trust that the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, will take back the information and see that it is followed up on.

The issue I want to raise is St. Fergal's College in Rathdowney, founded in 1937. It still does not have a physical education, PE, hall 86 years later. It is the only secondary school in the county that does not have a PE hall. In 2010, the then Department of Education and Skills approved a plan along with extra classrooms. The classrooms were provided. They were constructed but there is no hall, because the money has not been provided since.

Planning permission is in place - this is important - and the board of management and Laois County Council have ensured that that is rolled over and has been kept up to date. This is a shovel-ready project.

This school is located in a rural area in Rathdowney. What is important about it is it serves a large catchment area of Durrow, Cullahill, Arles, Borris-in-Ossory, Knockaroo, back around to Cuddagh and taking in Ballacolla. However, that catchment areas does not have a sports hall in the community either.

These are the facts we are dealing with. The school population is increasing and it has excellent staff. I have visited the school many times and it has really committed staff who are doing their best to provide first-class education but they need to have the facilities. There are 330 pupils in the school now and this number is expected to increase by 16% in September, based on 2021 figures. There are Ukrainians to be housed in the town, for whom modular homes are being built. They will need school places and hopefully they will be accommodated. I know the people of Rathdowney will do their best in that regard.

The school currently has a small general-purpose hall that I have visited, which serves as a canteen, a meeting room, an assembly room, a storage room and a multitude of other uses. It is totally unsuitable and too small for any meaningful PE classes. There is also another issue. Leaving certificate PE, which is now an examination subject, cannot be provided at the school. The school cannot provide it because it does not have a PE hall. There is also the issue of disabled persons' access and use. In a school of this size, there will be pupils with disabilities and we must treat those children equally. That is what this is about. St. Fergal's College has a strong tradition in sport, particularly in hurling, and people in the midlands will know that south Laois is the strong end of the county where the hurling is very good. St. Fergal's College has played a key role in camogie, Gaelic football, soccer and athletics over the years. We know the benefits of physical activity. We know how important this is in terms of countering obesity and for the promotion of good health in children. I have raised this matter many times with the Department and the Minister for Health. It is a question of funding. We have been told we must wait for phase 2 of the national development plan, which is due to kick off later this year. Will the Minister of State ensure the case is brought back to and pushed forward by the Government in order that this school is treated properly and this project gets under way?

Deputy Ossian Smyth

The Minister for Education has asked me to answer this question on her behalf. This provides me with the opportunity to clarify the position in relation to the Department of Education's plans for upgrading school buildings, including St. Fergal's College, Rathdowney, County Laois. The Deputy may be aware that St. Fergal's College is a multidenominational, co-educational, post-primary school in the town of Rathdowney. In 2022, the school had an enrolment of 334 pupils. I am pleased to inform the Deputy that the Department approved capital funding for the college in 2022 for the provision of four general classrooms, including two general classroom prefab replacements, as well as classrooms for students with special educational needs. It is proposed this accommodation would be procured under the Department's new sustainable accommodation framework. The sustainable accommodation procured under the framework is timber frame with low-carbon and high-energy performance, in support of the Department's climate action goals. The project was devolved to the school's patron, Laois and Offaly Education and Training Board, for delivery, with the initial approval letter issued to the education and training board on 9 September 2022. The Department's planning and building unit also received, as part of the additional school accommodation, ASA, application in November 2021 a request from St. Fergal's College seeking capital funding for the provision of a PE hall. The school authority was informed in writing at that time that funding for PE halls is not included under the parameters of ASA scheme.

My Department has a strong track record of delivery of school building projects and this was achieved again in 2022, despite the wider construction sector environment of high inflation, labour shortages, and supply-chain issues. Approximately 180 school building projects were delivered during 2022 and a further 273 school building projects continued in construction at start of 2023, most of which will be completed in 2023. I appreciate the strong support provided by the Government for our education budget. As part of the supplementary budget, €300 million in additional capital funding was provided in 2022. This helped to alleviate capital funding pressures that arose in 2022, which was reflected of the strong delivery by the Department of school building projects, particularly to support mainstream provision and special educational needs provision. The Department's overall capital outturn for 2022 was €1.12 billion.

The Department's planning and building unit is currently assessing its work programme and priorities for 2023 in the context of its available funding. The Department's published national development plan allocations for 2023 is €860 million. High construction inflation remains a continuing feature of the construction sector for 2023. As part of its planning ahead for 2023, the Department is engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in respect of capital funding pressures in order to continue to be able to adequately support the operation of the school system with the roll-out of school building projects to construction in 2023. Key priorities for the Department's work programme include continuing strong delivery to support the operation of the school system, with particular regard to planning ahead for the 2023-2024 school year and beyond, as well as to supporting special needs provision. Investment and expenditure on PE halls is an element of this programme expenditure an investment in school building programme.

Under the national development plan, there will be a strengthened focus on refurbishment of existing school stock. This will have different strands and will include a PE build and modernisation programme, which will enable students in post-primary schools to have access to appropriate facilities to support PE provision, particularly in context of the roll-out of PE as leading certificate subject. Enhanced and modernised PE facilities will also provide important amenities for local communities.

I again thank the Deputy for giving me an opportunity to outline the Department's position. The Department has approved additional accommodation for St. Fergal's College using the new sustainable modular accommodation framework. This accommodation will provide additional general-purpose classrooms, as well as including provisions of students with special needs. As the Deputy will appreciate, the provision of school places, including for children with special needs, is a priority for the Department. Funding for PE halls is outside the scope of the Department's additional school accommodation scheme, but it will be considered as part of a future modernisation programme under the national development plan. The Department will continue to work to delivered building projects in support of the operation of the school system, with particular regard to planning ahead for the 2023-2024 school year and beyond, in addition to supporting special needs provision.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. This is about playing catch-up. This is about the children of Rathdowney and south Laois having the same opportunities and facilities as everyone else. As I said, the school opened in 1937. My father went there in the 1940s and those classrooms are still there. I welcome the fact the new classrooms were approved. This is welcomed by all and sundry, including the staff, board of management and pupils and I certainly welcome it as a local representative.

Any significant school needs to have functioning PE hall. It needs to have it for all the reasons I have outlined. The Minister of State said the Department is currently assessing capital projects and funding of future programmes in the 2023-2024 year. I want this school to feature highly. In terms of the demographics of the area and the progress the school has made, it needs this facility. I want this included in the programme and I want the Minister of State to bring back this very strong message to the Minister, Deputy Foley. This is really important. We cannot have south Laois left behind the rest of the country. The children of south Laois cannot be left behind. An 86-year wait is a long time. I want to see this project brought on. There has been substantial investment in schools, all of which is welcomed. I have been at many of the openings of those schools around my constituency of Laois-Offaly. In this Dáil term, I want to see this project nailed down once and for all in order that we can get it up and running. It is shovel-ready and that it is good to go. Let us get on with it.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I hear the Deputy loud and clear. He wants St. Fergal's College, Rathdowney, to be provided with a PE hall in the interests of equity and he wants me to take that message back to the Minister, Deputy Foley. I will do that.

The current situation is that the existing additional schools accommodation scheme does not include provision for PE halls and yet the national development plan is a more than €100 billion capital scheme. In future iterations of the plan, or future schemes developed for the Department of Education, consideration will be made to include PE halls. Not just that, that they will include a PE hall build and modernisation programme to ensure students in all post-primary schools will have access to appropriate facilities in order to support PE provision, particularly in the context of the roll-out of PE as a leaving certificate subject.

I take the Deputy’s points that if we are going to have PE as a leaving certificate subject, the question arises as to how it can be done without having a PE hall in place; that there is a need for a PE halls in a country that is not always dry in order that students can participate in sports indoors; that having healthy students is part of the preventive health and public health programme for the country; and that it saves us money in the long term if students are getting their physical education in school. This applies to everybody, not just those students who are sporty and able to catch a ball. Plenty of sports can be done indoors – the kind of ones that I did – and are good for general health rather than those that are overly competitive or which can be done outside in a field. I see where the Deputy is coming from and I will take his comments back to the Minister and tell her what he has said today.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.31 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 15 Feabhra 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.31 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 February 2023.