Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 5

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Tá oibrithe agus teaghlaigh ar fud an Stáit seo ag streachailt leis an ngéarchéim costas maireachtála agus tá daoine ag fulaingt. Feicimid ón staidéar a rinne Barnardos go n-úsáideann duine as gach deich dtuismitheoir banc bia chun bia a chur ar an bhord dá chuid páistí. Aréir, vótáil an Rialtas in éadan moltaí chun cuidiú leis na daoine seo, is iad sin, na daoine atá thíos léi agus leo siúd a bhfuil na costais morgáiste ag dul in airde acu. Caithfidh an Rialtas gníomhú.

Before the current cost-of-living crisis, the level of child poverty in this State was utterly unacceptable. This week, the Taoiseach chose to dismiss a Barnardos survey on the worsening situation for workers and families. Yesterday, representatives of Barnardos were in Leinster House, where they set out for Members the stark reality of what is happening for families at the coalface. The Barnardos report states very clearly that one in ten parents surveyed had to use food banks during the past year, which is double the number in the previous year. It goes on to say that one in five parents did not have enough food to feed their children at some point in the past 12 months and that 29% of children have skipped meals in order that their children could have enough to eat. Those damning statistics are a shame on Government policy. Many of these parents are in work, earning their poverty, as it is now being called.

The Taoiseach should reflect for just a minute on that stark reality and on what has happened on the Government's watch. It is unforgivable that families who are already saddled with out-of-control rents, soaring energy bills, high travel costs and the spectre of rising interest rates are going hungry because they cannot afford to fill the shopping trolley at the end of the week. That is the reality of the cost-of-living crisis. We all know that the Government cannot do everything, but it can do much more. That is why we need a comprehensive support package now.

Last night, the Government voted against two crucial proposals. It voted against targeted temporary mortgage interest relief for those who are seeing their mortgage costs rise by thousands of euro. Many who had their mortgages sold off to vulture funds are now seeing interest being charged at a rate of 7.5%, with further hikes on the way next month. The Government voted against this sensible proposal and it also voted against a spring bonus for those in receipt of social welfare payments such as disability or carer's allowance and for pensioners. Such a payment would support the most vulnerable - pensioners, carers, lone parents and citizens with a disability - who have been hardest hit by the cost-of-living crisis. This proposal would go a long way to supporting those who are suffering at the sharp edge of the cost-of-living crisis. Any Government that is serious about tackling financial hardship and poverty would have supported and implemented this proposal. This Government chose not to do so. Both proposals are urgently needed.

We know that certain measures are set to expire at the end of this month. The rate of VAT on electricity and gas is set to rise, despite households facing sky-high energy bills. Taxes on petrol and diesel are set to rise. Fuel prices are increasing at the pumps. We must not forget that the Government has taken no action whatsoever to reduce the cost of home heating oil, despite it being the source of heating for one third of Irish households.

Households are struggling. Many of them have already been pushed to the brink, despite all that happened in last year's budget. They know that action is required. We know that action is required to protect and support them in the months ahead. The Government yesterday decided to vote against two proposals that we put on the table with regard to mortgage interest relief, and a spring bonus and other supports for the most vulnerable. I ask the Tánaiste, on behalf of those individuals who are seeing their mortgages increase, whether the Government has a proposal it is planning to bring forward to support them with their increased mortgage rates. Given that the Government has ruled out a spring bonus, what does it propose to do for those who are really suffering, visiting food banks and going without meals, as described in great detail by Barnardos?

The Tánaiste

Ar dtús báire, ní aontaím leis an Teachta ó thaobh an mhéid tacaíochta atá tugtha ag an Rialtas do mhuintir na tíre seo, go háirithe don dream atá ar ioncam íseal. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil suas le €8 billiún curtha ar fáil ag an Rialtas ó thús 2022 chun cabhair agus tacaíocht a thabhairt do chosmhuintir na tíre seo i gcomhthéacs an ghéarchéim costas maireachtála. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil agus, go háirithe i rith an gheimhridh, go raibh géarchéim uafásach ann. Rinne an Rialtas cinneadh dearfach cabhair agus tacaíocht a thabhairt do dhaoine chun an brú a ísliú chomh fada agus is féidir linn.

I can recall the last time we introduced measures as part of the cost-of-living and budgetary package last autumn. I think the Deputy would be humble enough to admit that the measures we announced exceeded the Deputy's own presentations at that time-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Not at all.

The Tánaiste

-----with regard to scale and range-----

Deputy Thomas Gould

The Government copied us.

The Tánaiste

-----and breadth of proposals.

Deputy David Cullinane

I think humility is needed over there.

The Tánaiste

The point I will make is that, from the beginning of 2022, more than €8 billion has been allocated to specific tax and expenditure measures to try to help people. We are going through a cost-of-living crisis. There were initial inflationary pressures coming out of Covid because of supply chain issues. Everyone accepts that these pressures were very much exacerbated by the war in Ukraine and the energy crisis that unfolded. The Government took very significant decisions on that basis. In fact, the ESRI has found that the once-off measures we introduced as part of budget 2023 will insulate most households from rising energy prices this winter. The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council reckoned that we got the balance right between providing relief to households and firms and not making the inflationary situation worse. We understand, of course, that some measures are due to expire at the end of this month. The Government will be holding a series of meetings in the coming days to ensure that there will not be a cliff edge and that we will continue to support families who continue to be under pressure because of the cost-of-living situation.

Inflation appears to have peaked and is now trending downwards. That has to be factored in. The budget in 2023 included a total package of €11 billion. Some €4 billion of that comprised once-off measures. Some of it is still feeding through. A household in receipt of fuel allowance this winter will receive a total benefit of almost €2,000, made up of a €924 fuel allowance payment for the winter of 2022-23, a €400 fuel allowance lump sum and €600 of electricity credits. It is a significant measure by any yardstick.

We paid eight separate cost-of-living lump sum payments throughout October, November and December last year: a €200 living alone allowance lump sum; a €400 fuel allowance; a €500 working family payment lump sum; a €500 carer's support grant; a €500 disability support grant; a double child benefit payment; a double welfare payment in October and a further double payment as part of the Christmas bonus. In addition, the 25% reduction in childcare costs has put €2,000 and more back in pockets of parents. The cut in the universal social charge, USC, means that workers on the minimum wage will now remain outside of top rates of USC. We have introduced a new rent tax credit of €500 per year. All in-hospital patient charges will be abolished. We have extended and will extend coverage for free GP care and we will do much more. We will take decisions in the coming days to deal with the cliff-edge issue to make sure we can continue to support people who are under pressure.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Prices are still rising. As the Tánaiste, his Cabinet colleagues and backbenchers slap themselves on the back in relation to what they have done, I urge them to listen to the words of Barnardos, not Sinn Féin, which is telling us what is happening out there in real life. Barnardos is saying that of those surveyed, one in ten visited food banks, one in five did not have enough food at some point last year and nearly one in three skipped meals so that their children could eat. The pressure on food banks and charities is growing. Prices are continuing to go up and people need a further response from the Government to meet the needs of families.

We have put forward proposals. Many of the families queuing at food banks own their own homes. They are paying mortgage interest rates amounting to thousands of euro more, but the Government has decided to do nothing for them. Does the Government plan to do anything for those who are now paying 7% or 7.5% interest on their mortgages? The Tánaiste has ruled out a spring bonus and other supports that we have proposed. What does the Government plan to do for those families I have mentioned - the one in ten who are going to food banks, the one in five who do not have enough food and the one in three who are skipping meals so that their children can eat? Under this Government's watch and the Tánaiste's leadership, that is what is happening in the real world.

The Tánaiste

Under our leadership, we are bringing in free primary schoolbooks for all children next September and we have waived examination fees. We had a once-off reduction at third level in this academic year of €1,000-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

The queues are getting longer.

The Tánaiste

-----and there will be a €400 to €500 reduction next September. We have increased Student Universal Support Ireland maintenance grants, with a once-off double monthly payment before Christmas. We have had a 20% public transport fare reduction.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

Is the Tánaiste going to answer my question?

The Tánaiste

I am answering the Deputy's question.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

He is not answering it. What about the people going to the food banks?

The Tánaiste

What the Deputy has done is use a clever device. We all talk about the Christmas bonus and the Deputy uses a nice, politically clever device - hey presto, a spring bonus. Let us have a summer bonus. Let us have an autumn bonus.

A Deputy

Why not?

The Tánaiste

It is good politics, but that is all it is - clever politics.

Deputy David Cullinane

Clever politics? The Tánaiste is trivialising a serious issue.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is attempting to be clever but I do not think it fools people. What is more important-----

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There are people queuing for food on the streets of this State.

The Tánaiste

Let us take the issue of mortgage interest relief. The people that the Deputy identified in his presentation would not actually benefit as much from mortgage interest relief as he might think. As he knows from previous experience, it was the top two deciles who benefited most from it. Is the Deputy really as committed as he suggests to those on the lowest incomes?

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

We are going to come forward with proposals to deal with people on low incomes, and to target our resources at those on low incomes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are out of time.

The Tánaiste

These are the measures that are now being discussed among the party leaders.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

Governments of the world can be split between those who are climate leaders and those who are climate laggards. All of us want to ensure that Ireland is in the first category rather than the second, showing leadership on climate and not lagging behind others. Let us look to some examples of leadership by different governments. In Wales, the Labour Government has taken the radical decision to halt future road-building projects due to climate concerns. In France, the Government is moving to ban short-haul flights where a decent rail alternative is available. In Australia, state governments are turning down mining licences to avoid further damage to the coral on the Great Barrier Reef. Closer to home, the European Parliament has voted to ban the sale of new combustion-engine cars by 2035.

Politics is about choices, as we know, and change is always a choice. For a great many years, Ireland was labelled internationally as a climate laggard. The passing of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act, which we all supported, marked an important step in this country’s path to a cleaner environment and a safer future, and to positive change on climate. As in so many areas, this Government’s approach to climate action since then has been strong on rhetoric and the setting of targets but weak on delivery and the achievement of targets; more laggard than leader. It does not help that many of those supporting climate action within the Government are so regularly undermined by others in the coalition Government, although I have to say that looking across the floor today, it looks more like a single-party government than a coalition.

The Tánaiste

Those were the days, my friend.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

No comment.

When we are asking people to come along the way with us to a net-zero future, we need to see the Government introducing climate action policies which will show benefit in the short term. We need to see carrots and not just sticks. We need incentives and not just sanctions when it comes to climate action. Yesterday, the Taoiseach confirmed to me during Leaders' Questions that the "I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-a-budget" mini-budget will be launched next Tuesday. We will hear some clarity then as to the measures to be introduced and that is welcome. Can the Tánaiste give assurances that the mini-budget package will be targeted and sustainable and that the measures introduced will be environmentally proofed?

I know that there is disquiet in the Green Party that in addition to being insufficient to make a difference to the bills of the most hard-pressed families, untargeted electricity credits may also have done little to progress climate action. This is a real concern with that particular measure. As part of Tuesday’s package, why not adopt instead the Labour Party proposal for a €9 climate ticket that we put forward last October? Modelled on the scheme in Germany, the ticket would enable people to take unlimited public transport journeys on trains, trams and buses for just €9 per month. This would have a significant impact on emissions, equivalent to taking 23,000 cars off our roads. It would also help people to make the move to public transport and assist in addressing the cost-of-living crisis. We are seeing other jurisdictions taking leadership on climate. In next Tuesday's mini-budget, will this Government be taking leadership on climate measures too?

The Tánaiste

Among the negatives of the terrible war in Ukraine is the obvious and shocking impact of the death and destruction of young people in a war, both Ukrainians and the young Russians who are being sent to the front line by a despotic leader who seems to have no consideration for life or limb. There is also the terrible impact on civilians in Ukraine, with the displacement of 8 million people. Along with that, people analysing the war will say that it has had a negative impact on climate. The rush to reduce dependency on Russia for gas and oil means that more and more liquified petroleum gas, LPG, is coming into Europe and because of the inflationary pressures that have come from the war, we have had to deal with cost-of-living increases.

Deputy Bacik has rightly raised a conflict that potentially arises when we try to protect people from a financial and socioeconomic point of view by helping them with the cost of filling their car with petrol or diesel and by subsidising them in terms of home heating or reducing VAT on fuel. That creates tension. Given the extraordinary and exponential rise in wholesale and retail prices - although retail prices never followed the wholesale prices fully, they did go up significantly - over the last year we found ourselves, counter-intuitively, having to help people with their expenditure on fossil fuels. In ordinary times, that would obviously not be the direction we would want to take in terms of climate change more generally. That balance is there. Over the last six months, we have rightly had to look after people in terms of their capacity to live in the context of their basic expenditure.

We also took other initiatives, to be fair. We took a school transport initiative to try to encourage more people to get to school by bus. We tried to use the cost-of-living package - I was very keen on this - to embed measures that would be beneficial for the climate into the future. One of those was the school transport initiative. Another was the general reduction in travel costs, with the 20% reduction in public transport fares and the youth travel card discount of 50% to the end of 2023. I would like to see that extended beyond 2023, if I am honest. That is where we should go in respect of doing things that are beneficial to the climate.

We will continue to examine ways of making sure we do not regress in respect of the climate agenda as we try to protect households and low-income families in particular. On the fuel allowance, for example, I mentioned that families on that allowance are getting €2,000. If one looked at that exclusively through the prism of climate change, one would not be giving them that €2,000. That is just the reality of where we found ourselves in this time of exceptional cost-of-living increases.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

First, I echo the Tánaiste's words on Ukraine as we approach the first anniversary of this horrific and brutal war. I will be speaking at the Ireland For All rally this Saturday to show solidarity with those who have come here seeking refuge. I also look forward to speaking at an event on 24 February, organised by the Ukrainian community, to mark the anniversary of the brutal war.

In his response to me on the measures to be introduced on Tuesday, the Tánaiste has given no reassurance as to their environmental impact. I appreciate that the Tánaiste has said that he wants to see more radical measures on public transport, so why not adopt the Labour Party proposal on a climate ticket? It is a radical proposal that would have a significant impact on the cost of living for so many hard-pressed families and individuals, as well as having a strong and positive environmental benefit.

The Tánaiste has spoken of the high fuel cost for so many families. Indeed, I raised the matter yesterday with the Taoiseach. What will the Government be doing on the fuel allowance? What will happen for hardworking families who are really pressed on energy bills?

Finally, I wish to state that it is important that we show leadership in this House too. Earlier this week, I wrote to the Ceann Comhairle, asking that we adopt a clearer set of environmental policies in this House in terms of recycling, the segregation of waste, as well as on support for cycling and EV facilities in the House.

The Tánaiste

I agree 100%. I applaud the Deputy's position in terms of her address to the public meeting next Saturday. I think she has shown leadership in that respect, which I recognise and acknowledge. In terms of the broader agenda, I would have written to the Ceann Comhairle in my time in opposition. We now have the wildflowers on the Merrion Street entrance to Leinster House. The entrance is now much better than the manicured lawns of yesteryear. We need to do more and lead by example in respect of how we live and the reality of policies that we want to implement from a climate change perspective.

The Deputy referenced roads and so on earlier. I am not necessarily anti-road; we need roads for buses and EVs. There is a legitimate debate to be had about this. Last year I had the benefit of opening the Macroom bypass. We had not seen so many Kerry Deputies in Cork in a long time. The point is that the pollution relief and the impact on safety for the people living in Macroom was enormous. There is an issue here-----

Deputy Ivana Bacik

What about the climate issue?

The Tánaiste

-----that we need to factor in in terms of road-building.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

What about the climate?

The Tánaiste

There is a climate issue but we need to get the EVs faster, in my view. That would be my perspective on it.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I want to raise the issue of the housing crisis in County Kildare. There are more than 6,500 people on the social housing waiting list. Many of them are military families and the Tánaiste is their Minister, as Minister for Defence. At the same time, the Department of Defence has stated that 62 houses in the Curragh Camp are vacant or in various states of dereliction, which is unconscionable really when we think about how bad the housing crisis actually is. The Department will say that it is not a primary housing provider. That is true. It is not a housing provider from a primary point of view, but neither is the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is in the education business, but he is still providing thousands of student accommodation places across the campuses in the country both for single students and students with families. The UK armed forces have 47,000 family homes all across the UK. They are looking after their own people. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, believes that in order to educate we must first accommodate, and the UK believes that if you want to do national security you must first do social security.

If I could make three suggestions to make things a bit better, first of all I would ask that we change the policy in the Department of Defence and adopt the policy that we had in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s that we accommodate military families on military property to free up the private rental sector, take the pressure off the local authorities from a social housing point of view, and ensure that the military looks after its own. Second, I ask the Tánaiste to give a direction to renovate these 62 voids or vacant houses in the Curragh Camp and allocate them to military families for the same reason. It would take pressure off the local rental market and the local authority. Third, to double down on what Deputy Crowe said yesterday in this Chamber, the Department of Defence should be building its own housing, as it did in the past. If the university sector can do it for the students on campus, why can the military sector not do it? It is the international norm. If I could make one small suggestion, the next time the Tánaiste is driving home to Cork, he should take junction 12 on the motorway and have a quick drive around the Curragh Camp, which is a kilometre off the motorway. He could see for himself the potential these buildings have. He can tackle three crises: the housing crisis, the rural dereliction crisis and also the retention crisis in the Defence Forces. Then he can direct and instruct his Department accordingly.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. He is correct to say that for 20 to 30 years the policy has been to discontinue the provision of housing within the Defence Forces. I want to be very clear on this. The Deputy will have received responses to parliamentary questions from me. The Deputy, Senator O'Loughlin, Deputy Howlin and others have been in touch and written in on this. I have a meeting with the officials next week on the issue. As far as I am concerned, the policy of discontinuing the use of existing housing is over. We are in the midst of a housing crisis. It is not tenable that a policy would continue to exit this area or to allow houses to fall into dilapidation. I received a file recently asking for permission to demolish ten houses. I said "No". We are in the midst of a housing crisis and I do not intend to demolish ten houses. That is why the meeting is happening. I am very clear on the policy. As far as I am concerned, any existing housing within Defence Forces property will now be used for housing purposes.

The precise allocation is a matter that I am going to allow for further discussion and engagement on, because we do have social housing lists as well. I have spoken to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, who has offered assistance on this financially. In other words, we can work in partnership with local authorities in terms of the funding of this. In any event, it is not huge money in the context of the bigger €4 billion Housing for All fund that we are spending on an annual basis. There are not huge numbers involved, as the Deputy has said. There are 62 houses in the Curragh, but the utilities and the services are in place already. There is also planning permission already, to a large extent. I cannot, in conscience, countenance a situation where we would either demolish or exit from good quality housing that is potentially refurbishable and that we can put back into use. We have an accommodation crisis and a housing crisis. We made it clear when we developed Housing for All, that every Government Department and agency has to get it that they all have a role to play in housing. It is not just a matter for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The Government has made it clear that this is a matter for every Department and for every agency, and they must all contribute, no matter how small or incremental that contribution might be, to the resolution of the housing situation so that younger people get a chance to get a house.

Deputy Cathal Berry

I thank the Tánaiste for that very reassuring answer, which is great. Something the Tánaiste may not be aware of is that you do not actually need planning permission to build military houses on military property for military families. It really streamlines the process. I am grateful for the answer and agree that in this country we have changed much more profound policies than this. We have changed laws on contraception, divorce and marriage equality, and they have all turned out to be good changes. They were the crises of the past. The housing crisis is the crisis of the present. In the past, the State could actually lean on the Department of Defence to deal with those past crises, whether it was the emergency during the Second World War, the Troubles in the North or the pandemic. I think it would be very sad if the Department of Defence cannot be leaned on to address the current crisis from a housing point of view. I am grateful for the Tánaiste's response. It is very reassuring and will make a huge difference to a lot of military families out there who are constantly in my constituency office begging for housing. I very much look forward to working with the Tánaiste on this. I thank him for his response.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. It is interesting that as we change policies over the decades and so on, we realise that not all that happened in the past was wrong. There may have been issues with the policy, management issues, challenges in terms of maintenance and so on, but the bottom line was that it was all about the quality of life. We are endeavouring to recruit and retain people in the Defence Forces. The response to that crisis of both recruitment and retention has to be multifactorial. It has to be about the quality of life within the Defence Forces across the board. Obviously, the numbers are not of a significant scale in terms of what is there, but the idea of that being an additional factor that could help the quality of life and the retention agenda into the future is something that I am very mindful of.

There are 62 unoccupied married quarters in the Curragh at a time when we are in the midst of a housing crisis. We are spending a lot of money building new houses. I am in agreement. That is what I intend to do.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I raise the urgent need to regularise the contracts of adult education tutors employed by education and training boards, ETBs, and the establishment of a salary scale that accounts for their years of service. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, is in the Chamber. He will know I have raised the matter with him and submitted parliamentary questions many times. There are approximately 2,500 full-time adult education tutors. That is what we are talking about. They are employed by ETBs across the country. Different rates are paid to tutors in different places. For example, in Donegal adult education tutors are paid less than those in the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim education and training board, MSLETB. In Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim, tutors are paid what is known as the unregistered teacher rate, which is also paid by some other ETBs. Many of these tutors are fully qualified teachers and are registered with the Teaching Council but are being paid an unregistered rate. By far the biggest issue is that their hours are capped at 22 hours of class contact time per week. They are not paid for any preparation, research or work they do to prepare lesson plans etc. They get nothing for that work. Their salary is based on an unregistered teacher's salary and capped at 22 hours per week.

However, that is not the end of it. Adult education tutors do not get paid for the summer months or at the term breaks at Christmas or Easter. In fact, adult education tutors who protested outside Leinster House yesterday were on mid-term break. They all had to sign on for jobseeker's allowance for the week, as they have to do for most of the summer, Christmas and Easter. That is really unfair. They deserve a proper contract of employment. One tutor I spoke to last autumn told me it took several weeks to organise the jobseeker's allowance. He got it, but when he went back to work at the beginning of September it was almost the end of October before he got paid. In the meantime, he had to pay all his bills, including his electricity bill and his mortgage. He also needed to put petrol in his car to go to work. That is just one example but it is typical of the many.

In March 2020, almost three years ago, the Labour Court recommended that the Department of Education make the tutors an offer. Last July, tutors were promised that the proposal would be on the table by the end of September and almost five months later, there has been no word. Those tutors have waited and waited. They have uncertainty about hours and annual income, which has a huge impact on all of their lives. I ask the Tánaiste to use his influence in any way he can to bring this to a satisfactory conclusion.

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising an important issue in respect of our commitment to adult literacy, adult education and the importance of ensuring high quality resources are available to enable us to achieve the objectives we have set in respect of adult education and literacy more generally. Some 3,300 adult education tutors are employed across the 16 ETBs. There is no specific public sector grade, as the Deputy has said, for adult education tutors. They are paid on the basis of an hourly rate and, as the Deputy said, generally at the unqualified teacher rate. Progress has been made on other issues for adult tutors. However, a claim from SIPTU and the Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, to align adult education teachers to a payscale of an existing ETB grade remains unresolved.

In 2020, the Labour Court recommended that the official side make an offer and a joint proposal has been prepared by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and the Department of Education, which retains regulatory responsibility for the ETB sector. That proposal is currently under discussion with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, with a view to finalising an offer to the unions at the earliest opportunity.

Progress has been made in the regularisation of the adult education tutors with the introduction in 2017 of a consistent method for awarding contracts of indefinite duration across ETBs, and the provision in 2019 of access to leave schemes, paid leave and the appropriate public sector pension scheme. While the Labour Court recommended in March 2020 that the official side make an offer on the issue of a payscale alignment, it accepted that, having regard to the contrasting nature of the roles, qualifications, flexibility and regulatory frameworks involved, any offer could not involve alignment with the teachers' scale. A joint proposal has been prepared with a standardised payscale aligned with the Youthreach resource person's scale. That would apply to staff employed in ETBs to deliver further education training programmes. Those staff are currently employed under a variety of terms and conditions.

There is still work to be done on the issue. An offer will be made and no doubt there will be further discussions. Nothing here is a fait accompli. This is a matter that needs to be dealt with and resolved.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. He mentioned the 3,300 tutors employed in ETBs. Approximately 2,500 work full time. I know that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform uses the 3,300 figure when it talks about the costs but the other 800 tutors are on two four-hour contracts. That is a small point.

The Tánaiste is right that some progress has been made. He raised the issue of public service pensions. We must remember that a public service pension will be based on a 37-hour week while tutors' hours are capped at 22 hours per week. That means they end up with a much smaller public service pension. It is, according to my calculations, 59% of what it might be. That is not even the end of it. There are between 15 and 17 weeks every year when those tutors are availing of jobseeker's allowance and are not contributing to a pension. That brings them down to between 39% and 42% of the public service pension. We can see how urgent it is that we deal with this matter. There has been unacceptable delay in regularising their contracts. I ask that the response is speeded up as much as possible.

The Tánaiste

I am not arguing with the Deputy on this point. The value of the role of the tutor, which has now existed for over 25 years or more within the further education and training sector, is generally accepted. The regularisation of the grade is essential to ensure the flexibility and agility we need to meet current and future needs. The Future FET: Transforming Learning National Strategy 2020-2024 sets out an ambitious agenda for the sector. Tutors have a critical role in ensuring that the sector continues to adapt and facilitates the development of responsible and agile learning pathways to realise the targets set. It is always my view that we need agility and flexibility. We need to respond to this issue and agility and flexibility are critical, particularly, at times, around the qualifications piece. I do not want to say too much but sometimes a system can be too regulated in respect of the qualifications side of the coin and in terms of the range of courses we provide. The people who are best placed to provide those courses may not have standardised qualifications. Sin scéal eile. I am with the Deputy in respect of resolving this issue. I know the Minister, Deputy Harris, is equally committed.