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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Mar 2023

Strategic Direction of Bord Bia: Discussion

I remind members, witnesses and anybody in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile telephones. The purpose of this meeting is to undertake an examination of the strategic direction of Bord Bia. We will hear from representatives of the board. All persons present are asked to take personal responsibility for themselves and others in regard to the risk of contracting Covid-19.

Before we begin, I bring to the attention of those present that witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action arising out of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, within reason, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as do witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. The privilege against defamation does not apply to publications by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance regarding participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The subject of today's meeting is the strategic direction of Bord Bia. The committee will hear from the from: Mr. Jim O'Toole, CEO; Mrs. Deirdre Ryan, director of Origin Green; and Mr. John Murray, director of meat, food and beverages. I invite Mr. O'Toole to make his opening statement.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss Bord Bia’s strategic direction. Bord Bia’s purpose is to bring Ireland’s outstanding food, drink and horticulture produce to the world, thus enabling the growth and sustainability of producers. Our focus is on supporting and enabling our producers, growers, fishers and farmers in order that customers across the globe can recognise that Irish food and drink are world class, that they are of high quality and distinctive and that our producers set the global standard in sustainable production and meet the responsibility we all have to the planet, to society and to future generations.

Our largest and most important stakeholders are Irish farmers. Ultimately, our goal is to help develop and grow the best and highest-paying markets for our primary producers, which, in turn, can help to deliver value back to the farm gate.

The value of Ireland’s food, drink and horticulture exports increased by 22% last year. As a result, exports reached a new record high of €16.6 billion. This performance was delivered amid a profoundly challenging year for the sector, most notably the impact of the war in Ukraine, inflationary pressures on producers and ongoing Covid-19 disruptions to the global supply chain. Our sector continues to operate in a volatile market. I will outline some of the key challenges it faces.

Bord Bia’s strategic direction is closely aligned with Food Vision 2030, which provides the sector with a coherent, stakeholder-led vision to underpin its continued development. Bord Bia’s Nurturing a Thriving Future statement of strategy was launched in January 2022 and includes a three-year and a ten-year approach. Our three-year strategy focuses on five key pillars. The first is building Food Brand Ireland - our reputation - with customers and consumers and further developing its proof points. Origin Green, Ireland’s national sustainability programme, will be at the heart of this activity. We will continue to build our strengths in sustainability and take them to the next level. We are concentrating on further building trust through sustainability and quality assurance schemes amplifying the work that has been done on the verified grass-fed standard. Farmer engagement is critical to the delivery of this ambition, and Bord Bia is working closely with the farming community to help navigate the challenges and opportunities ahead.

We are looking to provide better ways for our customers and clients to connect and build partnerships. This pillar recognises that the very nature of doing business has changed. That change has been accelerated by Covid-19 and the disruption it has caused. Bord Bia was agile in its response to the pandemic. That agility remains central to our operations and will be required in the years ahead.

The emergence of the next generation of digital technologies is a game-changer for both business-to-business and business-to-consumer marketing. We remain committed to some of the more traditional ways of doing business, for example, participating in key international trade shows, which remains a crucial platform for generating and building business in our sector. However, we are also embracing opportunities to connect with customers in new ways through digital marketing and other emerging technologies. Delivery of this ambition will touch every aspect of our strategic plans from how Food Brand Ireland is represented around the world to how we help clients develop their own brands.

Our third area of focus is around nurturing industry talent and developing client capability. This includes providing relevant and useful supports and training to the industry as well as delivering talent programmes. Bord Bia’s Talent Academy ensures that we are creating a pipeline of talent for the industry that is upskilled on relevant areas such as sustainability, supply chain, marketing, insights and innovation. As part of this programme, we recently established an executive education programme to build knowledge on climate change and sustainability at senior management and board level within the Irish food, drink and horticulture industry.

Championing insight-led innovation and brand development is the fourth area of our strategy. We are doing this in three ways. The first is through thought leadership grounded in consumer and market insight, the second is through the development of innovation partnerships with the food science community and the third is through ongoing bespoke insight and innovation projects aligned to our wider sector strategies.

Our fifth and final pillar looks at supporting and enabling the organisation and its stakeholders to execute strategy though continuous learning and development, best practice corporate governance and physical and digital infrastructure.

Looking further ahead, in the context of our ten-year strategy, Food Brand Ireland will drive differentiation and continue to help premiumise Irish food, drink and horticulture by building on our strength in sustainability. Our insight-innovation and brand development work will help create value through a real focus on sustainable nutrition. Around the world, Bord Bia will continue to capture value through access to new and reimagined channels. Delivery of these actions and our strategy will be fully aligned with Government policies.

The market environment in which Irish farmers and food businesses are currently operating continues to be challenging. Having navigated the turmoil of Covid-19 and the impact of Brexit to date, the ensuing cost inflation challenge that started to emerge in late 2021 and that was accelerated by the war in Ukraine has tested the sector to its limits. Food price inflation continues to significantly outpace general inflation across the globe. The OECD estimates global food inflation at 15.2% in January of this year while general inflation tracks at 9.2% in the EU.

In the UK, the single largest market for Irish food and drink exports, food inflation was 16.8% for January. Consumers are making choices accordingly. For example, we have seen a significant reduction in volume sales of higher-value proteins. Companies and customers are having to work extremely hard to retain consumer engagement in these product categories. The cost-of-living crisis has brought about significant consumer behavioural shifts, including trading down, reducing frequency, switching brands and seeking greater meal value.

While the consumer is pressured, we know that the primary producer is equally impacted. The ongoing inflated costs of energy, fuel, fertiliser, labour and almost all input costs on a farm are squeezing profit margins none more so than what we are currently seeing in lamb, which is in a particularly difficult situation as a result of from decreasing consumer demand, higher supply from our competition and ongoing high operating costs in Ireland. In direct response to the current sheepmeat crisis, Bord Bia has intensified marketing and promotion of Irish lamb this year through our activity on both the domestic and export markets. This will continue to be closely monitored and supplemented with additional activity as necessary.

Ireland’s horticulture industry is also facing significant challenges. Since the outbreak of the Ukraine war, energy and key input costs have significantly increased. The protected glasshouse industry has reported that its energy costs tripled in just over one year. Horticulture is also a labour-intensive activity and producers across all sectors have been reporting a growing and serious difficulty in attracting workers. This challenge is now posing a major obstacle to the operation and development of many horticulture businesses.

Notwithstanding the current cost challenges across the supply chain, sustainability continues to trend upwards in terms of influencing factors for consumers and customers. Greater awareness of climate change, environmental impacts and Government regulation are pushing consumers to seek more sustainable products. This is coupled with the continued expectation for high animal welfare and human nutrition standards. In certain markets, animal welfare is becoming increasingly more important for some of Ireland’s major retail customers.

In terms of planning our overseas activities, each year, Bord Bia undertakes a market prioritisation review. It considers the progress and capacity of each market and its customers and consumers to deliver against the four major strategic growth levers, namely, retention of existing customers, recruitment of new customers, increasing the value-add and delivering premiumisation.

Given its scale and importance, the UK remains our top priority market albeit operating alongside a clear market diversification strategy for some product categories with over-dependence. The US and China are also top priority markets despite some sectoral challenges as they offer scaled opportunity and high growth rates.

Our market prioritisation work enables Bord Bia to adjust and focus its resources appropriately to maximise the potential to deliver on our strategic commitments.

In the interests of time, I will omit some of detail on our export performance as it will arise during questions. Members have all the detail that has been provided in the opening statement. Our export performance of €16.6 billion last year points to the complexity of the trading environment and is testament to the resilience of Ireland’s largest indigenous sector. As an organisation, we are always proud to represent Irish food and drink overseas and are confident that we can stand out in a competitive market thanks to our adherence to consistently high standards of quality, sustainable food production and verification systems.

The widespread participation of Irish farms in our sustainable assurance schemes and the industry’s engagement with Origin Green underpins Irish food and drink exports. Our focus under our sustainable assurance schemes is to build the proof points that validate our farming processes. This verification is increasingly critical to maintain and unlock the best opportunities with customers in the marketplace. It is also, therefore, important that we are progressive and continue to ensure that our standards stay ahead of encroaching competition. Our Origin Green programme remains the only national sustainability programme for farming, food and drink in the world, and is the envy of a number of our main competitors.

We are very conscious that our ambitions, and the targets set out in Food Vision 2030 and the climate action plan, will require Irish farmers to invest additional time and resources into sustainability. There is an ever-increasing ask for farmers to participate in improvement schemes, record more data, and make more submissions. Therefore, simplifying where we can, and making access to supports and resources easier and more helpful, is central to our thinking and work. We are actively collaborating with Teagasc and the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, on how we support and engage with the farming community to bring greater consistency to our sustainability messaging and guidance.

The focus under the Government’s climate action plan is to transition farms to additional alternative land use through incentivised diversification options. We have already seen significant increases in organic payments to farmers to incentivise organic farming, and there are further targets of reaching 450,000 ha under organic as part of the climate action plan. This will bring Ireland’s agricultural land under organic production to 10% from less than 2% in 2022. The vision outlined in Ireland’s national organic strategy for the period 2019 to 2025 is for: "Irish organic food [and drink], based on its natural production attributes, being a desirable choice for farmers, consumers and retailers." The addition of one of our colleagues, Mr. Emmet Doyle, as Bord Bia’s first dedicated sector manager for organics, is critical to realising Bord Bia’s ambition under the national organic strategy.

On key priorities for this year, Bord Bia needs to balance the pressure presented by the current market context with the ongoing pursuit of our strategic goals. We remain focused on delivering for our stakeholders. In order to do so, we have three key priorities for the year ahead. First, to remain agile and responsive to client needs, as the effects of inflation continue to bed in. This means not only providing relevant and timely insight to help companies navigate the marketplace and shifting consumer behaviours, but also backing this up with responsive services and support that enable them to make the appropriate changes in their approach to these challenges. This can range from training in negotiation skills to helping them revise their brand propositions for the marketplace.

Our second priority is to maximise the opportunities in new and recovering markets. This year is the first full year in respect of which we will be able to say that the whole world will, we hope, have largely emerged from Covid-19. Even so, there are still market demand shifts. At the same time, the global impacts of production cost increases, environmental restrictions and climate impact on output, have resulted in shifts in output of production. All this, coupled with reopening existing markets and accessing new access to markets, is creating a definite momentum of opportunity, which Bord Bia is intent on supporting producers to maximise. Central to this will be significant trade show and trade mission activity, which will include ministerial missions to China, Southeast Asia and Africa this year. We include the ongoing focus to support companies on Brexit readjustment within this priority.

The third priority is to continue to drive global leadership in sustainability in the agrifood sector, both through the ongoing development of our standards and programmes, sustainability metrics and tools, and the promotion of our capability and global thought leadership through Origin Green. As mentioned, our national Origin Green programme remains the only such programme globally and the envy of many of our competitors. However, it is imperative to our international reputation to keep ahead of evolving needs of global customers, and the evolving environmental and legislative landscape, by constantly looking to appropriately improve programmes and proof points.

I thank the committee for inviting Bord Bia to address it. My colleagues and I are eager to respond to any queries members may have. If, for some reason, we are unable to provide the required detail, I assure the committee that we will follow up with individual members in writing after the meeting. I thank members for their attention.

I thank Mr. O'Toole, I was remiss in not wishing him well in his new role as chief executive of Bord Bia. We crossed swords a long time ago at Bord Bia. It is great to see him here as CEO now.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank the Chairman.

I will address the issue of the sheep sector. Mr. O'Toole mentioned the difficulties in that sector. Stakeholders, including sheep farmers, have made representations to us. They are worried about the number of sheep coming from Northern Ireland, and from the UK into Northern Ireland, into the Republic. Welsh lamb producers always had the French market as a primary target. It is stated that imports of New Zealand lamb into the UK have increased and that Scottish and Welsh lamb is finding its way to southern processors. Does Bord Bia have figures on that? Is it an accurate assessment of the situation? Is that one of the reasons for the depressed price for sheep here at present? We pride ourselves on Origin Green. How can we verify that any lamb being killed here is Irish lamb?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will take a couple of those points together. On live imports from Northern Ireland, the figure represents approximately 10% of output. A further 10% in carcass meat imports is coming into the Republic of Ireland. In fact, in the past year, imports from outside the EU, from New Zealand and Australia, have declined but they represent a much smaller proportion. The current difficulties the lamb market is facing are probably not directly attributable to those levels of imports because they have been relatively constant. In 2021, there was a significant decline in French production, which caused a tightness in that market that resulted in prices increasing. In recent months, we have seen the availability of lamb in our key export markets increase. In addition, the fact that Asian markets have been disrupted by Covid-19 means that some of the lamb from Oceania, which includes New Zealand and Australia, that normally flowed towards Asia has come to the EU.

There has been a confluence of a number of factors, although I am hopeful we are out of the worst of it. That is cold comfort for the producers who had to sell lambs in the past couple of weeks but this week is the third consecutive week that lamb prices have increased. Today is the start of the Muslim festival of Ramadan and we are a fortnight away from Easter. As lamb production in Ireland increases, it is hoped we will see demand in the marketplace increase between now and June. Notwithstanding all of that, our promotional efforts to support the sector have been ramped up. We have just finished, in the past couple of days, an additional lamb campaign in the domestic market. In that, we particularly focused on trying to attract younger consumers to engage in the category. It is important for the committee to appreciate that traditionally the cohort that eats most lamb is a little older. We are trying to recruit new consumers into the category. That is something we are working on.

I am not sure whether my colleague, Mr. Murray, has anything to add to some of my comments on this.

Mr. John Murray

The UK is a challenging market in its own right, and the Chair mentioned Welsh lamb. In the UK, there were very depressed lamb prices through January. That was the consequence of a number of factors. While the ongoing trade negotiations between the UK, New Zealand and Australia will not give direct access for lamb at this point, they will present a number of challenges in the future, as will their increasing production. Primarily, as Mr. O'Toole mentioned, consumption is our biggest challenge at present. We have seen consumption in the UK drop by almost 19% since 2019. We are tracking similar declines in France, the Netherlands and Germany and we have seen falls of between 5% and 11% in various markets over the two-year period.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I did not answer the final part of the Chair's question on the differentiation of imported product versus quality assured product coming through our factories. We have a very strict process of traceability so that only lambs coming from quality assured farms are labelled and traced as quality assured. The imported product that comes from Britain through Northern Ireland does not get categorised in this way. There are strict protocols.

I welcome the witnesses. I want to touch on some of the points raised in the eight-page submission document to the committee. I will go through them before I ask my questions. The document mentions building a food brand for Ireland, and the reputation with customers and consumers. We know this is very important. It will be relevant to a question I will ask. The document also states that in direct response to the sheepmeat crisis, to which the Chair raised, Bord Bia has intensified the marketing and promotion of Irish lamb throughout the year, particularly in the domestic market. Bord Bia speaks about its culinary promotions and more imaginative ways of using lamb. This is very important because these promotions are working. I use the recipes promoted by Bord Bia recipes. I am looking at ways of using turkey meat and other poultry meat. I ask the witnesses to comment on this.

With regard to planning our overseas activities, the submission document states that each year Bord Bia undertakes a market prioritisation review. I would like to hear a little bit more about what the priorities are after the most recent review. The document also mentions the US and China markets being a top priority. Will the witnesses elaborate on trade with Iran? We know the EU sanctions were lifted in 2016 and the then Minister, Deputy Coveney, led a delegation to Iran. There is great potential demand for dairy, beef and mutton in the Middle East. I want to ask about the Middle East and Iran because I have an interest in the region. What trade dialogues are taking place? What is happening at present? The political situation there is always volatile.

There has been much debate about the horticultural sector. The most significant subsection of the horticultural sector is the mushroom sector. We have had the knock-on effects from the end of peat harvesting and challenges at cross-Border level. We know that many people working in the mushroom sector travel across the Border, predominantly in Monaghan and other such areas. These are matters I would like the witnesses to touch on.

I will now put some specific questions. Bord Bia compiles the meat shopper insight report. I want to draw the attention of the witnesses to the report for the fourth quarter of 2022. The key export markets for Irish lamb were Belgium, Germany, Sweden, France and Italy, and high price was an issue. I would like the witnesses to comment on this. There is also the issue of Irish meat consumption. I also want to ask about Bord Bia's promotional efforts, particularly with regard to the EU, Asian and global markets and the Irish market. It is an important market that is in decline. I ask the witnesses to address these issues. I have several other questions I want to ask.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank Senator Boyhan. I am delighted that he is a keen consumer of Irish lamb and other products. I will touch on some of the issues regarding lamb. The Senator can come back in if I miss out on any of them. We run promotional activity in the domestic market. We try to target it at peak supply. Typically, we run campaigns in the month of June and from September to October. Given the particular challenges this year we ran extra activities from late February until recently. We use social media in an attempt to appeal to younger consumers. We know that because of inflationary pressure lamb is a high-priced protein and consumers are under pressure. Sometimes consumers find it difficult to engage with lamb because it is a big bet for their wallets and they do not want it to go wrong. We are trying to make our recipes more appealing to younger people. We use more modern and attractive cuisines. We also promote them through TikTok, Instagram and various other social media that captures this audience. Traditional lamb consumers are older, but we are trying to recruit people. We cannot forget, of course, that the principal purchasers of lamb are in the older cohort. This is why our traditional advertising on television is so important in the peak supply months.

I will now move on to the market prioritisation exercise that we do. We categorise markets, as I mentioned in my opening statement, in terms of the propensity of Irish exporters to realise the opportunities in those markets, depending on the category of the export involved. For example, this year we promoted the United States to our highest priority category because we saw significant growth to the United States in 2022. It has become almost a $2 billion market. This is very important for dairy and alcoholic drinks. We have seen, for example, that it is a market where there is growth but there is also premiumisation. Therefore, the team in our New York office is trying to make sure that we broaden our portfolio of products and that we are able to bring more exporters to the market.

China is a market that has been very important but it suffered because of the pandemic. In January we had the good news that the market would reopen. We did not anticipate this would happen until sometime later in the year. We fast-forwarded our activities and the trade mission we were planning for November will now take place in May. It will coincide with one of the biggest trade shows in China, which is SIAL China. We will have 17 companies participating in it. The majority of these are meat companies. As we speak, the first consignments of Irish beef are on their way to China. They will arrive before the end of the month or in the first week of April. Our team in China has been working very hard. In fact, the manager of our Shanghai office came back to Dublin for a meeting at lunchtime today. It is the first time that he has returned in three years. He will go to see his parents in Cork on Friday afternoon for the first time in three years. The team has been working very hard to keep the networks of contacts alive and well. As the market reopens they will be able to maximise the opportunities.

I want to touch briefly on the Middle East. Senator Boyhan mentioned the opportunities in Iran for dairy and sheepmeat.

Just a couple of weeks ago, we had the trade show in Dubai, namely, Gulfood, which is a significant trade show for the whole region. Ireland had a presence. If memory serves me right, we had about 13 companies on the stand. We also, in addition to that, undertook what we call a market study visit, where we bring companies out – I think we had 17 companies on that – in a whole range of areas that are looking at the region and trying to understand the dynamics and opportunities. That show, while it is based in Dubai, looks at the entire region. My colleague who runs our Middle East operation in Dubai has visited Iran to try to realise some of those opportunities.

Turning to horticulture-----

The mushroom sector, particularly.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

On the mushroom sector, in particular, we have exports of about €300 million of edible horticulture, the vast majority of which is comprised of mushroom exports. They are dependent on the British market for that. As I mentioned in my statement, energy and labour are constraints on that.

The Senator also mentioned peat. Peat is an ideal growing medium for mushrooms. The volume of peat that is used by the mushroom sector has been decreasing. They are trying to absolutely minimise that and are looking at woodchip and other alternatives. While there is not peat harvesting going on domestically on a commercial scale, some of that peat is being imported. There is a time requirement in transitioning to find a substitute substrate that will perform as well to allow that trade to continue.

I have two questions, if I may. I thank Mr. O’Toole for that. That is important. It would be helpful for the committee if there was a briefing note on some of the trade missions and promotional work to expand the market.

I turn to two other issues before I wind down. I am not asking Mr. O’Toole to do it now, but perhaps he could provide the committee with the briefing note on the Origin Green power to partnership, which is Bord Bia’s three-year strategy from 2022 to 2025. It is exciting, innovative and has great potential. I am sure there will be a further strategy once this one is assessed. Perhaps Mr. O’Toole might write to the committee setting out the strategy behind the strategy, the plans and how Bord Bia is monitoring that strategy. It is important and something we would be interested in. That is all I am asking there.

Finally, in my opening statement, I mentioned the issue of the reputation and integrity of the Bord Bia brand, its quality mark and how Bord Bia administers and manages that. Mr. O’Toole will be aware of the issue around the crisps company that traded potatoes that were imported from France that had Bord Bia’s brand for quite a considerable period of time on the shelves. There was to be an investigation. When there are serious breaches such as that, it has an impact on the brand. It has an impact on Bord Bia because people buy Bord Bia products and look for the Bord Bia brand. There are people in the business who ask “What is Bord Bia doing for me?” I personally like to source Bord Bia products. I think it is a strong brand. The brand is only as good as its integrity and how Bord Bia stands over and defends it. Clearly, we had an issue and it was a while before it came to Bord Bia’s attention. What is the state of play of Bord Bia's investigation? What is it doing or has it done about it? What sanctions has it applied in relation to this particular case?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I am delighted to answer that. In the first instance, I completely agree with the Senator’s comments about the importance of defending the integrity of our brand. We take it very seriously. I am happy to give the Senator detail, but I am conscious that it is a specific company, so I would be a little bit mindful of-----

And I did not name that company deliberately.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I certainly noted that.

We have privilege in here but I will not use it.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I appreciate that I have privilege as well. For the record, it was on Friday afternoon on 13 January that it came to our attention. I remember exactly where I was. That very day, the product recall notice went out. The mislabelling was not on the shelves for a long time. I know it was reported in the media that it was there longer. That was not the case; it was there for a very short time. We instituted an investigation immediately and the product was withdrawn immediately.

The first thing we have to assess in those investigations is whether there is human error or fraudulent activity. I am happy to report that there was absolutely no question of any fraudulent activity. There was an operational error in the plant in question and that was rectified. We have a certification committee that makes all of the decisions on companies or members – we have 72,000 members of our various schemes. They investigated this and the investigation is concluded. Sanctions were applied.

There is scope to apply a financial penalty for misuse of the logo. All of those options were considered by the committee and applied as appropriate. I do not think it is correct to go into any further detail insofar as we would not go into detail on any individual farmer who would not pass an audit. However, we are fully satisfied that the issues that arose in that situation have been rectified. The quality management system in the member plant has been demonstrated to be effective so that does not happen again.

Bord Bia applied sanctions.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Yes, we did.

Were they monitoring sanctions?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Yes, they were.

Does Mr. O'Toole feel that is satisfactory and it is within the guidelines of what Bord Bia set down?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Yes, it is.

I welcome the guests. I wish to be associated with the Chair’s remarks in welcoming Mr. O’Toole and congratulating him on his appointment. I wish him the best of luck in his tenure going forward. I believe it is his first time – of many, hopefully – before the committee.

I have a couple of quick questions. I prefer to give the time to the people from Bord Bia to give their answers rather than me being long-winded in the questioning. The key buzzword, for want of a better phrase, in Mr. O’Toole’s statement is sustainable food production - call it sustainable food production or call it eco- or environmentally-friendly. On the back of our climate action plan, land use and land-use change, a lot of the policy that is proposed or being implemented would be in land use and land-use change, where we have forestry targets. If those forestry targets were to be met – that is a big “if” – it is land coming out of production. We have nitrates regulations with the derogation under pressure and the potential drop from 250 kg to 220 kg or perhaps lower, and cow banding, which is probably cows coming out of production. We are limiting chemical fertiliser, which is bound to potentially reduce yield and tonnage of production.

Based on those facts and that direction we are going in - which is necessary, do not get me wrong – can Mr. O’Toole see the day coming where Bord Bia will not be able to fulfil its order book, let alone try to expand it? How does he see all that balancing out at the end of the day if we are to get everything right from an environmental direction? It is bound to reduce our output eventually. How does he see squaring that circle when it comes to meeting existing orders? Let alone that, we are all putting pressure on Bord Bia to expand and to get further new orders and new markets. I would like Mr. O’Toole’s opinion on how he sees all that squaring up.

What is Bord Bia’s role? It is to market existing product. Does it have any role in the development of a potential sector if it sees a market for a product that we are not already producing? What I have in mind is we had people in here who were starting sheep milk production. They told us the cheese from sheep milk is very much in demand and a high added-value product with great potential.

If Bord Bia identified a market for that, has it any role, or could it play any role, in assisting those people to get that sector off the ground? What role would it play in that regard? Could it liaise with the representatives of the Department or whoever else might be in a position to get a new product off the ground, as opposed to going out and marketing an existing product?

I would like to talk about a bugbear of mine. There are many issues about animal welfare in respect of calves that are exported. I have always asked why we cannot send calves out on the hook as opposed to on the hoof and why we cannot develop our own veal industry. That would create a little niche for some farmers who were prepared to fatten the calf to veal. It would eliminate the animal welfare concerns and would create jobs in abattoirs and wherever else. Is there a market out there? Could Bord Bia identify a market for Irish veal? What role could Bord Bia play in the development of that sector?

Our guests touched on China and the little bonus it was to get clearance in January as opposed to later in the year. Do our guests anticipate any further bonus from the potential BSE case in Brazil? Is Bord Bia actively pursuing further areas in China that may not previously have been an option or in which it did not see potential? We are back in China because of BSE. Somebody else reaped the benefits while we were out of the market. Is there potential there for a short-term, if not a long-term, gain, while the Brazilian beef is not accessible to China?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank the Senator. I will try to answer his questions in the order they were asked. In respect of the focus on sustainability, it is correct to say that our strategy is very much focused on developing and delivering sustainable food in Ireland and our ability to win market share and develop export markets. The Senator outlined some of the pressures of which we are well aware. There is regulatory pressure on agriculture and food production in Ireland. However, it is also important to recognise that it not an either-or situation. Our ability to win export markets is highly correlated to our ability to demonstrate that we have sustainable food production. I mentioned a number of times in my opening statement our Origin Green programme. Since taking over as CEO, I have had the opportunity to meet some of our major customers at a senior level for the first time. As I said, they are somewhat jealous of the work we are doing through Origin Green. Our ability to win in the marketplace is very much about being able to demonstrate our environmental and sustainability credentials. As well as demonstrating our sustainability credentials, our focus is on driving value creation. We want to see the value of our order books increasing per unit. That is what we are about. We are trying to target the best channels, customers and markets for the best products. We are trying to balance all those variables so that we maximise the value. If we are facing constraints around carbon emissions, our ambition is to drive the value of those exports so we can return it to the farm gate. It is not about the volumetric output. We are after the unit value. That is our strategic direction.

The Senator also asked about developing the sector and made a comment about a previous committee interaction with representatives of Sheep Milk Ireland. We have engaged with the Crosse brothers. They were part of one of our food works programmes, which are run in collaboration with Enterprise Ireland and Teagasc. Those programmes are about identifying new businesses. We have worked with the Crosse brothers in the past and have engaged with them more recently. Where there are business ideas and fledgling companies, we work with them. We have, for example, a grant aid programme and marketing assistance programme. We work on market development, insight and innovation with companies rather than providing capital investment. When those witnesses were before the committee, they also mentioned their need for capital investment. That is not within our remit but we would work with them to develop their brand, help them understand market dynamics and identify market insights. We have been engaged with that company in that context. If memory serves me right, there are seven farmhouse cheese companies using sheep's milk. It is a fledgling sector but as we mentioned earlier in terms of diversification, we are certainly open to working with companies and identifying market opportunities. We are familiar with feta, Roquefort and the various sheep's milk cheeses that are prevalent in the Mediterranean markets. There may indeed be an opportunity to grow those markets. We will work with them.

The Senator also asked about calves and exporting them on the hook or the hoof. We are keen to eliminate the calf slaughtering that is happening at a young age. We might touch on that issue later in the conversation. Last year, we worked with a couple of people on a pilot programme around the opportunities and dynamics in developing a veal industry. We did some trials with a company. Some of the calves we export live typically go to The Netherlands. They are all for veal production. They are processed in The Netherlands and are typically consumed in Italy and southern France. Some 15%, if memory serves me right, of the beef consumption in those markets is beef and veal so there is a market there. There has never been a traditional veal processing industry in this country. That is probably due to the fact that for many years, we were constrained by quotas in terms of the output of our calves. It is also a highly seasonal industry. Notwithstanding all of those constraints, we are working with a couple of entrepreneurs who are interested in exploring the idea. That is something we are happy to update the committee on as it progresses.

The Senator also referred to China and the disruption caused by the BSE case in Brazil. This is just our view, but we anticipate that given the scale of Brazil as an exporter to China, the restrictions on Brazilian beef may not last as long as those we incurred. There is some capacity for Brazilian exporters to divert their exports to Uruguay or Argentina. Many of the large processors in Brazil have facilities in other South American countries and are able to fulfil those orders. While there may be a small opportunity, and to be candid it is too early to say whether there will be or not, we also need to be mindful of the fact that those exports that might have gone from Brazil to China will find their way onto the world market and we will have to compete with that volume of product somewhere else. I do not want to be taking away the silver lining but that is the market reality.

I will try to be as quick as I can.

Will the witnesses provide an update on the protected geographical indication, PGI, application for grass-fed Irish beef?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Certainly. As the Deputy will be aware, the PGI application, when it was revised to include Northern Ireland, was submitted, if memory serves, in July of last year. It is under consideration by the European Commission. We have not yet had any indication as to when the process will conclude. We are certainly anxious for it to come to fruition and we are in contact with our parent Department frequently on that. There is no outcome of the scrutiny of that by the Commission, but we are confident that-----

Bord Bia has no indication of a timeframe at all, so it is like a piece of string, as far as Bord Bia is concerned, is it?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

We do not have anything specific at this point.

What about anything general?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

We are optimistic-----

Are we talking about this year or-----

Mr. Jim O'Toole

We certainly anticipate it this year.

I congratulate Mr. O'Toole on his appointment, by the way. I met with his predecessor earlier in the term of this Dáil and in advance of the original application being submitted. I made the case for putting forward an all-Ireland PGI application. From my experience as an MEP, I was of the view that it stood much more likelihood of success, but there was resistance from Bord Bia in that regard. The irony of it was that it took an intervention from a DUP Minister to bring it to a point at which we are now looking at an all-Ireland label. Does Bord Bia recognise that that was a failing on its part? Does it now see it as an important part of its work to ensure we recognise the value of promoting food that is produced on the island, recognising that we are too small a country to have farmers competing against one another, North and South.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Given that I was not with Bord Bia at the time, I am not sure it would be appropriate to comment as to whether that was a failing. We work very closely with-----

Would Bord Bia be in favour of a 32-county brand now?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

From a PGI point of view, there is merit in the ability to market beef from North and South. We have a programme of sustainability assurance and quality assurance. All the work we do on Origin Green is based on the Twenty-six Counties, so we have a very strong case to make, but if the approval is there for all-Ireland beef, we certainly have no issue with that.

The difficulty is that the farmers I represent might have landholdings. Having spoken to them, I can tell Mr. O'Toole that cows and sheep do not recognise the Border. There is an anomaly, and it creates a situation, to which the Chair referred, that when we have farmers across Ireland competing against one another on price, the farmer loses. The processors will find a way of manipulating that scenario. I say that just to make a point. It might be considered a political point.

There has been criticism of the scope of the brand in that it is too broad, not in terms of the geography, but it will cover, I think, 90%, which is very peculiar for a PGI brand. It is not what was sought for a long number of years. There has long been a demand for a suckler brand, a suckler PGI, such that we could promote the premier product that comes from Irish farms, which is Irish suckler beef. Has there been any discussion within Bord Bia or between Bord Bia and the Department in respect of putting in an application for a PGI in that respect?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I might defer to my colleague, Mr. Murray, on some of the detail of this. The research we have done shows that PGI status will be advantageous for Irish grass-fed beef and that, while it is unique in Europe, including in key markets in France, Germany and Italy, where there is a high recognition of PGIs across a whole range of food products, the addition of PGI status will certainly complement and enhance that marketing effort, which will be of benefit to all Irish farmers. We also are undertaking work to develop a proposition for suckler beef. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I will ask Mr. Murray to comment, if I may.

Mr. John Murray

I will make just a couple of points to build on that. First, the scope of the brand, as we understand it from our estimates, will only take in probably 60% to maybe 65% of animals because it is a grass-based PGI in its-----

Could Mr. Murray refer to the specific question I asked about the suckler brand?

Mr. John Murray

Absolutely, but that obviously brings a larger proportion then of suckler animals into that particular cohort of 65%, so this will-----

That is not the question I asked, with due respect, and the clock is running down. Are there any conversations taking place with regard to making an application for a suckler PGI-----

Mr. John Murray

Not at this time.

That is okay. That is the question answered.

As for some of the figures in Bord Bia's accounts - its financial statements - there is a reference to €4.9 million under promotions, trade fairs and other. Then there is a €44 million spend under marketing and promotional expenditure. What is the difference between those two figures, can anyone tell me?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

In order to give the Deputy an answer, may I ask him to clarify the first figure?

Within the financial statements there is a line referring to just under €5 million for promotions, trade fairs and other. Then there is another line referring to €44 million-plus for marketing and promotional expenditure.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will clarify this further as needs be, but the €44 million refers to the Oireachtas Vote we get for our marketing operations, and the other figure refers to EU-funded promotional activity we have sought and made applications for across a number of campaigns for horticulture, beef, lamb and dairy.

It is therefore the source of the funding as opposed to its expenditure. Is that what Mr. O'Toole is saying, that this is the difference between the two?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

That is the difference between them.

Under the promotions heading, in 2020 there was a line that indicated €174,000 on organics, but that figure was zero in 2021. Is that because that has moved into another line, or what is the rationale for that? To bring it to the crux, my question is how much was spent on the promotion of organic products last year, in 2022.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

That is an easier question for me to answer because-----

Okay. Maybe we will start from that point.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will start with that one. Our expenditure in the current year on organics will be in the order of €1 million. I am not sure about the categorisation of previous years but, obviously, we are doing a significant amount of work on organics at present. Just a month ago we were at BioFach, the organic fair in Germany. We had eight companies presenting there. We reckon that from that trade fair alone, €3 million worth of business will be written. I have mentioned that we have a new sector manager dedicated to that. We are spending absolutely in line with our growing output of organic and we are-----

Yes. That is because if Bord Bia is spending €50 million on promotional activity across the two lines to which I have referred, and €1 million, that is about 2%.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Correct.

That is in line with the current output, absolutely, but it is nowhere in line with the ambition. If we are to move from the current output to the ambition, the argument would be that the promotion has to be front-led as opposed to following suit because one of the barriers to people entering into organics is that they are unsure as to whether or not there will be a market for their product.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

It is not quite a straight line. We will certainly put in the resources to make sure that the market opportunities that are there - and we can demonstrate the activity we have to support the substantial growth in organics - will be met by promotional activity that is proportionate.

I will just say, and this is a point as opposed to a question, that we need to go way beyond €1 million if we are to create a market for organics.

My final question relates to the sustainable beef and lamb assurance scheme and the carbon footprint report that Bord Bia carries out. Can Mr. O'Toole give the committee a little information in terms of how broadly a report of that nature would encompass? Does it take into soil type or other activities on a farm? There is a lot of discussion at this committee around forestry. Are those things taken into account in different farming techniques, for example?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will defer to my colleague Ms Ryan on that.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

I thank Deputy Carthy for the question. As the Deputy knows, Bord Bia calculates the carbon footprint on beef, lamb and dairy. For beef and lamb in particular we have been doing that for quite a significant amount of time, since 2014. As we evolve the programme, the data we collect are getting much better. We collect the data through the scheme and through the sustainability survey as farmers answer certain management practice questions. We also connect to the animal identification and movement, AIM, database and get processor information and so on to calculate the footprint. Bord Bia utilises the Teagasc models for the carbon footprint and it has recently updated those models. We use data from the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation so the models are Irish-specific models on latest research in Ireland. We provide farmer feedback reports to all those farmers. For the last two years we have issued approximately 66,000 farmer feedback reports. We post them to farmers and make them available for download as well. The feedback reports provide specific information on greenhouse gas emissions sources and certain easy practices that can be implemented on farms.

As for Deputy Carthy's point on forestry, the soil sequestration models and the science are not accurate enough to integrate those into the models yet. There is a lot of research. About 30 eddy covariance towers have been put in on the Teagasc signpost farms. Deep soil testing is happening across the country. Those tests should enable us to have models and to integrate them at a later stage, but it is just not specific and accurate enough now for us to be able to stand over it.

That is helpful. I thank Ms Ryan, the Chair and committee members for their indulgence.

I suppose it would be remiss if I did not congratulate Mr. O'Toole on his appointment as well, just in case he feels I am taking the hump with him or something. I thank Bord Bia for attending and for the very detailed overview given. For the sheep farmers of Longford and the midlands, it would be remiss if I did not focus on sheep. I am always hugely impressed by the work Bord Bia does on Irish beef. Ever time I go to my local SuperValu, at least once per month, I am assailed by their 30% price reduction promotion. It is fantastic to see and it is clear that a lot of good work is being done. Sheep farmers may feel they are a forgotten component in marketing in Ireland. I appreciate that some work is being done internationally for them. Bord Bia would probably say it is not the case but I would make the argument that Bord Bia has abandoned sheep marketing in Ireland to concentrate on what I would consider cultural markets overseas. Would that be a fair assessment? Is Bord Bia taking the view that, as was rightly said in its overview, the consumption of sheep is now traditionally for an older market and for older people? There was an exceptional flurry during Covid-19 when people were doing more barbecues at home. We saw an increase in consumption of lamb by young people. Is that the case? Does Bord Bia have plans to revisit that? Would Bord Bia agree, at least in some part, that it has retrenched in terms of marketing sheep here and in the UK?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will begin by thanking Deputy Flaherty for his kind remarks. I have to disagree strenuously on some of his other comments. I would contend that Bord Bia absolutely has not abandoned sheep promotion and marketing development at all. While the Deputy is aware of the work Bord Bia does around Irish beef, in point of fact we do not promote Irish beef on the domestic market because it has a strong market position and the need is to promote Irish beef overseas. Lamb is important on the Irish market and that is why Bord Bia promotes it strongly. As I mentioned, we are in a situation where protein in general is under pressure and lamb is a relatively expensive protein. It has been impacted by inflationary pressures. That is unfortunately the case. As I also mentioned, younger consumers are inclined to be less loyal to lamb. It is important for Bord Bia to recruit them into the category first of all, and then to try to retain them. Approximately 15% of our output is consumed on the home market and that is why we have an important emphasis on our export marketing. The home market is very important for Bord Bia and we run significant campaigns across all media in peak supply months.

What does Bord Bia spend, roughly, on marketing lamb in Ireland?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Bord Bia's total expenditure on lamb promotion is in the order of €3.5 million per year. I might defer to my colleague in terms of whether-----

Is that the global, domestic and UK markets?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

That is globally. The UK is not an important market for us for exports but we have developed niche markets in Scandinavia, Belgium and Germany and we are also including our international markets. I mentioned earlier that we have secured EU funding for beef and lamb. While we are not yet present in some markets internationally, we have included activity in lamb in anticipation of gaining market access. We are conditioning customers over there so we will be able to develop markets.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Mr. Murray might have that figure. How much does Bord Bia spend on marketing lamb in Ireland?

Mr. John Murray

We spend just under €500,000 directly in promotion.

So, half a million.

Mr. John Murray

As we retain 15% in the Irish market and we export 85%, the lion's share of the €3.5 million goes towards activities in the export market to support that. To build on the point Mr. O'Toole made, the long-term trend for lamb is actually quite positive. The growth number we expect to see from 2018 through to 2027 is 15% globally. We are experiencing a European challenge at the moment because of the shift in the market but we foresee the market will improve in the longer term and even by the back end of this year. Production across Europe is in decline, which will create an opportunity for us. We need to be looking at international markets in terms of giving us that scope at times when the product is under pressure.

I was very interested in what Ms Ryan referenced regarding the carbon footprint. We started to track that in 2014, I think. Do we see a significant improvement or is it static as regards to 2014? Where are we now, almost ten years on?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

Yes, we have seen that for beef it is a 8% reduction per kilogram and for dairy it is a 9% reduction. We use a three-year rolling average for accuracy.

Is Bord Bia tracking that with other national producers? If so, how do we compare with them?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

Yes, certainly. There are always differences in how people calculate emissions so we need to be very careful that we compare like with like. Our models are very accurate and we have a huge scope in that we calculate them across nationally. We do look and we know we are very favourable in terms of our carbon footprint due to our grass-based systems and the fact we are tracking, monitoring and measuring.

How favourable? In terms of the top five producers in the world, where is Ireland in that league table?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

It is challenging but I would say we are in the top ten for both. However, some countries do not include land use change, whereas we include land use change. We track if soya is coming in. We use the life cycle assessment approach, but other countries might use the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change approach, which uses general emission factors. We have very accurate Irish ones. We are up there with the best in the world, certainly.

In light of the journey we are going on, should there not be an international template for how we measure that?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

It is frustrating that there is no one methodology across the board for carbon footprinting.

There is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change approach and the land-use change approach, and people report things in different ways. We know that what we do is extremely accurate and evolving as we work with Teagasc and the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, in partnership. Our customers recognise that. Procurement professionals across the world are getting closer to their sustainability teams. There is a greater understanding of carbon footprint and how things are calculated.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I am conscious of the Deputy's time, but it is important to say that the models we use are accredited. Our focus is on working with all members of our quality assurance schemes and our farmers to reduce carbon footprint, to meet the climate action plan. We are working very closely on a project, which Ms Ryan is leading, on a project with Teagasc and the ICBF in order that we will be able to make action planning tools and provide real support to farmers for them to improve their carbon footprint. From a marketing point of view, it is not necessarily where one is, relative to others. It is about what one is doing to improve. There is always that focus on continuing improvement.

I fully accept and have no doubt about the validity of our figures. A lecturer told me one time that he can interpret statistics 100 different ways. I have absolute certainty in the validity of our figures. There is probably a message there for us. Farmers have made a long journey and have made considerable sacrifices. Other agencies will come to this committee and to the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage and paint the farming community as the villain, whereas the witnesses' bear out that farmers have come a considerable journey, have done an awful lot and are probably not getting the credit for it. Is that a fair assessment?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I agree with that assessment and, furthermore, farmers have an appetite to improve. Some of the engagement that we have with farmers, in the surveying we do, farmers accept there is more to be done on their behalf. They are willing to do so and they want some guidance and support. That is something we are certainly prepared to do and are actively doing.

I know Mr. O'Toole cannot tell me where we are on the table, but if we were to use a soccer analogy, we are probably in the top 4 spots for Europe. We probably need to start emphasising that in the Bord Bia's marketing. It is a compelling message to say that Irish farmers are, at least, pitching with or, in many cases, ahead of their peers when it comes to carbon footprint.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Not only do we say that, it is accepted and recognised and has been a significant part in us developing markets and growing our exports.

I welcome the guests. I will refer to the mushroom and horticultural sector, because we have a big mushroom sector down in County Tipperary, as does Deputy Carthy in County Monaghan. The witnesses have noted the increase in energy costs, the challenges facing that sector and that there has been a decrease by 23%. Is that because the sector is producing less or is there less demand for the product.? If it is, what is Bord Bia doing to strengthen the demand, giving that horticultural peat is a major issue throughout Europe? There is a risk, which has been brought up here on several occasions, that we may lose some of our producers here to Europe. It would be a massive loss to us.

The representatives say they are putting their marketing plan together for the year to come. Do they give an additional push to projects for which demand has fallen, or would they be more inclined to give additional marketing to the most popular projects on the market? The representatives said in their opening statement that the UK is still their priority market, but they note some of it is overdependency. How do we get away from that overdependency on just one market? Does Bord Bia have a strategy?

There seems to be considerable untapped potential in the sheep's milk industry, from listening to the lads here the last day. Is it just market research with which Bord Bia can help such an industry? Can it do something to identify the gaps? Do the representatives see potential in sheep's milk being as big an industry as seems possible, with other countries dropping out of the market, because of climate change? The lads were saying here the last day that we have an ideal climate for producing sheep's milk. Can we replace in Ireland, with the proper set-up, what has been lost in Europe?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

We are working very closely with the mushroom and horticulture sector. The decline in output was more to do with a range of issues, including labour, energy and those kinds of production constraint, and the fact that the value increased because of price inflation. There was an increase in value, but there was a marginal drop in output. I do not think it is any single factor. It is a combination of the factors I outlined, that is, labour, energy, consumer demand and the fact that there is dependence on and competition in the UK market. This leads on to the Deputy's question on diversification. We have sector specialists in every sector of the food, drink and horticulture industry and we have a plan for each of them. We work with each of the sectors. We do not put all our bets on one sector and abandon another. We try to work with each of them, because it is about developing the entirety of the Irish food, drink and horticulture sector. We have plans, across the board, to try to maximise all the different sectors.

The Deputy asked about dependence on the UK market. It is our number one market. We exported €5.4 billion worth of exports to the UK last year. It is a huge number, comparable with what we export to continental Europe or international markets. While we had worked and continue to work very closely with the sector, to help it prepare for the difficulties that arose from Brexit, we must recognise the UK is a large population base that has cultural similarity in its food consumption and distribution and it will remain a very important market for the Irish food and drink exporting sector. However, there is a vulnerability in particular sectors, because they are only exporting to the UK. We were working with those companies to help them develop business into continental Europe, or further afield.

While we recognise and support the importance of the UK market, as an ongoing primary market for Irish food and drink, we need to be careful of an overdependency in some sectors, which could lead to problems. That is why we are working with those sectors. We have developed the Netherlands market for a number of consumer food products and we have seen progress in diversification. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Murray, with regard to the Deputy's questions about sheep's milk.

Mr. John Murray

We are tracking all opportunities. We see value-add opportunity through sheep's milk. More than 46% of all sheep's milk in the world is produced in the Mediterranean region and, last year, we saw 10% of Spanish farmers in that region exit. We will probably see 5% of Greek farmers exit in the course of this year, as well, down to cost.

That will create opportunity, but we obviously need to be careful around that to ensure we are not going into a marketplace that is not bringing back the right value as well. We are actively working with the Crosse brothers to see what the potential of that is and if we can leverage the network we have in those regions to get a better understanding of that opportunity. It is also about seeing how much of that value-add we can retain in Ireland through some of the farmhouse cheese operators that are using sheep's milk. That is a good, high-value operation. We would like to see that kind of integrated approach across there and we are supportive of a number of supports to try to deliver that.

I have a last point on sustainability. It is on an upward trend as an influencing factor for consumers because there is a greater awareness of climate change and environmental impacts, as well as government regulation pushing consumers to seek more sustainable products. However, are consumers being made aware of the additional costs to the sector? Are the retailers and processors even recognising that?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

It is a good question. There is probably still a long way to go in that story. In the past month, Bord Bia published a study across a number of markets that tried to understand consumer understanding around carbon in a number of different markets. Some of the headlines from that study show consumers are trying to understand what they need to do to reduce their carbon footprint and to behave more sustainably. In a recessionary environment, or certainly one where purchasing power is impacted, people are looking at what they can do themselves, such as reducing their food waste. They are also looking to food manufacturers to see what they can do. The demand we get from our customers around the world is that retailers and food service operators are trying to anticipate how consumers are going to behave. In some cases, consumers will pay a premium but again, in times where there are economic constraints that comes under pressure. Increasingly, in order to win our place on those consumers' shelves, we are just going to have to demonstrate we are producing food sustainably. That is what we are moving towards. It is quite a complex story and we do not know all the answers yet. Ms Ryan wishes to comment.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

As Mr. O'Toole said, we do much research on consumers globally. In 2021 we did a deep dive on sustainability attributes consumers were interested in across the world in our key markets. A key learning for us there was sustainability means different things in different markets, so in the messaging we give our customers and consumers in those markets we dial up certain elements of sustainability, be it animal welfare or carbon. Carbon is more well-recognised in the German market and it is animal welfare in other markets. In Scandinavia, people are quite well informed about sustainability and environmental topics, whereas in the Middle East it is more about health and nutrition. It is a nuanced message we deliver to our customers globally.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Cathaoirleach.

I wish Mr. O'Toole the best of luck. I am going to do quick-fire questions as we have limited time and I see Deputy Ring is waiting to come in.

What is the board's outlook on sheep for this year? Do the officials think it is going to be a depressed market?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I defer to Mr. Murray on that.

Mr. John Murray

We see the market improving at the moment. We are in Ramadan right now and as we move towards Easter, we are seeing some upward movement on that, but there is still a gap compared with where we were last year. As the year moves on, we anticipate a little more pressure on production across Europe, which will create a little more opportunity. We certainly see the number of animals and lambs coming through on the Irish side to be slightly down as well. We have seen that through some of the scanning rates that have been passed back to us as well. We see the supply balance perhaps improving slightly as the year progresses and we hope that will lift the market slightly.

Lovely. Are sheep coming from the North quality assured?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

They are not. The lambs imported from Northern Ireland are not part of our sustainable beef and lamb assurance scheme.

Therefore, when they are exported they are not presented as "Quality Irish" or whatever we might call them.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

They are not.

That is perfect. There is a theory out there among farmers, which we hear especially from the beef sector, that in promotions the board does outside the country, the larger operators, manufacturers or exporters of meat basically do their own thing. What sort of tie-up has the board with the larger factories? Do they just take stands on their own and do their own thing? Is that the way it has gone?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

There might be a couple of parts to that. When the Deputy mentions stands, most of our meat exporters participate with Bord Bia on our Origin Green stands at trade shows. We are participating in something like 28 trade shows around the world this year-----

When Mr. O'Toole says "most", does that mean some of the larger ones do their own thing when it comes to promotion?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Some exporters choose to take a stand independently of Bord Bia. It is not unique to meat and happens in other sectors. It depends on the market and their own particular priorities. It does not mean they do not participate actively with Bord Bia in other marketing and promotion activity we do.

Government policy on anaerobic digesters talks of building hundreds by 2025. What is the board's view on them?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

Ms Ryan will take that question.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

There is great potential in anaerobic digestion from a variety of different aspects. We absolutely agree with the policy around it.

How is there potential if Bord Bia does not currently allow anaerobic digesters to use anything other than a completely agricultural product? We are dealing with this for over a year now. How can there be potential if, say, from an Irish Water perspective or whatever, there can be no spreading of any digester product other than grass silage or farmyard slurry on a Bord Bia farm? How then can there be potential in having 300 or 400 digesters around the country?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

I think the Deputy is referring to the biosolids being spread. From a Bord Bia perspective-----

I am talking about digestate.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

There is still concern. We have been engaging with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, and Teagasc. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, still has concerns around the heavy metal content of digestate in particular. As such, we do not allow any raw or treated sewage sludge to be spread on Bord Bia quality-assured farms, but it is certainly something we will review in line with our technical advisory committees once the research and science has developed and there is confidence there are no risks to human health. Then it is something that can be integrated into-----

I apologise for interrupting, but this seems to be a long-burning issue. I met Bord Bia a year ago and talked about this. Some said by May of this year we would know more or have an idea, but now it looks like is going to be May of next year, from the information I am getting. Is that fair to say?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

I guess that is down to when the further research takes place. It is Teagasc that is doing the research on the digestate and biosolids and then the FSAI will take its position.

That is perfect, I thank Ms Ryan.

I read an announcement in the paper in relation to Bord Bia. I am not accusing the officials of it or saying it is right, but how do they stand over farms that are killing calves at a week or two weeks old?

I saw a reference to this in the paper. Again, I am not accusing the witnesses but it indicated Bord Bia had said they would have to be eight weeks. When you talk about veal at seven or eight months, it is not killing a calf for most farmers. This message needs to go out loud and clear. Most farmers around this island put their arms around their calves and mind them to the best of their abilities. They do not get them slaughtered in factories. Why is Bord Bia allowing this?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I might begin with that one. I am not sure-----

I am talking about the baby calves that are being slaughtered in certain factories around this country.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I want to be clear that Bord Bia does not support the practice of sending young calves to slaughter. There is animal welfare, as I mentioned-----

One second now. To produce meat I presume they have to have Bord Bia quality assurance. If Bord Bia does not support it, how can it be allowed at the moment?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I was going to go on to say that the criteria of our sustainable dairy assurance scheme is agreed upon by a technical advisory committee, TAC. In order to have accredited quality assurance schemes, that is how they must be operated. The technical advisory committee for the sustainable dairy assurance scheme comprises the IFA, ICMSA, Teagasc, the Department, ICOS and the FSAI. We have a meeting coming up next week where we will be considering this issue. We believe it is an issue that all parties-----

In all fairness-----

Let him finish, Deputy Fitzmaurice.

Most dairy farmers are very good farmers. Most beef farmers are very good farmers. What I am saying is-----

Deputy Fitzmaurice-----

Why is this happening now when we had the problem last year?

Deputy Fitzmaurice, let Mr. O'Toole finish.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

It is no problem. All those stakeholders have a role to play in this issue. We are fully supportive of the initiative that is going to hopefully transpire from that advisory committee where constraints will be imposed on the practice so we can eliminate it.

Is what I read in the paper incorrect? Someone was talking about a minimum of eight weeks. Who would be killing a calf at eight weeks?

Mr. John Murray

No one in their right mind. That is the reason we have put eight weeks in. We believe that any farmer who has to retain an animal on their farm for eight weeks is not going to turn around and bring that animal to slaughter. It does not make any economic sense to do so. We believe an eight-week limit is sufficient. In saying that, the TAC will review that age limit and may look to bring a different date in.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

It is important to mention that there has to be a multifaceted approach by all stakeholders to eliminate the practice. The sustainable dairy assurance scheme is playing, and will play, its role in this. The ICOS charter has been signed by the processors and they stand fully behind it. Everyone has to approach it from the various different angles. There are other areas like artificial insemination and breeding that need to be looked at for this to be completely eliminated.

That is fine but I would urge the witnesses to look at a limit of six months or a year before the likes of that would even be allowed. On the protected geographical indication, PGI, status, how much would that mean per kilogram for the farmer who produces the animal on the grass, or mostly grass?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

That is a great question and if I was able to answer it I would be a wise man. It is not possible to put a cent per kilogram premium on PGI but we are fully convinced that PGI status will allow us to build more premium markets, particularly in continental Europe, so we can have greater returns for farmers. It will certainly be a benefit to us in marketing Irish beef in particular channels and markets. In continental Italy, France and Germany it would be a significant benefit to us.

I have two final questions. One relates to calf exports. Does Bord Bia bring all the live calf exporters to trade missions to the different places they are being sold or is there just a handful who go?

I would like the answer to my last question to be as detailed as possible. The witnesses talk about sustainability. They have referred a few times to land use and land-use change. In the west of Ireland, there is a lot of talk at the moment about rewetting, forestry and all of that. Teagasc is doing a lot of research on peaty soils and initial results are totally different to the guidelines the EPA has been working on. What are the witnesses' views on the future for those farmers and peaty soils? Will they be given a fair crack of the whip at rearing their good quality suckler weanlings, their mountain lamb and lowland lamb? Will they be affected by the part of the country they come from? If someone has good quality soil they might be allowed to while away at farming but if they have more difficult soil or peaty soil there might be more restrictions put on them. What are the witnesses' views on that?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I will try to answer the question regarding trade missions and live exports of calves. The live export trade for younger animals is almost exclusively to the Netherlands and we do not have trade missions around that in particular.

I am inclined to think the question around land-use change is more for Teagasc than it is for us. I might ask Mr. Murray if he has any great insights there but from the way he is looking at me he may not.

Mr. John Murray

I will defer to Ms Ryan if that is okay.

Ms Deirdre Ryan

There is certainly a challenge from an emissions perspective with the difference in emissions for peaty soils and mineral soils. It is outlined in the various different strategies. We cannot really say what will happen for farmers from a policy perspective. There is a lot of research being done by Teagasc on how farmers will be affected but that is not something we have the answers to. That will be a policy question with regard to how those programs are rolled out. I cannot really shed any more light on that. There is a just transition working group and a lot of discussions around these topics and areas. Those working groups will be bringing all of these topics to the Government as part of Food Vision 2030 and rewetting will be considered. It is a topic for discussion within that.

From listening to Ms Ryan talk about a just transition fund, she seems to think those farmers will not be able to continue with the type of farming there are at. Am I right to take that from what she has said?

Ms Deirdre Ryan

No. I have no idea about that so I would hate to give that impression. Apologies for that. I have no idea what is going to happen in that regard and would not be able to answer that question. The just transition working group is an action as part of the Food Vision 2030 working group. That group certainly takes a food systems approach that looks at the social elements of sustainability as well as the environmental ones but I would not like to pre-empt what is going to happen around rewetting.

I will be very brief. I welcome the delegation and wish Mr. O'Toole the very best of luck in his new role. I want to come back to the sheep sector. Is there anything that can be done in the short term to promote the sale of sheepmeat? The sector is going through a very difficult time at the moment. The witnesses said they had a marketing campaign for the long term.

Is there anything that could be done in the short term to try to help that industry? It is going through a very difficult time. In relation to the drinks industry and selling whiskey abroad, what is the current position? Is it strong? There are many new people in that industry creating jobs and employment. What marketing is being done for that abroad?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. On the first question about the sheep market, as I mentioned earlier, we just completed promotional activity in the domestic market over the last number of weeks in response to the particular difficulties, of which we are very aware, concerning the sheep sector. We are coming into the period of the Muslim festival of Ramadan, which starts today, and the Easter festivities which will happen in the Christian calendar in the next few weeks. Building through, we anticipate a period of higher demand. We have seen some increases in the prices for lambs over recent weeks, which we hope can be sustained. We hope we are through the worst of the particular issues the sector has faced in the last number of weeks. We keep that under constant review. If demanded, we will seek to increase further the promotional activity or repeat some of the exercises we have done to try to sustain the market.

On the question about the alcoholic drinks sector and whiskey in particular, we have seen a significant increase in alcoholic drink exports in the last year, just knocking on the door of €2 billion worth of exports, of which more than €1.1 billion, if memory serves me right, was Irish whiskey. There are now 44 distilleries on the island of Ireland. There is significant growth in the market. Not only are we increasing the spread of markets and value to markets, we are also premiumising by tapping into higher-value niches for premium Irish whiskeys. In recent years there has been a successful period for the whiskey sector, which we are delighted to support. One activity we are involved in particularly is the Spirit of Ireland promotion. We run it successfully in several markets, particularly in the US, where we have a whole presentation to the buyers in the off-licence sector and in the on-trade. In the United States, as the Deputy is probably aware, there are a number of states which are state-controlled and even though the sale of alcoholic beverages in those states is controlled by the local or state government, they are significant purchasers of Irish alcoholic drinks. We have run several of those activities and have seen significant uplift in sales in states such as Ohio and Montana where we did an activity recently. We bring some of those buyers to Ireland to visit the distilleries and to understand the story of Irish whiskey. We have just finished an important trade show in which we had 19 exhibitions, I think, in Dusseldorf in Germany, called ProWein, which is the trade show for alcoholic beverages in Europe. From speaking to Drinks Industry Ireland, it is hugely valuable for them to be part of that particular trade show due to the importance of exhibiting and the buyers who attend. There is a similar US version of that happening shortly, in which we will be participating. There are several activities, if memory serves me right, in June and in August in other states. There is something planned in Texas for August. We use the summer period to attract some of those buyers to go on visits and to sustain and develop that export activity.

Regarding that industry, sometimes we are afraid to say that it creates lots of jobs and there are lots of people involved in it. Concerning alcohol, we could ban everything we want in the world. Everything is dangerous if it is mis-consumed. Regarding the trade show, there are many people involved in many sectors of the food and drink industry who would like to be able to get on the trade shows. I know Bord Bia tries to bring as many companies as possible. I ask Mr. O'Toole to look at a few of the young companies setting up in this country and give them the opportunity. Sometimes, established companies find it easier to get to these trade shows and they are actually able to go there and show their goods themselves, whereas people setting out find it difficult. In looking for markets, I ask that Bord Bia try its best to support these companies. The trade shows are very important. Bord Bia does a very important job for the country and does it well. People can be critical of State agencies, but as a State agency, Bord Bia continues to do a very good job.

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I thank the Deputy for his kind remarks. On that point he raised, it is important to recognise that there is an important event in June in Dublin called Bloom, which is around horticulture but also around food. Approximately 100 companies, many of which are smaller, use that opportunity to try new products and develop sales and it is a good platform for some of the smaller, younger companies to cut their teeth, to use that phrase, and develop an understanding of consumer demand, which helps them to grow. We fully understand the Deputy's request and will try to accommodate it as best we can.

I was on the board when Bord Bia was first floated and I thought the budget being allocated was madness at the time, I must admit. I must also admit I was wrong. It has been a tremendous success and has gone from strength to strength. It is definitely a great showcase for Irish horticulture and Irish food.

Before we finish, I wish to ask a question. We are still testing for BSE in fallen animals. The outbreak of BSE occurred in 1996, over a generation ago. Is there still a need for continued monitoring of fallen animals?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

It is a good question. It is a long time ago and I remember the worst of it from my early career. We have seen that food safety and traceability are still very important for market access for several markets.

Are customers demanding this testing?

Mr. Jim O'Toole

I think in certain markets it is still a regulatory requirement. We still have to demonstrate our best practice and high animal health status to gain market access, particularly in Asian markets. It is still necessary in my view.

I thank Mr. O'Toole.

Deputy Fitzmaurice made a point on young calves. This is an issue in respect of which we must remain onside. Doing otherwise would not do the country's image as a producer of sustainable food or our green image any good whatsoever. We could develop a veal industry here. I am aware that we have very seasonal production of calves, but the finishing times for veal could be staggered. We would be able to cover much of the year if the proper investment went into this. Live exports are constantly under pressure. We would have a huge surplus of calves here if anything happened with live exports, so I urge the board to do more research into the feasibility of domestic veal production. I thank the officials for their engagement with the committee. Their answers were comprehensive.

The Select Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine will meet in public at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 March, to deal with Committee Stage of the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023. The select committee will engage with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue.

The joint committee adjourned at 8 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 April 2023.
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