Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Apr 2023

Vol. 1036 No. 5

Finance Bill 2023: Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
In page 3, line 18, after “2023” to insert “and subsequent years”.
-(Deputy Mattie McGrath)

I thank the Deputies from the Rural Independent Group for proposing these amendments. I also thank all the Deputies who contributed to the discussion. We had a detailed discussion on this issue on Committee Stage but I welcome the opportunity to go through the issue again and address the thrust of the amendments proposed by the Rural Independent Group. The amendments seek to extend indefinitely the proposed benefit-in-kind, BIK, reduction of €10,000 to the open market value of the vehicle and the adjusted upper mileage band. Currently these proposed changes have an end date of 31 December this year. The Deputies should be aware that the Government remains committed to the environmental rationale behind the current emissions-based vehicle BIK regime which has been in operation since 1 January. This change was legislated for in the Finance Act 2019. It purposely provided for three years before becoming operational in order to provide a signal in advance to industry and allow for typical lease renewal periods of approximately three years.

Given the current unprecedented inflationary context, however, the Government recognises the difficulties experienced by some people facing BIK increases under the new regime. To that end, the Government has decided to provide temporary changes to BIK for the current year which will help to mitigate some of the increases associated with the new emissions-based calculation for this year. The new subsection, which was inserted on Committee Stage, provides for the application of a universal relief of €10,000 to the open market value of a vehicle in categories A to D, inclusive, in order to reduce the amount of BIK payable. This will also apply to vans and electric vehicles, EVs, but will not apply to cars in emissions category E, which is the highest emissions category. For EVs, the open market value deduction of €10,000 will be in addition to the existing relief of €35,000 that is currently available for battery EVs, meaning that the total relief for 2023 will be €45,000. Additionally the lower mileage limit in the highest mileage band, which is currently 52,001 km, will be reduced by 4,000 km so that the highest mileage band is now entered into at 48,001 km.

The measures will be backdated to 1 January of this year and will remain in place until the end of the year. I want to acknowledge the role of the Revenue Commissioners and thank them and my own officials for the work involved in constructing the amendment we brought forward on Committee Stage. It is important to note that these changes were made solely in the context of the current cost-of-living inflationary challenges to help to mitigate the financial burden for employees driving company cars at this time. I want to make the point that it is important that we retain the signal to companies that the Government is committed to the environmental rationale behind the current emissions-based vehicle BIK regime. It is important that we reaffirm and stand behind that signal. That said, I understand the point that the rural Deputies in particular have made about extending this indefinitely. That is not a commitment I can give to the House tonight. However, as is always the case when it comes to taxation issues this will be examined again in the lead-up to the budget. This particular Bill gives a commitment until the end of the year.

I am reaffirming that we are continuing to stand behind that environmental rationale. We want companies that have not yet made the investment to support the transition to more environmentally-friendly vehicles to do so. Companies can claim an accelerated capital allowance of 100% for energy-efficient equipment, including electric and alternative fuel vehicles. This can be claimed in the first year that the asset is used in the business. When this was first introduced in 2019 it should be acknowledged that many businesses made the transition.

Perhaps some could not afford to. Others may not have fully appreciated the impact this change would have on their employees. This is an issue that affects the employees, but they are dependent on the decisions the company makes about the type of vehicle being provided. The carrot is there through the taxation system to incentivise and support companies to make the decision we want them to make. We acknowledge not all of them are in a position to do so, notwithstanding the supports that are there, but that signal is important and is one I stand behind.

Issues have been raised around a range of matters associated with this, including EV charging points. As colleagues will know, earlier this year the Government launched the new Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure Strategy 2022-2025. It will see €100 million spent on public charging infrastructure between now and the end of 2025. At the moment, we have a situation where the overwhelming majority of charging points, I think about 80%, are at private dwellings. We need more publicly-available infrastructure, including a pool of high-power chargers - every 60 km is what is committed to on our motorway network - as well as home apartment charging, residential neighbourhood charging and so on. That is committed to and the funding is provided now to ensure that can be rolled out.

Deputy Doherty again raised the issue of data. I acknowledge the data we have on the breakdown of benefit-in-kind tax that is paid are very limited. We have asked the Revenue Commissioners to see what they can provide in advance of the budget to support a proper evaluation of the impact of this and other measures, because I believe in evidence-based decision-making and policymaking. The change we made on Committee Stage is a result of the case that has been made by many thousands of workers. I received the emails like all colleagues in this House. I examined them and teased out with the officials what we could do to protect the principle of supporting the environmental rationale while at the same time giving some temporary relief to workers. I think we have achieved that through the changes we have made and, as I have said, I will keep the matter under review, especially in the lead-up to the budget.

I worry when I hear Deputy Ó Cathasaigh wondering where the Government will get extra tax and revenue if it gets rid of-----

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh is gone.

-----diesel and petrol cars in favour of electric cars. Many people would need to know that something is going to happen, if we have a total electric system, that means they will still be paying excise in some form or other to make up the difference or the loss of the taxes the Government is getting already.

People are very disappointed the Government is totally focused on electric cars. There are other ways of reducing emissions with the cars we have, such as liquid petroleum gas, LPG. In 1975 my father bought a demonstration model petrol car that was converted to gas. It was a wonderful car and did 500,000 miles. I am told they are very efficient and effective in reducing emissions. Also, biofuel can be added to diesel cars and will greatly reduce the emissions. This Government is giving no thought at all to other ideas and that is wrong. It is putting all our eggs in one basket. The other side of it is people could afford to do things like this. It would be way more practical and might arrive at the same goal the Government is striving for - not that I believe anyone on this earth can do anything about changing the weather, because there is some ulterior plan we have no control over. One of the things I reject very much is sending rockets to the moon and to Jupiter or wherever else they are going.

I thank the Deputy. We are over time.

I do not see the benefit in that. When you see a flame a mile long underneath it-----

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

-----it does not make any sense in the world to be stopping fellows putting a few sods of turf in the fire.

I will try to stick to planet Earth, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

You might give us back 30 seconds.

I am very surprised at the Minister. I know him a long time. He is standing behind the signal given by the Government in 2019 and supporting a significant change of the fleet. Some people took it up and some did not. Some people could not afford it. Many had no faith in it. The Government obviously has no faith in this now either. It talks about the national children's hospital, but where is it? It talks about the roll-out of broadband, but where is that? The Government is going to have a charging point every 60 km on the motorways. Does it not trust the cars to bring people any further than 60 km? The genie is out of the bottle as far I am concerned, and that is a fact. No one here has talked about the abhorrent, disgusting slave labour in the countries where the materials for the batteries are mined.

In the Congo it is child labour.

The Government has all these green, pious, sanctimonious people saying we must do good for the planet, but what about these poor children? Do they matter? Do their lives matter and is there respect for their human rights and everything else? I am surprised at the Minister. He is standing behind the signal now. What is Eamon Ryan dosing the Cabinet with? What is he giving Cabinet members at the start of meetings or what are they inhaling to be carrying on this codology? The Minister was surprised more people did not take it up. The prices were exorbitant and they could not afford them. Furthermore, they did not want to be going around in search parties looking for the electric cars because the roof light would not even stay on when people are stuck on the side of the road somewhere with not a battery, a horn or a fog light. Nothing can be switched on. Maybe if somebody was smoking they could light their cigarette lighter. I mean the lighter people keep in their pockets and not the one in the car as it would run down the battery. It is codology of the highest order. It is part of the big con and the fear and control mechanism that climate change is on our people and especially our young people. The Government indoctrinates them in schools and then we can look at what is happening to young people in the Congo and many other countries where there is child slave labour. It is immoral, disgusting, reprehensible and against every fibre in my body.

There have been a number of comments about the matter of affordability and there is a real issue, including for companies, with being able to make the transition. That is why it is important we have the data. We must know what we are looking at and whether it is a small number in the hundreds, whether it is in the thousands, or whatever it might be. I therefore welcome that the Minister has engaged with the Revenue and we will see what kind of data we can have.

As the Minister said, these are company cars. If an electric vehicle is purchased, a firm will be able to claim the 100% capital allowance in year 1, which means it writes it off its profits in terms of its tax liability. That is how this works. It reduces a company's liability to the State in that scenario and then the benefit transfers to the employee. However, it is important to state that firms do not have to purchase an electric vehicle to benefit from a reduced benefit-in-kind. There are firms that have company fleets which are in category E and therefore do not benefit from this measure. They are what one would call the diesel-guzzlers. They may be an older car that has been around for ten years or so and does not have any type of new technology in the engine. For a company to move to another diesel car that falls into category B would mean it or its employees benefiting significantly. It is important, therefore, that companies do not have to move to electric vehicles for their employees to get the benefit. Obviously, if companies move to electric vehicles they can get the capital allowances in year 1 instead of over a number of years and their employees will get the maximum benefit, because they will not only get the €10,000 OMV reduction. Up until now there was no benefit-in-kind for employees driving electric vehicles. That will be got rid of over the next number of years and go down from €30,000 to €20,000 to €10,000, but there is an incentive there.

As I said, this is an extension. This is listening to where the concerns were. It needs to be assessed again in September before the budget and let us make an informed decision at that point. It may be the case it needs to be extended again or it may be that it needs to be stepped, but this makes for a sensible proposal at this point in time.

A single 1,000 lb EV battery takes about 5,000 lb of raw material to manufacture.

To transition just our passenger cars to EVs, we need to mine more material over the next 30 years than we have ever mined in human history.

It will be done by the children.

In order to make EVs, we must mine more material than we have ever mined before.

What also comes into account with EVs is that they could not recycle the batteries of old EVs. Then they came out with new technology to upgrade the older cars with the newer batteries but the wiring loom would not take. The wiring loom in the car had to be changed to take the newer battery because the power of the newer battery would set fire to the older EV. These are the EVs they came out with first. I am not against EVs; I am for EVs in their place but they are not fitting into my place and they are not viable for the likes of me or a lot of people around this country because they cannot afford them.

Common sense has to come into this debate. EVs are ideal around the town setting where people are doing low mileage. In the cities like Dublin, people should have EVs because of the number of cars there are here. We should ask people in Dublin if they can afford EVs. They cannot afford them. There are 1.2 million people in Dublin and if we go out and do a survey, we can ask them if they can afford EVs. I asked earlier on how many people in the Cabinet and how many Deputies on the Government benches have made the change to EVs. I did not hear much of a noise coming from the Cabinet. I see other Deputies here today and they did not make the change either and they are the ones who have been roaring from the rooftops about green energy.

As I said earlier, I have no issue with EVs but I have a problem that in my constituency there are few charging points and I do not think this will work. Deputies have been looking at the pros and cons of this. Does the Minister realise that EVs lose 2% of their range each year they are on the road? A battery does 130,000 km to 200,000 km so I will be in deep trouble because I have a relatively new car that probably has over 200,000 km. Deputy Danny Healy-Rae said he has done some 700,000 km.

I have done 780,000 km.

How much is a battery?

A total of €8,000 a battery.

A taxi operator contacted me and other Deputies recently. He had bought a second-hand EV, but the battery went in it. It is costing him thousands of euro to replace it. While we hear about all the positives, most of the people of Cork South-West do not have the €40,000 or €50,000 to purchase the EVs in the first place. If they have it, they do not have the charging points unless we move into Clonakilty or Skibbereen. There are rural peninsulas and areas that I represent and I stand for them today. This needs to be tackled immediately.

I know the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, will be looking for extra taxes and he will get them in the coming weeks. The Government will be reversing the VAT reduction on fuel so that it can take tax and grab as much as possible to push it in around the capital. As we have seen with public transport, the Government has continuously forgotten the people of rural Ireland. The Government has put in extra VAT, carbon tax and everything and all that money is grabbed to put in extra charging points, electric buses and electric dreams around Dublin. All the while, the people of rural Ireland are in the same situation and the people of Sheep's Head, Mizen Head, Clonakilty and Bandon genuinely cannot afford it but are still being crucified with the extra price on fuel. I plead with the Minister to allow our amendment on the reduction in fuel prices to go ahead this evening. I ask the Minister to consider that for the people because Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael politicians will be knocking on their doors in the coming months and they are robbing them at the same time. That will not continue.

The debate has morphed into whether you are for or against EVs. That is not the thrust of the issue we are discussing tonight.

Can people afford them or not? That is the debate.

That is not the issue at hand. The question is whether you agree that the BIK regime should apply differently depending on whether you have a 3 l diesel vehicle or a much more environmentally-friendly vehicle, which does not have to be an EV. That is what the table provides for. We have categories A to E and the more you move towards categories C, D and E, the higher the rate of BIK is. It is not about an EV or nothing.

If you cannot afford it, you are being pushed out. If you cannot afford to change-----

This debate is not about EVs and the amendment brought forward on Committee Stage is not about EVs.

If you cannot afford a more economical vehicle, you are being taxed on it. That is what the Government is saying.

The Deputies have made the debate all about whether somebody is for or completely against EVs and that is not the purpose of the issue. When this change was made back in 2019, many businesses changed the fleets of vehicles they had and they were incentivised to do so. I acknowledge that not all of them were in a position to do so and it was the employees who had to pay an extra price by way of the changes that kicked in-----

-----on 1 January. I refer to extra tax-----

-----in the form of BIK.

That is why I made an intervention, in the interests of fairness.

I looked at the range of examples of how this was impacting individuals. Some of the changes were significant and hurt people at a time when many people are struggling anyway. I acknowledge and accept that and that is why I have made the change. In the amendments, the Deputies are asking for us to sign up to the changes I have made permanently. I am not prepared to do that because it is important that we have an environmental rationale behind the system of BIK charging. That said, I have given a commitment to examine the issue again in the lead-up to the budget.

Does the proposer want to come back in?

I proposed this amendment and I proposed leasú Uimh. 4 freisin and it was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle.

Only one amendment was proposed.

Yes. The Minister has given a commitment and he has gone the green road. I stick to the hard road, the bóthar crua agus díreach. I am not yet convinced that the charging points and the infrastructure are in place. The Minister said the Government looked at it now because the BIK regime came in during 2019 but what about Covid? Many businesses barely survived after Covid. What about the businesses that were hit by the cost-of-living crisis?

I know the Government announced today in a blaze of glory that inflation will be like Wonder Man, that it will diminish again and that we will have copious billions. A journalist told me the Government will have €16 billion to spend yet the Government wants to continue to crucify. Holy Week has just passed when our Lord was crucified on the cross. I hate making that equation but the Government wants to crucify the ordinary people by having them cold, perished and frightened and paying all these punitive taxes. Carbon taxes and all these gimmicks are fine for the cities but they are not for rural Ireland. It is not ready and it does not have the infrastructure.

People have no faith in this Government, the last Government or successive Governments to deliver any major infrastructure projects like the one the Minister mentioned of €100 million to roll out the charge points. Where is the children's hospital? It is down the black hole and we cannot even see it. Where is the broadband? There were jobs for the boys, cronyism and corruption. This will not happen either and there will be many a roll-out before we see this. We will have many a wet and cold day before we see the charging points every 60 km along the motorway. They will be around Dublin and places like that all right. I mention the price. Someone told me last week that he charged his car at a charge point and it cost him €12; something that cost €2.50 or €3 a year and a half ago.

Is that inflation or hyperinflation or what is it? The people can see through the Government's con job. It is nothing short of a con. I am disappointed that the Government will not accept our amendment and we are pushing it to a vote.

How stands the amendment?

We are pressing it.

Amendment put.

Will the Deputies claiming a division please rise in their places?

Deputies Mattie McGrath, Michael Healy-Rae, Danny Healy-Rae, Richard O’Donoghue and Michael Collins rose.

As fewer than ten Members have risen, I declare the amendment defeated. In accordance with Standing Order 82, the names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Amendment declared lost.

With the time permitted for the debate having expired, I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil on this day: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance, and not disposed of, are hereby made to the Bill; that Fourth Stage is hereby completed; and that the Bill is hereby passed." Is that agreed?

Will the Deputies claiming a division please rise?

Deputies Mattie McGrath, Michael Healy-Rae, Danny Healy-Rae, Richard O’Donoghue and Michael Collins rose.

As fewer than ten Members have risen in their places, I declare the question carried. In accordance with Standing Order 82, the names of the Deputies who claimed a division will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn