Vol. 1047 No. 1
I move the following Supplementary Estimate:
Vote 26 - Education (Supplementary Estimate)
That a supplementary sum not exceeding €795,154,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 2023, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, for certain services administered by that Office, and for the payments of certain grants.
1. Deputy Alan Dillon asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [50921/23]
2. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52315/23]
3. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52324/23]
4. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52068/23]
5. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52546/23]
6. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52547/23]
7. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52548/23]
8. Deputy Aindrias Moynihan asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52549/23]
9. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52550/23]
10. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [52583/23]
11. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [53587/23]
12. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [53590/23]
13. Deputy Brian Leddin asked the Taoiseach if he will provide and update on the programme for Government. [53638/23]
14. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh asked the Taoiseach if he will provide an update on the programme for Government. [53901/23]
Tógfaidh mé Ceisteanna Uimh 1 go 14, le chéile.
The Government is making good progress in implementing the programme for Government. We led Ireland through the pandemic, saving lives and livelihoods. Over 500,000 more people are at work today than on the day the Government took office, and we are now at full employment. We are implementing far-reaching reforms like sick pay, the living wage, and auto-enrolment so that every worker has a pension, and we are setting asie surplus revenues for future investment. This is very much in line with the programme for Government objective that demands our economy recovers in a way that is fair and balanced, leaves no one behind, and is future-proofed against shocks.
Individual commitments in the programme for Government are advanced through the co-ordinating mechanisms of the Cabinet committee structure. The ten Cabinet committees established by the Government reflect the core policy areas that are set out in the programme. The strategy statements of all Departments reflect the national priorities outlined in the programme for Government. The Department of the Taoiseach is continuing to help advance the programme's commitments in the following significant policy areas: the first involves the implementation of the Housing for All strategy, including additional initiatives as necessary, to advance crucial housing related commitments; second is the continued engagement at EU and international level on the situation in the Middle East, including by calling for full observance of international law by all parties working to build consensus at EU level to take a more proactive approach in assisting a negotiated two-state solution and lasting peace process, and increased funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees or UNRWA; third is the engagement with EU leaders to advance high-level objectives in the programme for Government, in particular, economic and competitiveness issues, energy security, external relations including with the UK, as well as continuing our strong collective EU response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine; fourth is the pursuit of our international commitments, including strengthening our relationship with the US, and implementing the UN sustainable development goals; fifth is the advancement of the Government’s commitments on a shared island; sixth is ensuring the implementation of the New Decade, New Approach deal commitments, working with the relevant Departments, North and South, in advancing these goals, strengthening British-Irish relations, including with London, and the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland. It also includes the implementation of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021, and the Government’s climate action plan; advancements in Sláintecare, improving access, outcomes and affordability for patients by increasing the capacity and effectiveness of the workforce, infrastructure and provision of patient care; oversight of the implementation of the third domestic, sexual and gender-based violence strategy; oversight of the implementation of A Policing Service for our Future, the Government’s plan to implement the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland through the policing reform implementation programme office of the Department; and the development of the well-being framework for Ireland and its integration into the policymaking and budgetary systems. It also involves the publication of Harnessing Digital - The Digital Ireland Framework in February 2022, and ongoing implementation to drive and enable the digital transition across the economy and society, with a first progress report in December 2022; progressing four citizens’ assemblies on a Dublin directly elected mayor and local government structures, biodiversity loss, drugs use, and the future of education; and finally, the establishment of the child poverty and well-being programme office in the Department of the Taoiseach to honour commitments identified in the programme for Government that will have the greatest impact on the lives of children who experience poverty and disadvantage.
There are ten contributors so they each have up to one minute.
I would like to address a topic outlined in the programme for Government that pertains to the mental health services for children and adolescents. Only recently, the Fine Gael parliamentary party members engaged with the organisation Families for Reform of CAMHS, where we had the opportunity to listen to some profoundly distressing stories concerning the impact of the HSE on children and adolescent mental services, CAMHS, units on children nationwide. A recent report concerning the CAMHS within community healthcare organisation, CHO 2, encompassing counties Mayo, Galway and Roscommon, highlighted earlier this year that 311 children and young individuals are awaiting services. This issue of staffing levels and staff retention poses a significant risk. Families for Reform of CAMHS has identified ten distinctive reforms for which it is advocating. First and foremost of these reforms is the allocation of funding to ensure the provision of safe, effective and child-centred services. Moving forward, I ask that the Taoiseach give serious consideration to CAMHS reform.
There are serious concerns for jobs in Ballincollig, County Cork, after US corporation, Broadcom, acquired the semiconductor company VMWare, which employs 1,000 people in the town. Broadcom moved quickly to implement redundancies across the United States after its $69 billion takeover. It has been in correspondence with the Ballincollig workforce, including stating that it was proposing some organisational changes and possible redundancies. There is a six-week review under way; I understand this will be completed in mid-January. Will the Taoiseach ensure the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, engages with the new owners and impresses upon them that each and every one of those jobs is important to the workers and their families, the town of Ballincollig and the wider community in Cork city?
Once again, there are 12 contributors so I will have to keep Deputies to the time.
In the past number of years, Aontú has introduced two animal welfare Bills. One related to puppy farms and the second to the stealing of pets from families. The reason we did so is because the entire animal welfare space in this country is in a bad place; so much so, that dog charities are currently at breaking point. The responsibility for animal welfare is split between four different Departments currently and puppy farms are churning out 30,000 puppies on an annual basis in this State. When we brought forward our Bills, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, said the Government would bring about a Bill and there was no need for ours but that was more than 18 months ago at this stage. Where is the Government's response to the animal welfare issues that are experienced in every county? Where is the Bill and when will it come before the Dáil?
I raise again the issue of rare diseases. While I welcome much of the progress we have achieved in the past two years in government, particularly with the number of drugs to which people have access - more than 80 at this stage, which is great progress - I still feel somewhat disappointed that next year's budget did not contain a stand-alone budget for new drugs for rare diseases. I know the savings from the main drugs budget will be diverted towards this but I have to express that initial disappointment. The programme for Government asks that we establish a national genetics and genomics medicine network and states that we would support the medical genetics service. There is much to be lauded and much progress made but, at the same time, we are still behind the curve in many situations and there is an awful lot more work to do regarding our overall access to drugs. At the moment, we are at risk of losing our European reference networks, ERNs, as well. I would appreciate if the Taoiseach could comment on this matter.
The Taoiseach may recall that there was a commitment in the programme for Government in 2020 to provide additional supports for SMEs and also to scale up Microfinance Ireland so it could support greater numbers of small businesses and start-ups in accessing finance.
We all know that energy costs are killing some businesses. Small enterprises in hospitality and small retail businesses are facing particular problems and challenges at present. I spoke to one business owner at the weekend and that businessperson told me that the business is going very well, with good turnover, but costs are a problem. Some are Government-related costs, and there is a particular issue with energy costs. Alongside that, in my region, Ulster Bank always had a good presence. Since its exit from the Irish market, businesses and individuals have had to change banks. They are not getting the same credit facilities they had with Ulster Bank. That is another problem facing small enterprises, particularly in the Border region.
In the programme for Government a commitment was given to end direct provision during the lifetime of this Government. Obviously, that commitment was made before the Ukrainian war and is not something we will be able to achieve. It is very important, however, that the State provides shelter that is safe, secure and warm for people seeking international protection. In light of the fact that we are unable to provide an end to direct provision, can we commit to ensure that when people come here seeking international protection, their applications will be dealt with in a timely fashion in order that they can go on to live a full, integrated life in our country? Also, when the Taoiseach talks about "slowing the flow" of people coming to Ireland, is it his opinion that some of the benefits being offered will be changed and aligned with supports that are offered in other European countries?
In the programme for Government there was a commitment in respect of the optional protocol to the UNCRPD. There is an awful lot of work going on within the Departments and within the Government to improve the State's provision for people with disabilities, their families, their communities and their carers. It is important as well, however, that we send out a signal. We have ratified the UNCRPD, and a lot of work is going on in Departments on that, but a commitment was given to ratify the optional protocol. What work is under way by the Government on this, and are there timelines for the ratification of the optional protocol?
Earlier, the Taoiseach referred to the prospect of energy independence for Ireland as the moonshot of the 21st century. I raise with him the fact that yesterday we learnt that 95% of industry experts believe that, in fact, we will sail right past our 2030 target of 80% of our energy being from renewable sources. I raise with him concerns about the recent RESS 3 auction, which cleared the smallest amounts at the very highest price ever, with a real risk of the renewable pipeline running dry. I ask him again about the difficulties within the planning system that see some projects stuck for over 90 weeks in that system, with the distinct possibility that they run out of the RESS contract. None of this inspires great confidence. While the Taoiseach talks about moonshots and talks a big game, can he tell us when we will see the accelerated progress and the real initiatives and purpose that will be necessary to achieve that end?
Last Sunday was UN International Day of Persons with Disabilities. The disability community and disability activists are asking when the Government will adopt the optional protocol to the UNCRPD to make itself accountable and to ensure real equality for people with disabilities. This Thursday, a new alliance of disability groups will protest outside the Dáil between 12 o'clock and 2 o'clock. I encourage the Taoiseach and Government Ministers to go out and meet them. They are calling for the scrapping of the Government Green Paper on disability reform because they believe that the proposed reform completely fails to engage with the disability community or to understand the complex needs of the disability community in Ireland. I urge the Taoiseach to listen to what people say at that protest, to engage with them and to heed their call for the ratification of the optional protocol to the UNCRPD.
The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, was told that the health budget was not credible by the Secretary General of the Department of Health before budget day. He said that introducing a budget on that basis was not being honest and is a clear breach of public financial procedures. That is from the former senior civil servant in the Department of public expenditure, and this comes on the back of the head of the HSE saying he either runs a huge deficit or makes cuts. It comes on the back of 11,493 patients, including 434 children, going without a bed in hospitals in November. More than 830,000 people are on the waiting list, and tens of thousands of people are leaving EDs without being seen. This is no way to run a health service and makes a mockery of the budget processes. Is the Taoiseach's Government knowingly forcing the HSE to run a huge deficit this year? Does he accept that this breaks all the rules of public finance? Day after day, his own TDs come in here commentating - commentating - on the health services in their constituencies. Their party is in government.
Could I get an update on the timeline for the inquiry into how the State dealt with the Covid crisis? Have we looked at what particular modules this will deal with? My specific question is about how we deal with those families who lost loved ones in nursing homes. This is not the first time I have brought up with the Taoiseach the issue of Dealgan House and the families of the 23 who lost their lives at the beginning of the Covid crisis and who still await answers. The State and the Minister for Health have promised them that but, unfortunately, it has been up to themselves and the resilience they have shown. We need to give them answers and a means and a mechanism to deal with the particular issues that happened in Dealgan House.
I thank the Deputies for their questions.
Deputy Dillon raised the important issue of mental health and deficits in CAMHS. We have real difficulties there, as Deputies will know, in securing skilled and qualified staff for those teams, but I assure the Deputy and the House that the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is committed to making all the reforms necessary and possible to improve the situation.
Deputy Barry raised the issue of redundancies at Broadcom. I am not up to date on the particular issues there but I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Coveney, about it. I know he will want to take a particular interest in it, it being in Ballincollig, not too far from him.
Deputy Tóibín asked about animal welfare. I will have to come back to the Deputy with an update on the timeline for the Government's legislative plans on that.
Deputy O'Sullivan once again raised the issue of rare diseases and mentioned that 80 new medicines have been approved. We are examining the matter of setting aside some dedicated funding for new medicines next year. That will have to be dealt with in the context of the service plan. The same would apply to medical genetics. We are keen to make sure that the progress that has been made in recent years does not stall in 2024.
Deputy Smith asked about help for SMEs that are facing increased energy and labour costs. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, received approval at Cabinet today for his €250 million scheme to help businesses with rising costs. Roughly 90% of businesses in Ireland will receive a grant to help with rising costs. We appreciate that the cost of energy is very high for business, as is the cost of labour. One thing of particular interest in the Border region was a decision of the UK Government in many ways to follow our lead in announcing a big increase in the national minimum wage. Actually, on current exchange rates, the national minimum wage north of the Border will be slightly higher than it is south of the Border in 2024, although that will depend on how exchange rates fluctuate over the period ahead. Of course, north of the Border, auto-enrolment already exists, as does sick pay, albeit at a lower rate. We always keep an eye on that because we do not want to disadvantage businesses south of the Border. The fact that those changes have been announced by the British Government helps to prove that we were right to make the changes we have made to improve pay and terms and conditions.
On access to credit, I understand the point Deputy Smith makes about the loss of Ulster Bank, which is a real loss in terms of access to credit. How can we help?
We have a lot of State-backed lending now, through the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, Microfinance Ireland which is being moved properly into the Government sector, and particularly by encouraging more and more credit unions to offer business loans. The Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is very much leading the charge on this.
Deputy Troy asked about ending direct provision. To say very clearly, that remains our policy as a Government but, of course, it is not currently achievable given the large numbers of people who have come to the country in the past two years. There are more than 100,000 from Ukraine and elsewhere, 70,000 of whom need accommodation from the State. Yes it is our plan to align the supports we offer to people coming here from Ukraine and people seeking international protection with other western European states. We will not turn anyone away, and nor can we either under international law or the basic practicalities of doing so, but we want to avoid what are called secondary movements of people who have sought international protection in another European country or stayed in another European country for some time before moving to Ireland to seek international protection here.
With regard to the optional protocol in the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which was mentioned by Deputies Moynihan and Boyd Barrett, it is the position of the State that with regard to honouring international agreements we do not enter into binding international treaties until we are confident that obligations set out in them can be complied with. As such, a robust scoping exercise is procedurally necessary. This is currently being undertaken in conjunction with legal counsel by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Until ratification, we will continue to fully implement the convention and we look forward to engaging with the UN committee when a review of Ireland's first state report is scheduled. That should be quite soon.
Deputy McDonald asked about our renewable electricity target, which is 80% for 2030. I believe we will meet that. If we do not, we will not be far off it. With regard to the reforms we are making to make it possible, we have had a number of successful auctions and there are more to come. MARA has been set up for marine consent and it is up and running. The new planning and environment division of the High Court will sit for the first time next week. This will mean that judicial reviews will be heard and ruled on more quickly. An Bord Pleanála is being staffed up. The 15 board member complement is now there and there are additional staff. We have the planning and development Bill that will set statutory timelines for decisions to be made. I appeal to Sinn Féin to support this and not to oppose it. It cannot say that it is in favour of more home building and in favour of climate action if it votes against the Bill because it is the Bill that will help us to make these decisions happen more quickly.
You opposed statutory timelines for years. You voted against them.
We do not when it comes to An Bord Pleanála and that is the whole point.
To respond to Deputy Conway-Walsh, I cannot and will not be answering questions on behalf of Mr. Watt. What I can say is that the health budget for 2024 will be the highest ever. Waiting lists are down 20% from their post-pandemic peak. Health outcomes are improving and life expectancy in Ireland has never been longer. This is money that is being well spent. There are also 20,000 additional staff and 1,000 extra beds since the Government came to office with more to come. If there is a deficit next year, and it is not unusual for there to be a deficit in the HSE budget, we will deal with it by means of a supplementary.
To respond to Deputy Ó Murchú, the terms of reference for the Covid inquiry have to go to the Government. We hope this will happen soon. We are keen to engage with the Opposition on it. We will have to find members to serve on it and this will be complicated because we want people to serve on the inquiry who can be members of it but who were not involved in making decisions on Covid or commenting on them. This will be quite a challenge.
We are way over time and I am not sure whether we will get through all of the questions. We will get through the next lot in any event.
15. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Arab and Islamic representatives to discuss the conflict in the Middle East. [52009/23]
16. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach to report on his meetings with representatives from member states of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation and with ambassadors from various Arab states to Ireland. [52323/23]
17. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Arab and Islamic representatives to discuss the conflict in the Middle East. [53488/23]
18. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Arab and Islamic representatives to discuss the conflict in the Middle East. [53588/23]
19. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with Arab and Islamic representatives to discuss the conflict in the Middle East. [53591/23]
20. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Taoiseach to report on any recent discussions he has had and continues to have with other world leaders in connection with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [53860/23]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 to 20, inclusive, together.
I met with a group of resident Arab ambassadors and representatives of countries from the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation in Government Buildings on Tuesday, 21 November to discuss the situation in the Middle East, and in particular the ongoing conflict between Hamas and other armed Palestinian groups and Israel, and the terrible impact this conflict is having on the people of Gaza.
The meeting provided me with an opportunity to hear their views on the dire and deteriorating humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip and the rising violence and deaths in the West Bank. I emphasised Ireland’s clear position that international humanitarian law applies in all conflicts, in all circumstances, to state and non-state actors alike.
We discussed the urgent need for a humanitarian ceasefire and the need to de-escalate the crisis. I assured the group of Ireland’s commitment to do all we can, working within the EU and with our international partners, to bring about an end to the conflict, to provide critical aid to the people of Gaza and to turn our efforts to securing a sustainable peace based on the two-State solution.
I thanked the ambassadors for their countries' support in helping Irish citizens and their dependents to leave Gaza. I also raised the case of Emily Hand and asked the group to use any influence their countries may have in securing the unconditional release of all hostages held by Hamas in Gaza. I think that the House will join me in welcoming the release by Hamas of Emily, who is now reunited with her family, and I am pleased that the Government could play its part in working for her release with our partners in the region.
My attendance at COP 28 in Dubai last week also gave me a further opportunity to speak with leaders from the region about the evolving situation. Among those I met were the Emir of Qatar, the King of Jordan, the President of Egypt, the President of the United Arab Emirates, the Prime Minister of Lebanon and the Prime Minister of Iraq, who, in addition to offering their analysis, thanked the Irish Government for its strong position on the crisis.
We shared serious considerations about the dire and worsening humanitarian situation and our disappointment and dismay about the resumption of hostilities. We agreed that efforts must continue on seeking the establishment of a durable humanitarian ceasefire and towards reviving a political process based on a two-state solution.
I also thanked the leaders for their assistance in facilitating Irish citizens to leave Gaza as well as for their help with securing the release of Emily Hand and other hostages. I asked them to use any influence they have to secure the release of all hostages still being held in Gaza, in particular women and children.
The bombardment of Gaza following the recent truce has recommenced with a vengeance. Southern Gaza is now in the firing line and the people of Gaza have nowhere to go. More and more civilians, including 6,000 children, have been killed. It is absolutely appalling what is happening. It is clear the international community, including the US and EU, did not do much to prevent the current hostilities breaking out and they were happy to accept the status quo and try to manage this situation. It is to be hoped that a much wider conflict in the region can be avoided and Arab states in particular have an important role to play in this regard. I am thinking especially of Egypt, Jordan and Qatar and Saudi Arabia in this context. Iran, of course, is a constant threat to international peace and security in the region and beyond.
In the Taoiseach's talks with the Arab and Islamic representatives did he get any sense of a collective view on the need for a permanent humanitarian ceasefire and on the ongoing need to get humanitarian assistance into Gaza? In addition, is there recognition that a just and lasting peace process will have to be commenced when the current hostilities have come to an end? Were views expressed on how Gaza should be governed in the longer term at the meeting with the representatives and at the COP meeting? I would be interested to hear what views the Taoiseach ascertained on these matters.
The Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza, including homes, which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. The magazine +972 ran an article on 30 November based on conversations with seven current and former Israel Defense Forces intelligence operatives. I began with one of the quotes, and here is another:
"Nothing happens by accident," said another source. "When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target.
One operative said the Habsora system, which is an artificial intelligence system that identifies targets, enables the army to run a "mass assassination factory". This is a genocide. The Taoiseach is not doing enough. The Government is not doing enough and the Taoiseach is not doing enough. Where is the action? It is a bloody disgrace. Where is the action, Taoiseach?
We have all seen the failure to extend the ceasefire and to introduce a permanent ceasefire. In the long-term, peace is needed to deliver a negotiated settlement that provides real self-determination for the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, Benjamin Netanyahu's regime has done what it threatened to do and has gone back to its abject slaughter of Palestinians. We can only take the lessons from the information the Israelis are providing, namely, that they do not particularly care how many civilians are killed and that the only solution, from their point of view, is to remove the Palestinian people from the Gaza Strip. I cannot see anything else is in their plans. This is a regime that abjectly failed to defend the Israeli people.
The Taoiseach stated the Government does not see anything magical it can do to deliver a ceasefire. We all accept that.
I thank the Deputy.
What can we deliver at a European level? We need to hold Israel to account.
We are way over time.
We need to work with those states that will possibly work with us at European level, not those that are not willing to call for a ceasefire. Then, really and truly, we may have to go it alone.
Earlier, I asked the Taoiseach about our obligations under the genocide convention. He claimed that it is only for one of the state parties affected to invoke it. This is just misleading the House. Under the genocide convention, to which Ireland, all the other EU states, the United States and, indeed, Israel, for that matter, have signed up, all have a responsibility to protect against and prevent genocide. Then we have every leading genocide scholar and scholars of the Holocaust saying genocide is taking place. We can see it in front of us. The Israeli Government's leaders have said they intended to ethnically cleanse northern Gaza. They have done so. Then they massacred people in southern Gaza. They prevented Palestinians from moving from Khan Younis. The Israelis have said they are going to starve the entire population of food and electricity. All these things are crimes under the genocide convention, and we do nothing. Is the Taoiseach honestly telling me that our responsibilities under the genocide convention are to lament it years later but to do nothing while genocide is happening in front of our eyes?
I call Deputy Tóibín to conclude.
The recommencement of the war in Gaza is devastating. The IDF has admitted that yesterday was the most intense day since its ground war started in late October. UNICEF has said there are no safe zones anywhere in Gaza now. The World Health Organization, WHO, has said the situation is getting worse by the hour. Hamas has killed 1,200 people and taken 240 people hostage. That was a horrific war crime. However, 15,800 people have been killed by Israel just in the last two months. Shockingly, 6,000 of these have been children. In schools around our country before Christmas, little children will be singing songs about the first Christmas in Bethlehem, while at the same time children of the same age in Gaza will be slaughtered in their thousands by Israeli armaments. What real actions has this Government and the EU taken to force Israel into peace negotiations that will stick?
I hear a recurring theme from Deputies opposite. I think half of them are half-saying it and the other half are saying they are not saying it. It is that they seem to think that there is some sort of action the Government could take this evening or tomorrow that would cause the Prime Minister of Israel to think again and change his policy. Half the Opposition Deputies seem to be half-saying this half the time but then when I ask them if that is what they are saying, they say they are not saying it. I heard a very good analysis not that long ago from an expert on the history and politics of the region which made it very clear that not even at this stage will the views of the United States cause a change in policy in Israel. There would have been a time when Israel would have been very sensitive to what the US had to say in this regard.
That is not true. It is not correct.
The view was that the only thing that is going to change this is a change of public opinion in Israel, and that is a very different thing-----
No way.
-----and something very different from change. Again, it is sad we have got to the point where people are so keen to score political points on an issue like this-----
You are washing your hands.
Deputy, please.
-----that they somehow want to blame the Government for what is happening in Gaza.
Nobody is doing that.
In fairness, I do not think the Deputy is doing so, but I think some other people are. I think that is wrong and I find it objectionable because when I meet people-----
Object all you like but you are washing your hands.
Deputy, please.
Foreign policy is important, and what we hear from the far left here are just gestures and pantomime. It does not serve the interests of the Palestinian people at all. When I meet with the Palestinian Authority and the Prime Minister of Palestine, they thank us for the position we are taking and the work we are doing. When I meet with Arab ambassadors, presidents and prime ministers, they recognise Ireland as one of the countries that is taking a principled stance on this issue. Then, when I come into this Chamber, I get shouted at from the far left as if I am somehow a representative of Israel. It is just so divorced from the reality of what we hear from people who are dealing with this in their own lives every day in the Arab world. It is, quite frankly, objectionable in my view.
You are washing your hands.
Please, Deputy, let the Taoiseach finish.
Actually-----
It is genocide.
Sorry, I am just going to stop now because I am effectively being accused by Deputy Barry of somehow being responsible for what is happening in Gaza.
Deputy, please.
I am going to sit down, Deputy. I think it is bang out of order. I am sorry.
There are other questions to be responded to.
May I answer the other questions without being interrupted or shouted down?
I think it is beyond the pale in this House for those kinds of accusations to be made.
Hear, hear.
The clock has been adjusted if the Taoiseach wishes to conclude.
On the question from Deputy Haughey, as to whether there is a collective view from the Arab countries that I engage with, I do not think it would be correct to say there is a collective view. There are different emphases from Egypt to Jordan to Qatar, for example. I think there is a majority view that there should be a permanent ceasefire; that there should be no expulsions of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank into Egypt and Jordan and they would not facilitate that; that there should not be a second Nakba, and we strongly agree with their position on that; that there should not be a future for Hamas in having any control of Gaza; that there should be no reoccupation of Gaza or territorial diminution of Gaza; and that Gaza would have to be handed back to some form of Palestinian control or a Palestinian authority when this current terrible phase of the conflict ends. I have to say Ireland would broadly be of the same view as those Arab countries and we offered to support those countries in any practical way we could. That is exactly what we are doing. What we are not going to get involved in are gesture politics, doing things that are ineffectual and that do not actually help the Palestinians, but just make us feel or look good. That is not a serious approach and does not merit anything, in my view.
Deputy Ó Murchú asked about what we are doing on a European level. There is no consensus at European level on this matter. We have been able to agree certain resolutions and certain language but the language is not precise enough, in my view. We do not have QMV votes on foreign policy, so this must be done on a unanimous basis, which makes it very hard - next to impossible - to have a common European position on this matter. We are one of about eight countries that are most sympathetic to the Palestinian people's rightful demand for justice and human rights and statehood, and we are co-ordinating with those countries as to what we can do that would actually be effective and can actually make a difference.
On the issue of the genocide convention, I sought advice on it. The advice I have is that it is the injured party that should initiate proceedings under the genocide convention. That makes a lot of sense to me. The Members opposite might not like that-----
It is just not accurate.
They might not like the fact that the Palestinian Authority has decided not to-----
It is not accurate.
It is the case that the Palestinian Authority has not decided to take, or at least my advice is that it has not taken, a case as an injured party.
That is simply not the case.
If I am incorrect on that, I am happy to clarify. Again, there are interruptions when uncomfortable facts are put across.
No, when inaccuracies are stated.
Just on genocide, I think, or at least I hope, we all agree in this House that the Holocaust, the Shoah, was a genocide.
Absolutely.
Hitler killed 6 million people and he would have killed another 3 million to 6 million people if he could have. Deputy Boyd Barrett takes the view that the killing of 15,000 people in Gaza is a genocide, and it would appear that they intend to kill many more. I will ask this question, however, and I think it is a reasonable one to ask. Is what Hamas has done to Israel not also genocidal?
It does not have the capacity.
Hamas went into Israel, killed 1,400 people, including women and children, and took people hostage.
They would have killed many more if they had the chance. I have no doubt that Hamas would kill as many people in Israel as it possibly could if it was given the chance and had the weapons. Why is that not a genocide? Is 1,400 people not enough?
Palestinians are the oppressed, not the oppressor.
We have just over six minutes left. I have a choice. Question Nos. 21 to 31, inclusive, are grouped but Members will not have a chance to contribute. There is only time for the Taoiseach to outline his answer. Is that agreed?
Is what agreed, sorry?
There is no time left for Members to contribute. In the time that is left, I can allow the Taoiseach to do so, if we all agree.
Should we not leave it until tomorrow?
That is-----
It is all housing. It is better to leave it until tomorrow.
Is that the agreement of the House?
No, I do not agree. There are six minutes left.
We are not going to get in all the speakers.
To be clear, no speaker is going to get in. The time that is left will be taken by the Taoiseach in his reply. Are we in agreement that it will go into tomorrow so that everybody can get in?
Agreed.
Go raibh maith agat.
