JOINT COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND THE MARINE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 2012

Agriculture and Fisheries Issues: Discussion with NIABT

Chairman

I welcome everyone to the meeting. Before we commence, I remind members to turn off their mobile phones.

The purpose of this session is to meet members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA, Mr. John Rooney, Mr. Leslie McCree, MBE, Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA, Mr. David McClarty, MLA, Mr. Peter Hall, Ms Joanne Stuart, OBE, and Mr. Glyn Roberts, who are all members of the board. The delegation is on a two-day visit to the Oireachtas and during this meeting we will discuss with them issues of mutual interest, particularly salmon conservation measures and reform of the Common Fisheries Policy and the Common Agricultural Policy. In the context of the latter, we will focus on the greening measures contained in the EU Commission's proposal.

Members of the committee which preceded this one visited Stormont to meet their counterparts there and to exchange views with them. When Commissioner Ciolos addressed this committee, members of the corresponding committee in the Northern Ireland Assembly were present in the Visitors Gallery.

The meeting will take the following format. We will first hear presentations from Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA, and Mr. John Rooney. Thereafter we will take questions from members and then engage in a general discussion.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

Go raibh maith agat. I congratulate Deputy Doyle on his appointment as chairperson of the committee. I wish him all the best for the future.

I will first provide a very brief outline of the work of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust, which was established in 2002. The purpose of the organisation is to offer parliamentarians and those in the business sector an educational and information discussion forum around which each group can develop a greater understanding of their respective needs. As an independent, neutral and self-financing educational charity, the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust organises programmes for Assembly Members and business representatives. These involve briefings, seminars, educational visits and fellowship placements. All programmes are non-partisan, non-lobbying, mutually educational and informative.

The Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust's mission statement is to advance and encourage the business sector's understanding of the Assembly and Assembly Members' understanding of business. A primary aim of the trust is to provide Assembly Members with a better insight into how the local business sector operates, thereby helping us, as legislators, to make informed judgments on the policy and legislative needs relating to the local economy. We also aim to improve the business community's understanding of how the Assembly and devolution work and of how policy and legislation are initiated and developed.

Our two main activities involve providing Assembly Members with a better insight into how the business sector operates and informing those in the business community of how the Assembly works. There are a number of examples of how we achieve our goals in this regard. Regular monthly breakfast briefings are held in respect of a wide range of business-related topics. These are hosted by prominent business and political figures. Recently, we received briefings from NAMA and estate agents on the current housing and commercial property market. One of the most recent briefing related to the potential for social media and the opportunities such media offer in the context of communication. We also have an well-attended fellowship programme which offers MLAs an opportunity to spend a day with a company and experience, at first hand, the challenges faced by those who work there. I recently visited Rural Generation Limited, which is based in Derry and which is involved in the renewable energy generation sector. I found the experience very interesting.

We also engage, as a group, in educational visits to local businesses to learn about new initiatives and to hear about success stories. We also take part in annual educational visits to Westminster and Brussels. That is the purpose of this trip to Dublin. Our aim is to engage with politicians and other organisations to discover how legislation originating outside the North has an effect on businesses operating there.

The Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust is an educational charity and we have a desire to provide an educational platform for both the business community and politicians. Since devolution in 2007, the trust has reacted to the needs of its members by providing an increasing variety of programmes. In 2009, the trust engaged in its first visit to Brussels. This is now an annual event on our calendar. In 2011, we went on an educational trip to Westminster and will return there in September. In late 2011, the board of trustees expressed a wish to explore the possibility of a trip to Leinster House to meet politicians and key personnel and that is why we are here.

I again congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and I wish the committee all the best with its new scrutiny role. The Chairman alluded to some of the topics we are keen to discuss with members. Another issue I would be interested in adding to the agenda is the potential for greater collaboration in the promotion of food, on an island-wide basis, across the globe. We appreciate the opportunity to come before the committee and I look forward to a productive meeting and the establishment of a good working relationship between us.

Chairman

I now call Mr. John Rooney, who is a member of the board of the trust. Mr. Rooney is also either CEO or MD of Rooney Fish.

Mr. John Rooney

I am the gofer. Before I begin, I must state that I have already noticed that things happen very quickly down here. Since the previous meeting we attended, two sex changes have occurred. Leslie Cree's salutation has changed from Ms to Mr. as has that of Glyn Roberts. I could not miss out on the opportunity to make that observation.

I am John Rooney of Rooney Fish. We have been involved in exporting seafood and shellfish for more than 35 years. We have a factory in Kilkeel. We buy our product from all over Ireland. Being a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust provides one with an experience one would otherwise not obtain. We try to provide an education in this respect for the MLAs and officials. We have auctions every morning at 7 a.m. or 7.30 a.m. in Kilkeel and a few MLAs and officials travelled to Kilkeel for 7 a.m. They were still sleepy but they saw everything that happens there. It gave them an insight into what we are up against. That is only one aspect. Another aspect is visiting other companies throughout Northern Ireland. We try to organise meetings in different areas of Northern Ireland not only in Belfast, but in the Derry direction and other parts, to bring in all types of companies and show them what the business trust can do for them.

As well participating in a number of events in parliament buildings and further afield to provide greater insight into how the Northern Ireland Assembly works, I can be involved in trying to steer the legislation process. Most times it does not work but one tries one's best.

There are network opportunities for everybody from all types of businesses who are involved in the trust. If one is not in, one does not get the opportunity to see what is happening in Stormont or to meet other people. The most important aspect is that one must be in the place to see what is happening. It is the same in all government bodies. One has to see how they function before one can give a view on whether they are good or bad.

Many people in Northern Ireland would say that MLAs get paid for doing very little but whenever one is in the assembly, one sees what is happening and they work and everybody tries to work with them. The problem is to get everybody to agree with each other. The trust is a body that can bring people together to see if they can work, can put things together and show outside bodies that we can work together.

As well as my company, I am involved with the Federation of Small Businesses, which help small businesses in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland manufacturers and others. I have a few caps, as it were, that help small businesses and most of them are involved with the business trust and in that way they get to hear different things.

Chairman

That has given us a flavour of what the trust tries to achieve by bringing elected politicians and the business community together under a charitable trust. Mr. Rooney used the word "insight" about three times. That process provides an insight into how each side works and into their roles. I call Deputy Moynihan, the Fianna Fáil Party spokesman.

Deputy Michael Moynihan

I welcome the delegates to the meeting. It sends out an appropriate and important signal that our first meeting of this committee following the inaugural meeting yesterday afternoon is with members from the Northern Ireland Assembly. It augurs well for the future. It is important we co-operate in our work, North and the South, in every possible way.

The concept the delegates outlined is extremely interesting. They might comment on the issue of access to credit for small business, food companies and so forth. There are many mentors in organisations who assist small businesses and try to get them involved on the southern side. The concept of having regular meetings and politicians meeting those involved in companies of all descriptions, particularly in the food industry, which Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA, and Mr. John Rooney mentioned in their presentations, is vital. We know from many discussions we have with companies, particularly small and medium enterprises, that they do not feel they have a connection with the policy makers or decision makers and that the policies being formulated have a detrimental effect on how a business can operate. There is a sense that the people who make the decisions not only in our country, but throughout the world are out of touch with what is required to join in with the thinking of the people who are willing to take a risk, provide employment and move forward on that level.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA, referred to a concept involving the food industry. We in the Twenty-six Counties are focused on the vision in the Food Harvest 2020 in terms of increasing food production and the necessity for stable food production in the world market given that the population of the world is increasing. Senator Ó Domhnaill - unfortunately he had to leave as a vote has been called in the Seanad - and I had discussions with the officials in the Department of Agriculture in the North in September or October of last year. The concept of closer co-operation between the two jurisdictions in regard to the food industry is important for the future. On an all-Ireland basis we have a good image on the world market of having a clean green image in terms of food, built on the back of the primary producers and those in businesses involved in the further processing of food. The concept the delegates outlined is important. Some communities in the Twenty-six Counties have business forums and they bring business people together to discuss the blockages or the bureaucracy that has built up. Those involved in small businesses constantly talk about the level of bureaucracy with which they have deal and how can they overcome it. Governments have said, with the best of intentions, that they would reduce the level of bureaucracy but most of the time it is increasing. A programme was initiated a few years ago to reduce bureaucracy by 25%, but it is a cumbersome to try to do that.

The concept the delegates outlined of linking business people with politicians and policymakers is commendable. I would like to hear more about it, the benefits derived from it for those who make the policy decisions and those who are affected by them and how that will work for the future.

I am delighted to have the delegates here today. It is good that the first full meeting we have is with the delegates. It augurs well for the future. We look forward to further co-operation with the delegates at all levels.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

I extend a céad míle fáilte, a very big welcome, to the delegation. It is excellent that the delegates have come here and that we would exchange our experiences, knowledge and ideas because we can learn from each other and work better.

From the brief introduction of the concept of a trust we got from the presentations by Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA, and Mr. John Rooney, I believe that concept is a good one and one that we in Dublin should examine. Typically, here committees would meet representative bodies on a periodic basis generally when discussing a matter of interest or significance for those representative bodies. We do not have a consistent sustained communications where politicians learn from people in business and people in business learn from politicians. An exchange of ideas and such joined-up thinking is essential if we as a country are to develop. The experience of the delegates bears that out. It is a concept we need to examine here.

I am also aware there are very good working arrangements and communications between our Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, and Minister Michelle O'Neill, MLA. That level of communication and joint working can only benefit people throughout the country. There are excellent communications there. We are concerned that the overall EU budget and the CAP budget are maintained. One of the things we need to do - I do not know the situation in Stormont - is to monitor how we are sustaining the way of life that is the family farm, as well as looking at units of product and income. I am not sure we have kept a sufficiently close eye on it in this country because the number of people engaged in family farms has dropped dramatically. That is something on which we must keep an eye.

We must also keep an eye to ensure that the troika's expenditure limits do not inhibit our ability to draw down EU agriculture and rural development grants. If there are limits on expenditure it might reduce our ability to fully draw down grants.

The Chairman will probably rule my final point out of order because since yesterday the committee's remit has been reduced to agriculture, food and the marine. We no longer have responsibility for natural resources. I am concerned about proposals for fracking in the Sligo-Leitrim area which is the part of the country I come from. In Leitrim and Fermanagh, which is a beautiful part of the country, agriculture would be adversely impacted if fracking were allowed. We could also say goodbye to tourism once fracking commenced in either Fermanagh or Leitrim.

Does the Chairman wish me to speak about fisheries or will we come back to the subject?

Chairman

If the Deputy wishes to mention fisheries, he is welcome.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

The Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, was a bad deal for Ireland. It appears that we cannot renegotiate it because other interests are involved but we must consider making step changes in the development of our fisheries policy. We are not exploiting the fishing resource that exists. In particular we have good resources in harbours in the Twenty-six Counties. It is sinful to visit the harbours and see the extent of empty or half-used buildings. Those buildings should have people working in them. They should be generating income and tax for the State. People are unemployed who could and should be working in those facilities. We must examine how we organise and manage our fishery harbours. We should also ask questions about the CFP, given that we have super trawlers that are almost three times the size required to manage the available stocks and examine why we continue to grant aid the purchase of super trawlers. One could ask whether instead we should aim to improve the efficiency of the smaller trawlers. Those are my areas of concern.

Deputy Tom Barry

I welcome all the members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust. The turnout is impressive. It shows the group's intent. It is great to see this level of engagement.

I wear a number of hats as an agribusiness person, a farmer and a biochemist. It is remarkable that many of these aspects tie in together. I recognise the need and the importance of strong linkages between business and legislators. I smiled when Mr. Rooney referred to the possibility of steering legislation in the correct direction. It is important because business moves all the time. It is constantly changing. Those who understand business most are those at the cutting edge. There is always a chance that legislation might hinder something that is working well. One needs an input from business people at the correct time to say whether it makes sense. In most instances business people have a no-nonsense approach. Their time is money and they just want to move on and get on with things. Sometimes that does not sit well with politicians because they move in a different way. When a forum comes together both sides realise where the other people are coming from, which is important.

On a practical level, the businesses I do most trade with are in the Republic but recently a business was taken over by a company in Northern Ireland. It made me realise the importance of having linkages with Northern Ireland. We will see more of that and it is important for agriculture that we examine the situation together to see what the implications are on a countrywide basis.

Business linkages with legislators must be tailored and balanced. There are many organisations linking businesses but businesses can be linked that do not have relevance to each other. Such organisations must link businesses that can create real-time employment. Sometimes business organisations that come together involve meet-and-greet sessions but they do not materialise into jobs. That is the metric of a business organisation; that it creates jobs and opportunities, and that real-time employment is created.

Wearing my farming hat, CAP reform will have major implications both South and North. An all-Ireland approach would be helpful. The greening agenda is not relevant for this country. This country is green and with the current rainfall it is getting greener by the day. We are quite different from many other countries and that must be recognised. Under the current proposals, farmers such as me will lose between 50% and 55% of the single farm payment. That is a ridiculous scenario. This all stemmed from area aid. People who invested in their farms, equipment and buildings, did so to create a single farm payment. It did not happen by accident. It is important that we do not remove huge tranches of the single farm payment or production will be affected.

We must also realise that people in farming make opportunities for themselves. Some of us who started in agriculture built up good businesses while others who started at the same time did not do so because they had different abilities or a different focus. Sometimes trying to level the playing pitch does not bring the criteria that are required.

One point that struck me is that commercial farming and part-time farming are not always great bedfellows. I have often been selling a product as a commercial farmer and found that people who were part-time farmers – I am delighted that they had good jobs – could afford to sell at a break-even price whereas I had to sell for a profit. That, in essence, brings the whole market down and puts pressure on commercial farmers who must make a margin. I am delighted to see the delegation today and I look forward to engaging with them.

Deputy Martin Heydon

I have another engagement so I must leave shortly. I appreciate the opportunity to address the committee. I apologise for my late arrival; I was doing a radio interview.

It is a fantastic opportunity to meet the delegation again today. I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. At the recent plenary we had interesting discussions on food exports and food and drink in general. Even though I am a farmer by trade in south Kildare I was surprised at the extent and the value of exports to both sides between the Republic and Great Britain.

While the Six Counties are governed differently and follow slightly different policies on food, business and agriculture the fact remains that businesses and farmers in Ulster have more in common with farmers on this island than they probably have with those in Yorkshire. There are synergies on which we can work to the benefit of business people, farmers, and the agricultural industry on both sides of the Border. Any discussion or interaction in that regard is positive.

I am conscious of the difficulty faced by a farmer or anybody trying to do business who lives on or close to the Border because a border, by its very nature, throws up many practical day to day issues and problems. However, the more discussion we have the more we can understand those difficulties and try to address them in practical ways.

I will skip over the part about the fisheries, being from an inland county; there are people here who are more qualified to speak on that than me. I am delighted to have the opportunity to meet with the witnesses today and look forward to our ongoing discussions in the future.

Chairman

I thought there were a few salmon in the Liffey.

Deputy Martin Heydon

There are probably a few in the Liffey.

Chairman

I am not sure who wants to speak next.

Mr. Glyn Roberts

To respond to the general points Deputies have made, in addition to being vice chairman of the Assembly trust I am chief executive of the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association and we work closely with our agrifood sector and have a number of members who are direct suppliers and growers in the agrifood sector.

Our agrifood sector is a good success story for Northern Ireland. We may talk down our respective economies too much but our agrifood sector is a major success story for the North. Directly and indirectly, it contributes to the creation of 92,000, or one in five, jobs and, therefore, is a major player. It is a major area for growth as well because there is provision for perhaps another 15,000 jobs to come out of that. It is welcome that our Executive has established the agrifood board to bring together the various Departments and key stakeholders in that sector to push forward the policy agenda needed to ensure growth in that sector.

One aspect that is crucial to that sector is a strong and diverse retail sector. I am delighted our members have helped contribute to the success story that is Mash Direct of which Members may be aware. Mash Direct is a major success story and is a member of the trust. It got started by supplying to two of our members in Dundonald and it is now supplying to independents and multiples on this island, and beyond it, and has won a string of awards. Genesis Bakery in Magherafelt does 55% of its business with the independent retail sector. It is crucial that in terms of route to market the independent retail sector can play that role and that we get that dialogue between the retail sector growers and processors.

One of the proposals being brought forward by the United Kingdom Government is the grocery adjudicator to ensure suppliers-growers get a fair deal from retailers. That is crucially important. In terms of retail we have got better at engaging with the agrifood sector but it is a major success story and something about which we should continue to shout from the rooftops at every opportunity.

Mr. John Rooney

The first comment I would make is about the Southern Government bringing in the food manufacturers to discuss the problems. We have a slight problem in that respect in the North in that we do not have enough discussions with those on the manufacturing side.

Mr. Roberts mentioned the agrifood board but there is no representative of the seafood sector on that board. Its members are mainly farmers. It is all agrifood, with which I do not agree.

I can talk mainly about fishing. I can talk about other areas but fishing is a big topic. One of our biggest problems is that because of decommissioning on both sides of the Border we lost our fishing industry to the South. To give members just one statistic, in the North of Ireland we had 26 whitefish boats. We have three today because of regulations from Brussels, decommissioning and other issues.

I refer to another problem we have in all sectors, not just in the fishing sector. When I started in business I bought the product, processed it and hopefully got paid for it. Today, I buy it and process it. I am still hopeful I will get paid for it but I have to fight to keep what I can buy because of the rules and regulations coming from Brussels.

This is a small island and as far as I am concerned the seafood sector, North and South, should come together and fight with a joint voice. We have a problem in the North in that we have to go to Westminster to get the Minister to say "Yes" to what we propose. It is the same for the people in Wales and Scotland. They have to go to Westminster as well. That is a problem we face in the North.

Another big problem that will arise, and not just for the seafood or fishing sectors, is conservation areas in the sea. It will soon be the case that there will be no areas in the Irish Sea or in the English Channel to fish. They are trying to close down many areas because of conservation, wind farms and so on but those projects are being put in the wrong places. We are fighting for that in the North, and it is happening in the South as well. One of our biggest problems is getting people to listen.

The fishing industry North and South is very small in comparison to other big industries; Tesco would be bigger. It is getting to that stage. As a result we do not have a loud enough voice. When a big company comes in and says it wants to put something in a location we have to fight and argue, and we are doing that. Last week I showed one of the people around the factory in Kilkeel. We went to one of the producers' organisations that looks after the fishing end of it. He was amazed by what I showed him in our factory, and the gain in terms of added value.

I export all over the world. The food is ready to eat. We do numerous things, and we had to change our way of working to achieve that, but when that man was writing his paper on it he did not know that. He did not even know there were boats in Kilkeel, never mind anything else. That is the problem we are up against with all the laws, rules and regulations to which we cannot get people do not adhere.

Chairman

Does anybody else wish to comment?

Mr. Alban Maginness, MLA

Could I raise an issue which affects farmers and the rural community, that is, the issue of renewable energy. I am not sure whether the members have a direct interest in that as an agricultural committee but it is something I believe has huge potential throughout this island. I do not believe we are maximising the opportunities that exist both in rural communities and in terms of offshore development. Mr. Rooney touched on that in his contribution. As an island we are blessed with three things: wind, which we are not always pleased with; tidal power, which is a very important resource, and the marine resource for the generation of renewable energy; and grass. Those three resources together are a unique combination which add substantially to our potential. If we were in the middle of Europe we would have none of those but being an island in the Atlantic we have an opportunity of developing renewable energy to the extent that I believe it could revive rural communities that have fallen on evil days in terms of their local economies. I do not sense that we, as two jurisdictions on the one island, are addressing this issue jointly. It should be an area that both Governments on this island should address because the potential is so large. I would urge representatives from both sides of the island to come together and look at these issues in a more systematic fashion, and have officials from both Governments looking at these matters so that we can develop a renewable energy industry that spans right across this island because that is a natural fix. I spoke earlier in another session about taking politics out of business and industry. If there is any politics in renewable energy, that should be taken out of it as well. Both parts of this island should really concentrate on building up our capacity on both sides of the Border. At present I do not sense that. I note that there are serious efforts on both sides of the Border but, nonetheless, doing it jointly would have a remarkable impact. One can see what is happening in Scotland already. We are not maximising or opportunities here, either North or South.

Chairman

Mr. Rooney has something to add.

Mr. John Rooney

The fishing sector in general is not against wind farms. Satellite navigation in a car will take one from A to B. If somebody is building a road and comes to a mountain, hopefully, he or she will go around or to the side of it rather than go through it. We use satellite navigation on the sea. In some of these areas, not only where there are wind farms but conservation areas of all types, the mountain in the middle is where they could put these structures as they would not affect others as much. This is our problem. This is where both Governments need to get together. Seafood, in general, creates many jobs, not only on the seafood side but also with those who provide supplies and elsewhere. We are not against wind farms because they may reduce my electricity bill. When one pays £15,000 a month for electricity, one would like to get the cost reduced drastically.

Senator Pat O’Neill

I apologise for being late. The Seanad held a couple of votes which, unfortunately, the Government lost.

As I am late, I do not know what discussion there has been on CAP reform. I would ask those present, whether the business community and MLAs, to lobby Westminster on the CAP budget because it must be agreed by the Heads of Government and the British Government is opposed to continuing support for the CAP budget as it is. No matter which side of the Border one is on, it is a green island, known as an island of food. The island produces the finest food in the world on both sides of the Border. As CAP reform will define agriculture on both sides of the Border for the next seven years and the CAP budget will be decided during the Irish Presidency from January next until June, I would ask that the MLAs would lobby Westminster to keep the CAP budget in place.

We need co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda. An interesting statistic was mentioned in the Seanad this morning. One of the Members from Louth stated that Louth County Council dealt with 50 tonnes of hazardous waste from diesel laundering per month in 2011 whereas it dealth with seven tonnes per month in 2009. It shows how big this industry has become. It affects retail, agriculture, fishing and all businesses because it is a matter of competitiveness. Some of this laundered diesel is even being exported to England. It is important that there is co-operation between the Garda and the PSNI to stamp this out. Given the rise in the levels of hazardous waste dealt with by Louth County Council, from seven tonnes a month in 2009 to 50 tonnes a month in 2011, what are the local authorities on the northern side of the Border and other local authorities in Ireland having to deal with? It is important that we get co-operation between the Garda and the PSNI in this matter. I would also ask that the MLAs would lobby Westminster to support the CAP budget and that it be left in place.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I apologise for being late. As Senator O'Neill said, there were votes in the Seanad. As the Opposition, of which I am a member, won it by one vote, one can understand the reasons I had to be present. I am sorry if I sound like I am indulging myself but considering the massive majority the Government enjoys in both Houses, it is a rather rare occurrence. That is for another day.

I wanted to pick up on what Mr. Maginness stated about energy in the context of sludge. Senator O'Neill spoke of this as a cross-Border issue. While this committee, under its previous configuration, dealt with the issue of hydraulic fracturing or fracking, it is an an all-island issue. I would reiterate, in a different context, what Senator O'Neill asked, namely, that the MLAs would keep a close watch on how this is developing, particularly in Northern Ireland.

The companies that are involved in fracking are operating in Fermanagh. The UK Government has a different approach. It is much farther advanced. My colleague, Deputy Colreavy, would know about this as well. The Lough Allen basin or the Bundoran shale area straddles the Border and does not recognise any land frontiers. It covers Fermanagh, south Donegal and a small part of Sligo, but mainly the two areas of Leitrim and into west Cavan.

As I stated, the UK Government is much more advanced in that it has taken a position on this because hydraulic fracturing is already under way in England. Those who follow this will be aware that a House of Commons select committee published a report six months ago where it did not decide one way or the other, and was somewhat neutral on it. A number of other countries have already banned hydraulic fracturing outright. Indeed, most recently, one of the larger oil exploration companies, Exxon, pulled out of Poland because the reserves are not as suggested. They are about one tenth of what they said, which also raises questions about the stories the licence applicants here are putting out about the resources under the ground.

For those who are not aware of this, the main company involved is called Tamboran Resources. This Australian-based company states that if the gas were to be extracted from both Fermanagh and Leitrim-Sligo, it would contribute over 60% of the island's energy needs. That will give an idea of the spin the company is putting on this but in light of what has been happening in Poland, it has not been decided definitively what the resources are.

The main reason I raise this is because it is a cross-Border issue and because the UK Government has a different policy to that of the Irish Government. The Irish Government has yet to develop a policy on fracking. It has instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to carry out a systematic report following an interim report which did not really indicate that all was well. To put it at its most blunt, as many will be aware, both sides of the Border, Fermanagh and Leitrim, is a lakeland region. Hydraulic fracturing involves sinking wells using millions of tonnes of water, which is then waste and can be somewhat toxic. Nobody can identify what environmental impact this hydraulic fracturing process will have on ground water. One can understand the real concerns among the people in the area, with so many lakes and rivers in Fermanagh, Leitrim and Cavan. As members here will be aware, on a more national level there is talk of using the Shannon as a reservoir to supply Dublin with water.

I ask that the MLAs would watch how this issue develops because it could have serious environmental implications. Naturally, agriculture would be the first sector affected if there was to be any suggestion that the ground water was contaminating the land. I will not dwell on the point too much and I am grateful to the Chairman for indulging me on this. It is because Mr. Maginness raised renewable energies. One side of the argument being made is that this is a most wonderful development of tremendous benefit, considering that energy will be one of the main issues, along with food, to confront the world over the next generation. It is vitally important that they acquaint themselves with it if they have not done so and that they ensure their interests on the northern side of the Border are protected from an environmental protection point of view.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

The delegation is honoured to have representatives from Monaghan, Leitrim and Sligo. There are at least three present and others are in the public Gallery. A number of them are well aware of fracking. I was delighted and surprised that Deputy Colreavy raised the issue given natural resources are no longer the committee's responsibility and I was even more surprised that Senator Mooney raised it. It has been discussed twice, therefore, and fair play to them for their persistence.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I was in the Upper House earlier and I was isolated from what was going on at the meeting but I felt I should add my own contribution. We work in tandem on this and we are ad idem on it.

Chairman

Deputy Colreavy prefaced his comments by saying I might rule him out of order, which meant I could not do so.

Senator Paschal Mooney

That explains why the Chairman was allowing such indulgence.

Chairman

Following his kind words about me yesterday, I felt obliged to let him have his say.

Deputy Michael Colreavy

We are even now.

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

Fracking has caused great concern in the entire north-west area. A number of people are firmly opposed to it while others are intent on forcing it through, regardless of what locals think. It is important that their voice is heard and that a proper analysis is carried out on this process and its long-term implications. It is an emerging technology and we do not know its long-term impacts. I do not think we should rush into anything about which we do not know the implications.

I am a member of the enterprise committee in the Assembly and we previously engaged with the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Communications and Natural Resources. Fracking dominated the agenda at that meeting. The committee on enterprise, trade and investment will hear tomorrow from the Geological Survey of Northern Ireland, which represents carrying all the baseline studies and Fermanagh Fracking Awareness Network, which is one of the anti-fracking groups that has been vocal and active in campaigning against fracking and trying to spread awareness. Next week we will hear from Tamboran Resources. We are trying to get a balanced view on the issue and to give people an opportunity to make a balanced, informed decision on fracking. I am fairly certain that once people hear all the facts in a balanced and emotive free manner, they will make up their minds that fracking should not go ahead in the two nicest counties in the country at the minute.

Senator Paschal Mooney

Is the Assembly constrained in any way by UK policy on this issue? Can it make its own decisions unilaterally on licensing and so on regarding how to proceed?

Mr. Phil Flanagan, MLA

The decision to award the licences for these contracts was taken while the Assembly and the executive was in a period of purdah. We were awaiting an election and Ministers were not allowed to make decisions that would potentially get them votes. The decision to award the licences, therefore, was taken when Arlene Foster, who was the Minister then and now, was not acting as Minister. The decision was taken by officials and the awarding of licences, as stipulated by the British Government, is a decision that should be taken free from ministerial interference, we have been told. There will be a rigorous planning policy to go through. I suspect that will all have to go to a public inquiry although, ultimately, it will be a decision, in my view, for the environment Minister to sign off on whether he supports it or not. It is a devolved matter. The only aspects of energy policy that have not been devolved to the executive are nuclear power and incentivisation.

Senator Paschal Mooney

I am encouraged by that.

Chairman

I am conscious that the delegation has a busy agenda over its two-day visit. The members must take lunch now and, at 2.30 p.m., they have a question and answer with Mr. Frank Daly, the chairman of the National Asset Management Agency in the audio-visual room.

Today has proven worthwhile for our committee and, hopefully, for the delegation. It has highlighted the relevance of dialogue between businesses and politicians. I watched the delegation's earlier meeting with Deputy English's committee. Senator Quinn asked about getting business people into politics and Mr. McCree responded that while many of his good business friends admired him for being an elected politician, none of them would join him and they had a perverse sympathy towards him for being involved. Having a mix of politicians represented all sectors of society has always been an issue in the Oireachtas, including those representing small and big business and the self-employed. They should feel that they have an opportunity to go forward to stand for election. As Mr. Flanagan said, it is not the most family friendly career. It is also not the most secure in so far as every five years people get to decide whether they want Members to continue or not. That, naturally, throws up concerns for people in the private sector and the self-employed with regard to the security of their families. It is important that the reality is brought to public attention during engagements such as this.

We did not touch on salmon conservation, although one could argue the fracking issue does. All of these issues concern enterprise and business. Salmon conservation measures are important because we have been told one caught salmon adds value worth up to €1,500 to the economy, given the number of people who benefit. Salmon are a precious resource which need to be managed. Up to this week the committee had responsibility for the national grid. One of the frustrations, on the basis of what Mr. Rooney said, is how to get around SACs if someone wants to establish an aquaculture or inshore business. We need a marine policy. This is an island, which is a natural resource, and the way to manage our natural resources best is to manage them on an all-island basis. The grid is managed on such a basis in so far as ESB Networks controls the grid. We have had discussions on the Meath-Tyrone interconnector from the point of view of securing the grid and the issues surrounding that. The previous committee completed a report on our public hearings on it.

I know from previous engagement with the Assembly's agriculture committee that the common theme in all these areas is that it is best for both jurisdictions to move forward in an all-island, cohesive way and we should pursue that. If we want to develop an ongoing relationship, we should do it along those lines to establish what is mutually beneficial by progressing in an all-island manner. It was for that purpose the committee invited Mr. Frew and his colleagues to the session with Commissioner Ciolos. We met them beforehand to get their opinions in order that the paper we submitted following his visit reflected the all-island necessity for animal health status and referred to GM issues and so on. This means that whatever one side does will not affect the other. We only submitted the paper last week. We should keep a line of communication open to make sure the interests of both sides are best served by having due regard and consideration for the other.

Mr. John Rooney

The Chairman addressed Leslie as Mr. "McCree" but his name is Leslie Cree.

Mr. Leslie Cree

The McCree's are different tribe. If one thinks of the Cree Indians one will remember my name.

Chairman

I must admit I thought it was a typo. Excuse me, I stand, or sit, corrected. At least I got the gender right.

I thank the witnesses and I hope they enjoy the rest of their engagement. They have a full agenda. They will visit the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade tomorrow and are invited to come before a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. A British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly committee will also meet the witnesses tomorrow. I hope they enjoy their overnight stay.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 26 June 2012.