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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Jun 2023

Horse Sport Industry Strategy: Engagement with Horse Sport Ireland

Deputy Martin Browne will be substituting for Deputy Johnny Mythen.

Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. Members are requested to ensure that for the duration of the meeting, their mobile phones are turned off completely or switched to airplane, safe or flight mode, depending on their device. It is not enough for members just to put their phones on silent mode because this will maintain a level of interference with the broadcasting system.

Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses will have full defence in any defamation action arising out of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when they are participating within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance with regard to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The purpose of today’s meeting is to undertake an examination of the strategy for the horse sport industry going forward. The committee will hear from representatives from Horse Sport Ireland, HSI: Mr. Denis Duggan, CEO; Mr. Michael Dowling, chairman; Dr. Kevin Smyth, director; Ms Avalon Everett, head of sport, legal and governance; and Dr. Sonja Egan, head of breeding. Their opening statements have been circulated to members and will be taken as read. I will now allow them five minutes to present, after which will we go into questions and answers.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I extend our thanks to Deputy Cahill in his absence and the members of the committee for the invitation to discuss Horse Sport Ireland and our role in the future strategy for the sport horse industry. I will move straight to the powerpoint presentation that is in front of everyone.

We will move on to our role in the next slide. As the committee will be aware, the industry comprises quite a number of activities, including breeding, competition and overall promotion of equestrian sport, and those fall within the remit of Horse Sport Ireland. We recognise the industry’s potential and have worked towards developing a robust strategy, which was developed in 2019 with five pillars. Members can see our mission and vision on screen.

Moving to the next slide, we have five pillars and I will take members through each one. We went through an exercise where we refocused coming out of the pandemic and reprioritised within these five pillars, but we have not changed the five pillars.

In the context of leading the sector, the sport horse sector represents the very essence of our heritage: our harmonious blend of our deep-rooted love of horses and our rich agricultural tradition. From the emerald fields of Kildare to the Golden Vale of Tipperary to the spirited competitions in the Royal Dublin Society, RDS, many members will be aware that the industry resonates with our collective spirit, defining Ireland’s identity as we compete and win on the international stage.

In the context of a rapidly changing world, it is imperative that we adapt our strategies to ensure a prosperous future for our sport horse industry. We stand on the cusp of unprecedented opportunities but also face formidable challenges that demand our undivided attention.

First and foremost, we must recognise that this sport is not merely a source of entertainment or economic value, but is an embodiment of our dedication to equine welfare, principles of sustainable land management and the preservation of rural communities. Our commitment to these principles will guide our decisions and actions as we forge ahead. To that end, under the “leading the sector” pillar, Horse Sport Ireland is prioritising the development of a five-year action plan to roll out genomic breeding programmes and the modernisation of our equine database and processing systems in preparation for e-passporting developments and solutions - and all with the prioritisation of best practice and strong scientific approaches.

We are also determined to lead on social licence. Later this year, Horse Sport Ireland, in partnership with the British Equestrian Federation, will publish a sustainability and environmental roadmap for the equestrian industry in Britain and Ireland. The Irish dimensions of this research have been supported by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It will recognise many of the challenges the industry faces as we begin to educate, inform and adapt towards the challenges of net-zero carbon in 2050.

At international level, the International Federation for Equestrian Sports, FEI, our international governing body, has established the FEI ethics and well-being commission. This commission will report to the FEI on its work to date in late November 2023. In tandem with that international work, later this year Horse Sport Ireland will establish a working group of experts to develop a baseline of data relevant to social licence to operate.

The committee will be well aware of the issues across other industries in the context of the social licence, and the equestrian world is no different. The group aims to report in 2024 and develop an industry report and action plan to protect the social licence of equestrianism in Ireland.

Many of our recommendations in the Reaching New Heights report, with which members may be familiar, are substantially completed. The industry report was developed in 2014 and will expire in 2024–2025. HSI will engage with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, stakeholders and partners on a review of Reaching New Heights and the development of the next long-term framework for the industry.

Our next pillar is developing a sustainable funding model. Members may be aware of our organisation's funding model. Our funding is primarily from Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and we also have some commercial income. Almost €5 million in funding comes annually from the Department, with €1.5 allocated towards overheads and €3 million in grants administered by the organisation on behalf of the Department. Approximately €2 million is available in high-performance-sport funding and core funding from Sport Ireland, with additional funding from year to year for specific purposes, such as the sum of over €2.5 million allocated by Sport Ireland and administered by HSI to its affiliate bodies during the Covid pandemic. More than €550,000 was received by Showjumping Ireland from HIS through that fund. Sport Ireland also provides us with impact funding through competitive call processes that it manages. It is dedicated for high-performance sport only.

The third leg of the funding stool is the passporting function, which is licensed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on a purely commercial basis, generating approximately €1 million in revenue. I am referring to the passport registration processes and functions.

The third pillar is competing on the world stage. Our sporting teams compete on the world stage against national federations that are significantly more resourced. Show jumping and eventing were the first two sports in Ireland that saw people qualify for the Olympics in Paris in 2024. This is the first time in 50 years that our equestrian teams in both disciplines have qualified so early in the Olympic cycle. Our Olympic campaigns across showjumping, eventing, dressage and para-dressage have a budget of approximately €1 million annually, including €800,000 from Sport Ireland, for which we are very grateful, along with contributions from Showjumping Ireland, Eventing Ireland, Paralympics Ireland and Dressage Ireland.

While not directly an issue for the agriculture committee, the sports of jumping and eventing, particularly on the international stage, effectively comprise the shop window for the breeders and producers who benefit from the €3 million in funding we administer on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The challenge for HSI is always to secure significant corporate sponsorship to support our athletes who compete at the highest levels internationally, especially those who compete on Irish-bred horses. Our focus within the pillar of competing on the world stage in Paris in 2024, but with an eye on creating high-level action plans over the next 18 months for the Los Angeles and Brisbane Olympics in 2028 and 2032, respectively.

Members may be aware that, over recent years, a key priority for HSI within the pillar of competing on the world stage has been the provision of a centre of excellence. The organisation had identified Greenogue Equestrian as a possible centre of excellence. Discussions in 2020 and 2021 with Greenogue Equestrian concerned the creation of a long-term lease. The procurement advice received by HSI stated a lease was outside public procurement processes and that any improvement or construction works would have to be tendered. Planning permission was received for an office within Greenogue that would have enabled HSI to relocate staff from where it currently has its head office, Naas, to Greenogue. The cost model for the project involved no capital from State funds but entering a long-term lease was to give certainty to the developer, who would incur the cost of capital expenditure. Unfortunately, with rising construction costs, the funding model became unsustainable. As a result of a cost–benefit analysis and financial reviews and forecasts, the board of the organisation decided in July 2022 not to proceed with the project.

Building organisational capability is the fourth pillar of the organisation's strategy. This is internally focused and is first and foremost about building the security and stability of the organisation, but it is also about ensuring we have a solid position to ensure we have financial sustainability, streamlined operations and optimised resources. We must achieve this to ensure our valued staff have the necessary career-development opportunities, training and development, and culture, both internally and within our wider customer and stakeholder base, so we can attract and retain the talent we need in a competitive employment market to deliver on the services we offer to the industry. Building our organisational capability is a significantly important strategic pillar and includes the modernisation of our IT infrastructure to provide a digital-first approach for efficient, effective and speedy service delivery.

The next pillar is engaging with the equestrian community and diverse stakeholders. As committee members are no doubt aware, the equestrian community is vast and diverse. It reaches into almost every parish in the country. There are tens of thousands of people, from young children to adults, involved weekly in everything from learning to ride in the 163 riding centres approved by the Association of Irish Riding Establishments to competing at amateur and professional levels in sports competitions every weekend around the country. Our priority in HSI is to ensure the community can participate in equestrian sport through our network of 30 affiliated organisations. To that end, HSI administers participation funding, provided by Sport Ireland, to support specific participation projects within those affiliated organisations.

Members may also be aware that in 2022 the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine tendered for operators to provide studbook services for five studbooks, to provide national breeding services and to market the sport horse industry. HSI was the incumbent in all cases and successfully secured the contract to continue to provide studbook services and national breeding services. The Irish Horse Board Co-Operative Society won the tender to provide marketing services for the Irish sport horse sector.

We hope our presentation and opening statement have given members a flavour of the journey of innovation, sustainability and engagement that we are embracing. By leveraging our organisation's expertise, embracing emerging technologies and safeguarding the welfare of horses, in particular, we will continue to build a thriving and resilient industry that brings pride, prosperity, and joy to our nation, especially on the field of play. HSI recognises the critical importance of developing a forward-looking strategy for the sport horse industry. We look forward to taking any questions members may have.

I welcome other speakers. I agree that the sport horse is a huge part of cultural and social identity right across rural Ireland. We are very proud of this, and this committee, in particular, takes it very seriously. While we will deal with the bones of the strategy and the issues the organisation is facing, this is a great chance to address something I have addressed several times with officials of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine when they were before us, namely, the registration of horses. I raised with them the case of a local horse owner, Mr. Finnian McLoughlin. He and his partner are young, progressive breeders, the types of people we should have. Two years ago, they got to the final in the loose jumping in the RDS. It is a three-year old competition. This is something to take very seriously. Mr. McLoughlin contacted the Department in 2020 and advised it that, at that time, 19 horses were registered in his name. When he had gone through the breakdown, he noted one of the horses had never been owned by him, four had been exported, nine had been sold, two had died, and two that had been exported had died abroad.

I never got a satisfactory answer from the Department as to how that can be at a time when we need to have absolute traceability. There seems to be no defence for that. What can Mr. Duggan tell me about that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I am not familiar with the case. We will take it away, investigate it and give the Deputy a response in the next couple of weeks.

I will send it through the secretariat and Mr. Duggan can respond directly on it.

Mr. Duggan alluded to the Indecon report in his opening statement. As he rightly said, it has been a turbulent time for Horse Sport Ireland. The organisation was marred with multiple crises within the industry and on the board itself. I appreciate that a new board has been put in place and we wish all the new members well. The appearance of representatives from Horse Sport Ireland here today has engendered great interest across the equestrian community. We have been besieged with emails and correspondence from all sectors of the equestrian community, highlighting their many grievances with the way the organisation is being run at the moment. Showjumping Ireland, Dressage Ireland and Para Equestrian Ireland issued a joint communiqué, indicating that they are extremely concerned and believe Horse Sport Ireland may not be compliant and that many of the actions taken by HSI and its interactions both internally and externally could be considered to be in breach of the code. They point out that this is effectively self-certification. They consider that as a recipient of State funding, it essential that Horse Sport Ireland be requested to address the many areas where it is currently in breach of this code. It is a fairly hard-hitting statement.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Without seeing the detail of what is in it, I am not sure what they are alluding to in the letter. We have not seen it.

We are probably precluded from going into many of the details in it. They have indicated that the correspondence has been shared with HSI. Would Mr. Duggan agree that there is disquiet across the equestrian community at this time?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I would not agree that there is disquiet across the equestrian community. A few weeks ago, we embarked on a roadshow around the country, engaging directly with breeders on grant schemes that are on offer. The overwhelming feedback on each of those nights has been incredibly positive about the organisation and the schemes we have on offer. That said, there are challenges within the Olympic disciplines. We have not seen that correspondence, so I am happy to take it away-----

We will certainly share that with HSI. The Equestrian Competition Venues Owners Alliance, ECVOA, is a representative group of 18 of the biggest equestrian competition venues in Ireland; probably the bedrock of the industry. Competition needs venues and all of these people have invested heavily. In some cases, they have received LEADER funding and State funding. It is very important that these people feel they are being listened to. They have issued us with a series of questions which we will share with HSI. I do not intend to go through all of them. They put the most salient ones at the start. I will give two of them and Mr. Duggan can respond to these.

Is it true that multiple HR cases are still ongoing in HSI? Can Mr. Duggan give some indication as to the staff turnover in the organisation over the past three years? How many people have departed? What was the average length of service for those staff members?

I point out to the Deputy that that is outside today's agenda. If the witnesses are prepared to answer we have no issues. We have all received that correspondence.

Mr. Denis Duggan

It would not be appropriate for us to comment on any ongoing HR matters. Whether there are any there or not is beyond the scope of the committee. They are operational matters for the organisation. There are HR processes that the organisation, as an employer, must adhere to and follow.

If the secretariat sends the specific queries from ECVOA, is Mr. Duggan prepared to answer those?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We can certainly take it away. We work quite closely with the members of ECVOA. Individually, they apply to the organisation for funding for a number of competitions they run throughout the year. I imagine that most of the 18 members are recipients of significant funding from the organisation for competitions they run.

I will forward all three to the secretariat and if Mr. Duggan can come back, it would be much appreciated.

I also welcome our guests. I hope these issues can be resolved. What we are discussing today is dominated by the equestrian events, including showjumping. Shane and Trevor Breen are from my own town of Cashel. I hope these matters are all fixed before the Olympic Games. We could do with medals back in Cashel after it all.

In his opening statement, Mr. Duggan said that there would be an open call to all equestrians to apply to become directors. He also mentioned that a prospective candidate could come from any one of the 30 affiliated organisations or be a members of an active stakeholder groups. In developing that proposal, did HSI engage with other affiliates or elsewhere? After the issues we have heard about in recent times, co-operation should be at the appropriate level.

Mr. Denis Duggan

This week we actually opened a consultation process. The documents we have shared outline the indicative plan that has been approved by our board of directors. It is not fully set in stone as of yet. We are consulting at the moment with our entire stakeholder base, including all 30 affiliated organisations.

That has only opened up in the last week or so.

Mr. Denis Duggan

That opened up this week. All the affiliates have been made aware of the intended changes. The full documents have been shared with them and are available publicly on our website. There is a window of consultation up until August. Our head of sport, legal and governance, Ms Everett, or our chairman may wish to comment further.

When does HSI hope to have that finalised and directors in place?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It depends on the number of responses we get during the consultation. The closing date for a receipt of comments from the stakeholder base is August. It will be a period of time after that.

Ms Avalon Everett

We have opened a public consultation to the entire industry. We have set out the draft proposal of what we believe is a suitable mechanism to appoint industry directors to the board of Horse Sport Ireland. The closing date is 17 August, allowing sufficient time for each committee, board, working group and breeder group to come together over the summer to provide their comments on the proposals. In August, we will take it away and the board can review those proposals. It is not set in stone at the moment. It is a public consultation on a possible new mechanism.

Has the disagreement over the awarding of the marketing services for the Irish sport horse sector been resolved? What is the relationship like now between HSI and the Irish Horse Board? Did the disagreement over the awarding of the marketing services get in the way of progress being made?

Mr. Denis Duggan

There is no disagreement at the moment. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has awarded the contract to the Irish Horse Board effective from 1 January. We went through a HR exercise where some of our staff had the option of transferring. We have been through all those processes, which took a considerable period. As far as we are concerned, the Irish Horse Board is actively marketing. We have met its representatives on a number of occasions since Christmas, most recently last week. We are trying to arrange diary dates for future meetings with them.

At present, there is no disagreement or anything preventing progress.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Absolutely not.

Mr. Duggan has also spoken about rebuilding public trust and confidence after what happened in recent times.

How has this manifested itself? Given that it has been identified, what efforts have been made to address the issues involved?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Earlier, I mentioned our roadshow with breeders that travels around the country. That is a classic example of how we are getting out and meeting our breeders and engaging with them. That is partly-----

Is HSI engaging with them directly or at shows?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We do both. This year, we are going to fund almost 60 shows throughout the country. With assistance from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, rural shows and competitions are getting funding from the organisation. We expect to finalise and announce that publicly next week. In this specific context, we have a roadshow that we have been taking around the country and meeting breeders. All of our breeders have been invited to attend it. That is part of the journey of rebuilding trust and confidence in the organisation and making sure that the community we serve is familiar with the grants, schemes and supports that the organisation has available.

The issues of doping and animal welfare have been an important talking point at different stages for this committee. What role and responsibilities does HSI have in this regard? HSI has said that it is actively engaging at European level, and with the membership of the European Equestrian Federation, to explore the many challenges, responsibilities and responses that exist. That is to assist equestrian sport to maintain a social licence to operate. What actions have been taken so far, and what actions have been identified that will be needed going forward?

Mr. Denis Duggan

That is a very pertinent question. Regarding our role in welfare, we place animal welfare at the centre of everything we do. It is important to clarify that unlike Horse Racing Ireland or the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, the racing regulatory body, for example, we do not possess any statutory powers or jurisdiction to prosecute individuals or organisations for equine welfare violations within the sport horse industry. As the governing body for equestrian sport, our primary role and responsibility revolves around the promotion of standards, such as the Fédération Equestre Internationale, FEI, code of conduct for welfare of horses. We also run an anti-doping programme that is funded by Sport Ireland, again, in line with the FEI codes on anti-doping. I might refer to our head of sport, Ms. Everett, who may wish to comment further on it as well.

Ms Avalon Everett

I will comment on anti-doping. We run a national anti-doping programme for the affiliate structure. The current affiliates within the doping programme are Showjumping Ireland, Eventing Ireland and Dressage Ireland. We process approximately 120 test samples for year, generally running from the beginning to the end of the season. The testing is carried out by a panel of veterinarians. As an administrative body, we manage any doping violations and the prosecutions relating to same. As the national federation, our rules are harmonised with the FEI anti-doping rules. Our testing is only done in competition. We do not have any jurisdiction for out-of-competition testing. Our programme is funded by Sport Ireland, as Mr. Duggan said. We also receive contributions to the fund from affiliates. Year on year, we generally try to ensure that we have a level of awareness around our doping programme. This is something that we are trying to work on in terms of expanding the number of horses tested. Our level of testing is not comparable with that of the thoroughbred industry. It is something that is integral to our strategic initiatives and to the integrity of the breeding production level of the sport horse industry going forward.

As I said previously, I wish HSI all the best going forward. I am looking forward to having the Olympic medals in Cashel if the equestrian game keeps going the way it is at the minute. I might come back in later.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I might ask Dr. Egan, our head of breeding, to make some comments on traceability which are relevant to Deputy Browne's question as well.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Specifically on the funding that we are in receipt of from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, we are making a lot of strides towards directly impacting and evaluating traceability and indirectly doing that. Most specifically, we have begun a very significant project with this funding on changing over how we analyse horses' DNA. That is specifically replicating what we are currently doing within the bovine and ovine sector. It is called snip DNA analysis. Straight away, we are looking at the gold standard of animal testing. That helps us with traceability, and also through our studbooks for passporting and parentage verification. There is an element of health monitoring within that as well, which is really valuable. We have also begun to bring on board Bio-Thermo chips within our studbook groups. These microchips allow us to identify the horse's temperature non-invasively at the neck. That allows our breeders to monitor the animal's temperature over time. It helps with things like biosecurity, and it also helps from a welfare perspective. If an inspector is required to go out and check an animal, they can already detect the temperature. Of course, in the future we would like to roll this out over all of our microchipping.

Equally, we also have the statutory change of ownership regulations in this country. Within our organisation, is if anyone is in receipt of funds or specific schemes the animal has to be in the correct ownership. Therefore, we can trace the owner, the keeper and the equine premises number, which is a regulatory requirement within this country. We hope that all of these things together will help improve the traceability of animals in our studbooks and within the breeding and production sector in Ireland.

I thank the witnesses for attending, and for the opening statement and the presentation. In the context of HSI's financial position and the level of funding it receives from the Department and Sport Ireland, I ask the witnesses to outline what its total income was last year, and what percentage of that income came from the Exchequer and Sport Ireland, if the figures for 2022 are available.

Mr. Denis Duggan

The figures that I referenced in the document are the approximate figures for 2022.

Roughly, €5 million and €2 million?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Roughly €5 million and €2 million. The is €2 million from Sport Ireland is funding that goes directly to HSI for the high-performance functions and our core funding. As I mentioned, there is additional funding from Sport Ireland, including Covid funding, that we receive but administrate out into the industry. That is separate.

Would most of HSI's income in any one given year come from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, as State funding?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes, that is correct.

Is HSI audited by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Denis Duggan

No. We are audited. Evelyn Partners are our external financial auditor, and we also have an internal audit firm. The internal audit function for the organisation is outsourced to Crowleys DFK. I should also say that the entire Covid relief funding scheme and €2.5 million in Covid funding that we received from Sport Ireland was separately and independently audited on behalf of Sport Ireland by KOSI. It gave it a five-star rating and a clean bill of health. Indeed, our external auditors, Evelyn Partners, have also given us unqualified audits in the past. As head of governance, Ms Everett may want to comment on that.

Ms Avalon Everett

The Covid relief funding was a sizeable. We were probably third highest on the list of organisations that benefited from funding during the Covid period in terms of the three rounds of investments. We extend a significant amount of gratitude to Sport Ireland for that. Of that €2.5 million, approximately €100,000 went to HSI for sports capital equipment. The remainder was actually funnelled into the equestrian community.

Has HSI published its financial statements for 2022 as of yet?

Mr. Denis Duggan

No, not yet. We are in the process of completing the audit at the moment. It will be later in the year before those statements are published.

Mr. Duggan talked about engagement with the sector, which is obviously really important, because it is a vast sector and there are many people from different walks of life involved. Mr. Duggan mentioned the roadshow with breeders that takes place. That is welcome in building back that confidence and trust with them. That is really important.

Is it possible to give us a flavour of what breeders have been saying at these roadshows? Is the relationship positive? What kind of feedback has there been so far? I apologise if this has been said, but how many roadshows are being held, how many have been held to date and where in the country is this engagement taking place?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Four events have been organised. Three have been done, the most recent of which was last night in Charleville, County Cork. We have one in each province. Tomorrow night, which is the last one, is in County Kildare. We have been in County Galway and Craigavon in Northern Ireland. We are a 32-county body. The feedback has been hugely positive and appreciative. In a lot of cases, we are dealing with breeders who are small in the context of the overall industry. Most of them had not been aware of some of the schemes. We have also been working in consultation with the Agricultural Consultants Association, ACA. We have had somebody from the ACA accompanying each of these sessions, except for the one in Craigavon naturally, to inform breeders about their eligibility for the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, and so on. I will ask Dr. Egan to come in at this point as she has attended all of the events. The feedback has been complimentary of the organisation. There is a general desire among stakeholders for information.

Dr. Sonja Egan

Among the specifics we cover is the equine inclusion in TAMS and the ACA, which Mr. Duggan has referenced. I give a presentation on the breeding schemes funded through the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, in terms of overarching eligibilities, where people can find additional information and whether they want to speak to us afterwards to apply for and draw down this funding. We also have speakers from the Irish Equine Centre to talk specifically about animal health, and environmental and hygiene testing. That has been well received. There is a new scheme in the organisation. Finally, we have our own HSI geneticist who explains our DNA transition from microsatellites to single nucleotide polymorphism, SNPs. That refers to how we analyse horses' DNA parentage verification to explain what that transition process looks like. A lot of the feedback has been about the transition from microsatellites to SNP technology or that genotyping, how it will work and how it will impact them. We have been able to answer those questions then and there and develop as we have been on the roadshows.

How efficient is the passport service, in which the HSI has a role? I presume a high number of passports are being issued all of the time. Do the witnesses have up-to-date figures on numbers issued? Will they also give the committee some information on how those passports are produced? I would like more detail on that function.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Last year, we processed approximately 20,000 documents. Approximately 12,000 were new registrations. These were either foals or cases where somebody brought a horse between two and four years old, which had not been registered as a foal. There were also cases involving changes of ownership and making duplicates in cases where a passport had been lost. All told, 20,000 documents were processed through the year.

We had a significant issue coming out of Covid. We communicated with the industry and breeders. DNA testing can take a considerable number of weeks from beginning to end. As an animal testing laboratory, all of the DNA testing was done in a tier 2 laboratory. Unfortunately, because of Covid, during those years PCR testing and so on was prioritised. That put an extra strain on the overall system. We are out of that thankfully. The average turnaround time for most passports, because of DNA testing, is now between four and six weeks.

A DNA sample is normally between 40 and 50 hair follicles, which are sent to our DNA testing partner. If there are not enough, or if the hair roots are missing, a second test is done as part of the partner's quality control. That means between one week and ten days for each one of those first tests, and for a repeat test in a failure. After the second test, the breeder may be informed that a new hair sample is required. All of those things can cause inherent delays, but they are all part of proper quality control undertaken by the laboratory.

Our internal handling time on a passport from beginning to end is probably in the order of about one hour, in terms of the entire processing time. It should be borne in mind that hour is spread over between four and six weeks while the DNA testing is done. We do some checks when the application is made to issue a foal kit. The foal kit is the DNA testing and the microchip because every foal has to be microchipped. When the DNA results come back, there is the printing and building of the physical passport.

Dr. Sonja Egan

One of the new additional services we have tried to roll out this year to help bring down that time is to offer a lot of our services online. Owners can now register their foal online. Mr. Duggan referenced some of the procedures and steps. Specifically, a breeder or a stallion owner can lodge a cover certificate or mare declaration with us, which will initiate straight away the sending out of that foal kit to the breeder. From there, the vet will go out and chip the foal and take markings specifically on the silhouette of a horse. They will take a hair sample from the foal and send it back to us. That will initiate actual DNA testing in a laboratory. That DNA will decide where they will enter. We have five stud books, and we also issue identification documents. The outcome of the DNA analysis will decide within which stud book this animal may eligible to enter.

It is from there that we begin the production of the actual stud book. We hope the transition to genotyping will help improve the processing time for DNA. We have been told specifically by the laboratories, and our partner, that with the current technology we are leaving they can process between 1,500 and 2,000 samples per week down that chain. Between the genotyping and SNPs testing, they are looking at between 15,000 and 20,000 samples per week. The transition will take time and we are in that process at the moment. That is why we are engaging with breeders and we are grateful to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for supporting us in this injunction. Equally, we hope that once we transition fully to SNP technology, our DNA processing times will increase, not in terms of analysis necessarily but that the volumes sent out will be much higher.

I thank Dr. Egan.

Mr. Denis Duggan

The Deputy mentioned processing times. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has opened a scheme in the past weeks for passport issuing authorities, of which we are one. That scheme is about migration to e-passporting. We are actively involved with a number of other passport issuing organisations with a view to building a suitable e-passport solution. This will again speed up delivery of passports to breeders. That is in line with the organisation's strategic aim of building our own capabilities internally, but also to do so in a way that ensures we offer an efficient and speedy service to our customer base.

The opening statement mentioned the multiple crises in the industry and the board, and what went on in November 2022. The witnesses may or may not wish to comment. There was a lot of talk about the board and possible changes to the make-up of the board. That is good, and the proposal is welcome, but I want to turn to the other elements. I am reminded that one departing board member mentioned conflicts involving staff, funders and affiliate bodies. What is being done in that regard? Building back trust and confidence with the roadshow and through engagement at that level is good and fine, as are the possible changes to the make-up of the board. I am interested in the affiliates, the funders and the staff, separate from anything else going on. It has also been mentioned that recruiting and attracting staff are important to sustain the industry. What is being done in terms of those elements to ensure the HSI can attract staff? I am not sure what the issues are regarding conflicts involving funders and affiliate bodies. What work is being done on those other elements aside from the possible board changes?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I will let the Chairman, Mr. Dowling, take the first part of the question.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Obviously, I cannot comment on what happened before we were appointed to the board since we were not there. I can say, however, that we are - at least, I am - in the process of meeting with every affiliate organisation. There are 30-odd of them, so it is a process which will take some time. I am working my way through it. The object is to listen to them and to address any concerns they have. That process will take most of the year. I am five or six down at this stage, but there are another 20-odd to go. That is one part of it.

There are not, as far as I am aware, issues regarding staff now. I cannot say what the position was in the past because, obviously, we were not there, but my understanding is that the organisation and its staff are working well. It is busy but they are working well. I do not see any evidence of any conflicts in regard to the current team working for us. As a board, we have considerable confidence in the team that is there now.

I am going to leave for a vote.

I welcome the team from HSI. I will focus on HSI's strategy priorities for 2023 to 2024, which the witnesses have circulated to us and which were very helpful. While they only teed up some headings, I want to break out some of them with them. I have only four of them and I will take them one at a time.

On the development of HSI's sustainable funding model, the witnesses talk about the diversification of State fundraising and exploring the potential for PEACE funding. That is a natural opportunity, given that HSI is a 32-county body, which many people do not know. That is significant. Equestrian sport is usually popular on every part of the island. The witnesses might talk about that, the funding from HSI's Northern Ireland activities and the shared island funding.

I refer to Skillnet Ireland, the synergy with Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, the funding around that and, finally, under this category, the exploration of other EU funding. HSI is looking at that. I would be keen to hear how all that is going, the sources of funding and the type and directions of that funding that HSI might be tapping into in terms of that EU funding. Could the witnesses deal with those issues under the diversification of State fundraising?

Mr. Denis Duggan

As the pillar says, it is really about trying to diversify. That is not to take from the very valued State funding we have from Sport Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, but it is a matter of trying to find additional sources of funding. The Senator touched on Skillnet Ireland, for example. Last year, Skillnet had an open call for new networks. We made an application and, unfortunately, were unsuccessful coming out of that process. We have continued to engage with Skillnet Ireland, and it intends to open a call next year for other new networks. There was an equestrian Skillnet about ten years ago. It ceased to exist. The Skillnet model is very relevant in our industry, given that it is an industry worth €1 billion and supporting 15,000 jobs. That is definitely a significant priority, which we will be pursuing with Skillnet Ireland again next year.

A new round of PEACE funding opened recently, and that is something we are exploring. It must be borne in mind that the items called out within the strategic plan are over the next two years, until the expiry of this current plan. Because we are in Kildare, it is natural for us to look at engaging with Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board. It is really about an exploration to see what funding, programmes and courses could be offered to the broader equine industry. From the listening exercise we spoke about with Deputy Kerrane, our stakeholders report to us very regularly about skills gaps, particularly in the areas of horsemanship grooms. Finding grooms is a significant challenge for the industry. It has been an engagement with both Skillnet and the education and training board to see if we can-----

Has HSI quantified the shortage?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We have not but we are undertaking a piece of research later this year to endeavour to do that. Last year we worked with IFAC accountants on research we published called The Business of Breeding, which quantified the investment ask of the equine industry, particularly in the context of TAMS. We will engage on a similar piece of research, particularly on employment and skills, this year with a similar firm.

I will bring in Ms Everett, who has been actively working on a number of other funding applications in this space.

Ms Avalon Everett

I will speak to the shared island application. HSI, in conjunction with the Irish Pony Club, based in the Republic, and Area 17, which is the Pony Club UK section in the North, and combined with the Northern Ireland breeders' organisation, submitted an application to the Department of the Taoiseach, but yesterday we were notified that due to the high number of applications, our application was not successful. It was a cross-Border training-type initiative for youths with a sport horse breeding element mixed in. We will go for the second round of funding if it is open. It was a strong application and brought together a few entities that had never collaborated in the past. That was a real positive, particularly for Area 17, which is not affiliated to or connected to us in any shape or form. We have kind of built a bridge there in terms of its connection with the Irish Pony Club in the South and us. That is a positive. Regrettably, however, we did not get the funding we looked for.

Sport Northern Ireland has supported our high-performance athletes who are born in Northern Ireland through direct subsidies or athlete bursaries. We have a number of them directly funded through us, eight at the moment who are on Paris podium pathways. We just administer the funding directly to them.

Moving on to the innovation hub, HSI has a collaboration with Enterprise Ireland and AgTechUCD. I ask the witnesses to tell us a little about that.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Going back to 2019, when the original five-year strategy was crafted by the organisation, a key objective within it was for the organisation to create an innovation hub within the equine space, whereas we have taken a view now that it is more appropriate to collaborate with others. That is the objective for the next 18 months. That is called out as an objective. We have had some high-level discussions with Enterprise Ireland staff about it but it has not progressed any further than that. We look particularly to the project Enterprise Ireland funds with UCD in Lyons Estate around the agtech accelerator. The view of both the executive management team and the board of the directors is that it is better to collaborate rather than our trying to do something like that on our own.

That makes sense. How is HSI's engagement with Nuffield and the Teagasc Walsh scholarship system going?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Again, these are objectives for the next 18 months. It is trying to broaden the research base within the equine space. If we look to issues like the environment, climate change and so on, there are very little baseline data. We have started to engage with Teagasc on that, but it will most likely be next year before we see any potential Walsh fellowship. Similarly, Nuffield has opened its call for scholars for this year, so it would be next year before we are financially able to-----

It is positive that HSI has identified the idea of collaboration. It makes sense in terms of the size, the exposure and the synergies. We would be interested in hearing about that as it progresses. I know this is more of a long-term plan. It is a welcome and a positive one, and I am glad to hear about it.

I wish to touch on building on organisational capabilities.

I know this is Horse Sport Ireland's plan and vision, but every organisation, including the Oireachtas, is building on its organisational capabilities.

To pick out one area, Mr. Duggan has identified the need for support for cultural transformation. That goes to the heart of every organisation. We always need to strive and improve. What does Mr. Duggan mean by that and what progress has Horse Sport Ireland made to date in that area? Can he quantify that cultural transformation? That is what has been set down and identified as a challenge as part of Horse Sport Ireland's strategy. Could Mr. Duggan tease out for us how that is progressing?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I thank the Senator for that question. We would look at it in two ways. There is the internal culture in the organisation. In the context of Olympic teams for example, we talk about the need for high-performance sport and teams. We need to walk the walk in the organisation, and we need to make sure that our internal team is a high-performance one, no different from the team we will send to Paris in two years' time. That is part of the focus.

Regarding what we have done, in the summer of last year we recruited a HR manager in the organisation. It is the first time that we have dedicated such a resource internally to support both staff and managers on that journey of change. We have also broken down some of the internal silos. This is not new news in a lot of organisations, where things are done in silos. We have tried to break those down so there is a greater internal flow of information and communication.

Externally, there are also cultural issues. It is how we interact with our customer base and stakeholders, but equally, what we have seen is how people within the sport interact with each other. This is no different from any other sporting organisation, where behavioural issues are tolerated on the basis of the view, "Well, I am passionate about my sport, so I can say anything I like to you". That is a cultural change that we need across the entire sporting landscape, not just equestrianism.

That, again, is another positive. Mr. Duggan has just confirmed to the committee that Horse Sport Ireland has a designated, permanent, full-time HR manager. That is positive, and I am glad to hear it.

Horse Sport Ireland is part of the equine stakeholder group and meets with that group. What is the benefit of that? Clearly, all the different stakeholders are participating. I have seen one or two of the minutes, which were circulated. Could Mr. Duggan tell us the benefits of that group? Should it meet more often? How does he find it, in terms of meaningful engagement right across the different elements of this sector? It strikes me as something that is positive, but does Mr. Duggan think it is effective?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Just to clarify, is the Senator referring to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's equine liaison group?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I think it is hugely beneficial. I have attended it, as has our head of breeding, Dr. Egan. To be honest, at a very basic level, the challenges that all of equine faces - whether one is involved in thoroughbreds, sport horses or Kerry bog ponies - are very similar, although we might be dealing with different types of horses. That is one of the benefits and advantages of the equine liaison group that the Department has set up. It allows us to share information, see what other colleagues are doing in other organisations and learn from each other. We can all learn something. That has been a real advantage.

Mr. Duggan is telling us it is effective.

Mr. Denis Duggan

My view is that it is very effective.

Does it meet regularly enough?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It probably meets around three or four times a year. Personally, I think it does meet enough. We have a meeting coming up in a couple of weeks' time. The group creates a platform where, from our point of view in HSI, we can engage with somebody from the thoroughbred world and continue that engagement offline on various issues. That has been very effective for some of the challenges that we have faced collectively, particularly around the movement of horses, for example.

Is the movement of horses still a challenge? In the context of Brexit and the fallout from that, how is all of that panning out? There were major challenges there. Would Mr. Duggan like to comment on that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is a challenge, and those involved in the sport report to us that it is still a challenge and a cost. It is a challenge that the industry has become accustomed and used to but there is a cost on the movement and the paperwork.

I am not going to ask Mr. Duggan now, because I am conscious of time, but I think it would be very interesting, and the committee would benefit from it, if we had a little memo or note from him about those challenges. He has first-hand knowledge and is at the coalface of all of this. While one reads in The Irish Field and various publications about those challenges, it would be nice if it could be quantified in some kind of a memo. If Mr. Duggan had the time to do so, it would be beneficial to provide one to the committee.

I thank Mr. Duggan and all the team. It is always great to see them in here and to engage with them. All organisations go through periods of troughs and highs. I think the trajectory for Horse Sport Ireland is really good, and I genuinely wish it well.

I thank the speakers. A lot of the questions have been asked.

To refer back to the opening statement, reference was made to the social licence to operate the highest standards of welfare. Could the witnesses give us an update on the hearing being carried out by the former Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Clarke, into the allegations of rapping that have been made against the Olympic team? When is Mr. Justice Clarke expected to make his findings public? Will it be ahead of November 2023 when, as was mentioned in the opening statement, Horse Sport Ireland will make a report or provide baseline data to Fédération Equestre Internationale, FEI? Will the witnesses give us an update on how that hearing is progressing?

Mr. Michael Dowling

Obviously, we cannot comment on the specifics of what is a quasi-judicial process.

Yes, just the timelines.

Mr. Michael Dowling

The hearings are finished. Our understanding is that Mr. Justice Clarke is reviewing and is ready to prepare his judgment. How long that will take, we do not know.

Mr. Dowling is not sure whether he will have it in advance of that November 2023 date?

Mr. Denis Duggan

The November 2023 date refers to a different process, namely, the FEI's equine ethics and well-being commission, which is due to report in November 2023. This is entirely separate. We are going to put together an expert group on the social licence operating in an Irish context, coming out of the international report that the FEI is going to prepare.

I should point out as well that the matters that are under consideration by Mr. Justice Clarke involve an employment matter. The Senator has mentioned his report being published. It will most likely not be published because it refers to an employment matter.

Will the findings in respect of whether Mr. Justice Clarke agrees that the video evidence constitutes rapping be made available? We have one international equine expert who has viewed the videos and, I believe, gave a report to Horse Sport Ireland, which said that the video footage showed the use of a metal bar that was likely to cause excessive pain and unnecessary discomfort to horses. My understanding is that Mr. Justice Clarke is to make a decision that will make it easier for everybody in the future to determine whether that practice constitutes rapping. Will that information, at least, be made public?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I expect that information will be; absolutely.

As part of the hearings, will Mr. Justice Clarke have interviewed riders as part of that or will that happen after the findings? In establishing whether they felt they had to carry out this practice, whether they objected to it at the time or whether they thought it was perfectly appropriate, will riders have been interviewed as part of that process?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Again, it is a process that Mr. Justice Clarke has undertaken. It would be inappropriate for me to get into the detail of that process.

I am not asking about the detail. Will riders be questioned as part of the process?

Mr. Denis Duggan

What I can say to the Senator is that in the context of the hearing, Mr. Justice Clarke heard from a number of witnesses.

Okay. I know others have picked up on this but regarding the sustainable funding model - again, I do not want to get into the specifics of HR issues - what percentage of the budget has been spent on legal costs to date?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I do not have the percentage but I can share the figure with the clerk afterwards. I do not have it off the top of my head.

In the public domain, there are estimates of €2 million in legal costs.

Mr. Denis Duggan

That estimate is a historical figure where a number of years were put together.

A number of issues were rolled up together and an attempt to portray it in the most negative light possible was made. That is not an annual figure by any stretch of the imagination.

Would we be able to get a breakdown of the annual figures, say, for the past five years?

Mr. Denis Duggan

We can certainly provide that to the committee.

Okay, great. My final question is to pick up on-----

Mr. Denis Duggan

Sorry, I should also point out that those kind of figures are within our annual report. That is publicly available on our website and filed with the Companies Registration Office, CRO. Legal costs and legal and professional fees are listed every year within our published annual accounts.

Perfect. I thank Mr. Duggan.

In the opening statement, Mr. Duggan refers to the importance of attracting and retaining skilled staff. Deputy Kerrane asked about the number of staff that have left and Mr. Dowling stated that they did not have a figure. Has Horse Sport Ireland an attrition rate, that is, what percentage of turnover happens? Most organisations will know that 2% or 5% of staff leave for one reason or other. Is there a percentage figure for the attrition rate?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Off the top of my head, I cannot give the Senator a percentage figure. Historically, the organisation, for budgetary reasons more than anything else, has probably recruited quite a lot of graduates in their first job and, as a result, there is an inherent built-in high attrition because people at graduate level have not stayed in those roles. We have seen considerable turnover in those kind of first-career graduate-type roles.

On the attrition rate, Horse Sport Ireland stated that it has not identified the number of people it needs to fill the skills gaps or vacancies. Am I correct in saying that Mr. Duggan does not have a figure for the number? Mr. Duggan stated that he had met with the Department around the investment ask, but has Horse Sport Ireland a figure of how many people it intends to employ into the future, what will be needed or what are the skill gaps that Horse Sport Ireland has?

Mr. Denis Duggan

One significant skill gap - we are engaging with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on that - specifically relates to the project that Dr. Egan referred to earlier, which is the DNA testing and the genomics programme. That is, by comparison with what the committee would have seen in the likes of Irish Cattle Breeding Federation, ICBF, a data-driven process. It requires geneticists and data scientists. It is a high-skilled workforce. We are going through an exercise internally to quantify both the financial quantum of the ask and, equally, the number of people that are required over a number of years to support the equine industry through Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, in delivering that type of initiative.

Our total head count in terms of the overall number of people hovers between 42 and 45, or maybe 46, people. As the Senator can appreciate, related back to graduate employment, there is always a buoyancy in that number. That is probably the ideal complement in terms of the services both in breeding services and passport functioning and the high performance sport that we are trying to deliver.

Finally, it is great to hear Horse Sport Ireland has employed a HR manager now. Are exit interviews carried out when people leave?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Yes.

They are. Graduates will do what they do. They get their experience and will go off to greener pastures. Has HSI identified what would be needed to keep some of them from leaving? Is it pay? Is it conditions?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It is pay. We do exit interviews with all staff as they leave. That category of exiting staff member is, as I said, generally coming out of college and we are their first employer. On one level we are very sorry to see those calibre of candidates leave the organisation but at the same time we do not have the financial resources to be able to offer the salaries for which most of them are moving to private sector companies, all within the equine space. Unfortunately, all we can do is wish them well.

I thank Mr. Duggan and thank the Chair.

Apologies, I had to go out for a vote. I have two more questions, if the Chair and the speakers can indulge me.

Mr. Duggan told the previous speaker about the accounts that are published in the annual report. I suppose in many cases accounts are a bit like a PR exercise; they tell some of the story but they do not tell the full story. While I do not expect that HSI will publish them, would it be appropriate or is it possible for Mr. Duggan to provide the committee with HSI's accounts by department for the period 2020, 2021 and 2022? We are probably entering into a period of absolute transparency for the industry and it would be important that the committee would have sight of that level of detail.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Our accounts are published and they are publicly available.

I know. They would be the typical profit and loss account, P&L, and balancing statement but I would be looking for the internal departmental accounts.

Mr. Denis Duggan

Our accounts are subject to Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform Circular 13/2014, which lists the expenditure that we receive from the State per Department. For example, the funding we receive from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is itemised within that, as is, equally, the funding we receive from Sport Ireland. That is all publicly available within our accounts.

Specifically, each heading within Mr. Duggan's organisation will have its own internal P&L. Can Mr. Duggan share those with the committee?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I do not think we can, to be honest.

In terms of what HSI returns to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, what would that show by department? That would only show where the funding that they gave HSI went? Would it show HSI's day-to-day spending under each department heading?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It would in relation to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We would report our expenditure to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for the funding that it provides to us. The funding we receive from any-----

Say, those returns that HSI makes to the Department, can Mr. Duggan share those with us?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I would not think so.

Horse Sport Ireland is on its road show at present. It is commendable. I referenced some of the queries from the Equestrian Competition Venues Owners Alliance, ECVOA, earlier. Obviously, it is important that HSI engages with all the major stakeholders, and particularly one as big as that. It is engaging with the public in competitions. It is a critical area, in particular, for bringing young horses forward. That organisation would rightly suggest that it accounts for where 80% of all equestrian activities are taking place. They would argue that HSI is not engaging with them. How would Mr. Duggan respond to that?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I approached the secretary of ECVOA last year to meet. Unfortunately, it has not been responded to. As I said, that is within the collective, but we meet with individual members of ECVOA on an ongoing basis because they are, as the Deputy pointed out, one of the biggest recipients of our grant schemes, particularly in prize money for shows that they run. At this stage, both Dr. Egan and I have probably met almost all of them individually.

For our benefit and for the benefit of ECVOA here today, if there was a request from ECVOA for a meeting, is HSI happy and willing to meet it?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Absolutely, 100%. We do not refuse to meet any of our stakeholders. I cannot remember, to be honest, the reasons why, but I know that sometime after my appointment as CEO last year I reached out to ECVOA to meet them. I cannot remember the detail but I know that the meeting did not happen.

That is all right.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I am not saying it was their fault.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I am not saying it was our fault.

I know, and I know Mr. Duggan is relatively new in the role. I refer to some of Mr. Duggan's colleagues. When was the last time that they formally met with ECVOA?

Mr. Denis Duggan

As I said, I reached out to them last year.

But when did HSI meet with them last?

Mr. Denis Duggan

It would probably have been prior to my arrival last year.

Is any of Mr. Duggan's colleagues able to tell me when was the last time HSI met them?

Ms Avalon Everett

My understanding is that during Covid there were a number of Zoom meetings with the previous CEO, Mr. Ronan Murphy, in relation to the Covid regulations.

They have had no formal meeting. We went into Covid in 2020 and HSI has had no formal meeting with that body - probably the largest representative commercial body within the horse industry - in the past three years.

Ms Avalon Everett

That is correct, but it is important to distinguish between them being the largest commercial representative body and an affiliate body we have called the Association of Irish Riding Establishments. The Association of Irish Riding Establishments is a membership body affiliated to Horse Sport Ireland that covers 164 centres.

I would be familiar with many of them.

Ms Avalon Everett

There is a bit of a distinction there.

There is an overlap, but the industry depends on competition and we need competition venues.

It would be concerning that it is in excess of three years since HSI has met that body.

Mr. Denis Duggan

I should point out that we have not received a request. I reached out to it last year after my appointment but that meeting did not happen for whatever reason and we have not had a subsequent meeting. It is not one of our 30 affiliate bodies. It is a loose association as far as I am aware. I am not sure about its overall governance structure but it has either not requested a meeting from us, which if it did, we would-----

I suppose the message from today is the need to request a meeting. HSI is more than willing to meet them. It is an important part of the engagement process and the future of the industry.

When I was Minister with responsibility for sport, one of the big issues involved passports and breeding. I was contacted by deputations from all over the country and even though I did not have responsibility for HSI, I had joint responsibility for appointing the chairman. Who picks the board of HSI?

Mr. Denis Duggan

The Minister appointed four directors to the organisation in November 2022. Our chairman, Michael Dowling, and Dr. Kevin Smyth are two of those directors along with Professor Niamh Brennan and Zoe Kavanagh. We are going through a process that we have documented in opening statement where we are consulting with the industry as to how the remaining directors who are derived from the industry will be appointed to the board.

But who will actually appoint them?

Mr. Denis Duggan

The remaining members of the board will appoint them.

That is not very satisfactory. I think there should be an open competition for that because you will be picking the pets you want - not the people who might have most to speak out on. I must talk to the Minister about that. I think the Minister should be the person picking the board.

The other issue I would like to ask the witnesses about came up on several occasions today. It concerns HR issues. What legal fees has HSI paid out relating to HR issues? Does HSI have any cases at the WRC? There seems to be an issue with HR. Could the witnesses explain why?

Could somebody address the breeding end of it? There were a lot of disputes. As I said, I used to get deputations from all over the country about passports. I am not into breeding horses so I do not know how to put the wording to it but I do know the difficulty. Has this difficulty been dealt with? Is the organisation a happier one that it was when I was Minister?

Mr. Michael Dowling

Before Mr. Duggan answers the last few questions the Deputy has, to go back to the Deputy made about the appointment of directors, as has been pointed out, we have circulated a consultation document to the industry through the affiliates setting out an open competition whereby people who can be shown to be members of or endorsed by affiliates to can apply to become directors. That is a consultation document. We have given people until the middle of August to give their views on that. We will not be picking the four directors. There will be an independent panel that will review the applications and suggest the four people who should take up the directorships to us taking account their background in the industry and their skills. The document sets out a skillset they must meet and takes account of gender balance. We will pick the panel but it is an independent panel.

Then that is not independent.

Mr. Michael Dowling

Yes, it is independent.

Why can HSI not go through the Public Appointments Service like everybody else?

Mr. Michael Dowling

We are not a public body in that sense.

HSI could still use that organisation to-----

Mr. Michael Dowling

We could. That is one of the options we have.

With regard to breeding-----

Mr. Denis Duggan

In terms of passports?

Yes, and the rows that were happening and who was adjudicating the stock. I remember how at the time, a lot of organisations and people involved in the industry said they felt that their animals were probably of a higher standard than they were judged to be on their passports. There used to be a lot of difficulty and there was a lot of anger, particularly in Cork and other parts of Munster. Has all this been resolved?

Mr. Denis Duggan

I might have a conversation with the Deputy afterwards about the detail of that because I am not entirely sure of what the Deputy is referring to but in the context of-----

What is the difference between a white passport and a green one? What percentage of white passports have been issued because whether a passport is white or green makes a big difference to the value of the animal? I think Mr. Duggan told Deputy Kerrane earlier 20,000 passports were issued last year. What percentage of them were white and why? I apologise for intruding but I think that might be alone the lines of Deputy Ring's question

Mr. Denis Duggan

I thank An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach for the clarification. In the context of the 20,000 documents I mentioned in response to Deputy Kerrane, about 8,000 involve changes of ownership and so on, so we are talking about 12,000 foal passports or what we call adult registration where a breeder does not register the foal but comes along to register an adult horse. We can provide the committee with the exact figure afterwards but from memory, I think in the order of about 600 of the 12,000 were ID documents or white books. I will bring the director of breeding in on this. She will explain in greater detail the difference between the green book and the white book.

Dr. Sonja Egan

The green book is what we term a stud book passport. That is where the animal is entered into a specific stud book - typically with its breeding recorded. There is some method of entry for animals with a white book or identification document and that is typically through judgment, so that is an inspection or selection process. Typically, what happens with a white book animal is that it does not have its parentage or breeding recorded hence it is not eligible to enter into a stud book. That is specifically governed with the stud book rules, which would be approved by the Department within a cross-breeding programme. Animals of a specific breed would be eligible to enter through a cross-breeding programme. Not all equine breeds are listed within the green book specific breeding programmes hence some animals may have breeding recorded but due to their specific parentage or breed listed, are not eligible to enter a green book stud book.

What about legal fees and the WRC?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Again, there were a number of questions around HR matters and it would not be appropriate for me to discuss-----

I do not want to know the specific cases. Has HSI many cases?

Mr. Denis Duggan

In the context of a potential WRC case, it would be inappropriate for me to answer that question.

I am not asking about any specific case. I am asking whether HSI has any cases - "Yes" or "No"? I do not think it is inappropriate to answer that. I do not want to know about the particular cases. I do not want to know anything about the cases but does HSI have any cases before the WRC?

Mr. Denis Duggan

To my knowledge, there is a case before the WRC but it is in very early stages.

I do not want to know anything about the case. My other question concerned legal fees. How much has HSI spent on legal fees in the past few years with regard to HR?

Mr. Denis Duggan

Senator Boylan asked a similar question earlier. There were media reports of €2 million being over a number of years on a variety of HR matters.

That is grand.

I have a few questions. Can you get from a white to a green passport through DNA? I have spoken to a lot of people who were disappointed to get white passports when they reckoned they had proof of the dam and the sire. In their opinion, it should be green but it is white. Can you progress from white to green through DNA or is there a process or procedure? Is there a dispute resolution process if the owner thinks one thing and HSI is issuing something else?

Dr. Sonja Egan

On the cross-breeding programme, there are very specific rules. There is a European regulation on entry into a stud book. Both parents must be main-section stud-book parents in order to gain entry into the main section of a stud book. In cases where, as I said, there is a breed that someone believes is recorded on a passport, there is parentage recorded for both sire and dam. If the breeds of those animals are not in the stud book specific cross-breeding programme, they are not allowed to enter the stud book. Of course, in cases where animals might have one side of their parentage recorded and have a white book, which is also called the ID document, we try to support those breeders to get the parentage if it will meet the entry requirements. However, that is not always possible through this pathway. To enter the stud book depends on the eligibilities of the breed code. Breeders also have the option to bring the alibi to selection to see if the animal will meet the inspection requirements in order to gain entry. Again, that depends specifically on the stud book. There are performance horse stud books in Ireland and we also have some rare breed stud books. HSI does not govern all those stud books. There are specific rules around the entry of those and some are closed. A Connemara pony, for example, can only be registered in that stud book. There is not a cross-breeding programme in the green book or the Irish sport horse stud book. They would have a cross-breeding programme so that is a little different.

I am thinking of the overall breeding perspective and improving and maintaining the standard of Irish horses. I am more familiar with the thoroughbred side of things where the mare physically visits the stallion. I believe in the horse sport industry, one can import straws from foreign stallions. From a strategic perspective and in the interests of promoting Irish-bred horses, is that a good policy? Does the Department have a strategy to promote Irish stallions?

Dr. Sonja Egan

The promotion of Irish horses comes back to some of the breeding initiatives and schemes we run through the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which champions the breeding of Irish horses and Irish-registered horses, and equally it involves the breeders themselves recognising those good breeding decisions. Improving the breeding programme comes back to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine's single nucleotide polymorphism, SNP, transition fund or how we are changing our DNA analysis. This is looking to replicate what the Irish Cattle Breeding Federation has done with cattle. It has developed genomic breeding values which provide an evidence basis for cattle breeders to make the decisions to produce cattle, whether in increasing the macronutrient or protein outputs in milk yield, fertility, etc. We want to be in a position where we can provide Irish breeders with those types of data in order to improve breeding decision-making and produce better Irish-bred horses.

Dr. Egan mentioned rare breeds. Is there any part of the strategy for Irish thoroughbreds? Drafts are becoming increasingly rare. Is there a strategy to try to maintain traditional Irish breeds? She talked about the Kerry bog pony and the Connemara pony. The Irish draft is one I have an interest in. I think the day is coming when we will not have Irish drafts. I imagine that will be part of the Department’s strategy into the future.

Dr. Sonja Egan

I am delighted to report on recent meetings I have had with Irish draft breeders specifically. Recently, we have seen the highest number of Irish draft foals we have ever seen. It was after the crash that the numbers decreased. Last year, we had 1,000 Irish draft foals. That is a great increase. We have done other research, which we hope to publish soon, that looks specifically at the uniqueness of the Irish draft as a traditional Irish breed and how it is defined among other sport-horse breeds. Typically we term all non-thoroughbred animals sport horses. That is very positive. Our own schemes have mechanisms to support retention and conservation of particular rare blood lines. Breeders are given money towards maintaining these animals for specific breeding entities, for example as part of a colt retention scheme for specific rare bloodlines in the likes of Kerry bog ponies, Irish drafts or Connemara ponies. That is some of the work we are doing. Equally, our geneticists would help to support us in identifying those rare bloodlines and in maintaining and identifying them to ensure we can keep those rare bloodlines alive.

To be fair to the industry, it never was going as well as in the last few years. There were a lot of difficulties but we must be fair as well. Our competitors are doing very well abroad and at home. There were many problems. It is not many years ago that we were not qualifying for anything or doing anything. There is no doubt that the standard has risen so we must compliment the Department for that. It is not all bad news.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions this evening. The committee will next meet at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 June for an examination of the consolidation in horticultural numbers.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.06 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 June 2023.
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