Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Oct 2023

Vol. 1043 No. 4

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I want to raise with the Tánaiste a long-standing issue that stretches back almost 15 years, namely, the pay dispute involving thousands of section 39, section 10 and section 56 workers who have not had a meaningful pay increase during those 15 years. As I am sure the Tánaiste will agree, merely naming just the section 39, section 56 and section 10 workers does a great disservice to these workers and, indeed, to the people who depend on the services. These workers are on the front line. They provide essential services every day of the week in areas across health, disability, family support, children, care of older persons, homelessness and addiction.

The workers and their trade unions, namely, SIPTU, the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO, and Fórsa, have been campaigning to resolve these pay issues and secure pay parity for years now. They are in a situation where they are being paid the same rate in 2023 as they had been in 2008. The Tánaiste and I know very well that nothing costs the same today as it did in 2008. These vital agencies are experiencing a recruitment and retention crisis. I have seen this for myself, and I am sure the Tánaiste is aware of it.

I recently visited St. Aidan’s Day Care Centre, Gorey. The service there provides overnight, respite, residential and day services for people with intellectual disabilities. The service is cherished by the local community, the service users, their families and the workers who are there but it is losing staff on a daily basis. The centre is losing staff to retail and areas to which the staff do not necessarily want to go to work. These people are trained healthcare professionals. They are losing staff on a daily basis, and they do not know how they will fill the slots on the roster.

As a result of the failure to resolve this dispute, workers in the community and voluntary sector are to commence indefinite strike action from 17 October. This will impact users of services such as Cheshire Ireland, Ability West, CoAction West Cork, Cobh Community Hospital, Daughters of Charity Child and Family Service, Depaul Ireland, Enable Ireland, the Irish Wheelchair Association and many more. I ask the Tánaiste to think of the people who rely on these services. These are children with disabilities and older people. I ask him to think of their families and the impact that losing these vital services will have on the quality of their lives.

I am conscious of the effect this is having on children's disability network teams, CDNTs, in particular. We have discussed many times in this House the impact on children who are unable to get assessments, who are unable to access services and who are unable to access treatments. Families and service users need to be central to any discussions around this strike. If this strike action is not averted by the Government, then the State and the HSE will have to step in to provide these services directly. If the industrial action is not averted and the HSE cannot provide these services, then families will have to take annual leave. They might have to pay for private services if they have the money, and many of them do not. They may have to let their loved ones go without. All of this will have an impact on vulnerable service users, such as children with disabilities and older people. It will also have a huge impact on their families and their loved ones. People wait for years for assessments or for an appointment with a vital therapy service. These are going to be cancelled from 17 October and the families and service users are starting to get very worried about whether there will be a replacement service, as well as about what - if any - planning is being done for a catch-up if they are forced to miss out.

If the Government does not resolve this dispute, then the immediate and ripple impact of the strike action will not leave a single person unaffected. I ask the Tánaiste to please give a commitment that the Government will engage with the workers and their trade unions in a meaningful way and in good faith in order that positive outcomes can be achieved through constructive negotiation and the averting of this industrial action. If the industrial action does go ahead, will the Tánaiste give a commitment that the HSE will step in and provide these vital services?

The Tánaiste

First, I appreciate the Deputy's raising of this issue. I am very well aware of the historical nature of this, particularly in the context of the differentials between public service employees following the restoration of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, cuts and those who are working in section 39 organisations who did not get the same level of restoration. Yet, it is a more complex terrain in terms of the multiplicity of organisations, as well as the scale and size of organisations. Clearly, we do not in any way disagree that this is an issue that needs to be resolved.

I am conscious that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has engaged with the trade unions in relation to this. We understand the staffing and recruitment issues that have arisen because of emerging pay differentials. This is notwithstanding historic allocations in more general terms, such as in disability funding, which has taken place over the last three years and which has been quite significant. Nonetheless, there are significant issues here.

Officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Health, the HSE and Tusla attended a number of engagements at the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, over recent months, along with the trade unions. That process culminated in an offer being made to unions. The offer was in line with those that had been accepted by community and voluntary staff in other sectors. It amounted to an approximately 5% increase in funding for pay, effective from November 2023, with 3% being back-dated to April 2023. A commitment to re-engage with trade union representatives following any further public sector pay agreement was also offered. That offer remains on the table. That offer was not acceptable to the trade union representatives and, subsequently, the decision was taken to take strike action. I hope that strike action can be averted and I urge all sides to revert back to the negotiating table. I say this because industrial action will negatively impact on people who use these vital services. I encourage unions and employers to re-engage. The Department is available to go back into the Workplace Relations Commission. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is conscious of the issue and there is ongoing dialogue with the Department of Health in respect of the overall budget for 2024.

I genuinely believe that, notwithstanding the fact that the process to date has not yielded a resolution, we must deal with this through the industrial relations mechanisms in order to avoid a negative impact on those who use the services. I am very conscious of the issues here. We need a just and fair resolution. We need a just and fair resolution that is sustainable into the future-----

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Yes.

The Tánaiste

-----in respect of future pay agreements. That has to be in an overall context because the trend that has occurred over the last decade has been that the public service pay agreement is first settled and then we enter into discussions with the section 39 organisations. It is my view that the overall framework has to be sustainable into the future for these organisations, because they are providing vital public services. I acknowledge that. Within that framework, there should be mechanisms to try to resolve this. Notwithstanding the complexities, these are statutorily or legally private. They are not public service organisations. That is the point I am making. They vary pretty significantly in size, scale etc.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

They are not public service organisations but they are providing public services. They are doing it on wage rates that are way behind those who are their exact and direct equivalents within the public service. The Tánaiste said it is his hope that the dispute will be resolved, but he could do a little bit more than hope. He could actually be proactive about it, and that is what the families want to see.

Let us bear in mind that these workers do not want to be on strike. That is the last thing they want to do. I know this. I know these workers well. I represented them. They do not want to have to do this. They are doing it because they have no option. The Tánaiste referenced the community sector and that is somewhat disingenuous, if I can say that, because that is not a direct comparison However, there is a direct comparison within the public service, the HSE and the statutory agencies. We know they have a direct comparison. We know that they traditionally have been linked to those organisations and that link was broken. I ask the Tánaiste to first ensure that there is proactive, good-faith engagement at the WRC. That means decision-makers being in the room and if that necessitates officials from the Department of Finance being there, then they should be there.

Second, if this strike goes ahead, is there provision to maintain the service for those families and service users?

The Tánaiste

First, in the context of the use of the word "hope", I believe this issue can be resolved. As recently as Tuesday, officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth engaged with the trade unions on the issue, and there will be further engagement next week. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, has informed me of that. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte is very strongly over this. As far as I am concerned, this is a priority issue that we need to resolve. I have been a strong advocate for the resolution of this issue within government. We all collectively accept the issues but we also acknowledge that this has built up over a decade. The important focus must be on the process. The industrial relations process is the one to resolve this either through the WRC or the Labour Court. In my view we should put our energies together. There is a commitment and a will to try to get this resolved, not just in the short term, as we need a more sustainable framework over the medium to longer term in respect of these organisations which are providing vital services for many people across the country.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Last year, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, said he wanted to halve childcare fees over two budgets. Given that he is the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, with the power to slash fees, there was an assumption that he was serious about that promise to parents. It started out well, with an average 25% reduction last year, but cracks have appeared in the commitment. In June, the Taoiseach cast doubts on whether fees would be cut by 50%. Last month, the Irish Examiner reported the Minister was also wavering on the pledge. Yesterday, the media were again being briefed that it was unlikely the full 50% cut would be delivered. Why do senior Ministers view promises to parents as non-binding? Instead of being focused on cutting fees, Ministers seem more concerned with trying to manage expectations down. Perhaps the Tánaiste could provide some clarity here today. A commitment was given last year. Does that commitment now lie in shreds?

Instead of reneging on promises to parents, the Government should be trying to do more. The Social Democrats have proposed a radical reform which would result in paid parental leave being extended for the first 12 months of a baby's life. This would mean an additional 12 weeks of paid leave, split between parents. Not only that, but we would increase the rate of maternity, paternity, parental and adoptive leave benefit from €262 per week to €350 per week. This is a measure that would make a huge difference to parents who can struggle financially when a new baby is born, especially if their employer does not top up maternity or paternity benefit.

New parents should be entirely focused on spending and enjoying this important time with their babies not worrying about bills. We know that about 45% of women do not receive a top-up from their employer when they take maternity leave. This can leave a huge hole in family finances at a very expensive time. Perhaps this explains why fewer than 50% of fathers take the meagre two weeks of paternity leave that they are entitled to.

Should I wait until the Tánaiste is finished talking?

The Tánaiste

I am listening to Deputy Whitmore.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

When parents are dependent on two incomes to pay rent, a mortgage, soaring energy bills and all the costs associated with having a new baby, they decide that one parent must remain at work. This does not mean that fathers do not want to spend this important time with their newborns, they just cannot afford to.

The Government could do something about that. It could commit and do bigger and better for new parents. Will the Tánaiste honour the commitment to cut childcare fees by a further 25% next week? Will the Government adopt the Social Democrats' proposal to increase paid parental leave to 12 months and increase the benefit to €350 per week?

The Tánaiste

First, I would have thought the Deputy would have been more generous in her commentary in respect of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and childcare generally. Without question, the last two to three years has witnessed a transformation in the scale of funding to childcare, in particular in terms of workers within the childcare sector, when the joint labour committee, JLC, agreement was arrived at, which was accepted by the social partners as a very significant breakthrough, as well as when one adds the fees freeze last year and the allocation which resulted in a 25% reduction. These are very significant progressive decisions the Government has taken and the Minister has initiated and pushed.

We are in a round of budget negotiations now. As Deputy Whitmore is aware, we have tabled an overall budget increase of some €5.5 odd billion in Government expenditure. I believe the Social Democrats have tabled an increase in spending of about €17.4 billion.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

I am not talking about the budget in total, I am talking about the childcare element of it.

The Tánaiste

Through the Chair, the context is very important because there is a huge difference between €5 billion or €6 billion and €17 billion of expenditure, which is what the Social Democrats are proposing. The credibility of that needs examination. I accept that Deputy Whitmore's party is proposing tax hikes of €1 billion to pay for this, and a new tax rate of 43%. That is fair enough. Her party is saying it wants to tax much more to create revenue. What we are saying is that we want to prioritise childcare, which we have done so far in the last two budgets. We have taken a step-by-step approach, with a very significant improvement in terms of reducing fees. I am not going to pre-empt the budget negotiations between the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The bilateral meetings are under way. There is an overall budgetary framework, and the reason I mention that is because it is relevant in terms of the fact that all of the Departments have to be within a particular ceiling of expenditure. We believe that is sustainable and we also want to protect and build for the future of this country in terms of our approach to sustainable funding and finances.

Our commitment to progress in childcare stays but I am not getting into specifics today a week ahead of the budget. I think the Minister is still engaging with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on this and on other issues. We are conscious also that some services have come forward in respect of their perception of the application of the schemes that were introduced last year. The Minister is open to engaging and discussing with people, but by and large it is important to point out that the number of services that have closed so far in 2023 is lower than the numbers that closed in 2021 and 2022. I think we have made substantial progress. It is our commitment to continue to add to that progress and this budget should reflect that.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The Tánaiste can try to muddy the waters as much as he likes but the context that is important here is that the Minister made a commitment to reduce the cost of childcare for parents by 50%. That was the promise and that was the commitment. The question now for the Government is whether it is actually going to meet that commitment. That is the only question the Tánaiste had to answer,"Yes" or "No". In the budget next week will parents be able to rely on the commitment the Minister gave two years ago? Parents need to know what is going to happen next week. As well as that, they also need to know that they can trust these commitments. If a promise is made for a 50% reduction, that should be in place now. It should not be in negotiations and it should not be at the point where discussions are still happening between the Minister and the Minister for Finance. That commitment was made two years ago. The question for the Tánaiste is whether the Government is going to meet the commitment that it made to parents or whether it is going to leave them behind yet again.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Whitmore. The time is up.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

What we have seen is that over successive governments, the role of parents is forgotten-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up. I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

-----and the impact of having a new family is forgotten by the Government. Is the Government going to meet its commitment to reduce childcare costs by 50%? All the Tánaiste has to say is "Yes" or "No".

The Tánaiste

That is an outrageous assertion to make to say that the needs of children have been forgotten by this Government. It does not stack up at all across the full range of measures that we have taken in the last three budgets in respect of childcare more generally but also in terms of support of maternal care leave and so on. We have introduced a whole range of measures. It is not a credible-----

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

"Yes" or "No".

The Tánaiste

Through the Chair, I do not believe the assertion the Deputy just made is a fair or credible one.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

Will the Government meets its commitments, "Yes" or "No"?

The Tánaiste

It defies any realistic understanding. In respect of childcare costs, over the last two years we have met our commitments.

Deputy Jennifer Whitmore

The commitment was to 50%.

The Tánaiste

The more significant commitment is improving the status, pay and conditions of workers, in conjunction with the social partners in terms of a new JLC framework for people working in the childcare sector, which gives sustainability and continuity to the childcare sector in terms of a career pathway. That is key and crucial. In terms of the reduction in childcare costs, parents did feel the fee freeze last year in their pockets. They have said this to me. Probably one of the most significant cuts in childcare costs happened last year. I accept Deputy Whitmore's advocacy for this year.

There are budget negotiations under way. There is a week to go and there will be full clarity in respect of that next week.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Ahead of next Tuesday's budget, trade unionists, pensioners, students, people with disabilities, housing activists and many more will meet on Saturday at 1 p.m. at Parnell Square to march to Leinster House. They will be marching because they are being absolutely crucified with the cost-of-living crisis and the housing and accommodation crisis. Mortgage holders are paying thousands of euro extra in interest. Hundreds of thousands of householders are in arrears with their energy bills. Families are hammered with childcare costs. Renters are paying absolutely unaffordable rents, if they can even find a place to live. All this hardship and suffering is happening at a time when the Government has an unprecedented budget surplus, which is projected to be €16 billion next year, and the country is wealthier than it has ever been. According to the Central Bank, aggregate household wealth stands at over €1 trillion this year. Corporate profits have also nearly quadrupled in the last ten years.

Despite this, in advance of the budget the Government is playing down expectations, saying we cannot protect everybody against the cost-of-living hikes because it would cause inflation. I put it to the Tánaiste ahead of the budget that this is a false and dishonest narrative. First of all, it is not inflationary simply to maintain the value of people's income, it is not inflationary to keep people out of poverty and it is not inflationary to provide affordable housing. Second, the real problem the Government refuses to acknowledge is greedflation, that is, profiteering by the banks, the supermarket chains, the property developers and the corporate landlords. This is the problem. I will take just one example and ask the Tánaiste about it, namely, the inequality in the distribution of wealth. I mentioned that according to the Central Bank there is, for the first time, over €1 trillion in aggregate wealth in the country. The bank also helpfully set out the distribution of that wealth earlier this year. Does the Tánaiste know what it found? It found the richest 10% of people own 54% of all that wealth. This means 10% own €540 billion more than all the rest of society, the other 90%, combined. That is the truth. That is why the Government will not give people what they need to address the suffering, the hardship and the housing crisis. The Government is protecting a tiny few who have all the wealth and all the profits. Will the Government introduce a wealth tax in order to fund the affordable housing we need, address poverty-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----and fund our public services to redistribute the wealth that exists in the country and give it to the many and stop protecting the few who control all that wealth?

The Tánaiste

First of all, I dispute the Deputy's presentation of the facts, or the facts as he puts them and the position he is adopting here. The Government is very committed to protecting people against the cost-of-living increases. Last year we provided €12 billion to cushion the impact of rising prices on households, businesses and farmers. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, which I note the Deputy did not quote, found that once-off measures announced as part of budget 2023, combined with the core increases, insulated most households from rising energy prices last winter. The lowest four income deciles were cushioned against the inflationary spiral last year by the measures we took, namely, the combination of core social protection measures, public service pay agreements, tax relief and the once-off payments. These are ESRI data, not my data. It is our intention in this budget to continue to cushion people because next year, living standards will rise above inflation. Inflation is on a downward trajectory over the next 12 months and when the various measures we will take with pay, tax relief and so on are combined with that, it is our projection living standards will increase.

The Government's commitment is to a fair budget. It is fair to workers. We need to be fair to those who are out there working through the tax measures we will adopt and other supports we can and will provide both in terms of a once-off cost-of-living package married to measures for those on social welfare - protection measures to enable them to come through this winter. There is no question certain prices are high and people are under a lot of pressure.

We have record investment in housing. We have very high revenues coming in. They are tapering a bit. That is not Government cushioning or managing expectations, as the figures speak for themselves with respect to corporation tax. We still have very healthy corporation tax and healthy income tax coming in. These are all signs of a buoyant economy, because we have full employment. I suggest respectfully the measures Deputy Boyd Barrett is proposing more generally in the economy would, over time, undermine the employment story in Ireland. He is anti-enterprise, clearly. He does not believe in a free market economy. He does not believe enterprises should make profit. I am talking even about small- to medium-sized companies.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste, the time is up.

The Tánaiste

Most Irish small- to medium-sized companies want to engage in free trade, but the Deputy is against it. His policies would undermine the enterprise economy-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste, the time is up, please.

The Tánaiste

-----that has resulted in very high employment in the country, and career progression.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What I do not believe is that in one of the wealthiest countries in the world it is acceptable for us to have record numbers of families and, worst of all, children living in homeless accommodation. I do not accept that a whole generation of young people are being crucified with unaffordable rents and can never hope to own their own home. I do not accept that there are now more than 250,000 people in arrears with their energy bills because of energy price hikes. I do not accept that 17% of the population suffer deprivation. I do not accept that workers have lost about 10% of their income in real terms because of cost-of-living hikes while the corporations have seen their profits quadruple. The ESB made €679 million in the first six months of this year, which is double what it earned two years ago. The banks are recording extraordinary profits and as I said figures from the Central Bank show the richest 10% of our population own more wealth than everybody else.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is the Government going to address that inequality? Is it going to use-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy, The time is up, please.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----the wealth that exists in our society to protect working people-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----pensioners, students and the least well-off from the hammering they are getting from the cost-of-living crisis and address the housing disaster?

The Tánaiste

We addressed the cost-of-living issues last year in an unprecedented way and in a way no other government in Europe did, with respect to the scale of the intervention. There were a whole range of measures, double social protection payments and all of that. We spent €12 billion last year alone and we are going to take similar action this year in the form of interventions to protect people, and it is our view that living standards will improve in 2024. The Deputy needs to acknowledge, notwithstanding his different political ideology, which he is entitled to, that we have 2.64 million people working today. Our economy added nearly 90,000 jobs over the past year for a total of more than 500,000 since we entered Government in 2020. The share of people who have jobs is at a record high of 74% with unemployment at an exceptionally low rate of 4.2%. Youth unemployment is the lowest on record and among-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

-----the lowest in the European Union and our population rose by nearly 100,000 people over the year to the end of April 2023.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Tánaiste, the time is up.

The Tánaiste

That is an alternative-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

The Tánaiste

-----and there is much more I could say but we are committed in the budget to protecting people, especially those on the lowest incomes, from the very significant and acknowledged pressures of cost-of-living increases.

An Ceann Comhairle

We move to the Regional Group of Independents and Deputy Fitzpatrick.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

The Interdepartmental Pensions Reform and Taxation group was established to carry out a number of tasks related to pension reform. Its roadmap sets out the need to promote long term pension saving to address income inadequacy, in particular for low-income earners. The main income for a majority of older people is a pension. Last week I had a meeting with the Ministers for Finance and for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform at which I called for a thorough review of tax credits and the social welfare system to ensure that employment and paying into a pension scheme is financially rewarding because at the moment, this is not true.

One of my constituents, aged 61, who came to my clinic last week is barely making ends meet. He has lost his job and is forced to live on a small pension of €1,100 per month, or €275 per week. The issue I have is that after working for 40 years, this man is being punished for paying into a private pension. Let me explain why. This man, who is five years off pension age, applied for a jobseeker's payment while he tries to find a new job. He was offered a flat, qualified adult payment of €366 per week for himself and his wife. However, because he is getting a private pension payment, his jobseeker's payment was means-tested, resulting in a deduction of €269 off the flat, qualified adult rate of €366. This man and woman have to live on €275 from his private pension plus a top-up of only €87 from the Department of Social Protection, a total of €372 per week for two adults to survive. The system is wrong. How can we expect a man and his wife to survive on that? They are already struggling to put food on the table and heat their home. They cannot afford to maintain their house. This is only set to get worse as the winter progresses. The means test needs to be re-evaluated immediately. This couple is only €6 better off by having a private pension than by claiming social welfare. They might as well not have a pension. In fact, they are being penalised for contributing to a pension scheme. They have no savings and no other income. They are expected to live on €366 per week.

Will the Government consider, by way of the finance Bill and the upcoming budget, overturning this means test? It is not fit for purpose. I am talking about people with small pensions; I am not talking about people who are putting hundreds of thousands of euro into pension schemes. Families are coming into me a lot where the husband has worked for 40 years and the wife has looked after the children for the past 30 or 40 years. They have contributed to a pension but the husband has lost his job. Had he not worked for 40 years but claimed social welfare, and had his wife also claimed social welfare, they would be better off by nearly €150 per week. This Government, and the Minister for Finance in particular, has been encouraging people to think about the future and the fact that one cannot really survive on jobseeker's payments or the State pension. It has been telling them that they need to have a private pension. How can I encourage people on small incomes who come to my constituency office to contribute to a private pension when these things are happening?

I have the names and contact details for these people and will give them to the Tánaiste later. I am finding it very hard to look them in the eye. Can he please tell me that something will be done in the budget next week for these people?

The Tánaiste

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and for raising a more general issue, through an individual case that has come to his constituency office, that highlights wider issues in terms of pension entitlements, pension contributions and the jobseeker's allowance. I think the Deputy said that the person is 61 years of age.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Yes.

The Tánaiste

He has worked for 40 years, to be fair. The Department of Social Protection is available to help him in sourcing alternative employment, if that is-----

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

No help-----

The Tánaiste

It is there-----

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

It is not there.

The Tánaiste

It is there and it should be there. I will certainly take the details from the Deputy but it is there and the office exists to try to help people to secure alternative employment. I do not know the background of the means test and the issues that were assessed or not assessed. Normally the assessment involves the household's income, savings, shares, investments or property, apart from a person's home. The Deputy has made it clear that the person has no savings.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Nothing.

The Tánaiste

I will revert to the Minister for Social Protection and I ask the Deputy to send me on the details so the case can be examined more closely. I cannot discuss individual cases on the floor of the House. I do not know the full background to it but, obviously, the Government is anxious to incentivise people to work, in the first instance, but also to ensure that there would be basic amounts available to enable people to survive. The Deputy's basic point is that the private pension is militating against the person getting a decent jobseeker's allowance payment. That is the key point he is making here. That may have something to do with the thresholds or other factors of which I am not aware in respect of the details of the case itself. Nonetheless, if the Deputy can send me on the details, I will certainly pursue it. If there are policy implications, we can pursue those in the budgetary context or through the social welfare Bill arising from the budget.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

I find the Minister for Finance very approachable and he is a very good Minister but I want to relay the facts of this case again. This man has worked for 40 years. He is 61 years old and his wife is 60. He worked for 40 years and she stayed at home to mind their children. He contributed towards a small pension, amounting to approximately €270 per week. When he applied for jobseeker's payment because he is looking for a job, the Department offered him €97 on top of his pension, giving him a total of €366. That does not seem right.

The Tánaiste

Did he get jobseeker's benefit?

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

We are all getting older. The Government is encouraging people to contribute to pension schemes and they are doing so. However, in this case, the family would have been better off not working. If the woman was getting a social welfare payment and her husband was also getting one, they would be getting nearly €500 per week. He has contributed for the past 40 years but he has lost his job. When they sat in my office last Friday, I did not believe them but when I got on to the Department of Social Protection, I found out that the facts were true. That is the way it is. The Government wants people to contribute to pension schemes but if they are made redundant and draw down that pension, it is means-tested. I could understand this if they were getting €500 or €1,000 per week in pension payments but they are not; they are only getting a small payment. Their family is reared. They are afraid that if something breaks down in their house, they will not be able to afford to fix it. They were embarrassed, to be honest, when they came in to see me, even though I know them pretty well. They were embarrassed to come in to see me to tell me about their problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is up Deputy, please.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

The Minister for Finance must acknowledge that there is something seriously wrong here.

The Tánaiste

I presume he would have received jobseeker's benefit for nine months.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

I am talking about the present.

The Tánaiste

He would have gotten nine months of jobseeker's benefit when he became unemployed, which would have been a higher payment, based on his contributions, than the jobseeker's allowance. I presume the nine-month period has elapsed and now he is on jobseeker's allowance. Exceptional needs payments are available if any particular issues arise but again, I do not have the background to the case. The Minister has been looking at options in terms of broader pension reforms and PRSI treatment but that would potentially involve increasing PRSI over time with a view to lengthening the period a person would be in receipt of jobseeker's benefit and also increasing the level of benefit to more closely approximate the salary the person had been earning prior to being rendered unemployed. Reforms are required but they have significant resource implications. The Minister has been examining that issue, which was also an issue in the past. Historically, if someone was unemployed, he or she might have gotten up to two thirds or 60% of his or her wage back in the day. That was changed and reformed. The balance has always been around job incentivisation but we learned from Covid that people can lose their jobs through no fault of their own-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you Tánaiste, we are over time.

The Tánaiste

-----and, therefore, they need a cushion to get them through difficult periods. Again, I thank the Deputy for raising this matter.