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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 2023

Consolidation in Horticultural Grower Numbers: Discussion

Deputy Martin Browne will substitute for Deputy Mythen. I remind committee members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. I wish to bring it to the witnesses' attention that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses will have full defence in any defamation action arising from anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when they are participating within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance with regard to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The purpose of today's meeting is to undertake an examination of the consolidation of horticulture grower numbers. The committee will hear from representatives of the Irish Farmers Association: Mr. Brian Rushe, deputy president; Mr. Niall McCormack, fruit and vegetable chair; Mr. Sean Ryan, potato chair; and Ms Niamh Brennan, policy executive.

Their opening statement has been circulated to committee members and will be taken as read. I will allow a five-minute presentation and then we will go into a question and answer session. I invite Mr. Rushe to make his opening statement.

Mr. Brian Rushe

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for inviting the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, here to discuss the consolidation of horticultural growers. The farmgate value of the horticulture sector is currently valued at €529 million. The national strategy for horticulture anticipates that the farmgate value of the sector will increase by 30% to €688 million, if the necessary actions in the report are implemented.

The challenges facing this sector are multi-factorial. The rising cost of production and the dominant position of the retail buyers has resulted in the consolidation of growers over the past decade. The Irish horticultural sector has always operated on tight margins, but increases in energy, labour, packaging and other business inputs have unfortunately squeezed a number of growers out of production again this year. Our growers are being squeezed from all sides with the added actions of retailers who are relentlessly pushing down the retail price of their products and embarking on unsustainable discounting to encourage store footfall. Radical changes are needed to save Ireland's horticultural sector. We have lost key growers from our industry in the last two years. It is projected that the area of field vegetables will contract by a minimum of 7% again this year.

The most recent national field vegetable census, which is actually out of date, showed that the number of field vegetable growers fell from 377 in 1999 to 165 in 2014, a reduction of 56%. The IFA estimates that there are currently less than 100 commercial field vegetable growers left in the country. On one hand we have the Government looking to foster and expand our sustainable horticultural sector, yet unless changes are made, the reality is that our sector will continue to contract, resulting in the loss of family farms. In recent years, input price inflation in the horticulture sector in Ireland has taken a firm hold. It is rooted in Brexit, the Covid-19 pandemic, and more recently the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Input costs for growers could rise further and we have no resistance to that because we are so dependent on global supply. Growers have seen unparalleled increases in key input prices, particularly those inputs linked to energy inflation during 2021 and early 2022, but all inputs have been impacted.

Growers have been negotiating with their consolidator or supermarket buyer for price increases over recent years with varying degrees of success.

The current gas price is approximately twice as expensive as March 2021 and five times higher than 2020. According to the most recent Teagasc report for the vegetable sector, input price inflation is running at 7.9% since the last Teagasc horticulture input price inflation report in March 2022 and at 35% since March 2021.

In the potato sector, growers were forced to export potatoes to Portugal and Holland this year as they could not afford to store crops any longer due to energy costs. Ironically, we now face a gap in the market between old and new season potato crops.

A large proportion of horticultural produce is destined for the Irish retail sector. Apart from mushrooms, virtually all horticultural produce is for the domestic market. Retail food price deflation from 2010 to 2020 has put huge downward pressure on growers’ margins. The falling price of food and fresh produce from the sector has resulted in squeezed margins for primary food producers and poses a significant threat to the viability of food production in Ireland.

Our horticulture sector depends on getting a viable return direct from the marketplace as growers in this sector generally do not receive direct payments under the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. While there have been some moderate increases in food prices on the shelves in recent months, the reality is that between January 2010 and December 2021 the average price of all food declined by 9%. Over the same period, the average level of overall consumer prices increased by 12.5%, according to the Central Statistics Office, CSO. As a result, only a small number of horticulture growers have survived. They have been forced to scale up and are all extremely vulnerable today. This is completely unsustainable and, without a reversal of this trend, will lead to irreparable harm to the Irish horticulture sector. At a minimum, the sector needs the immediate reintroduction of the horticulture exceptional aid payment.

Today's retail environment is dominated by five players: Dunnes Stores, SuperValu, Tesco and the two discounters, Aldi and Lidl. Together they constitute 90% of the total grocery market. These retailers have used fresh produce as marketing tools to attract consumers into their stores, offering fresh fruit and vegetables at discount prices that do not relate to production costs. Retailers may claim that the cost of special promotions is funded by them but, while this may be accurate on a short-term basis, the cost of such promotions is built into procurement prices over time. The price that growers get paid each year has consistently declined up to this year.

Retail discounters Lidl and Aldi, in particular, use local-sounding brand names and fake farms and creameries to market many of their products. The IFA called out this practice in summer 2021, only to be hauled into the courts by Lidl seeking an injunction to stop the IFA from highlighting this potentially misleading practice. It is imperative that the new agrifood regulator addresses these issues with urgency.

There are three pillars to sustainability: environmental, social and economic. Today in Ireland we have legislation underpinning two of these pillars, namely, environmental and social. There is no legal protection for the economic sustainability of food producers. That needs to change. Below-cost selling and procurement must be prohibited. This should apply to all food, but especially produce from our horticulture growers. The price deflation of vegetables has resulted in the decimation of farmer margins and of Irish vegetable growers. Below-cost priced, Irish-grown vegetables have been used front-of-shop by some retailers for the past 20 years to lure in consumers. This strategy has worked for retailers, with increasing market share, often selling Irish vegetables at a loss, but making big profits on the thousands of other items in their stores. The IFA is calling for a ban on the below-cost selling and procurement of food and that the Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 be amended in the Seanad to address this.

Horticulture is a sector that relies heavily upon hired staff, especially at harvest time. The scarcity of hired staff is another big challenge facing the sector at present. While there are always staff supply issues at harvest time given the seasonal nature of the industry, the problem is now much more widespread throughout the year. Growers are having to pay higher wages to recruit and retain staff, but availability is currently a bigger issue than cost. Ireland is an outlier in Europe because it has no system for granting seasonal employment permits to foreign workers in sectors such as fruit picking, putting our growers at a competitive disadvantage. A bespoke seasonal work permit scheme for foreign workers must be a priority for the sector, in conjunction with a continuous supply of permits from the general employment scheme.

The long-standing issue of peat availability for domestic horticulture remains a bone of contention. The only measure that will resolve this is to introduce primary legislation to allow for the extraction of domestic peat for the Irish market. However, the Government is not willing to face reality and solve this problem.

There were an estimated 350 commercial vegetable growers in Ireland in 2010. The IFA now puts this number at fewer than 100, only one third of what we once had. This can be almost exclusively attributed to the reducing price being paid by the big retail buyers to their suppliers, forcing more and more of them out of business. The result is what we see on our shelves today: imported produce such as broccoli from Spain, tomatoes from Holland, strawberries from Egypt; and, this year, shortages and empty shelves as no imports were available. All these crops can be grown and produced almost ten months of the year in Ireland, but only if retailers pay the cost of local sustainable production. The discounting and degrading of food must be stopped. Retail buyers must be held accountable for the declining number of farmers in these vulnerable sectors of food production that depend on the domestic retail market. It is a sad situation when farmers producing beef and dairy products, where over 90% is exported, are doing better in world markets than farmers supplying fresh fruit, vegetables, pork and poultry to be consumed in Ireland.

The Government is calling for import substitution but we cannot even sustain the number of growers we have at present. Underpinning our domestic production has never been as important following recent shortages of certain products and the emphasis on food security. Better supports are needed for vegetable growers to avoid any more from exiting the sector and leaving the country even more dependent on imports. Fairness must be returned to a fundamentally unfair food supply chain.

I thank Mr. Rushe. He has outlined the problems we know are in the horticulture sector. We have done a lot of talking here about the availability of horticulture peat. I agree we are failing to face up to that issue. Importing peat is environmental madness as well as economic madness. While the growers have reduced by two thirds, the acreage has dropped by a far smaller percentage. Is that correct? Obviously the ones still there have increased their acreage.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Growers have consolidated and those left in business have been forced to scale up as much as possible. This year, it is expected the overall acreage will reduce by 7%, at a minimum, of field vegetables. Up to now, they have sustained to a certain degree the acreage but we are at such a stage now that it will be reduced by 7% this year, as projected by Teagasc.

I thank the speakers for coming in, in particular Mr. Rushe for his very reasoned opening statement. I will concentrate on growers but have a couple of questions for Mr. Rushe first. On Lidl and Aldi, we all appreciate we need cheap food but they are in many respects a divisive force in the Irish supermarket sector, particularly when it comes to suppliers and producers. In 2021, Lidl sought a court injunction. Has there been an outcome to that or did they leave it at that?

Mr. Brian Rushe

My understanding is that is still in play. It is still hanging over us.

So the IFA cannot do any publicity around that-----

Mr. Brian Rushe

No.

-----outside of this room, obviously.

Mr. Brian Rushe

Outside of this room, yes.

How divisive is and how big an impact has what Lidl and Aldi do? Call it what it is: false advertising, false Irish names and branding something as Irish that is not Irish.

Mr. Brian Rushe

It is the most disingenuous form of marketing. It is a form of deception. They give a product a name that sounds like a farmhouse brand, a locally produced product or even a farmer-owned co-op. There is a good reason to do that. If you are trying to sell product, you are trying to create the impression this has a direct connection to a farmer. It is something we have highlighted and feel strongly about. Most customers want to support farmers, we find. There is an understanding that they need to support farmers. If they are presented with a brand that sounds and looks farmer owned or connected, they will be buy it, but we know it is not. We have serious issue with the use of fake farms, co-ops or brands. We see them as own-branded products. If a product is an own brand, it should be labelled as an own brand.

An issue with using that kind of labelling on fruit is when the fruit is out of season, the retailer will use an imported product but will not change the packaging. There is an imported product in the bag but it has an Irish-sounding name.

It is creating an impression that it is locally sourced, grown and supported when it is anything but.

Ms Niamh Brennan

I agree. It is an issue we have at committee level. The brand name remains 12 months of the year. Especially when you are coming to a time where retailers might be switching over to Irish strawberries in May or June, it is very deceptive for the consumer to go into a retailer and see Flynn strawberries on the shelf containing Spanish strawberries, but two weeks later to see Irish strawberries in the same package. It is completely misleading for the consumer and that is what we are calling out. We want complete transparency for the consumer here and we think it is far from that.

On peat, there was a court case in the midlands earlier in June where the EPA had taken three growers to court. It was a major win for the producers in that the court established that three boglands were not technically and hydrologically connected. The EPA has continued to contend its flawed claim that bogland is hydrologically linked but unfortunately for it, it was unable to produce any evidence in this case or an expert to prove that they are linked. I think Mr. Rushe was here the day when Séamus Boland from Irish Rural Link was here. It had a pilot case to allow production of less than 30 ha. I think this judgment clears the way for that. Would Mr. Rushe agree we should put pressure on the Department now to push ahead with the case Mr. Boland presented to us?

Mr. Brian Rushe

One hundred percent. Look at what we are facing; we have no clear alternative. There is no alternative to peat so we have a situation where peat is being imported to satisfy the demand, and the demand is there. Until we have an alternative, the demand will remain. As the Chairman said before, it makes no sense. I am in north-west Kildare, in the middle of the bog really, where there are fruit growers bringing in peat on boats when they could literally buy it from their next-door neighbour but they are not allowed to touch it. It is something that needs to be progressed. It has been a constant issue during my time in this role for the last four years.

I welcome Niall McCormack who is a near neighbour of mine in Longford. I am delighted to see several of his neighbours have come to support him here. There was a debate on the EPA in the Dáil earlier where farmers were again vilified but Mr. McCormack's neighbours are here to support him in the important role he plays both as a custodian of the land and also a keen environmentalist. Mr. McCormack is a fruit grower. Will he give us some context of the scale of his operation?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We grow about 60 tonnes of strawberries and 3 tonnes of raspberries. We sell a lot to the west of Ireland and the midlands. Labour is our big problem. There is no fit-for-purpose work-permit scheme for horticulture in Ireland where there is all across the rest of the EU. The EU has become better off and even eastern European countries are quite well off so it is hard to get workers from there. We are calling for a fit-for-purpose work-permit scheme for horticulture. Am I correct in saying it is at the last stage through the Dáil?

Ms Niamh Brennan

Yes, it is at its third stage of the process. The legislation is being put in place for it. We had a commitment at a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, that a pilot programme would be in place in the first quarter of 2024. We cannot wait any longer than that. The quota of permits under the general employment permit scheme has been completely used up as of two weeks ago. Therefore there are effectively no permits available to the horticulture sector now.

Would the new Bill and the Minister of State's commitment on the pilot for the first quarter of 2024 resolve the matter to the IFA's satisfaction and put the Irish sector on a par with what an employer can offer in Europe?

Ms Niamh Brennan

I will answer that in two ways. It would resolve the seasonal aspect for vegetable growers and those who require the seasonal labour for six, nine or 12 months. Hopefully it will be similar to European schemes. However, for the likes of the mushroom sector, which requires labour 12 months a year, all year round, the general employment permit will still be required. We anticipate the mushroom sector would need about 200 permits per year and they would be rolled over every year, that is 200 new permits per year on a permanent basis. It would put us competitively aligned with other EU countries if we got the seasonal work permit scheme.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Frankly the work permit scheme at the moment is not working. If you look for a work permit for someone in horticulture now, you will find they are all used up. We are talking about a perishable product. For many farms, 45% of their turnover is labour. We are not at the stage with robots yet. It is maybe 20 years down the line. We are probably down the food chain when it comes to attracting staff because we are out in all types of weather and everything. For horticulture to arrest the decline and move forward, labour must be looked at. There was a scheme during Covid - the help to harvest scheme - but it did not work. The reality is we need a proper bespoke, fit-for-purpose work permit scheme or we will go absolutely nowhere in the horticulture industry.

So the biggest issue in horticulture is the availability of staff.

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is availability of staff.

The fruit grower's price now is reasonable but what about compared with five years ago?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Price is reasonable but we could do with more because inputs have gone through the roof, no matter what you look at. It is cardboard, packaging, ropes, plastic - everything.

Has Mr. McCormack outsourced his packing or is it done on site?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We have looked at everything. We are now part of a producer group. That is the way a lot of growers are going at the moment. Growers are doing everything to try and tread water and stay there.

Is that producer group selling Mr. McCormack's product or is he selling it direct?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I do the selling for the group and then it pays me. Then there is also money from Europe -----

Which of the multiples is Mr. McCormack selling to?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We sell to a lot of SuperValu stores and a lot of the food service companies. We sell to people like Dole in Galway and up along the west coast.

We mentioned Lidl and Aldi. Are they buying strawberries in Ireland or where are their strawberries coming from?

Mr. Niall McCormack

In fairness, they are. But of course, price is the issue.

Has Mr. McCormack ever supplied them?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We would. Through pack houses.

I thank Mr. McCormack.

I thank everyone for coming in and for their opening statement and presentation this evening. A couple of weeks ago, I was out with Welgro, the cucumber grower in Rush, which is now one of only two cucumber growers left in the country. Energy is the big issue it raised with me then. It was really good and I would encourage others to go out and see what it does. We come from different backgrounds in farming, I come from a livestock farm, so it is good to see what it does and it shows the huge potential we have to stand on our own two feet when it comes to food production beyond beef, dairy and so on, which is there and going well. It had won an award for sustainable business. When it comes to climate, environmentally friendly practices and sustainability, it is all there. That makes its potential even greater.

The IFA has talked a lot about energy, gas prices and so on. Something put to me, which I put to the Minister, was a carbon tax rebate. The carbon tax will continue to rise and will continue to be a rising cost for these businesses. Of that there is no doubt. However the Minister's response was that the new enhanced relief, as he called it, coming into operation on 1 June would provide relief for certain heavy oils and liquified petroleum gas used in horticulture production and mushroom cultivation. What difference will that make? What impact will it have for the sector?

Along with that, I am also aware that the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, has been a welcome and important support for many businesses throughout Covid. Has the sector been able to avail of that? I understand it has not.

Can we deal with those questions first, that is, the energy side, the carbon tax and TBESS?

Mr. Brian Rushe

I will pass the question over to Ms Brennan.

Ms Niamh Brennan

It is great that the Deputy was out with the Halpins at Welgro. It is truly innovative what they are doing there and it is good to see young blood in the industry, which is very rare these days.

On the carbon tax rebate scheme as it applies to oil, that probably will not make much difference and the growers will get a very small amount out of that. The natural gas rebate is of more significance. We brought this up recently and we were told it is with Revenue at the moment and that it is trying to put the scheme in operation. It has committed that it will be due this year, 2023, and we want to ensure that happens. To answer the question, it will not be worth a whole lot.

With regard to TBESS, we have explored that widely with potato, vegetable and fruit growers but, unfortunately, the reference period was not workable for the majority of growers. It did not differentiate between periods of high and low prices so while most growers investigated it and tried their best to get it, and I know an amendment was made that allowed a little more, but, unfortunately, it was nothing significant relative to the energy cost increases experienced by growers.

Overall, therefore, they have had no support for the increase in energy costs, which has been very significant, and they cannot do their job without it, so it is critical.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Absolutely. We had the horticulture exceptional payment scheme, HEPS, last year, which was useful for many sectors. There were exclusions, which we were irritated by at the time, especially the heated glass proportion of the strawberry growers, who experienced much higher challenges compared to other sectors. That heated proportion should have been included. While I do not want to take away from this, they are trying to combat import substitution, which is what the Government is trying to drive, and the heated proportion is expanding the shoulders of the season by bringing in strawberries earlier in the year. The fact they were very sceptical about heating those glasshouses this year meant that, effectively, we did not have that longer season. It is similar with cucumbers, and I am sure the Halpins were also telling the committee they did not get to expand their season.

We have been calling for a HEP scheme or some sort of scheme that will work for all sectors to try to combat the input costs. Those costs are still there and the committee will have seen the Teagasc figures that were released in March, which, based on figures from March 2021 to March 2023, showed inflation was running at 35%, and it was still up 7.5% between March 2022 and March 2023. The costs are not abating and we are going down a scary road unless we get support for the sector.

My next question relates to the exceptional aid payment. When that was introduced, it was said it would be a one-off and it was to do with the war in Ukraine and all of that, which is obviously still ongoing, so there is still an impact. Would the suggestion be to reintroduce that scheme and put it on a footing where it is an annual payment going forward? It is a good scheme and rather than creating another scheme, let us fix what needs to be fixed, rejig it if needed, and if there are exclusions, fix that, and have it as more of an annual support for the sector. Does Ms Brennan agree?

Ms Niamh Brennan

We need to keep reviewing the input costs on a continuous basis and have a scheme that will alleviate some of those costs as they occur. As the Deputy will be aware, the input costs have not abated. Mr. McCormack wanted to come in.

Mr. Niall McCormack

We are at a crossroads. Horticulture growers have suffered and people have got out of it. There will have to be a period where a bit of confidence is put back into it and maybe this is something that could be done to put a bit of confidence into the sector.

I have a few more questions. With regard to below-cost selling, the witnesses are probably aware of this because we saw it a lot, particularly through the agrifood regulator and the debate on the legislation that went through the Dáil. The Minister was very strong and clear and he repeatedly made the point that below-cost selling was in place before and it was discontinued for a reason, and nobody could tell him how it would work or show him an example of how it could work of where it worked well. He has said repeatedly that it is unworkable. Can the witnesses comment on how they see that working? I think it has a part to play but there is definitely resistance. The witnesses might speak to that point.

Mr. Brian Rushe

I will take the question. The Deputy mentioned the agrifood regulator and we welcome the appointment of Ms Niamh Lenehan. One of the big things for us is that we need that office to be fully resourced so Ms Lenehan will have everything she needs to be effective. It is a positive step but it is only the beginning. We will have to see how it works over the next few years. We are looking forward to working with her.

On the issue of below-cost selling, I am aware of the Minister's comments. As to what can be done, when we look at below-cost selling, we are really talking about protecting the farmer or the food producer. As sure as night follows day, when compression comes at retail price level, it eventually lands at the farmer’s gate. A retailer might say to us that it is selling carrots at 5 cent a bag and it is taking the cost, and that might be right on that day, but somewhere else, a margin is being squeezed. Every time we see below-cost selling in a retail store, we know it eventually comes at the farmer's expense.

The Minister is saying that this or that cannot be done. Maybe we need more transparency at that level in terms of retail purchasing and more transparency on where the margins are on certain food groups to make sure we can see where the true costs are. That would throw total light on what is happening.

There are two issues with below-cost selling. The first is how it affects farm gate prices, which it absolutely does, regardless of what retailers say. The second is the perceived value or, in fact, the devaluation that it creates for the customer. It creates this impression or this assumption that as food is cheap to buy, then it must be cheap to produce, which devalues our product. When we go looking for a price increase, as we continuously have to, we are facing an uphill battle. Not only are we battling with a retailer, but we are battling with a consumer who has the false impression that the product is cheap to produce.

It is not popular to say but we have to ask ourselves a question about this. When very high-quality produce is being produced, and not easily produced, and there is all that goes into that, and while cheap food is good and well and no one wants to pay a lot when doing the weekly shop, a price will have to be paid for that high-quality produce. Is that not the reality?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes. The problem down the line might be our own national food security. We are at the end of the line. We see this year in Spain that they are worried about their horticulture sector due to concerns about water. Where is the country going? To sell carrots at 49 cent is totally unsustainable. It is using the earth's resources. People tend to buy a lot of the stuff when they go into the shop and it ends up on a rubbish tip. Where is the country going in terms of food security?

Mr. Brian Rushe

I have one final comment linked to this point. We fully recognise that there is a cost-of-living crisis in the country and our members are affected as much as anyone else. We accept that but we would have to be disappointed by some of the comments coming from elected representatives about putting pressure on retailers to drop their prices because inflation is dropping. We have shown that our input costs have not come back. They rocketed last year and they are not coming back. That is hammering our margin. The bottom line is that when a retailer drops prices, it lands at our gate.

Mr. Sean Ryan

Mr. McCormack mentioned the price of 49 cent. The bigger problem is that all of the rest of the buyers see the 49 cent and they all drag back to it, and it is then countrywide.

When they start, everyone else follows. That is where the real problem is.

Low-cost selling requires a job of work from us all. If an example can be shown, it would come back on the argument the Minister and Department have put out there to the effect that it is totally unworkable, which is the word the Minister used. Perhaps something could be produced to show how it can work. It would be worthwhile to put such an argument together. That would be a good piece of work.

The IFA has stated that Ireland should be able to stand on its own two feet far more when it comes to growing fruit and vegetables, in particular. Much more of that growth was done years ago. People had no choice. They grew their own fruit and vegetables and ate them. That was how they survived. It can be done. On the final point about better supports, I wonder what more can our guests say and tell us in respect of what is practically needed today. Do we need to make the payment that is there an annual payment? Do we need more not only to sustain the sector but to grow it to meet the potential that is there? What do our guests consider the better supports?

Ms Niamh Brennan

I will take the second part of the Deputy's question about what is needed in the very short term to try to put out the fires and sustain the growers we have at present. We need Government support to intervene on the import costs. There is no doubt about that.

More long term, it is evident from the national strategy for horticulture that was launched at Bloom that there is recognition of the farm gate value. The Government wants to increase that by 30%. However, we need to address the issues that are outlined in that strategy document. We need a whole approach. Labour must be sorted out. That is number one. The food regulator is a welcome appointment. We need to get that office up and running, and working. We need more transparency and regular reporting on the market data. We obviously need substrate. We need to continue support for peat substitutes. A whole approach is required if we want to save the horticultural sector. There are no fast wins. We will get a few quick wins in terms of labour that will help to sustain the sector but if we want to get that additional 30%, we will have to address that strategy. We are working on that. The IFA is part of the working group that is driving that strategy. We have a number of ideas but we need the resources to try to drive that on to sustain and grow our numbers.

Mr. Brian Rushe

On the Deputy's first question, I take on board the point about giving examples. However, I re-emphasise the point that the transparency piece is lacking. Let us hope the food regulator can do something in that regard.

There is probably something to be done around unsustainable discount. Perhaps a bottom line, a minimum price, could be put in place. Unsustainable discounting, as my colleagues have mentioned, is creating these price wars. Once one goes, the rest go too and it lands at our gate.

I thank Mr. Rushe and the team from the IFA. I know they have a lot of experience in horticulture, agriculture and retail. They come with great knowledge and experience, which is important. The shocking thing is that horticulture is in crisis. Let us be honest about it. To hear that we now have fewer than 100 growers of field vegetables is alarming in a country with a climate, soil and a whole set of circumstances that make it ideal for growing many vegetable crops. We have a crisis here. There is a tripartite coalition in government, including the Green Party. Its members speak and advocate for the organic sector, which has a place in the bigger issue but not everything has to be organic. This is about food, food security and safety, and sustainability in the bigger agrifood sector.

I will make a few comments and take our guests through five or six points. Perhaps we can then have a dialogue, one by one. First and foremost, we know the Government launched its new national strategy on horticulture at Bloom. What is our guests' initial response to it? What do they think about it? They can speak honestly and frankly. I would interested in hearing some key words on what our guests think about the strategy and the direction and timelines involved. Mr. McCormack might kick off.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Frankly, I smile.

Mr. Niall McCormack

I have seen four or five years where Government agencies are looking for a report on something because they do not believe us. The work permit section is looking for employment reports when it knows damn well that we are at full employment. We had to get Mr. Jim Power to put together a retail price compression document. Frankly, I smile. Unless something is done, we will not have a horticulture sector. As the Senator rightly pointed out, our soil is suitable. We have a great climate in this country. Take Southern Europe as an example. It has problems with heat and everything else. We are in an ideal situation. I smile at this sudden glib line about looking for another 30% when we are in this situation. We are losing good growers, as Ms Brennan knows, who have years of experience.

In simple terms, Mr. McCormack thinks the strategy is a bit of a disaster. He thinks it is a vision rather than a plan.

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is a vision.

Is it even that?

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is a nice-looking vision but unless people roll up their sleeves in the labour area and addresses prices in the food regulator area, we will not have an industry, not to mind expanding it by 30%.

Am I to take it from that response that Mr. McCormack is not impressed?

Mr. Niall McCormack

I am not, to be honest.

Mr. Brian Rushe

May I add a comment? We have seen these strategies. The Government is looking for growth. We need to arrest the decline first. If you keep losing growers, you lose critical mass. You lose knowledge, facilities and infrastructure. Trying to get people back into that is nearly impossible. In order for a strategy to be successful in bringing a sector on a journey to increase production and value, the first step is to arrest the decline that is there at the moment. We must hold onto what we have first and then build from that base. We must strengthen the base because without a foundation, that strategy is destined to fail.

That is grand. Let us move on to below-cost selling. Mr. Rushe said in his opening statement, "The IFA is calling for a ban on the below-cost selling and procurement of food and that the Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 be amended in the Seanad to address this." I am a Member of Seanad Éireann and am happy to run with that. I will support the IFA. Has Mr. Rushe a wording for an amendment? Has he thought about the amendments? He may not have that information today. I am here to partner with the IFA, as I have said time and again. The IFA has a bureau and experts. Its members come from the field of expertise in this area. I commit that I am willing to put that amendment to the Seanad. Amendments have not yet been submitted because the next Stage of the Bill has not yet been scheduled. The IFA might share its proposed amendment with the committee anyway but I would be interested to look at it and run with it. Perhaps we can talk about that at another time. The IFA has made a request and I am giving a commitment in response. I do not think we need to talk about that anymore but I would like the IFA to engage with me in that regard.

On work permits, Mr. Rushe talked about the need for a bespoke seasonal work permit scheme. Has he a particular model in mind in terms of the EU experience?

Mr. Brian Rushe

I have. This would be outside the EU. The mushroom sector needs approximately 200 workers because harvesting mushrooms is continuous and happens all year round. The fruit and vegetable sector needs short-term work permits covering six to nine months. There must be a reasonably priced and workable system. It must be practical. At the moment, if a horticultural enterprise looks for a work permit for a worker, it cannot get it.

What is the model the IFA is proposing?

Mr. Brian Rushe

The IFA will probably have to sit down with the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond. I will let Ms Brennan come in.

Ms Niamh Brennan

I do not think the model is going to be the issue, to be honest. The issue will be the turnaround time for those permits when they are put in place. The model is clear. We need workers to be brought in for six, nine or 12 months, depending on the sector in question. The Departments involved will have to work together. The Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Justice and Agriculture, Food and the Marine will have to work together on this point because it needs to be 100% transparent.

We need the visas to align with the work permits or we are going nowhere. That is the key issue we have at the minute. To expand on that, there are huge issues on the general employment permits where mushroom growers, in particular, were awarded work permits but the visas have failed. There is no legislation there to provide them with a refund. That seems like madness, and that cannot happen in the seasonal work permit scheme. Mr. McCormack will probably touch on the cost as well. If one is bringing a worker for six, nine or 12 months, one cannot expect to pay €1,000 for each of those workers, on top of the recruitment fee involved with getting that.

I do no think there will be an issue around the model, if we can work that. The issue will be around the timing of the visas and of the processing of those permits. As the Senator is aware, the season is short and snappy. If you have a delay of a month, there is no point in bringing that worker in.

We understand that. We are all in the same boat and we know that there is this need. We are advocates here, and we are partners with the witnesses. We are not at odds. Again, it would be helpful for the committee if the IFA could set out what it is proposing. We have our own context, politically, in this place. The IFA needs to crystallise the ask. I always say that we need clarity, and for the ask to be crystallised. It would be helpful for the committee if the witnesses could set it out now, in the short term. We are in the season now. That would be helpful and the IFA might follow that up with the committee in order that we can advocate for that.

On peat availability, this is a difficult one for me. On this committee, we have advocated strongly for peat and the whole issue around peat for one or two years. Regardless of the Green Party having capitulated, we do not have a lot of support. We have found it difficult to engage politically with the relevant Ministers responsible in this area, and that is no big secret for anyone in this room. However, it appears that the mushroom industry is getting by. I would like to be able to have more details to make a more convincing argument on peat. I agree that the mushroom sector is a very successful one. One can walk into a high street in London and eat or buy Irish mushrooms today. It is fantastic. It is an amazing industry, with every store in there. We have an amazing industry and we need to grow it. It is like everything that Mr. Rushe said earlier. Once we get out of the production and get out of the way of doing business and get out of the plant and out of the processes, can the witnesses share with us what the current issue is regarding the peat crisis? Has it impacted, in terms of figures? Let us get clarity here in terms of production, output and the industry. Can they tell us where we are now on the lack of peat industry, specifically with regard to mushrooms? The mushroom industry is an area I am particularly concerned about.

Mr. Brian Rushe

I want to make a brief comment before I hand over to Ms Brennan. We are equally frustrated with regard to the lack of movement there and we appreciate the work done by this committee on this issue. It is very much appreciated. You pull your hair out thinking that importing peat from eastern Europe while your are sitting in the middle of a bog is not reason enough to allow it to be used, let alone looking for another reason on top of that.

I understand where the Senator is coming from. The key frustration of our guys is that they are importing containers of this stuff legally - totally allowed, and encouraged, we would say - while a domestic product, on our doorstep, is closed up. The volumes are small. It is a clear example of ideology getting in the way of reality. I want to be clear. We understand the importance of those bogs and their value but you cannot pull the rug from under an industry and a key input and expect the solution to come straight away. Ms. Brennan might make another comment.

Ms Niamh Brennan

On availability, the sector is just about getting by. There are a number of court cases ongoing at the minute and what the sector's future will look like depends on their outcome. A lot of these companies and growers are investing a lot of money into alternatives and we wish to make clear that they are very willing to work with alternatives. There is no problem there but it needs to be commercially viable.

As for Mr. Seamus Boland's report, which was requested by the working group, one of the key requests of that report was to ascertain the exact requirements of the horticultural industry for peat. I do not think that was possible in that report. There is a lot of work to be done but the court case alluded to earlier showed light at the end of the tunnel regarding the sub-30 ha bogs. We think a possible way forward is for the county councils to be instructed that this bog, which is sub-30 ha, is not hydrologically linked. If they have that instruction, it would give people the confidence to extract the peat on that sub-30 ha bog. Where we were going last year, we were on the right track, but that hydrological linking was the biggest bone of contention. We need to overcome that point if we are to pursue the sub-30 ha rule, which can sustain the industry.

Mr. Rushe made the valid point about the pillars of sustainability: environmental, social and economic. That is where people have lost the run of it, somehow. They are all interlinked, and that is the issue. It is the environmental, the social and the economic. There is no point in having environmental and social if one does not have the economic. Everyone has to wash their face at the end of the day and pay their bills.

I will finish by asking the witnesses to tell this committee today what their three most important asks are. They are here to ask. We are here to try to support them and to collaborate with them. What are the three most important things that we could do, get on and move with in the next few days in terms of immediate support for the sector? We are now in the height of growing and production in this sector at this time of year. What would the witnesses' three top priorities be with regard to movement in support of the sector?

Mr. Brian Rushe

I thank the Senator. The three would be labour, which has been spoken about by my colleague Mr. McCormack; the food regulator, which needs to be brought into play immediately and fully resourced; and finally, input cost support. Margins at farm level are being hammered across all the sectors, but particularly in the horticultural sector at the minute.

I thank Mr. Rushe for his clarity on those three.

I also welcome the guests and agree with the Chair; it is like Groundhog Day. We are back discussing the same things over and over again. It is crazy to think that we have a sector that is worth €529 million and that we are depending on fruit and so on being imported when we have, as was already said, a climate that is suitable for what we are talking about. We have gone to a situation where we are dependent on importing stuff. I am looking at the figures for the 15-year period that say that we have gone down to 100 growers, in the IFA's estimation. Alarm bells should really be ringing in any sector, never mind the horticultural sector, if it has gone down as low as 56% of a loss in a 15-year period. If it is going that quickly, we will have no one within the next five to ten years unless it is addressed very quickly. Every bit of fruit, or anything that we eat, will have to be brought into the country.

On the potato sector, I will go through a couple of different issues. The inability to actually afford storage here meant that growers were forced to export potatoes to Portugal and Holland. We have a gap in the market between the old and new-season potato crops as a result of that. Can any of the witnesses expand on that, and see where the situation arises when challenges such as being unable to afford the storage are encountered? What does the exportation to Portugal and Holland for these reasons do to the bottom lines of producers and consumers here?

Mr. Sean Ryan

The main thing is that growers had stores full of potatoes. I can give one example of a grower in Meath who had three fridges running, and it was costing him €15,500 a month to run the fridges. Growers needed money to pay their electricity bills, or they were going to be cut off. The market came up. I have had packers and peelers ringing me talking about export. I said that this is a very short outlook and that they would want to think of next year. I said to them to go the growers, secure the product and pay them for a little bit of cold storage, and they will have the product.

They did not do that and now they are looking for potatoes that are not there. The growers cannot be blamed for that. If the market was there, everyone in this room would do it. If you are under pressure to pay bills, you will take the market that is there. The peelers and packers did not secure the product when they should have.

We are faced with a shortage now.

Mr. Sean Ryan

Yes.

Below-cost selling and inflation in the cost of growing vegetables have resulted in the decimation of farmers’ margins. The IFA is calling for the Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 to be amended in the Seanad. Amendments were tabled to the Bill to give the regulator more powers, especially to investigate anti-competitive practices and below-cost selling. For some reason, though, the Minister rejected those. He seems to believe the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, is there to do that. He is opposed to the notion of banning below-cost selling. There is a belief within the Department that this mechanism is working but we do not believe it is. If it were working, it would not be raised at our meetings whenever we have these discussions. What is the IFA’s view? Does it believe that the CCPC has the ability to tackle these issues? I understand that similar conversations were held when the Bill was being discussed by the committee. Has there been any engagement between the IFA and the CCPC or has the CCPC given the IFA any indication that the matter is on its agenda?

Mr. Brian Rushe

We have had no joy or success in highlighting our issues with the CCPC. That is the bottom line. If the Department is right about it working, why do we have fewer than 100 horticulture growers? The decline in the liquid milk sector could almost be coupled with that. All of our horticulture growers’ product is in the Irish market, so they are totally exposed to the circa 90% dominance of the retail sector by the big players. That compression is landing at growers' doors. If they were being protected, we would have more than 100 growers today and the decline would be stopped. As such, the CCPC is not working. In our experience, the commission’s sole mandate seems to be to ensure that consumers have low prices but it is not looking after the producers who are providing the consumers with that food. There has to be more balance and fairness in the supply chain.

The IFA is asking the Bill to be amended in the Seanad. Would it be in favour of giving the regulator extra powers?

Mr. Brian Rushe

Yes.

Most of my other questions have been asked, so I will ask about peat availability. It is stupid and crazy that we are importing peat from eastern Europe when we have bogs all over this country. Is there any indication of what progress is being made? We hear about alternative peat products. We have all spoken to horticulturists, garden growers and so forth. They are all trying their own mixtures. For the industry as a whole, though, is there any indication of where the alternative peat products are? Is there a date for when they will be available, for example, this time next year?

Ms Niamh Brennan

Any research into an alternative will take a number of years. This is something we would have said last year. It will take a minimum of five to ten years to source a suitable commercial substrate. Work is ongoing but it will take more time. Recently, the UK's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DEFRA, stated that it was looking to go peat free by 2030 but its statement also mentioned that it was seeking a derogation for plant plugs and mushroom production because there was no certainty that a viable alterative would be available until 2030. We need to think along the same lines. We are making progress and Teagasc is doing work, as are many producer organisations, POs, but the problem will not be solved today or tomorrow.

Has the IFA confidence that the alternative, when it comes on board, will be as good as the natural peat we have stopped harvesting? Will it be as good as or better than what is being imported?

Ms Niamh Brennan

It is highly-----

We discuss greenhouse gases and carbon footprints. I would love to know what the ships and trucks loading it over there to bring it here and take it all around our country are emitting.

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is not only peat. To grow strawberries, we are bringing coir into the country from Sri Lanka and that area. A big dirty tanker crossing the world-----

It is probably solar powered. I have no other questions. Everything else has been answered. I thank the witnesses for their answers.

The witnesses spoke about the agrifood regulator. The CEO designate has been appointed. Has the IFA had any contact with the CEO designate on any of the issues it has discussed at this meeting? If so, what reception did it receive and how did the meeting go?

Mr. Brian Rushe

My understanding is that we will meet the CEO designate in the coming weeks to raise those issues.

After the legislation has been fully passed by the Houses.

Mr. Brian Rushe

Yes.

That is good to hear.

It was mentioned that there were 350 growers in 2010 but only approximately 100 today. What acreage was being grown on in 2010 and what is that figure today?

Ms Niamh Brennan

A similar question was asked earlier. I do not have the figure for the exact acreage to hand but it has probably not contracted a whole amount. The point is that we have lost family farms as a result. Smaller growers have exited production and other growers have scaled up as a result. We have lost a number of small family farms because of this situation, which had to take place. Teagasc’s latest report in March stated that, in acreage terms, a 7% reduction in field vegetable production was anticipated for this year. We have not seen that steep decline in acreage to date but we will definitely see it, given how we have such a small critical mass. If any more growers go out of business, the acreage will suffer.

Mr. Rushe stated:

The farm-gate value of the horticulture sector is currently valued at €529 million. The national strategy for horticulture anticipates that the farm-gate value of the sector will increase by 30% to €688 million, if the necessary actions in the report are implemented.

Can the witnesses see that happening? If the necessary actions are not implemented, where do they see the sector going?

Ms Niamh Brennan

If all of the actions were implemented in the morning, there would be some scope for increases. At the moment, though, we are looking to sustain what we have. That is our bottom line. We are looking to keep our current growers in production. We are long way away from expanding our sector. If in the morning we had research, alternatives and a correctly operating food chain that took input prices into consideration, we might be able to expand. In the next few years, however, we are just concerned with maintaining the sector.

Mr. Sean Ryan

We have gone from approximately 700 potato growers to 160. There are five main packers supplying five main multiples, which have 92% of the market. That is a frightening figure. As the Deputy knows, we lost a few in our own county last year.

Mr. Sean Ryan

From speaking to growers from Donegal to Wexford every day, there are people saying they have payments left for two years, after which they will be out. That is the case across the country. However bad it is now, it will be much worse this day next year if the situation continues as it has been.

I am still in contact with the growers who got out. I have asked them whether they would get back in if things got better and they said that if they got double the money they would not go back in because of the stress and risk involved in growing a crop. Serious money is involved as the inputs, fertiliser and all the costs, have gotten out of hand. The growers are also getting to a certain age. They are getting older. Succession will be a serious problem. Younger people on the farms are not even looking into it. We have met the supermarkets about some of that and to talk about getting young people into horticulture. It will not happen. There are no young people. Land availability is a serious problem and when a distressed grower is holding up a ten cent coin on the "Six One News" stating that is all he needs to stay in business, no young lad will be interested. No bank will give that sector money the way it is going at the moment.

I compare potato farmers to sheep farmers. When a father retires or passes away, the young fellow just gives it up. That is the way it is. For potatoes it is the price. I trained and worked in horticulture in Kildalton Agricultural College and I also spent a few years in England. How does the Irish horticultural sector compared to that of the rest of Europe? Spanish strawberries are imported and sold in Lidl and Aldi. Is the cost of production much lower than ours enabling them to export here? I will return to the staffing issue later in my questioning.

Mr. Niall McCormack

They have the same cost problems. Generally Spanish strawberries are at the beginning of the season and we come in afterwards, but Spain seems to have a better system for sourcing labour. The producers are able to get workers. We have a regulated and cumbersome system when it comes to work permits. These crops are expensive to grow. If someone gets sick or something else happens, it is no longer possible to get Johnny down the road to help on the farm. Staff are needed. Dealing with staff is stressful but not having them is more stressful.

I am familiar with fruit growing and fruit growers in County Wexford. Their costs have gone through the roof. Are the Flynn's strawberries in - I am not sure whether it is Aldi or Lidl - at the moment, Irish strawberries?

Mr. Niall McCormack

In fairness I think they are probably Irish strawberries at the moment.

They still package them as Flynn's Irish strawberries coming into season and going out of season in September or October.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, the problem is that they may switch to Spanish strawberries or strawberries from somewhere else and because of the look of the punnet and because people only take a split second to take a decision, they pick up Spanish strawberries and think they are Irish. A bit of codding is going on.

Mr. Brian Rushe

I will comment on the cost of imported versus domestic products. One of the things that challenges European, including Irish, growers is that our regulatory environment, such as EU regulations and some of our quality assurance standards, adds significant costs. A lot of imported products do not carry those costs or the same regulatory burden we have. That covers all the agricultural sectors. It is an advantage. On top of the lower level of regulation, there is an abundance of labour and the producers are probably operating at a much larger scale than Irish growers, which gives them an additional advantage. I was stopped at a meeting last night by a farmer who said he was buying onions in a supermarket and noticed that there were not any onions from Ireland on the shelf. They were from Australia and Argentina which is unbelievable. It is important to make the point about the regulatory burden.

What percentage of Irish mushrooms are exported and what percentage are sold domestically? How are we able to successfully produce and export many of our mushrooms? A mushroom grower might not agree with my statement. They are probably better off than many in the sector, such as some of the fruit and vegetable growers such as potato growers.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Up to 80% or 85% of our mushrooms are exported to the UK market. We are renowned for our climate and expertise in mushroom growing that allow us to service the UK market. However, many mushroom growers suffered on foot of Brexit. We lost a lot of growers. We are renowned for growing mushrooms and it would be a pity if issues such as the substrate were to erode the value and expertise we have built up over the years in our mushroom industry.

Has the IFA spoken to the Department about the reintroduction horticulture exceptional payment, HEP, and what kind of feedback is it getting?

Mr. Brian Rushe

We have spoken to the Department. Ms Brennan has been doing so.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Yes we have. We made a submission last November for a new HEP scheme to be put in place. We are constantly liaising with the Department and Teagasc provided an updated input cost analysis for this recently. The Department is definitely aware of the challenges. We need that scheme to cover all sectors again this year.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Unfortunately the strawberry sector was left out last time. We do not use heat but absolutely every cost we looked at had gone up. It was all related to energy costs. We use cardboard for outers, plastic for packaging, plastic for tunnels, fertiliser and so on. It was unfair that strawberry growers were left out last time. I hope that can be changed this time.

On biogroups, there have been huge savings in the agricultural sector on sprays, veterinary products and so on. Has better value been seen in packaging and plastics in the fruit sector?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Not much yet because much of the packaging we have used until now was bought last year. It is the same with fertiliser. The cost of fertiliser for the horticulture sector has come down very little so far.

Compared to the agricultural sector.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, compared to in the agricultural sector. I do not know why.

Is the fertiliser used in horticulture based on phosphorus, P, and potassium, K?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes, much of it is P and K based. Perhaps that is the reason.

Does the sector use more liquid fertiliser?

Mr. Niall McCormack

We use a fertiliser we mix in water so it comes out as liquid. It is a specialised fertiliser and its cost has not come down in the way the cost of other agricultural fertilisers have. The cost of labour has also gone up. The minimum wage went up in January 2023. Our input costs have not improved much. We are probably a little worse off.

The storage of potatoes has been a big issue for me in County Wexford. There is a huge number of large potato growers, as Mr. Ryan will be aware. Their energy costs have gone through the roof. One or two of them could have gone to the wall last year. I cannot blame them for exporting when the market was there. They went to a depleted market financially. They took the risk. They wanted to get rid of them. Where does Mr. Ryan see that going in autumn this year? No one knows how much energy will cost. Does Mr. Ryan believe the same will happen, that people will export potatoes if the market is-----

Mr. Sean Ryan

That market might not be there next year. No one knows.

We will not have exports next year because crops were planted two months late. Nothing was planted in March. There will probably be a little bit of a gap between the early crops and the main crops. I do not think we will have exports this year. I visited a crop yesterday evening where a field of 20 acres was completely written off by hailstones. We will not have them to export this year. That is the way it is looking.

The weather last weekend did a lot of damage to cereal crops-----

Mr. Sean Ryan

Yes. I visited fields yesterday evening.

-----and to horticultural crops.

Mr. Sean Ryan

Yes. Cabbages as well.

I was interested in what Mr. McCormack said on the staffing issue. During Covid we were speaking about bringing in foreign workers to pick strawberries and other fruit because no Irish person wants to pick strawberries any more-----

Mr. Niall McCormack

No.

-----as Mr. McCormack is well aware. Nor do they want to be involved in doing anything with fruit and vegetables because it is hard work.

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is hard work.

I will not say that Irish people are afraid to do hard work but that is hard work.

They have other options.

The scheme was an absolute disaster because it stopped a lot of permits from being issued. I argued against it. I told people they should visit any fruit farmer in County Wexford and see how difficult it is. It is a very difficult job to harvest fruit. It is very labour-intensive job. Twenty years ago when strawberries were picked, they were processed for jam. That is not the case now. It is all fresh fruit. It is very intensive and takes the right person to do it. Is this a big issue at present?

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is.

With regard to permits and the dairy sector, I have spoken to the Minister about the farm relief service. We are making progress. In the fruit and vegetable sector how many more workers are required? Many people are not growing as much because they do not have the staff.

Mr. Niall McCormack

If it were studied properly we would see that growers have lost some fruit because they did not have the staff to harvest it. There is a window of opportunity of only one or two days. There are farms that have got out of strawberries. It is major issue. We will not arrest this decline and expand by 30% unless we sort out the labour issue.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. Earlier they spoke about exports and imports. How much vegetable produce in exported from Ireland, leaving aside mushrooms? Where does it go?

Ms Niamh Brennan

It is completely for domestic supply. The majority of fruit and vegetable, if not all, is for the domestic market.

Nothing is exported.

Ms Niamh Brennan

Apart from mushrooms.

With regard to the peat situation the witnesses have outlined the need but there seems to be no solution for the mushroom sector. What about other horticulture sectors that require peat? How are they fixed?

Mr. Niall McCormack

The strawberry sector uses coir which comes from Sri Lanka. It comes from halfway across the world. Some growers still use peat.

How does coir work?

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is a by-product of the coconut industry.

Mr. Niall McCormack

In fairness, it is quite a good product but it is-----

Is it more expensive?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Before this year the price was sky high and now it is starting to reduce. It is a good product in fairness but it is expensive.

Mr. McCormack spoke about the number of people who have left the industry. There have been meetings with the Minister. Are there forward plans? We should have learned lessons with regard to the war in Ukraine and food security. Does the Department have a plan to encourage people to get into the industry? Does it have a pathway forward whereby we will avoid realising someday that, having lost all the people who produce the product in this country and being reliant on someone else, it then does not come in? In the negotiations with the Department, is any common sense being used to entice or mollycoddle people to get into it?

Mr. Brian Rushe

The point I always make about encouraging and enticing people, be they young or old, into an industry is that you should make the industry an attractive place to be. The number one thing that will attract people to an industry is that it will be economically sustainable and they will get a return on their investment and have a good quality of life. As has been detailed by our speakers, we cannot say this about the horticultural sector at present given the pressure, increasing input costs and price compression at retail level. We have seen massive consolidation at farm level, which leaves growers more vulnerable. If there are only one or two growers of certain products the squeeze is easier to put on them. Documents such as the horticultural strategy are positive and it is a comprehensive document. As Ms Brennan said, if everything in it were put in place it would be very positive for the sector. The problem is that it is a fairy tale if we cannot address and arrest the decline that is occurring.

I view the horticulture sector as the canary in the coal mine. We can apply what is happening in the horticultural sector to other sectors. We are starting to see it in liquid milk. This is a fact. If we allow the competitiveness of a sector to be eroded and the farmers' margins to be hammered, no one will get into it. We have identified simple actions that would instil confidence in the sector. This would be the first step to encourage people into the sector.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Sometimes the litmus paper test is with regard to people coming into the industry. Quite a number of young farmers have got into dairy farming. I know virtually nobody from the next generation coming into horticulture. This is a big test with regard to the situation we are in. As I said earlier, we have many reports. Growers are plain tired of the whole thing. We need action. We need somebody to roll up their sleeves and get the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Foreign Affairs to come together to put in place a strategy. If we do not do this, we will not have a horticulture industry.

Is it a big problem in every sector? I am involved in plant hire and there is a shortage of labour. What is the solution? Is it streamlined permits?

Mr. Niall McCormack

Yes.

What is the solution? It is affecting almost everything in rural Ireland at present, whether it is people making silage with tractors or people growing strawberries. Even hire shops for building in Dublin cannot get mechanics. They are looking to see whether the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, can get permits for South Africans or whoever.

Mr. Niall McCormack

That is okay but if somebody has €100,000 worth of vegetables in a field and cannot get it harvested-----

Mr. Niall McCormack

In another industry, people can stop and start but if there is €100,000, €200,000 or €300,000 worth of fruit in a field and only 80% of it can be harvested-----

How co-ordinated is the industry? Is there any long-term-----

Mr. Niall McCormack

It is a disaster.

I am speaking about forward buying and trying to get a deal done for a two or three-year period so that people will know they are okay. Do contracts such as this exist or is it a race to the bottom with the supermarkets kicking the daylights out of the producers telling them that someone in Spain-----

Mr. Niall McCormack

People cannot get a signed contract for anything. People are just as good as their last-----

There are no signed contracts from any of the major retailers.

Ms Niamh Brennan

The tendering process for a lot of products would begin before the season takes place. Then there are supposed to be contracts; not signed contracts but contracts of some description. We meet the retailers regularly. In the past two years, we have had the war in Ukraine and the price of production needs to be reflected in those contracts and there needs to be flexibility to allow for changes in that. That includes the need for analysis on the input costs feeding directly into that. That is where the food regulator will play a key role in allowing that transparency.

Does the IFA have a contract or not?

Ms Niamh Brennan

There are contracts of varying degrees but not signed contracts, as Mr. McCormack said. There are different arrangements.

I ask Ms Brennan to explain the something to me, as it often baffles me. When we were youngsters growing vegetables in gardens, including lettuce, onions or whatever, we pulled them and brought them in. After a day or two they were going yellowish. How come with a lot of imported stuff, lettuce could be in the fridge for nearly a month and it is still looking like it did the first day it came out of the ground? What is going on?

Ms Niamh Brennan

Gas is being added to some of them to prolong their shelf life. The Deputy mentioned onions, and Ireland historically had a good onion industry. Now we have the retailers looking for growers to supply onions again. The reason for this is the price that was being offered for onion growing was well below anywhere in Europe. This was because the environment to grow and dry onions on the Continent would have allowed the European growers a huge competitive advantage over Irish growers, who would have had to dry the onions with heat, etc., which has cost associated with it. The import of produce has extended the shelf life of products. The point I was making about the onions is that now we have retailers looking for Irish onions on our shelves again but, unfortunately, they will have to pay above what is being offered on the European market if growers are going to be able to afford to produce them.

I know my partner, Bernie, was at a meeting that Mr. Rushe was probably at because I have been hearing about the onion issue every weekend.

Mr. Brian Rushe

Yes.

Every weekend I go home and it is like a "Where in the World?" quiz. Peru was mentioned and I do not know where else was mentioned. If she is watching now, she will know I do not be listening to her but she can get reassurance from the fact that at least Mr. Rushe listened to her last night. I want to ask about the price and how it can be more competitive coming from Peru because Peru was mentioned. I cannot believe an onion can shipped from Peru, put on a shelf in Tullamore and that an Irish grower could not compete with it. Ms Brennan said that retailers are looking for Irish growers. I apologise because I was caught up in a lot of votes in the Seanad. I was whipped and on the schedule so I could not get out of them or avail of a pairing arrangement. I hate asking questions in the committee having come in late when somebody else might have asked the same questions. On that, when I was a young lad at home my father would chance his arm at anything if there was a chance of a few bob in it. He did a bit of mixed faring and everything and he took a contract one time with Erin Foods to grow Brussels Sprouts. It was a one-year contract and it was labour-intensive. Not only do I remember it but I will never forget it. I mention that type of model or system if you have retailers out there looking for Irish onions. The IFA is talking about solutions and we need to look for solutions here because we have hashed out all the problems. We all know the problems and I am not going back down over that track. Is there any potential solution to pull those heads and Departments together, including Bord Bia, and could funding be provided to have growers groups or producers groups? There is no Erin Foods anymore but there could be something along the lines of that model. It was going around knocking on the doors of farmers to sow or plant a crop. It had an adviser who came out and kept an eye on how the crop was growing, what treatment it needed, when was the right time to harvest it and what fertiliser was needed. There was a more mixed farming model at that time and it would probably not suit someone to get into horticulture now, even if you had the model in place. Surely there are still tillage farmers out there who could have it as a rotation crop. Is there any merit in a model like that, especially if one of the Irish retailers is looking for an Irish onion and it is not there?

Mr. Niall McCormack

The Senator talked about advice for crops. I farm in County Longford so where do I get my advice? I do not get it from Teagasc as it has one strawberry-----

That is the question I am asking. That advice was available that time and I am talking about 40 years ago.

Mr. Niall McCormack

My adviser flies in from England, he travels to Longford, Kildare, Wexford, back up to Dublin and flies out. We only have one strawberry adviser.

Is there a potential solution to overcome that problem and have a similar Irish-based model if we could pull together all the heads Mr. McCormack mentioned earlier? I am trying to tease out a potential solution and I am not providing guarantees or saying it is going to happen but we have to be solution-driven.

Mr. Niall McCormack

Growers are being encouraged into producer groups. We are in the Farm Fresh Produce Cooperative Society and we have only just joined it in May. That is probably one solution to bring growers together. They will have better bargaining power and more co-ordinated power with the supermarkets and they might have better power at input buying. That model is slowly starting to come into train. We still have to put confidence back into the industry, however.

I know this is probably small scale in the big picture but I imagine there would be even fewer horticultural growers, and especially field crop growers, if it was not for farmer's markets selling the Irish product. Is that something we are not getting the maximum out of?

Mr. Niall McCormack

In reality most people are buying in supermarkets. Farmer's markets make up maybe 1% or 2% of the market, they are generally higher priced-----

Should it or could it be a bigger percentage? Is there any way it can be incentivised if we are looking for solutions? It is down to the initiative of individuals. We have a chap at home who comes into the square in the village every Saturday morning and he goes home with an empty van. There is not another one for seven or eight miles. Is it something we need to try to formulate or come up with a solution to? Could it be aided or promoted?

Mr. Niall McCormack

There will have to be a lot of work done with this situation and solutions will have to be found. Maybe this is one small area that could be looked at but we are still dealing with five supermarkets that are buying 90% of the produce and where most people are doing their shopping. The Senator is correct that the guy in the farmer's market might be one small solution but we are still dealing with the multiples and they are the powers-that-be.

Mr. Sean Ryan

On that, we have a farm shop at home in the yard and since Covid we have seen the advent of online shopping. I went out on my road two weeks ago and the Dunnes Stores van passed, I went two miles down the road and the Tesco van passed and I went to the local village and the SuperValu van was in it. Covid really landed into the laps of the supermarkets and helped them to an untold degree. People do not realise how much people are shopping online, pressing a button and getting their groceries delivered to their doors. That is the way it has gone and that is where we see it in the potato business.

On what was said about the onions, from speaking to growers all the time, apart from the price their biggest problem is that most of them are 55 to 60 years of age and they have never worked as hard in their lives because they cannot get drivers or people to work. They are out at all hours of the night and morning doing jobs that they had someone doing for them years ago but now they have to go and do it themselves. They are just getting burned out and that is the second reason we are losing growers.

I appreciate that and I know of one instance of a pumpkin grower for the Halloween market and he just could not compete with the Dutch on price. I can never fathom how stuff can travel, with the cost of travel, and still be cheaper than we produce it.

Mr. Brian Rushe

We have potential to grow big yields because we get the rain. With the rain, there are input needs in terms of fungicides and things like that. That is a cost that many of our European counterparts just do not have. A dry climate brings with it certain advantages in terms of managing a crop, so they have that cost advantage. That is what we are trying to compete with. There needs to be an appreciation from the retailers, and you would hope it is not too late, around the constant compression like what they have done or when they say that if they cannot get it off us at a particular price, they will bring it in from Spain. Customers are asking why their onions are coming from the other side of the world and where the Irish onions are. There seems to be a realisation at retail level that what they have done is coming home to roost. They need to move quickly now to make sure we do not lose the critical mass of growers that we do have.

Is there any extra demand from the customer for organic or is there much potential there?

Mr. Brian Rushe

The big challenge with organic is what customers are willing to pay. The challenge with organics is that you suffer a yield penalty. That is a cost to the business because you do not have it to offset. The cost of production per unit is higher. Bar a niche or a small group of customers, I do not see large number of people willing to pay the extra for organic produce.

The volume would not be there to make it feasible.

Mr. Brian Rushe

I do not think so. We can look at the milk situation. At the moment, a conventional dairy farmer is getting more per litre of milk than an organic farmer because customers are just not willing to pay the premium. One worry I would have about organics is that farmers need to make their own minds up and make sure the market is there for the product they are selling. That is the key. If they go into it just for the payment or the subvention, over time that will erode. They need to make sure there is going to be a market there. There is a big role for Bord Bia in that in terms of creating the market. It is a production system that works well but we are a small island and a small population. We have a population that most European cities have, so our market is quite small.

That is where I was going next. Is there a marketing issue here? A brother of mine grows a few tomatoes as a hobby. He sends up some bull tomatoes every year. That is a tomato. What you are buying in the shop is not a tomato. If that was marketed correctly or if people tasted the difference once you would imagine there would be a market there. There has to be potential for creating that Irish homegrown market or even if you wanted to go as far as organic market. Is part of the problem here that we are not marketing our own?

Mr. Brian Rushe

In terms of the organic piece in particular, there is big job of work around marketing and making sure the market is there before the product goes out. It is going to leave a bitter taste in farmers' mouths if there is a big increase in organic production and they end up taking conventional prices. It is not going to be good news for farmers and is not going to be good news for the sector in general. I would agree about the difference the Senator spoke about. There is a market potential for that but it is about getting it to market. There are many people on our island, but we have a big market on our doorstep. Supply chains need to be put in place that allow us to access the European market. Then again, we would be competing with our European counterparts.

I was thinking about this when the witnesses were talking about the peat replacement that is coming across the world. It is. Is there any danger, because it is a coconut byproduct or a crop-based byproduct, of some foreign disease of any sort coming in or sneaking in the back door? Is that an issue because of the fact that it is a grown product as opposed to a manufactured or harvested peat? Are precautions being taken or tests being done? We have had issues before with little foreign bodies and diseases getting in the back door. Is there any danger of such a problem because of the fact that it is a grown product?

Ms Niamh Brennan

We would share that concern. The coir is used as a substitute in the strawberry sector. It has been used for a number of years. The main substitute being put into peat alternatives now is woodchip, which is imported. You can treat woodchip but we would still have concerns about what could be in it. On the quality aspect, some of the amenity growers have trialled some of the alternatives and woodchip is not able to retain the moisture as much so we will be in a situation where more water is required to keep the plants alive. It is a work in progress but the disease pressure would be a concern for us.

When it is finished or has served its purpose, is there a future for the byproduct? Is it able to be used or disposed of the way we would have used peat as a fertiliser or whatever? Will that be an issue down the line with regard to how the used commodity is disposed of? Has it a purpose or use?

Ms Niamh Brennan

I am not sure, to be honest. I do not know about the research in terms of what the end use would be. I am not sure. I am sure it will come out as the research advances.

This is in light of what the witnesses have said about the mushroom industry and the research they have done indicating that there is nothing suitable. Unfortunately, we have invited three Ministers in. There is a bit of cat and mouse going on about what is happening. There was been a court case in the past week where the EPA brought growers to court about a hydrologically linked area. The growers and peat processors brought in people at different levels who were able to do the science and I believe the case was won. I have seen this done before and I talked about it here at the committee. We can show that something is not hydrologically connected. This is an opening for the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the likes of the peat operators representatives.

This committee, and I will put this forward to the Cathaoirleach, should try to facilitate a private meeting - I am not looking for a public meeting - of those people in order to bang their heads together. I said this a few years ago. The Cathaoirleach will have heard me saying it at our meetings. This is the way to go forward and resolve the issue. No one other than this committee will do it. Ministers do not want to seem to come before us. We should make an effort because every single person at this committee has put a fair bit of time into trying to get a solution. It has been proven now that the EPA had nothing in its arse pocket when it came to proving what it had been saying. The other side, in fairness, got the evidence and showed that you cannot go around saying that this area and that area are hydrologically connected.

I know this might be outside our area but I think we should arrange a private meeting and invite the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Environment, Climate and Communications and Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and the growers in to see if we can bang heads together in order to arrive at a way forward and to facilitate things. We do not want to be losing jobs and we do not want these boatloads of stuff coming right across the world. We should see. This has been ruled on now. It is there. Rather than going to court every week for the next year, could we bring a path forward and resolve the issue in an amicable way that is suitable and is a way forward for everyone?

I second that proposal.

I agree with Deputy Fitzmaurice and Senator Daly. We have the court case. If the secretariat can get a summary of the findings of the court case, we should try to get a slot between now and the recess. It will have to be a private meeting. We are all available for a slot outside our normal time. We will take a Thursday afternoon if we have to. If we can get a summary of the court findings, we can then look to get who we feel can implement common sense into this.

I think the EPA should be brought in.

Yes. We will get a summary of the court findings and then we will see who we need to bring in to try to drive it forward. We will do that in a private meeting between now and the recess. Is that okay?

Did Senator Murphy want to come in?

I am delighted to be here to support the guests. My first job was teaching horticulture. I make a constant argument that when we talk about environmental issues, we are defeating the purpose when we ban the production of peat here and bring it in from eastern Europe instead. Also, we need to consider all the things we could produce in this country instead of importing them from all over the world. What effect is that having on our emissions? I have said before to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. There should be incentives, from an environmental perspective, to help the fruit and vegetable growers of this country.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. Unfortunately, as a committee, we are only too well aware of the problems facing the horticulture industry. The witnesses gave us a very concise and resolution-based report. Thank you for that.

The joint committee will next meet in public session at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 July. The committee will undertake an examination of the following: Ireland's water quality plans with interim review and engagement with the European Commission regarding the nitrates derogation; an update on Ireland's forestry strategy; the committee's political contribution in respect of COM (2022) 305, the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on the sustainable use of plant protection products and amending Regulation (EU) 2021/2115.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.51 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 July 2023.
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