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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Feb 2008

REPS Payments: Discussion with Irish Farmers Association.

I have received apologies from Deputy Creed who cannot attend the meeting. I understand Mr. Michael Berkery, general secretary of the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, cannot join the delegation because he was called away on other important business.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Mr. Padraig Walshe, president of the IFA; Mr. Tom Turley, chairman of the IFA's rural development committee; Mr. Gerry Gunning, executive secretary; and Mr. Con Lucey, IFA chief economist. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the unresolved issues relating to the rural environment protection scheme, REPS 4. I remind delegates that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Walshe to make his presentation.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I thank the Chairman for allowing us to address the committee. I also thank the many Oireachtas Members who attended the lobby session we held last week. I thank the Chairman, in particular, for the role he played in recent weeks in sorting out the difficulties relating to the REPS 2 and REPS 3 payments. His help is much appreciated by farmers. The impasse was holding up payments worth €37 million to 6,000 farmers, as we highlighted last week, and it was important that it be resolved as quickly as possible. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Coughlan, took up this issue at a meeting in Brussels last Monday with the Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Ms Mariann Fischer Boel, and the matter was resolved satisfactorily. The payments are now being processed.

In many cases, the REPS payment goes directly to pay off bank loans associated with environmental investments farmers have made under their five-year REPS plan. Farmers involved in the scheme had a legitimate expectation under the five-year contract arrangement that payments would be made at the start of the plan and at the beginning of each subsequent year. While the problems with REPS 2 and REPS 3 have been resolved, problems persist in terms of when payments will be made to farmers who joined REPS 4 since the start of the year. In addition, farmers who will join the scheme in coming months are unclear as to when payments will be made. An early payment system has been in place for 14 years and contributed greatly to what has been and still is the most successful agri-environmental programme in the European Union.

The IFA prioritised REPS in the partnership negotiations in 2006. The outcome of those negotiations was a 17% increase in payment rates and an improved environmental scheme with significant capital investments being made by farmers. The objective in the partnership agreement and the rural development plan for 2007-13 is that up to 70,000 farmers will be participating in the scheme by 2010. This is an ambitious target for the scheme but I have no doubt it will be achieved if farmers have confidence in the payment arrangement.

This necessitates the continuation of the early payment system which has been a feature of REPS since its introduction and involves early payment at the start of each year of the five-year contract. This is vital in encouraging farmers to join the environmental scheme and helps to meet the high costs incurred in the early stages of the plan. These costs include planner costs, capital investments and general compliance costs. Furthermore, reduction in inputs, namely, fertilisers and chemicals, leads to a loss of income which must be immediately compensated for, as the farmer has committed to farming to a higher standard than what is considered the norm in good farming practice.

Some 1,200 farmers have joined REPS 4 since the scheme was introduced last August. Many of these farmers had been out of the scheme as their contracts under REPS 2 had expired in the course of 2007 and there was no scheme available to join from January to August of last year. The 500 farmers who joined REPS 4 before the end of 2007 are currently being paid. Farmers who have joined since are in limbo in that they do not know when they will be paid. Meanwhile, farmers who are currently participating in REPS 2 or 3 and who will be moving to REPS 4 in the course of this year are also uncertain as to when payment will be made.

A press release from the Minister on 24 October indicated that payments would only be delayed for those farmers joining REPS 4 for the first time. It also indicated that farmers participating in REPS 2 and REPS 3 would continue to receive payments in the normal way when they joined REPS 4. The current early payment system for farmers joining REPS 4 must continue. The issue of payments to farmers who are in REPS 2 and REPS 3 and who are moving into REPS 4 should be clarified immediately as there is much uncertainty among farmers and planners as to how to deal with the scheme in the future.

I wish to highlight to members the importance of REPS to farmers. According to the most recent Teagasc national farm survey, an estimated 48% of farmers received REPS payments in 2006. The average farm income on REPS farms was €17,713, which was 13% higher than the average farm income on non-REPS farms, which stood at €15,774. More than 76% of farms that participate in REPS operate dry stock farm enterprise systems in the main. Sheep farmers in REPS had an income 2.5 times higher than sheep farmers who were not in REPS. Under REPS 4, the level of participation is likely to increase from 60,000 to 70,000 farmers in the course of the next six years. Farmers who will qualify for the nitrates derogation will be eligible to apply for REPS 4. In addition, farmers with less than 170 kg of nitrogen per hectare who previously were not in REPS are likely to consider this scheme due to cross-compliance rules under the single farm payment.

As members are aware, the early payment system has been the most important feature of the REP scheme since its introduction in 1994. If REPS is to hold its attraction to farmers and if the target set out in the programme for Government to have 70,000 farmers in REPS 4 in the future is to be achieved, the IFA believes this feature must continue. Both the environmental gains that have been achieved as well as the income gains at farm level are very important. Moreover, were this feature not to continue, the cash flow issues thus created would be huge.

Mr. Tom Turley

I acknowledge, as did Mr. Walshe, the Chairman's assistance in solving the problem in respect of REPS 2 and REPS 3. This brings us back to the position at the beginning of the year with regard to the changes in the payments system associated with REPS 4. We consider that these changes will constitute a significant impediment to farmers joining REPS 4. The precedent has been set for 14 years with REPS 2 and REPS 3 that an early payment system forms part of the plan. The IFA strongly believes it will be unable to encourage a sufficient number of farmers into REPS 4 unless this system can be continued.

I make the point that this is happening with REPS 4 at present. Those who joined the scheme prior to December 2007 are receiving their payments this week, albeit after a break, and our position is that this system should continue. It was the selling point on which farmers joined the scheme. They incur significant initial costs, such as planner costs, soil testing and major capital costs on joining the agri-environment scheme. As the president outlined, it has been a huge success and has been held up in Brussels as the best agri-environment scheme ever. Other countries look to Ireland to ascertain how to implement such a scheme. As early payment has been a huge factor in our success, the IFA wants it to continue and seeks members' help in this.

I thank the president and Mr. Turley for their kind remarks to the joint committee and me. I compliment the Minister, with whom my colleagues and I held numerous meetings when this difficulty arose and I am delighted she played a major part in resolving the problem with REPS 2 and REPS 3. Having spoken to the Minister yesterday, again with my colleagues, I know she is working flat out to try to resolve REPS 4 as well. I again thank the witnesses for their kind remarks and I call on Deputy Doyle.

I thank the president, Mr. Turley and the other witnesses for their presentation. Members are in agreement and have a good understanding of the situation. At the end of his contribution, Mr. Turley commented on how other member states are examining the operation of the scheme in Ireland. If the rules in respect of REPS 4 are causing a difficulty and the system that has been in place in Ireland has been successful, the EU might consider changing its rules to adopt the apparently successful Irish approach. I refer to the payments scheme, along with everything else because the early payment scheme has been the key to inducing people to buy into it. If these famous EU rules constitute a problem, perhaps we should try to demonstrate to the EU the reason the scheme works so well in Ireland and seek a change in its rules.

My second point has not been mentioned previously. While everyone complains about banks, there was edginess on the part of banks, particularly those with many rural customers that faced being obliged to extend financial credit arrangements to farmers who had commitments, on foot of a contract they had signed and in keeping with the rules and regulations attached to their REPS contracts. Some financial institutions in agricultural areas feared they would experience problems, given what is taking place at present in world finance.

These are my two main points. Members will get a chance later today to reiterate the problem to the Minister. As a cross-party joint committee, members' duty is to ensure that such a debacle does not recur. How was it allowed to happen? Farmer confidence in the EU has taken a major battering in the past two weeks. The uncertainty associated with this issue has caused many problems and members must ensure such an event does not recur.

To the best of my knowledge, those who were encouraged to switch from REPS 3 to REPS 4 were unaware there would be implications for their payment regime and it was never indicated that this might be a problem. When did the Department become aware of this issue? If it was aware of it, why did it not highlight that this could be a consequence of making the move? I seek clarity in this regard because it was disingenuous, to say the least, for departmental officials to encourage people into REPS 4, which on the face of it is a good scheme, if they knew of financial implications regarding the payment arrangements that all applicants would be obliged to consider in the context of their personal circumstances. This issue should be clarified for the joint committee by the Department's officials.

Apart from that, everyone is in agreement that such uncertainty cannot recur. It would undermine confidence and some form of dialogue is required so that we know what is happening and what is being presented when trying to introduce a new scheme. During negotiations on such a scheme and before it is agreed to, all the associated rules and regulations should be put on the table so that people can make an informed choice while knowing exactly where they stand.

I will be brief. That the scheme has been in place for 14 years is a testament to its success and without repeating too many of Deputy Doyle's comments, it was predicated on a significant buy-in from the farming organisations, farming communities and banks. The scheme's very success means it should continue into REPS 4 and the methods of payments also should continue as designated in REPS 2 and REPS 3. The question is whether the Commission will agree to such a proposal. I strongly advocate its continuation, through both members' contacts and lobbying at European level. The scheme should continue as is because it is highly successful and the Irish mechanism should be used as a benchmark for the rest of Europe because of the sheer volume of farmers who have taken it up, as well as the projected increases over the next six years.

Members support unequivocally the IFA's position on this issue. In fairness to the Minister and her departmental officials, through their meetings with Commission officials I understand they have been lobbying hard on the issue and members should acknowledge this. It is a worthwhile scheme that is worthy of continuation. We support it unequivocally.

It seems strange and incongruous that the European Commission would make an announcement of this nature at a time when Ireland was set consider ratification of the Lisbon treaty. There was a degree of naivety on its part. Is it any wonder that there is scepticism about the EU and its workings when decisions like this are made at such times? Some will beg to differ with me on this issue.

Over recent weeks, we have seen collective efforts to find a partial solution to the problems of REPS 2 and REPS 3 to allow farmers to get their payments. I congratulate the IFA and everybody associated with the lobbying exercise the IFA carried out in recent weeks. It has paid off and put the situation of probably the most vulnerable section of the farming community centre stage. It has worked well.

In respect of the uncertainty surrounding REPS 4, particularly for people moving from REPS 2 and REPS 3, it is mind-boggling that in some situations people are getting their payments up front and probably front loaded and then in another situation payments are coming in at the end of the year. We are talking about many farmers who have shifted from one REPS scheme to the other and who depend on it. Their budget is balanced on the year, depending on the REPS payments coming in for the farmers in question. We must keep the pressure on and work collectively. Even though we are political opponents, I am delighted the Minister has worked very hard on this issue with the desired results.

Deputy Sherlock raised an issue about the Lisbon treaty. We are talking here about a regulation. The regulation is that the person is paid at the end of the year. It does not have any bearing on the Lisbon treaty, which is a separate issue and will be fought by everybody both for and against and maybe the IFA as well. I understand we will be on opposite sides for once. I have no doubt that, some day, everyone will see the light.

We will conform.

Europe has been good for Irish farmers.

I welcome the delegation from the IFA and compliment it and the Minister for the very hard work done in respect of REPS 2 and REPS 3. The IFA's meeting on Monday with the Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development, Mariann Fischer Boel, was mentioned. We all know that she was in literally hourly contact and the pressure was on. I do not want to be repetitive but it has been an excellent scheme. We were fortunate that it was negotiated in that way, was front loaded for the number of years in which it operated and went well. I agree with Deputy Doyle that where Ireland leads, Europe can follow. We have a saying to the effect that where Tipperary leads, Ireland follows. I certainly hope that REPS 4 will be sorted out. From speaking to the Minister, I know there will be no stone left unturned to try to ensure that the situation regarding REPS 4 will be resolved. We will support her in respect of this issue.

I welcome the IFA delegation to the meeting. We are all at one in realising the importance of REPS to Irish farming. I understand that Ireland is the only country in the scheme whose farmers are paid up-front, a situation I do not wish to change. It is very important. I understand that more than €3 million has been paid in REPS payments this year alone. Am I correct in saying this?

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I believe €3 million has been paid out under REPS 4. More needs to be paid.

It is of major importance for the Irish farmer and we want to keep it that way.

The Minister has worked hard on this and I have no doubt she is negotiating in respect of REPS 4. I am very confident because she is a determined lady and a good negotiator. While she is handling the situation, we do not have much to fear. The question of how long it will take is another matter. None of us want to pre-empt what will happen. The Minister realises the importance to farmers of REPS 4, following on from REPS 2 and REPS 3. The matter is in good hands.

I understand that Mr. Walshe said that 1,200 farmers have signed up for REPS 4. Is this correct? I thought the number was less than that. I thought it was approximately 800.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

It will be 800 before the end of the year. Another 500 farmers have already been added this year.

The 800 farmers are the people who I understand are probably in trouble and must be properly looked after at all costs. They signed up to something they thought would not be changed. REPS 4 is a different scheme that is a follow-on. They went in there in good faith and now they must be treated in the same fashion as those in REPS 2 and REPS 3. I have no doubt that, with the negotiating skills of the Minister, this will be resolved very shortly.

I welcome the IFA delegation to the meeting. There is no point in being repetitive but I take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister for the wonderful work she has done. This was not all done last Monday in Brussels but was done prior to that. The Brussels meeting was the final meeting with the Commissioner. The Minister had worked very hard to ensure REPS 2 and REPS 3 would recover their original status. The Minister has a wonderful working relationship with the Commissioner, which proved beneficial at the end of the day.

I have little doubt that the Minister will also have a successful conclusion in respect of REPS 4 because she is a hands-on Minister and, given the area from which she comes, understands that REPS payments are as vital to the farmers in the west and north west of Ireland as they are to farmers in other parts of the country. We may not get as much but the payments are a very important part of our income in those counties.

Deputy Mattie McGrath jested that where Tipperary goes, Ireland follows. Cork has given them an ideal opportunity this year.

Senator Bradford is letting Senator O'Brien speak first because he must leave soon.

I thank Senator Bradford. I welcome the delegation, including Mr. Walshe, Mr. Gunning and Mr. Turley. REPS is very important for this country. Given that cattle and sheep numbers have all come down, it allows farmers to participate in REPS. Mr. Walshe's statement that there are already 500 applications for REPS 4 only two months into this year is a prime example of its importance. I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the IFA on its efforts and input in this regard in recent months. I congratulate the Minister, a prime example of what people can do when they make a joint effort, which she did in conjunction with the IFA and everyone involved. She has sorted and put to bed the issue of REPS 2 and REPS 3. With her effort and determination, she will achieve the goal in respect of REPS 4.

I welcome the IFA representatives and congratulate them on their efforts. The Minister is being showered with all sorts of good wishes and congratulations. We welcome that the REPS 2 and REPS 3 issues have been resolved, but the issue of how the problem commenced and from where it came remains. Until one week or ten days ago, there was confusion concerning whether it was a departmental or Commission problem. However, it has been resolved and we must move forward.

The REPS 4 scheme is attractive and, I hope, many will be willing to join it. REPS is one of the few schemes vis-à-vis Irish agriculture that is win-win. It is a win for the farmer, the environment and the economy and it must be sustained, expanded and built upon. We all welcome the target of 70,000 farmers joining, but to do so we must remove uncertainty. The scheme has been in place since 1994. A farmer who joins — one could say I am such a farmer — signs the contract and does A, B and C for a payment made at the commencement of the year. When one is involved in a contract, both sides are normally expected to keep their ends of the bargain. The payment at the start of the year is vital in that regard.

The committee has played a small role in trying to resolve this issue. Our aim must be to try to tie matters down in respect of REPS 4. Mention was made of using our contacts in Europe and we must call on our MEPs to work with the Department, the Minister and the Commissioner to resolve any remaining doubts concerning REPS 4. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet because it is a vital financial component of rural Ireland from agricultural and environmental perspectives.

As mentioned by one or two of the speakers, it was important to resolve the issue at this sensitive time in the politics of Europe. There was a cloud of uncertainty as to what Europe was doing to Irish agriculture, but I hope it has been resolved. The scheme shows that when the Government and Europe work together towards the benefit of Irish agriculture, it results in positive outcomes, of which we need more.

I thank the delegation for its attendance. The committee must focus on REPS 4 and we must seek early progress. We cannot expect the Minister to attend every second day, but we should outline to her through correspondence our strong opinion that we need early progress and a firm commitment that the start of year payment system will remain so that we can transfer the maximum number of farmers onto the more advantageous REPS 4 programme.

I welcome the delegation's members and congratulate all concerned on this result, which has accrued from the discussions between the IFA, the committee and the Minister, Deputy Coughlan. However, we have only won round one. Round two is approaching and I am amazed the EU, when it agreed to pay REPS 2 and REPS 3, did not give clearance to REPS 4.

Between this issue and the Lisbon treaty referendum, it is a prime time for us to let the European Commission know that the uncertainties should be cleared up. We cannot relax in our efforts to ensure that the 1,200 farmers who have recently joined REPS 4 and those who were members already are paid immediately. While we might be members of the committee at the time, it should be copperfastened that no changes in the regulations appertaining to payments should be made under possible future sections of the scheme. REPS 2 or REPS 3 is not the answer, as REPS 4 is every bit as important to farmers. I assure the president and attending members of the IFA that the committee's members will not rest on our oars until we get the Minister to copperfasten the prevention of further interference by the EU in the scheme's payments so that it can proceed as introduced.

Were it not for the lobbying of the IFA's president and members threatening to upset the Lisbon treaty apple cart, the problem may not have been resolved. Any uncertainties must be cleared up. I ask Deputy Christy O'Sullivan to help me to highlight the injustice done to the farming community. Without a shadow of a doubt—

And Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

My colleague, Deputy O'Keeffe, is not a member of the committee but my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, is. We in that constituency must work tooth and nail to ensure we deliver the goods for the IFA because, irrespective of what is stated, it is paramount that we get that assurance.

We must congratulate the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on winning round one, but round two must be won before the Lisbon treaty, which we must clarify to Brussels in no uncertain fashion.

Not least as an ordinary member of the IFA, I welcome the president and members of the association on one of their relatively frequent visits. With my brother as a partner, I am one of the 500 farmers who signed up to transfer from REPS 3 to REPS 4 before the end of 2007 and I know the cash flow difficulties in paying for the investments and so on required under the programme. I am half hoping that, when I go home this evening, the cheque will be on the door mat. I am among the 24% non-dry stock farmers, as we have a suckler and beef herd.

The main issues have been highlighted, namely, cashflow and confidence in the scheme. Had we had a notion when we joined that it would have meant that, instead of getting the payment at the end of 2007 or at the beginning of this year, there would have been a delay of nine months or 12 months in which we would effectively miss out on a year's payment in cash flow terms, we would have thought long and hard about it before joining. The scheme is excellent and has improved the appearance and, in many cases, the working and efficiency of farms, as evident when one travels.

I congratulate the IFA and the Minister on their efforts. It is relevant to the ratification of the upcoming treaty. I congratulate the president of the IFA on making a statement of unconditional support for the treaty, not a conditional one as Deputy Sheehan alleges. We will have constant battles in agriculture and other fields where we need to exercise influence. The idea that rejecting the treaty and making the working of the EU more difficult will increase our influence in Europe is not correct. A deaf ear will be turned to many of our representations. We must fight our battles from within, not without. I welcome the clear and unequivocal leadership of the president and the association. I hope the difficulties with the REPS 4 scheme will be cleared up. Everyone has a role to play, primarily the Minister but also the IFA, which has an office in Brussels, this committee and others.

The rural environment protection scheme has worked exceptionally well in Ireland and the particular system has worked. The scheme should be structured to continue working and maintaining confidence in the scheme, which is necessary to encourage people to take on onerous obligations under the REPS programmes.

It has all been said but I welcome the IFA delegation. As a rural Deputy, I received many phone calls from people who were worried about REPS 2 and 3 after our meeting last week. I am pleased it was resolved. We had many meetings with the Minister last week and yesterday. People must be vigilant about these matters. Some €30 million of rural environment protection scheme payments were ready and they were held up over a query by an auditor. Unfortunately, those who pay the piper call the tune and the Minister could do nothing about it. She gave members an assurance that she is doing her utmost to ensure REPS 4 will be brought into line in the same manner as REPS 2 and 3.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

I thank all the Deputies and Senators for their kind comments. Everyone is aware of the problems with REPS 2 and 3, which should never have arisen. Let us look at how we can resolve the problem of REPS 4. The greatest fear I have is the acceptance by officials in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that it will not matter if people do not know what they are signing up to in the rural environment protection scheme. We must drive home the point that it does matter; it is a crucial issue. It is the most attractive part of the scheme.

Deputy Doyle made a good point about how the EU should examine the success we have had with this scheme. Our officials should drive home that point when meeting Commission officials. REPS is not just an income for farmers. Every rural Deputy driving through the countryside on a regular basis has seen the effect of REPS over 14 years. None of us is too proud of the fact that the countryside was not as tidy as it should have been before but it has been tidied up. Farms in my area have gates hanging, whereas previously they were tied with baler twine. REPS is responsible for this and the countryside looks much better. A small investment has been made to achieve that and it has been a major contributor to income.

Farmers must make investment such as planting hedgerows or increasing slurry sewerage capacity. A major benefit of the scheme is that the farmer receives the money early in the scheme and does not have to take out a bridging loan as he does with every other scheme. To get other grants, one had to borrow money to carry out work and hope to receive a grant from the Department to pay off some of the loan. The early REPS payment gives the cashflow to carry out work. We must highlight this and I encourage the Chairman and members to emphasise this in any contacts with the Minister or the officials in the Department. That is the major attraction and both society and farmers benefit from it.

The Minister announced a special package for sheep farmers, €28 million of which was to come through the REPS 4 scheme. Not one cent has been paid to any sheep farmers even though it was announced last year. We must improve the proposed scheme to get that money to farmers. If the payment delay is part of REPS 4 it means not one cent will be paid this year. Some €28 million was promised before the election but not one cent will be paid this year if the problem is not solved. The sheep industry is on its knees and at this low ebb it needs every pick-up it can get. There is no point on me labouring the point any further.

Regarding comments made about the Lisbon treaty, we gave the treaty unconditional support because we believe our members' interests will be best served if we are at the heart of Europe. We have shown this in various campaigns, not least the recent campaign against Brazilian beef. I appreciate the support on that from committee members. Issues such as this will influence either the thinking of 60,000 to 70,000 farmers when they go to the ballot box or whether they bother going to the ballot box.

Deputy Ferris is correct in stating that the Lisbon treaty should be dealt with on its own. We should debate it as an issue on its own but we cannot ignore matters that will influence people's opinions on the day they strike the ballot paper. In political terms, it is called a "stroke".

It is a scratch.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Yes, a scratch. I do not have to tell members about this but these matters will influence the opinions of people, as will unneccessarily rigid bureaucracy which runs the risk of dismantling the benefits of REPS.

Mr. Gerry Gunning

Last week we saw the interest of the committee and Oireachtas Members in the operation of the rural environment protection scheme. Participation in REPS varies from 35% to 70% in the counties involved. REPS operates across all sectors of farming. We expected more farmers, those who had not been interested in REPS, to take up the scheme because of cross-compliance and the nitrates directive. The uncertainty about the early payment system will put a halt to this, which is unfortunate.

The situation in other EU countries was raised on numerous occasions. The system in Ireland has been up and running for 14 years. The European Commission has audited the REP scheme many times and we have not had a problem. This is not to state REPS does not have problems, as I am sure that from time to time individual farmers have problems with inspections and on-the-spot checks. It is a well-monitored scheme.

Ireland decided on the payment system many years ago. It has worked well and fits in with the area aid application. This is where the solution lies with regard to the European regulation. For several years an application for REPS has had to correspond with a single farm payment application and the system is well defined. It a question of fitting these issues together and allowing the early payment system to continue within the framework of our administration and inspection system which has worked well for 14 years. In many instances, one will move seamlessly from REPS 3 to REPS 4. However, as it stands, the interpretation suggests a person moving to REPS 4 at the end of this year will not be paid until the end of 2009. We cannot let this happen.

Mr. Tom Turley

Deputies mentioned an up-front payment. It was never an up-front payment, but an early payment to farmers who complied with the application process. Perhaps the idea that it was an up-front payment was conveyed to Brussels. Farmers are compliant from the day they sign up and it is an early payment.

As most Deputies mentioned, the issue is one of confidence in the scheme. On a wider scale, at this stage it is also about confidence in the European Union. Let us not try to fix something which is not broken. The system has been in place for 14 years and we want it to continue. We encourage farmers to change from REPS 2 and 3 to REPS 4. We also want to encourage more intensive farmers to participate in REPS and REPS 4 allows for this. If we cannot continue the system we have had in place, we will have major problems. This year a total of €380 million has been allocated for REPS and we want to see it all spent. Unfortunately, that will not happen unless this problem is solved quickly.

I have been contacted by a few farmers who were participating in REPS 2 which finished in October 2006. They had hoped to begin REPS 4 in January 2007 but it was October that year before the Minister and the Department issued the application forms. This meant 12 months were lost and many farmers lost €10,000. Is this tough titty on the farmer? I am not from a legal background but believe these 12 months were lost because of a lack of direction from the Minister.

As the IFA is represented at this meeting, I wish to raise the issue of water metering. When I was a member of Kerry County Council, I tabled a motion on this matter. I was told that if one had two holdings in the same townland, one would be charged for only one meter. Many farms are fragmented with, for example, ten acres 12 miles away and five acres four miles away. How is this treated by local authorities?

This issue is not on the agenda.

I know but it is relevant and I took the opportunity to raise it.

It is a problem in every county. In County Sligo, a pilot scheme county, a charge of €80 per meter was proposed. However, some farmers have four, five or six meters. It is €80 for the first meter and €20 each for the next three with a maximum payment of €140 per year no matter how many meters one has. I do not know what happens in other counties.

We are finishing up but if Deputy Aylward wishes to speak, he is welcome to do so.

I will not do so. As I am late, I will suffer the consequences.

The Deputy is welcome to say a few words.

As I am happy that I am well represented, I do not mind.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Deputy Sheahan is correct. The partnership deal under which REPS 4 was announced was done in early October 2006. As REPS 3 had closed, farmers finishing REPS 2 did not have the option of joining it. The expectation was that REPS 4 would operate from 1 January 2007. I found it extremely frustrating because many farmers involved rang me and our offices to find out when REPS 4 would start. It was August 2007 before the full documentation was published and October that year before farmers could sign up. This created a 12 month gap. For the farmers concerned to have to wait another 12 months before they received money was unacceptable. We have no compensation—

The farmers affected have no recourse.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

Absolutely none. The agreement reached in partnership was that REPS 4 would begin on 1 January 2007—

Mr. Padraig Walshe

The partnership programme is to run until 2013. It did not begin in January 2007. It was extremely disappointing that the Department was so slow in getting it up and running.

Were many farmers affected by this?

Mr. Gerry Gunning

We estimate that nationally at least 3,000 or 4,000 farmers were caught in this bind because of the delay. When they joined REPS 4, they discovered their payment was being held up. Deputy Mansergh has made the point that he is being paid this week, as are others. In normal circumstances, the farmers concerned should have been paid last October or November. A total of 500 have been paid under REPS 4 and this is welcome. However, anybody who joined REPS 4 since 1 January is affected by the issue we are discussing and they do not know when they will be paid. That is why we require immediate clarification. Some of those affected may not have been in a position to use a planner because planners may have been too busy to draw up a plan for them. Therefore, they were pushed back to 1 January this year and are affected by this issue.

I believe the form was not on the website. However, planners could have filled out the application form manually but chose not to do so, as they did not want to do the work involved. As the form was not on the website, they could not fill it in by ticking in boxes. Where planners completed the form manually, the farmers involved got in before January.

The Minister has told us that 75% of the REPS 4 payment will be paid as soon as administrative checks are done on the single farm payment and that 25% will be paid at the end of the year. The matter has been clarified.

Mr. Padraig Walshe

That is way too late and a change from what the Minister announced last October. It is unacceptable. The most attractive part of the scheme is the early payment. It is not an advance payment as departmental officials may have told people in Brussels. It is a payment after one has applied and the plan has been checked to allow one to do the work one has contracted to do. We are the only country in Europe that is getting money up-front.

It is the most successful scheme in Europe. We have also made the point that if the EU is serious about such environmental schemes, it should examine how the most successful one operates and determine what is its most attractive element.

On the issue of water charges, Deputy Mattie McGrath made a point earlier about Tipperary leading and the rest of the country following. Obviously, Kerry led on this one and the rest of the country is not following the way one would like. Some county councils are trying to charge people in fragmented farms for meters at every point they want water. It has been a battle for the past few years, particularly in the west of Ireland. Perhaps we could discuss it further on another day.

I wish to raise the matter of the WTO and discuss it with the committee at some point in the near future. Mr. Mandelson is at it again, basically, and the situation is extremely serious. I heard a report this morning that agricultural officials in Brussels have admitted, at long last, that the Irish beef industry will be decimated and will be practically non-existent, apart from a few hobby operations, if Mr. Mandelson gets his way. It is an extremely serious issue and I would appreciate it if the Chairman would allow us to discuss it with the committee as soon as possible.

Certainly, that will be arranged. It is one of a number of issues that we discuss with the Minister on an ongoing basis and the IFA would be more than welcome to come before us again to deal with it. At the first opportunity in the coming weeks, we will arrange that. I thank the president of the IFA and his colleagues for their presentation and for answering members' questions today. I acknowledge Ms Elaine Farrell, who is in the Gallery and who is a great officer. The co-operation between herself and Oireachtas members is second to none.

The clerk of the committee would be grateful if members would indicate, as soon as possible, if they wish to attend the meeting with EirGrid in its headquarters next Wednesday at 2 p.m. A meeting of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Scrutiny will take place next Tuesday at 1 p.m. to discuss various legislative proposals regarding genetically modified foods. If members of this committee wish to attend, they will be more than welcome.

Next Tuesday at 1 p.m.

I do not know.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.33 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday 26 February 2008.
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