Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2023

Vol. 1047 No. 5

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Agriculture Schemes

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, for coming in this morning. I note that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, is not here. I very much appreciate the Minister of State who has come in here although it is not for her Department. I know the Minister was at COP but he is back; he was around the House last night. We were told that in the event the Minister was not here and the topic was to be discussed last night, it would be the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who would take it. Again, the Minister of State is not from the Department of the Minister: I do appreciate how diligent and hard-working he is, as I do all the Ministers here.

When Topical Issues was established, it was so Ministers could be interrogated about the work of their Department. Increasingly, Ministers avoid that by not showing up and it is facilitated by the Ceann Comhairle's office. I appreciate that the Chair this morning is the Leas-Cheann Comhairle rather than the Ceann Comhairle but this denigration of the Dáil is something that needs to be remarked upon. I do not wish to take any more of my time on it but I will be writing to the Ceann Comhairle about it.

ACRES is a much-heralded scheme of the Department of agriculture. It replaces various schemes, REPS being one of them, and GLAS as it became. There was quite a bit of controversy about it for a number of reasons, primarily because it failed to adequately encourage farmers who were farming in marginal areas or areas that were the subject of a designation, and therefore there was a particular environmental sensitivity around the type of agriculture that could be practised there. With such lip service being paid to the environment by the former Taoiseach and current Tánaiste, and to a slightly lesser extent by the current Taoiseach, with the Green Party in government one might expect that these areas might be better protected but in fact they are worse.

For example, the hen harrier scheme was established in the Slieve Aughties in Clare and other areas which are designated for the protection of the hen harrier. It is a very important designation inn Annex 1 species, a bird in decline. It is a pity one might say that the protection does not apply in other areas right beside the Slieve Aughties but that is a slightly different matter. In any event, farmers bought into this and carried out the actions that were required of them. Suddenly, it was just pulled with very little forewarning. Likewise the Burren Life project. I notice the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Creed, is here. Did he have his photograph taken in the Burren? If he did not, he was certainly unique among Ministers in the Department of agriculture for 20 years. There was a procession of them down to the Burren to have their photographs taken with this very successful Burren Life project, and the current incumbent just decided to end it just like that. I raised it with the then Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, and he said farmers should not be out of pocket but they are and will be out of pocket because the Burren Life scheme was axed. If we combine what farmers were getting under the GLAS scheme and the hen harriers scheme, or the GLAS scheme and the Burren Life scheme, it is down.

On top of that, they are not being paid at all because there is a delay now. Usually the Department of agriculture pays out 50% of a scheme early. The calculations can be done thereafter and if someone does not fully comply or if there are issues around it the Department can claw that back from the other 50%. Deputy Brendan Smith, who is also a former Minister for Agriculture and sometimes sits behind me, raised this in the Dáil and asked why 50% of the amount could not be paid out. In fact, none of the amount is to be paid out in the co-operation areas which are generally in a designated area or an area that is particularly environmentally sensitive. Instead of being rewarded, they are being penalised. They have costs to meet. Farmers run a business. I know very few people in this Dáil run a business but they run a business, they have bills to pay now based on the fact that they were projecting getting that income now.

I appreciate it is not the Minister of State's Department and I thank her for coming in. It is a pity the Minister has copped out by not coming. I look forward to knowing what the Department plans to do.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)

I thank Deputy McNamara for giving me the opportunity to update the House as regards the agri-climate rural environment scheme, in particular the scheduling of payments to farmers under the scheme. ACRES as we better know it is the agri-environment climate measure under Ireland's CAP strategic plan 2023-2027. In line with the commitment in the programme for Government, this flagship environmental scheme to which the Government has committed over €1.5 billion over its duration, was launched in 2022 and proved to be well received. This was evident from the exceptional demand for entry into the scheme, which demonstrates the interest of farmers to take on actions to address climate, biodiversity and environmental issues. While it had originally been intended that 30,000 farmers would be accepted into the scheme in tranche 1, as a Government, a decision was made that all valid applications submitted for tranche 1 would be accepted. That meant now that some 46,000 farmers were able to commence their participation in the scheme from 1 January 2023, which I am told is the largest intake into an agri-environment scheme in one tranche.

This acceptance of 46,000 applicants into the scheme has, as the Deputy is aware, created significant pressure on the Department of agriculture's ability to make advance payments to all participants by the year end as had been planned. The structure of the scheme, which has two approaches, general and co-operation, as well as new features such as results-based scoring, has also contributed to that pressure. No two contracts are the same as they can be comprised of either prescription or results-based actions or a combination of both, with a range of validations to be applied to ensure the correct amount payable is determined.

While officials have been working to expedite payments, it will not be possible with the unprecedented numbers and the complexity of the work required to make an advance payment to all ACRES participants by the end of this year. The schedule is that advance payments will commence on 18 December 2023, just next week, with payments for two thirds of all ACRES general participants in the final stage of being processed to go out in that first payment run. While payment for ACRES participants in the co-operation approach are being progressed, the position is that due to the additional complexity associated with that approach, including the fact that the bulk of payments are results based, payments for that cohort of participants will begin to issue in February 2024. Everything possible is being done to pay all ACRES participants as soon as possible. As the Deputy will appreciate, it is important for budgetary and audit purposes and for farmers themselves that the correct payment is made at the outset. I appreciate the call for a once-off, interim or 50% payment. The Department is of the view that it is not an alternative and that they want to get it right on the first occasion. They say it would undermine the integrity of the ACRES scheme as any such expenditure, they say, would not meet the standards required to access EU funding in accordance with the new performance reporting obligations under the CAP strategic plan.

The Government acknowledges the intensive and focused efforts of all involved in the implementation of the scheme, including farmers, advisers, ACRES co-operation project teams and the officials across government who are working together for the first year of this new scheme. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine acknowledges that farmers were expecting payment before the end of this year. Every effort is being made to maximise the number of ACRES general applicants who will be paid in the period before Christmas, commencing as I mentioned, on 18 December. Efforts will continue to be made to ensure that payments for ACRES co-operation participants are processed and cleared for payment as quickly as possible in early 2024.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has paid out €1.3 billion to farmers in CAP payments since October on schemes such as the basic income support for sustainability, BISS, complementary redistributive income support for sustainability, CRISS, the eco scheme and the areas of natural constraint scheme. There is a significant flow of payments going out. The structure of ACRES is at the forefront of agri-environmental schemes throughout Europe. It really is an ambitious undertaking to scale up the results-based approach that had been used before in certain European innovation partnership projects up to a national level. The roll-out of a scheme is always challenging at the outset in order to get it right. However, efforts are being made to ensure that payments will be made on a more timely basis in the future.

Deputy Michael McNamara

The Minister of State outlined the reasons for the delay, including the fact that it is not scored like the previous measures. However, it was the Department that determined there would be scoring in this. The Department set all the parameters of the scheme. Farmers had a simple choice to make, take it or leave it. They took it because they believed they had nothing to lose. In fact, they are losing out. They have bills coming in specifically to do with compliance with this scheme. It is a very expensive scheme to join in terms of the administrative costs. There is a great deal of money to be paid to agricultural advisers. The biggest is Teagasc, which is not a firm of agricultural advisers but a semi-State body. It has sent out bills to farmers for €700 or so because it helped them to join the scheme. I appreciate that we have the benefit of being elected to a State institution and that our salaries, etc., are protected. However, farmers owe €700 each to Teagasc, which has warned that it wants the money now or that it will start charging interest.

The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Marine is a shareholder in Teagasc. He holds the shares on behalf of the State, does he not? Certainly, all of the shares are held on behalf of the State. The Department is not paying out the money because it made matters more difficult for itself than had been planned. That is outrageous. Will the Minister talk to Teagasc and tell it to hold off on the bills, on charging interest and on issuing further demand letters until such time as payments are made under ACRES? This is a very specific question. I appreciate that the Minister of State is not even in the Department that will make the decision on this matter. Topical Issues were created in order that Deputies might interrogate relevant Departments. I see three Ministers here today, two of them are taking questions that have nothing to do with their responsibilities. I congratulate them on being here. I appreciate that they are here, but we should have an opportunity to put questions to the relevant Ministers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are over time.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Yes, I am out of time. However, the Minister is arguably out of order by not being here. That is all fine with the Ceann Comhairle's office.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister of State would help me to gain some time, I would appreciate it.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

That is not a problem. I appreciate the point Deputy McNamara makes. I referred earlier to two thirds of ACRES general participants claims being in the final stages of being processed before year-end. It is now 13 December, and 18 December is next week. I will interrogate with the Minister the question or otherwise of a State body charging interest in respect of a bill. That does not seem like a practical thing to do when working hand in hand with the Department to try to achieve a results-based outcome. I will confirm the position. I appreciate that the Deputy is better informed on matters of agriculture than I, but there is a practical, logistical point here that the payments are being processed before year-end. There are also payments being processed for February 2024.

The Deputy is enthusiastic to get back in. I remind him that I appreciate that the Minister is not here. The Deputy does get an enormous amount of speaking time relative to Government backbenchers. The way the Dáil is structured now allows great opportunity to enable Deputies to have significant time, whereas Government backbenchers have-----

Deputy Michael McNamara

It is a pity the Minister does not take some of his speaking time.

Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill

Government backbenchers have far less time to have opportunities to contribute, including on Government business. This is the first time that we have delivered such a complex payment structure. Does the Deputy not think it appropriate that the Department should get it right rather than having to go back and forth, which would double the administration and double the slowness? It is better to get it right the first time. I appreciate the points that were made.

Weather Events

Deputy Martin Kenny

As the Minister of State will know, what happened in Leitrim village on Sunday afternoon was an absolutely freak incident that nobody could prepare for. A finger could not be pointed at anyone or any of the businesses regarding what happened. It was just one of these incidents that occasionally occur. According to Met Éireann, in certain weather conditions, small tornados can occur. This tornado ran through Leitrim village. It came up the river and tossed a whole lot of trees and took roofs off houses. It took large branches off trees and dumped them on top of a number of cars. A lady was sitting in the front seat of one of those cars. Had it been facing the other way, she would certainly have been killed. It was a very dangerous situation. The tornado cut a track of about 30 or 40 metres through the village and destroyed practically everything in its path. It also tracked along the river into the harbour area. Boats were upturned along the jetties. The tornado caused devastation everywhere it went and travelled almost a kilometre through the countryside as far as the GAA club, which was also damaged.

The issue that arises relates to the assistance that can be given to people in the circumstances. I acknowledge the visits of the Taoiseach and all the other public representatives who came to show solidarity with the community in the context of the major difficulties it faces. The Taoiseach said he was keen that assistance would be provided. However, I wanted to raise the matter here in order that we might know it is going to happen and that we can follow up on matters in that regard. There is a humanitarian assistance scheme for householders who are in difficulties as a consequence of such incidents. How can people access that and what mechanism is in place to ensure it can happen?

A number of businesses have been practically devastated as a consequence of the tornado. I refer, in particular, to the Leitrim Inn, which is a large restaurant and pub that has had a couple of difficult years as a result of Covid-19 and other issues. The Leitrim Inn is not that long in operation and now it has the damage done by the tornado on top of the other problems. All of this as Christmas approaches. A number of other businesses were also badly affected. They need to reroof their premises. There are water leaks, many windows were blown out and so on. Insurance of course will play a major role in this but we fight about insurance companies in here all the time. Apart from everything else about them, they are slow. They are slow to come out to assess, slow to provide the funding that people require and they use every excuse possible not to pay. Ministers and the Government need to put their shoulders to the wheel and assist people. The area affected by the devastation is not huge. Thank God nobody was killed or hurt. However, we need to ensure that funding is put in place to assist those affected. I also want to commend the local authority and all the emergency services, including the local fire brigade, and other services that rushed to the scene to help. The local authority has done a great deal of work to clean up the area and get everything sorted out. That costs money. The local authority is stretched for funding and will need assistance.

While we are all grateful that nobody was hurt, Carrick-on-Shannon has an ambulance station. On the morning of the tornado, as on so many other occasions, there would have been no ambulance available in Carrick-on-Shannon had somebody been seriously hurt. There was no ambulance available in Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle, Loughglynn or anywhere else in the area. The nearest ambulance would have had to come from either Sligo town or Longford. There is an ongoing situation in south Leitrim in this regard. We have a serious problem with the ambulance service. We need investment in that service because when these incidents happen, everybody flies to the assistance of people. However, having an ambulance in place is crucial. We do not have one at the moment. That needs to be addressed.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

I thank Deputy Kenny for raising this matter. It must have been a frightening incident for the people of Leitrim. I thank the Deputy for providing me with the opportunity to update the House of the current position.

I will begin by clarifying that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is designated as lead Department for co-ordinating the response at national level to several scenarios including severe weather and flooding. The national director for fire and emergency management within the Department is tasked with co-ordinating the response to these emergencies. The director works closely with Met Éireann, local authorities, which are the lead agencies in the context of the response to severe weather events, Departments and other agencies. This is done in light with procedures developed over the years and set out in the document Strategic Emergency Management National Structures and Framework.

In advance of Storm Elin and Storm Fergus, the national directorate for fire and emergency management crisis management team held a technical briefing on Saturday, 9 December for all local authorities to provide the most up-to-date forecast picture of both storms from the Met Éireann duty forecasters.

Storm Fergus was named by Met Éireann at 11.45 a.m. on Sunday, 10 December. An orange status wind warning was issued along the west coast for Clare, Galway, and Mayo. Status yellow wind warnings were also issued for Cavan, Dublin, Kildare, Leitrim, Longford, Louth, Meath, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo and Westmeath, with potential impacts of difficult travelling conditions and debris and loose objects being displaced.

Leitrim village, which is close to the borders of Roscommon, was struck by a tornado on Sunday, 10 December at 12.45 p.m. This was a high-impact sudden onset emergency localised to Leitrim village. Extremely high wind speeds caused structural damage to buildings, with further damage caused by flying debris affecting vehicles in the town. While four people suffered minor injuries - three were taken to hospital - thankfully no serious injuries were reported in connection with the tornado event. Prior to the tornado, intense lightning advancing on the leading edge of Storm Fergus had been affecting the west and north west.

The fire service arrived at the scene at 12.55 p.m., with appliances from Drumshanbo and Carrick-on-Shannon fire brigades present, and co-ordinated the immediate response to the incident with An Garda Síochána. The fire service incident commander at the scene described the incident as a significant emergency, with damaged premises, vehicles and dangerous conditions at a number of locations in the village. The fire service carried out a number of operations to make the scene safe, including securing buildings in advance of the further strong winds forecast due to Storm Fergus. The road into Leitrim village was closed overnight on Sunday, with local diversions put in place as local authority personnel continued to deal with the immediate clean-up and securing of the damaged premises. The housing section of the Leitrim County Council assisted affected homeowners with alternative accommodation. Emergency ESB crews continued to work through Monday to make the scene safe. I thank the responding agencies for their professional and prompt response to this event.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has secured supplementary funding from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to contribute towards local authorities' exceptional expenditure directly associated with recent severe weather events. I know the Deputy welcomes this. This funding is provided to meet the unbudgeted costs relating to cleaning up and carrying out necessary immediate works, including exceptional overtime payments, the hire of plant and heavy machinery, the purchase of materials required for the clean-up and the hire of contractors associated with significant severe weather events. This is in recognition of the exceptional nature of activities carried out by local authorities in responding to these types of emergencies and the fact that the costs of these unprogrammed activities could not be foreseen in annual expenditure planning. This practice is considered a vital enabler of the local authority action providing the assurance that availability of resources is not a limiting factor in providing a very effective local response. I will reply in respect of insurance costs and other responses in my next contribution.

Deputy Martin Kenny

I acknowledge the work of the local authority. It is appropriate that additional funding would be given to local authorities in circumstances where they have to deal with situations like this. However, the Government needs to put in place a fund that would be there so the public can access funds as well. I have spoken to people in the area. It is all hands on deck, and people are rushing to help and clean up but they must be paid, fed and looked after while this is ongoing. In many of these situations, they will not have access to funding because they will have to wait a long time to get insurance. We all know that.

The Minister of State said the local authority will be the lead organisation. Should local businesses or the local GAA club go to the local authority for assistance? Where do they go, who is going to co-ordinate in that regard and how we do ensure that this can be delivered in a quick and efficient manner to ensure people can be looked after?

I acknowledge the work of An Garda Síochána in respect of this matter. Gardaí were on the scene. They looked after people and ensured everything was dealt with very well. That is the one thing you get from all these situations in Ireland. People come in quickly, put their shoulders to the wheel and do everything they can go help. However, it will be this week and into the following week that the real impact of this will be felt. I refer here to the financial cost. The people who work in all of these businesses will be scratching their heads wondering whether they will have work coming up to Christmas and whether they will be able to manage. We need to ensure that we put the plans in place. The Taoiseach said he is keen to see it happen, and we want to see it happen. Having ambition is not enough. We need to ensure that funding is put in place. If the Minister of State is saying that the local authority is the lead agency, we need detail about how what will be on offer can be accessed by people.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I commend the work of the local authority. I am not at all surprised that it responded so well. In my previous dealings with Leitrim County Council regarding the bog slide at Drumkeeran, the response was phenomenal and well targeted. It was lucky that the Minister of State, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, addressed the first question. She has raised the issue of insurance with the relevant companies. She stated that they have engaged quickly and that any specific problems should be brought to her.

I will come back regarding what the go-to is in terms of the response. The Taoiseach visited Leitrim village and the surrounding area. I understand that welfare officers from the Department of Social Protection remain on the ground working with Leitrim County Council to provide immediate needs assistance to those affected. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is also liaising with Leitrim County Council to identify affected small businesses and other organisations that may be in need of assistance. It should also be noted that funding for the repair of public infrastructure is undertaken by the relevant Department in line with sectoral responsibility. Capital costs associated with damage to the road network and coastal protection infrastructure, where relevant, are not included as a matter of course and should be dealt with in line with the arrangements outlined.

With regard to the response of An Garda Síochána and the National Ambulance Service, the Ministers for Justice and Health will be in a position to give further and specific detail to the Deputy in this regard. The Office of the Taoiseach and officials from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment are working actively on the ground and will liaise with Leitrim County Council in due course.

I hope this provides some assurance to the people of Leitrim village after what was a devastating event that all agencies of Government are working collaboratively to address the immediate needs and longer term needs arising out of the damage to property and other matters.

Waste Management

Deputy Paul Murphy

Over 20 years have passed since bin charges and the privatisation of refuse collection were introduced. All of our warnings about what that would mean have come to pass. We were defeated in the campaign against privatisation but everything we said has happened. The waivers went, the charges went up to a point where people are now faced with paying over €300 a year, we had full-scale privatisation and a collapse in workers' conditions, recycling levels have plateaued at the level of 2010 and have not increased, one third of households still do not have access to brown bins and the incidence of dumping has increased. It has been a disaster for workers, households and the environment where you have multiple bin trucks on different days going into the same estates. It makes no sense for anyone apart from the profiteering private companies.

There is a growing movement for remunicipalisation of refuse collection, with trade unions and multiple councils, including Dublin City Council, calling for that. Legislation is needed. I do not want the Minister for State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to shirk this and put it back on the councils. The Government needs to take action so this can happen.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Deputy Murphy touched on the fact that performance of the system as delivered by the private sector speaks for itself. It is failing by any objective measure in terms of rates of recycling, coverage of brown bins, the perverse situation with side-by-side collections and the impact of that on efficiency and emissions. The system is failing. I commend the work of the working group set up by Dublin City Council. I know a number of other councillors, including those in Fingal County Council, have supported the call for re-municipalisation. We are getting mixed messages from Government in terms of the measures that are needed to make that happen. Could the Minister of State spell this out?

Deputy Joan Collins

Greyhound's bin charges have increased from €16.50 to €24.47 in 18 months. Panda is increasing annual charges by 8.4% less than a year after it increased its general waste bin charge by 12%. You would expect to see the rest of the waste collection companies following suit soon. The privatisation of our bin service is bad for households but it is also bad for workers. We saw the wiping out of a steady unionised workforce across the country. This is a failure of privatisation. People campaigned against this during the 2000s because we knew this would happen. People were locked up over this. Dublin City Council set up a group on remunicipalisation.

It referred the issue to the IPA, which researched the topic. The results of that work were released last January. It is clear there are legislative barriers to remunicipalisation. A working group has been set up here in the Dáil and we are requesting that this matter be examined and scrutinised in the environment committee.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Like all my colleagues, I call for the remunicipalisation of bin services in our city because this is one of the issues raised most regularly with us on the doorsteps. While I might disagree with some of the narrative about how we got here, I do not disagree that the way forward is certainly not clear. The Taoiseach has indicated that this is within the power of the local authorities. With a very weak local government system, though, we know this is less likely to happen.

We had a unique position in Dublin City Council in that there was no privatisation. Effectively, the council withdrew from the market and sold its list to one provider, without the permission of the people on that list, by the way. It is clear here that the local authorities have the ability to go back into the market, but this should be done with regulation and with the support of the Department.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I thank the Deputies for raising this issue. In Ireland, with the exception of one or two municipal districts, local authorities have all but exited the household market because, in most cases, they could not compete with the prices charged by private entrants. The obligations on local authorities in relation to collecting household waste are set out in the Waste Management Act 1996, as amended, and, in summary, provide that, "Each local authority shall collect, or arrange for the collection of, household waste within its functional area." The obligation to collect or arrange for the collection of household waste shall not apply if: "an adequate waste collection service is available in ... the local authority's functional area", "the estimated costs of the collection of the waste would, in the opinion of the local authority, be unreasonably high", or "the local authority is satisfied that adequate arrangements for the disposal of the waste concerned can reasonably be made by the holder of the waste".

Local authorities are responsible for municipal waste collection and waste management planning within their functional areas. It is open to the chief executive of any local authority to exercise his or her executive function in relation to waste collection to re-enter the waste collection market as direct service providers if they so choose, either alongside existing permitted service providers or subject to making arrangements to replace those providers.

The focus of the Minister, Deputy Ryan, is on achieving our challenging EU recycling targets, such as achieving a municipal solid waste, MSW, recycling rate of 55% by 2025. Seeking to alter the structure of the waste collection market now could be counterproductive to the achievement of those targets. We need to work with all stakeholders to achieve those targets. As they provide the service directly to consumers, waste collection companies are ideally placed to assist in increasing segregation and recycling by both households and commercial premises.

Altering the structure of the market, whether by municipalising waste collection services or adopting competitive tendering, would take several years to implement. Regarding the barriers to overcome, these include the legal issues that must be considered. Among these are constitutional issues, the fact that primary and secondary legislation would be required, competition law, state aid rules, procurement law, and waste collection permit expiry dates, which are up to five years from now. A comprehensive public consultation would also be required, as would the agreement of local authorities. There would also need to be significant capital expenditure by local authorities to prepare for waste collection services. A regulatory impact analysis would also be required, including a cost-benefit analysis to assess the costs and benefits to such an approach. Equally, undertaking this endeavour would likely lead to legal challenges by industry, including on constitutional grounds. The industry might also threaten to withdraw the household waste service and disengage with the process, with potential environmental pollution due to no waste being collected, which could also have consequences for other waste streams, for example, the collection and management of commercial waste.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Are copies of the Minister of State's reply available for everyone? It is practice to have a copy for everyone.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

Yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Go raibh maith agat. Gabh mo leithscéal. I call Deputy Murphy.

Deputy Paul Murphy

How long do we have?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Half a minute.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Right. Regarding the point made by Deputy McAuliffe about exiting the market, these markets were artificially created by the imposition of charges and then tendering out to private services. This is what happened. In terms of the answer from the Minister of State, it is kind of unclear. On the one hand, he kind of points towards the councils and suggests that they maybe could do this, when there is a very clear report from the IPA, commissioned by Dublin City Council, that states legislation is needed. On the other hand, the Minister of State says we need to do all these things, but he will not make a policy commitment. Will the Government do this? Will it commit to investigating these things the Minister of State has said need to be investigated so we can have remunicipalisation?

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I would like to see the joint committee pick up on this issue. The Minister of State has set it out. For me, it was spelled out that there is an ideological fixation, whether it is in the Department or in the Government, which has resulted in setting out hurdle after hurdle. This is not an insurmountable issue. Based on the performance of the existing service, it is clear it is not delivering, is not going to meet the targets and needs to change.

Deputy Joan Collins

What we have to do here is set the principle, and this must be done by the Government, that waste collection must be remunicipalised. Very important issues are at stake here. One is the overseeing of waste management. Waste has a great effect on pollution, water quality in our seas and rivers, and the spread of microplastics, not to mention the waste we export for other countries to deal with. We need public management of waste for the environment as well and I would like to hear this from the Minister of State.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

The Minister of State has crystallised the argument. He said there is nothing to stop Dublin City Council or any other local authority from re-entering the market. Then, he produced a litany of reasons it should not happen. The officials in all our local authorities hear this. They hear the Custom House saying why this cannot happen rather than why it can. We should have more devolved local democracy. We should allow local authorities to make these decisions. They should be decided locally. For more than 200 years Dublin City Council collected the bins. It decided to withdraw that service and it should be empowered to return it.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I completely agree that this should be discussed at the joint committee. I do not think we have enough time here to work it all out. Several different things arise. The first thing concerns what exactly remunicipalisation is. Does it mean that a council hires workers directly, buys bin trucks and goes back to where it was in the past? Does it mean it would outsource the collection to one particular company, so there is competition for the market rather than competition in the market? Will a tender be put out? What exactly are we trying to do?

Second, what are we trying to achieve? What is the problem we are trying to solve in the market now? Several Deputies raised issues. They are worried that we are not going to meet our recycling targets. We are currently meeting all our recycling targets. Our next targets are due for 2025, and I fully expect we are going to meet all those as well. The other question, then, is whether the charges are too high, if we are paying too much for bins and if it would be cheaper if they were remunicipalised. Exactly what problem we are trying to solve should be written down and should be considered. Deputy Collins said that we need to work out what the principle is. We absolutely must do so. I think we need to agree what problem we are trying to solve, where we are trying to get to, what remunicipalisation is and how we want to go about it.

As I said, chief executives in councils can decide they want to run their own waste collection services, if they wish to do so. They would, however, be running that in parallel with the existing private companies. They would be competing with the private operators. It is another question if we say we want to stop private operators from collecting waste. The Deputies know that in the past the Dublin local authorities got together and attempted to prevent private operators from collecting waste. They were legally stopped and told they did not own the waste householders put out and if householders wished to pay a private collector to collect their waste, they could.

There are different things in play here. If we want to change that situation I referred to and set up a situation where it is illegal for householders to hire somebody else to take away their waste, even if that is cheaper than the local authority, then we will need legislation. We would need to discuss this issue at length. There are many problems involved. I outlined them all. They are not imaginary problems. Previous Ministers have tried to do this and have not succeeded.

Bus Services

Deputy Bríd Smith

I thank the Minister of State for taking this question at the last minute. I do not think he is responsible for this area but he may well be familiar with it as a Minister of State from the Green Party who should and would, I think, have an interest in developing public transport systems to take cars off the road, to decarbonise our economy and to improve public transport. In general, then, I start by saying I am not opposed to the BusConnects system in principle. If it improves public transport and encourages people to get out of their cars, all the better. The problem we have is with the actual results of the new routes being implemented. This is not the revolution we were promised in bus transport. Unfortunately, I believe we are seeing negative aspects and impacts on passengers and on communities, particularly on vulnerable cohorts within those communities.

In the latest phase of BusConnects in my constituency, in Dublin 10 and Dublin 12, the old 17 and 18 bus routes have been scrapped. The Minister of State may have heard a discussion about this on the radio. They have been replaced with the S2 and the S4 and a new route 74. Like many other phases in the BusConnects plan, these routes are not exactly the same and people accept this. The claim made by the National Transport Authority and BusConnects, however, that these new routes will give people better and wider access to more locations and more frequency really must be challenged.

Some people will now have to transfer to a second or, sometimes, a third bus to make a journey they used to make on one bus, for example, to get from Ballyfermot to St. Louis High School in Rathmines. The 18 bus route used to take people there. The same issue arises with regard to going from parts of Crumlin to Sandymount or a job near Ballsbridge. People now have to make two or three connections. This would be fine if the theory that these buses would be more efficient and plentiful and the transfers would be easy, smooth and timely worked but this is not true. I wish it were true but it is not.

This is not just a teething problem that can be ironed out. Large numbers of people are being stranded and are facing longer delays and longer commutes. For children and elderly people this is particularly difficult. In Dublin 12 and Dublin 10 there is no direct link between Ballyfermot and Rathmines or between Crumlin and Ballyfermot. Schoolchildren, who cannot easily move from their schools, are being affected in particular. Some parents are writing to me in particular about St. Louis in Rathmines because the children have to try to get two buses or a combination of three buses. Whatever journeys they take, the times they have to travel have been dramatically increased under this new routing.

One of the great claims made by Jarrett Walker when he devised the BusConnects plan was that people would be able to access wider parts of the city than ever before. In theory this is true but what about people who need to go to the places they work or regularly travel to for education or other reasons and have been discombobulated by this? I have appealed time and again to the NTA to provide direct links, even on a periodic basis, to compensate the considerable number of people affected.

If we want to make changes in transport for our climate goals and making the city a better place to live through public transport, we cannot leave large numbers of people behind. It is very damaging to the idea that public transport is the alternative and the future for many people. We have seen it happen repeatedly in areas such as Chapelizod. It is a growing village with many more people moving into it but the services have been cut to bits. We are also seeing it happen in places such as Crumlin, Ballyfermot and Drimnagh.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank Deputy Smith for raising this issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Ryan. I want to clarify that the Minister for Transport has responsibility for policy and overall funding in relation to public transport but neither the Minister nor his officials are involved in the day-to-day operation of public transport services. The statutory responsibility for securing the provision of public passenger transport services nationally rests with the National Transport Authority. The NTA works with the public transport operators who deliver the services and who have responsibility for day-to-day operational matters.

That said, I reassure the Deputy that the Government is strongly committed to providing all citizens with reliable and realistic sustainable mobility options, and public transport plays a key role in the delivery of this goal. To support this objective, in budget 2023 the Department of Transport received €563 million of funding for public service obligation, PSO, and TFI Local Link services. This was an increase from €538 million in 2022. More recently, under the new budget for 2024, a funding package of €613 million has been secured for public service obligation and Local Link services. This includes funding for the continuation of the 20% fare reduction on PSO services, the young adult card on both PSO and commercial bus services, and the 90-minute fare until the end of 2024. Funding has also been secured to support new and enhanced bus and rail services next year.

As the Deputy is aware, the Government is committed to improving bus and rail public transport and is backing up this commitment with significant investments across the network. This includes the continued roll-out of BusConnects. The latest phase of the BusConnects network redesign in Dublin, phase 5B, commenced on 26 November and involved the introduction of new southern orbital, radial and local routes. The S2, 74 and L25 routes are operated by Dublin Bus and the S4, S6, S8, W2 and L55 routes are operated by Go-Ahead Ireland. Phase 5B represents an increase in service levels of approximately 80%, which makes it one of the most significant changes under the network redesign to date. With the introduction of these new services, as of 26 November, routes 17, 17D, 18, 61, 75, 75A, 76, 76A and 175 ceased operation. I understand that information booklets were delivered to households in the areas affected by the launch of this latest phase of the BusConnects programme and an extensive media and public relations campaign has begun.

With respect to the specific queries regarding issues with the new BusConnects services in Dublin 10 and Dublin 12, it is important to note that UCD will be served by the new orbital routes S4 and S6, which will run every ten minutes and every 15 minutes, respectively. Other existing routes, such as the 39A, 46A, 145 and 155, will continue to run. Route S4 provides a direct connection via Clonskeagh to Milltown for the Luas Green Line and then to Rathgar and Terenure for connections with high-frequency services on routes 14, 15, 15A, 15B and 16. These connections are either new or much more direct than the route 17, which looped southward between UCD and Terenure. Route S4 then continues via Crumlin to Ballyfermot and Liffey Valley. Route S6 continues to provide the connection to Dundrum, but at higher frequency than route 175, then onward via Rathfarnham to give new direct connections with Templeogue and Firhouse Road and on to Tallaght.

I reassure Deputy Smith that the Department of Transport, the NTA, and the operators are working to ensure the optimised deployment of resources across the public transport network to match changing passenger demand patterns.

Deputy Bríd Smith

The problem we have is that all of this sounds great on paper. The data may show things are improving and capacity is improving. I know, for example, the late-night buses are a big attraction and capacity on them has improved and people are taking them up. Some of the routes are definitely better. However we are still dealing with a lot of traffic congestion in the city. For example, yesterday evening I travelled to the Phoenix Park and it took me an hour and a half to go 5 km. I was going to the protest at the ambassador's residence. It was crazy and I should have walked. Nevertheless, this gives an example of how bad traffic congestion is. Buses get caught up in this because we have not seen the infrastructure and improvements in bus lanes required to make BusConnects the great success it is meant to be. It is like having trains without the train tracks. We have all these trains but no tracks to put them on. At present for many people it is a pure disaster, particularly for people doing regular journeys, as I said earlier, to school or to work or to access the village where they can shop or socialise.

I also have real concerns about the way the National Transport Authority effectively runs Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland and tracks their performance so it can produce all the data that looks good on paper. The reality and experience for the passengers is very different than the data produced by the NTA. Supposedly a bus is meant to operate every 12 minutes but, in reality, there are gaps of about an hour at peak times because of the issues I have just mentioned with the corridors and traffic congestion. Because of the NTA's key performance indicator when the driver comes along after people have been waiting for an hour instead of 12 minutes, he is expected to wait at every bus stop until exactly the time he is meant to leave. If this does not happen, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland are fined very heavily by the NTA. Companies are running bus services but what they are really doing is watching the level of fines instead of looking at the service they should be delivering to the passengers waiting on the streets.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I thank Deputy Smith. Deputy Smith mentioned Jarrett Walker. I remember meeting him with other councillors back in 2016. There has been an extensive period of consultation to try to figure out how we make a better bus route. Many of the bus routes in Ireland are based on the original tram routes, and not electric trams but horse-drawn trams. They even have the same route numbers and stops. The stages on the bus routes were stages where the horses could get some water. We have a very traditional set of bus routes in Dublin which do not reflect population densities and the new communities that have grown up. We needed to organise the bus routes and Deputy Smith probably accepts this.

Deputy Smith understand that when we change around the bus routes, even when we add extra services, there will be people who are inconvenienced and who will not have a direct route where they had one before. We want to make sure does happen is that far more people get a better service. On orbital routes to and from UCD, the peak levels with routes 17 and 175 had five services an hour in each direction, but now, with the introduction of the S4 and the S6, these have doubled to approximately ten services per hour. It should also be noted that communities will benefit from a direct connection to UCD for the first time. With the S4 these include the Long Mile Road, Crumlin Hospital, Ballyfermot, Cherry Orchard, Rathgar and Milltown.

On the S6, these new communities include Firhouse Road, Cherryfield and Templeogue. Areas that up to now had a direct connection to UCD and will require an interchange from 26 November include Citywest, Ballyboden, Knocklyon and parts of Firhouse.

As the Deputy points out, there is a problem with traffic congestion and infrastructure changes, which are the second part of this project, are needed and certainly have to happen. The real-world performance of the project has to continue to be monitored. It is not enough to say there are so many services per hour on the timetable. They have only recently been deployed, but we need to watch their performance data to see that the services are delivering what they are meant to.

Deputy Bríd Smith

They are not, however, and that is why I raised this as a Topical Issue.

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