Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2023

Vol. 1047 No. 6

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

Mother and Baby Homes

Kathleen Funchion

Ceist:

69. Deputy Kathleen Funchion asked the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to provide an update on negotiations with relevant religious orders and pharmaceutical companies regarding their contributions to the mother and baby institutions payment scheme; how many meetings have been held to date; what actions he intends to take outside of these discussions to ensure religious orders and pharmaceutical companies contribute; when he expects the States redress scheme to open; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [54561/23]

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

This question is about negotiations with the various religious orders and, if any, the negotiations with pharmaceutical companies about their contributions to the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. How many meetings have been held to date? What actions do the Minister and his Department intend to take outside these discussions to ensure that religious orders and pharmaceutical companies contribute to the scheme? When does the Minister expect the redress scheme to open?

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes made significant findings about the failings of the State and religious bodies, which together ran mother and baby and county home institutions. The Government believes that all relevant parties have a collective responsibility to respond to the legacy of these institutions.

In May, the Government approved my proposal to appoint Ms Sheila Nunan to act on my behalf in leading negotiations with religious bodies that had a historical involvement with mother and baby institutions. This was with a view to securing a financial contribution towards the cost of the payment scheme and it followed on from a series of meetings I held with the congregations and other religious bodies. These negotiations, while ongoing, are being treated as confidential. A full report will be provided to the Government once the negotiations are concluded.

With respect to the pharmaceutical companies, following the publication of the commission of investigation’s final report, I had a meeting with Glaxo Smith Kline, GSK, the lead entity in many trials, and conveyed my view that all relevant parties have a moral and ethical obligation to take appropriate action in response to the report. I urged them to consider the failures laid bare in the commission’s report and respond appropriately, given their corporate responsibilities. Ultimately, it is a matter for GSK to decide what action it takes or remedy it offers, having considered the commission’s findings. I am aware that GSK has since publicised arrangements for persons wishing to access personal information which may be contained in their corporate archives.

Intensive work is under way to establish the administrative systems and structures required to open the payment scheme to applications. The conclusion of this work is an absolute priority for me and the Department and my officials are working to ensure the scheme can open in quarter 1 of 2024.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

The reason I raise this issue is that Sheila Nunan was appointed in July. Is that correct?. Six months have passed since then. It is frustrating for people who are listening to this, especially as the religious orders played such a role. I accept that it was ultimately the responsibility of the State and that is key. However, it is difficult to even think that someone had to be appointed to handle the negotiations. They have to acknowledge their role. They have acknowledged their role by publicly apologising and the same is the case for the pharmaceutical companies.

Can we look at other models? There was a similar situation in Australia, where the possibility of amending the legislation on the Statute of Limitations there was looked at to force the religious organisations to accept that they would spend years in court and that, ultimately, people would be owed money. We need to look at something like that. I accept that person was appointed in good faith and, as a former trade union official, I accept it is not always possible to talk publicly about negotiations, but we are six months down the road and we have not heard anything about what is happening. Are any figures on the table? Is money being discussed? It is important for people to know. I apologise to An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for going over time.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I recognise the frustration about not much being said publicly about this. However, as the Deputy alluded to, it is a negotiation process and any negotiation process where little bits of information slip out during the process is one that parties will not engage with. I am not providing a blow-by-blow account because it is the best way to get a resolution, although I recognise that leads to frustration. This process will end and a report on the offers of a contribution that have been made will then come before the Government. At that point, the Government will have to make a determination on whether we see the offers as acceptable. If we do not, we will have to consider our options. However, it is appropriate that we allow the negotiations to take place and see what offers come in, while reserving the right to take other actions if we are dissatisfied.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

I welcome that the Minister would potentially consider other options and the fact that a report is coming. That is information people were not aware of to date.

What is the timeframe? Negotiations cannot go on indefinitely, even with the best will in the world on both sides. It is unfair. The cynical part of me would ask whether the religious organisations are just pushing out the clock in this. That does not even get into the fact that the pharmaceutical companies are not included. Has the Government looked at other ways, or will it when the report comes back on the religious organisations, to ultimately force those two groups to pay up what they should for the horrific human rights abuses they inflicted on people?

On the timeframe, the Minister said he is working to get the administrative part up and running. I will also give the Minister the opportunity to reiterate to survivors that they do not need legal assistance. We have spoken about this before. It seems to keep coming up. We are still getting worried phone calls. Will the Minister take the opportunity to say to people that they do not need to go down that road? They can also contact representatives' offices.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy for highlighting that point. No legal advice is required and no former resident needs to hire a solicitor to access the scheme. Certain companies are advertising it. It is not necessary. When the scheme opens, there will be an extensive public information campaign. We will let people know when it is open and how to apply. Assistance and advice will be available for people through the office set up to give advice to people on how to apply.

Regarding the other points the Deputy raised, I hope we will have a clear and final conclusion to the negotiations in the first half of next year. I am engaging with Ms Nunan and getting updates on how the negotiations are going. However, in agreement with her, my sense is that it is best not to drip-feed pieces of information out. There will be a conclusion and a report, which will be brought to the Government. The Government will make a final determination about whether what is being offered is acceptable. As I said before, if it is not acceptable, the Government will have to consider its options.

Children in Care

Matt Shanahan

Ceist:

70. Deputy Matt Shanahan asked the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if he will outline any new strategy development in his Department that deals with foster children and the challenges facing foster parents, particularly in relation to social security entitlements with respect to pension contributions (details supplied). [55037/23]

Deputy Matt Shanahan

My question relates to any strategy development in the Department that deals with foster children and the challenges facing foster parents, especially with respect to social security entitlements and pension contributions.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

The Deputy asked this question in the context of the Young Ireland: the National Policy Framework for Children and Young People strategy that was recently published. It was launched by my Department on 21 November this year. This new policy framework covers the period 2023 to 2028 and envisages an Ireland which fully respects the rights of children and young people. Young Ireland was informed by consultation with children, young people, professionals and parents, as well as recent data and evidence about the issues facing children and young people, including children in foster care.

The framework sets out key actions for Government across a range of issues affecting children and young people.

Three key actions in the national framework relate to alternative care, including foster care. These are: action 40, services for children and young people in care and aftercare; action 41, financial support for foster care; and action 42, innovation in care and aftercare. Action 41.3 relates to raising the basic rates of the foster care allowance. It was a priority of mine to secure a meaningful increase to the allowance in order to support the vital work being carried out by foster carers.

As outlined in budget 2024, there will be a €75 increase for children aged zero to 12 and a €73 increase in the €353 rate for children aged 12 and over. This increase will take place over two phases, a €25 increase from 1 January 2024 and the remaining increase to be paid from 1 November. These increases mean that foster carers will receive over €1,700 in additional funding per child over the course of 2024. This means that in 2025 foster carers will receive an additional €3,900 over the course of the full year.

The framework sets out an ambitious roadmap for actions for children, including those in foster care. I look forward to working constructively and effectively with Tusla and my colleagues, including the Minister for Social Protection, on the actions contained within the national framework, which will continue to improve the range of supports available for children in foster care and the foster carers who support them.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Deputy Canney and I, along with other members of the Regional Group, met representatives of foster families some weeks ago. There are very distinct challenges in the sector, not least access to pension entitlements. The Minister has had some engagement on this. It seems extraordinary that women who left the private sector workforce and took on foster care were not advised that they should have tried to regularise their stamps or were not given an opportunity to do so. We spoke to one foster lady who has arrived at 68 years of age and has now retired. She has no access to a contributory pension and a recognition for the 30 years of fostering she did. There does not seem to any pathway for her to access any kind of increased social security support. I do not think that is adequate. I understand there are 5,800 children in foster care at the moment. I ask the Minister to respond to a specific question. How much are we paying, on average, for children in residential foster care? I have been advised that we could be paying anywhere from €1,500 to €10,000 per week. Could the Minister respond to me on that?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

Is the Deputy talking about residential care?

Deputy Matt Shanahan

Yes, residential care.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I will come back to the Deputy with the exact figures. My recollection is that on an annual basis, we are looking at about €17,000 per year for foster care. The figure for residential care is over €100,000. This is without talking about the value for the child, but in terms of pure value for money foster care is of much more benefit to the State. It is, of course, for the vast majority of children far more beneficial. That is why I have taken significant actions to support foster care in terms of the change to the allowance, in particular. We have also engaged quite extensively with the Department of Social Protection on the pension issue. I will come back to the Deputy with the explicit figures on the difference in annual cost to the State for foster care versus residential care because it is a dramatic difference.

Deputy Matt Shanahan

It is important to recognise the challenges faced by foster families. Despite the increases, which are very welcome, the Minister is well aware that when some foster families take on children with additional needs, they have to source services privately. Like any parent, when they look at a child, having been told it will take two, three or four years to get an National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, assessment and access occupational therapy, speech and language therapy or whatever else, they will decide to seek services privately.

There is, at times, an inherent bias in the State in the way we value the private sector. I do not like to call it the private sector, because these are not commercial arrangements. Foster caring is a vocation for those who take it on. In essence, I am not sure the State fully recognises their contribution. The Minister correctly pointed to the benefits of being part of a single family, with perhaps siblings, rather than being in a residential setting. That is not to disrespect that form of care, but there is a vast difference.

Early childcare is related to this. We do not value what the private sector envelope is providing in terms of supports that the State, as the Minister highlighted, would pay ten times more for. We need to change that aspect of how we deal with people. I refer in particular to pension entitlements, which need to be sorted out for these people.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I disagree with the Deputy. The State very much values the work that is being done in terms of foster care families across the country and the importance of supporting that. I have worked to support that in terms of the significant increase in the allowance I outlined earlier.

I met Movement for Change in Foster Care and the Irish Foster Care Association, IFCA, in the past number of months. The issue of the pension is important. In the national framework I referred to earlier, Young Ireland, action 41.2 commits the Department of Social Protection to consider the credits available to foster carers for periods of time spent caring, with a view to supporting eligibility for the State pension, and also refers to including foster carers in the proposed changes to the attributable contributions of long-term care when caring for an incapacitated dependent. When we met the IFCA and Movement for Change in Foster Care, we discussed some of the lack of clarity for foster parents in terms of what is available right now and how they can align their contributions with existing contributions. We are working with social protection, initially at least, to provide greater clarity and better information on what steps a foster carer can take to resolve potential gaps in pensions.

Community Development Projects

John Brady

Ceist:

71. Deputy John Brady asked the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to provide details on what criteria are in place to determine that the Government grant funding to communities to assist with integration is meeting community requirements, and that the funding allocations are being targeted at the areas of greatest need; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55623/23]

Deputy John Brady

What criteria are in place to determine that the grant funding provided to assist communities with integration is meeting the needs of communities? Are the funding applications being targeted to the areas of greatest need?

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Joe O'Brien)

I thank the Deputy for the question. My Department administers a number of funding programmes addressing integration in communities on the basis of annual or multi-annual open calls for funding. The Department will also offer several funding calls of a similar nature in 2024. Each of these funding calls is run in a transparent and competitive manner, with applicants given detailed guidance on the particular criteria of each call. When assessing applications to open calls, the assessors consider the need to achieve a balanced geographical spread of activities. The assessment process is robust, with the use of an external evaluator to evaluate the process undertaken for the call to ensure that the scoring of projects is as fair and accurate as possible.

On completion of all projects, the grant recipients are required to submit full project reports. This ensures that projects achieve their stated goals in assisting with integration in communities. Each call for funding has targeted themes and will sometimes focus on special priorities, and these may change year to year so that services can be more targeted. This year, my Department has managed a number of successful integration funding calls on that basis.

The communities integration fund has been in place since 2017 and since its inception has supported over 820 projects with grant funding totally €3.82 million. This year, the fund awarded 111 organisations once-off grant payments with a total value of just over €500,000. That call ran in March this year. The international protection integration fund has a goal to support communities across Ireland so they can play a role in promoting the integration of international protection applicants. This year, 71 projects have been awarded approximately €1.2 million.

The national integration fund has the goal of supporting communities across Ireland to play a greater role in promoting integration and is open to organisations operating at regional and national level. Approximately €750,000 is committed per year, subject to the availability of funds. The minimum grant is €25,000, but the amount can go up to €200,000. In addition to these, we will announce a new grant award system under the national integration fund and the EU asylum migration and integration fund early in the new year.

Deputy John Brady

I thank the Minister of State. I concede that there are many challenges facing the Minister of State and Department, given the enormous brief they have. It is important that those who come and seek refuge in the State, in particular those who are successful in getting international protection, are properly integrated into our communities. We have seen many examples across Europe and elsewhere of failures to integrate communities and the massive pressures that creates within those communities.

It is critically important that the moneys being put into integration are properly targeted. I have spoken to many communities who might be resistant or have concerns about refugees coming into their communities. They cite those concerns because of the failures in services, facilities and amenities. What audits, if any, are being carried out by the Department to ensure that the money is being properly targeted to address the deficits in their areas that communities are highlighting?

Deputy Joe O'Brien

The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has a geographical focus for grant applications, as I outlined. I am also a Minister of State in the Department of Rural and Community Development, which provides social inclusion and community activation programme allocations and allocations to volunteer centres. Going into 2024, we are specifically looking at the numbers of new arrivals, both international protection applicants and Ukrainians in each local development company area. That is a refresh in our data from last year in terms of where we focus people on the ground, that is, community workers. We have the community recognition fund. That specifically examined the numbers of new arrivals from 12 months ago. The numbers are largely accurate. That fund is being rolled and is helping to increase infrastructure across communities. Those two mechanisms are especially targeted in terms of numbers that have come in the last 18 months.

Deputy John Brady

I appreciate that there are a number of different elements when it comes to funding. We might drill down into the funding that is being allocated. The Minister of State cited the 800 different projects that were invested in since 2017 through the community infrastructure fund. In the recent round of funding, there was a 53% deficit in demand for that scheme. There was a 67% disparity in the context of the Ireland Against Racism fund. That is a major deficit in circumstances where communities are putting together applications and applying for funding and where the level of funding that is available falls short of what is being sought and is needed. Given the huge pressures within communities and the massive challenges for the Department, it is critical that an audit is carried out to ensure that the money that is being spent is being properly targeted and second, that the appropriate level of funding is going in to address the many deficits within communities to ensure the people who need our protection are being welcomed with open arms into our communities.

Deputy Joe O'Brien

As I mentioned, there are checks and balances. There is independent oversight of the grant process. The Deputy’s figures are based on the number of requests for funding. There is another cut-off point in terms of viable projects as well. Sometimes we get requests for funding where the projects do not add up in terms of what has been put forward. That is where the independent set of eyes comes into play. That said, we need as many resources as we can for community projects. The Ireland Against Racism fund is a good example of that. We initially only allocated €1 million to that fund. We managed to get a further €300,000. I am fighting to get as much as I can for all those strands because they all do invaluable work.

Integration is a multifaceted issue. The Department of Education has its own school areas in relation to the numbers of pupils involved, the HSE has its own metric to measure demand and the National Transport Authority has its methods of measuring demand for its services as well. They are all in the mix too and there are processes at play too.

Disability Services

Seán Canney

Ceist:

72. Deputy Seán Canney asked the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if he is aware of the lack of services available in children's disability network team, CDNT, 7 area due to the shortage of staff and specialists; to provide a schedule of the staff in place and a schedule of the staff levels required to run the level properly; when the full complement of staff will be in place; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [54562/23]

Deputy Seán Canney

This relates to CDNT 7 in Tuam. At the moment, parents are protesting outside the office because services are not being provided and the people are not in place. I have received an enormous amount of emails from distressed parents because the services are just not there. There was a fanfare of opening the new building but it is empty. What will be done by the Government to get this rectified?

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

The CDNTs in community healthcare west provide support, care and therapy to children and their families across Galway, Mayo and Roscommon.

I will first address the Deputy’s comment to the effect that it is an empty building. Currently, the list of staff includes: one children's disability network manager, CDNM; one grade 5 administrator; two grade 3 clerical officers; 2.3 senior occupational therapists, OTs; one staff-grade OT; one OT assistant; one physio assistant; 2.8 senior physios; one staff-grade physio; 1.8 senior social workers; 0.4 behavioural support therapists; 3.5 senior speech and language therapists, SLTs; 1.9 senior psychologists; and 0.8 preschool liaisons. To me, that is not an empty building. That is the list of staff currently working there. When the Deputy and I attended the opening of that building, the staff shortfall was 38%. It is now down to 28%. It is good to know that in the last couple of weeks, we have managed to recruit a physio assistant and a social worker who started on the team recently. Next week the psychologist will be starting and in the first week in January we will have a senior speech and language therapist which will bring down the deficit to 28%. I accept that is still a long way to go from a full team.

What will make a team complete is the question I am addressing. The team is currently short two staff-grade SLTs, one assistant SLT, three senior OTs, one senior dietician, one behavioural support specialist, a 0.5 of a clinical nurse manager grade 2 and one staff-grade psychologist. I will explain the panels in my next contribution.

Deputy Seán Canney

While I accept the Minister of State’s figures, the reality on the ground is that if someone was to ring the dietician today to seek an appointment, which I did the other day, one would be told that the dietician is on maternity leave - as they are entitled - and will not be back until October 2024 and to contact the disability team. There is no dietician in place.

The forum for parents met recently. I think this is what escalated their concerns because they were given figures including a 54% gap when it comes to speech and language therapists. I have spoken to parents on a one-to-one basis. One family with two children with autism, for instance, was told they were getting a service but they have had no speech and language therapist for five years for one child. In the past year, they got an appointment for a speech and language therapist for the other. That lad is being classed as having a service but he needs a lot more services. There are no case workers. No one is leading these people through the mist in which they find themselves. One of the things they were advised to do was to follow other parents on Instagram to find out how to deal with this. Parents are telling me that is where we are at and that is why they are out protesting in Tuam this morning.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

Both of us, being from the same constituency, have an acute awareness of what is happening this morning in Tuam. I do not find it acceptable in any way that any parent or anybody would be told to go to Instagram to find their solutions.

The family forums that are being set up are an opportunity for the HSE or the lead agency to work with and inform the parents and to break down the barrier, demystify it and ensure there is proper transparency around the staffing levels and what families can accept.

The Deputy asked who leads the team. There is a manager in charge of that entire team at the moment and three administrators assisting on the communication side. Only last week, thanks to the Minister and Bernard Gloster, I got approval to open an expression of interest panel for Donegal, Galway and Waterford. That means that wherever someone is in the country, regardless of where they sit on them, the panels are opened up.

If they would so wish to come and work in Galway, Donegal or Waterford the panels across all of the disciplines are open. Mr. Bernard Gloster and the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, signed off on that last week.

Deputy Seán Canney

I will come back to the basic point. I understand about panels opening up. Parents on the ground do not. The children are not getting the services they require. In some cases they have been getting nothing for years. We all talk about early intervention as the secret to getting on top of disabilities, so to speak. It is not happening. The parents will tell you that. I am not blaming the Minister of State but I am blaming the system we have. Even on the day of the official opening, one of the HSE's people mentioned the number of staff they had there, to be shouted down by other staff within the HSE, saying that was not true and to divide that by two and it might be right. The figures the parents are being given, looking at them, show 40% to 50% vacancies. There is one manager and 740 families in the system. The parents told me it was admitted to them on the day at the forum meeting they had that the staff had the correct contact details for only 100 of those families. I do not blame the staff who are there. They are working under severe pressure. In fairness, that is why we cannot get staff because we do not have the backup for them in terms of administrative staff and all that goes with that. This is for the children. This is Christmas. Let us get it done.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I could not agree more with the Deputy. That is why we are getting it done and why we are using a trial basis in Galway, Waterford and Donegal to see if, by freeing up the panels, we can get those ten posts that are required in Tuam filled, along with all the other CDNTs. PDS has been rolled out for the past two years in Galway with a caseload of 700. I know the people on the ground are working so hard on it, but looking at the staffing levels and taking out administration and everything else, it could be said there is a staffing level of approximately 14. If we were to put 700 children over a 48-week period and work that out, that would be 14 children seen every single week. To be quite honest, the HSE, along with management, need to review their KPIs and look at how they are delivering services, how they are engaging and how exactly they are communicating. To hear they only have phone numbers for 100 children gives me serious cause for worry.