Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 5

Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

I welcome the crew from Mountbellew and Gerry Connellan from Elphin. We have discussed this Bill at committee and had the different farming organisations in. The Minister is aware of the different views in the line of fertiliser. Last year many people could not afford to spread fertiliser but I hope some of the monopolies in the context of inflated prices might be sorted out in the second quarter. That is my understanding. No more than plastic or any other thing, I cannot fathom how the Department will control or look after the stuff that comes from across the Border under this Bill. Until there is an Assembly in Northern Ireland and one is working in conjunction with the other, it is hard to see how it will work.

There is a register. That is fine and I accept that part, but there is an issue. The Minister knows it, being from Donegal. I come from a village in the parish of Glinsk. There is one shop and one pub. Fair play to them, they are giving a service where one can buy meal or fertiliser, but it is in a small context. I brought this up before at committee. We need to make it workable. They will not be able to afford big whizz-kid computers or IT systems. We wish to make sure that we facilitate those people, as best as possible and we are not making it cumbersome. I am not saying it is happening in agriculture, but in many other areas, such as quarrying, we are driving it to the big guys and forgetting about the small person. The same goes for building, where the person who built four or five houses cannot tender for the big job, or Irish Water, where one has to have €1 million or €2 million of a turnover, before one can tender.

I know one does not have to tender for this, but the Minister understands better than anyone, given where he is from, that if one makes it cumbersome for a person to sell - fertiliser is one of the tightest games for the person in the shop - he or she will not stay doing that for the amount of money involved. Will the Minister and his officials, who are with him today, look at that to make it a workable solution for those people?

I do not know what part the farmer has to play in registering. I presume wherever the farmer buys from will be registering, but a farmer may have to do something or fill something in. With the fodder scheme if a farmer presses the submit button and has filled in something wrong, they are penalised and, unfortunately, they do not get the money they were to get. There needs to be a phased-in period of working with the farmers to make sure that they understand it. Not everyone has the facility of being IT literate and being able to use computers. We need to make sure that we do this and it is not going to be a cost on the farmer or those small merchants. I am not worried about big co-ops that are selling thousands of tonnes. I am looking at the small person selling, where the farmer can go off on his Massey Ferguson 35X, pick up a tonne from that person and bring it home. I ask that the Minister look at that part.

I have made my views clear about distribution and the vet getting too much control. While I have the height of respect for vets - one can get a vet quicker than a doctor in many parts of the country - there should have been a better allowance made for the responsible person. I ask the Minister and his officials to look at that to see how we can work around it. In fairness to the Minister, he has shown a bit of flexibility. I grant him that. However, we made a considerable mistake with the British, who are gone out of it. My understanding is that in 2014, they wanted Ireland with them in respect of the responsible person.

The other thing is about medicines. I am not talking about something for a calf with scour or an injection that is not generally used on the farm. I will be very blunt about what I am afraid of; it is that we are giving vets an open hand at, basically, screwing a farmer. That should not be allowed to happen. We need to make sure we have a simplified system for dosing for fluke and worms. I understand fully about sheep, cattle and so on and where cattle are not reacting to some of the drenches or it is not stopping the problem. I understand all of that. The Minister pointed to the responsible person. In many of these cases, the vets or some others were putting it out. That is the bottom line.

No more than for fertiliser, I worry about how it will operate and about a fool proof system either side of the Border to make sure people are adhering to this or that this does not cause a market to move away.

I look at the likes of Roscommon, where you can go into Colm Tully and get your stuff. It is a great service. It is beside a mart. You can shoot in, as it were, and get your stuff, and farmers who are at the mart can get it on the way out, go home and do their dosing. I understand there are problems with mastitis and all that in the dairy sector, but this is about working with farmers and not putting extra costs in front of them. That is the only part I worry about. I am not against making sure resistance in dosing is tackled. I am not against that whatsoever. I agree with that because otherwise we would end up with problems in every part of the country.

Another thing is that some of what we would call the good doses have been taken off the market lately. Some of the doses were great down through the years but you do not see as much of them now. I do not know what is going on or how the pharmaceutical operators are working. I am not going to talk all evening on this because we have gone through it at committee time and again. The one part of this Bill relating to dosing gear and medicines needs something, be it at a herd test or whatever, where the vet would do the plan for the year on it for what is needed, and that it is put in. I know there was to be an allowance and perhaps the Minister will confirm whether a group of co-operatives could have a vet and could work that way. I do not know whether that can be worked. The Minister might confirm that to me.

That is my main concern. As we discussed at committee, farmers are taking €22 or €23 less for a lamb and the cost of meal has gone up. I hope the Minister will address that very shortly because there are many of those farmers. I am concerned we will make things dearer for them. We are all trying to keep rural areas as affluent as possible and doing as well as possible. However, with the way stuff has gone up in price, including fertiliser and everything else farmers are buying, we do not want, as elected representatives, to be putting more bureaucratic paperwork in their way and, on top of that, more costs on top of them.

I would ask the Minister and his officials to consider the following. I met the Chief Veterinary Officer one day and showed him a system. The Minister's own adviser also saw it. I do not know what the Minister's thoughts on it are but it might make it easier for this whole system to work. I know the Minister will say that the responsible person can still put it out, and they can, but there has to be that bit of paper. All I am afraid of is the bit of paper farmers will need will cost them money. I have a fear about that.

There is one thing I would ask the Minister to do if he is going ahead with this, because it has to be done. I understand there are certain rules in Europe that we have to adhere to but I would ask the Minister to leave room for himself to review all of this within six months to a year so that if it is being abused, he can come back and basically crack the whip at where it has gone wrong. That is one thing that should definitely be done. It is about farmers. We have more farmers in the country than we have vets and they are more important to me, to be quite frank about it. I have no disrespect for vets. They are great people but the farmers are the people producing the food, who are up at night lambing the ewes and keeping the whole system going. I would ask the Minister to look at that and try to put that into it.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for his contribution today and thank other Deputies for their very wide-ranging and mostly well thought-out contributions from across the floor the last time we were discussing this Bill. It has been a positive start to the legislative journey through the Dáil and the Seanad. I will certainly be taking on board the various contributions made by Deputies to the debate.

To recap, we fully accept that animal herd health planning and good husbandry practices are the starting point in optimising farm outputs. However, veterinary medicinal products and medicated feed are a vital cog in our agricultural production cycle and they make an important contribution to animal health and, ultimately, to public and human health. One of the key objectives of this legislation and of recently introduced EU legislation, which I gave effect to earlier in the year by way of a statutory instrument, is to ensure animal and public health as well as the environment are protected through the appropriate use of these products. This legislation is an important part of that objective. I am also conscious of the views expressed by Members during this Second Stage debate and of the views of stakeholders expressed throughout the extensive engagement and consultation we have had on this legislation. As Deputy Fitzmaurice said, considerable time and attention has been given to this by the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

I have listened intently to those who spoke of the importance of ensuring farmers will continue to have a choice about where they purchase their products, which is so important. The issue of the derogation was mentioned by several contributors and is one that has been discussed and considered very extensively. The recent advice received from the Attorney General's office has brought clarity to this issue and I am now focused on ensuring a competitive marketplace for the sale of veterinary medicinal products remains into the future. All existing stakeholders in the sector, including veterinarians, co-operatives, licensed merchants and pharmacists, will all continue to have a role in ensuring competition and choice continues to be available to farmers. I am acutely aware of the impact additional costs could have on farmers, especially in the times we are in, but I am confident that achieving the objectives of this Bill and the overarching EU regulations will reduce costs on farmers through reduced, but more effective, use of veterinary medicinal products. That will also be achieved by keeping diversity in the supply chain.

Put simply, I want to ensure we have a robust system but one where farmers continue to have the appropriate level of options for accessing the products they buy. On the introduction of the national veterinary prescription system, NVPS, I am convinced that, in years to come, we will look back at this moment as a turning point in Ireland's battle against antimicrobial and antiparasitic resistance. In his contribution, Deputy Fitzmaurice referenced how many of the products that were very effective over the years have now become ineffective or useless because of poor use and resistance being built up over time. This means the products do not work on animals anymore. Resistance builds up and then many of those products, in their appropriate formula, cannot be used in human health either. It is a very serious issue and one to which, in the context of both animal and public health, we must be attentive.

The potential level of insights available to all parties through the collection of veterinary prescription and dispensing data and the use of veterinary medicines will be invaluable for future policy direction. The system will provide for the digitalisation of an historical set of practices and will provide greater options to members of the farming community on where and when they obtain access to medication for animal welfare. It is also important to remember that greater regulatory oversight via the NVPS on the use of veterinary medication has the capacity to uniquely separate Ireland's agrifood producers from other EU nations when seeking access to international markets, and this will be vitally important to the continued growth of this nationwide sector.

I will now touch on fertilisers, the other key aspect of this legislation. The fertiliser register and its introduction will play an important role in our use of fertiliser as well as being an important aspect of the new Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. It will help us to build resilience in the agriculture sector. The North-South element of trade has been raised by Deputy Fitzmaurice and a number of other Deputies in the course of the debate. I reiterate there are no provisions in the Bill that will disrupt cross-Border trade. Trade in fertilisers will continue and farmers will be free to purchase fertiliser from outside of the State, as they have done up to now.

The only additional requirement will be that such transactions will be classified as imports and farmers buying from Northern Ireland, for example, will have to register as importers of fertiliser. The Department will include on-site inspections as part of its compliance monitoring programme. Risk-based on-farm inspections as well as inspections at merchant level to confirm the accuracy of information being uploaded to the database will also be included.

Another issue raised was how sports clubs and organisations will be categorised under this legislation. As I said previously, the purchase and use of fertiliser in quantities sufficient for use on football fields and their environments will be considered as commercial use. Therefore, sports clubs will have to register as professional fertiliser end users. However, I am satisfied that beyond registration, there will not be any additional burden placed on clubs, particularly if they do not hold stocks on site.

References in the debate were also made to the additional administrative burden that might be placed on merchants and farmers. I am acutely aware of this issue at all stages of the development and taking forward of this project. I can assure Deputy Fitzmaurice that we are working to ensure that the process is as seamless as possible. I believe that the system, as it has been designed and developed, is as easy and simple to use as it possibly can be. Most, if not all, farmers will only need to register once on the Department's online portal, agfood.ie, and then interact with the system once a year to declare any opening and closing stocks. The reporting of sales will be carried out by fertiliser merchants and there will be a simple straightforward system in place to record fertiliser transactions.

Concerns were also raised in relation to data protection. We have taken steps to ensure that the data collected under this Bill comply with all aspects of general data protection regulation, GDPR, rules and requirements. The robust data sharing provisions in the legislation will allow the specific sharing of data with other bodies to achieve environmental and sustainability targets and will be fully in line with GDPR and other data protection legislation.

To conclude, I thank the Deputies for their engagement today, as well as on Tuesday. It is important legislation. It will help to future-proof our agrifood industry while offering a robust strong and practical system for farmers. I will continue to engage on Committee Stage and will continue to work with stakeholders to ensure that the legislation that we bring in is one that achieves the objectives and ensures that we have a full accurate record and good and proper usage of fertiliser. In relation to antimicrobial resistance, in particular, it will ensure that we put in place a system which works for farmers, for public health and addresses the issues that have emerged in recent years, which have shown that if we are not monitoring and do not have a strong line of sight of this, everyone loses as a result. Ultimately, it could have significant implications for animal health and human health in the years to come.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

If it is being abused in any way by the veterinary sector, will the Department be able to look at that in six months or a year?

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

I want to ensure, first of all, that the structure we put in place means that the lines of supply and the means for people to purchase product are available and can continue, while ensuring that there is a robust veterinary input and oversight. Many of these products are overused. I was listening to Deputy Cahill, who as the Deputy is aware, is the Chair of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, when he made his contribution last week. He outlined how on his farm they have totally changed their approach and that is representative. Unfortunately, it is not representative of every farm, because not every farm has changed. Deputy Cahill outlined how on his farm they have changed how they use fluke administrations and wormer administrations, and how they use a lot less of it. In the past, it would have been used regimentally at the same time of the year. It is clear at this stage, from what we know now, that such use would not have been necessary and in fact would have been overuse. That is a cost saving as well as an animal health and welfare saving. We need to ensure that every farm in the country makes the change. That takes veterinary input and professional advice. Assessments and sampling are also required. We must do the right thing at the right time to ensure that what we are doing actually works and will work into the future. The structure of lines of supply is going to be important. We must ensure that where people purchase product remains open to them and that competition remains in the market. We want to achieve a situation where people purchase less of this product from everyone but continue to purchase it from people. We need to reduce the use of it, but we must ensure that people for whom this is an important part of their business lines can continue to operate with that veterinary oversight and input and with the new focus on the proper assessment criteria to decide how to use it. While we must keep the cost of the product highly competitive, it is also important that we reduce the cost overall because less of the product will be used if it is used in the right way, at the right time and in the right place.

I thank the Deputies and look forward to bringing the Bill to Committee Stage, having further engagement, and trying to expedite its passage through the Houses. I also thank my officials for all their work on this legislation. Ted Massey and Conor O'Mahony are here today, but I thank the members of the wider team as well.

Question put and agreed to.