On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Dr. Alex Evans, Professor Brian McKenna, Professor Grace Mulcahy and Professor Jim Phelan who represent the dean of the faculty of agriculture and food science, UCD. Before asking the representatives to commence their presentation, I draw to their attention the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to them. Members are reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on Professor McKenna to make the presentation.
Future of Agriculture: Presentation.
Professor Brian McKenna
I thank the Chairman. I will start by apologising for the absence of Professor Maurice Boland who was due to lead the delegation. He collapsed this morning and is in hospital but, fortunately, is recovering.
On behalf of the joint committee, I wish Professor Boland a very speedy recovery. I am sure I speak for every member in that regard.
Professor McKenna
I thank the Chairman. I am what is now called the principal of the new college of life sciences within UCD. We have come before the committee today to tell its members about the changes we have made within UCD in the areas of agriculture, food and veterinary medicine, a matter in which the committee has an interest. Allied to this is the area of rural environment and development which falls within the remit of the committee. Our presentation will be brief. Members have been circulated with a copy. While I will not go through it slide by slide, I want to outline to the committee the changes we have made.
The changes in UCD have taken place only in recent days. With effect from 1 September, UCD has been completely restructured. We had a system which comprised 11 faculties and close to 100 academic departments spread across a range of disciplines. Two of those faculties, the ones that would have been of interest to this committee, were agri-food and the environment, previously called the faculty of agriculture, and the faculty of veterinary medicine. In common with many universities worldwide, we have gone through a restructuring process whereby we have reduced the number of units within the university. Instead of approximately 100 departments, there are now 35 schools which are clustered in what are called five colleges, of which life sciences is the largest. This is the area in which agriculture, veterinary medicine and the biological sciences have been clustered within the new system.
We are less than two weeks into that new structure and the change occurred for a number of reasons. People in the various areas, particularly that of agriculture and food, which would be of interest to the committee, were dissipated across a large number of departments. My background is in food science. To take the example of the food area, there were staff in food science in the agriculture faculty and staff in food processing in the engineering faculty. People such as Deputy Upton, a former colleague of ours, were located in the science faculty. There were staff in the veterinary medicine faculty, such as Professor Mulcahy who is here with me, who were involved in food safety and in animal health and disease issues. There were staff in rural development who were also in the area of agriculture. These areas were dissipated over a wide range of units and the people were physically and structurally scattered. We were not seen to have critical mass from the points of view of teaching and carrying out research in the particular areas.
The food area is a good example to use to highlight the fact that our colleagues in UCC, who are good friends of ours, were seen to have a much higher visibility in the food area than UCD ever had, despite the fact that we have a similar number of staff and a complementary range of expertise. That is mainly because UCC had been involved in this area longer and it has a faculty of food science and technology. Under the new structure, most of the staff who are involved in the particular areas are gathered into these large schools and this will, one hopes, enable us to better serve the industry.
Agriculture in general has received fairly bad press in recent years and as a result the numbers coming forward to study in the area have declined. As part of this restructuring process, it is interesting to note the phenomenon that this year, for the first time in a number of years, the numbers coming forward to study agriculture have increased. We see this as a hopeful sign for the industry. The clustering of all the staff involved in the food area — those involved in food science, food processing and food safety — and their being based in a single unit will enable them to work more coherently to the benefit of the industry.
In addition to this organisational restructuring, we have also changed the style of all our teaching within the university, not only in agriculture but also in all degree programmes. This means that from now on a student coming to study any subject within the university can take one sixth of his or her programme in any area they choose, be it the area in which they have come to study and become a specialist or any other area. A student studying agriculture can take one sixth of his or her course in the business school and increase his or her business competencies or he or she may study folklore, languages or any other subject he or she wishes. We in UCD have found that this has led to an increased interest in many of our programmes.
We have also restructured our teaching to the extent that all programmes are now modular. That means we can repackage our degree programmes in different ways. We offer a wide range of modules and an element of student choice. This enables us to react rapidly to demand from particular sectors of the industry and to package programmes in different ways to suit the industry. Some people argue that the university has become almost like a supermarket, where students can go up the aisles, so to speak, and select modules and ultimately almost set up their own degree programme. We have not gone that far, although we might end up getting there. We have probably reached the stage where we are starting to repackage programmes almost like the ready meals found in supermarkets. By this I mean that one can get some basic ingredients but also the sauces and various other products packaged effectively in a single unit. We have the flexibility to offer these types of options. That is direction in which we are moving.
We wanted to alert members to the fact that we have changed the way we are doing things and that we have not only brought the areas of agriculture, food, veterinary medicine and the rural environment together into one unit but have also included in the said unit the range of medical areas, comprising medicine, medical sciences, nursing, public health and population science and even physiotherapy. These are all in this one large grouping. This means that in future we will be able to handle topics in a broader way. For example, in the food research area — members will have to forgive me for concentrating on this area but it is the one with which I am most familiar in light of my background — instead of concentrating on the development of new products for the industry, which we will continue to do, we are in a position where we can work on the areas of interaction between food and health, diet and obesity and diet and diabetes and the various other issues which have come to the fore in the media and public perception in recent years.
The message we are bringing forward is that we have reorganised. The new system appears to be working well, although there is much more we can do. We continue to offer the traditional range of degree options we offered in the past, be those the degree options within agriculture or in veterinary medicine, but we also offer students a choice in packaging the programmes into modules or clusters of their choosing.
I did not follow the presentation slide by slide because members have our submission, which gives them some background information on this area. In moving in this direction, we are not promoting a UDI situation of wanting to go it alone. We work closely with Teagasc and other State agencies. We have a formal memorandum of understanding that was signed between the board of the university and the board of Teagasc in the past year. That means we can make joint appointments between the university and Teagasc where people would be given an appointment spread between teaching and research at the university and research at the various Teagasc research centres on a half-teaching-half-research basis or on some other basis. That system is set up and it seems to be working well. It means we have closer linkages with those groups.
There are a few issues not covered in the presentation on which we would be happy to answer questions. If I was to give the committee a message, it is that there are a few other issues we would like to highlight which will arise in Government policy in the agriculture and food area in the new few years.
We will enter a new phase of the national development plan between 2006 and 2013. The research proposals suggested by the chief scientific adviser to the Government, Dr. Barry McSweeney, envisage a doubling of the research expenditure in Ireland between 2006 and 2013. It would increase from €2.1 billion under the current national plan to approximately €4 billion, if that is approved by the Government. As a research based organisation, we have a vested interest in having such a plan approved and would welcome any support the members of a committee of this nature can give. We are also interested in the areas which will be funded. There is a major emphasis in the current national plan on research expenditure in biotechnology and information technology and other Science Foundation Ireland-type programmes on which there is large expenditure. The chief scientific adviser's proposal to the Cabinet is that those areas should be expanded to include more indigenous industry. He has highlighted agriculture and food as an area which should get equal prominence in research expenditure to the two areas already in the national plan. As a research based organisation, we would like that to happen. It would benefit the country in that the outcomes of that research would rely less heavily on the uptake by multinationals in terms of job creation. We also hope it would benefit rural Ireland, particularly if the level and quality of our agricultural and food products both for internal and export consumption can be raised from their current level to a new platform. That will be one of the cornerstones of sustained rural development in the future. I will be happy to answer any questions members may wish to ask.
I thank Professor McKenna for his presentation.
I welcome Professor McKenna and his colleagues from UCD and thank him for his presentation.
As regards funding for research and development, it is critically important that this area be developed. We are looking at Science Foundation Ireland from an international point of view rather than in terms of developing the assets we possess. We have a strong indigenous food industry. It is not as volatile as some of our other industries. Many traditional industries are closing, such as those in Donegal, for example, because of mobility issues. We must scale up production if we want to secure a viable future for agriculture. We will do whatever we can, including raising it with the Minister, to ensure that happens.
The point was made that the number of applicants for agricultural degrees in UCD is on an upward spiral, which is positive. How many are applying to pursue PhDs in research and development? I presume, with the ongoing restructuring, that the college hopes to obtain additional funding for food development. Perhaps Professor McKenna could comment on the challenges facing the food technology area in the future. Teagasc made a presentation recently about the challenges facing the food and medical area in terms of nutrition. It sees that as a critical growth area in the future. Perhaps the delegation could comment on this.
All those connected with the food industry have now been brought under the one umbrella. Are there any plans to bring them under the one roof? I know they are scattered across the campus in UCD. Everyone is under the one roof in UCC and that has an impact in terms of everyone knowing what is happening in the college rather than just knowing what is going on in one department or laboratory.
As regards the multidisciplinary research projects which are either up and running or will be established, what areas will they cover and what challenges will they face?
Would Professor McKenna prefer to answer questions individually or would he object if I allowed two or three members to ask questions together?
Professor McKenna
I am happy to take them whatever way the Chairman desires.
I will take questions from three members together.
I welcome Professor McKenna and his colleagues from UCD. I am pleased that my colleagues are here, as I was a member of UCD for a long part of my academic life. The presentation was interesting because it covered a wide area in terms of the specifics relating to undergraduate teaching. It also emphasised the importance of the research area and its relevance in the future. There have been huge changes in agriculture. Perhaps the delegation could comment on how UCD can specifically adapt to those changes. As regards animal and food production, for example, volumes are no longer quite as significant as they were previously. We are more concerned now about quality. We must look at environmental factors, animal welfare, etc., and how the college might respond to this.
The other significant area is continuing education. The presentation referred to made-to-order courses, refresher courses and upskilling. That is an important area because people want to be able to get an additional package in a specific area for different reasons. Does the delegation see any difficulties which should be addressed in terms of the time required for such people to get back into the system and the availability of funding in order that they can do the courses? Keeping people constantly up to date on new developments is an important area. The college will have an important role in that regard.
It is encouraging to hear that the numbers are increasing in agriculture because there was a decline and the points were not encouraging for a period. It is good that it has stabilised and increased to a certain extent. Are there any specialist areas which might have brought people back into agriculture and made it more significant? Perhaps the delegation might comment on the direct entry process for food science.
The subject of bio-security arose recently in respect of avian flu but it was also raised in other areas. Avian flu is significant because of the possible risk to human health. However, foot and mouth disease, for example, is primarily an economic disease. Does the delegation think we are doing enough in terms of bio-security? In its role as a teaching organisation, does the college feel there is enough information on and awareness of bio-security? Is there anything else the college could do? It is good to see interaction between the colleges. What are the positives arising from that for agriculture and veterinary medicine, given that they are closely linked?
Human nutrition is becoming more important and people are becoming more aware of the issues. Historically, Ireland was not good at providing information on human nutrition. It is important to examine how that process can be linked and to highlight the significance of the roles of agriculture and medicine.
Professor McKenna
I will respond to a number of the questions and my colleagues will reply to the remainder. Deputy Naughten first asked about PhD numbers and so on. It is part of the overall development plan for UCD to double our PhD numbers between now and 2009. Numbers are dependent on research funding because the students are generally aged between 22 and 27 years and are starting to settle down, form relationships and set up their lives. People tend to be unable to carry out research without funding. In other words, we must pay them. The only way we can pay them is if we generate research income for them to work on particular projects. It has worked well in this area because research funding in Ireland has increased significantly since 1994, when the first development plan came on stream with a strong emphasis on research. PhD numbers have increased accordingly, largely because funding was available. It is our intention to double the numbers. If we do not double our research income, we will not double our PhD numbers. That is a fact of life because we must be able to support the students through that critical stage in their lives. They will not come for nothing but it is a case of so far, so good. The signs from Mr. Barry McSweeney, the chief scientific adviser to the Government, are good in that area. We must work on finding out what is the real cost of research. All universities, not only UCD, have been bad at identifying the true cost of research. We are good at defining the cost of bringing somebody additional in to work in a particular area but we are bad at defining the real cost of research. However, we are getting better at it and PhD numbers will, one hopes, increase.
Deputy Naughten referred to the Teagasc presentation and I agree that the interaction between food and health is a critical area. We have begun to move into that area and we have a number of funded research projects, although probably not enough. When one gets involved in administration, one never gets next or near a laboratory, which is an unfortunate side effect of restructuring. In my area, however, I have a research project which I had to farm out to my post doctorate students. The project is examining how fruit drinks can be used to deliver over-the-counter pharmaceuticals. In other words, aspirin and so on could be encapsulated in powder form within an orange or apple drink and, therefore, instead of one having to take a tablet, one could drink, for example, 20 millilitres of a fruit juice. This would be a major advance, particularly in the delivery of such medication to children, and there is a great deal of interest among food companies to become involved in this integrated delivery of products between the food and pharmaceutical industries. This is an area in which a great deal will happen in Ireland in the coming years. We have good food and pharmaceutical industries and we need to develop this interface, which has significant scope. That will work well into the future.
Other issues relating to food and health concern the dietary issues of the day such as obesity and diabetes, which have achieved prominence in the national media in recent years. Significant research is going on in this area, for example, in regard to meal supplements. It is unrealistic to expect all young children and teenagers not to want to go to McDonald's for their burgers, chips and coke. Coca-Cola has an Irish plant. I do not wish to use the company as an example but if this drink can be replaced by something attractive and palatable that will balance the meal, it will be part of the solution. Multinational advertising and so on must be overcome but, nevertheless, there is a route that can be used. Research is taking place in these areas, not only within UCD but also in UCC. That project is a collaboration between ourselves and UCC.
The Deputy asked where multidisclipinary research projects can come into our restructuring. This is where it will have the greatest impact. In UCD and most other universities people traditionally tended to work on site in boxes. Some people called it the silo or bunker mentality. It was a fact of life that people were physically located in different areas within different parts of the structure of the university. Medicine, nursing, physiotherapy, public health medicine and population science are now included in the same units as agriculture and food. The departments are still physically separated because we do not have buildings to move them all in together but we are moving in the right direction. There will be musical chairs involving people and laboratories but it is hoped the relevant groups will be brought closer together.
Deputy Upton asked how UCD would adapt to the changes in agriculture production. Professor Phelan might be better able to address that issue.
Professor Jim Phelan
We are all aware that the number of farmers has been declining at a steady pace in recent years. The statistics illustrate that the number of farmers decreases by approximately 2% each year. The demand for production in agriculture is also decreasing in light of the pressures from the WTO and internationally in terms of competitiveness and so on. That sector of agriculture will continue to experience pressure. I would argue that a dual system of agriculture will emerge, with the development of highly technical agriculture, on one hand, and a much lower, less-intensive type of agriculture, with people combining that type of activity with off-farm activities, something which is steadily increasing, on the other. That type of duality will develop more in the next couple of years. Given the increase in production in agriculture right across Europe, the pressure on it will continue.
In terms of rural development, the challenge is to be able to cater for the fall-out from that activity and to try to ensure that such jobs are retained in rural areas rather than allowing them to drift into the cities, which would have been the case a number of years ago. We must try to provide jobs in the agricultural and non-agricultural sectors if we wish to maintain a balance in our countryside. As stated, I believe the pressures on production agriculture will continue.
Does Professor McKenna wish to comment further?
Professor McKenna
Deputy Upton asked about continuing education, an area that is problematic, given that it is needed as much in the area of agriculture and food as in any other industry. In general — this is not specific to agriculture and food — there is a reluctance on behalf of employers to release employees to take part in such programmes. Some companies are happy to do so but the majority of them are not.
Many years ago, Deputy Upton and I were involved in the running of a master's degree programme in food science specifically for industry. When the programme began, one could not get a place on it unless one was working in the industry. Even then, and during the period in which the programme has been running, we have encountered difficulties with getting industry to release people for a sufficient length of time to complete their upskilling. We need to adopt different models and to package the programme in a different way. It may also be necessary that the programme not be physically located at the university and to provide in-house training programmes for specific companies, perhaps by way of a travelling roadshow. The best way forward may not be to have a specifically UCD-based system but to have a programme involving UCD, Teagasc, UCC, etc. This may be the way we need to address the issue in the future. That, however, is very much a personal view.
The issue of direct entry into agriculture programmes was also raised. The results of direct entry are a mixed bag. Overall, the numbers entering each of the nine different agricultural programmes have increased by more than 10% in the current year. The numbers applying for the programmes have, in some areas, increased by up to 30%. The total numbers within agriculture have increased from 170 to 205 in the current year. Distribution has not been uniform throughout the areas of direct entry. The food sector has benefited in the current year, with 50 people now taking first-year food science. I do not wish to shock Deputy Upton, who has been involved with the programmes for some time. We will have 50 people to deal with at fourth year level if questions of sustainability do not arise. Programme numbers have stood at 25 to 30 for some years. The job market and food industry can cope with that type of output, plus the allied output from UCC and places such as St. Angela's in Sligo. Whether it can cope with a sustained increase to 50 will require more market research before we know the answer.
Regarding bio-diversity and Asian flu, with the joint committee's permission, my colleague, Professor Mulcahy, will deal with those issues.
Bio-security is an important area. Deputy Upton asked if we believed Irish students were receiving a good education and if we were doing enough to inculcate ideas, standards and procedures about bio-security in our veterinary students. I can confidently say our veterinary course provides students with an excellent grounding in dealing with infectious diseases and encompassing bio-security. We are happy on that count. That was reflected in the way in which the veterinarians from the Department of Agriculture and Food dealt with the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001. The country got off lightly on that occasion, due in no small part to the excellent education students received in UCD. Having said that, we are not complacent and are all the time looking to the future. We have ideas on how this area can be advanced.
One such idea, something which should be facilitated by the restructuring in UCD, is the development of interdisciplinarity. This is done at undergraduate level by running joint modules for students of medicine, veterinary medicine, the environment, and animal production and by getting them all talking to each other in order that when they later have to work together as professionals they are used to doing so.
A joint venture between the Department of Agriculture and Food and the veterinary school at UCD, namely, the school of food, agriculture and veterinary science and the centre for veterinary epidemiology and risk analysis, has been a great success. Through this programme people study the new disease risks which may be posed to animal health in Ireland and, consequently, human health. These people are analysing and assessing the risks that may come in the future. We would like to expand the work of that unit and welcome increased co-operation from the Department of Agriculture and Food in that regard.
Members may be aware that the central veterinary laboratory will soon move to Backweston, a superb facility. We would, from a veterinary viewpoint, welcome the opportunity of greater interaction with our colleagues in the central veterinary laboratory in an effort to develop joint research programmes in areas of infectious disease, thereby improving the prospects for bio-security in the country. Surveillance of emerging diseases is also important. The history of infectious disease in animals and humans over the past 50 years illustrates that many of the disease threats that have emerged came from the animal population. For example, HIV may have come from the ape population in Africa, BSE from cattle and avian influenza, the current threat on our doorstep, from birds. To enable us to not just react to these threats but to be proactive and anticipate them, we would like to strengthen our research programmes in the areas of disease surveillance and emerging diseases. Infectious diseases, from a veterinary medicine viewpoint, are of important strategic interest to us. It would also be in the strategic interest of the country to take the threat posed by them on board. We would welcome additional funding in that area.
On the issue of surveillance, new molecular technologies have efficient ways of tracking the source of outbreaks, for example, where a food-borne outbreak of a disease originated or where an airborne virus originated. We can no longer rely on other countries to conduct this sophisticated molecular tracking of disease outbreaks. In previous years we relied on the United Kingdom to do this but it is important that we invest in those areas and safeguard both our animal and human health, which are intrinsically linked.
We welcome the restructuring in UCD. This will be beneficial, particularly in my area which deals with integrating research in animal and human health and how they interact. We want to develop a research programme that will allow us to anticipate threats. We would like to be world leaders in the area.
Professor McKenna
Deputy Upton asked about human nutrition. UCD has always had a strength in animal nutrition but does not claim to have strong expertise in human nutrition, although we are developing this area. TCD has a well established reputation in the area of human nutrition. UCD has made two changes. First is the restructuring which brings us close to our medical people and helps the nutrition area, particularly our linkages with the school of public health medicine within UCD. We have also signed a formal agreement with TCD, UCC and the University of Ulster, Coleraine, whereby we will offer joint course work in the area of food and nutrition to our PhD students. UCD wants greater numbers of PhD students. We also want to move towards a system whereby the PhD, instead of being 100% research-based, will have significant elements of course work. This will not be based on the US model, under which PhD students spend the first year on course work and then three or four years on research. We want to have a set of packages of, for example, week-long courses for the PhD students spread throughout the four years or so of their research work.
Considering the numbers in the food and nutrition area in any of the four universities mentioned, it would not make sense for each university to offer course work programmes for its students because the numbers are relatively small and would not justify running the course. However, the four universities combined would have more than enough students, approximately 200 to 250 PhD students in the area of food and nutrition at any time. We have agreed that we will operate a set of week-long modules to which we all send our PhD students. These modules will be delivered by whichever university has the best expertise in the area. TCD and Coleraine university will probably offer the nutrition module, UCD will offer some food technology modules and UCC may also offer some specialist modules.
It is obviously easier to operate this type of system between TCD and UCD because we are physically close and do not have to shuffle students around the island. The initiative will definitely start between TCD and UCD and an agreement has been signed on this. It has been taken even further. Although it has not been announced, it is proposed that, in the case of graduate work, TCD and UCD will merge their graduate schools and have a single Dublin based graduate school. This will use the attractiveness of Dublin as a location to attract overseas students to come and do their PhDs here in this joint graduate school owned by both Trinity and UCD. This proposal is at the stage where it has been agreed by the provost of TCD and the president of UCD but it has not been ratified by either of the boards. I know these proceedings are public but I would appreciate if, in so far as we can, we do not talk about that proposal, which is likely to be newsworthy when it is announced within the next couple of months. Our objective is to work in collaboration with relevant institutions on what we cannot do on our own, whether with TCD, Teagasc or some other body.
Deputy Naughten asked whether we would get people under one roof. Dr. Evans has been working on that area and may wish to say a few words on it.
Dr. Alexander Evans
: It has been correctly pointed out that we have shaken ourselves up and come up with one school. However, the question remains as to whether that school will be under one roof. Tomorrow we start the process of deciding on the best model and the best shake-up for it. The food area is a good example of the process involved. Our engineers are in Earlsfort Terrace, our veterinary skills are in the new veterinary building and our agriculture and food science people are in the agriculture building. One of our aims, if we are to make a difference, is to bring those people together under one roof.
The question was asked about multidisciplinarity in our research projects and how coming together benefits us. I have been trying to think of an example and have come up with animal nutrition, where some colleagues are trying to modify the diets of animals to alter the slurry they produce to reduce nitrates and phosphates. There is a link between animal nutrition and a direct effect on the environment through a strong connection between animal production and environmental issues. Within the school, we can also keep a close eye on animal health through the discussions Professor Mulcahy mentioned, and in the areas of diseases, zoonoses and producing high quality foods. Those involved in the area of animal nutrition are also working on feeding animals to produce beef that is friendly to the human cardiovascular system. We will also work on taking food forward through the food science area in terms of packaging, traceability, production, presentation and marketing.
While restructuring has been a brave move on the part of UCD, it offers enormous opportunity for disparate areas to come together. If we are to make a difference in research and increase the number of our PhD students, we must develop our strengths and focus on novelty. Coming under one roof in closer association with each other will help our multidisciplinary approach to our research.
I welcome the representatives from UCD and thank them for briefing and updating us on the faculty's position. The discussion has been very informative.
At a meeting yesterday concerning veterinary medicines and prescriptions, it was pointed out in no uncertain terms that in parts of the country it is impossible to get a veterinary surgeon. The delegates have said that numbers studying in the faculty of agriculture have increased but can they comment on the situation regarding veterinary medicine? My understanding is that most of the students are now female. Is the college satisfied that it is not responsible for an inadequate number of veterinary surgeons to supply a service to the farming community in parts of Ireland? How do the delegates see this issue being resolved?
I am interested in rural development, a lovely term which we hear bandied about. There are certain arguments as to where the EU rural development budget should be spent. The farming community would maintain that it should go directly to it, perhaps to assist in breeding better types of animals. However, others believe it should have nothing to do with the farming community and they consider it in terms of landscape maintenance, which is the role they see for farming families in the future. What is UCD's view of rural development into the future?
Earlier this year members of the committee visited UCC and, following that, we also visited Teagasc's Moorepark institute in Fermoy. Professor McKenna mentioned the college's relationship with Teagasc and I ask him to expand on this. Teagasc is very much in decline in rural Ireland, with offices being closed down. I ask him to comment on the advantages to the farming community and whether he has any practical or hands-on relationships that could be of benefit to it.
The important questions have been asked. I have questions on two subjects which our visitors may not be in a position to address. Why must the majority of equine medicines be imported?
My second question relates to GM foods and the impact on food production and human welfare. Has UCD carried out any research on the growing use of GMOs, particularly for human consumption? Can anybody say with absolute certainty that the soil will not become contaminated by growing GM foods? If we look forward ten or 20 years when the damage might have been done, how will we be able to get back to where we are?
Professor McKenna
I wonder what order to take the questions. Perhaps Professor Mulcahy might talk about the veterinary medicine prescriptions and the fact that parts of the country do not have adequate veterinary cover.
There is clearly a problem with the availability of veterinary practitioners in certain rural areas. We are not unique in this regard. Exactly the same thing has happened in the United Kingdom, particularly Scotland. The UK authorities have recognised that there is not enough veterinary manpower available. They are particularly worried about this shortage in the event of, for example, another outbreak of foot and mouth disease. The veterinary surgeons on the ground are the foot soldiers when it comes to surveillance in epidemiology and spotting diseases in the first place. The UK Government has established the veterinary research and training initiative which aims to increase veterinary manpower and particularly to increase the number of veterinary surgeons with research training. Considerable research and development funds have been invested in the veterinary schools in the United Kingdom to beef up veterinary manpower in this regard.
The problem of availability of vets in rural Ireland stems from a number of different sources. My colleague, Professor Phelan, will attest that the economics of farming have changed. In some cases it is not economic to maintain a practice in certain rural areas unless it is single-handed in nature. The stresses and strains of sole practitioners needing to provide 24-hour cover are enormous. There has been a trend to move away from this area of practice. Many vets who were previously farm animal practitioners have found it easier and much more profitable to go into small animal practice. With increasing affluence in Ireland, we have seen the same trend as in the United Kingdom. People are now willing to spend a considerable amount of money on their pets. For example, we have an MRI scanner in the veterinary hospital in UCD each Saturday. It costs approximately €1,000 to have a dog scanned. However, many people now have pet health insurance. Therefore, this is quite a popular service. This is the first economic reason.
It is not all negative because veterinary surgeons have reacted to this change. The nature of the farm animal practice is changing. It is not so much about treating individual sick animals and providing a fire brigade service; it is all about herd help and preventative medicine. I believe and hope we will end up with a smaller number of veterinary practices with a greater number of participating vets. Such practices may serve larger areas but will provide a much more planned and preventative service. For example, instead of being called out to treat a calf with diarrhoea — perhaps caused by parasites — they can be on hand to provide a certain number of hours' service each year to the farm to prevent parasite problems occurring in the first instance. There are some very good case studies and examples of this in the United Kingdom, where the vet is not paid on the basis of a call-out but rather gets a certain amount of money each year to provide such a planned herd health programme. Veterinary Ireland has invested a considerable amount in this concept and many of its members now undertake herd help training programmes, in which many of us in UCD have participated as trainers. This is another aspect.
I am not sure why the female to male ratio should be of concern. We are only in the ha'penny place and trotting after our colleagues in the United Kingdom where approximately 90% of the veterinary entrants are female, which seems to be a worldwide trend. We would need a sociologist to address the question fully. I am sure we will return to the subject in time.
There was also a question about equine medicine. There is a problem with medicines for horses, which has arisen because EU legislation has designated the horse as a food animal. Under such legislation, any medicine used in a food animal must have a minimal residual limit, MRL, defined. For the drug companies to produce such an MRL takes considerable testing and investment in resources. Essentially, they have established MRLs for many of the food species — cattle, sheep, etc. However, many of the equine drugs have fallen off, as they have not done set MRLs for horses. I believe agreement will need to be reached at EU level that where horses will not be used for food production — for example, in the case of sport horses — derogations or exemptions can be granted so that these medicines can be used in horses without establishing the MRLs. Many of my colleagues in equine practice are concerned about this matter, on which I agree with the Senator.
Does Professor Mulcahy believe Deputy Upton was foolish to enter politics?
She is doing a great job.
I do not want to return to my old job any time soon.
Professor McKenna
The next question was on rural development and I believe Professor Phelan would be the most capable person to respond.
Professor Phelan
The core of the question related to the conflict between agriculture, on the one hand, and rural development, on the other. I was asked about UCD's view of rural development. When we consider rural development, we see agriculture as a critical component of it. We do not see rural development as being something that lies outside agriculture, nor do we see agriculture as being one element and rural development as something else. Rural development is about developing livelihoods in rural areas and developing anything that can contribute to those livelihoods. UCD would not strongly subscribe to the aesthetic component of rural development being, as the Senator stated, about landscape maintenance. In our view, rural development is about creating rural livelihoods that are sustainable in the longer term. While agriculture is a critical component of what is happening in rural areas, we need to recognise not only that it is not the only component but also that it is a declining component. I would like to cite some figures for the committee's benefit.
Agriculture accounts for 41% of the household incomes of full-time farmers. If one removes EU subsidies from this, one will learn that just 14% of the household incomes of full-time farmers comes from market agriculture, or, in other words, from the marketplace. It is clear that there has already been considerable diversification within rural households, particularly farm households. Such households are making their livelihoods by combining a number of different occupations. Rural development is about supporting agricultural households to sustain rural livelihoods where they can be supported. It involves the creation of alternative opportunities, from an income perspective in the first instance. There is no point in one talking about a rural area being aesthetic if one cannot afford to live there. We need to consider how to create livelihoods which are sustainable from an income perspective. When that has been satisfied, we can examine other forms of livelihood.
The UCD faculty of agriculture and food science is concerned with supporting agriculture as part of rural development, while also supporting other activities. We need to acknowledge that rural areas consist of more than agricultural households. If one examines the household budget survey, one will note that households in rural areas which are not dependent on agriculture are the poorest households in the State. The average incomes of such households are even lower that the average incomes of farm households or urban households. A great deal of work needs to be done to ascertain how we can support farm households within the farming sector and outside it. We also need to examine how the critical group I have mentioned — other households in rural areas — can be supported.
Professor McKenna
Dr. Evans and I will try to answer the questions about the faculty's links with the Teagasc research centres and about genetically modified foods and crops. The faculty has worked closely during the years with the Teagasc food research centres in Fermoy, which the joint committee visited after its visit to UCC, and Castleknock. The National Food Centre in Castleknock was originally the meat research centre and the Fermoy centre was originally the dairy research centre. While the Castleknock centre has been transformed into a more general food research centre, it continues to place a heavy emphasis on meat research. The faculty has engaged in a high degree of collaboration with the centres since the early 1990s. Many of its PhD students have been based at the Teagasc research centre in Castleknock and have been jointly supervised by Teagasc personnel and UCD staff. That has been a common model during the years.
I will speak briefly about genetically modified foods and crops before I ask Dr. Evans to speak about the level of interaction in animal research. Senator Callanan asked whether UCD has undertaken any work on the effects of genetically modified organisms on human welfare and on the possibility of soil being contaminated by the growing of genetically modified crops. The straight answer is no. We have not carried out any such research, although, as scientists, we have our own opinions. I have a personal opinion on genetic modification but there is no single UCD opinion. There is a small chance that something will go wrong in the long term, as there is with any scientific endeavour. The volume of evidence and scientific literature that is available seems to suggest that genetic modification does not present a major threat. I fully accept that I have given a subjective interpretation of the information available to me.
Although I am a scientist, I am not an expert on genetically modified foods. For centuries, we have had no difficulty with the concept of grafting one species of a tree, bush or crop onto another species to produce a hybrid of some sort. The general public — I do not refer to scientists — has suspicions when similar work is done at a molecular level, where we cannot see exactly what is happening with our own eyes. I certainly do not have a problem with it. What we are doing is simply the same at a molecular level as what has been done for centuries at a macroscopic level. I notice that Senator Callanan is shaking his head — it is obvious that he does not agree with me. I have outlined how I feel about it, although I fully accept that we do not know everything about it. There are risks, as there are in many other areas. Many similar molecular biology techniques are being implemented in the medical research and general health areas, with magnificent effects on human health and disease control. For example, scientists are coming up with measures which they hope will prevent diseases which kill many people.
Great strides have been made in the medical field using the techniques I have mentioned, which are generally referred to in the medical context as forms of molecular biology rather than as forms of genetic modification. The public perception of concepts of this nature is influenced by how they are sold and explained. While molecular biology is considered to be a good thing because it has positive medical effects, people are worried about perceived dangers when they hear about genetic modification. They might be right to be concerned about some aspects of genetic modification — I will not argue about whether there are some dangers — but my personal view is that the risks are tiny. Perhaps Dr. Evans will be able to give a more scientific view.
Dr. Evans
I would like to give the joint committee an idea of the faculty's links with Teagasc and to make a few remarks on the issue of genetic modification. The links which UCD has had with Teagasc in the animal production area over many years can be said to be both formal and informal. The basis of such links is at a personal level. Perhaps we should seek to ensure that research becomes more formalised in the future. The faculty has links with the Moorepark centre, which was visited by members of the joint committee. It is working with the centre on issues such as dairy cow infertility, nutrition, pig production welfare and pigmeat quality which are directly relevant to Irish farmers. Members of the staff of the faculty regularly contribute to the popular press about such issues. The faculty also has links with the Athenry sheep research programmes, which concentrate on issues such as breeding for disease resistance and meat quality. For example, the Athenry centre is trying to reduce the amount of drugs that must to be given to sheep to improve food quality. The faculty collaborates with the Athenry centre on reproduction in beef cows, which is very relevant to people in the beef industry. The faculty also collaborates with the Teagasc centre in Grange on housing and welfare, largely of beef animals, and grazing management. We have, therefore, a broad sweep of collaboration with the organisation. While we may have a basic angle in some of our focuses, there is, along with the remit of Teagasc, a strongly applied element to all the studies we do.
I am not an expert on the issue of genetically modified food. Although the faculty does not carry out research in this area, we try to teach our students about it. Consequently, I am one of the members of staff who closely reads the literature to try to understand the issue. Just last week the magazine Nature featured an article about a scare that occurred in the United States several years ago concerning the possibility that genetically modified corn and maize would “jump”, as it were, to native crops. It transpires that these fears were unfounded. My conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence that genetically modified crops are harmful. However, as Professor McKenna noted, that does not mean they may not be found to be harmful in the future. Nevertheless, my understanding from reading approximately ten years of focused research carried out by some excellent scientists across the globe is that, thus far, there are no causes for alarmist concerns. Obviously, however, people like to err on the side of caution and, as a result, personal interpretations persist. From a scientific point of view, however, one would be hard pressed to hold up strong evidence to suggest that these foods are bad for us.
I am somewhat surprised that the faculty has not carried out more in-house research on the topic of genetically modified foods, given the concerns associated with them and the challenge and questions they pose to the State in terms of the extent to which we will participate in the use of GM technology. Depending on industry for information would not necessarily give one a true and accurate picture because vested interests could well be at work.
Moving away from the issue of GM foods, does the faculty carry out research on biofuels? As the delegation will be aware, biofuel initiatives, notably in counties Wexford and Wicklow, are ongoing. These products have the potential to create income for farmers in a shrinking market, which is a positive development. In the wider scheme of things they also have potential implications for energy policy. What research, if any, has UCD carried out in this area? Has collaboration taken place with the relevant industries?
Professor McKenna
While none of those present has worked on biofuels, the engineering and agricultural people, now known as biosystems engineers, have worked on biofuels for years, dating to the mid and late 1980s and even as far back as the previous serious energy crisis when there were queues for petrol and so forth. They had tractors working on biodiesel and have continued to work in this area. While the level of research has increased or decreased during the years, depending on interest in the issue, biosystems engineers have been examining biofuels for farm vehicles and general transport vehicles.
I do not know the answer to the Senator's question on interaction with industry. If, by the word "industry", he refers to the agriculture industry, the answer is yes. If, however, he is referring to the conventional fuel industry, the answer is "probably not".
I refer to those involved in the process of manufacturing fuel from crops.
Professor McKenna
Collaboration has taken place in that regard.
Will UCD supply the joint committee with the up-to-date position?
Professor McKenna
Yes, we could send any information we have to the joint committee.
On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Professor McKenna, Professor Phelan, Professor Mulcahy and Dr. Evans for attending this exciting meeting and for responding to members' queries. I thank Deputy Upton for requesting that the joint committee invite a delegation from the faculty of agriculture and food science at UCD to appear before it. Members would be delighted, with the agreement of the delegation, to visit University College Dublin in the coming months to observe the great work it is doing. I ask the delegation to convey the best wishes of members of the joint committee to the dean of UCD, Professor Maurice Boland, whom we wish a speedy recovery.
The joint committee went into private session at 5.35 p.m. and adjourned at 5.40 p.m. sine die.