Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 7 Mar 2023

Vol. 1035 No. 1

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Money Advice and Budgeting Service

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I commend and highlight the fantastic work of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. It provides an invaluable resource to many of my constituents, as I am sure it does to those of the Minister of State and other Members. I had the pleasure of visiting the MABS office in Ennis recently on the Clare Road, which I understand is one of 60 offices providing this essential service nationally. I met two of the fantastic team of three people there, who informed me that MABS has been operating in County Clare for 31 years. This is something to be very proud of. I was astounded, however, to learn that the office started with three staff 31 years ago and there are still only three staff there. Why is this the case?

MABS informed me that in the past year, demand for its services has increased by a whopping 44%. Given we are at the epicentre of a cost-of-living crisis, no one can envision that number going down this year or next. Interest rates are rising and have been for the past several months. The Cabinet today also announced the end of the eviction moratorium, so our thoughts are now with the individuals and families this decision will impact. MABS will undoubtedly receive a huge influx of queries from people in need and in desperation.

As the Minister of State knows, the Departments of Justice and Social Protection jointly fund the provision of dedicated mortgage advisors in these MABS offices through the Abhaile scheme. In January of this year, the dedicated mortgage adviser in my constituency of Clare handled 115 cases. In the entirety of the previous year, approximately 150 cases had been dealt with. Almost the same number of cases, therefore, were dealt with in one month as in the entire previous year. With all of this in mind, it can only be imagined how angry I was to learn that the funding for these fantastic roles is not certain; far from it. These positions are funded on a year-by-year basis and these terrific mortgage advisers go to work in January not knowing if they will have a job come December. The fact that this scheme is only extended on a 12-month basis, despite the past seven years of the project demonstrating the clear need for permanent State-funded assistance in this area, is madness. Can we not put it in place, and if demand then plummets, that can be addressed? Would that not be a better than what has been happening up until now? That makes sense.

The funding for this current year was only announced in November 2022, even though the announcement was promised in June 2022. To add insult to the injury of this significant delay, it was not announced internally but on the national news instead. There is also the major issue of funding being reduced in 2023. Funding this year was reduced by 20% but inflation has increased by 10%. This means a real-life reduction of more than 30%. This is a serious matter and will have a significant knock-on impact for development spending, such as social research, money management education, planning and evaluation, staff training and development. Caps on specific spending will result in the closure of outreach offices and this is a legitimate fear.

In a response to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, confirmed that a strategic review of this scheme was ongoing, with a view to being completed by the end of the first quarter of 2023. Now that we are only weeks away from this point, I request an update on where we are with the situation here and now and the Minister of State to confirm whether this scheme will be extended beyond 2023.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I join with the Deputy in praising the MAB service. We cannot do that enough. The work that organisation does across the country is critically important for families in challenging financial situations.

Abhaile is the national State-funded mortgage arrears resolution service that provides expert financial and legal advice and assistance to borrowers in home mortgage arrears, with the aim to identify, and put into place, solutions to those arrears that will, wherever possible, enable the borrower to remain in their own home. It is a non-statutory service, jointly funded and overseen by the Departments of Justice and Social Protection. It is implemented by MABS, which acts as the gateway for advice and support to borrowers, working with the Insolvency Service of Ireland, Legal Aid Board, Courts Service and Citizens Information Board.

Abhaile was established initially in 2016 for a three-year period. It was extended in September 2019 for a further three years and in November 2022 a further extension was made to the end of 2023. These extensions were made by the Government based on the continued need for the service and in the context of a forthcoming review to establish the future of the service. I understand that this review process began in 2021 with an initial independent governance review of the Abhaile service and a subsequent strategic review commenced in 2022, also by independent consultants. The purpose of the strategic review was to examine the overall operation, objectives and future of the Abhaile service in the context of its delivery since its establishment in 2016. The Ministers for Social Protection and Justice, Deputies Humphreys and Harris, respectively, are expecting the final report of this review in the coming weeks.

Consultations have been undertaken with key internal and external stakeholders, including submissions, meetings and workshops. An extensive programme of survey research has been completed among clients of the service, as well as those who have a direct connection with the service. An international comparison review and an analysis of economic indicators were also conducted in parallel, so it is a significant piece of work. The emerging indications point to a continued need for the Abhaile service at this time given the potential increased demand arising from mortgage interest rate rises. While levels of mortgage arrears have thankfully dropped generally in recent years, specific cohorts in, or at risk of entering, an arrears situation continue to need the support and guidance of the Abhaile service.

Initial outputs arising from engagement with stakeholders indicate that overall the different services delivered through Abhaile are viewed positively by stakeholders but, similar to any service, there is room for improvement. There is also an identified need to improve data collection in order to better track outcomes. The final strategic review report will make recommendations on service delivery. I understand the Ministers will consider these recommendations, which they expect to have soon, and will jointly bring a memorandum to the Government outlining the strategic review's findings.

Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne

I welcome that the strategic review is soon to be completed. I note the amount of work that is being done in the background. It is incredibly disappointing that there is still a refusal at this point to grant certainty to these hardworking people throughout Ireland. I am sure the Minister of State will appreciate that to have this level of uncertainty from the top down is incredibly disruptive for the organisation. It is like a kick in the teeth to the morale of the hardworking, dedicated mortgage advisers who are doing tough, intense and gruelling work. They are invaluable.

If a private company were to leave this massive question mark hanging over the heads of staff until four weeks before Christmas, there would be uproar and, as sure as night follows day, it would be widely condemned in this House. It is simply unacceptable. I urge the Minister of State to raise the matter with both Ministers. As we know very well on this island, uncertainty creates negativity. We know it impacts on planning, investment and business. Uncertainty has an untold impact on those whose primary vocation is to provide support and solutions to people in dire straits. These people should be held in high regard, enough regard to have certainty. Temporary contracts are not good enough. I request that this be challenged and changed.

I will highlight the importance of some of the work the Abhaile scheme does in providing hope to families on the edge who are at risk of losing the home they have worked so hard to own. Usually, contact is only made when these people have gone from complete despair to rock bottom and are in crisis mode. They face the biggest challenge in today's society, namely, the possibility of losing the roof over their heads. As a parent, I can tell the Minister of State what it is like in this situation. We are dealing with a myriad of difficulties and killer intrusive thoughts such as "Have I failed my children?" and "How can I put my kids through this?"

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

The Ministers for Social Protection and Justice were pleased to announce in November 2022 that the Government agreed to an extension of the Abhaile service for one year until 31 December 2023, having regard to emerging findings from the strategic review of Abhaile, which is expected to be completed shortly. This extension allows, in accordance with the commitment in the programme for Government, continued access to the important Abhaile services for households in long-term serious mortgage arrears. The findings of the current strategic review will be a key consideration when the Government considers the long-term delivery of the Abhaile service. The Minister expects to receive the final report of this review in the coming weeks and she will carefully assess its recommendations. Along with the Minister for Justice, she will then present a detailed joint memorandum to the Government providing for the future of the Abhaile scheme. I appreciate the general concerns the Deputy has raised but a review process like this, as I outlined in my initial reply, takes considerable time. It is complex. It is important to get this right and I am assured that is the ultimate objective of both Ministers. I hope the memorandum will be brought to the Government as soon as possible.

Water Services

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I raise with the Minister of State the Kilcummin sewerage scheme where work is now under way to connect residents from Kilcummin to the existing Killarney scheme. I ask that the connection for residents and others be left adjacent to their properties, on the roadside at their boundary fence. This is not happening at present. I ask the Minister of State to provide a funding incentive to help with the connection fee. Residents are being asked to pay in excess of €3,900 for connection.

The scheme is 3.7 km long and the project is to take sewerage from Kilcummin village down along the road to meet with the Killarney scheme and to treat it in the Killarney treatment plant. The cost is approximately €9 million. I had a long battle starting in 2004 to get the scheme going. It was to go ahead in 2008 but the contractor was disqualified and we had to start all over again. Then the country went bust and the economy went AWOL and that is where the scheme has remained since. Some 90 houses from Páirc Chuimín estate will be connected and 30 houses from Mountain View, as they had existing plants which will be connected to the scheme. Our Lady of Lourdes nursing home will also be connected, as it is at the start of the scheme. However, the residents of between 50 and 70 single houses along the road through Ballynamaunagh, Inchycullane and Coolcorcoran have been told they will have to pay €3,900 for a connection. On top of this, they will have to pay for the work to take the connection to their houses themselves. This is a new departure by Irish Water, as heretofore when all the other new schemes in Barraduff, Rathmore, Farranfore, Milltown and Ardfert in Kerry were progressed, the connections were taken from the main pipe and placed at the boundary wall free of charge adjacent to the residences. In Kilcummin, however, people must now pay a connection fee of €3,900. Irish Water says this has been approved by the regulator, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, to charge this sum. As this is a new departure in the provision of sewage facilities, will the Government make up the cost being charged by Irish Water for the residents' connections?

This is a big mistake. The connections should be made now while the work is going on. The Kilcummin road is closed to facilitate the works. In places, the main pipe is down 6 m to 7 m. If the connections are not taken out at the mains now, it is unlikely to happen in the future. Will the Minister put the contractor in funds to make sure these connections are done now while the work is ongoing? The purpose of the scheme in the first place was to prevent pollution and protect the Deenagh river and the beautiful lakes of Killarney from algal bloom. The full benefit of the scheme, which is paid for with public money, will not be realised if all the residences along the road are not connected to the scheme. In all the previous schemes, when the local authority did the job, the connections were made to walls of people's properties so that all they had to do was take it from there to their homes.

If it is not done now and it is left until a later date, there will be disruption and other complications.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue today and giving me an opportunity to outline the position in respect to Uisce Éireann’s responsibility on this issue. The Water Services Acts 2007-20 set out the arrangements in place for the delivery of water and wastewater services by Uisce Éireann and for the scrutiny and oversight provisions that apply in respect of these arrangements. As the Deputy will understand, the provision of wastewater services in County Kerry is a matter for Uisce Éireann in the first instance. Since 1 January 2014, Uisce Éireann has had statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local levels. The scope, prioritisation and progression of individual projects are matters for Uisce Éireann and are approved through its internal governance structures. My Department has made enquiries with Uisce Éireann about the issue mentioned by the Deputy. Uisce Éireann has advised that works are progressing on the Kilcummin sewerage scheme. The scheme will provide a new sewer collection system for Kilcummin village, which will ensure wastewater from the village is treated appropriately and to protect watercourses, as the Deputy mentioned.

The scheme will reduce reliance on on-site systems such as septic tanks and package treatment plants. It includes the construction of a new wastewater pumping station, gravity sewer and associated works in Kilcummin. Wastewater from Kilcummin will be transferred to the Killarney town sewer system for appropriate treatment at the Killarney wastewater treatment plant. This will improve water quality in the River Deenagh and in Lough Leane, provide scope to facilitate future development within the catchment and ensure compliance with EU and Irish wastewater regulations. The overall project is due for completion in early 2024.

The Government is committed to the significant and sustained investment needed to ensure the continued operation, upgrade and repair of the country’s water and wastewater infrastructure and to support economic growth in the years to come. In this regard, budget 2023 secured over €1.78 billion to support water services. This includes €1.65 billion in respect of domestic water services provision by Uisce Éireann. This overall investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services, support improved water supplies across Ireland, including rural Ireland, and support a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes and marine area, making a significant contribution to addressing Ireland’s needs.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. This is the first scheme that Irish Water has taken charge of and is responsible for in County Kerry. As I have said, up to now connections were left out on the side of the road for people, free of charge. While €4,000 may not sound like much to the Minister of State or to other people, if you do not have it, it is an awful lot of money. This is going to be a headline for all the other counties in which Irish Water will be responsible for sewerage schemes from now on. It says it will charge €4,000 per customer. I do not think that will work. It will not work in this case. It is a fright to God to spend €9 million of taxpayers' money and not ensure all the people along the road, who are adjacent to the road, are accommodated. There are between 50 and 70 houses that are not accommodated now. They were never ready for this. Most of them are conscious of pollution and water quality and want to be part of that. At this point in time, they do not have the funds to pay for it. Many of them visited my clinics in the last few days and highlighted what is going on. They said it is a fright that the pipe is passing them and the connections are not being left out while the work is ongoing. If people decide at a later stage that they will pay for it or whatever, it is going to cost Irish Water a lot more than €4,000 even to provide the connection as it will have to dig down 5 m or 6 m in some places, and maybe 2 m in most of it. That is never going to happen. What is the scheme for, if the big pipe is passing down the road and they are not connected to it? It does not make any sense in the world. It might be a small amount of money in the Government's eyes, but it is a big amount to the people involved. This is going to be replicated across the country. The Government either needs to talk to the regulator, which said it is all right for Irish Water to charge this money, or give Irish Water the funds to accommodate the connections.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I remind the Deputy that the progression of individual wastewater infrastructure is a matter for Uisce Éireann. There are dedicated lines for us to make those representations. The scope of the Kilcummin sewerage scheme included the installation of a sewer network and the construction of a pumping station. The scope did not include the provision of wastewater connections to residents in the area along the route of the wastewater network. As Uisce Éireann is a regulated utility under the Commission for Regulation of Utilities approved water charges plan, and in conjunction with the connection charging policy, there are no exemptions for connection charges. I understand Uisce Éireann held a public information evening in 2019, informing residents of the procedure for the submission of connection applications. Uisce Éireann has also advised that the connection application forms were physically distributed to all properties along the pipeline route which could easily connect. Any person wishing to connect a domestic premises to the public water or wastewater network should make a connection application to Uisce Éireann. Each connection application will be assessed and charged consistently across the country, in accordance with connections policy.

I assure the Deputy that the Government is committed to ensuring substantial funding is provided to Uisce Éireann. We are continuing that and have done since the formation of this Government. The programme for Government commits to funding Uisce Éireann's capital investment plan for water and wastewater infrastructure on a multiannual basis. The National Development Plan 2021-2030 commits to almost €6 billion in capital investment by Uisce Éireann in the 2021-25 period, of which over €4.5 billion will be devoted Exchequer funding for domestic water services. To reiterate, this is an operational issue for Uisce Éireann. In terms of the connection, there are no exemptions. It is important that the Deputy takes this matter up directly with Uisce Éireann.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am asking the Minister of State to deal with it, to help them and to sort it out because Uisce Éireann is not playing ball.

An Ceann Comhairle

It appears to me there is a valid point that the pollution caused to the environment by the homes of people who cannot afford the connection costs is as serious as that created for the environment by those who can. Maybe Uisce Éireann needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

It is a fair point.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Can I just say-----

An Ceann Comhairle

No, you cannot. I should not have said what I said either, so we will all be quiet.

Wildlife Conservation

Deputy Jackie Cahill

I wish to raise an issue about protecting wildlife and keeping a natural balance in wildlife, including fish life, in rural Ireland. Last week, I met representatives of several clubs including fishing groups, angling groups and gun clubs. They are extremely concerned about mink. Mink is an invasive species that has no natural predator. It kills for fun and for sport. It is doing untold damage to other wildlife and fish life. In Lough Derg, for example, it is having an impact on tourism, as fish stocks are being seriously depleted by mink. It is the same for one species in particular, the waterhen. If you walk along any river now, you will not see a waterhen anywhere. They have been completely decimated by mink.

Several years ago, a bounty was introduced for mink. It is known as the fur bounty or the tail bounty. It was introduced at €3 per fur tail delivered. That needs to be revisited. I suggest a figure of €20 should be paid. That should be done through clubs interested in conservation and protecting the wildlife and fish life in these areas. It needs to be done on a national scale. There were pilot projects in the past, when one area was done. Unfortunately, while you might get mink out of an area for a few months, it will repopulate quickly. This really impacts the balance of wildlife and fish life in rural areas. It needs to be examined seriously. I urge the Minister of State to use his Department to put a reasonable bounty in place. As I said, I suggest €20.

That would finance the clubs interested in protecting these habitats and would be a win-win situation for all involved. If we do not address the mink issue, it will decimate all forms of species in rural Ireland. Hares and young pheasants are suffering as well. The list is endless. Mink has no prejudice as regards the young wildlife or fish it will kill.

The cormorant is a bird that was confined to coastal areas but due to depleted fish stocks around our coasts, it has started to come inland. This is having a huge impact, especially on the lakes. In Lough Derg, as the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be aware, being from Portumna, they are decimating fish stocks. It is necessary that a census be done of cormorants in these lake areas to see how out of balance this is and the impact it is having. A cormorant has the ability to eat a serious amount of fish, 4 kg to 5 kg per day. A number of these birds in an area where we want to protect our fishery stocks will have a huge impact. I urge the Minister of State to get his Department to do a census on the cormorant and find out how many are there. Then we can see how serious the problem is.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I thank the Deputy. I will outline the general issues around invasive species. What the Deputy has highlighted is a serious imbalance in nature in general across the country because of habitats, invasive species and other challenges. It is an important issue. Our Department's National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, is responsible for the implementation of the Wildlife Acts and the European Communities (Birds and Natural Habitats) Regulations 2011, both of which prohibit the spreading of invasive species. In addition to this national legislation, EU Regulation No. 1143/2014 on invasive alien species provides for a range of concerted EU-wide measures to be taken with respect to listed species of Union concern. Together, these instruments make up the legislative framework for dealing with invasive alien species in Ireland. Public bodies, Departments and agencies throughout the country work within this framework, in the context of species listed nationally or on the list of invasive alien species of Union concern, to manage, control and, where practicable, eradicate these species.

Under this legislative framework, responsibility for dealing with invasive alien species rests largely with landowners. While my Department carries out important work to manage and control invasive species in its national parks and reserves, it does not have the resources at its disposal to undertake such work on a wider scale. Much of the work tackling invasive alien species happens at local level and is carried out by local authorities in their areas through their own biodiversity action plans.

Additionally, my Department's local biodiversity action fund, which offers funding to help local authorities achieve actions identified in the national biodiversity action plan, has been utilised consistently since its inception to aid in combating invasive alien species. Since 2019, 29 of 31 local authorities in the country have availed of this funding . These projects include the control of species such as Japanese knotweed and quagga mussel, along with awareness and education projects on how to tackle invasive alien species.

While excellent work is being done at local level, there is a need for greater co-ordination and coherence in the overall approach to this issue. In this regard, a national invasive alien species management plan was included in the programme for Government and has been prioritised in my Department. The plan is in its early draft stages and will operate on a national scale but the involvement and co-operation of key stakeholders at local level will continue to be crucial to its successful implementation. To this end, a steering committee has been convened to further the development of the plan and will hold its first meeting tomorrow, Wednesday, 8 March, in Dublin. It will be chaired by the NPWS.

The NPWS is also responsible for implementing the EU invasive alien species regulation in the national context. Under Article 13 of the EU regulation, Ireland identified and prioritised three priority pathways for the development of pathway action plans. The priority pathways are angling, recreational boating and watercraft, and soil and spoil. The angling and the recreational boating pathway action plans are five-year plans running from 2022 to 2027. The soil and spoil pathway action plan is still in draft. A full plan and synopsis brochure for these plans have been published on the National Biodiversity Data Centre website: Pathway Action Plans - Invasives.ie. These pathway action plans are aimed at preventing the introduction of invasive alien species and promoting and providing practical guidance on, among other things, protocols such as "Check, Clean, Dry" to mitigate the spread of invasive alien species through recreational water use.

The localised scheme the Deputy spoke about concerning mink was administered by the National Association of Regional Game Councils. I attended its annual meeting a number of weeks ago. The scheme commenced in 2012 and involved a bounty on mink as part of the wider effort to protect ground-nesting birds in western counties. I understand this scheme ran for three years until 2015 and is no longer in operation. As with any scheme, it might be supported by grant aid. Its renewal and expansion would need to be discussed. I commit to the Deputy that I will discuss this with staff. I will come back regarding the supplementary questions on cormorants.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

I thank the Minister of State for his reply but I note the NPWS has been given significant extra funding. It is essential some of that is put towards a bounty on mink. We cannot let this predator continue to roam uncontrolled in rural areas and in the water. If it does, many species will become extinct. The Minister of State stated the NPWS “does not have the resources at its disposal to undertake such work on a wider scale”. I accept that but with a bounty, through the conservation clubs and fishing and angling clubs the workforce will be there to do this. They know the terrain and how to trap mink. They would be well able to do it and would do it efficiently. It would help our biodiversity challenges and is essential. These people are passionate about protecting habitats for wildlife, as well as waterway habitats. They are exasperated about the damage the mink is doing. When you sit down and talk to them, you see their passion to protect species like young pheasants, young hares and water hens. Their passion is unbelievable. No one can deny the mink is a predator. It should not be in our countryside. They were let go wild by commercial enterprises when there was no longer a profit to be made. They have to be controlled and, to put it mildly, exterminated.

I urge the Minister of State to do a census on the cormorant as quickly as possible. The damage they are doing to our fish stocks is immense. The people who know the waterways and lake shores say no fish will survive if cormorant numbers continue to grow at the current rate.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

On the cormorant, we have a significant challenge in terms of data on many species, be they birds, plants or insects. Fishing and angling groups and gun clubs are on the ground day in and day out and they could be of use to us in gathering data on cormorant numbers. That would be most helpful. That is something we will give consideration to.

We have a huge challenge with invasive species. Deer numbers were raised here before and a significant cull will be required to manage deer numbers and bring them back to sustainable levels across our countryside. When we have an imbalance in nature and do not have connected or coherent habitats, we will always have a challenge with invasive species.

I agree wholeheartedly on mink. They are causing utter destruction of wildlife. We looked at the costing of a total eradication. Other countries have done it. It is very costly. Despite the increased resources we have received for the NPWS, we would not have the financial or human resources to do that at this stage. Ultimately, the objective would be to remove them from the countryside. I will go back to the Department and see if there is any way to revisit that pilot scheme, as a pilot or on a wider scale, and look at what the bounty might be.

I am not fully familiar with the scheme, because it was before my time. However, I will give a commitment that we will give consideration to the issue; see what the best way is to approach it and whether it could be revisited.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

If we are serious about wildlife, surely, we have to get a budget to exterminate the mink.

An Ceann Comhairle

The point is made.

Disabilities Assessments

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, for coming in to take this Topical Issue matter. We have considerable issues in community healthcare area, CHO, 5, especially in County Carlow. The children's disability network team, CDNT, in Carlow has more than 200 children on the waiting list for autism assessments. The children are taken off the list by the CDNT, per date order, unless prioritised as high-risk. These children are getting lost and we need to do something urgently about it. A facility in Carlow, which looks after children with special needs, has children scheduled to attend primary school in September who have never seen a therapist, or had any assessment of need. Holy Angels in Carlow has operated for more than four decades and has never experienced this lack of service. County Carlow is operating with one psychologist for the entire county and the psychologist has very little support. That facility is on its knees with regard to funding. It was allocated €21,000 for emergency support but its gas bill alone was €29,000. The facility is really struggling.

There are other considerable issues in special needs supports for children in CHO 5. Just last month, trainee educational and child psychologists undertook independent work in schools, under supervision of the senior psychologists throughout the country. In practice, this meant they were in schools by themselves, working on cases that are part of the caseload and were responsible for this. It included undertaking assessments of learning needs, identifying dyslexia, dyscalculia and other issues, solutions-based work with teachers and parents, or interventions around children's learning and emotional or behavioural needs. If the 25 trainees were not there to do this work throughout the country, the already overworked National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, psychologists would have to take on these cases. The waiting times for assessments would be even longer. They receive no financial reimbursements, other than the reduced rate of petrol expenses for travelling, which is another story. I wish to address that with the Minister of State the next day.

All children must have the opportunity to thrive and have access to an educational assessment of needs; the development of an individual education plan; the delivery of education supports and an independent appeals process. Schools must be fully accessible for all. We are waiting for a new chief nursing officer, CNO, for Carlow and I will ask the Minister of State to look at that, too. We are seeing considerable delays in assessments. Some assessments from 2019 are only being looked at now, in 2023. I know the Minister of State is aware that recruitment is a considerable issue. The already overworked staff are just not able to get to the work. All the benefits of early intervention are being lost.

I see these issues with my own eyes. Last week, I held a public meeting to assist the community to make submissions for the departmental review on educational needs, for children with special needs. I wanted to hear from families living the reality of this. The stories I heard were horrific. In one case, a child has no access to occupational therapy, OT, speech and language therapy, or assessment of need, even though his needs are acute in the school. We cannot give children the correct access to education, if they are not being met. We need to sort out the recruitment and the system has to work for every child. We need urgent attention for children's health services in CHO 5 in Carlow. Will the Minister of State confirm that the CHO has resources?

I also have to ask whether she has confidence in the HSE that these services will be delivered. We have children who are really suffering and families who are crying out for help. Parents have come to me very upset, because their children are not accessing the service they need.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I thank the Deputy for tabling this important Topical Issue matter. I would appreciate it if I could unpack it. If I am listening correctly, the Deputy's question is to do with the HSE and CDNTs, Holy Angels and preschool services; schools and educational psychologists and NEPS. Let me try to unpack it.

With regard to Holy Angels and its receipt of €21,000, the centre is designated under special education in the Department of Education. The funding it received from my Department was a recognition of the service level agreement, SLA, that we have in place between Holy Angels and the HSE. I do not have full control over Holy Angels, rather I have only a portion of control. The Department of Education has a role to play here, in supporting certain bills that are required to be paid, which includes the ESB bill. Maybe the Deputy can assist the management at Holy Angels, in that much of the burden of expense it has encountered over the past number of years was when it lost the community employment, CE, support workers who used to assist it. The loss of those workers meant Holy Angels had to take on additional staff, at a cost. I know, very clearly, Holy Angels has a serious deficit, but I think the deficit is because it may have leaned considerably on the CE scheme workers in the past, who were absolutely brilliant when it came to maintenance and cleaning, but also when it came to the support of an additional staff member in a room. It was more than ratio, it was a support to the individual.

The Deputy spoke about the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act. That sits under the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. I will not speak to the Minister of State's brief, but I hear clearly what the Deputy is saying, in that we have a deficit when it comes to educational supports for children within education. The Deputy also talked about the 25 trainees and that only for them, children in education may not get the psychological supports they need.

I will refer to my own brief, which is to do with the CDNTs. There are three such teams in County Carlow, with only one psychologist, which is not sufficient by any manner or means. In light of the television programme that was on last night, it is important to say it was very disturbing viewing. I applaud the Deputy for asking this question, because if we do not have psychologists, we cannot complete our assessments of need. That is a considerable issue for us. However, what I have done is to secure the funding of €11.5 million to clear the backlog of in excess of 10,000 children that are waiting for an assessment of need since 2021. The 2019 figure is educational, because I cleared the backlog. It is gone.

I now have the figure of what has happened due to the preliminary team assessment, PTA, and since the court case last year. We have a build-up of assessment of need, especially with regard to children needing an autism assessment. For 200 children to be sitting on the books of any CDNT is quite disturbing, not just for the child and family, but for the child's development. That is why, having secured the funding, it is my ambition to have regional hubs dealing with assessment of need, to the full criteria that will ensure that every child will be seen in a timely fashion. I will answer on my confidence in the HSE next.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I know the Minister of State's commitment. I have worked with her for a few years. I welcome her comments and the fact she said she now has €11.5 million. She spoke about the 200 children in Carlow. I am very much aware of the cases in the county. It worries me when I look at a school such as Holy Angels that excels in the service it has for children with disabilities. Holy Angels had CE scheme workers who were doing much of the work. It is sad we do not have CE schemes anymore and we need to address that. However, we should also be in a position whereby there would be funding for a school such as Holy Angels, with the service it gives, when it needs recruitment.

I know because I am on the board of Holy Angels. I see the work done by the school, the committee and the volunteers. They are constantly fundraising every few months. I know during Covid, everybody was affected and we understand that. We are always saying, as is the Minister of State, that we have to assess children early. Children leaving Holy Angels schools, who are going to a primary school, are not being assessed because there is no one there to assess them. If they are not being assessed when they are going into primary school, we will not know what we can do for them. Therefore, they need to be assessed before they leave Holy Angels school and go to another school. I know how dedicated the Minister of State is. There are huge issues. We were nearly hitting crisis point. I believe her commitment and dedication, as well as the extra funding, will do a lot of good and will help many children and their families. I have seen the stress on parents' faces at public meetings. I see what they are going through. It is affecting their children. They are there to represent their children, do the best for them and give them the best chance in life.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I am aware of the Deputy's involvement in Holy Angels and I have visited the centre. I again refer to the €11.5 million. That money must be spent to ensure children have a proper assessment of need. We have a Disability Act and we need to work within that. Children need timely intervention. It can no longer be words or lip service. We need action. The Deputy asked me a pertinent question on whether I have confidence in the HSE. My confidence in the HSE is shattered. What will restore my confidence is a pragmatic and agile approach to ensure we can step up our regional hubs for assessment to ensure we clear that backlog in a timely fashion. We need to work with private industry that meet the proper regulations and criteria set out by the HSE to ensure all children have one. Sensational Kids Kildare, in the Ceann Comhairle's area, is a fantastic resource. In Cork, we have the Rainbow Club. We need to start working more with organisations that have the skills and ability to help us deliver and meet the needs of children. What we witnessed last night cannot continue. Meetings such as the one the Deputy had last week cannot continue. Meetings such as those I had last year cannot continue. It is time now that I demand that we have a pragmatic, pivoted approach from the HSE to take everybody under the tent to ensure we work with all so that no child is left waiting. The Deputy is correct about timely intervention for every child. We should be ambitious that all assessments are done before children go to school so that when they hit education, it is an educational need and not a health assessment need that is required.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 11.13 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 8 Márta 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.13 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 8 March 2023.