Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Nov 2023

Vol. 1045 No. 4

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Mortgage Resolution Processes

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue again and I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to respond.

I brought this to the attention of the House some days ago. It still goes on. I alert the House about the degree to which lending agencies, namely investment funds, otherwise known as vulture funds, and some of the standard banks, are hustling borrowers into hasty decisions and are frightening borrowers. There is a clear indication of a resolute approach by the lending institutions, regardless of the circumstances that might have prevailed.

In recent years in this House we listened to good advice, again and again, that if borrowers tried to pay as much as they could, they would always receive fair treatment. I know of several cases, as does everyone else in this House, where the borrowers made every effort to make the highest possible payment over eight, nine or ten years and did so without fail every month. That is all being ignored now. The lending institutions are making every effort to secure the house or property involved and to make sure there is a forced sale. The laughable thing about it is that they call it an agreed sale. A lot of pressure is being put on. It is not an agreed sale. It is a forced sale. The matter involves many families who are disadvantaged, perhaps by virtue of their health or perhaps there are children with special needs in the household. That does not in any way influence the lending institutions. They want to go forward and suppress borrowers to the extent that they are frightened into making whatever payments or walking away. In the current housing crisis, the chances of such families being housed in the near future are slim to none.

It is time again that the Central Bank, which has already spoken about this, is informed that the lending institutions are not observing the rules it laid down. It was a pillar of the understanding reached many years ago that the Central Bank would control those lenders that were not originally under the control of the Central Bank including the unauthorised third parties that came into the marketplace. I raise it again. I named some of them on the last occasion, such as Pepper Advantage Ireland and Start Mortgages. It still goes on. As long as it continues, the reign of terror will continue to have a huge impact on the people of this country who found themselves in an indebted position.

In most cases, these mortgages were sold on one, two, three and up to five times to other independent institutions, sometimes in a bundle, sometimes on their own. There is a variation between those deemed to be better and those deemed to be worse. One way or another, it falls to us now to remind them that the banking institutions were salvaged by the people of this country and they took the right decision to ensure the country survived. It is now time for the lending institutions that are circumventing the regulations to some extent to realise that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. They should think about where they came from and the support they got. I hope they will give the same chance to the borrowers.

Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Niall Collins)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter.

The Government is acutely aware of the pressure that the rising interest rate environment may have on borrowers. In light of this, the Minister convened a meeting with lenders active in the mortgage market on 31 August. The Central Bank of Ireland, the Insolvency Service of Ireland, the Citizens Information Board and the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, also attended. Following this meeting, on 6 September, the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland, BPFI, launched the second phase of its dealing with debt campaign to highlight new and existing supports available for mortgage customers.

One of the new initiatives to which I and the Minister draw the Deputy's attention is the work between credit servicing firms and MABS on a streamlined customer engagement framework to accelerate the agreement of sustainable repayment plans for customers in financial difficulty. The consumer protection framework provides the same protections for borrowers regardless of the regulated entity with whom they are dealing, be that a bank, retail credit firm, RCF, or credit servicing firm, CSF. All these regulated entities must be authorised and supervised by the Central Bank and are subject to the full suite of relevant regulatory requirements and financial services legislation, including the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, CCMA. A broad range of measures are in place to protect mortgage holders who are experiencing difficulty with their repayments. The CCMA outlines how a lender must act if a borrower is in or facing mortgage arrears. The code sets out the process entities must follow when borrowers are experiencing difficulties with their mortgage payments. Due regard must be given to the fact that each case is unique and needs to be considered on its own merits.

Regulated entities must explore all the options for alternative repayment arrangements to determine which arrangement, if any, is appropriate and sustainable for a distressed borrower’s individual circumstances. The range of sustainable solutions being offered to customers has expanded significantly, including the use of new alternative payment arrangements, mortgage-to-rent and personal insolvency arrangements. The CCMA provides for an appeals mechanism, including where the entity declines to offer an alternative payment arrangement, where the borrower is not willing to enter into the alternative payment arrangement offered or where the entity classifies the borrower as not co-operating. Appeals can ultimately be referred to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman. The code of conduct on mortgage arrears must be complied with under the law and the Central Bank has the power to take enforcement action against any regulated entity that does not act in compliance with the code.

The Central Bank continues to supervise compliance with the code and will investigate any issues that arise, including patterns of behaviour that suggest the code process is not being followed. Under the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, the lender must contact the consumer about their mortgage arrears in a timely, clear and consumer-friendly manner; get information from the consumer about their financial situation; assess whether a suitable alternative repayment arrangement can be made; and resolve the case by offering an alternative repayment arrangement or not. The code of conduct on mortgage arrears has been designed to protect consumers and regulated lenders are legally obliged to comply with it. The code requires lenders to provide dedicated and specially trained staff in their arrears support unit to manage cases. This includes having any meetings with customers in private and referring them to their online or hard-copy information. Lenders must also follow the mortgage arrears resolution process that sets out how lenders must communicate with consumers and assess their situation with the aim of coming to a resolution. It includes having an appeals process in place in order that consumers can appeal certain decisions of their lender.

This is a robust framework that binds all regulated lenders. If the Deputy has evidence that firms are pursuing borrowers contrary to the provisions of the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, the Central Bank of Ireland will consider any such information as part of its supervisory duties.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply. A typical example of some of the things that are happening at present is that the lender will encourage the submission of a proposal to make payments or bring about a resolution and, invariably, that will have to be referred to a credit committee, which will reject it on the basis it is not realistic or sustainable. The lending institution, therefore, makes the decision to exclude the customer from the possibility of attempting to resolve the difficulty that has arisen.

As I said, there are some circumstances surrounding individual cases that are very testing, such as serious health conditions, which need to be taken into account and should be taken into account. There are also serious circumstances in respect of death, whether the death of a partner or whatever the case may be, and there are cases where families have split up, with one partner having gone in one direction. It is not at all unusual for the lending institution to settle with one partner, to the exclusion of the other, and then to come back at the end of the day and say the other partner is responsible for the whole lot.

That is fine and it sounds great, and it strikes terror into the hearts of borrowers, but I want to say this. It is very seldom that the borrower has not engaged. In fact, these borrowers engaged to the extent they were exhausted, and they came to the conclusion that every proposal they made was going to rejected in any event. Now the attitude has become more aggressive and abrupt, and there is a clear indication that there is an intention on the part of customer service agents and subsequent lenders to enforce the law, that is, to repossess the property, sell it from under the feet of the borrower in the shortest possible term and get a hold of the assets at a time when the value of the assets is much higher than it was some years previously.

Deputy Niall Collins

I again thank the Deputy for raising the issue. In the first instance, I would encourage any person who is experiencing a repayment difficulty, or who has any other genuine concern in respect of their mortgage, to contact their mortgage creditor to discuss the matter. Of course, it is also essential that, in turn, these Central Bank-regulated entities, irrespective of whether they are a bank, a retail credit or a credit servicing firm, constructively engage with their borrowers to address any legitimate concern raised and act fairly in the interest of their customers. That is what lenders are required to do under the Central Bank consumer protection framework and it is the minimum standard with which Central Bank-regulated firms are expected to comply.

The Deputy will be interested to know that the Minister for Finance has tasked officials with reviewing the current mortgage arrears framework and an interdepartmental group has been established to review the mortgage arrears framework. The mortgage arrears group comprises representation from the Departments of Finance, Justice, Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Social Protection. The focus of the group will be to consider the impact of the mortgage arrears framework and the current resolution options among the agencies and bodies, and recommend refinements and improvements to better address the economic and social impact of mortgage arrears. The mortgage arrears group has commenced its work and will report on its review during the second quarter of 2024.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I thank the Minister of State.

Dental Services

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I have been made aware of a crisis in the public dental service. Along with others, the Irish Dental Association has been calling for additional funding and resources for many years. There are massive issues with the public care system and our nation's dental health is suffering. I met the HSE chief last week and he told me he had specifically omitted dentists from the moratorium. Active recruitment is ongoing, therefore, but there are not enough dentists to fill the roles. We really have to have a focused discussion on this and find a solution.

In County Carlow, I have been talking to representatives of many primary schools, where there are big issues with children being assessed. Teachers at one school told me that the children there have never had a referral to the public dentist. The dental clinic in Carlow is closed for refurbishment and just one dentist covers the entire county, with just two clinics, in Tullow and Bagenalstown, available due to the pandemic. I understand that the pandemic has played a huge role in this, but children who would normally be seen in second and sixth class are now not being seen until fourth class and second year of secondary school, and that is significant. They are missing their check-ups at essential dental-development milestones, and many of the children age out of the primary school model of care, so they are dependent on their parents' means to get them to a dentist and pay for it.

In some dental practices in Carlow, it is very hard even for someone with a medical card to get signed up with a practice because a large portion of dental practices are simply refusing to sign up new patients with a medical card. Moreover, as we all know, a significant number of contracted dentists throughout the country have withdrawn from the dental treatment service scheme, as the Minister of State will be aware. I recently sought by parliamentary question a list of those dentists in Carlow still in the scheme in order that if someone came into my clinic, I could tell them which dentists were available. That was very hard because, according to the reply, there is just one such dentist in Carlow.

Good dental hygiene is essential for everyone. Most oral health conditions are largely preventable and can be treated if caught at an early stage, but we are not getting that.

More people I talk to tell me they travel abroad for dental care because they feel our system is broken. That is worrying. I wish to ask about the existing medical card entitlements, which are limited in what a patient is entitled to, if they can even find a dentist. The area of orthodontic care is expensive in private practice. The medical card programme only covers patients with front tooth problems. It does not cover molars, some of the most important teeth in a person's mouth, used particularly for chewing food. There are huge issues in the system, which is worrying. It is across the country. We must make sure young children are being assessed at an early age in primary schools. That is crucially important.

Deputy Niall Collins

I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. I thank Deputy Murnane O'Connor for the opportunity to address the issue of the expansion of dental care for patients and increased fees for dental contractors. The dental treatment service scheme, DTSS, provides dental care free of charge to medical card holders aged 16 and over. Services available annually and on demand include an examination covering preventative advice, two fillings, emergency extractions and a scale and polish. More complex care such as dentures and a broader range of treatments for patients with additional needs and high-risk patients are available subject to HSE approval.

In May 2022, the Minister for Health approved measures providing for increased preventative care and increasing the fees paid to dentists for most treatment items by 40% to 60%. Fees paid to dentists for DTSS care are aligned with other European countries which provide comparable public dental care. The number of patients and treatments has been increasing since the measures were introduced. Comparing the claims made by DTSS contractors nationally from January to October 2023, 142,450 additional treatments have been provided under the scheme, with more than 25,600 extra unique patients treated compared with the same period last year.

However, the Minister is aware that medical card holders in some areas continue to have difficulty accessing care. Where access to a dentist is difficult, the local HSE service will make lists of DTSS contractors available to medical card holders. In exceptional circumstances, the HSE assists patients to access emergency dental treatment by directly contacting private contractors or arranging treatment to be provided by HSE-employed dentists. Additional funding was made available to HSE this year to provide this care when required.

For children, the HSE public dental service provides screening and necessary treatment at ages corresponding to second class, sixth class, and, subject to capacity, fourth class. Emergency care is also provided for children up to 16 years of age and for those with complex and additional needs. The HSE is continuing to restore dental screening and treatment to children up to 16 years of age by prioritising clinical treatment and patient groups and reallocating clinical resources according to greatest need.

In the longer term, the Minister for Health recognises that oral healthcare for all ages needs to be modernised in line with best international evidence and practice, as set out in the national oral health policy, Smile agus Sláinte. The work is already under way for children aged from birth to seven years using the €4.75 million funding awarded in budget 2023. The modernised services will be person-centred, prevention-focused and available locally in line with the vision set out under Sláintecare.

The Minister has supported the HSE to develop clinical leadership and to reform leadership roles to progress implementation of the policy this year. The HSE recently appointed a strategic reform lead to drive policy implementation across the organisation. This will enable the HSE to move forward in 2024 with developing new services for both adults and children in line with the policy.

Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the Minister of State. I welcome the appointment of a strategic reform lead to drive policy. However, there is a situation in which children are going to secondary school and have not been assessed. It is a huge issue. Some parents do not have the money to bring their children to a private dentist and there is only one dentist in Carlow who covers the public scheme. Carlow in the last census had a population of more than 62,000 and it is growing. We are delighted it is growing but with that are challenges. I know the Minister of State will go back to the Minister for Health and highlight my concerns that we need to make sure children are seen in primary schools when they are meant to be seen.

Another issue came up about medical card and what it will cover when you go to the dentist. That must be looked at too. I welcome that the system is being looked at. It needs to be changed. Another area which needs to be looked at and totally reformed is the dental tax relief scheme, the MED 2 form, to increase tax relief to a minimum of 30%, expanding access to treatments and reliefs available and making applying more simple and related to the ongoing health of patients, including extractions, fillings and hygiene treatments.

Separately, many people have come to me about the tax Acts, which have not been consolidated since 1997. We must take this into account because of the challenges. We saw what happened over the past few years. It has been 26 years since this was looked at. I ask that that be looked at. I know the Minister of State is aware, as is the Minister for Health, that there are huge challenges across all of the health sector at the moment. Families are coming to me with children in primary school and they cannot access a dentist through the public health system. I know that will be looked into. Will the Minister of State come back to me with answers about it? I would really appreciate it.

Deputy Niall Collins

I have listened to the Deputy and colleagues in the Chamber and have taken onboard the points made. I assure the Deputy that addressing access to dental care, including for adult medical card holders, is a top priority for the Minister and the Government. The Minister made substantial additional investment in oral healthcare services both in 2022 and 2023. Fundamental reforms are also being progressed through the implementation of the national oral health policy, for which funding has been provided this year. The policy sets out the vision for the future of oral healthcare services. While it will take a number of years to bring to complete fruition, there will be an early and continued emphasis on addressing current access issues. The policy fundamentally aspires that all Irish people will have their own dental home where they build a life-long relationship with a local dental practice or practices of their choosing for continuity of care from birth to old age. The policy has two goals: to provide supports to enable every individual to achieve their personal best oral health; and to improve access to dental care in an equitable and sustainable manner, enabling vulnerable groups to improve their oral health. I am confident that by working together with the dental profession and all stakeholders, the goals of the policy will be met.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh)

With respect to Topical Issue No. 3, I am afraid there is no Minister to take it. I will have to refer this to the Ceann Comhairle's office and ask him to take the submission of the Deputies' Topical Issue into consideration, be it tomorrow or Thursday. Currently, there is no Minister to take their Topical Issue.

Deputy Bríd Smith

With all due respect to An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, this is not aimed at him at all but this is very disrespectful to us. Deputy Gino Kenny and I came from a meeting in Cherry Orchard where there was a large protest by families about this urgent and distressing move, which is to take place from the hospital there to a centre in Clondalkin in the next few weeks. We came from that meeting and have sat in the campus here for the last three hours. Obviously, one is always busy and has loads to do but at 10.30 a.m. today, we got an email to say it would be taken. Now, there is nobody to take it. That is totally disrespectful not just to the Deputies here but to those families and residents who face a huge challenge. We are really disgusted.

I certainly cannot come back in the morning because I have other arrangements made for meetings and to deal with other business. This really is not on. If it is going to be rescheduled, it should definitely happen and the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Butler, must be here because she has to answer the questions. Does Deputy Kenny want it to go ahead in the morning? I certainly do not.

Deputy Gino Kenny

I have to attend the health committee. It is not going to be possible.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The Deputy has a meeting of the health committee to attend.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh)

As the Deputy will understand, I am not in a position to make a commitment one way or another from where I am currently sitting. I will speak to the Office of the Ceann Comhairle. I agree with her sentiments that it is unacceptable.

Deputy Bríd Smith

I ask the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach to emphasise to the Ceann Comhairle that this is not just about Deputies being annoyed about having to hang around until 10.30 p.m.; it is the issue itself and the urgency with which it has to be heard in the House for all of the families and residents involved.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh)

I will certainly undertake to do that.

Deputy Bríd Smith

Go raibh maith agat.

Flood Risk Management

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Again, with no disrespect to the Minister of State, I find myself in the same position. Given the urgency of this matter, I will go ahead with it but we understood that if the Minister or Minister of State was not available, that would be made known to us and we would have a choice. None of that has happened in my case.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh)

I have made the same point, with our positions reversed.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I understand that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh)

I will reiterate that point to the Ceann Comhairle.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I want to say this for the record. I will take some little blame in regard to the phrasing of this question, which is to discuss the flooding in Galway and the damage it has caused to homes and businesses. The question was submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, as all my questions regarding Galway flood defences have been.

I would say there has been a not overly-friendly interaction in the course of the day with my office regarding this to clarify what it was we wanted. We wanted an update on flood defences, and the Department is aware that there is a library of questions following up on this. We were told it would go to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment because the word "business" is in the question. It was then suggested that we change the wording. That was at 6 p.m., after the Ceann Comhairle had chosen this question. It is not within my remit to change questions that have been submitted. I am using my time to explain this and the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, who is from a completely different Department, is here and will read out a script. I will also take this matter up with the Ceann Comhairle.

As the Minister of State is aware from the scenes on television and discussions on radio, Galway is just another area that has flooded in the past number of months, from Midleton in the south to Newry in the North. I want to know what is available. I have received answers regarding the schemes that the Minister of State will, I presume, tell me about, namely the two business schemes, including the enhanced business scheme, and the social welfare payments available. I am able to read and understand that.

The purpose of my question was the Coirib go Cósta remedial and flood defence works. The preliminary total cost of the project was €9.5 million. This is further to the catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme which started in 2012 and which we all know about. That is over 11 years ago. Following that, a plan and cost were produced for the project. The project aims to protect 940 properties in Long Walk, Spanish Arch, Eglinton Canal, Merchants Quay, Raven Terrace, Salthill and Claddagh. Almost all of those areas were flooded on Sunday and Monday, including my office in Flood Street which is named after a family rather than telling us that it floods.

From January 2023 onwards, I have asked for an update on this. I have used my time to give the background to this. I have been told at each stage that there will be a report. Nothing has come so far in 2023. The original CFRAM underestimated what we faced in terms of climate change and refers to an event every 100 years, but there are now a few events within a number of months. Everything is out of date. I understand the complexity of the situation, but what I cannot accept is the lack of an explanation to us setting out the reasons for the delay and updating us on precisely what is going on. I have a library of questions and responses. In the meantime, Galway is under floodwater again.

Deputy Niall Collins

I thank the Deputy. I can appreciate her frustration. I am not in a position, based on what I have before me, to give her any specific answer or comfort in regard to the issue she has raised with particular reference to Galway and the issues people there are enduring. More generally, I have been given an update to give her, of which she is aware, regarding the supports which the Government has made available.

The Government today extended the Government’s emergency business flooding schemes to cover small businesses, sports clubs and community and voluntary organisations affected by Storm Debi earlier this week. The schemes are designed to assist businesses unable to secure flood insurance. The Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment asked the Government to extend the emergency business flooding schemes to the businesses affected by Storm Debi in County Galway. An enhanced emergency business flooding scheme was launched in October to help businesses affected by recent flooding in counties Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Kilkenny, Wexford and Louth. This is in addition to the existing emergency business flooding scheme. These schemes provide urgent assistance to businesses that were unable, through no fault of their own, to get insurance to help with the costs of repairing the damage caused by flooding.

As with similar weather events in the past, the Irish Red Cross will administer and make payments under the schemes on behalf of the Department. The schemes provide humanitarian support contributions towards the costs of returning small businesses and sporting, voluntary and community premises to their pre-flood condition, including the replacement of flooring, fixtures and fittings and damaged stocks where relevant. Application forms for support will be available on the Irish Red Cross website today and the closing date for applications is 15 December.

The standard emergency business flooding scheme has two stages. The first stage will commence immediately and provide a contribution of up to €5,000 depending on the scale of damage incurred. The intention is to process payments as fast as possible. The second stage allows businesses that have incurred significant damages to apply for additional financial support, following an assessment by the Irish Red Cross. The total level of support available for both stages combined will be capped at €20,000. However, due to the exceptional severity of the flooding in some areas, the Government agreed to activate an enhanced emergency business flooding scheme that provides higher levels of financial support for businesses that have been severely affected in certain locations. Again, there are two stages and the maximum payment under this scheme will be capped at €100,000 and require a more detailed assessment of the losses incurred.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I thank the Minister of State for what he is telling me. I thank the Government for the schemes it is providing. Presumably, all of the businesses and homes in Galway that have been affected will be able to avail of those schemes, including Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Galway city, Claddagh, Salthill and Long Walk. I should be talking to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We should be looking at flood defences because in the meantime there will be interim protection measures and once-off payments will have to continue for longer because flood defence mechanisms have not been provided.

Regarding Coirib go Cósta, over a year has passed since the last update was posted on the website. Almost two and a half years have passed since the first and only public consultation took place. The revised programme was expected in the first quarter of 2023. Almost eight months have passed since then and we still have no date.

We are told that the consultants were appointed more than three years ago in 2020. This is bordering on pathetic, given the enormity of the challenges we are facing in providing flood defences in Galway. Departments are playing games with one another. I have the greatest of respect for the departmental staff, who work extremely hard, but something is wrong somewhere with management. There is a detachment. All day today, games were being played about who was responsible for answering this basic question while the Minister of State was put in a position to tell me something that I could easily have read otherwise and that was repeated a number of times on Leaders' Questions, the Order of Business and so on. Eleven years on from when this process started and after serious flooding on Sunday and Monday and in 2018, I still have no idea and we are no wiser or no more informed about essential flood defences in Galway.

I thank the Chair for bearing with me.

Deputy Niall Collins

I will convey the Deputy's frustration to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and to the Minister and Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. I will convey to them what the Deputy has said about the length of time this has taken and I will ask them to give her a full response.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar athló ar 10.42 p.m. go dtí 9.12 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 15 Samhain 2023.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.42 p.m. until 9.12 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 November 2023.