Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions – Dáil Éireann (33rd Dáil) – Tuesday, 12 Dec 2023

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I begin by saying hello to Lorcan and Harry and their mum Karen Keely. They are in the Visitors' Gallery and are from Ratoath in the royal county of Meath. They are very welcome.

I understand that the Government has signed off on changes to supports for Ukrainian people. It has been reported that welfare payments are to be brought down in line with payments made to other international protection applicants.

Is that the case? Will the Taoiseach tell us when we will have sight of the legislation for these welfare changes?

I understand the Government has also decided to limit State-provided accommodation for Ukrainian people to 90 days. Will the Taoiseach confirm that is the case? It is the issue of accommodation I particularly want to focus on because I am very concerned about it. We have, as he knows, a major and embedded housing capacity problem in Ireland. I raise the question of housing with the Taoiseach, week in and week out, more often than I raise any other single issue. Indeed, it is the issue raised with me on the ground more than any other. Where will incoming Ukrainian people be housed for the 90 days to which I refer? Where is the capacity and where is the plan for temporary accommodation? Where will they go when the 90 days are up? Will they have to find a home within the general housing system, which is already at breaking point? Am I to understand they will have to find a place in the private rental sector? People cannot find rented accommodation for love nor money and when they do, the rents are extortionate. Will Ukrainian people be given tents and told to take their chances on the streets? I am sure we can agree that would simply not be acceptable and would not work.

Where is the Government's plan? Will the Taoiseach outline it in some detail? Government decisions are taken at a time when the housing system is broke, overwhelmed and creaking at the seams. It is a source of great distress for people and families right across our communities. There are stories of young families in emergency accommodation. Young people are raising their own families in their parents' boxrooms. People are unable to find affordable rental accommodation, not to mind buying their own homes. Cá bhfuil an plean? An bhfuil plean ag an Taoiseach nó ag an Rialtas? Tá ár gcóras tithíochta faoi bhrú ollmhór. Tá daoine ag iarraidh an rud ceart a dhéanamh ach caithfidh an Rialtas an plean a thaispeáint dúinn.

People want to do the right thing and have done the right thing. They want to help those fleeing the horror of war. They want their Government to do the right thing. Above all else, they want their Government to have a plan. That plan, that capacity, has been absent and our housing system has come under even greater pressure. The Government has today taken its decisions at Cabinet. Will the Taoiseach explain, in respect of everything I have outlined, how this plan is going to work?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. At the outset, I want to say I am proud that we have welcomed 100,000 Ukrainians to Ireland. That has been done at a time when their country is being attacked and invaded. All 27 countries of the European Union, including Ireland, opened their doors to people from Ukraine. Some of us opened our houses to people from Ukraine. Roughly 100,000 people have fled Ukraine and come to Ireland, of whom we think approximately 80,000 are still here. Of course, they continue to come. I want to say clearly that Ukrainians who are fleeing the war in Ukraine will remain welcome in Ireland, just as they are welcome in every member state, all 27 countries, of the European Union. That is not going to change. However, we have decided to bring what we offer Ukrainians fleeing here into line with what is offered in other western European countries, very often countries that have not welcomed as many Ukrainians as we have per head of population. That will require legislative change. The legislation will be published in January and, with the help of these Houses, will be enacted by the end of January. Those changes will come into effect at that point.

At this stage, the changes to which I refer have been well flagged and well discussed for several months. People know these changes are on the way. Under the new arrangements, anybody arriving from Ukraine and seeking temporary protection will be provided with State accommodation, just as they are now. However, we can only guarantee up to 90 days. During that 90-day period, people here will be paid €38.80 per week as a subsistence allowance. There will be an additional €29.80 per child per week.

This is in recognition of the fact that accommodation is being provided, as well as heat and light. This is money that being provided for daily expenses, and that will be for 90 days. During that period, we will work with them, with NGOs and others to assist them to find their own accommodation. Many different possibilities arise, including: taking up employment, where possible, which many Ukrainians have done and have provided their own accommodation; pledged accommodation; or staying with people they know in networks. Any solution we can find for them, we will. Once the 90 days are up and if people move out then, or even before then, they will be assessed for social welfare as Irish citizen would be or any EU citizen who satisfies the habitual residence clause. This includes eligibility for rent allowance but not for not the housing assistance payment or social housing.

As we all appreciate, this is a very difficult situation. This is the biggest movement of people that has happened in Europe since the Second World War. Between 6 million and 7 million people have left Ukraine. A proportion of those, approximately 100,000, have come to Ireland and we have been able to accommodate them. There are over 10,000 Ukrainian children in our schools and over 10,000 Ukrainians working in our economy, with about 70,000 of them in some form of State-provided accommodation. However, accommodation is scarce and the numbers coming in remain very high. We are making this change with that in mind, recognising that other European countries have acted similarly and have changed what they offer over the course of the past two years. We are now following suit.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I agree with the Taoiseach that the welcome displayed to people from Ukraine has marked us very well. I have no doubt that will continue. People unquestionably want to do the right thing and want us collectively to do the right thing in response to what the Taoiseach correctly described as the biggest movement of people since the Second World War. The Taoiseach also correctly noted that accommodation is scarce, but what he has not set out for us is the plan for temporary accommodation for Ukrainian people who come here. Where will they be? Where will they stay for the 90 days and, crucially, where do they go after those 90 days? Does the Taoiseach expect or anticipate that they will seek accommodation in the private rental sector, which is already at breaking point? What is the Government's plan in terms of terms of accommodating people? I appreciate the fact that the Taoiseach has clarified the Government's decisions, but I am very concerned that there is no plan to accommodate for temporary purposes or indeed, when the 90 days expire.

The Taoiseach

We are confident that we will be able to provide that State accommodation for the 90 initial days to give people who come here from Ukraine a chance to establish themselves and a chance to find their own accommodation and their own employment - whatever they can manage to do. Some of that accommodation already exists across the system. As I mentioned already, people from Ukraine who have moved into State accommodation do not always stay there. Some have moved on to find their own accommodation while others have moved on to other parts of the European Union, so accommodation does become free in the existing former hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation. We also have the modular homes which the Office of Public Works is building and the refurbishment programme, which is taking old buildings and bringing them back into use as accommodation. All of that will continue. We have already managed to find accommodation for over 70,000 Ukrainians. Some of that will be the same accommodation, as people move out, but we will, of course, need to source additional accommodation as we have done for the past two years. In a crisis situation like this, I appreciate that the perfect is the enemy of the good. We need to use any accommodation that we can find. In many cases, it will be former hotels, former bed and breakfast accommodation and refurbished buildings.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

As we speak, the clock is ticking at a vitally important decision-making time for the existential crisis facing our planet - the climate catastrophe. Má fhanann cúrsaí mar atá, deir na Náisiúin Aontaithe gur téamh 3°C atá i ndán dúinn, a bheadh ina thubaiste aeráide.

We know that as we near the end of the hottest year on record, it is vital we see a strong agreement coming out of COP28. It is appalling to see that the conference is still running on as we speak due to the failure to reach an agreement, a failure that appears to have resulted from the sabotage of a stronger draft wording which has clearly been corrupted and scuttled by oil barons and petrostates. This is deeply concerning because we all know it is not enough merely to reduce our consumption of dirty fossil fuels. We must phase them out altogether. While events like COP are important, we need to be judged by our actions and not just our words.

As Dr. Cara Augustenborg points out in The Irish Times today, Ireland is relatively well placed to make the transition on climate compared with other countries. We are not reliant on oil or coal exports, and while no one would argue that the transition away from fossil fuels will be easy, nonetheless, relative to other countries, it should be easier for us. Yet, we have slipped again in the world rankings for climate protection by six places to 43rd out of 63 countries. It seems the Government is not yet up to the challenge. Despite the fine aspirations, we see missed targets and serious delays in meeting the necessary reductions. All of us are doing our best on this but oil, gas, and other big corporates continue to damage and destroy our environment. Their business models are fuelling weather disasters and poisoning our air, land and water. Society is bearing the brunt of increasingly erratic weather events. All of us are thinking of the community in Leitrim village hit by a tornado on Sunday, which is now picking up the pieces.

The challenge is urgent but, all too often, there is a perception that the onus of change and of picking up the pieces are left to individuals and local communities, with big businesses getting off scot-free. We need to hold companies to account. Not only do we need to meet our legally binding targets for the sake of the planet, but by doing so we are improving our lives and communities. We know we need to address the health implications of fossil fuels too. We have the highest asthma diagnosis rates in Europe and dirty air has been linked to premature deaths across our urban centres. So much of this is driven by fossil fuel consumption.

Will the Government support a global treaty to phase out fossil fuels? Will it oppose what it seems is a plan for the next COP to be held in another petrostate? Will the Government take the necessary action at home to meet our emissions reduction targets? Will it introduce the Labour Party's €9 per month climate ticket to help support a move away from fossil fuel transport? Will it further incentivise cycling and active travel infrastructure to give our climate targets meaning?

The Taoiseach

As I said in the House previously, climate change is the biggest threat facing humanity at present. We have to be the generation of politicians that turns the tide on climate change and biodiversity loss. We can do that in many ways, first, by reducing our emissions. Our greenhouse gas emissions are falling, although not fast enough. However, greenhouse gas emissions per capita have fallen considerably in Ireland in recent years. Second, we also need to scale up adaptation because, unfortunately, so much of climate change has already happened. It is baked in as inevitable so we need to scale up adaptation. Third, we need to bring something to the table when it comes to what we ask the rest of the world to do, particularly the poorest and most vulnerable states, some of which will be the worst affected. We are doing that through climate finance. I made the commitment, which we will honour, to provide €225 million a year in climate finance, every year, by 2025.

What is required is a system change. I agree with that call. We need to change the way we generate our electricity, the way we heat our buildings and the way we travel. We need to change our food systems too. That will take time and investment. Changing systems that took generations to build up in a decade or two is an enormous challenge, and one that will take time and require a lot of investment. Mary Robinson has said we are in a very pivotal moment when it comes to climate action. We are on the verge of an irreversible climate catastrophe and, at the same time, we are on the verge of inventing and deploying all the technologies we need to make sure this does not happen. That is the challenge before us.

We have gone up and down the index the Deputy mentioned a few times through the years.

I think it is done by an NGO. I do not think it is an official UN or COP index. NGOs have lots of indexes, as the Deputy knows, and they are entitled to have them.

The Deputy mentioned a treaty. When it comes to any treaty we would, of course, have to see it. We would have to have the legal advice of the Attorney General. Ideally we would have to be involved in negotiating it. Generally if this country adopts a treaty we would be involved in some way in negotiating it. I am not sure this has been the case but we will certainly take a look at it.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

I am glad to hear the Taoiseach say that he agrees on the need for system change but again it is a matter of ensuring that actions and outcomes match words and aspirations. The Taoiseach's Government has fallen short on ensuring outcomes are there in place. I repeat again the question. Will the Government oppose the holding of COP 29 in another petro-state? We hope very much that we will see a stronger text emerge from the negotiations today at COP 28 but it is likely that if COP 29 is again held in a petro-state next year as is planned, or the next event, that we will see similar fudging and similar roll backs on the strong text that should be there to phase out fossil fuels, which is the text that Mary Robinson and so many more have called for.

There is more that has to be done at home to ensure that the transition is a just one, to address the socioeconomic impacts of climate change for our poorest communities and our most disadvantaged communities. I echo the calls of my colleague, Senator Rebecca Moynihan, who has called for a task force to investigate here at home in Ireland how the climate crisis will impact on our most disadvantaged communities and what supports the Government has to put in place to ensure there is that just transition. Will the Taoiseach support that call? How will the Taoiseach ensure a just transition here?

The Taoiseach

As the House will know, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, is currently in Dubai.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I hope he stays there.

The Taoiseach

He is representing Ireland and is also one of the lead negotiators on behalf of the European Union-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

God help us.

The Taoiseach

-----on this critical issue of climate action and climate finance. I do not know which countries are competing for COP 29, to be very frank. We would certainly prefer that it be in a country that has a good record on climate action rather than one that might be resisting climate action. I am not sure which countries are offering to host at this stage.

The EU's position and the one that Ireland is advocating for at COP is that climate should be at the centre of all financial and economic decisions and that international financial flow should be consistent with the aim to keep global temperature increases as close to the 1.5° as possible by 2030. We have been to the forefront of negotiations on loss and damage and I was happy when I was at COP to announce €25 million towards the newly established loss and damage fund. This is one of the highest per capita contributions of any State.

As I mentioned earlier, we have also committed to €225 million per year in climate finance by 2025, which is a doubling of our previous commitments. We are on track to meet that.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We are approaching Christmas. Christmas is normally a time of celebration, rest and peace. For 2.4 million people in Gaza, because of the continued barbaric and savage assault by Israel Christmas for Gazans is going to be a time of fear and death. Against the background of the slaughter Israel is visiting on the people of Gaza the United States of America on Friday took the utterly shameful and inhumane decision to veto a resolution by the UN Security Council just to call for a ceasefire to halt the horror being visited on the people of Gaza.

It is also reported in the last few days that Joe Biden, the US President, has also asked Congress to support the sale of 45,000 new tank shells to Israel for use in their Merkava tanks for use in Gaza to blow to bits more children, more women, more men, more schools, more hospitals and more water infrastructure. This of course comes on top of the fact that Biden increased the annual US support for Israel, which was $3 billion before the current massacre commenced, with a request for $14 billion to further assist Israel to conduct its slaughter.

The United States not only will not call for a stop to Israel's massacre but wants to arm it to carry on the massacre that has led to 18,000 dead, 8,000 of them children; 85% of the population driven from their homes; 1 million people now on the brink of starvation, according to the UN; only 11 of 36 hospitals functioning, and they are barely functioning; and the UN warning of a humanitarian apocalypse.

Against this background, the Christian leaders in Bethlehem have cancelled Christmas, but there is a different attitude from the US ambassador in Ireland, who has, I understand, invited all TDs to attend tonight a dinner at the ambassador’s residence in the Phoenix Park to celebrate what is called the joys of the season. What joys they intend to celebrate I cannot understand. Is it how effective their shells are in killing people and blowing up schools and hospitals? Does the Taoiseach think it would be appropriate, because I do not, for any Member of this House or Oireachtas to attend a celebration of the joys of the season when the US is blocking attempts to end the horror in Gaza? I appeal to the Taoiseach to join those boycotting this event because it is sick and disgusting against the background of what is happening in Gaza.

The Taoiseach

TDs and Senators are free to make up their own minds on these matters. I will not be attending. I have a long-standing and prior commitment to attend the Christmas carol service in the seminary in Maynooth this evening and that is the event I will be attending. It is up to other people to decide what they want to do this evening.

I restate my belief that the current crisis in Gaza is unbearable. The provision of more offensive weapons for Israel, Hamas or any other protagonist in this conflict is not part of the solution. The death toll is now truly shocking, estimated at around 18,000 people, with 1.9 million people displaced. It is difficult to know when we last saw military suffering on this scale. Perhaps it was the Iraq war or the war in Syria. Some people suggest not since the Vietnam war have we seen such violence being inflicted on a civilian population. The UN Secretary General and humanitarian agencies say we are facing an imminent humanitarian catastrophe which could involve starvation and the spread of diseases we have not seen in this country since medieval times.

There must be an immediate and sustainable humanitarian ceasefire. The relentless bombings and the killing of innocent civilians must end. Ireland has condemned the attack by Hamas and other militant groups on Israel and the devastating loss of life it caused. We restate that condemnation. There was no excuse for it. While Israel has the right to defend itself, it must be exercised within the parameters of international humanitarian law and we do not believe this is happening.

On Monday I co-signed a letter with the Prime Ministers of Spain, Belgium and Malta to European Council President Charles Michel, asking for the EU to call for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. I will press that case at the European Council on Thursday and Friday. The Tánaiste did so at the Foreign Affairs Council yesterday and also sought that the European Commission examine the EU-Israel Association Agreement given the severity of the crisis, with particular regard to the human rights clause, recognising that any proposal to suspend the agreement would require consensus or unanimity at EU level. Most EU member states have called for additional sanctions against Hamas, which we support. Many other member states have called for sanctions and travel bans against violent settlers in the West Bank, and we have joined those calls as well. More than 250 people have been killed in the West Bank since early October. The West Bank is not controlled by Hamas. Those deaths are at the hands of Israel and should not have happened.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I call on all Members of this House, regardless of party and whether in government or opposition, to state clearly they will boycott this shameful event happening in the Phoenix Park in the US ambassador’s residence. It is sick and disgusting that they could talk of celebrating the joys of the season when they are blocking attempts to stop a genocidal massacre that is being visited on the people of Gaza.

I also think we need to go further. We should tell the US Government, given its shameful decision to veto the UN resolution - I presume they will do the same again at the UN General Assembly vote that takes place today - that its troops are not welcome in Shannon Airport while it continues to support and condone the massacre that Israel is conducting in Gaza. We need to be going further. I welcome the fact that the Government is calling for a ceasefire but we need sanctions. As Gideon Levy put it, Israel has to pay a price. There need to be serious sanctions, not just on so-called extremist settlers but also on the Government of Israel and the military leaders who are perpetrating a genocide. All of these people should be sanctioned. There should be arrest warrants out for people who are engaged in a mass murder of the people in Gaza.

The Taoiseach

Ireland deeply regrets the failure of the UN Security Council to agree a resolution calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, the protection of civilians and compliance with international law, the immediate and unconditional release of hostages and urgent humanitarian access. This resolution was co-sponsored by no fewer than 99 UN member states, yet it was not adopted as a result of the veto being used. The resolution had the support of 13 of the 15 members of the Security Council, including France, which is an EU member state.

Regarding the actions we are taking as a State, as I mentioned we are among a group of European countries that is calling for a ceasefire. I will make that case in Brussels on Thursday and Friday. We support further sanctions on Hamas but also the imposition of sanctions on violent settlers in the West Bank. We have called for a review of the EU-Israel association agreement, taking into account the human rights clause, and we are also providing additional funding for the International Criminal Court, which is the body that could issue arrest warrants. It must be allowed to carry out its investigation without political interference.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

At the outset, I wish to express my sympathy on the passing of the businessman and child campaigner Jonathan Irwin. I extend my sympathies to his wife, former Senator Mary Ann O'Brien, his family and all the staff, nurses and children who avail of supports from the Jack and Jill Foundation. He was a wonderful man who did so much for many sick children.

Yesterday morning, William Porter from County Donegal gave a harrowing account on Highland Radio of the false allegations made against him by Tusla social workers, and the devastating impact it had on his family and children. Tusla social workers falsely accused him of child abuse of his own children. Tusla has now given him an official apology, and of course after a High Court case the State must pay compensation. Deputy Pearse Doherty raised this here last week with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman.

I have spoken to William Porter. What is deeply troubling about this case is that it appears there has been State collusion by Tusla and An Garda Síochána in the Republic, and PSNI child protection services in Northern Ireland, to frame an innocent man for a crime he did not commit, and to deny him access to his daughter for several years. This is shocking. I can remember the Dowra case with the former Minister, Seán Doherty, and the furore, and there was no child abuse in it. However, this is outrageous.

The scandal is just the latest in a long list of scandals involving Tusla that are drip-fed to us every week, and which are wreaking devastating consequences on families and children. A study by the UCD school of social policy, social work and social justice, published in June, revealed that teenage girls taken into care by Tusla and accommodated in private residential care were being trafficked for sexual exploitation by gangs of predatory men. That was last June. In September, the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, confirmed that his Department deleted, if you would not mind, three of the four reports pertaining to children taken into care by Tusla, which were given to him by retired Judge Dermot Simms.

The common thread running through all of these cases is that there appears to be absolutely no accountability or respect for families or anybody else on the part of Tusla. It is a public body funded by the State. It is truly shocking. We had the spectacle announced last Tuesday that the regulatory body CORU is going to conduct an inquiry, in private, into the conduct of two or three of the social workers involved in the Maurice McCabe case ten years ago. Deich mbliana ó shin, and it is still not investigated. Now it is going to be an inside job. This just beggars belief.

Will the Taoiseach accept that Tusla, which will be a decade old next January, is unfit for purpose, is out of control, has no accountability and listens to nobody? Will he hold a public inquiry into it? It is badly needed. It must be remembered that Tusla is a public body, as I said, paid for by the taxpayer. It has a fundamental duty of self-scrutiny in the pursuit of high standards. As if all the allegations made by Tusla social workers were not bad enough, the agency is unable to determine the whereabouts of 52 children who were taken into care and are missing under the watch of Tusla. We need a public inquiry here.

The Taoiseach

Tusla has an extraordinarily difficult job. The people who work in Tusla are very committed and do work which I think very few of us in this House would be willing to do. They look after children who have been abandoned and abused by their parents, have come to this country unaccompanied and have endured horrific neglect and abuse. It is totally wrong-headed to in any way try to blame the staff in Tusla or the agency for that. They are the ones trying to help the children who have suffered and experienced these things. They are not the cause of the problem, they are the ones trying to help to put things right. We should not lose sight of that. It is a very difficult job for which the outcomes can never be as good as we would like. It is an accountable body established under law. It used to be part of the HSE but is no longer - it is a dedicated agency in its own right. It has a board and is accountable to the Minister for children, and also to the Oireachtas through the joint committee. I know it regularly comes in for hearings and to answer questions. The Deputy mentioned that social workers are accountable to CORU, the regulatory body for that agency.

The Deputy mentioned Jonathan Irwin at the outset of his remarks. I join the Deputy in recognising his life and contribution and extend my condolences to his wife, friends and family. He was a fine man. I did not always agree with him but I know he always had the best intentions. One area he worked on closely when I was Minister for Health was reforming the rules around medical cards for children with profound disabilities. At the time, it was means tested. We changed the rules so that any child with a terminal illness who was end-of-life, and any child with a severe disability who was in receipt of a domiciliary care allowance payment, automatically got a medical card regardless of their parents' means and incomes. That was a significant change made at that time. He contributed to that change in policy. I want to recognise that in the House today.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Taoiseach for that. We accept that a lot of good work is done by Tusla, as mentioned in the Taoiseach's reply, but we cannot allow public bodies like this to go off and carry on all of these improprieties. Ten years on, we are investigating what was done to Maurice McCabe. It is no wonder they do it and get away with it if they are going to get a flag of honour from this House. It is unacceptable. Deputy Durkan has spoken in this House several times about the situation in which a mother reports sexual abuse to the Garda, Tusla gets involved, experts are appointed, the family court accuses the mother of parental alienation and recommends that custody be given to the perpetrator. This is shocking stuff. I have met these mothers and families from the midlands, County Tipperary and all over the country. We cannot just stand up and say everything is fine and Tusla does great work. It does but it has gone astray. It was a part of the HSE that was hived off with no proper functions or diktats. We need a public inquiry. The Taoiseach standing up defending Tusla's work and praising it is not acceptable. Lives have been destroyed; 52 children in its care are missing. We all have children and grandchildren and want the best for them. It is shocking to stand up, dismiss that and say Tusla does everything right, even though it is responsible and is not accountable to anybody.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Dec 2023