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JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 2010

Quality Payment Grid for Beef Cattle: Discussion with Teagasc.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the representatives from Teagasc, Dr. Frank O'Mara, director of research, Dr. Edward O'Riordan and Mr. Bernard Smyth, who are here to make a presentation on the new quality payment grid for beef cattle. I apologise to them for the delay but we had a lot of business to transact and we had a vote.

Before I call Dr. O'Mara to make his presentation, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Dr. Frank O’Mara

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to speak to them about the quality payment grid for beef cattle. This is a very important development in the beef industry, so we are glad to have the opportunity to outline our role in its development.

Before I start the presentation, I would like to set things a little in context. All sectors of the agriculture industry have had a couple of bad years in terms of prices and incomes. Our own data from the national farm survey and CSO figures all outline the difficult year 2009, in particular, was for all sectors. The beef sector had several difficult years. This is the second year in a row that winter finishers are having a particularly bad time in terms of prices for cattle. That is merely part of the context in which the new payment grid was introduced in December.

Notwithstanding the difficulties of the sector, it is still a significantly important sector, both nationally, in terms of the exports derived from the sector and the number of jobs involved in it, and from farmers' perspective. There is a large number of farmers involved in beef production. It spreads into every parish. It is a significantly important industry from the country's point of view and developments like this are quite important for it.

My presentation is comprised of four parts I want to cover. First, I will address why we need this new grid payment system for cattle. Once I conclude on the necessity for it, I will address how the grid was established and the scientific basis that underpinned the grid that was introduced in December. Then we will briefly touch on the current operation of the grid, but I suppose that is not really an issue for Teagasc. That is an issue, in terms of pricing, between the industry and farmers. We will outline the way the grid is structured. The final issue, on which we will not spend much time but which is now the important issue, is how farmers capitalise on the opportunities that the grid now presents in terms of producing quality cattle and getting paid appropriately for them.

The first part is the rationale for introducing this grid. To take it back to basics, all beef carcases are not equal in value. They vary in fatness and in conformation. Conformation determines the proportion of high-value meat that might be in a carcase. As with milk all gallons of which do not have the same value and which is paid for on the basis of fat and protein content, and as with grain which is paid for on the basis of moisture content and other quality parameters such as protein, hardness or whatever, the same applies with cattle in that there are variations in the quality of a carcase of beef.

For 30 or 40 years, cattle have been graded on the basis of fatness and conformation. That is nothing new. I suppose we should ask ourselves then, what should that kind of pricing system, which grades cattle on fatness and conformation, aim to deliver to farmers. First, the pricing structure should reflect the true market value of the cattle. It should reflect the proper differential between different grades of cattle. It should give a proper reflection of the different value of carcases of different grades.

It also should send a clear signal to producers. Producers should be clearly aware of what the market requires, where the best price is to be obtained or what type of animals will give the best price if they can produce them. It also should send a clear signal to producers as to what they should produce if we want to maximise the returns from the market.

The system that has been in operation approximately since we joined the EU is known as the EUROP system. Animals are graded into one of five conformation classes, E, U, R, O, P, and then they are graded into one of five fat classes, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 — grade 4 was always split into 4L and 4H. That is the scale that has been in operation for more than 30 years in the country. That system is used to grade all the cattle killed in our export plants.

Where that meat or those carcases go is the next question. As the committee will be aware, 90% of Irish beef is exported. In recent years, that has been split fairly evenly, with approximately 50% of it going to UK markets and 50% of it going to continental EU markets. The continental EU markets are consistently the markets that return the best prices for beef. They are the premium markets into which we would like to have much of our beef go. The type of animal suitable for those high-price continental markets is an animal with high conformation, a lean animal that does not have a high fat score.

If we were to try to maximise the returns to the industry and to farmers, we should have as much of our cattle going into those high-price markets as possible. The next question then is, was the payment system we used previously fit for purpose. In other words, did it send a signal to producers to produce that type of cattle where we would get the maximum return? Did it reward sufficiently producers that produced those type of cattle that were going into those high-priced markets?

To help us answer that question, my presentation shows the price differential between two grades of cattle on a number of EU markets for last week, based on Bord Bia figures for approximately two weeks ago. These figures show the difference between an O grade and a U grade in the different markets. The figure for Ireland is the differential that existed for those grades prior to the grid, at which stage the difference was 18.4 cent/kg between grades O and U, which is two steps along the EUROP scale. Therefore, farmers got an 18 cent premium for U grades over O grades.

In the British market, that premium was 25 cent/kg. Looking at some of the continental markets, in France producers of U grade animals were getting 93 cent/kg more for U grades than O grades and in Italy, which data refer to bulls because they have very few steers, the premium was €1.16/kg for U grades as opposed to O grades.

The conclusion from that type of data is that there is not a significant premium for good quality cattle in the Irish payment system, the pricing system was not sending a strong enough signal to producers to produce good quality cattle, and a new pricing structure, which would be underpinned by scientific data on the value of the carcases of different conformation and fat score, should be developed.

I suppose that is where Teagasc came in. Several years ago we started research on the value of different carcases. Over a number of years we dissected one side of each of almost 700 carcases. Then different cuts of meat were isolated and weighed, the wholesale value of each of those different cuts was established, the weight was multiplied by the value and in that way we worked up to the value of each carcase. These carcases were spread from across the grid — the EUROP scale in different fat classes — and we got sample animals from throughout the existing classification scheme.

Once we had the value of the carcase established, based on the weights of meat and the value of the meat, the carcases were graded using the new mechanical grading system that has been in operation in the factories for years, and the two were put together. Statistically, the value of carcase was related to the conformation and fat score of the animals coming off the grading system, and we established the relationship between grade and value.

A slide in my presentation shows the impact of a one-unit increase in conformation score on the value of steers. It shows the impact of moving from an O3 steer — an animal grading O with a fat score of 3 — to an R3 — a animal with the same fat score but grading R. It shows that in that carcase there was a 3.5 percentage unit increase in the percentage of meat, a 1.3 percentage unit drop in the percentage of fat and a 2.2 percentage unit drop in the percentage of bone. When one compares the value of the O grade versus the R grade, the methodology of calculation for which I outlined earlier, there was a difference of 18 cent/kg in the value of the R grade carcase compared to the U grade carcase.

Another slide in my presentation shows a similar scenario for a change in fat score, this time keeping the conformation score constant at R and looking at the effect of moving from fat score 3 to fat score 4. It shows that by doing so, the meat percentage declines by 2.9 percentage units, as one would expect the fat percentage increases, by 3.6 percentage units, the bone percentage declines by 0.7 percentage units, and overall the value of the fatter carcase diminished by 17 cent/kg.

The requirements relating to fat are more complex than those which obtain in respect of meat yields. Some markets have different requirements in respect of fat content. The continental market requires very lean animals, whereas the UK market requires slightly fatter animals. There are different market requirements in respect of fat and this impacts on the value one might place on fat. The differential does not apply equally across the grid that has been developed.

We carried out the research and published it in various organs in recent years. The outcome of carrying it out has been that the meat industry has, with the agreement of the IFA, adopted these differentials as the basis of the new payment structure. As already stated, that new payment structure was introduced in mid-December. At the same time, we moved to a 15-point scale which replaced the old five-point model. The reason for this is quite simple. The impact of moving between grades would be too great and there would be too large a tipping point by moving, for example, from an R back to an O.

I have tried to illustrate the position on this theoretical slide. As members will see in a moment, these are not the actual figures from the grid. If we take the middle grades — the R grades — and if one takes the R= grade as being the base point and if one moves up to an R+ grade, one gains 6 cent per kilo. At the U- grade, one gains a further 6 cent per kilo. The steps in the new grid are based on a 6 cent progression. If the meat industry had continued to use the old system of E, U, R, O and P grades, a move from an R to a U grade would result in an 18 cent per kilo bonus. If the move was in the opposite direction, there would be a reduction of 18 cent. That is too great a tipping point in respect of animals that might be at the margins. A decision was taken to split each grade into +, — and = subgrades. This means that there will be more even steps within the pricing structure. In other words, one would not have lost 18 cent as a result of a small change in grade.

The new payment grid is split into the categories of U+, U=, U-, R+, R=, R-, O+, O= and O-. This grid was introduced by the industry in December. The grid contains greater resolution in the context of the differences between the grades. It is based on the differential we established of an 18 cent per kilo variation in value in transferring from one grade to the next.

Some modifications were introduced to the grid following negotiations involving the meat industry and the IFA. I will not discuss these in great detail. The change in the 4= grade, which is shaded white, will remain in effect until October. The change to the 4+ grade, which is shaded green, will remain in effect until next month. The purpose of these modifications is to ease the impact the grid will have during its first season in operation. They will also provide farmers with an opportunity to respond and facilitate a bedding down of the system. We did not have a role in respect of the negotiation of these modifications.

An additional quality assurance bonus was introduced at the same time as the new grid. This bonus is based on Bord Bia's quality assurance scheme and leads to the payment of an additional 6 cent per kilo in respect of all eligible grades. The next slide shows the grades that are eligible. Any grade O= or better and any fat class 4= or better qualifies for this bonus.

The grid was introduced on foot of our research. We established the differential between the grades, and the industry has used this as the base differential for calculating the value of carcasses. If we consider to where that has brought us in the context of the differential between grades compared to other countries, the next slide contains the graph I showed members earlier, which now includes data for Ireland from the second week of February. In that week, the differential between O and U grade carcasses was 30 cent per kilo. Prior to the introduction of the grid, this stood at 18.4 cent per kilo. Our differential is now slightly higher than that which obtains in the UK. However, we are still quite far behind France and Italy in this regard. There are various local marketing reasons which explain why the differentials in those two countries might be so high. Members can see the impact of the grid. People are now being paid more in respect of good quality cattle than was the case prior to its introduction.

It is hoped that the grid will drive change and improvement within the industry. What should farmers do in this regard? Breed selection is the key to obtaining good conformation scores in respect of cattle. For many years, we have been emphasising, via our advisory programme, the need to improve the breeding structure relating to the beef herd. With the advent of the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, there is a great deal more awareness among farmers. In addition, there are many more tools available to them to improve the conformation scores relating to their cattle through breeding.

A long-term strategy is of more immediate relevance to farmers in the context of breeding. As a result, there is a need to ensure the proper drafting of cattle for sale in order that the penalties relating to fat might be avoided. From a management point of view, proper nutrition for cattle during their lifetime is critical in order to ensure they achieve their conformation potential and are finished at the optimum fat score and carcass weight. The latter will facilitate their being sold at the most favourable grade on the grid.

The research carried out by Teagasc in the context of establishing the differential in value between carcasses of different grades is some of the most important it has conducted in recent years. It provides a real basis on which to decide the value of cattle of different grades. There have always been arguments with regard to how much extra people should pay for good quality cattle. At least now there is solid scientific data available that those in the industry can use to underpin the decisions they make in that regard. Ultimately, the market dictates what factories will pay in respect of cattle.

Now that the system is in place, there is great potential to drive quality in Irish beef production. Irish beef is justifiably regarded as being of very high quality in all of our export markets. It is produced to the highest welfare standards and very high environmental standards also apply. We now have a system that will hopefully send a strong signal to farmers regarding the type of cattle they should be producing in order that access might be obtained to more of the premium, high-priced markets.

The research should also assist in the maintenance of the suckler herd because it is from here that the best quality cattle will come. While more is paid for good quality animals and less is paid for their poorer quality counterparts under the new system, we are of the view that there is no disadvantage in this regard. The value of each animal is now based on its meat yield. The advantage arises in respect of animals that deliver extra meat and additional high-value cuts. The industry uses the data we have provided as the basis of its decisions in respect of pricing structures and it is this which facilitated the introduction of the grid last December.

My colleagues and I will be glad to answer any questions members may wish to pose.

Thank you. I am sure most of the research was carried out under Dr. O'Riordan in Grange. I wish to thank Teagasc for the many times it has facilitated this committee. Perhaps it is time we paid a visit to Grange to see the great work being done there. It is not because Grange is at the border of my constituency that I suggest this, but because it is a tremendous facility and because of the tremendous work being done there. The committee should consider a visit, sooner rather than later.

I welcome the delegation from Teagasc and thank them for their presentation. It is glaringly obvious from the presentation that we are excessively dependent on the UK market, 54%, but looking at the premium available on the EU main market, that is where we need to be. The challenge for Bord Bia is to refocus. There is obviously a market in the UK for a certain type of cattle, the heavier or fatter cattle. However, the future for the beef industry, which is an extremely difficult situation as proven by the almost 10% reduction in the suckler cow herd in the recent census, is to refocus and orient itself more towards the premium markets. That will take time. The issue is causing huge concern, particularly in the Munster region where there is an overweening influence of the dairy herd on the carcass formation.

This is a painful experience. I do not want to shoot the messenger, but perhaps Teagasc could tell me where to direct my criticism. I believe the weakness in the quality payment system, which I support in principle, is that it should have been introduced side by side with the old system for a period of two years so that people could respond to the breeding and feeding requirements to maximise their opportunities under the new grid system. Farmers are not convinced that it is revenue neutral to the factories. They are, for good reason, sceptical of the factories' bona fides. The system would be far more marketable as an alternative grading system if people had the opportunity to see they were getting X amount for a carcass, but that if they were under the new system they would get X-20%. They would realise in that situation that they needed to consider what was wrong with that carcass and decide how they could change their breeding and feeding programme to ensure they maximise their returns. It is the suddenness with which this has been foisted on people and their lack of preparedness for it that is a damning indictment, not of the system per se, but of the lack of readiness. Roy Keane said once, “Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.” That is applicable in this scenario. People are reeling from the shock of the system and are very angry about it.

It is a legitimate criticism to say farmers have been led blindfolded into this. There was much talk about it and people were clamouring for it. I attended a beef symposium organised by Teagasc in Macroom last October or November where the call was to bring in a quality pricing system and I support that in principle. However, people were not ready for it and were not aware of the impact it would have. They felt because they were beef farmers they would get a better return, but they did not know the system impacted on the type of beef animals they were producing. There is significant dependence on the progeny of the dairy herds in that area, which is a particular difficulty.

I would like to know why bull beef is excluded because, for dairy farmers in particular, the export of those calves or bull beef production is a way to maximise their return. However, I understand that bull beef is not included. Why is that? Farmers in the dairy sector feel bull beef is a realistic proposition for them if they cannot export their Friesian bull calves. Will the delegates address the question of whether the system is revenue neutral or whether factories are profiteering on its introduction? That is the widespread view in the farming community. It is not the universal view, but it is a widespread one. What is the role of Teagasc in monitoring the roll-out of the system?

I thank the three delegates for their presentation today which has been very informative. There is a significant number of beef producers in my area. I was at a bull calf for export mart last Monday and were it not for the mart, Friesian calves would make nothing. Currently, good Friesian calves only make about €1.20, €1.25 or €1.30 a kilo. The big problem is to change the mindset. This can only be done by trying to educate the people involved, both the dairy and beef producers, as to the benefits of this type of grading system.

There is confusion regarding the grading system, especially with regard to the numbers and the various letter grades. Many farmers do not understand them. They would understand better and we could get the message across better if we could explain the increase of 11.6 cent from the old type to the new type. That opportunity is lost, which is unfortunate. This needed to be done. We also need encouragement and advice from a body such as Teagasc with regard to the type of carcass and beef to be produced. Invariably, dairy farmers go for a Friesian bull when replacing stock so they can sell off the bull calves. The big task for Teagasc is to try and ensure that those involved in the industry are aware of the benefits of the system. One of the benefits should be to be able to provide them with direction on how to produce the type of carcass that is most beneficial for farmers for the future. I thank the delegates for their presentation.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for their well set out and easy to follow presentation. It illustrated what I have always believed, namely, that beef production and dairy farming are two entirely separate businesses. Beef production has become a very specialised industry. Obviously, it is dependent on the type of animal produced for different markets. At one time, most of our beef was going to England and there was no need for the industry to be so specialised. The market was different then. There would not be such a problem if we had a market of our own, but unfortunately the percentage of beef we use is small in comparison to what we produce. Irish and English people tend to like more fat in their meat, but the situation now is that we are dealing with different countries in Europe and they have more specific requirements as to quality and types of animal.

As somebody who was involved in the industry for a long time, I produced and supplied a lot of cattle to factories. I sometimes found it very difficult to see someone standing on the ground and looking up at a carcass and they decided whether it was this that or the other. How does one man decide whether my animal is getting €1.03 or €1.06 per pound — at the time it was priced by the pound? I always had a problem with that system. While there was an appeals mechanism, it only entailed someone else looking at it and providing a second opinion. I was always of the opinion that something should be put in place whereby there would be proper measurements regarding conformation, fat score and all that.

While this might not be the complete answer yet, I welcome it as a step in the right direction. I would be very concerned as to how it will be policed. I have always had different views on factories and the people in the processing industry. I believe they always look after themselves first. That has been the case over the years and I cannot see it changing because of this system. I welcome it as a step forward, but it must be monitored and followed up very closely. Who is doing such monitoring? If it is to be done by the factories, I would have serious concerns. If it is an independent body, I would have less concern.

As a small butcher in my former life and a man who fed a tonne of ration a day, I have met farmers and agents, but I have yet to meet anyone who is in favour of this system. The Teagasc presentation referred to the consultation between the IFA and the factories. While this is no criticism of Teagasc, I do not believe farmers engaged in that process. While the IFA is their representative body, no farmer or agent I have met going to factories had anything positive to say about this.

The presentation made no reference to E grade cattle. Perhaps there are not many of them there; I shall take that point. If that is the goal and where one wants to drive the breeding of stock, one should obviously drive for the E grade. We have an abattoir at home and my brother tells me that he never had more farmers coming looking for a flat rate. They were men who always used to go to factories. There are agents who also used to always go to factories and are now coming to us and small abattoirs seeking a flat rate because they have no trust in this. I would go so far as to say that many of them have told me they have been burnt by the grading system in the factories.

I presume the factories were very much in favour of it. The initial Teagasc position was probably to maintain the suckler herd to drive the quality of Irish beef. For both to happen simultaneously would be difficult. Given what it is trying to achieve it would suggest that the day of the Hereford cow is gone. Teagasc must keep in mind that we do not all have the Golden Vale. We are not all as lucky as Deputy Edward O'Keeffe, who represents the men with 150 acres or 200 acres of limestone land, whereas I represent the man with the 50 acres of black ground. It will be very hard to simultaneously maintain the suckler cow herd and to improve the quality. I hope it achieves that. Teagasc made the point that there is no loss to any animal, but that it is wrong. All that the factories now want is the U and R grade cattle and thereafter pro rata they are hammering the man with the Hereford and the Angus out the door.

That is why more farmers and agents are coming to our abattoir looking for a flat price. No factory will give a flat rate at present. Deviating from all Teagasc's research and the grading system, what is really wrong is the base price of beef here. When we see what can be achieved on foreign markets for the top U and E grade cattle, that is where this needs to be driven. I am not sure if Teagasc will research it, but the evidence is very clear. Factories want the top grade cattle and are hammering the man with the O and R grades out of business. I do not believe it will achieve what Teagasc set out to achieve. The factories must be absolutely delighted with it.

On the 700 carcasses tested, were they all different breeds and different weights? Was there a good mix?

I too welcome the delegation from Teagasc. This is a very worthwhile meeting. The jury is still out on this new grading system. There is a mixed reaction. We sent off cattle last week from our farm. They were Angus cattle most of which were graded. I did not see much difference in price between this year and last year. At the end of the day the price for the farmer is what is important. I agree with Teagasc's objective. The IFA is in agreement on this and there are mixed feelings on it. It is all about anything that improves the quality of cattle especially in our markets in Europe and Britain in particular. We need top quality to sell into those markets. I have a guarded welcome for it overall and it is probably for the better. I hope we will get used to it. Farmers do not seem to understand it — even I did not understand it. I was just glad my son at home got the money last week. It is all about price and quality at the end of the day.

I would be concerned that the offspring of dairy cows, including the Holstein for example, might be affected badly, as some of the previous speakers have said. These cattle might have no price. While we need top quality and we need to export top quality, we still need to protect the poorer animal that will not grade overall. The farmers believe that this is a system that suits the factories and that the factories are gaining out of it. While the system might have been introduced to improve the quality of cattle, the factories are gaining out of it. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on that. What is the future for poorer cattle, including the Holstein for example? Will they be in no man's land getting very poor prices? We are a dairy country and have many offspring from dairy cows, which need to go somewhere.

I welcome the delegation. We are talking about a complex issue. There is much anger in the farming community. The quality of cattle is not as good as it used to be because of the bad weather in recent years and the high cost of feed in the past year. The exchange rate with sterling has had a major effect on the price of cattle because most of our stock goes to the UK.

Moreover, while the dairy herd used to form the basis of the beef industry, changes in the breeding structures have meant this also has changed a good deal. Further breeding-related deterioration in the relationship between the dairy and beef sectors will take place because dairy farmers now are being advised to move from Friesian cows and calves to Jerseys. Consequently, we will end up with a new situation which will have a further wrecking effect on the beef industry. This move is being encouraged to achieve high protein and so on. Dr. Frank O'Mara's presentation mentioned grain and I note that grain farmers now are highly specialised and produce grain of a high quality. As for milk production, I note the existence of five or six grades in milk, which is tested for SCC, fat, protein, thermodurics, sediment and lactose. Dairy farmers are adhering to such quality indicators in a fairly able way and achieve high grades.

However, the beef industry has a long way to go. While the factories may be exploitative, to be fair to everyone concerned, when farmers owned their own factories, in which I was involved, they did not support their own co-operative factories. Consequently, the private sector has ended up running the beef industry. This raises a question mark over what went on as the best system for farmers in every way always has been through the co-operative movement. In respect of the market, although a great deal of product is sold to the United Kingdom market, great support is not received in that regard. Most Irish beef goes into the catering industry on a wholesale basis, which is part of the problem. We do not have a prime product and a visitor to Marks & Spencer in Grafton Street will find that most of the beef stocked on the shelf is British. A question mark hangs over our producers and factories as to the reason they cannot meet the standards of the aforementioned multiple, which is one of the high-quality multiples operating in the United Kingdom and across Europe. My point is that there is an issue in this regard.

A question also exists with regard to the breeds and I listened attentively to Deputy Ferris's observations on the price of Friesian cattle and calves. Most of the Friesian calves in my area are being sold for the Continental market at €80 to €85 per calf. This is a great outlet for such calves with which people are delighted and I hope it continues. However, while this takes them off the market, a contradiction exists in that as I noted earlier, the use of Friesian, Holstein and Jersey cattle means the quality of beef will deteriorate further, because Ireland does not have many specialist beef farmers. I understand we sell approximately 2 million tonnes of beef, including cow beef. The high price markets include Italy. Does the Italian market want grain-fed or grass-fed beef? Does it seek fat globules in the muscle and does it want yellow or white fat? All these considerations come into play. Moreover, the Dutch and Swedish markets basically are cow beef markets which seek heavy quality carcase cows, which we lack. Consequently, my perception is that we do not have beef of the requisite quality.

With respect to the recently announced Subway contract, from where will Subway get the beef? Will Dawn Foods use Irish or Brazilian beef? One problem some of our factories have is that they are mixing the beef. They are importing beef and are trying to average out the price in an effort to export. I have no doubt but that importers are importing beef into the market where it is being sold and mixed up with Irish beef, which also is having a serious effect on the beef sector. Dawn Foods should specify from where the beef will be procured that will be used to fulfil the Subway contract and whether it will be imported. I note the company stated all the jobs involved would be Irish. The role of Enterprise Ireland also comes into question. If it is only interested in jobs, will it neglect Irish farmers, who are the primary producers, as well as rural Ireland? Enterprise Ireland also has a role to play because it uses taxpayers' money. These issues must be raised. I acknowledge that Teagasc does a very good job. It is a greatly admired and independent authority. I refer to the great work being done at Grange by a good Cork man from Nad, County Cork.

My last point pertains to breeds. Friesians and Holsteins are being crossed with Herefords and Holstein cattle are being crossed with breeds such as Aberdeen Angus, Charolais, Simmental and Limousin. What is Teagasc's view on such crossbreeding? Where does it envisage such cattle will go in the future? While it is not an easy question, I expect an answer. Moreover, the British market always has been based on Hereford and Angus cattle, while the continental market used their own breeds, including, Charolais, Simmental, Limousin and perhaps others. Where has the British market changed in respect of continental-breed beef? Is the aforementioned crossing a disadvantage? The Hereford is a British-based animal, as is the Angus, more or less, and represent British quality.

Why do the delegates think Irish producers are unable to gain access to supermarkets in the United Kingdom, rather than being obliged to sell into the catering business, which is the lower side of the market? Why are Irish beef producers unable to sell their products to retailers such as Sainsbury's and Tesco? Why do such organisations import their product from other parts of the world instead of from Ireland? The same question applies to Carrefour in France and to other markets. A problem exists outside the factory and farm gates. The beef industry in Ireland has a serious issue because Ireland is able to sell the highest quality milk in the world into many markets and its producers are admired for that. Will the Irish beef industry die and will Ireland concentrate exclusively on the dairy industry, as is the case with New Zealand in respect of another commodity? Moreover, the trend within the dairy industry is towards commodity rather than added value and a challenge also exists in this regard.

I will be brief because many points already have been made. I thank Dr. O'Mara for his presentation. I noted that his presentation continually emphasised that the glass is half-full and predicted price increases for farmers. While farmers undoubtedly require all the increases they can get in respect of beef production, unfortunately the factories do not appear to view matters in the same light and consider the glass to be half-empty. Unfortunately, this also is what I have heard in recent weeks regarding the grid payments grading scheme, which has not gone down well. I do not know what is wrong and perhaps it has not been sold properly. While the IFA has agreed to it, many of its members do not agree. I revert to the question raised by Deputy Christy O'Sullivan on who will monitor this system. Will responsibility rest with an independent body, such as Teagasc, or with another body from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food?

I welcome the delegation before the joint committee and thank Teagasc for its informative presentation to members on topical matters concerning beef production. While I sometimes do not see eye to eye with my colleague, Deputy Edward O'Keeffe, more often I do, and like him I am at a loss. More than 30 years ago, I can recall that Hereford bullocks that were exported to Britain commanded a top price. Moreover, the Aberdeen Angus steak was renowned in every Irish hotel and English visitors were loud to proclaim that it was of the best quality in the world. My colleague, Deputy Sheahan and I live in rough terrain. Much of my constituency comprises the slopes of Hungry Hill and the mountainous terrain of the Mizen, Muintir Bhaire and Beara peninsulas. While we may not be blessed with lush land or the supreme growth of grass, farmers at that time and from that area were able to produce what I would describe as first-class quality beef. Moreover, there is much to be said on Deputy Sheahan's point regarding the family abattoir or factory that slaughters its own cattle for the butchering trade. Such abattoirs now have become highly competitive and give prices that will not be achieved from meat factories. Farmers now rely on them to buy their suckling weaning cattle that have been fattened and there appears to be a brisk demand for weanlings that are bought by the local abattoir.

Why were the beef discussion groups excluded from the recent discussions held regarding the beef grant schemes? Why were they debarred from giving their point of view on this important issue?

Dr. Frank O’Mara

I will respond to some questions before handing over to my colleagues to discuss some of the other points raised. I thank members for their questions and comments. We are pleased at the guarded welcome given to the scheme, albeit qualified by some concerns about how it operates.

On the Chairman's suggestion that members visit Grange, we would be delighted to have the joint committee visit at its convenience. Lest I forget, the Chairman also referred to the good work done on this issue by my colleagues in Grange. One of our colleagues, Mr. Michael Drennan who retired last year, led the charge on this issue five or six years ago. Mr. Drennan showed great commitment to the industry and his many years of work has paid off in the system that is now in place.

Members referred to the perception among farmers that factories are not paying a fair price and that they have done badly out of the scheme and their concern about the speed with which the scheme was introduced. People need time to become accustomed to any new payment scheme and may regard a new scheme with suspicion while they do so. The system is relatively complex compared to what was in place previously. However, the changes made to the scheme since its introduction have, on the whole, favoured farmers while adding to the scheme's complexity. Teagasc will seek to fulfil its role in explaining to farmers how the system operates.

As an observer, I believe the factor that has caused most uncertainty and distrust among farmers is the poor price currently paid for beef. The introduction of the quality payment grid has coincided with a period of poor prices. If the grid had not been introduced in December, this meeting would probably still be discussing the reasons for the poor price of beef. These two issues have become meshed in the same debate.

The structure for payment is separate from the average price being paid. Teagasc's work was on the structure of payment and in seeking to establish proper valuations for carcases as well as a proper differential for good quality carcases. Its work in this regard stands. The problem is that everything is being blamed for the poor average price at present. This is part of the reason farmers are giving out so strongly about the price of cattle and the payment system.

I do not propose to discuss in detail the speed with which the quality payment grid was introduced, the negotiations or the level of preparedness among farmers for the grid because Teagasc was not involved in these matters. For many years before the grid's introduction, Teagasc supported the introduction of a scheme of this nature and published research on the issue. The basis for a scheme had been available for several years.

In terms of the speed with which the grid was introduced, I do not know the best approach to this issue. If the system had been phased in, I am sure those who would have received a premium under the new scheme would have been hammering on our door demanding that it be implemented in full immediately, whereas those who would have lost out under it would have demanded that it be abandoned. It is akin to changing from driving on the left to driving on the right; it cannot be phased in. As I stated, Teagasc did not have any input in the decision and it would be more appropriate, therefore, to ask the industry and farmers how they arrived at the arrangements for the introduction of the scheme.

When subsidies were provided for cattle it was understandable that farmers who produced good quality cattle maintained they should receive more than farmers who produced Holstein cattle.

Dr. Frank O’Mara

That is correct.

Many of the other questions raised related to whether average prices had declined and whether farmers gained or lost out as a result of the introduction of the new system. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Bernard Smyth, to address those issues in a moment.

Teagasc has done some analysis of prices but we are not auditors. Some form of audit is necessary to do a good job on prices. Many members are familiar with the milk industry. The gold standard for evaluating prices in the sector is an audit conducted every year by KPMG. While I do not suggest the same company should be asked to audit this scheme, KPMG's audit is highly regarded. Teagasc could produce a price league, as the former IFA president, the late Joe Rea, used to do in the Irish Farmers’ Journal. However, the only real benchmark for evaluating pricing in the dairy industry has been a proper audit carried out by the company to which I referred. Only an audit would produce accurate answers to members’ questions. Nonetheless, Teagasc has examined the figures and Mr. Smyth will outline its findings in a few moments. He will also answer the question on the reason bull beef is excluded from the system.

On grading and the policing of the new system, Deputy O'Sullivan asked whether the man or woman doing the grading could be trusted. The system of grading has changed in recent years. The human factor has been completely removed with the introduction of a mechanical grading system. I understand the grading machines are checked by the same people who check weights and measures and so forth. It is, therefore, an independent system.

Two weeks ago, the Irish Farmers’ Journal featured an article by the Department outlining how the mechanical grading system works, including the system of checks and cross-checks used in the factories. The mechanical system has removed the human factor and each factory applies exactly the same grades because the same software drives the mechanical grader used across the system. While the mechanical graders did not use the 15 point scale, featuring U -, U+, U= and so forth, they were configured to do so. It was, therefore, only a matter of changing the print-out to have the graders produce the relevant data. The use of mechanical graders in recent years has been a positive development in achieving greater transparency in how grades in cattle are determined.

I will ask my colleague, Dr. Edward O'Riordan, to address the issue of different breeds, the possible role of Holstein or Holstein cross animals in future and what we are doing with these breeds. Several members referred to the Hereford and Angus breeds, both of which still command a premium price in certain markets. Angus beef is renowned around the world as high quality meat and premiums have been paid here at various times for Angus, although I am not sure that is still the case. While there is no doubt Angus beef is a premium product in certain markets, it is not a premium product in the high volume continental markets to which we export. These markets want a lean beef, high conformation type animal and they will return the highest price for these products. Mr. Smyth will discuss the Angus schemes.

I ask Dr. O'Riordan to respond to questions on the spread of carcases across the various grades and discuss the 700 animals we dissected as well as what we are doing with regard to progeny from the dairy sector.

Deputy Bobby Aylward took the Chair.

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

On the issue of carcases, slightly less than 700 carcases were dissected as part of the programme. They were selected from the various EUROP fat grid boxes. We tried to represent what was in the boxes to ensure the relationships we built up between fat score, conformation and meat yield represented the position nationally. Therefore, when we produce the relationships, it is applicable to the current population of cattle going through the meat plants. We chose animals that were in Grange, either from the suckler herd or dairy calf to beef systems and, equally, when we went out to the factories we chose animals from farmers from the factory floor on various days. We did our utmost to get a representation of cattle based on what was in the country during the intervals of the two to three years when we were doing the work. We are confident that what is in the make-up of the grid is representative of the cattle that are in the country. It is important that this was done. I am happy with that from a scientific point of view.

The beef industry has made tremendous changes in the past ten to 20 years. We do not always recognise that. As Deputy O'Keeffe said, in the 1980s cross-heifers from the dairy herd were the main source of cows that made up the suckler beef herd. Since the mid-1980s there has been an expansion and we have gone from a situation where there were fewer than 500,000 suckler cows, which were primarily Angus-Hereford type crosses from the dairy herd, to there being more than 1.1 million cows in the country at present. Of that 1.1 million cows we estimate that close on three quarters are now three quarter continental or more. There has been a tremendous change in the cow composition of the country. That has come about because even though the market signals were not that fantastic, farmers recognised that if they were going to compete on the European market we needed a product from the cow and the sire that somehow competed in that market. We needed the high quality continental animals from a continental-type cow with a continental sire. Those are the types of produce that are mainly being targeted for the high price markets in Europe.

The UK is an important market and always has been. We might like to see it being less important because with half the cattle or slightly more going there one could argue that if there is a problem currency-wise or for whatever reason it will have a big impact on us. We have to consider matters in the medium to long term. I accept that if one is on the receiving end of a lower price for cattle killed this year compared with last year one would wish to complain, and justifiably so. We must consider what is good for the industry in the longer term. We must have a pricing system that signals back to the producer that the marketplace wants a certain product and that we can produce for that.

If we do a mating this spring that animal will be slaughtered in three years. It is three years from the date of mating before the animal comes to the marketplace. We have to look to the long term in everything we do. That is only one generation. When we step back and consider where we have come since the mid-1980s one can see the situation has been transformed. If we keep driving that transformation we will have a significantly different enterprise in the country.

To return to the other part of the reasonable question asked, there are 1 million dairy cows in the country. Of those, half are mated to primarily black and white Holstein Friesian bulls. There are some Jerseys also. The other half are mated to beef-type animals. Approximately 60% of those are to early maturing Angus-Hereford and the other 40% are to beef-type late maturing animals. We recognise that there is a different product emerging from the dairy industry. The current programme we have in Grange, that we have had for the past few years, has been to try to develop blueprints of production to maximise the value of the beef coming from the dairy herd, whether that is either through steers or bulls killed older or younger. We are trying to come up with blueprints that will fit those into certain markets. The Jerseys are a case in point. We currently have crops of animals coming through Grange that are those crosses from the dairy herd. The question must be asked whether we can find a role for those animals which one might say would initially be of a lower specification than other cattle coming through. I have no immediate answer. I cannot say what the beef value of those Jerseys will be because we are only about to kill the first lot of them now and over the summer. We will be able to comment at the end of the summer as to what are the meat, production and carcase attributes of the Jersey cross animals from the dairy herd.

Are they fed on concentrate or on grass?

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

We have both. We have steers at two years of age and bulls at two years of age and we will have bulls at 18 months.

Are they fed on concentrate or grass?

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

The animals that are two years of age have spent two summers on grass, as a normal steer would. We have bulls that have spent two years on grass that are now being finished on a high concentrate diet. We have a bunch of animals coming through that are a year younger that would have spent the first summer on grass, they were brought in last autumn and they will not go out anymore. They will be finished on a high concentrate diet.

Where is the market for those Holsteins? Where do they go?

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

The UK market is a prime place for Holsteins, as it would be for some of those Angus-type crosses.

Specifically in reply to Deputy O'Keeffe, Teagasc recognises that work is needed. We are asking the meat industry to give us some signals as well as to what a market specification might be for those animals. If we know that, we can begin to produce a blueprint so farmers from the various dairy regions can have a stream of production to fit into if they are using those crosses.

What exactly are they fed with?

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

We try to do it as cheaply as possible. We use a barley-soybean mix as a general routine.

That would not be very cheap.

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

It needs to be cheap in the current environment.

It is not very cheap. I am all in favour of GM soya.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

An issue that came up was how the grid would affect the industry as a whole. It was introduced on the basis that it would be cost-neutral. While some individual animals would gain from the grid, other animals would lose but it would balance out as a whole.

A preliminary examination was made of steers on the grid. More than 600,000 steers were slaughtered in 2008 and 2009. We examined how they would have fared on the old price system prior to the grid or based on the grid system without putting in the quality assurance premium, which is additional as Dr. O'Mara pointed out. Approximately 60% of the stock would be better off on the grid. Some of them were a lot better off but others were only marginally better off. Approximately 39% were worse off on a per-animal basis. The stock that gained are those that are higher up the conformation chain and that were hitting the middle boxes for leanness. The ones that are losing are very fat animals of all grades such as fat grade 5 and fat grade 4+. They are losing across virtually all grades even though there is a temporary reprieve until later this year on some of the grade 4+ animals. On that basis I am confident that it is cost-neutral or better for farmers.

The other factor that would leave the grid significantly better is that the better grades that are benefitting from the grid have higher carcase weights than the poorer grades. U grades would have a heavier carcase weight than R grades, which are heavier than O grades, which are heavier than P grades.

The other issue that was raised by Deputy Creed and others was why bull beef is not covered by the grid. We are talking about introducing it in stages; having a warning period. The view of the industry and the IFA was that it should start with steers and heifers. Bulls are there in the background. The work has been done on them. Further negotiation will take place before the system is introduced for bulls. Some of the issues in the background in regard to the grid for bulls include the fact that in this country our classification of a young bull is one under 24 months of age. The industry is talking about having a lower ceiling on age for prime bull beef on the grid. Discussions have to take place on age. It has been mooted that the classification for bull beef could be reduced to between 16 months and 18 months.

On a point of clarification, is Mr. Smyth saying the grid as it exists would apply when the industry and the farm organisations agree to it?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

The same grid applies for the steers and heifers. All that might be different on a week-to-week basis would be that the base price might be set differently for steers and heifers. I am not 100% certain whether the same grid will apply to bulls. There were slight differences in some of the research on the bulls. There might not have been as great a difference between the grids but I am subject to correction from Dr. O'Riordan or Dr. O'Mara. There still needs to be negotiation with regard to bulls even though some discussions would have taken place.

What is the situation with regard to cows?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Cows are not on the new system.

Are they on the old system?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Yes. Only steers and heifers are covered under the new system. That is the case with the bulls and the cost-neutral. The question of the Angus and Hereford breeds was raised by a number of members. That was our prime product in past years into the United Kingdom and it was a premium product. Angus and Hereford breeds are still a premium product in terms of eating quality. The grid would not bring out the strongest points because they are not going to be high up the conformation stakes.

The Acting Chairman made the point that he sold some Angus and they were similar to before. While the Angus and Hereford breeds are not as good in conformation, the certified Angus scheme and the Hereford prime scheme have agreements with the factories dealing with them whereby the factories pay a premium over and above the base price. The premium for both the Hereford and Angus, between the people representing them and the factory representatives, was renegotiated after the grid and there was a small upward change in the premium. I understand those people are happy. They are not making a fortune more but they are no worse-off. They are as well-off as they were previously. While they are still vitally important animals, we killed over 1 million prime animals in 2008 and 2009, between steers and heifers. The certified Angus scheme would have 40,000 to 50,000 animals but at most maybe 5% of our national kill of steers and heifers are in the certified Angus scheme and many of them are from the dairy herd.

The Hereford prime scheme is not as big in terms of branding and marketing. While there might be a lot of Herefords they might not all be in the Hereford prime scheme as it covers approximately 2% or a little less of the national kill, perhaps 20,000 animals per year.

Deputy Ferris made the point that the system is complicated and there is a lot of confusion. I agree with him that it is a complicated system compared with what we are used to and it will take a little bit of time. Teagasc is involved in organising events to educate farmers and bring them up to speed on the scheme.

Should this not have happened before the scheme was introduced?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

That would always have been ongoing. Teagasc was involved in a significant amount of work on the suckler herd scheme over the years and in breeding for quality and for the European market. This has been our major objective on the breeding side since the late 1990s and grassland is a key issue with regard to keeping costs down.

The animal breeding programme is wrong anyway because we have too liberal an approach to imports and every Tom, Dick and Harry imports. New Zealand is a dairying country and they cannot make a success of their beef industry. I have visited that country twice or three times. They dispose of all the Jersey bull calves by putting them into a skip.

I do not wish to bring my own business into this discussion but last year my farm raised a lot of Friesian bull calves and they sold at the mart and most of them went to Spain. How can the Spanish make such a success of Friesian Holstein? I followed through on my calves recently to find out about them and I was told they are doing very well. How can they make a success while we are unable to do so in Ireland? Is it because of the feed or because of our management? What is the problem? I do not wish to talk about my own business but Brazilian beef being imported causes Ireland the most headaches. The Brazilian breeds are not the traditional breeds; they are the breeds one would see in schoolbooks. In Argentina the Angus is the dominant breed and they have only a very small number of other continental breeds. Their Angus breed is not the same as ours, it is a different Angus. Is there a problem with the competition in the industry? Farmers are all about competition. Years ago we had a huge market for live cattle to the UK and the dead trade and competition kept the price up. We have lost our live trade to the UK where we used to send 300,000 or 400,000 cattle. This is quite an issue. Farmers are up in arms about the price they are getting and they cannot all be wrong. They knocked down their co-operative meat factories because they did not support them or supply them. The beef industry is one of the greatest problems in farming for politicians of all persuasions. We are abused day and night over the factories and what goes on. There must be some issue there that needs to be sorted out so that there is more transparency and a more peaceful approach to the problem can be achieved.

Had Mr. Smyth finished his presentation? If so, he may answer all the questions now, including the extra questions from Deputy O'Keeffe.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

I wish to refer to one other item. Deputy P. J. Sheehan spoke about beef groups, that there is funding for dairy discussion groups and none for beef groups. We would welcome beef group funding if it was available. Deputy O'Keeffe raised the question of the breeds. In the past the dairy industry was the backbone of our beef. Before milk quotas we had a very small suckler herd and a much larger dairy herd. A by-product of the dairy herd was very important, namely, the breeding policy and the sort of animals in the dairy herd. There were more Friesians and fewer Holsteins back in the 1970s. It was a much more suitable product from a beef point of view. The Holstein diluted its beef merit as farmers sought to gain advantage on the side paying them best, which was milk. There are signs that because of the extreme Holstein, there is interest in cross-breeding and the Jersey is being looked at. This will be a backward step——

Backward in the way they describe it.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

——from a beef point of view. A dairy farmer must look at his primary product which is milk, where he is making his money. He has seen the beef enterprise as delivering a very poor or totally inadequate return, therefore, he has placed less emphasis on the beef margin of the animals from a breeding point of view. That is a cost and the reason the grid was developed. As Dr. O'Riordan and Dr. O'Mara said, all cattle are not equal and they do not deserve the same kind of price per pound or per kilo. The grid was an attempt to differentiate and give a fair market value to them all.

They all cost money to feed.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

I agree but the sums need to be done as to whether they stand up. Deputy O'Keeffe raises an interesting question as to the reason we send them to Spain and not do them here. Spain exports much of its beef. The climate for rearing calves would be drier than here and they might not have as many health problems. From my understanding of it — Dr. O'Riordan may comment — the feeding is a high concentrate regime similar to the systems practised in Ireland. It is not the case that the feed is any cheaper — it might be somewhat cheaper but not a significantly cheaper concentrate. As they are a little nearer the market, they send a lot of stuff to Europe. They might get a slightly better price. It is sent to an outlet on mainland Europe. It does not come back to the——

They are sending Friesian calves there now for veal. How is it that they can make a success of Friesian and Holstein bull calves, but we cannot do so in this country?

We do not do veal in this country.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Apart from the veal, if they are going for beef, we have some——

The weanlings went for beef.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Some Friesian or Holstein bull beef is being done successfully. The economics are reasonably favourable, although the environment is difficult. If autumn-born calves are well grown over the first winter and benefit from a year of good production at low cost on grass, they can come back in to be finished during the second winter, at approximately 16 months of age. Our spring-born animal is not as well suited to that regime. It is much more challenging to finish them profitably in this country. We are not able to stitch the grass time into it. I do not know whether Deputy O'Keeffe was referring to veal.

The weanlings went for beef. The calves are going for veal.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

We do not have a veal business of any consequence. If a dairy farmer, on day one, can get an adequate price for a calf that is not really suitable for the grid, that is the best route to take.

I agree. I have another question. I do not want to dominate the meeting. How can Argentina make such a success of its beef market? When it has beef to sell, it is mainly Angus beef. That is seen as prime beef in all the markets of the world. I have seen the Argentinian Angus cattle at cattle sales — they are no bigger than our Angus cattle. Is there something wrong with our marketing or promotion? That is the issue.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

We have primarily targeted the premium markets in mainland Europe. Their requirements, from a carcass specification perspective, are high conformation U and R grades, low fat scores of 3 or, at most, 4. There would be a definite discount above that. They are looking for fresh beef. There will always be a niche market for Angus cattle from places like South America. The beef that is wanted in Ireland and the UK is beef that has been aged for between four and six weeks after slaughter. On mainland Europe, they want beef in the shops as soon as possible after it has been slaughtered. Reference has been made to the English liking a bit of fat on their meat. We like it ourselves. The continentals do not want that at all.

They do not want the fat globules or the marbling.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

That is not an issue for them. On the Continent, the marbling that is a key benefit of the Angus and Hereford breeds is not seen as important. It is used as a marketing claim for the Angus and Hereford breeds. It is also used for Argentinian beef. I assume such beef will always get into particular markets at a price. Beef is not currently coming in at the same price because Argentina has a shortage of beef at present.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Brazil has gone down too. We cannot compete with South American producers on cost of production, given their scale. We need to be rewarded adequately for our levels of quality assurance and traceability, which are second to none.

Does Dr. O'Mara wish to contribute further? We will wind up now because it is 2 p.m.

Dr. Frank O’Mara

No, other than to say we have had a good discussion on this issue. From our point of view, we see the introduction of the grid as a positive development for the long-term future of the industry. Like any new measure, it will take a while to bed in. We hope people will have patience with it. As Mr. Smyth said, we will do our best to help to explain it. That is all I would like to add at this stage.

As Dr. O'Mara said earlier, the price of beef, compared with last year, is the problem.

Dr. Frank O’Mara

That is the big problem.

That is really the issue. The grid system will probably work when the price of beef comes right. People will appreciate it then.

Dr. Frank O’Mara

If the price of beef had increased rather than decreased——

That is it. We would have been in a different position.

The marketing and promotion of Irish beef is disastrous and hopeless. I am not blaming Bord Bia. I am mainly blaming the factories.

That is not a problem for Teagasc.

No, but it has an input into it.

Do the witnesses wish to comment on that? We are about to conclude.

I am not asking them to comment on it. I was just making a comment of my own.

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

I would like to make a comment that does not relate to marketing. We should realise we are almost unique in the world, in the sense that approximately 85% of what we produce has to find a market outside of Ireland.

Dr. Edward O’Riordan

We cannot cherry-pick our very best produce and give it to our best market. The quality of the national population has to improve so that we can provide a quality product to all markets. I am not talking about a few animals, but a large proportion of them.

The best thing I can say is that when I see what is on the shelf in Marks & Spencer, that is the end of the story.

As Dr. O'Riordan said, 80% of what we produce has to go abroad. The better the quality we have, the better the price we will get.

That is imported from a foreign land. It is not somewhere out——

I would like to respond to Mr. Smyth's comment about 60% winners and 40% losers. Would it be reasonable to observe that the 40% are the cattle that are largely destined for the UK?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

I would not try to interpret the comment in that way. Cattle with a fat grading of 5 will fare worse under the grid system than they did before it was introduced. They will incur a penalty, as will many of the cattle with a grading of more than 4. My comments about the cattle that will do better and worse were based on the original grid that was introduced in December. Some modifications have been made since the grid was introduced to reduce the pain on those that were losing a little bit. Those modifications will expire at the end of April or at the end of October.

That is a good question. What will happen when the expiry date is reached?

Mr. Bernard Smyth

I spoke about the 60:40 ratio. Without any of the modifications, approximately 61% of the cattle in the 2008 national kill were better off and approximately 39% of them were somewhat worse off. Under the current system, there will be somewhat more winners. When I speak about winners and losers, it is not as if a fortune will be won or lost. Many people will find that there will be a marginal shift one way or the other. It is not a massive shift.

Are we not facing a crisis? We will have no winter fattening — it will all be in the summer. As I see it, all the sheds around the country are empty because there is no margin there. It is a case of "loss, loss, loss".

The Deputy is talking about the market, which is a different thing.

Our meat factories have nothing to kill. Many years ago, when we had nothing only the fairs, all our cattle went to London and the midlands of England to be slaughtered. We had loads of cattle in the winter months. I could name several of the fairs. I am not the oldest man in the room, but I can remember them. I saw fine beef cattle being exported to the UK. We do not have them any more, even to slaughter in Ireland. The whole thing is facing a crisis.

It is a question of the market, which determines the prices.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Winter finishing is very important. This winter is disastrous. Last winter was disastrous. If we are to get involved in real markets, we need to produce beef all year round.

Mr. Bernard Smyth

Something needs to be done to try to alleviate these problems.

We have had a good hearing. Fair play to all involved. I thank Dr. O'Mara, Dr. O'Riordan and Mr. Smyth for sharing their knowledge with us. We appreciate it. Perhaps we will call on them again.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.10 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 10 March 2010.
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