Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Feb 2023

Vol. 1033 No. 6

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Forestry Sector

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, will be very familiar with the issue of ash dieback. I appreciate the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, are not present but I know the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, will convey to both of them the points I am about to make. It is important that I get the opportunity to bring this issue up on the floor of the Dáil Chamber.

Decades ago, a previous Government incentivised, encouraged and promoted the planting of ash throughout our island. It encouraged families and individuals to invest in their future so they would have something they could rely on as they got older, or perhaps it was that future generations of their family could rely on the monetary rewards they would generate when they eventually felled the ash and it was processed. They were told to do it for their future but they were also told to do it for Irish culture. It was said that this was an important part of our heritage going back to the days of Cú Chulainn and in terms of promoting our national sport of hurling and camogie, and that this would be a vital part of that.

They were told to invest, and there were posters and campaigns to invest in their future. In good faith, people around Ireland invested, be it landowners, farmers, individuals or families. They planted and they got a premium. However, through no fault of their own and with no responsibility on them, ash dieback arrived from the Netherlands, Denmark and potentially the eastern part of Europe. Ash dieback has ripped through our native ash and through some of the most beautiful, natural parts of Ireland, as we can see on the roadsides. It has also ripped through the investments that these individuals and families made. It has not just ripped through the plantations but has ripped through their families and, in many cases, it has ripped through their own mental health because of the impact it has had.

As a State, we have not gone far enough to compensate or to address the issue, and we need to change that. For example, I know of a man who went about clearing and replanting the area of ash he had planted as his future investment. The subsidy and support he was getting from the State was €6,000 and the cost was €16,000, so for this investment that he was encouraged and asked to make, and which he was told to do for his future and for our culture, he is making a massive loss.

The current proposed reconstruction and replanting scheme is not fit for purpose. It provides €1,000 per hectare replanted, which will not go anywhere near far enough. The groups that represent individual landowners and foresters are asking for something more substantial. They are asking for help. They are asking for €7,000 per hectare. At the very least, we need to give them approximately €4,000 per hectare to help them survive and to reward them for believing in the messages they were given by the State and the Government to plant for their future.

I am asking that this be looked at and that the proposed reconstitution and underplanting scheme be redesigned so it is fit for purpose and allows us to replant these areas in order to sequester carbon and help our environment, which is one of the most important issues of all.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Dara Calleary)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta O'Sullivan as an issue seo a ardú. I am taking this matter on behalf the of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, who has a speaking engagement in Longford this evening.

As the Deputy is aware, ash dieback disease has been more devastating in Ireland than Dutch elm disease. It is a relatively new airborne disease that has spread from eastern Europe and is now right throughout the natural range of ash in Europe and widespread in Ireland. Since the first finding of ash dieback disease in Ireland, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has provided support totalling over €7 million to owners of ash plantations impacted by ash dieback disease through the ash dieback reconstitution scheme, introduced in 2013, and more recently via the reconstitution and underplanting scheme, RUS, introduced in July 2020. Up to 31 December of last year, a total of 978 applications had been received into the RUS and these cover 3,783 ha. Of this total, 390 applications have been approved. Some 587 remain on hand, covering 2,543 ha, and these are at various stages of the approval process. In 2022, 228 ash dieback projects were approved, covering 1,230 ha.

Like all the other forestry schemes, the RUS expired on 31 December 2022. It provided 100% grant aid to landowners to clear their ash crop, replant with an alternate species and manage their forest until successfully established. For sites undergoing reconstitution under that scheme, forest owners were able to choose to replant with alternative species and the grant rates offered corresponded to the equivalent rate offered in the afforestation scheme. Forest owners still in receipt of afforestation premiums for their forests through the afforestation scheme continue to receive premiums paid at the rate appropriate to the species planted and outlined in the scheme document. Before Christmas, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage introduced legislation to remove the requirement for planning permission for projects less than 10 ha in size that involve the replacement of broadleaf high forest with conifer species. This has simplified the process for a large cohort of applications on hand and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, understands this will lead to an increase in RUS approvals being issued by his Department when the scheme reopens following state aid approval.

The Government has committed €1.3 billion to support the new forestry programme, which will cover the period from 2023 to 2027. It is intended to continue to offer a reconstitution scheme for ash dieback through the new programme. However, I have noted the Deputy's comments on the rates and will forward them to the Minister. Since taking office, the Minister has visited ash dieback sites. He has seen for himself the destruction caused by the ash dieback disease. He sees it every day in the hedgerows where he lives. The Minister has met representative organisations and individual forest owners and discussed this issue many times. He is more than aware of the genuine concerns among forest owners regarding the RUS and he has committed to reviewing all elements of the scheme to help address the concerns of landowners. He is also aware that the situation with the disease has changed since the time the previous scheme was launched. Silvicultural operations that may have been appropriate in the past are no longer appropriate. The Minister will take all these matters into account, including Deputy O'Sullivan's contribution this evening, in the review of the RUS.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank the Minister of State. I appreciate his comments about my contribution being taken into account and that the Minister will look at this in the review and, I hope, come up with something that is fit for purpose. Earlier this year, I visited forestry in Tipperary with some private forestry owners. It was the first time I was shown the symptoms of ash dieback and what to look out for with ash trees. Ever since being shown that I have seen the disease everywhere. Around my home area in west Cork it is along roadsides. Big, beautiful mature ash trees are slowly dying. This is going to have devastating consequences for biodiversity. It will destroy habitat and our whole landscape will change.

In all that, we cannot forget the impact this is having on families and individuals. It is absolutely devastating. I reiterate that we encouraged people to plant these plantations as forestry. We told them to do it for their future and for Irish culture. They were let down. Ash dieback came to these shores through no fault of theirs. The least we can do is formulate and design a RUS that is fit for purpose and compensates them for the losses they have made. I am encouraged by the Minister of State's comments on reviewing the RUS but this needs to happen fast. These families have been dealing with this disease for years now. I would really appreciate it if we could get some concrete answers and a redesigned scheme so these families and individuals can move on with their lives.

Deputy Dara Calleary

On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for raising the matter. The Minister and his officials are aware that it is very important not just to the Deputy but to forest owners across the island. As I said, the Minister is very familiar with ash dieback disease having visited many sites across the country, and indeed the disease is an issue in his own area. A new forest strategy for 2022 to 2030 has been developed and was informed by comprehensive engagement and consultation over the past year. This matter was raised many times during that process. I will bring the Deputy's remarks to the Minister's attention and ask him to engage with the Deputy further.

Veterinary Services

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the Chamber. I greatly appreciate that he is here but two Departments would be involved in the establishment of a new veterinary school, neither of which is the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I appreciate the Minister of State has taken the time to be here and do not wish to be in any way churlish but Deputies put forward Topical Issue matters on the basis that relevant line Ministers will reply. That said, I am sure the Minister of State will convey the contents of my contribution to a Minister.

The Minister of State represents a rural constituency, so I am sure he will be aware of the shortage of vets in large animal practice. Likewise, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, the Ministers of State at that Department, Deputy Hayden and Senator Hackett, the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and the Minister of State at that Department, Deputy Collins, are aware of it too. The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, certainly represents a rural constituency and Wicklow, the Minister's constituency, is arguably a rural constituency. As vets in large animal practice retire, we have a shortage of vets to replace them. This is a huge problem, especially given agriculture is still the biggest industry we have in rural Ireland. Vets in large animal practice are of course not confined to agriculture as there is also the equine industry, to which such vets are also essential.

There are a number of students who want to study veterinary medicine. I understand 581 students had it as their first choice in the CAO in 2022 but there are only 85 places on the island, let alone in this State. These are all at the veterinary college in UCD, which is obviously excellent and nobody is casting any doubt or aspersions on that. It is about the sheer lack of numbers. Of those students, a very large proportion of the graduates tend to go, for whatever reason, into research, working in veterinary hospitals and into small animal practices. That is their right and nobody is suggesting otherwise but that leaves a shortage of vets in large animal practice.

UCD is taking in 85 students, but there are more Irish students than that number studying veterinary medicine in Hungary and Poland combined, with 40 and 70, respectively.

For these reasons, it is clear we need to establish a new veterinary college. I believe the steps are under way. When the University of Limerick founded its graduate medical school, it not alone added a new school of medicine but also a new way of teaching. Instead of students getting their practical experience in hospitals, which they had previously done in the existing medical schools, they also got practical experience in general practices around the country. As a result, this meant general practice was perhaps more open to them. The option was more in their mind and they were more willing to consider it than they might have been had they never had any experience in a general practice. The experience of doing this is something that should be looked at with respect to this new veterinary school. I refer to having a veterinary school where students do not just do their practical experience in a veterinary hospital, like the one in Belfield, but do it in large-animal practices the length and breadth of not just this State but this island.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue. He is speaking at an event in the midlands this evening. I have a more than passing interest in this area as the brother of a vet. We shared a house with him when he was in UCD.

Late last year, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, issued a request for expressions of interest for higher educational institutions interested in building capacity in veterinary medicine, among other disciplines. I understand some institutions were subsequently asked to submit more detailed proposals for further consideration. The HEA in response recently announced the appointment of an expert advisory panel to review opportunities for new programmes in areas including veterinary medicine. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, indicated in the Dáil last week that he expects to have those recommendations for consideration by him next month. The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, indicated he is very pleased to see this initiative progress and develop.

The Government greatly appreciates the very valuable work veterinary practitioners undertake across our agricultural sectors, which are primarily livestock based, but also in supporting the health and welfare of our companion animals and, indeed, through their often unseen and unappreciated work in the food safety area. Over recent years, as the Deputy indicated, the demand for the services of veterinary practitioners across our society has been increasing, most especially in the companion animal area. This is a trend also seen across Europe. As the Deputy acknowledged, the number of Irish graduates from the excellent UCD school of veterinary medicine has not been able to expand to match this increased demand in Ireland. While we have always welcomed graduates from other countries coming to work in Ireland, recent data from the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, which regulates the profession in Ireland, show a significant and increasing number of non-Irish educated graduates registering to practise in Ireland.

The VCI has reported that the numbers of veterinary practitioners on the veterinary register is currently at an all-time high, in excess of 3,300. Notwithstanding this, I agree with the Deputy, and the Government is aware there continues to be a significant number of vacant positions advertised on a regular basis, especially across the mixed-farm animal and companion animal sectors of the profession. We are particularly aware of concerns being raised about the availability of veterinary practitioners to provide services to the farming sectors across the country and difficulties in the filling of positions in certain areas. This is a matter that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, is keeping under review.

Many of the non-Irish educated graduates being registered by the VCI are Irish citizens who have travelled to veterinary schools in different parts of Europe, including those referred to by the Deputy, and who return after graduating. This is reflective of the restricted availability of veterinary education opportunities in Ireland and where students who do not get a position at home must travel abroad to pursue their goal. While I cannot pre-empt the evaluation process currently ongoing, the Government does see significant potential benefit if additional student places could be provided in Ireland.

The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, and the Government would welcome such an outcome. We are a well-developed country with a strong education system. If, for any reason, a student wishes to study abroad then that is great, but we must be able to ensure there are enough places for people to study in Ireland, especially for an industry as critical as veterinary medicine. This would provide the opportunity for greater self-sufficiency with regard to the availability of veterinary practitioners in Ireland and provide opportunities for Irish students to pursue their career choices at home. Several educational institutions have submitted an interest in hosting a new veterinary course. This will be a matter for the review which will be published next month.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister of State. I will focus on one sentence in his response, that is, "Over recent years...the demand for the services of veterinary practitioners across our society has been increasing and most especially in the companion animal area". This is undoubtedly true. However, there has not been any reduction in the demand for vets in large-animal practices. As the Minister of State is undoubtedly aware, given recent controversy, the national herd is the same size. It is no bigger now, but is still the same size as it was 50 years ago. There is, therefore, still the same demand for veterinary practices to service agriculture. The horse sport and horse racing industries are developing and it is hoped to develop them further, so there is a particular demand for vets in that area too.

In that context, we must ensure there are vets coming out of our veterinary colleges and veterinary graduates who are Irish citizens coming back from abroad. Indeed, it is equally the case regarding foreign vets or those who are not Irish citizens and who qualified abroad and are coming here. We have a tendency in medicine to rely on foreign graduates. It would be a pity if we are going to have to rely on foreign graduates exclusively. They are excellent vets and I am not casting any aspersions on them, but we do need to ensure we are producing vets here too.

We must also ensure we are producing vets who want to go into large-animal practices, as opposed to going into research, companion animal and small animal practices. These make valuable contributions to society and animal welfare, but we do have an industry need for large-animal vets. This is why I ask that the UL model be examined. It was specifically geared towards ensuring that medical students had exposure to general practice. Whatever college is awarded the veterinary school, and I obviously hope it is UL because it is the one closest to me, I would hope it would look at UL's experience in developing the medical school because it has helped to get medical graduates into general practice. The other thing about UL is that it is also a graduate school. I know it costs a lot to educate vets. I do not know if the Minister or if the Exchequer are willing to fund the cost of the contribution required in this regard. I say this because if this is a graduate school, then we will not be able to compete with graduate fees in Poland, Czechia, etc.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Deputy. I agree absolutely with the need for the provision of vets for large-animal practices as well. This was acknowledged in the speech. Our agricultural industry is still absolutely crucial to our entire island. It is important we have the vets to service it, as well as the companion animal aspect as well. Equally, from the perspective of my Department, the research side is equally as important. As I said, the matter is being reviewed by the HEA. The Minister, Deputy Harris, will have that review by March. From speaking to the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and to the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, I know we are all anxious to see this pursued as quickly as possible.

Regional Development

Deputy Michael Ring

I am thankful this Topical Issue matter has been selected. I am glad the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, is taking it because he, the Taoiseach and I and members of the board of the Ireland West regional airport met recently at the airport. I was concerned in relation to some of the issues raised with us.

As the Minister of State is aware, there has been a strategic development zone there. The Government has designated it. The problem is that while the land is there, nothing has happened with it over several years. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle comes from County Galway and I was glad to see that recently the IDA bought land there. It is not zoned and has no planning permission, but it is a substantial amount of land. I cannot understand why the same IDA could not come in and try to find something to be done with the land at Ireland West Airport, especially when it is zoned and there would be no difficulty with planning. I would like to see the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Government and State agencies come together to consider this matter. The Taoiseach said at the meeting that this was something he would examine.

As a Mayo man in that Department, I know the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, will make sure that the high-profile meeting will take place. It is a wonderful opportunity for regional development. It is a wonderful opportunity to have a place that is zoned where industrialists can come in and create jobs immediately.

Last week I tabled parliamentary questions to find out how many times IDA Ireland visited Mayo last year. I was not very pleased with the answer. It was not 20, 15 or ten times. IDA Ireland came to visit Mayo once last year. Tonight, I want to tell the Minister of State and the Government that it is time the Government was serious about this regional airport. It has done very well. I am sure the Minister of State will concur with me when I compliment Joe Gilmore and his team, the staff who work in the airport, Ryanair and the other companies that use the airport. It has been a tremendous success. It came through a very difficult time with Covid and it is bouncing back. Almost 800,000 people went through the airport last year. I would advise anybody from the region that instead of going to Dublin Airport, where we saw the chaos last year, to use Ireland West Airport Knock because it is a pleasure. It is a pleasure to deal with the people there and to go through the airport. I assure people that their journey will be nice and smooth and they will not be waiting for hours outside, as people were in Dublin Airport.

Tonight the commitment I want from the Government is that the high-performance meeting will take place, the State agencies will come together and IDA Ireland in particular will bring more people into Mayo to look at that site. The site is ready-made for industry and jobs. The board is willing to help, as is the county council. We want balanced regional development. There is no balanced regional development in this country at present. I want to see the airport getting support from the Government. The reason it is not getting support is because the State does not own the land. As far as I am concerned, Mayo County Council has invested in it, as has the airport and the State. It might not be State land in name but it is State land. I hope that once and for all, we will see IDA Ireland and other State agencies taking a serious interest in the airport. There is no reason bodies such as the Passport Office could not be brought down to the area. There is no reason other Departments could not be decentralised to bring some of their work to rural Ireland.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I have to admit I feel slightly cheeky taking this matter this evening, given Deputy Ring's contribution to the development of the airport during his time in government. It was a serious contribution and he put in place a lot of supports. It was through his efforts that the strategic development zone was created. It is a matter of enormous frustration that it has not moved on. The challenge to the survival of the airport during Covid was immense. I agree with Deputy Ring that it is a credit to Joe Gilmore, the staff and the board that they got the airport through that period. Now that we have done so, we can focus on the strategic development zone.

Deputy Ring is absolutely right that the Taoiseach travelled to the airport last Friday week. The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, also visited. We met the board and we were briefed on the importance of the strategic development zone. As Deputy Ring is aware, the Department launched nine new regional enterprise plans in 2022. A key feature of the regional enterprise plans is that they are developed by regional stakeholders using a bottom-up approach. The west regional enterprise plan is chaired by Evelyn O'Toole of Complete Laboratory Solutions in Galway. The Deputy will be aware the west regional enterprise plan includes an objective to advance the development of regional entrepreneurship and the innovation ecosystem in the region.

Action 5 under the objective focuses on strengthening the enterprise strategy for the strategic development zone at Ireland West Airport Knock. When Deputy Ring was in government he ensured the designation of Ireland West Airport Knock as a strategic development zone. The airport is a critical piece of enterprise-enabling infrastructure for the region and the strategic development zone designation has the potential to enhance its role significantly as a driver of regional economic development, in the manner envisaged 40 years ago by the late Monsignor Horan, to develop both an airport and jobs. Deputy Ring is aware that the site has a complicated planning history. In fairness to Deputy Ó Cuív, he envisaged locating the headquarters of the Department of Community and Rural Development on the airport site. That fell foul of planning, which is why the strategic development zone was developed.

In 2022, the Department launched the regional enterprise innovation scoping scheme which provided funding of €3.4 million for 42 projects. The Horan Airport Trust secured funding of €50,000 under the scheme to undertake a feasibility study looking at the potential for an infinity hub at Ireland West Airport Knock as a focal point for the circular economy and its development for industry and clustering activity for various sectors. It is clear, from my interaction and meeting with the board, that this money is not enough and will not allow us to proceed as quickly as we need. The stakeholders, including IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and Mayo County Council, need to work collectively to achieve this.

Deputy Ring was present last week when the Taoiseach visited. We have undertaken to get all the stakeholders around the table in the coming weeks to decide on a plan for the strategic development zone and to ensure that plan is followed. I will work with Deputy Ring to ensure the plan is funded. I absolutely agree with him on the potential not only for the airport but also the wider economy in Mayo and the wider western economy with regard to the circular economy, energy and the services the airport can offer. I certainly will ensure the full weight of Government support will be behind this effort and that it is not only a meeting about a meeting but a substantive endeavour that we are starting on.

Deputy Michael Ring

I thank the Minister of State for his response. I know he is as committed to the airport and the region as I am. As I have said, it is probably the most important bit of infrastructure that we have in rural Ireland. We all need to work together and pull together. We all need to make sure this high-profile meeting will take place with the stakeholders, IDA Ireland, and whatever State agencies have to come. The time has come. The land is there, the zoning is there and the commitment is there. What we need now is to get regional development and bring back some balance to the regions. The infrastructure is there. Things in the country are going well at present. We need to be looking ahead and we need to know the west of Ireland will be catered for. I know that in his role, the Minister of State will make sure IDA Ireland will play its part. He and I will make sure the meeting will take place with the Taoiseach. I will continue to raise the matter until it does. What we really want is action. What we really want from the Government is a real commitment. I know the Minister of State is committed to it. I am asking him to deliver the message that it does not have to be in the ownership of IDA Ireland. IDA Ireland has done a very good job and I would never fault it. When I was a Minister, I saw the way it performed outside this country. It has done a very good job. When it is committed to something, it delivers. I am asking it to make a commitment to this infrastructure. If it makes a commitment to it, it will deliver on it.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank Deputy Ring and his intervention is timely. When the Taoiseach was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, we secured up to €145 million in funding from the European Regional Development Fund to support projects coming from the regional enterprise plans that I previously mentioned. The officials are working with Enterprise Ireland on developing the scheme, with the aim of announcing the first call of approximately €35 million in the coming months. This funding will support innovative enterprise-focused projects throughout the regions such as those we are speaking about. I will certainly work with the Minister and the Deputy on achieving this. When the airport was opened, the headline on the front page of The Western People was "And They Said It Couldn't Be Done!". The board presented copies of this to the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers. They are also saying it cannot be done with the strategic development zone but we will prove them wrong once again.

Apprenticeship Programmes

Deputy Pat Buckley

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I thank the Minister of State for being here. This Topical Issue matter is exactly what it says on the tin. It is to discuss additional financial supports for people in the first two years of apprenticeships. I raise this matter because the first two years are the most crucial. I have been talking to many of the families involved, even as late as this evening when a gentlemen rang me whose query I will also raise. The family qualifies for a medical card because of their circumstances. One of the children is serving his time as an apprentice but the rate is so low that he feels, in the first instance, embarrassed that he cannot cope. He also feels he cannot be asking his parents for a sub, as we call it on the building sites, all the time.

In addition, there are no answers being provided. I made an inquiry today to see if it is possible to get a discretionary medical card in these circumstances because the cost of living is so high at the moment. Many of these apprentices start out on a very low rate and it is expensive for them to get to work. Years ago, people worked and did apprenticeships locally in their nearest town. I know one fellow who had to travel from Cork to be in Meath at 9.30 a.m. just to get his book stamped before coming back down to Cork. These are all added expenses.

We have a minimum wage but it does not apply to apprenticeships. The national minimum wage is €10.50 for those aged over 20, €8.40 for those aged 18 and €7.35 for those aged under 18. I picked out two rates of pay for apprentices, namely, construction and electrical, for which one would think there would be massive demand. For construction, the first-year rate for apprentices is €6.30 an hour and it is €9.47 an hour for the second year. That is not even the minimum wage rate for those aged over 20. In the electrical sector, the rate is €6.53 an hour for the first year and €9.97 for the second year, which is still below the national minimum wage. A national living wage of €13.80 or €13.85 has been called for. Is there is any possibility of addressing this issue because we are haemorrhaging young people at the moment?

To give my personal experience, in my own son’s class of 28, only three are still here. Four left two weeks ago. It is easier to head off to Canada and New Zealand, and some are even going to Dubai. This puts serious strain on the younger generation who are left behind and want to serve their time to get an apprenticeship and better themselves. It is so difficult to do that in the first two years. I mentioned the possibility of providing discretionary medical cards. Can anything be done as regards providing a tool or meal allowance? I believe SOLAS only pays a travel allowance of €7. God only knows where people are going to or coming from when they are going back to school or college to serve their time.

I raise this issue because so many families are frustrated and feel they have been left on a ship without a rudder. They cannot give their children answers about how they can better themselves and survive. They are caught in a bind trying to convince their children to stay the course, serve their time and get a full apprenticeship. They tell them this will give them a better chance of improving their lives. That is the reason I am raising this issue. As I said, apprenticeships are becoming more and more popular. There is significant demand for them. We should all work together on this issue in the House. There is no reason we should not do so.

Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Niall Collins)

I thank Deputy Buckley for raising this matter which is a very important for our Department.

Apprentices are primarily employees and all of the 66 available apprenticeships are undertaken under a contract of employment. For the majority of apprenticeships, the rate of pay is agreed between the apprentice and the employer, with the employer paying the apprentice during both on-the-job and off-the-job training elements of the apprenticeship.

For the 25 craft apprenticeship programmes, the minimum rates of pay applying under the employment contract are either agreed within the relevant sector or are set out in a legally binding sectoral employment order recommended by the Labour Court. These minimum rates vary between occupations and sectors but in all cases craft apprenticeship rates are expressed as a proportion of the qualified rate, increasing yearly from 33% of the qualified rate in year one to 90% in year 4.

Periods of off-the-job training are funded from the National Training Fund with payments of the agreed rate made directly to craft apprentices by the education and training boards during this time.

These training allowances are calculated with reference to gross wage norms payable in industry for the different trade sectors. The actual allowance received will generally be less as it is based on the net take-home pay calculated based on the gross wage norm. The gross wage norm is per week and the norm to be used is determined by the industry in which the employer is engaged. On that basis, any review of those rates currently payable is a matter for negotiation and agreement under the appropriate industrial relations structures in place and it would not be appropriate for me to be involved in the determination of apprenticeship pay or training rates.

While attending off-the-job training, craft apprentices are paid a training allowance appropriate to their training phase. In addition to training allowances, craft apprentices attending phases of off-the-job training in an education and training board, ETB, training centre, institute of technology, or technological university can apply for either travel or accommodation allowances for the duration of their off-the-job training.

Budget 2023 included a cost-of-living package for students and investment in third level education for 2023. Included in this was a once-off reduction of 33% to the student contribution fee paid by apprentices and additional funding for social inclusion measures in apprenticeships, such as a bursary for apprentices from the underrepresented groups.

As employees, apprentices who find themselves in difficulty are correspondingly entitled to access general employment supports through the social welfare system. I also advise apprentices to discuss the matter with their authorised officer who may be in a position to provide advice and guidance.

Deputy Pat Buckley

From all of the inquiries I have received - I will not say complaints - from people and families on the apprenticeship issue, nobody actually questioned their employer. These people are very happy. It is the small additional costs that are difficult.

I note the Minister of State mentioned the social welfare system. I see a problem with that. I am airing this issue to see if we can get some answers. Where both parents in a family are working in good jobs and the apprentice's brothers and sisters are in good jobs and still living at home, social welfare payments will be means-tested and the person serving his or her time will not get assistance in that instance. I understand the way the rates are structured, with qualified rates, etc., but I am looking at the long-term picture here. We need so many apprenticeships in this country. I am asking the Minister of State, although it may or may not be a question for his Department, if there is a way of improving the working conditions of apprentices, especially in the first two years when the rate is very low. It does not encourage people to go into an apprenticeship when, basically, they could sit on their backsides and claim jobseeker's allowance. Does the Minister of State understand my point? I am acting as a voice for parents who need answers and are asking if there are alternatives or ways to assist their children.

I know different criteria apply to certain crafts on the list but there are others serving their time whose craft will probably not be on this list. That is why I am asking this question. I was not expecting major answers. I welcome the access to information on social welfare. That at least is an avenue for people to ask questions and perhaps get answers. I appreciate the Minister of State’s time and his answer.

Deputy Niall Collins

I again thank Deputy Buckley for giving me an opportunity to set out my Department's view. In summary, while apprentices are excluded from the provisions of the National Minimum Wage Act 2000, as the Deputy mentioned, it is nonetheless important that they are supported financially for the duration of their training. The Deputy made that point very clearly and I am aware of it.

Recognising the importance of meeting Government apprenticeship registration objectives, as set out in the action plan for apprenticeship, and the possible implications of this matter for the recruitment and retention of apprentices, I assure the Deputy that the Department is engaging with partners to examine this issue comprehensively.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.20 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 22 Feabhra 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.20 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 February 2023.