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Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Jul 2023

Water Quality Monitoring Report: Discussion

Apologies have been received from Deputy Kehoe. Deputy Martin Browne will be substituting for Deputy Mythen. Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones.

I bring to the attention of witnesses that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means witnesses will have full defence in any defamation action arising from anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair’s direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members should be mindful when contributing that there can be no such assurance in respect of participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts.

The purpose of today's meeting is to undertake an examination of the 2022 water quality monitoring report of the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, on nitrogen and phosphorous concentrations in Irish waters. In the first session, the committee will hear from representatives of the EPA: Dr. Eimear Cotter, director of the office of evidence and assessment; Ms Mary Gurrie, programme manager of the office of evidence and assessment; and Dr. Jenny Deakin, senior scientist at the office of evidence and assessment. They are all very welcome to the meeting. Copies of the EPA's opening statement have been circulated to members and will be taken as read. The witnesses may make a five-minute presentation, after which we will move to a question-and-answer session.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I thank the committee for inviting us to discuss the EPA's latest water quality monitoring report on nitrogen and phosphorous concentrations. As the Cathaoirleach indicated, I am joined by Ms Gurrie and Dr. Deakin, both of whom deal with water quality monitoring and assessment at the EPA.

One of the most significant stressors on the ecological health of our waterways is high levels of nitrate and phosphorus. In drinking water, high nitrogen levels, above the drinking water standard, can pose a risk to human health. Agricultural activity is one of the main sources of nutrient losses to water in Ireland and is a significant pressure on approximately 1,000 water bodies. These impacts are seen throughout the country and are associated with all types of agricultural activities. High nitrate levels are a particular problem in the south and south east, where they are associated with freely draining soils and more intensive agricultural activity.

As well as being too high, nitrogen levels in groundwaters, rivers and estuaries have increased over the past ten years since their lowest point in 2012-13. A short-term peak arose in 2018 to 2019 as a result of the drought conditions in 2018, together with increased application of fertiliser that year. While still too high, nitrate levels have come down somewhat from that peak. There has been a slight increase again in 2022, when average nitrate concentrations in rivers and groundwaters were higher than in 2021.

Rivers with high phosphorus levels are associated with areas that have poorly draining soils. Phosphorous concentrations are too high in many areas but have generally stabilised in recent years.

In 2023, the EPA was asked to provide an additional assessment of water quality, known as the interim review. That review was carried out using the criteria and monitoring network specified in the European Commission's implementing decision. The aim of the Commission's assessment is to identify where water quality is polluted, at risk of pollution or showing stable or worsening trends with respect to both nitrate conditions and eutrophication. The EPA was required to assess changes in water quality between 2021 and 2022. Where waters meet the Commission's water quality criteria, the lands draining to those waters must be identified. These lands are shown in map 1, the red map, on page 28 of the report.

All the data underpinning our water quality monitoring report on nitrogen and phosphorus concentrations and our interim review come from the EPA's national water quality monitoring programme. Nutrients are analysed using standard methods in the EPA's accredited laboratories. The biological elements are assessed using methods that have been intercalibrated and approved at European level. In terms of frequency, nutrients are monitored up to 12 times per year at each monitoring station. The biological elements are monitored at a minimum of once every three years in each water body. All EPA water monitoring data are publicly available on catchments.ie and on our data and mapping portal.

The European Commission's implementing decision specifies that the data used for the assessment must be based on the nitrates directive monitoring network, which is the network used for reporting under that directive since 1991. The network is a subset of our full national water quality monitoring network, which is used for all other EPA reports. This means some areas with high numbers of derogation farms, and which may need to reduce nitrogen losses in waters, are not included on the red map because they do not have a monitoring station in the nitrates directive monitoring network.

The red map also includes areas that do not have many derogation farms. This is because the Commission criteria include an assessment of eutrophication.

In Ireland, both phosphorus and nitrogen play a role in eutrophication. Areas with excess nitrate and-or excess phosphorous levels leading to eutrophication are therefore included in the red map. This brings in water bodies that are impacted by agricultural run-off from all farming types, not just derogation farms.

To allow for the targeting of measures, we included an additional map, map 9 on page 21. This provides a more refined assessment insight into water quality in Ireland. In particular, it highlights where targeted measures to address nitrate, phosphorus and sediment losses are required as well as potential farm point source issues. This map is based on the full national monitoring network and includes the impact of all types of farming activity.

In summary, clean water is essential for our health and well-being, our economy and wildlife. The agricultural sector has an essential role to play in improving water quality. Targeted and substantial measures are required as a matter of urgency to reduce nutrient losses to water using the full suite of tools, from advice and incentives to a strengthened inspection regime.

Before I open the floor to questions from members, I will say that this is an extremely important report. It will be the basis for decisions that will be made as regards the agriculture industry. The compiling of the report, the way the statistics have been put together and the interpretation of those statistics will be extremely important. I have read the report. We are often guilty of not reading the documentation that comes before us but I have read and scrutinised this report.

The disclaimer the EPA has included at the start of the report makes me very uneasy. It states:

Although every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of the material contained in this publication, complete accuracy cannot be guaranteed. Neither the Environmental Protection Agency nor the author(s) accept any responsibility whatsoever for loss or damage occasioned, or claimed to have been occasioned, in part or in full as a consequence of any person acting or refraining from acting, as a result of a matter contained in this publication. All or part of this publication may be reproduced without further permission, provided the source is acknowledged.

As I said, this report will be the basis for arguments on derogation by our officials and Ministers in Brussels. We will see what the results of those arguments on derogation will be. Various further restrictions may be put in place as regards farming practice etc. Straight away, however, the EPA has stated that any inaccurate information in this report is not its responsibility. As I said, I have scrutinised this report. I will ask other questions later but I would like Dr. Cotter to comment on the disclaimer in the report, which is so important for our economy and water quality. How can the EPA stand over including this disclaimer at the start of the report?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That is a standard disclaimer we put in all our reports. The data underpinning this report come from our national water quality monitoring network. We monitor 3,000 water bodies on an annual basis. We have been seeing the outcomes of the methodology that has been set out by the European Commission. Our data and the trends we have been reporting over many years are consistent with the results that have come out on application of the Commission’s methodology and the criteria it has put in place. We are therefore absolutely confident that we have applied the methodology subscribed to by the Commission as it intends. We have used data that are scientifically robust. The report is also in line with the trends we have seen and have been reporting over many years in terms of our nitrate levels being too high. Some 40% of our rivers have nitrate levels that are too high and phosphorus levels are too high. We are more than happy and confident to stand over the scientific integrity of our report, as we are with all of our reports.

I thank Dr. Cotter. I will give each member ten minutes. We can then have a second round of questions, if necessary.

I welcome Dr. Cotter and her team. She kicked off nicely with the term "scientific integrity". I will be putting it to her that is not scientific and that its integrity is questionable. I will give some background. I have read the report in great detail. As the Chair said, I think this report has exercised many others. I have also read the IFA's submission on the validity of the two-year review in determining water quality trends and I think it needs some comments. I know representatives of the IFA are here and I have no doubt others are tuned in. I have a few comments and questions before I elaborate.

Balanced analysis of water quality data is required to formulate national policy. The EPA report will have a profound impact on agriculture. We need to take an holistic approach to agriculture. We talk about sustainability, profitability and viability in this industry. We have overarching policies and the EPA cannot operate an isolation from our overarching national policy. I would like Dr. Cotter to comment on that later.

It has been suggested to me that the EPA excluded sources of nutrients or contaminants in our waters other than agriculture. Will Dr. Cotter clarify the logic and scientific basis of that because that clearly has a major impact on the science of it? Let us face it, much of this is about science. That science needs to stack up and be validated. I am seriously concerned about that assertion and I put that to Dr. Cotter.

It has also been suggested to me that the EPA report focused on the winter monitoring results from estuaries and coasts. Such capture would, of course, include significant overflows. Dr. Cotter will be familiar with that in terms of our urban wastewater. I live in south County Dublin and our rivers are being constantly monitored for overflows from urban washing machines, misconnect fits and everything. We see detergents and everything in our streams and we see occasional fish kills. Therefore, we know there are these issues of concern. Does Dr. Cotter accept the contamination is not all from agriculture?

Clearly, we have the runoff from rainwater onto porous and not so porous land. Different conditions in different soils will impact on how porous it is and the runoff of water to that. Both have an impact in terms of penetration down or runoff across. Dr. Cotter will be mindful of the considerable Teagasc research which demonstrates that nitrate losses to water are caused by a multitude of factors. Given that a multitude of factors are involved, it is too easy to say it is just coming from agriculture.

I will not spend too much time talking about the measures farmers have used and adopted to protect the waters; Dr. Cotter knows them. They include increased training, enhanced slurry spreading requirements, diversion, planting margins and maintaining buffer zones. She is aware of all that good practice. I accept that farmers recognise there is considerable work to do. However, the common criticism I have heard about the report relates to the lag time. Dr. Cotter will be very familiar with it. Farmers have adopted emergency measures. The EPA is adjudicating on this particular period, but there is a lag time for all this to happen. Many measures have been put in place in the past 12 months. I and many committee members have seen some of these measures on the ground. Therefore, there is a lag time. Would it not have been more prudent to have taken a much longer term view or an interim view?

I was in Teagasc's Moorepark facility. One of the things that inspired me was the number of young farmers who were interested in new technologies and want to do the right thing. They want to be sustainable, but they also need to be profitable. That is a concern. We need to recognise that farmers need to maximise their competitiveness. They need to reduce their emissions. They want to protect their water courses. They want to improve the biodiversity on their farms but they also want a livelihood and that is the challenge for us in this committee. I think it is also a challenge for the EPA because we need to be responsible. We cannot take back words. The scientific validity and credibility of what the EPA puts out on paper has enormous impact.

Rightly, we should robustly examine the EPA to ascertain if it is fully confident that it can stand over further scrutiny of its report. I also want to ask if it is hopeful. Where is the hope? I want the EPA to hear that. I do not think it has acknowledged as well as it could the measures that have happened. I believe this is premature. There are knock-on effects and there is a lag time. We need to be clear about that lag time.

If agriculture, forestry and rural areas are to become more productive, resilient and sustainable, all of those involved in research, sciences and innovation must work together to provide farmers with expertise, assistance and encouragement. We are central to that as policymakers. I believe the EPA has a fundamental role in that too. It is not some sort of isolated body. It is a State agency doing important and valuable work. However, it also has a responsibility to the greater issue and the greater policy.

I would like Dr. Cotter to spend some time touching on some of those points. At the heart of this matter is the integrity of the EPA's scientific work, and how it can stand over that. I am not here to apologise for rural communities or farmers because I know they are doing their utmost to be compliant. They need assistance and validated research. Where the EPA has fallen down is that it has not given enough time to the lag period. I want that to be explained and I want to hear the rationale for it. I again thank Dr. Cotter and her team for being here.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I thank the Senator for that intervention. Scientific integrity is at the heart of what we are doing. The interim assessment we have produced is according to criteria set down by the Commission. There are four tests, which we can talk through in more detail. They are published in the Commission implementing decision, which was published last year. They were agreed between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the Commission as part of securing our derogation. Those are the criteria we followed to produce this interim review. The data underpinning this interim review come from a subset of our total national monitoring network. That network has been used to report under the nitrates directive since 1991. The sites, the design and the distribution of that subset of the total national network are in place in order that we pick up the impact of agriculture on water quality. That is as required by the nitrates directive. We see the impact of urban wastewater when we are looking at our total national water quality monitoring network. We report on the impact of wastewater on water bodies. They are impacting on approximately 200 water bodies.

For the purpose of this interim assessment, following the criteria set out by the Commission we are using the subset, which is a smaller network of 200 to 300 monitoring points. The time is also prescribed by the Commission. We were asked to look at the difference between 2021 and 2022. We have followed faithfully what has been prescribed by the Commission. As I have said, all of the data have been published and can be interrogated. Looking at the longer term trend, we are seeing that nitrate levels have increased since 2013 to a level that is now too high to support good water quality. We are seeing that in particular in the south and south east of the country. Nitrate levels are too high in 40% of rivers in the country . We bring together vast amounts of data in our assessment and analysis. When we start in the river, estuary or lake, we take a measurement. We analyse that sample in our laboratory. We see whether there is nitrate or phosphorous, and then we start working back to see what is happening in the area around that water body. What are the populations? What are the numbers and locations of septic tanks? Are there wastewater treatment plants? What is the level of treatment in those plants? What is the number of animals, their excretion rates and the soil type? We look at forestry and industry. We look at all of that information and use models that have been developed over many years, published and peer-reviewed to determine the source of the nutrient we are seeing in the water.

That is an assessment we do and we are then able to see where the main pressures are on our water bodies. We know that agriculture impacts 1,000 water bodies in the country. After that, it is physical modifications, such as drainage and channelisation, as well as wastewater, impacting about 200 water bodies in the country. We publish all that. We have charts that show the different pressures that we can make available to this committee if it would be helpful.

I think I covered most of the points.

I have a supplementary question. Was this report peer-reviewed?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

All of our monitoring data is peer-reviewed by the Commission.

I refer to the overall report in the context of the data being set. Remember, there is commentary being attached to this data; it is not all data. This report is significant and the outcome is particularly frightening for many on all sides of the debate. Was this independently peer-reviewed?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

First, it is all data and it is all published and there for anyone to scrutinise. It is being peer-reviewed by the Commission as we speak.

It is being peer-reviewed.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We completed the assessment, submitted it to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in June, which submitted it on to the Commission, and the Commission is peer-reviewing it.

Has it been independently peer-reviewed?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We completed it using the data that we produce in our water quality monitoring network.

That is the EPA.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes.

Has it been independently peer-reviewed outside of the EPA?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are an independent scientific organisation.

I know, but the EPA is not judge and jury on its own cause either. Has it been independently peer-reviewed externally outside of the EPA?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No. We produced it ourselves and it is being reviewed by the Commission.

But it has not been independently peer-reviewed.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We produced it ourselves.

I know. Dr. Cotter said that three times.

Dr. Cotter should answer the question. The question is straightforward. Has it been independently reviewed?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No, it has not gone out to a third party.

Okay. That is grand.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I note Dr. Cotter said the EPA goes by science. Is that correct?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Absolutely.

I saw the EPA going to court stating, with regard to peat bogs, that the whole bog was hydrologically connected. As Dr. Cotter is aware, when a case was brought in the past few weeks and the EPA was asked for the evidence and science of it, it had none to produce even though the EPA believes in science. An ordinary person had to spend large amounts of money to show hydrologically and ecologically that the bog was not connected. The EPA had nothing to counteract that. Does the EPA believe in science or its own theory?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We believe in science. The case I believe the Deputy is referring to is one we took in the District Court in relation to extraction of peat, and the charges were dismissed. The reason those charges were dismissed was that we did not reach the threshold required for a criminal conviction. It is not to suggest that we do not believe in science. In that case, we did not reach the threshold-----

But Dr. Cotter stated several times-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

If I could just finish, because the context is important. In that particular case, we did not reach the threshold required to secure a criminal conviction but we have had other successful prosecutions in the District Court in respect of the unlawful extraction of peat. We have had-----

The reason the EPA had-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We have secured injunctions in the High Court in respect of the unlawful extraction of peat and we have cases ongoing before the courts. I do not think it is accurate to connect our science with one particular case.

First of all, the problem is that the others unfortunately might not have had the large amounts of money that people are required to have in their arse pocket to spend on the science, hydrologically and ecologically, when they go into court to show what is needed. We did it on a private capacity with the national parks and it has been well verified and peer reviewed that they are not hydrologically connected. However, unfortunately, some people suffered at the EPA’s hands, even though it believes in the science. It had no science to give that day – that needs to be put on the record.

On water quality, how many rivers are there in Ireland?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We have 3,200 river water bodies.

Are all those monitored?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Of those, 2,800 are monitored.

When Dr. Deakin says the EPA is monitoring them, how often every year are samples taken of those 2,800?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We have different stations for different purposes.

The stations used in the interim assessment report we are speaking about are part of our surveillance network, which is our highest frequency monitoring. In rivers, for example, nutrient samples are taken monthly.

How many rivers are tested monthly?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

I will get the Deputy the precise numbers. For the purposes of this report, in the network that we used-----

No. Just tell me how many are done monthly. That is all I want to know. What is the figure again? Is it 3,200 or-----

Dr. Jenny Deakin

It is 3,200 rivers, of which 2,900 in total are monitored. That is all water bodies, however.

What is the reason the other 300 are not monitored? Can Dr. Deakin explain that?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We are not obliged under the water framework directive to monitor everything, everywhere all the time. All member state networks are designed to be representative. Ireland has one of the highest densities of monitoring networks among member states. With 38 monitoring stations covering 1,000 sq. km, we are second. We have a very high-density network.

How many did Dr. Deakin say were monitored monthly?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

For the river sites, 179 river water bodies are in what we call our surveillance network, which is our most frequently monitored network. That is monitored 12 times a year for nutrients and once every three years for biology, which are insects and fish.

I will ask Dr. Deakin to explain this to me because I want to get my head around it. Is it fair to say that the EPA puts the 179 river water bodies into what we will call tier 1? For what are they monitored 12 times a year?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

For the physical-chemical parameters, as we call them, which are nitrogen, phosphorous, etc.

Is there then a three-year test?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The three-year test is about the biological indicators, which are insects, fish and plants.

That relates to the 179 water bodies. Will Dr. Deakin tell me about the other 2,721?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The rest of them are in our operational network, as we call it. Within that network, we monitor nutrients four times a year. We look at biology at the same frequency, which is once every three years.

Is that for the 2,700?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

I will correct the record. I gave the Deputy the total number of all the water body types. If we are focusing on rivers, the number is 2,429 of the 3,200 that are monitored.

Some 2,400 are monitored.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Yes, 2,429 river water bodies are monitored.

To put it simply for people who are listening in, are 2,429 rivers monitored?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Yes.

It is just so people know because the term "water bodies" might put them off. Is it approximately 800 that are not monitored?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

That is right.

Is it fair to say that 179 of those are priority?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

They are in the surveillance network and are at the highest frequency.

Are they done monthly and three-yearly?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Yes.

Are the other 2,211 done four times a year?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

It is four times a year for nutrients and-----

Is that for the 2,200?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Yes. It is done once every three years for the biology in the same manner as that for those in tier 1, as the Deputy referred to them.

I will move on to the criteria that apply. I am involved in a group water scheme. Over a period of 20 years I have seen the level and threshold to comply with EU rules, and the different things that have to be tested for, go up. We have to comply with a higher EU standard now. Is that the same for the EPA?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The nitrates directive we are discussing has been in place since 1991. The standards have not changed in that regard.

The EPA is looking at the same thing. Is it fair to say - Senator Lombard raised this issue - that rivers have improved in areas where there is a high level of derogation? That is going by the figures we have seen.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Where is the Deputy talking about?

It is down south in Cork. What is the name of the area?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are very well aware of the-----

Given that there is a high rate of derogation in the area, how did the rivers improve if farmers are such culprits?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The Deputy is talking about Teagasc's agricultural catchments programme which measures over a limited area down in Timoleague. We are very aware of what they are doing there. Dr. Deakin sits on the steering committee of the programme and has been in good contact with Teagasc on this. Broadly, we are seeing the same trends in our monitoring in the region which is more extensive. We monitor over a much larger area compared to the agriculture catchment programme but broadly we are seeing the same trends except that Teagasc saw nitrate levels going down in 2022 and we do not see that. We saw them increase in 2022. We really need to understand what is happening in that programme. It is positive; we would really like to see the result replicated on a wider basis but as I say, we are not seeing it in our data. Hopefully it will continue into 2023. The practices in place in the catchment in the programme will be replicated throughout the area.

Unfortunately, we all know a lot of towns that do not have sewage treatment plants. There could be a river that meanders through farmland and forests. I know the EPA would be looking at the different water bodies. Can it distinguish between what comes out of a septic tank and the different types of nitrogen? Can it distinguish between those to a degree that is foolproof?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes we can.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That is right.

Right. Certain areas seemed to be high on phosphorous. What would the EPA put that down to?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The sources of phosphorous, on a national scale, are 50:50 from agriculture and from urban wastewater. The portion that comes from humans is mostly discharged around the coast. Some 40% of the State's urban wastewater is discharged via Ringsend in Dublin. The Deputy asked how, when we look at a particular river, we distinguish it. As Dr. Cotter said, we start with the actual water quality and the signatures in the water - we take the sample and see what is in it - and then we go back up to the catchment to figure out how many cows and people are there, where the trees are and what activities go on for each of the water bodies we assess. It is quite a robust, integrated scientific assessment. We use peer-reviewed models-----

How does the EPA know how many cows are in an area?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We get the data from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

From Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It gets the farmer's details

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We get the land parcel identification system, LPIS, data and the animal identification and movement, AIM, data under a data-sharing agreement.

Okay. Right. That is interesting. So on phosphorous, Dr. Deakin says the sources are 50:50.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

At a national scale it is 50:50.

At a national scale. Is there a huge problem? I would put it very differently. In areas where there are no sewage treatment plants and where raw sewage goes out into rivers, which is common in an awful lot of places in the west of Ireland, no one even comes near to take samples. Would the EPA agree with that?

Ms Mary Gurrie

The EPA is the regulator for Irish Water. There is about 1,000. The EPA has the licence for Uisce Éireann.

Hold on. If there is no septic tank or sewage treatment plant, how can the EPA or Uisce Éireann-----

Ms Mary Gurrie

Septic tanks are separate so there is a threshold-----

No, no. There are towns that do not have a sewage treatment plant. What happens then?

Ms Mary Gurrie

There are 26 towns and villages that are of sufficient size which are discharging raw sewage into the environment, which is totally unacceptable. The EPA has called that out.

There is way more. You could get 26 in County Galway.

Ms Mary Gurrie

They must be smaller agglomerations.

Yes, but we call it a town if there is a shop and a pub or whatever.

Ms Mary Gurrie

We are able to distinguish the-----

You will find large towns that have mixed sewers as well with storm waters and sewage. When my town gets heavy rain, the town floods and the treatment plant just opens its sluicegates and lets it straight into the River Suir.

Ms Mary Gurrie

Going back to our overall national assessment, we know that about 1,000 water bodies are impacted by agriculture, approximately 200 are impacted by wastewater and 160 or so are impacted by septic tanks and domestic systems. Where there is a problem with water quality, as Dr. Deakin and Dr. Cotter have explained, we can look at what the problem in that water body is and what is going on in that environment and catchment that could potentially be the source of that problem. As a State, we have problems with wastewater. We know where they are and there is a lot of investment happening through Uisce Éireann developments------

Is sewage generally the big problem? You can see the areas affected. You would nearly pick out the areas where there is no sewage treatment plant.

Ms Mary Gurrie

Yes, you can see that on a map if you look at areas where there are wastewater issues. If you look at the map on page 21 of our report, you can see the areas where agriculture and phosphorous are problems. Those areas are highlighted in blue. They are the areas where we have a problem with phosphorous. Our assessment tells us this is a result of agriculture. In a similar way to how you can pinpoint areas with wastewater issues, you can pinpoint-----

Could the committee get those assessments?

The Deputy is over time.

Ms Mary Gurrie

We publish all of our data.

All of the data are available to the committee.

Ms Mary Gurrie

All of the data are available.

I have one final question. If we are looking at 179 high-priority rivers rather than at 800 rivers, which is a third of the 2,400, how can we say anything with certainty? It is like looking at a herd of cattle and saying 16 of them are bad. How can the EPA say these things when it does not analyse all of the different places and when some are analysed only every three years? I know the witnesses will say this complies with what the EU has laid out. The analogy I would use is that, if you were on a water scheme and there was coliform present, if you scoured that system, you could get it out and you would then be perfect. However, it is actually non-compliant if one premises is affected by coliform. That is the problem. While the EPA is looking at 179 every month, the others are not monitored as tightly. How can the EPA prepare an accurate guide? At the moment, its document is to be the be all and end all in an application for a derogation that will be going to the European Commission. When you do stuff, it needs to be foolproof. The 179 are assessed 12 times a year while another 2,200 are assessed at longer intervals. You could hit a river one day and see that it is one way only for it to clear itself out. A river can clear itself. There are then 800 that are not looked at all. How can the EPA then say that a river is not favourable or less favourable? I have seen all of this in different scientific stuff. How can the EPA's work on such an important document that is to go to Europe be foolproof? How can the EPA stand over it? The first thing that should be done is that this document should be independently reviewed. How can the EPA stand over this when the lives of a lot of people are at risk?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The question the Deputy is asking is how do we know our water monitoring is representative of what is happening across the country. We have the second-highest density as regards the design and distribution of our sites across the country. That is regularly reviewed by the Commission under the water framework directive and under the nitrates directive. The Commission looks at this to make sure that every country's data are comparable and consistent so that, when one country is compared with another, each tells an accurate story as to what is happening. It runs to the heart of our monitoring that what we are seeing from our points around the country give us an accurate picture. We are monitoring 3,000 water bodies. That gives us an extremely dense network and an extremely high-quality picture of what is happening in the country. With regard to frequency, Dr. Deakin has outlined the frequency of our monitoring.

I would point out that we may miss something with regard to the biology. Something might be released and then wash through. The biology is a really important part of our monitoring. It tells us what is happening with regard to the life in the water, including macrophytes and algae. We look at that constantly.

That gives an integrated picture. If something is being polluted periodically or if there is a large episode, we will see it either through our nutrient - nitrogen and phosphorous - monitoring or through the biology. They will be aligned. The biology gives us the overall picture. The Deputy can be assured that this gives us a very high-quality picture as to what is happening in terms of water quality in Ireland from the range of parameters we measure.

I call Senator Lombard.

I welcome the witnesses and acknowledge their presence. It is really important for the agricultural community, and I know there is an awful lot of interest in the debate this afternoon.

Could Dr. Cotter start by clarifying the position regarding the information provided on page 21 of the report? Is it only agriculture on that map or does it include domestic and other sewage?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

This is the additional map we included in our report, which is based on our full national water quality monitoring programme. It gives an extra layer of information, in addition to what was requested by the Commission, showing where agriculture measures need to be targeted.

Only agriculture.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes.

Is it not a little unfair that it is only agriculture? Could the EPA not have not included, as Ms Gurrie says, the other 200 issues we have regarding domestic water?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Given that the report and the nitrates directive are focused on the impact of agriculture on waters in Ireland, we focused here on adding to what was provided in the first map - the red map, as it is known - and on giving more nuance and more information about what is required in the agriculture sector. This shows that the targeting of measures is important. We see the issue with nitrates in the south and the south east of the country, as indicated in orange - I hope members have the map printed in colour - with the phosphorous sediment issues arising elsewhere. Then the white areas show where we need to protect water quality. We have focused on agriculture because that is the purpose of the assessment, which is to report under the nitrates directive and the interim review supporting the derogation.

I do think there is an issue in that farmers feel they have been paying for every sin in the world. Would it be fair that, in due course, the EPA might provide us with the details of the 200 bodies of water that are under pressure from the point of view of water quality? The EPA might also provide a list of section 63s that have been issued by it to local authorities. Section 63s are notices that are issued by the EPA to local authorities in circumstances where there is a compliance issue. I do think there is acknowledgment here, for the people who are watching, that it is not the farming community that is fully to blame. We should broaden this debate out because there may be other actors, even State actors, that have an issue regarding water quality.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Absolutely. As regards the impact of wastewater, we can provide the committee with those water values that are under pressure and experiencing pressures from urban wastewater. We have a priority list in the EPA which takes that list and then focuses it down for Uisce Éireann into those plants that we want to see invested in as a matter of priority. There are 89 on that list. That has just been published and it is really to ensure that Uisce Éireann targets its investment and its resources to those areas in order that we achieve the environmental outcomes we want. We do not shy away from the impact wastewater has on our water bodies. It is important to say that, as a pressure, that has been declining over the years, in contrast to agriculture, which has been increasing.

A list of the section 63s issued would be very appropriate. It would show the work the EPA is doing from the point of view of enforcement to oblige local authorities or Uisce Éireann to make sure that water quality is up to standard. A list per county or by local authority area would give an indication of the good work the EPA is doing and make sure that it is not just having a crack off the agriculture industry, which it is not, but that it is an across-the-board affair.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Absolutely. As Ms Gurrie mentioned, we are the environmental regulator for Uisce Éireann. We have prosecuted it 28 times in total. We have concluded eight prosecutions this year, so, again-----

But there is probably more in the compliance notices - in the section 63s.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We can provide the committee with that additional information.

Are the witnesses happy with the way the report is laid out? Are they happy that the information given in the report is easy for the user to understand?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are. We make every effort to put our data in a way that is accessible for people.

What efforts has the EPA made to inform the public, farmers and communities about this report and how it works? Have there been seminars, public meetings or, for want of better terminology, engagements?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Our engagement with the public and interested stakeholders comes from our own publications. We publish our indicated report in July. In that, we use all of the data from our national monitoring network where we are looking at the main pressures in respect of agriculture or urban wastewater, as we have discussed. This particular interim review was produced for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We have not gone out to the public with this report.

Would it have been beneficial to have done so?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We went to the stakeholder group of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which is chaired by the Department, to present the findings towards the end of June. That was a long meeting to talk through what we are seeing and why, and what is driving different things. We are also making ourselves available for committee meetings such as this. We will continue to do that. This is an annexe to a report that was submitted to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which then provided it to the Commission. We produce such a report every year, although the annexe is new this year. We produce a report and submit it to the Department every year.

There was an open day in Moorepark a few weeks ago that was attended by thousands of dairy farmers. Their only questions were about this report and, specifically, about page 27, which contains the red map. That would have been a wonderful opportunity for the EPA to engage with the cohort of farmers who will be affected. That is my view. Will our guests explain page 27 of this report? It is the red map.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Ms Gurrie may wish to come in on that point.

I am asking about the famous red map. Please do not think I am being disrespectful, but it has created chaos. What it states is clear as mud. The EPA has put forward additional information that was not asked for by the Commission in an attempt to clarify matters but perhaps it has confused things even more. Will our guests please go over the information contained in the red map on page 27?

Ms Mary Gurrie

A useful starting point might be Article 12 of the Commission's decision, which set out the criteria for an interim review. It set two tests relating to nitrate standards and whether they are increasing over two years, and trophic levels, which are a measure of the nutrification and takes into account the nutrients and the biology. It considers which water bodies were impacted or polluted and whether there was a change between the two years.

Who set those criteria?

Ms Mary Gurrie

They were set by the Commission in its decision to grant the derogation to Ireland.

The EPA included additional information on the other map for clarity. It may be on page 21. Is the view of the EPA that the criteria set by the Commission was not appropriate? What is the view of our guests about how the EPA set those criteria?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Those criteria are well prescribed and quite specific in terms of what they want to see. We have produced the red map in accordance with those criteria.

In that case, why did the EPA produce the other map?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We did so to give additional information. The map required by the Commission is one map. We have produced additional information to feed into the assessment as it is ongoing.

Ms Mary Gurrie

The Commission set out two measures. It stated that for any areas identified as having nitrate problems or increasing nitrate levels, or trophic problems and increasing trophic levels, additional measures shall be taken to improve water quality and the cut in the stocking rate on derogation farms. Two measures were looked for by the Commission.

If I were to take the red map-----

Ms Mary Gurrie

The extra map produced by the EPA is useful in supporting any additional measures that may be required. For example, phosphorous measures in areas where they might be required.

Leitrim, where there are 3,000 cows and one farmer who has a derogation, is on the red map. If we were to get rid of every cow in Leitrim tomorrow morning, would Leitrim be off the red map?

Ms Mary Gurrie

Leitrim is covered on the red map because it either has a nitrates level that has increased, which is unlikely, or it has a water body that is trophic.

By that, I mean rivers, lakes or estuaries. We sometimes just think of estuaries as being trophic, but that is not the case. The trophic level applies to any water body, including rivers and lakes. Leitrim has been identified because there is a water body in Leitrim that is either newly trophic or is at risk of growing worse.

But this is about the nitrates action plan and how we are considering the issue.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

These are the criteria that were set by the Commission.

Is the EPA satisfied that the criteria will be effective in increasing our water quality?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Overall, a reduction in nitrogen loading will have an impact, particularly in those areas where there are freely draining soils. We see that from nitrate levels in the south and south east. That is why we have included the additional map. We know that, on their own, the criteria will not address all of the water quality issues we are seeing in Ireland. We will need to take more targeted measures, particularly on phosphorous levels. That is why we have provided the additional map.

Dr. Cotter can see how the farming community might look at this map and ask what it was about. We know the cattle stocking density in some areas. As Dr. Cotter rightly mentioned, there are freely draining soils in the south and south east. However, we are discussing the nitrates action plan and reducing nitrogen levels. If we were to reduce those levels in County Leitrim and a derogation farmer were to reduce his or her levels to 220 kg, would it have any impact on Leitrim?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I must point to the criteria set by the Commission, which looked at nitrate levels-----

Are the criteria-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

-----and eutrophication, which is driven in Ireland by nitrogen and phosphorous.

If eutrophication was not a part of the criteria set by the Commission, would Leitrim be a different colour?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I cannot answer that on the hoof. We had four tests-----

It is a fair question to ask, is it not?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Of course. They are all fair questions.

I would like to think so. Dr. Cotter can see where I am coming from. The confusion in the industry caused by the red map is amazing. The red map does not make sense. A Deputy from Mayo is present who will speak for that part of the world. I am not sure whether there are many derogation farmers there, yet half of Mayo is included in the map. The second element of the criteria set by the Commission has put half, if not two thirds, of this country into the red map. Is that a fair statement?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The Commission is looking at water quality overall, including high nitrogen levels and eutrophication owing to nitrogen. Solely focusing on nitrogen in derogation farms is probably where the confusion originates. The criteria that were set included nitrogen and eutrophication. Eutrophication is driven by both nitrogen and phosphorous, which is why we are seeing those parts of the country that the Senator called out-----

Dr. Cotter rightly referred to a sole focus on derogation farms producing nitrogen. Unfortunately, the recommendations largely affect them solely. I appreciate that the EPA had to add a second map it was not asked for in order to bring more clarity to the situation. If the EPA were to model this map, would it do so differently?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We have provided the additional map in order to give a more refined, sophisticated and nuanced look at what is required in the country overall in terms of water quality. By including that map, we are giving extra information that is predicated on our full water quality network.

Is that based on modelling?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No. Ultimately, it comes from monitoring data that we then-----

May I ask about the monitoring data and how the EPA operates the load? How is the load per river arrived at?

Ms Mary Gurrie

How do we tell what the source load coming into the river is?

Ms Mary Gurrie

That is the assessment we have described. We take a sample from an area where we see high nitrate or phosphorous levels or there is a problem with the biology and we look for possible sources of nitrogen in its catchment. We know cattle numbers, the number of septic tanks, whether there is forestry or peat and whether it is an urban area. We know what is happening, as there are a number of data sets that tell us what is going on in the area, and we then we can work out the source, for example, how much nitrogen is being produced by that number of cattle and what the emissions from septic tanks or wastewater treatment plants are.

Regarding cattle numbers in that modelling, we can define which is the derogation farm and the farm practices it has modified to adhere to the derogation. We are all aware of them – different fertiliser spreading methods, soiled water storage, etc.

We are all aware of different fertilisers spreading soiled water all the way through. When it comes to the modelling and looking at cow numbers, am I right in saying that the EPA is considering farmers who are both in and out of derogation?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No, we are not distinguishing between them. We are just looking at the number of different animals, whether that is sheep, pigs or whatever.

What is the point of having a derogation? I acknowledge the good work that the derogation farmers are doing. There has been a significant reduction in chemical nitrogen, there is a shorter spreading window and derogation farmers are using new technology in the spreading of slurry, as required by law. Looking at the load of a river, it would be worrying if the derogation farmers were not acknowledged for taking a slightly different approach.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are looking at nitrates in water bodies. That is what the EPA does. We are monitoring nutrient levels in water. We will capture the good work the Senator has highlighted in the monitoring, if it materialises into reduced nitrogen levels. We are not seeing overall reductions in nitrogen levels. In terms of the EPA's role in monitoring what is happening in water, it is not coming through in the data.

With respect, and I am not trying to be argumentative, if the derogation farmers are taking these all extra measures and that is not being acknowledged in the modelling, it would put into question the accuracy of the model. Otherwise, we could be dealing with a catchment where there is no farming derogation, everyone is using a splash plate and they are all using different forms of nitrogen. That would-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are getting mixed up between monitoring and modelling. In monitoring, we are taking samples out of rivers and looking at what is in the water. We are analysing the samples in the laboratories to look at nutrients, nitrogen and phosphorous. We are reporting that, as outlined on page 11 of the report. The members will note that in the south and south east, there are nitrate levels that are too high and that have been growing on an upward trend. There has been a 25% increase in the midlands and the eastern region, for example, over the period 2013 to 2022. That is real data from monitoring. It is the bread and butter of what we do. In terms of the measures and the additional map-----

What is the difference between the model? The model I am suggesting is that the work being done by derogation farmers be taken into consideration when looking at the number of cows within a catchment area. In the Timoleague area, that is taken into consideration. I will come back in later.

Dr. Cotter referenced figures showing a significant increase in nitrate levels. The graphs on page 6 of the report show that on a national basis, nitrogen concentration went from 14.1 mg to 14.6 mg in the period 2010 to 2022. There was an increase in the drought in 2018, but the figures clearly show that there is no trend of any increase in nitrate concentration in water nationally, in spite of a very significant increase in cow numbers. In her last response to Senator Lombard, Dr. Cotter said there has been a national deterioration in water quality. That is not correct. According to the EU's assessment of water quality, if water quality stays within a range of -1 to +1 over a three-year period, there is no discernible change in water quality. It is very clear, from the graph supplied by the EPA, that for the 12-year period from 2010 to 2022, the nitrogen concentration in Irish water did not change, even though there has been very significant increase in dairy cow numbers.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I am referring to the graphs on page 11.

I am referring to the graph on page 6, which shows that from 2010 to 2022, there has been 0.5 mg of a difference. That does not amount to a discernible trend in deterioration of water quality nitrates-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

In groundwater.

-----even though there has been a significant increase in cow numbers. In reply Senator Lombard, Dr. Cotter indicated that the national trend was on a seriously downward slope. The EPA's graphs do not show that.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Again, I am referring to the nitrate concentrations in rivers.

This is the nitrogen concentration nationally.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

In groundwater.

In groundwater.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I am talking about rivers.

Dr. Cotter gave an impression that water quality-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

It is on page 11.

Dr. Cotter gave an impression in her answer to Senator Lombard that there was a significant downward trend. If the EU examined that based on its own criteria, there would be no discernible change in water quality over a significant period in which cow numbers have increased dramatically.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I would like to-----

I have a few questions but I would also like clarification on a few things said to previous speakers, Senator Lombard and Senator Boyhan in particular. To pre-empt, I will ask a question on Dr. Cotter's answer to Senator Lombard regarding County Leitrim. We will again use as an example our good friends in County Leitrim where there is only one farmer in derogation. She said it was possibly included because there was an increased nitrates level. Will she clarify that? If the level has increased in EPA's modelling or previous testing, could it still be below the permissible or acceptable level, yet County Leitrim has been included in this red map by virtue of the EPA's conclusion, which is another matter on which I wish to follow up? Dr. Cotter spoke about peer review but will she clarify that point first? The EPA based the red map, in particular, the inclusion of County Leitrim in it, on an increase from the previous test. However, the increase may not be an issue because it may still be at a permissible level.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The parts of County Leitrim in the red map are there because the trophic condition of the surface waters there is not good. In other words, the biological health of the rivers in County Leitrim is not as it should be. Of the four criteria set out by the Commission, that was the one triggered in County Leitrim.

Dr. Cotter said it could have just increased. I am from County Westmeath, which is included in the red map. However, because we are the "lake county", there is an unbelievable amount of testing and sampling based on a tourism perspective and because people are swimming in the lakes. There does not seem to be an issue with any other testing body, yet we are included in this map. Will Dr. Cotter clarify what she said? Was the fact of an increase the criterion used by the EPA to include an area on the red map, albeit that the increase may or may not have brought the level over an acceptable threshold?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

To go back to the point I was making, we produced this assessment in line with Commission criteria. There are four tests, one of which concerns nitrate levels. In addition-----

When one looks at the nitrate level-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The second part of my answer is the important bit as it gets to the Senator's question. In addition to that, it examines waters that have the potential to be eutrophic. That is driven by nitrogen and phosphorous and brings in a larger area than one would expect if one solely examined nitrate levels.

Which of those, or was it both, puts a county on the red map?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Depending on where you are, it is a combination of one or more of those four tests.

Is there anywhere on that red map that could be on it just because there was an increase, albeit the increase may still not have put it over the critical level? The witness referred to the increase in nitrates. If one tested a river in County Leitrim last year or two years ago and there was X amount of nitrogen in it and one went back for this test and there was X + 0.1%, it is an increase, so it is included in the map, even though it is still within the limits. Is that the case?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

There are some areas that meet that criterion.

Basically, Dr. Deakin is saying there are areas on that red map that are not over and above an acceptable level of nitrates in water, but the level has increased from what it was previously. It is still below the threshold, yet it is in the red map. One farmer in County Leitrim could now be put out of business because of that.

Ms Mary Gurrie

The threshold the Commission set in its guidance for an increase is greater than 1 mg/l between reporting periods. That is the level we used. Any change that met that criterion of change or increase was if it was greater than 1 mg/l nitrate.

Yes, but it was an increase. If it is an increase-----

Ms Mary Gurrie

A tiny increase.

-----albeit that the level of nitrogen remains acceptable under the drinking water regulation, it is lobbed into the red map. In the EPA's conclusion, it is stated it is doing the report on behalf of the Department and the Commission, which will then sit down and thrash this out. I cannot see why, in the conclusion of one paragraph, the EPA just became judge and jury, stating that in the areas enclosed, there will be a reduction on 1 January from 250 kg N/ha to 220 kg N/ha.

If the EPA is doing the report on behalf of the Commission, it should let the Commission decide whether there are influencing factors or whether it interprets the EPA's report differently from how the EPA sees it, as some of us are here today.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

It is written in the Commission-implementing decision that on application of the criteria the Commission has set, areas that are brought into that map will have to reduce their nitrogen from 250 kg N/ha down to 220 kg N/ha.

As I said, the EPA is being judge, jury and executioner in that. If the EPA was commissioned by the Commission to do the report, should the EPA not have left the Commission - if they are the only people who are peer reviewing or having a look at this report other than the EPA - the option to have a viewpoint rather than telling it the outcome?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Ultimately, that is a decision between the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and the Commission.

I said I had a couple of issues. There is the peer review issue and the fact the EPA put this report together, the EPA has sent it out and it is a fait accompli. The Commission is not analysing the EPA's results. It is taking the report. It is analysing the EPA's report.

I will use our friend, the farmer in Leitrim, who may be put out of business as a farmer based on the fact he is red and Leitrim may not be even over the criteria. If he was a sportsperson, if he had a failed sample and if it was possible to put him out of the game he played or the sport he participated in, he would have recourse to the famous B sample but that is not an option here. There is no peer review of the EPA's decisions here. There is no B sample checking. I am not saying there is anything wrong with any of the EPA's tests but there will always be a question. When you have one person making a decision without consultation and without somebody getting a chance to test, as I said, let it be a B sample or something similar, or even the EPA sending them off to a second laboratory for a test, it will always be queried and questioned.

In answer to the Cathaoirleach, the EPA has its disclaimer which, Dr. Cotter states, is standard at the front, but its complete accuracy cannot be guaranteed. In a situation where complete accuracy cannot be guaranteed and we try to strive for perfection and accuracy, the easiest way is to get a second opinion or second sampling and at least have that backup information there that the EPA could stand over.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

It is standard for the EPA in all of the work we do that we report to the Commission and that it is interrogated and reviewed by the Commission. Be it greenhouse gas emissions, air quality, water quality or waste statistics, all our work is reviewed by the Commission. On the idea the that Commission will take our interim review, as the Senator said, at face value and will not do its own assessment of this, we will be accountable, if required. That is how we do all of our work. We are an independent scientific agency but there is oversight and reviews of all of our assessments that are reported to the Commission.

If I, the Commission or anybody, decided to query some of the results, is there such a thing as a B sample available or is it tested, for example, in April 2021, and then discarded so it can never be replaced? Is there the potential for the EPA to provide me with something similar to what in sports is called the B sample.

Ms Mary Gurrie

All our sampling and monitoring comes into accredited laboratories. Every sample is robustly tested in accordance with standard procedures. The EPA has independently-accredited laboratories. There are quality checks. There are blanks. There is testing and all-the-time external auditing to make sure the sample results are as accurate as can be and are representative. We participate in, and actually run, an intercalibration scheme for different laboratories to make sure. We send out blind samples and ask whether everyone is getting the same answer. If one is not, one has to go and look at it. There is always that test of whether this make sense. There is not a whole set of separate river samples to be kept for testing but there are multiple samples every year. None of the data in this report for 2022 is a surprise in terms of what has been happening with nitrates and phosphates in our rivers that we have been monitoring for years but the output from our laboratories, our data and our biological samples are scrutinised robustly in Europe because they want a level playing pitch in terms of member states reporting on their water quality. As we said, we would absolutely stand over the quality of our data that is produced from our reports.

Why does the EPA take 25 mg/l of nitrate in groundwater to be a cause of concern when it is established in the drinking water regulation at a value of 50 mg/l?

Ms Mary Gurrie

That is just a reporting threshold. It is an indicator. If you hit 25 mg/l in groundwater, it is a sign that you have polluted groundwater. It is way above natural levels.

It is not used as a standard. It is not used, other than in the reporting, as an indicator that levels are getting high.

That is going back to my friends in Leitrim. The EPA says that if they hit 25 mg it is seen as a red flag-----

Ms Mary Gurrie

No, it is not.

-----although 50 mg is acceptable. They are on the red map because it has risen to a level that the EPA has decided is a red flag.

Ms Mary Gurrie

On the red map, the indicator is whether there are high nitrate levels, above 50 mg. We only have a small number of groundwater bodies, thankfully, that are at those levels, which is for drinking water-----

There are only 6%, roughly, that are over 37.5 mg-----

Ms Mary Gurrie

To protect drinking water-----

-----and 50 mg is acceptable.

Ms Mary Gurrie

For drinking water.

This report is more based on trends than on actual issues and problems.

Ms Mary Gurrie

No, it is not.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I think what the Senator is focusing on are the standards associated with drinking water quality. This is about the ecological health of our water. We know that nitrates levels need to be much lower than the standards for drinking water. Our assessment shows that nitrate levels in rivers need to be about 8 mg per litre. The Senator is quoting higher values, which are set to protect drinking water quality. This is bringing in the ecological health of our waters.

A lot of it is based on trends and modelling.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Sorry-----

You said to Senator Boyhan-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Can I just come back on that?

In a second because this is tied into it. Dr. Cotter, in response to Senator Boyhan, voluntarily offered to forward additional information with regard to urban wastewater and other pollutants outside agriculture to the committee. Does she not think she should have done that anyway, and should also send that to the Commission? The EPA had its brief but it stuck very rigidly to it.

I have two fields that have road frontage. A stream runs through the two of them that is perpendicular to the road. I have two acres and have been funded for keeping the cattle out of those, putting in a pump and getting the water out. I have done everything by the book. All the wash from the road is feeding into the same stream, right at my hedge. It might be roadkill, rubber or oil after a dry spell. If my farm is under the microscope here with regard to the quality of that stream or river, does Dr. Cotter not think the Commission should know that when there is a downpour of rain, water gushes into that stream off a road that may have been dry for a month? As I said, there is rubber, oil and roadkill - you name it. Does the Commission not deserve to view that as well, to give me half a chance of survival here?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Regarding the criteria and how we have assessed it, all the data are available on our website about the tests that are applied to meet the Commission's criteria for this interim review. All are available for anyone to look at and interrogate. It is all very much based on the application of those tests. It is very hard to move outside them. They are very tightly prescribed by the Commission. For the level of trends and interpretation the Senator is suggesting, all of it can be interrogated online. The Senator is talking about his particular example and situation. We have seen nitrate levels increase since 2012 or 2013 and 40% of our rivers are now at a level that is too high to sustain good ecological health. We do see some stabilisation of phosphorous but it is still at levels that are too high. Some 20% of our rivers and 36% of our lakes have phosphorous levels that are too high. None of this is a surprise. None of this is information that has just emerged in the last six months or a year. We have been highlighting the issue with nitrates, particularly in the south and south east of the country, over the last ten or 12 years.

Nobody is arguing with the figures but the EPA is not showing the whole picture with regard to the cause of the figures.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That is the last point I wanted to make. We did submit the additional map showing the targeted measures to the Commission. That is in our report that went to the agriculture committee at the end of June and which was submitted to the Commission. We have provided a map as required by the Commission and we have provided additional information to show where we think those measures need to be targeted, based on the full water quality network and all the information we have to give that more refined look. I do not understand-----

That was based on the terms of the Commission.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No.

The EPA sent the recommendations based on agriculture only.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes, based on agriculture.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes.

In that case, if my neighbour is going up the road and a bag of nitrogen bursts accidentally and a downpour washes it into the river, Dr. Cotter is basically saying that had to come from something I did in the field and not something that happened on the road.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Again, we are looking at these trends over a long period of time. These are not one-off issues we are seeing in a particular year. We have seen nitrate levels increase since 2012-13 to quite high levels now.

The EPA is specifically concentrating on agriculture in everything it has done.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

For the purposes of reporting, yes. Under the nitrates directive, that is what we do. As to our full water quality reports, we published an indicators report in July and we had a full three-year assessment published last October which looks at all the pressures on water quality around the country. We can see that agriculture impacts on 1,000 water bodies. We are also looking at physical modifications such as drainage, channelisation, physical structures and how they impact on water quality. Then there is urban wastewater and forestry. Those are all included in our full assessment. For the purposes of the nitrates directive, that is what we are focusing on.

I welcome the witnesses. It has been said of the water quality monitoring report the EPA has done that the agency concludes that the average nitrates concentration has increased since 2012-13. Claims have been made that this is not supported by any data. How has the EPA reached its conclusion if the data do not exist? Dr. Cotter spoke about trends and so on but data should be used here across the board. Is the report based on data or are there data missing here that we should know about?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The trends on nitrates and all nutrients, and our water quality overall, are based on actual data, so that is samples we take out of our rivers, lakes and estuaries. We analyse those in our laboratories, which are all accredited. All the information we put out about nutrient levels and the trends we are seeing is based on real-world data.

Has the agency provided statistical evidence to demonstrate the trends are increasing?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Absolutely. I referred to this earlier with respect to rivers. In figure 5, we can see the trend from 2010 to 2022 for nitrates nationally. We have then broken it down by region. The south-east region, midlands and eastern regions are where I referred to there being a 25% increase between 2013 and 2025. Then there are the south-west, western and Border regions. We show the picture nationally and then break it down regionally. That is all based on samples taken out of water bodies and analysed in our laboratories.

To come back to what other members have said, the EPA excludes all references to other sources of nutrients in our water. Senator Paul Daly has just given examples. The data should include potentially significant other sources. The Chairman mentioned what was going into the River Suir. Golden is a village in my area - it also in the Chairman's area - that is not referenced in any of the EPA's reports. In winter we have heavy rain in an awful lot of places around the country. Why are they excluded?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

They are not excluded. Once we take the measurement from a river, lake or estuary and analyse it to see what the level of nutrients is in that sample, we then work backwards. We look at the particular water body and then at what is happening in that particular area. If we take a river or lake anywhere, we are looking at what the population is, the number of people in that area, the number and location of septic tanks, whether there is an urban wastewater plant in the area and what is the level of treatment, what is the number of cows in the area and their excretion rates and we also look at forestry and industry. We look at the full picture of what is happening in that local area and, from there, we determine what are the main sources of the nutrients we have measured in the water. We do not exclude anything and we publish the main pressures on water bodies in Ireland. We can make that available to the committee. I referred to that earlier. We see agriculture impacting about 1,000 water bodies but it is not the only pressure in the country.

We are seeing pressure from physical modifications, from urban wastewater which impacts 208 water bodies, as well as forestry. We can provide that graph to the committee, if it is helpful.

Our weather patterns have changed very significantly since 2012 and 2013. The Cathaoirleach has given our witnesses an example in Thurles and I have given one in Golden, which are 12 miles apart, where torrential rains are causing problems for the River Suir. The statistics in 2012 and 2013 would be completely different from what they are now. How is that calibrated with the EPA?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

When we take our water quality samples, we also measure flows around the country. We have a fairly dense network of flow monitoring stations where we can multiply the concentrations we get from the samples by the flows, to give us the loads. Separately, we also look at the loads to the marine environment. That would be one of the indicators in the report we published in the middle of June entitled Water Quality in 2022 - An Indicators Report. We take the flows into account when we are giving our overall picture.

The EPA report will form the basis for the European Commission if it decides to reduce the stocking rates on farms. If the contents of the red map are submitted, there is a big likelihood the stock rates will be reduced. All the organisations we have spoken to are critical of that said red map. They prefer the more detailed map 9. Why ignore that map when all those who know best, especially our farmers, believe map 9 is more informative and is more useful to the landowners? Why are we going with map 1 instead of map 9?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We produced map 9 and included it in our report that we submitted to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The report is being submitted on to the Commission. We are not in any way ignoring map 9. We believe it is important information and that is why we produced and included it. We believe both maps should be looked at together.

On a professional level with regard to the EPA, and without reference to the European Commission, which data, as inferred by the targeted measures map and the red map, are, from the point of view of the EPA, more useful in identifying the problems and in determining the actions which need to be taken here?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Both maps need to be looked at. The red map, as we have been referring to it, was produced in accordance with the Commission's criteria. We provided additional information in map 9 to show where those measures need to be targeted. Both maps very much need to be looked with regard to the assessment, together with our other monitoring data and reports, which we have produced over many years, on nutrient, nitrate and phosphorus levels, and where different parts of the country are being impacted with regard to water quality.

The IFA will be appearing before the committee later and it has estimated that the loss to the rural economy is likely to be approximately €236 million to €240 million. That will have an impact on family farms and will be much more devastating. It is imperative that we use all of the data that is available. What seems to be the problem is that the EPA's reports are ignoring the contribution wastewater, the treatment plants, and other factors are making to the decline of the status of the water we have. Can the EPA assure us that problem will not continue?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We do not ignore the impact of other pressures on water. We are looking at all the pressures on our water and have done so over many years. We can provide the committee with the assessment which looks at the number of water bodies that have been impacted by not only agriculture but also by physical changes and by urban wastewater. We are looking at this in its entirety and at where the pressures are in our quality, all of which will need to be addressed if we are to reverse the trends we are seeing in deteriorating water quality in the country.

More than 30 measures have been included in the Nitrates Directive since 2018.

They need to be given time to demonstrate that there are improvements and it comes back to this lag in time. In the witnesses' opinion, how much time should be given to get a correct reading over a space of time rather than the 12-month period that seems to be happening here? Would it take two or three years to get a correct reading in an area?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Where measures are being implemented and where they will have a positive impact, we will see these coming through in the data within about 12 months. If we think of the period of drought in 2018 and the associated farming practices which went with it at that time when we saw a lot of fertiliser being applied to the land, that came through in our monitoring data in autumn 2018 and spring 2019. Conversely, where positive measures are put in place, we expect to be able to see those results in the monitoring data within a 12-month period. However, it is important to say we have not seen those trends up to now. As I say, nitrates have been trending upwards over recent years and we saw an increase again in 2022.

First, I welcome the guests. They have been very busy for the last hour or so. The EPA is a necessary evil because we need it to make sure we have good quality water in the country and that is very important. As the old saying goes, it is only when the well runs dry that people start looking. When we have alerts for water quality and everything else, then people are asking questions such as why this is happening. At the beginning of the report, the EPA said there were improvements overall but also that the report was negative. Will the witnesses explain that? There were improvements in certain areas, but in the overall report, it was said there was a decline in water quality. Will they explain that?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I believe what the Deputy is referring to is the Water Quality in 2022: An Indicators Report, which we published in July. What we saw there was the biology improving in some areas but declining in other areas. What I always think of is that we are running fast to stand still. We see improvements happening in some areas and we see declines in other areas that is offsetting these improvements. In that case we saw a net improvement of seven water bodies. This is very small and nowhere near what we need to see in terms of overall improvements in the biology. By biology, we mean we are looking at algae, plants, species in the water and the nutrient levels, and we have seen an increase in 2022 in nitrate levels in all areas around the country.

Regarding the criteria of the European Commission used across Europe, I find with many of the EU directives that come into Ireland, the Government insists we go further than the rest of Europe. Regarding the European Commission, the rules and regulations being used, and the criteria the EPA has to use, is the level higher than other European countries, is it the same, or what is it?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

In terms of the criteria the European Commission has set to produce the interim review, we have followed those criteria as set out in the Commission's implementing decision. As I was saying earlier, these are very tightly prescribed. We follow them as they are written. All those data and the application of those tests is published as well online.

Many agencies have responsibility for water quality, from the local authorities to the EPA, the fisheries boards and such agencies, and even forestry and Government itself. The thinking from Europe seems to be that farming is creating a big difficulty, we do not need it, and do everything we can to put farms out of business. That is the way farmers think, particularly in my area. I feel this message is coming not from the EPA but from Europe. As was said by previous speakers, we have some fine quality young people who have come into farming. These people are very much environmentally friendly. They are probably more environmentally friendly than the Department itself, yet the rules and regulations that are coming in make it more difficult for them to actually farm. Every time they seem to make improvements and do it in an environmentally friendly way, it is still not enough for Europe or for the Department. We seem to be more severe on farmers than we are on local authorities, on State agencies, on forestry, and everybody else. Will Dr. Cotter comment on that?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We need as many young farmers in the agriculture sector and in farming as we can get. With regard to adopting good practices, I know there are good examples right around the country and we have all heard of them. We do not target any one particular sector. The EPA is an independent organisation and we are looking at our data on a completely independent scientific basis. We have talked extensively about our analysis and the impact farming has had. We are also the environmental regulator for Uisce Éireann. We have taken prosecutions against Uisce Éireann where warranted - 28 in total - and we are auditing and reviewing Uisce Éireann’s planned wastewater treatment plants on a regular basis all year round. We also have an enhanced role that was given to us under the nitrates action programme in terms of developing a national agricultural inspections programme to direct local authorities with regard to their farm inspections. This involves providing guidance and support, and ensuring that the focus on enforcement is there as well.

We need farmers as part of the solution. We need farmers to be engaged in this. They need to be supported in terms of guidance and incentives, and for those who do not comply, enforcement also has a role. We do not work in terms of targeting any particular sector. We are driven very much by what we see in the environment.

Dr. Cotter spoke about enforcement and she said that the EPA brought Irish Water to the courts. If the witnesses do not have the information now, they might send it on to me, but how many prosecutions have there been in the last two years or how many cases has the EPA brought to the courts? How many have involved farmers and how many have involved local authorities, fishery boards or forestry bodies? Can the witnesses answer that or get the information for me?

Ms Mary Gurrie

The local authorities are responsible for the inspections of farms under the good agricultural practice regulation, so they are the competent authority for undertaking the inspections and any follow-up compliance. People can be cross-reported with regard to cross-compliance and it can go as far as prosecution, where it is necessary. The number of prosecutions of farmers is low, and I think there might only be one or a small number completed. Inland Fisheries Ireland can also take prosecutions where there is a fish kill or something on the severe end of the scale in terms of damage to a water body. I do not have data with regard to the number of prosecutions it has taken but I am sure it would be able to provide that.

Who does the inspections? Is it the local authorities?

Ms Mary Gurrie

The local authorities do most of the farm inspections under the good agricultural practice regulation and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine also does a certain level of what are called derogation inspections.

It is very difficult for them to bring prosecutions when they are the biggest offenders themselves. With regard to Newport, to be fair to the EPA, it cited the issue of wastewater given what is happening at the new treatment plant there. In Westport and Belmullet, where new treatment plants were put in during recent years, the quality of water has improved, particularly on beaches and at swimming areas. In general, water quality has improved because a treatment plant makes a lot of difference.

I find that the local authorities, not just for farms but even for rural houses, grant planning permission and then go out and examine septic tanks that have been there for 20 or 30 years, but they only go out if a complaint is made. If they find a problem that might cost €15,000 or €20,000 to resolve, they will not give people a grant because they are not in a catchment area where that can be grant-aided. The EPA should be making observations, although I know that is not its job. Some type of grant should be made available if there is a problem that needs to be dealt with. It is very unfair to see people who already have a mortgage and are struggling to live, and the next thing, the local authority comes out and examines their septic tank and finds there is a very serious difficulty, but there is no grant, help or support for them.

Overall, with regard to the EPA, we need to have people there to make sure the water quality is good but we need fairness in the system as well. I know the EPA tries to be fair. However, I want to know if industry is also examined, given the water quality coming out of much of the industry in this country.

Do they get the same examination as farmers do? I often wonder about some of these industries. In the case of one in north Mayo - I will not name it because it is not here to defend itself - it cost the local authorities and the State a lot of money to clean up the major mess it left behind. How that was ever allowed to happen in the first place, I do not know, but it happened. The company pulled out and left behind a mess. Do farmers get more inspections than businesses, the local authorities, Inland Fisheries Ireland and everybody else?

Ms Mary Gurrie

I do not have the exact number. I think there were about 2,000 farm inspections overall out of approximately 130,000 farmers. That is my understanding. The EPA licenses the large industrial and waste facilities, of which we have about 800. I will use approximate numbers because I do not have the exact figures to hand.

Ms Mary Gurrie

It is in or around 800, which covers some of the intensive agriculture sites, pharmaceuticals, power stations, waste facilities and landfills. We have an inspection and enforcement regime and we take sanctions, where necessary, from issuing compliance notices up to and including prosecutions. Every quarter, we publish what is called a priority sites list, which is a list of the worst performers. It is a kind of name-and-shame approach but it is also to encourage compliance. It has been very successful in getting companies to invest in advance, put in the measures required to get themselves off the list or take action and make investments to improve their compliance. There is a lot of focus on the industrial sites. They get inspected regularly and they have to comply with a licence as well.

Everybody has a role to play in water quality. The highlight and focus today is agriculture because of the report and the Commission's requirements, but there are a range of pressures on water quality. All of them - septic tanks, wastewater, forestry, peat and the full spectrum of urban area run-offs - will need to be addressed in order to improve our water quality.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

To add to that, the Deputy has made a good point, on which we have not dwelled enough at this meeting, namely, the value of clean water. We know it is important for our health, with regard to the water we drink and food preparation, and as an input to industrial processing, including the agrifood industry. Farmers need clean water. It is also an integral part of our tourism industry. We cannot lose the clean waters we have in this country. Time and again, Fáilte Ireland reports that people come to this country because of the clean, unspoiled environment. The trends we have seen in the last number of years have been going in the wrong direction. We must reverse those trends and deal with, as Ms Gurrie said, all sources of water pollution so that we get, have, hold and maintain good water quality in the country.

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to contribute. I am not a member of the committee, so I appreciate that opportunity, as I do the work of the EPA. I have been reading the EPA's reports for over 20 years. Going right back, I remember the 1999 environmental indicators report. It was one of those reports that made me sit up and say that something needs to be done about the degradation of our environment, in particular, water quality. The EPA's reports over the last 20 years have been based on science and have followed a methodology. They have been consistent, and the EPA has been taking samples in the same places and rivers for many years. The names of the researchers who have done these reports for the EPA are very familiar to me because I used many of the their reports while researching my thesis on the impacts of development on water quality back in 2003. It is 20 years since I started that thesis and longer again since I started reading the reports. The one thing that stands out is that for the past 20 or 25 years, the same factors have been reported as being the impacts on water quality. They are diffuse-source pollution from agriculture and point-source pollution from wastewater treatment plants. As much as people do not like science and criticise scientists when a message comes out that does not suit their narrative, we have to respect science. One can have different views on actions that need to be taken, but we need to respect science and the fact that the EPA is an independent organisation tasked with testing water quality and producing these reports for us.

In looking at impacts on water quality, we know there are wastewater treatment discharges, agricultural run-offs, slurries, wastes, etc.

I consider the end user of that water because we extract that water and use it as drinking water, whether from our lakes or groundwater or our rivers. There are significant human health impacts from damaging our water quality, apart from the impacts on biodiversity and nature. Some people will say, "We want to protect nature but we are not interested in taking actions on it." Let us ignore nature and biodiversity for the moment and take it right down to human health. What is the impact on human health of excessive nitrates in water?

Ms Mary Gurrie

The threshold in the nitrates rate throughout Europe is 50 mg/l of nitrate. Levels above that are considered a health risk and people should not drink it. We have one site, one of the groundwater bodies where the level is exceeded and there is treatment at the drinking water plant for that. It is a particular risk to young babies. I cannot remember the name of the illness, where it knocks out the oxygen in the body; it is called blue baby syndrome.

I remember the name but it is very hard to pronounce.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Dr. Deakin might know it off the top of her head but it is a health risk.

We have seen this trend where nitrates are in water. This is not a once-off test. This is not like going out and taking a water sample and testing it in a laboratory and saying, "There is a high level of nitrates here." We have seen this trend over the years and we can correlate those trends back to activities that happened in the catchment and contributed to the water quality. That is essentially what EPA reports have been saying for the past 25 years or so.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Absolutely. We have covered this in previous questions but it is good to be able to state it again. We have seen these trends in increasing nitrates going back to 2012 and 2013. Nitrate levels have been increasing, in particular in the south and the south east. There is no surprise in this. The State of the Environment report is a flagship publication that we put out on the state of Ireland's environment every four years. If we go back to our 2012 report, which is 11 years ago, at that point we were calling out high nitrate levels, in particular pointing out the issues in the Argideen Estuary in terms of nitrate coming from agricultural sources. These are trends that we have seen over many years. As well as the trends we have seen, the nitrate levels are too high to support good water quality around the country.

There is a health implication from nitrates. The evidence we see there is a connection back to agricultural run-off. What is the nature of the agricultural run-off that contributes to nitrates? Will the witnesses explain to people who might be listening and who might not be as familiar with the expertise that is in the room here? Would that be slurries, animal wastes, excessive use of nitrogen-based fertilisers and that kind of thing?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

It is excess nitrogen from farm practice, particularly in the freely draining setting, which is highest risk setting. The excess surplus leeches down through soils into the groundwater, then into the rivers and then off down to the estuaries.

Is it that certain soils, therefore, do not leech as much nitrates but free-flowing soils, especially where there are high volumes of cattle are a problem?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Yes.

That is a problem. That is highlighted on the map.

Will Dr. Deakin just explain to me how phosphates get into our rivers and estuaries? What are the health implications of phosphates?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Phosphates are a slightly different story. The risky areas in the landscape for phosphates are poorly draining soils and the phosphate runs off over land often bound with sediment and gets into our streams, rivers and lakes. When our phosphorus is in that environment and the levels are too high, and it only takes a very low amount of phosphorus to cause a biological response, but when we get that biological response, it can lead to algal blooms, which have impacts on swimmers. There have been some reports of illnesses in dogs and the like from toxic algae that they can develop.

When there are high phosphate levels we end up with eutrophied water systems that have the oxygen drained out of them. What is the impact that can have on that water when taken into a drinking water plant? Does a high level of phosphate impact on the process and the quality of the drinking water from that plant?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

It adds to the treatment cost of fixing that water to get it up to standard.

Ms Mary Gurrie

High levels of sediment can also be associated with that overground flow. It can cause a lot of sediment and that can impact on the drinking water treatment plant as well. The effect may be a higher risk of bacterial contamination.

There is a potential that the plant may not operate as effectively as one would like in those circumstances.

I will just go back to nitrates. We often hear about E. coli. E. coli coliforms are everywhere but there is a particular strain of which indicates animal or human waste from the internal guts of animals or humans. How does that end up in our water systems? What is the human health implication of E. coli?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

All of the results we have spoken about look at ecological health. E. coli and fecal coliforms arise from the manure of animals and also from human sewage. We track these in the context of bathing water quality and we also monitor drinking water. The water for our drinking supply is of very high quality. Our public drinking water is to a very high standard. It is tested for E. coli and other coliforms. With regard to fecal bacteria, we also have very good quality bathing water in the country. The assessments we are talking about today are really looking at the ecological health such as what is happening to the plant species and the habitats, and looking at the impact of nutrients on the ecological and biological health of our waters, which is so important in supporting the rich biodiversity we have in our rivers, our lakes, and our estuaries around the country.

Of course, one cannot separate human health from having a properly balanced and properly performing ecosystem. When there are damaged systems, it impacts on the aquatic ecology and the entire ecological food chain.

We have discussed wastewater treatment plants today. Does Uisce Éireann set out all of the wastewater treatment plants for which it is responsible, the measures that are needed and the investment required to bring them up to discharge standards?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The EPA wants to see investment targeted at particular wastewater treatment areas and plants that are deficient when it comes to treating wastewater. We have a priority list of 90 plants where we want Uisce Éireann dedicate its capital investment to reduce the impact on our waters. As we have already discussed, we see wastewater impacting on just over 200 water bodies. That number has been coming down as a result of ongoing investment. The number is 208, which is a significant number. The focus needs to be maintained in order to reduce the impact. At the current rate of investment, this will take decades to address.

I suppose Irish Water is very much dependent on centralised funding because it has no capacity to generate income from private use.

On drinking water supplies and trihalomethanes, THMs, issues, from where do the organic loadings that react with chlorine come into the water supply?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We do see organic material come in from drained peatlands. It is particularly common where we have peatland soils. There are quite a number of peatland areas throughout the country, as the committee will have discussed at previous meetings. When peatland is drained, dissolved organic matter goes into the water column and reacts with chlorine to create THMs, which are a public health issue.

They are potentially cancerous.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

That is right

If we start to address the drying out of some of those peaty soils that have been excessively drained, we could reduce the organic loadings going into our water supplies and have a very positive effect in respect of THMs.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We have looked at the overall impact of the main pressures on water bodies throughout the country.

Agriculture, physical changes, wastewater and peat extraction also have an impact on our water bodies. Approximately 100 water bodies are experiencing peat extraction as a significant pressure. Therefore, anything that helps in terms of reducing the illegal extraction of peat and making sure that those peaty soils are drained or rewetted, or even that the water table is raised, is likely to bring benefits in terms of water quality, greenhouse gas emissions and air quality. Those positive impacts from an environmental perspective are well documented.

Okay. That is the general overall health of our ecology and our human health. I know I am concentrating on the end user when we drink that water. It is, however, important to acknowledge that and look at it holistically.

Deputy Matthews is over time.

That is great, Chair. I was just going to ask one more question. Is the reporting for the Commission a fairly standardised form of reporting that would be carried out in most European countries? Does the Commission set that out for the EPA?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Which reporting? Under the nitrates-----

Yes, the nitrates. I am referring back to the report. Appendix 1 - Copy of Article 12 of the Commission Implementing Decision begins, "The competent authorities shall submit ..." and continues from there. The EPA does not decide how it is going to test water. Water testing and reporting is a fairly standardised procedure.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes. We have been reporting. The nitrates directive has been in place since 1991. Our main role in that is producing annual reports that we submit to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine every year. We have four yearly reports as well. The annexe is a new requirement that has just come in this year. There are four criteria that have been set out by the Commission, which we have followed, and they are very tightly prescribed in terms of how we go about doing that. It is something on which we have been reporting under the nitrates directive but annexe 1 is the new requirement this year, which was agreed between the Commission and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine as part of securing the nitrates derogation.

I thank Dr. Cotter very much. I encourage her to please keep carrying out the work she is doing. It is critically important that we have good scientific evidence to work out our policies and the actions we should take.

I call Senator Lombard.

I will start with the scientific evidence. Deputy Matthews made a really interesting point. I will take Dr. Cotter to my part of the world to a place in west Cork called Timoleague and the catchment below there. Could Dr. Cotter explain to me how often the EPA tests water in bodies of water that are part of this programme?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Dr. Deakin talked us through this earlier. We are testing up to 12 times a year in terms of nutrient levels, such as nitrogen and phosphorus, and once every three years in terms of the biological quality.

For the people who are watching, as Deputy Matthews mentioned, how many times or how often is the water tested in the catchment in Timoleague? That is a really important experiment that has worked really well for the last 14 years.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The Teagasc agriculture catchments programme covers a smaller area. Measurements are taken every ten minutes. It takes highly frequent measurements over a much smaller area compared to the EPA. The comparison is interesting just to see the difference in what we are talking about. It covers a set area and takes measurements every ten minutes, whereas our measurements in the Timoleague area are over a land mass which is larger by a factor of ten. We take those measurements 12 times a year in terms of the nutrients along the river and in the estuary, and once every three years in terms of the biology.

Teagasc tests the water 52,000 times a year. For every one measurement the EPA takes, it takes 4,368. This catchment has more than 2,500 cows in the catchment area. It is probably the most densely populated cow herd area in Ireland, although I am open to correction. Teagasc's records are slightly different from the EPA's, as Dr. Cotter stated. The nitrate levels in that catchment area, which sees an exceptional density, are tested every ten minutes. The results, which are based on science, are coming back to say that the reductions are lower. Is that true?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Broadly, the trends are the same-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

-----but both in the agriculture catchments programme and our own monitoring, nitrate levels are too high.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That is the first point to make

However, there is a difference in that respect.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Teagasc is seeing a reduction in 2022 that we do not see-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

-----over our broader area.

The question is why.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We would like to know that ourselves.

I am not being rude. Please do not take me as being rude, but the EPA is the body and entity in this case. Dr. Cotter stated previously she would like to get to the bottom of it, which I believe was her terminology an hour ago. Farmers have visited this catchment area. They have done farm works there. They have watched the technology that is being used on these farms. It has to be acknowledged the technology is reducing nitrogen levels. There is a different way of spreading slurry and an increased storage of water. These are all derogation farms that are doing it the right way, which was what was brought forward. In her modelling, Dr. Cotter admitted there is no difference between derogation farms and non-derogation farms. The Timoleague catchment has proven, and in fairness to Deputy Matthews, he has nailed it, that it is on the science, and that when the science shows the technologies are brought forward, nitrogen is reduced in the testing. Would that not be a fair assessment?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I can talk about our monitoring. We are not seeing the trends, particularly between 2021 and 2022, in our monitoring, which is over a much larger area in comparison with what the agricultural catchments programme is doing. We are engaging with Teagasc to try to understand more and for it to bring forward as to what are the practices that are being deployed in that area.

Can Dr. Cotter see the frustration within the industry when they see the results of good farming practice that show a reduction in nitrogen, which we are all striving for, and for some reason they are not taken into consideration?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We encourage farmers to engage with the agricultural catchments programme to see what is happening in that area. We would love to see those results replicated in the broader area, and we will do if those measures are replicated in the wider catchment we are monitoring. It is hoped we will see those results continue into the future.

Dr. Cotter made a statement that she can see the changes brought about by technology coming in a 12-month period. In other words, Dr. Cotter thinks the 12-month testing period is appropriate. My brother is an analytical chemist and he was on the phone to me straight away about this. It is a very unusual statement. Does Dr. Cotter believe a better or longer timeline is required, or is 12 months significant enough to see changes in agriculture practice produce a reduction in the nitrogen levels in water?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We can only say what we saw in using past data, and I gave the example of 2018, when there was a severe drought and farmers applied a lot of fertiliser to the land. We could see that-----

Under the advice that was given at the time.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes, and I know there have been learnings since then. We saw that come through in our monitoring data in the autumn of 2018 and in the spring of 2019. On that basis, and that is how I characterise it, we will see good practices come through in a relatively short period of time, and we are saying 12 months.

Let us take a very low figure. Is Dr. Cotter saying that if we were to reduce nitrogen to 170 mg/l tomorrow morning, in 12 months' time we would see all the waterways in Ireland clear?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Excuse me, what was the question?

If we were to reduce nitrogen to 170 mg/l tomorrow morning across the board would we see a dramatic improvement in our entire waterways system in Ireland?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That depends on where those reductions of the nitrogen loading happened. If it was in those freely draining soils which are more prone to nitrate leaching-----

If it is not then, what happens? It is probably the statement of the session, if not the day, that if we were to change our entire farming practice, in 12 months we would see an increase in water quality. I am trying to tease out that statement. I want to know the data behind it and if they have been looked at. I want to know where does the figure of 12 months come from because it is a really significant statement to make. If the EPA can stand over the statement that the reduction of nitrogen in farming practices can change our entire water supply within 12 months, that is a really significant statement.

Ms Mary Gurrie

I think that is confusing the response time in water quality nationally.

Yes, 12 months.

Ms Mary Gurrie

In some catchments it is not. Those catchments we refer to that hold nitrogen will not show such an improvement. If one looks at any particular catchment-----

Am I right in saying that there is 14 tonnes of nitrogen in the soil?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Sorry?

Am I right in saying that there are 14 tonnes of gathered nitrogen in the soil? We are just moving a small amount of nitrogen when it comes naturally, the daily routine of soil.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I do not know.

Okay. My point is about the 12 months. Significant changes, like banding, have come on board. The spreading of slurry has changed dramatically. These are all significant changes. The farming community has moved so fast, so quickly. I believe that 12-month period is not appropriate but maybe I am wrong. Maybe there is significant evidence to prove it. If there is significant evidence, could the EPA give us that evidence?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

With the 12 months, we are saying we would expect to see results materialise in our monitoring data within a 12-month period. It gives an indicator on when we can see changes, based on what we saw in 2018 and 2019. That is where the 12 months is coming from. We take our measurements. They are being taken as we speak.

Has a paper been done on that? Is there information that we can get as a committee to help us?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I was merely answering the question of when we would expect to see that come in our monitoring data as a result of positive measures in the agriculture sector. In 2018 and 2019, we saw that come through in a 12-month period. That is where the 12 months is coming from.

Ms Mary Gurrie

The other 12 months is the assessment between two-year periods. That is what the Commission has set and, in its criteria, it wanted an assessment of 2022 versus 2021. That is a separate assessment of change over a period. What is happening on the land and what we see coming through in monitoring data also happens to be in and around 12 months. I apologise if that does not answer the specific question. I think that might be-----

Regarding the increase or decrease per year, what are the parameters required per year? What is the ideal that we are looking for? Is it 0.1% or 0.2%? What is the variant?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

If the Senator is referring to the environment and what the environment needs-----

I am referring to water quality.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We know the concentrations are way too high in the catchments in the south and south east. Sometimes, they are twice as high as what they need to be. There will need to be dramatic cuts, particularly in the Slaney and Barrow, in the amount of nitrogen lost from those catchments to get the water quality back to where it needs to be.

What is the trend? What is the decrease or increase in the trend? What is the percentage, going up and down? Is it 0.1% or 0.2%? Where does it fall?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

I am not sure I understand the question. We published a report in 2021 that looked at the loads of nitrogen in all of the catchments where it is a problem. We found that the amount of reduction of nitrogen load that was needed in the water ranged from about a 20% to a 50% cut. That is what we need for the environmental outcome.

Will Dr. Deakin explain for the record the first national graph from 2010 to 2022?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

Which page is the Senator on?

Page 11 of the report, please.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

This graph is a plot of the nitrogen concentrations. We have five regions. The different concentrations in each region can be seen. The data points are averaged for each year for each region and nationally. The dotted coloured lines show the levels where the nitrogen concentrations need to be for different purposes. The blue line is to achieve the standards to support high water quality. The green line is the needed standard to support good water quality, where we have a good status objective. The yellow line is what we need to support good water quality in a marine environment.

We all know how we got to the figure of 9 mg, which is applicable because of the advice given to the farming community during the drought. Will Dr. Deakin explain what happened in 2016 on the major bar?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

That will be a combination of factors, including farm practice, the weather and various other matters. It is quite a complex story, as the Timoleague science would bear out. Ultimately, what is in that graph is what we see in the river.

In 2016, we dropped to 7.2 mg. I am trying to tease it out

We have to finish.

I have one more question. Why did we drop to 7.2 mg? It does not help those from the farming community listening to us today to say it was for complex reasons. What are those reasons? In other words, it was a dramatic drop to 7.2 mg. Is this going to depend on all these other issues? I just need to find out why it dropped to 7.2 mg.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The Timoleague catchment area would be in a good position to answer that question because it would have a diverse knowledge in this regard.

Would the EPA not have taken this information into consideration when it was making a submission to the Commission?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We were not asked in this assessment to describe what is happening year-on-year. We are giving a very prescribed-----

The EPA is still not taking the Timoleague catchment area into consideration when it is making its submission. Am I right?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The Timoleague catchment results go in separately to the Commission. They are reported alongside our information. We are obliged to present the report the committee has in front of it today to the Department. Alongside it goes information on the inspections and how the inspections programme is going, as well as a report on what is happening in the Timoleague catchment area.

It is a valid question to seek an answer to.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Three parameters will dictate nitrogen coming into our rivers. One is the type of soil. Freely drained soils will have more nitrogen leaching, for example. The other two parameters are farming practices and the weather. A mix of these three parameters will determine the amount of nitrogen leached from the land into the rivers. In terms of picking out one particular year, we can drill into this for the committee to enable an understanding of what exactly is happening there. It is, however, a combination of these three factors.

The trend over the 12-year period was 0.7 of an increase. Am I right in saying that?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I am sorry. What did the Senator say?

According to that graph, there was a 0.7% increase over a 12-year period.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

It goes from 7.5 mg/l to 8.2 mg/l.

That is an increase of 0.7. In that period of time, we had the so-called expansion of the dairy industry.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

That is not a percentage increase. It is going up to 8.2 mg/l. The units are in milligrams per litre of nitrogen nitrate.

It went up by 0.7 mg/l.

That is, in EU terms, considered stable water quality.

Ms Mary Gurrie

I think the national picture-----

That is the national picture.

Ms Mary Gurrie

Yes, but what we have if we look at the science-----

Okay. We are way over time, Senator Lombard.

Ms Mary Gurrie

We need to look at the whole of the-----

The national figure is an increase that is within the European limit. Is that true over the 12-year period?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We are looking at an increasing trend nationally.

But surely-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

If we were to down into the south east-----

-----going from -1 mg/l to 1 mg/l in a three-year period is considered by the Commission to be stable water quality.

That is what the Commission said.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

If we look into the south-east region, where we have-----

No, we are not asking about-----

No. The question was asked about the national trend.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes. We can-----

In EU terms, that is considered stable water quality.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The Commission requires us to ask the-----

No, no. The answer that is being sought is to the question of whether in EU terms, and its monitoring, a change from -1 mg/l to 1 mg/l over a three-year period is considered stable water quality.

This is what the Commission told us.

Over a 12-year period, we have only varied by 0.7 mg/l. In EU terms, then, is this considered stable water quality? Yes or no.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The EU requirements are-----

Dr. Jenny Deakin

-----for that test to be done at a-----

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Yes. We are-----

Dr. Jenny Deakin

-----station level.

The question is very straightforward. In EU monitoring terms, is the graph that has been referred to considered to represent stable water quality?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We are required to answer that question of monitoring-----

No, no. The question is simple.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No, it is not.

A yes-no answer is required. Regarding this graph, as I said, in my knowledge, going from -1 mg/l to 1 mg/l in a three-year period is considered stable water quality.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No.

In a 12-year period here, we have only varied by 0.7 mg/l. In EU monitoring terms, yes or no, is this considered stable water quality?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

No, it is not.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

We have seen, over the period from 2013 to 2022, a 12% increase nationally.

No, no, the figures here are going from 7.5 mg/l to 8.2 mg/l.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Over the period from 2010 to 2022, we have seen a 9% increase.

No. The figures here are going from 7.5 mg/l to 8.2 mg/l.

Is the graph wrong or am I wrong?

The EU's recommendation is that when we are between -1 mg/l and 1 mg/l over a three-year period, this is stable water quality. You cannot have it both ways.

We will take two very quick questions from Deputy Fitzmaurice and Senator Paul Daly. We are way over time. We will take the two questions together and then the answers.

The witnesses spoke about peat. Regarding the Little Brosna and Shannon rivers, did the EPA bring cases against Bord na Móna?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I am sorry. What is the Deputy asking?

The witnesses spoke about peat running down rivers, etc. Did the EPA bring any cases against Bord na Móna?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Not that I am aware of. What I was referring to earlier was the illegal extraction of peat.

It was well known in the cases of the Little Brosna and Shannon rivers. If peat is dangerous in this way, would the EPA recommend that all the Bord na Móna peat be cleaned out of the Shannon and the Little Brosna rivers?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Just to clarify, what I was referring to earlier in terms of cases was the illegal extraction of peat.

No, I am not talking about that. Dr. Cotter was speaking about THMs going down and organic matter going down in water. The River Shannon has a large amount of it from Bord na Móna, as everyone will acknowledge. Did the EPA bring a case against it?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Is that one of the-----

The case where it was stopped was different.

Dr. Eimear Cotter

I am not aware of such a case but I will have to clarify this and come back.

Would the EPA recommend that the likes of the Little Brosna river, where peat was milled, be cleaned out?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

Where we see an impact on water quality from peat extraction it needs to be dealt with.

For the information of the witnesses I am involved in a group water scheme. Generally, the location of a good spring well is fairly close to a bog or in soft ground. That is just for the information of the witnesses with regard to rural Ireland. It is actually the geological survey that will state where the water is coming from. It could be from a hill back the way. It does not always state it is coming from where the bog is, just so that people will not have the daylights frightened out of them. We got Geological Survey Ireland work done. Our water comes from a hill and we have a buffer zone. There is absolutely no problem with our THMs. We need to clarify this and have it right.

I would like clarification on something that was mentioned a while ago about the rise in levels after the drought of 2018. The witnesses stated it was because farmers used extra chemical nitrogen because that was the advice that was given. Do they have scientific proof of this? Is it just because they know extra nitrogen was used and they are correlating the two? The habits of many people and industries changed when there were water shortages and the drought happened. To use the same example I used earlier, there was a lot more grime gathered on the roads because they were dry and then it was washed into rivers. Are the witnesses making a correlation because they know farmers were advised to put on more chemical nitrogen? Do they have specific and scientific proof that the reason there was a rise after 2018 was because farmers were advised to use more chemical nitrogen?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

The agricultural experts-----

"Yes" or "No".

Dr. Eimear Cotter

"Yes" is the answer then. The agricultural experts in Teagasc-----

Do you have scientific proof?

Dr. Eimear Cotter

-----are very clear that the agricultural practices during the drought, on the back of advice that Teagasc has since learned from, led to an overapplication of fertiliser during the drought.

Is there scientific proof? Is it a correlation because people know it happened? If something happens that people know happened and then something else happens somewhere else, it is very easy to blame one on the other. I am not saying there is not a correlation but is there scientific proof it was the cause? Many other things changed as well in the dry period. The levels of water dropped, there was the grime on the roads and concrete yards all over the country, and there was how sewage treatment plants performed. You name it, a lot of things changed. Is there scientific proof as to what caused the rise in the nitrogen level in the water? Is it just hearsay correlation because we know farmers were advised to put out more chemical nitrogen?

Dr. Jenny Deakin

We have a role to do the inventories with regard to greenhouse gas emissions. As far as I remember, there were 407,000 tonnes of nitrogen in the inventories in 2018 and in the previous year the number was 386,000 tonnes. I will have to clarify the numbers.

It is a correlation. There is no scientific proof. It is correlation. The EPA is adding up the figures of what was spread. Are the witnesses saying, therefore, that in next year's report, because chemical nitrogen use dropped so much last year due to the price because of the war in Ukraine and because of schemes, they can nearly tell us here and now that the nitrogen level will be down next year? It is the same correlation. It is the same theory.

Dr. Jenny Deakin

The response is better coming from Teagasc. It made this statement itself.

No, we are talking to the EPA today. We will talk to Teagasc on other occasions. The EPA are the people sending the report to the Commission. It is the EPA we are questioning today. We will have Teagasc in, no doubt, and we will make comparisons. We are talking to the EPA today and I want an answer to my question. Do the witnesses have scientific proof that what they have said is correct and that the correlation scientifically exists? Is it just hearsay because we know this happened and that happened so there must be a relationship between the two?

Ms Mary Gurrie

We know the vast majority of nitrogen in most agricultural catchments comes from agriculture. It comes from the fertiliser and the animal numbers. If we look at what changed, it was the nitrogen load in terms of chemical fertiliser.

Based on that logic, next year the nitrogen level in the water will be down. We can all go home knowing the nitrogen levels in the water next year will go down based on how the EPA operates on that logic because we all know that chemical fertiliser was not used last year.

Has the investment in Uisce Éireann over the past ten years shown an improvement in the water quality of the receding waters? If there were an investment to upgrade a water treatment plant, would there be an improvement in water quality within 12 months?

Ms Mary Gurrie

The answer to both questions is "Yes". We are starting to see the number of water bodies that are impacted by wastewater reducing as investment goes in, such as in the quality of drinking water and of bathing water at beaches.

Is the issue mainly with phosphorous?

Ms Mary Gurrie

It is nitrogen and phosphorous.

In the main, however, phosphorous is the big issue at wastewater treatment plants. Is that correct?

Ms Mary Gurrie

It is about the overall water quality. We regulate the discharge.

As the level of one of the gases reduces, the other goes along.

Ms Mary Gurrie

Once emission limits improve, the impact on water quality in terms of nutrients will be quickly seen. The biology tends to follow within about a year.

If new mechanisms are put in, such as the schemes Irish Water has initiated, there will always be better quality water. There is no doubt about that. The more money that is put into Irish Water and group water schemes throughout the country, the better. That is true of anywhere you go.

Will Dr. Cotter send to the committee a copy of everything that was sent to the Commission? We would greatly appreciate that. I thank the witnesses from the EPA for attending. We have had a rigorous question-and-answer session.

I propose we suspend the meeting before we begin the next session with representatives of the Irish Farmers Association. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2.21 p.m. and resumed in public session at 2.52 p.m.

We will resume with the second session of this meeting when we will hear from the following representatives of the Irish Farmers' Association, IFA: Mr Tim Cullinan, president; Mr Tadhg Buckley, director of policy; and Dr. Aine O’Connell, dairy policy executive. The IFA are accompanied by a representative from Environmental Risk Solutions, Mr. Shane Herlihy, managing director.

I had better read the piece on privilege in case any witnesses say something they should not. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means witnesses will have a full defence in any defamation action arising from anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair’s direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Our guest speakers are welcome to today's meeting. Their opening statements have been circulated to committee members and will be taken as read. I will allow the president to make a five-minute presentation and will then go into questions and answers. I call Mr. Cullinan to speak.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I thank the Chair and committee members for inviting IFA here today. Before I commence my statement I also want to put on the record that I am aware that the committee had a long session this morning. The EPA is not our enemy in this particular episode and we are not here to undermine anybody. We are, however, very concerned about the consequences of losing the derogation with the impact that would have and the devastation it would cause to our sector.

Both the environmental and economic sustainability of Irish agriculture are underpinned by our temperate climate which allows us to produce beef and dairy produce from pasture. Some 92% of all agricultural land in Ireland is grassland, compared with an EU average of 31%. Our grass-based system is unique in Europe where livestock is typically reared indoors. Irish agriculture is dominated by small to medium-sized family farms, with an average farm size of 33 ha. The average stocking rate - that is, livestock units per hectare - is 1.3 units per hectare and 2.1 units per hectare for dairy herds. That is relatively low compared to other EU countries including the Netherlands which has 3.4 units, Malta which has 3.2 units and Belgium has 2.7 units per hectare.

Ireland avails of a nitrates derogation to maximise the amount of pasture utilised in livestock production systems. The justification for having the derogation in Ireland is based on objective criteria, such as the long growing season, which ranges from 330 days per year in the south west to approximately 250 days per year in the north east, and the high yields of grass with high nitrogen uptake. Article 12 of the Commission’s implementing decision of 29 April 2022 that granted Ireland a derogation included the requirement to conduct a review of water quality for the two years 2021 and 2022 to take place in 2023. The review was to determine maximum stocking rate thresholds based on nitrates concentrations, eutrophic status and their respective trends. This condition was introduced without consultation with stakeholders and will have a significant economic impact on derogation farmers' livelihoods and will deliver negligible improvements to water quality.

The competitive advantage of grass-based systems is based on maximising grass utilisation. Where the stocking rate is not sufficient relative to pasture growth potential on a farm, it will result in lower grass utilisation, lower sward quality and reduced animal performance. The imposition of a lower organic nitrogen limit per hectare could move farmers away from pasture-based systems to a higher input system with more feed bought in, in an attempt to maintain milk output from the farm. Annex 1 of the EPA's Water Quality Monitoring Report on Nitrogen and Phosphorus Concentrations in Irish waters 2022 addresses Article 12 and the red map was created to satisfy the Commission's assessment framework. The IFA rightly called out the red map as nonsensical, which it is. This is not a criticism of the EPA, but a criticism of the framework it was requested by the Commission to use when categorising areas for a reduced stocking rate threshold. Those who have studied this beyond the headlines understand that targeting agricultural maps are the EPA's preferred option for targeted actions.

Since the publication of Article 12, the IFA has consistently outlined the flaws associated with its measurement of water quality to determine stocking rate thresholds. Most notably, an assessment time of two years is too short to assess trends as it ignores the reality of lag times. Lag times are the delay between the time when a particular agricultural practice or activity occurs and the time when its impact on water quality is observed. This delay is due to a range of factors, including the time it takes for nutrients to move through the soil and into groundwater; the time it takes for groundwater to move through the aquifer; and the time it takes for monitoring data to be collected and analysed. As a consequence, it can be difficult to attribute changes in water quality to specific agricultural practices or activities, as the effects of individual practices or activities accumulate over years or decades. It is therefore not possible to make meaningful conclusions about national or regional trends based on a limited number of monitoring sites over a short-term period of two or three years. These delays must be quantified in order to establish realistic deadlines, thresholds and policy expectations and to design effective best management practices.

The eutrophic status of a water body is impacted by a multitude of pressures and associated nutrients. Improving its status is dependent on a variety of measures and not only a reduction in stocking rate. In addition, the nitrates directive requires the eutrophic status of surface, estuary and coastal waters to be measured every four years, while the Commission decision insists that a comparison be made between 2021 and 2022.

This is not consistent.

A reduced stocking rate threshold of 220 kg N/ha would have a negligible impact on water quality. It is modelled by Teagasc to reduce nitrate loss to 1 m soil depth by 2.2 kg N/ha. However, due to Ireland's heterogenous landscape, its contribution to catchments with be variable and inconsistent. While its benefit to water quality is questionable, the economic impact of the reduction is guaranteed. The IFA estimates that the loss to the rural economy will likely be €236 million. However, the impact it will have on the impacted family farms will be much more devastating.

Given that our estuaries capture significantly large catchment areas and pressures, the use of their status to determine stocking rate thresholds is not valid as it ignores the contribution of wastewater treatment plants and other pressures to declining water status. A total of 27% of transitional water bodies - estuaries and coastal lagoons - are at risk of not achieving good status and are impacted equally by the combined effects of urban wastewater and runoff, which is 40%, and agriculture, which is 43%.

In excess of 30 measures have been included in the nitrates directive since 2018 and need to be given time to demonstrate improvements. Of critical importance, the introduction of banding and its impact on stocking rates was only introduced in 2023 and hence this very costly measure adopted by farmers is ignored within Article 12.

Recognising the seriousness of the issue, an IFA delegation met with the nitrates unit of the European Commission in February to outline our concerns relating to the details of Article 12. Subsequently, the IFA made a submission to the Commission that has been made available to this committee for today’s meeting as appendix 1. In March, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine reflected on our concerns and informed the Seanad that he would be seeking further flexibility on Article 12. This flexibility needs to be obtained as a matter of urgency.

It is worth pointing out that, in the past two months, the Minister has put together an agriculture water quality working group to which he has consistently referred since its establishment. This group is in its infancy, with its fourth meeting held yesterday, and may well prove to be a very useful vehicle in helping protect water quality in the medium term. However, the current issue relating to a possible reduction to 220 kg organic N is far too pressing and urgent to hand over to a working group formed in the past six weeks.

The most recent national farm survey data reveal that the average dairy farmer, who is most affected by any changes to the derogation, has €127,477 of bank borrowings, with 77% of this classed as medium to long-term debt. This debt is typically present on younger farmers whose repayment capacity is based on the premise that a 250 kg organic N limit is applicable. If a 220 kg N/ha stocking rate threshold is introduced, it will likely place some of these farms in financial jeopardy. How could we agree to more costly measures when we find our farmers in this space?

Farmers are very aware of their responsibility towards protecting water quality and have made significant investments on their farms to mitigate their pressure on local catchments. An assessment of water quality must be scientifically robust, fair and justified. Article 12's assessment of water quality is not scientifically robust. It is not fair or justified, yet it will have massive ramifications for the entire agricultural sector. The IFA is seeking an immediate resolution by the Minister to Article 12 and the exploration of alternative measures that can improve water quality without decimating farm families. I will now hand over to our hydrogeologist and water expert, Mr. Shane Herlihy.

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I thank the committee for inviting me to appear before it today. I am a hydrogeologist and environmental consultant with 27 years' consulting experience serving private and public sector clients in Ireland, the EU, the UK and Australia.

In that time, I have gained considerable experience in how water quality can be affected by a wide range of activities and how these present a risk to the environment. I was engaged by the IFA to independently review EPA water quality reports, Teagasc research and the nitrates action programme.

In Ireland, the role of agriculture has been constantly portrayed as the most significant cause of nitrates in our waters. Agricultural land use occupies the largest proportion of our land area, so its potential impacts upon water quality are worthy of consideration in how we achieve the very ambitious goals established within the water framework directive. Teagasc is worthy of due recognition and praise for the excellent research work that has been completed over the past 15 years on the agricultural catchments programme, which has provided insight into the complex factors - including those relating to soil, geology, the weather and farm management - that cause nitrate mobilisation to our waters. It is clear that this research has been put to good use in developing the nitrates action plan and the good agricultural practice regulations.

A key natural factor that has been missing from the debate about water quality and agricultural land use is time lag. This is very concerning due to the tight timeframes being sought at policy level to achieve good water quality status. All our waters are linked together in the hydrological cycle, and groundwater moves slowly taking years if not decades to reach surface water bodies depending on the hydrogeological conditions and distances to be covered. This is particularly the case in the south east of the country, which is highlighted by the EPA as a region of the most concern. Due to the natural slow rate of groundwater flow and nitrate transport, the water quality being measured and reported by the EPA, particularly groundwater and surface water quality in summer and dry periods, represents the impacts of historic land use practice, rather than recent changes that have been implemented in response to increased environmental regulation. Surface water quality monitoring in the wetter winter months is more likely to represent impacts from current or recent farm management practice, which makes the specific measures to control land spreading of slurry and provision of adequate storage facilities particularly important. Other measures that will reduce the amount of nitrates being released into groundwater will take significant time - decades - to manifest in lower groundwater and summer or dry surface water concentrations.

The EPA’s Water Quality Monitoring Report on Nitrogen and Phosphorus Concentrations in Irish Waters 2022 presents a highly conservative picture of the quality of Ireland’s waters and the measures required to improve them. The EPA concludes that average nitrate concentrations have increased since 2012-13 in all water types. However, this is not supported by the data. The EPA figures illustrate stable conditions. The EPA has not provided any statistical evidence to demonstrate that trends are increasing. The EPA uses a highly conservative value of 25 mg/l nitrate in groundwater to describe it as a cause for concern to drinking water quality when the drinking water limit is established in the drinking water regulations at a value double that at 50 mg/l. Only 6% of the groundwater monitoring sites monitored by the EPA exceeded the threshold value of 37.5 mg/l nitrate in groundwater established to protect groundwater resources in the groundwater regulations. The EPA only reports on dissolved inorganic nitrogen, DIN, values for estuarine and coastal water bodies in the winter months using the rationale that DIN is expected to be at its highest in winter because of the absence of any significant plant or algal growth at that time of year; therefore less nitrogen is used up and remains in the water. This differs from the agency’s approach to report all inland freshwater - rivers and lakes - as an annual mean. It stands to reason that a consistent approach should be applied in order that the necessary policy measures can be developed and implemented. The EPA excludes all reference to other sources of nutrients in our waters other than agriculture. The EPA’s focus upon reporting only winter monitoring results from estuaries and coasts is particularly concerning as this data will also include potentially significant overflows from urban wastewater treatment plants unable to cope with winter rainfall.

The EPA concludes that targeted measures are required in nitrate-critical source areas, which have been mapped in great detail. This stands in marked contrast to the interim water quality review map prepared in response to the European Commission in Article 12 of Commission implementing decision (EU) 2022/696. The EPA’s interim water quality review, contained in annex 1 of the EPA report, appears to have implemented the Commission’s Article 12 requirements more onerously than was required in developing a map of areas where additional measures are required.

For example, Article 12(1) states that:

"The competent authorities shall submit [...] maps showing those areas draining into waters where monitoring data reveal:

(a) average values of nitrate concentrations above 50 mg/l or increasing trends of nitrates concentration compared to 2021;"

The EPA have implemented these as their test criteria.

Its report states:

Criterion A1

Test A1 Description: Water bodies that have a station with an average nitrate concentration > 50 mg/l NO3 over the 3-year period from 1 January 2020 to 31 December 2022.

Criterion A 2

Test A2 Description: Water bodies that have a station with a higher average nitrate concentration in 2022 compared to the average nitrate concentration in 2021. A higher average concentration means there is a difference of >1 mg/l NO3 between the average nitrate concentrations for the two individual years ...

It is clear from Teagasc’s research that nitrate losses to water are caused by a multitude of factors and not simply linked to herd size. Strong controls have been enacted with existing regulations. These will take time to take effect. A balanced analysis of water quality data is required to formulate national policy.

I thank Mr. Herlihy and Mr. Cullinan for their comprehensive opening statements. We pride ourselves on our green image. Water quality is essential for us. We had a long session this morning with the EPA from which it was clear that, in spite of a significant increase in dairy cow numbers since 2015, water quality has not disimproved. That is an important statement.

Looking at some of the maps put before us and the logical imbalance in them, the information that is on the table needs to be reassessed in order to ensure that we make decisions which will have a beneficial impact on water quality. As has been said at this session and this morning's, derogation farmers, especially, have taken on a lot of measures to ensure practices on their farms mitigate the chances of impinging on water quality greatly. The argument those restrictions or regulations have to be given time to show their impact on water quality is a significant one.

Senator Lombard made the point this morning that Timoleague has the highest density of derogation farmers in the country and that area, with the high monitoring going on there, is showing a significant improvement in water quality. That shows when stocking rate is regulated, with various new technologies employed and restrictions on spreading of slurry, etc., it is not having an impact on water quality and that water quality can actually improve despite an area having significant levels of stock.

At a previous meeting on the nitrates, we discussed the huge economic impact on the industry, not only in the context of the cost of processing but also that relating to family farms. This frightens me. We have to get water quality right. That is paramount, but the average age of dairy farmers is 59. If we expect young people to take over family farms and the first thing they see is that they will be forced to reduce stock numbers, that will be a serious disincentive. As Mr. Cullinan said, unfortunately it would make many family farms unviable, which would be a disaster for the family farm structure and the economic viability of rural Ireland.

We have had a number of sessions on this in the past couple of weeks. Assessing the data the EPA has put together, there can be different correct interpretations put on it. When we examine the data in detail, we can clearly put forward a concrete case that stocking rate is not a determining factor when it comes to water quality and that there are other factors at play.

Mr. Herlihy spoke about slurry storage. Can he expand a bit on what he means? We will have to face up to whether the closed period for slurry needs to be looked at again and remodelled if we are serious about improving water quality. Again, doing that will bring a very significant expense at a farm level. Farmers have shown in the past that when they see the benefit of investing in their farmyard they are definitely not shy to do it. As politicians, we can see the economic side of this and the huge impact it will have on our rural constituencies. As I said, we all want to see water quality improving. It is in all of our interests. In my view, and I am very stringent on this, we can do that without having an impact on farming productivity. Mr. Herlihy made a point about the time lag for implementing the improvements. It is hugely important that we give the technology we have embraced time to work.

There will probably be some specific questions for the witnesses now. If Senator Paul Daly has his phone quietened down, he may go ahead.

It was controlling me there. I was making it worse instead of better. I must figure out how to turn it off.

I will follow on from what the Cathaoirleach has said. I did not realise I was up first, but I have decided that I have only one question. I would like to give the representatives the opportunity to respond to what they have heard here this morning. I welcome the president of the IFA, Mr. Cullinan, along with Mr. Herlihy, Dr. O'Connell and Mr. Buckley. I ask Mr. Herlihy for his viewpoint as an expert in the field. I know he was present during the first session. I have read and heard the IFA's submissions and I have no questions about them. I cannot see anywhere where I can punch a hole in anything they are saying. I had decided that if I had the first slot - I thought it might be Senator Lombard - I would afford the IFA my time to give us its response to what it heard here this morning. With the greatest of respect to other representatives of the IFA, I would be most interested in hearing from Mr. Herlihy, as a hydrogeologist who is the expert in the field, his reaction to what he heard this morning. Where does he think we are going forward, based on the tranche we had this morning on the famous report that has gone to the Commission?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I thank the Senator. This morning, the EPA said a few things that I would respectfully disagree with. Before I address any of those points in particular, I will say it is important that when we look at water quality, discuss water quality and discuss data, trends and everything else, we have to think about what we are actually sampling. This comes to the heart of the issue. When we take a sample of groundwater in particular, we are taking a composite sample of things that have gone on for a very long period of time. Depending on where the sampling point is located in the aquifer, you are looking at years or decades of a composite water that you are taking a sample of. When you take a sample of that and you report it only in terms of what was there the year before, it can be difficult to draw conclusions on what has definitely occurred. That is the first point. What are we actually sampling?

There is also the issue of surface water. In the summer months and the dry months, surface water will usually reflect what is flowing into rivers and streams as groundwater, or base flow. We have less flow and it is being supported by the groundwater that is coming into those streams. In the winter months, more of what we see in the rivers comes from overland flow, where the soils are saturated and where there is intense rainfall. It runs off the surface and it picks up slurry - if it is being spread inappropriately - and other pollutants that get into the water.

Equally, wastewater treatment plants come under a lot of pressure in the winter months because they cannot cope, particularly in cases where there are combined sewers which include foul water and surface water. When they cannot cope, there has to be an outflow into the rivers. That is what is being sampled. From a hydrogeological and an environmental perspective, I have concerns with the way the EPA is reporting some of the data because it does not seem that the hydrological context is considered or portrayed in the reports. That is really important in terms of what advice you give to try to drive a policy measure that will make a difference and a change. Teagasc has done really good research.

The question of how nitrates get into the environment and into waters is really well understood, but the time-lag factor definitely does not receive enough attention in terms of how things are considered and how we respond to what we think are changes in water quality.

The second issue I have a concern about in terms of how the EPA has presented the data is that there is constant reference made to increases. The language that is being used is significant. It is being reported that there have been large increases and that concentrations are not where we need them to be. Looking at the data, the trends are quite flat. I do not agree that we are seeing any significant increases. We are generally seeing pretty stable conditions. There will always be a bit of fluctuation on the basis of natural variations and laboratory and sampling errors. One of the things that is not really discussed by the EPA in its reports is the statistics relating to how it is defining the trends it is discussing and placing huge emphasis on. Respectfully, that is a concern which needs to be addressed. The reporting shows that there are trends in terms of where the water is coming from. That is the main thing really in terms of the EPA's analysis. Perhaps Mr. Buckley or Dr. O'Connell want to comment on what we have seen today.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

Earlier, a statement was made to the effect that we would see improvements in water quality within 12 months. In some areas that is possible, but the research from Teagasc Johnstown suggests that at large catchment scale, it could, depending on a wide variety of factors, take from seconds to days to months to years or to decades. Inferring that there is a direct linear relationship between stocking rate or source load and what is lost out of a catchment is quite irresponsible. There is a lot more going on in the catchment.

Senator Daly asked about the correlation between the 2018 drought and the rise in fertiliser sales. At the EPA conference, we were told that despite the drop in fertiliser sales last year, we did not see a corresponding drop in nitrates. The witnesses at the meeting earlier today failed to mention the impact of mineralisation on soils and nitrate loss. Equally, there is the opposite of denitrification, which also has an impact on nitrogen. There is a lot more at play than is sometimes considered. We need to be cognisant of that. Looking at the trends set out on page 11 of the report, it is stated that they were statistically verified. However, at the meeting of the water working group, we were told that they were raw averages. With a PhD and having done trend analysis, I can say that if they are statistically verified, you need to be able to determine the order of significance between adjacent years. There is no order of significance between the differences set out in the report. Therefore, to the naked eye or the average reader, it could be assumed that no statistical analysis has been undertaken, because no order of significance is outlined.

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I would just like to add one final point. The question of how Ireland's water quality fares compared with that of other European member states did not really feature at all in the discussion with the EPA. When we look at how things are reported to Europe and among all the different member states, Ireland's water quality is very good, particularly in comparison with other countries. Germany in particular has lots of nitrate problems in groundwater compared with Ireland. I would argue that we do not really have a significant nitrate groundwater problem, particularly when we consider that drinking water levels are set in legislation at 50 mg/l and we have a groundwater threshold value, which is a conservative 75% of the drinking water level. That is how that is set. Only 5% to 6% of the samples come in higher than that. I would argue that our water quality, particularly when compared with Europe, is high.

In some respects, we are talking ourselves down. That is not a good position from a policy perspective when we are talking about nitrates derogation.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

The point Mr. Herlihy has made is relevant. When we compare water quality in Ireland with the situation across the EU, we are at a lower level. How the reporting is done is important. What needs to come out of this meeting is for the Minister to make a further submission to the European Commission to ensure that we can maintain the derogation as we move forward. It would be beneficial if we can focus some of the debate around that. As farmers, we really understand the importance of the derogation. That is why we are here today. If we come forward with a number of proposals, we would appreciate if the committee were to forward those proposals to the Minister. He is the person who will deliver the proposals to the Commission. I stress how important that is. If we could spend time today working on proposals that can go back to the Commission, it would be a very worthwhile exercise.

I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. I have engaged previously with three of them. Will Mr. Herlihy explain his qualifications and experience over the past 27 years?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I am a hydrogeologist. I have an undergraduate degree in earth science from Trinity College, an MSc in hydrogeology and groundwater resources from University College London and an MBA from University College Dublin. I am a professional registered geologist with the Institute of Geologists of Ireland and the European Federation of Geologists. I have worked for 27 years as a consultant advising the private sector, industry, waste companies and manufacturing industries. I have also advised public bodies, including the EPA, on environmental liability regulations and the directive, and how they can be implemented in Ireland. I also work for the insurance sector on environmental risk specifically, which includes specialist environmental policies that cover manufacturing industries and the agricultural sector, including in the UK, where I have helped to develop some research. I have advised on a number of projects around the world.

A statement was made by the EPA representatives this morning to the effect that we can see a significant change in groundwater in a period of 12 months. With his experience over the past 27 years, what does Mr. Herlihy think of that statement?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I do not think we will see any significant changes in 12 months. We would hope to see some changes in the surface water overland flows that may occur in the winter if there is a huge improvement in that regard, particularly in terms of the closed period and slurry management in the winter months. However, in regard to groundwater, and surface water in particular in the summer months, it will take a very long time to achieve any significant improvements.

Is Mr. Herlihy aware of any research anywhere in the world showing that in a 12-month period, in the context of whatever measures are brought forward, a significant change can be seen?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I am not aware of any research that says a significant improvement will be seen in 12 months. I have seen research in which Teagasc was involved that says it will take time, particularly in the case of the larger catchments. The EPA representatives referred to some of the problems they perceive as being a big issue, with particular mention of the Barrow and Slaney. They are big catchments and the changes there will take a very long time to manifest themselves.

The farming community has introduced changes in the past three or four years, involving more than 30 different measures. The EPA representatives acknowledged today that when they model catchments, derogation farmers are not part of the modelling. In other words, the EPA does not acknowledge the derogation farmers are there. We have a scenario now whereby when we have a catchment, we take into consideration a loading in that catchment. Bovine matter is a part of that loading. However, the EPA has not worked out how many of them are derogation farms. What is Mr. Herlihy's view of that type of modelling whereby the good farming practices that are happening because of derogation are not taken into consideration? That question might be more appropriate for Dr. O'Connell.

Mr. Shane Herlihy

Yes, Dr. O'Connell is probably best placed to answer it.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

My understanding is that the model referred to this morning is known as the source load apportionment model.

We understand that looks at the number of cows in an area, attributes an equal volume of nitrogen to each cow and that total input is put in as a cumulative value. It does not account for the management of those cows. If you have one farm with 100 cows managed poorly versus another farm with 100 cows managed better in protecting water quality, my understanding is the latter would have a better impact on water quality and yet the management is not being captured in that source load apportionment, SLA, model. That would be a critical issue because since 2018, more than 30 measures have been introduced into the ntrates action programme, NAP. The programme has got increasingly enhanced. We are now in the fifth round of the NAP and there is a lot of change occurring on farms that needs time to work. We know in an Irish context that it can sometimes take decades for these to deliver.

If the 220 kg N/ha comes in in January 2024, the concern I would have is that if water quality improvements were seen, it would apportioned all to the fact that stocking rate dropped to 220 kg N/ha. It would neither recognise nor acknowledge all the measures that have been taken on farms since 1991 since the directive was introduced, and particularly the measures that have been introduced since 2018, most notably nitrogen banding, which, in itself, is a reduction in stocking rate only introduced in 2023 and which is not even recognised or acknowledged in Article 12 because Article 12 will only allow you compare water quality data from 2022 to 2021.

We are taking on more measures. The fertiliser register is yet to come in. It is meant to come in this year. Banding came in. There are extensions to our closed periods. We are willing to adopt more and engage with that working group to look at alternative measures and solutions to addressing water quality. However, the reduction from 250 kg N/ha to 220 kg N/ha, in our opinion, is a very blunt instrument. The red map shows just how blunt it is because there is a clear misalignment in some areas of the location of the derogation farms and the location of the areas affected by 220 kg N/ha.

We need to look at measures that do not impact income because for farmers to make more changes on their farm they need to have stable incomes, but to look at measures that address water quality in different ways. We need to spend more time on that and get a resolution to the 220 kg N/ha.

The red map Dr. O'Connell mentioned forms a significant part of this report. This 29-page report has created more confusion in the farming community than anything else. Whoever deems it appropriate, perhaps the president of the IFA, might elaborate regarding that red map and also that, because the EPA produced the red map, it found that it had to produce a map on page 21 afterwards to clarify the red map because the red map made no sense. There is significant confusion out there regarding that document. Could Mr. Cullinan comment on the red map and why it has been such an issue of debate?

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I thank the Senator, who is correct. I described that red map as nonsensical from the day it was released to the media. It has caused a lot of concern and worry to farmers up and down the country. As we see, the vast majority of the country is included in this map and other areas where there is intensive activity have been excluded as well.

My understanding of the red map is that the EU Commission requested the EPA to come forward with this red map and, as the Senator correctly states, all it has done is create confusion.

Mr. Herlihy made a good point earlier on here - this is very important - that only 6% of the groundwater monitoring is above the threshold allowed. Looking at that and looking at this red map, I have to question how areas of the country where there is not intensive agricultural activity being carried out currently were included in the red map in the first place.

Famously, Leitrim is included.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

Exactly. Counties like Leitrim are absolutely-----

There is one derogation farm with 3,000 cows and, as can be seen, it is marked as red.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

Absolutely, I believe we all agree that, as I have said, this map was nonsensical from the start. However, this is what was requested by the European Commission.

That was under Article 12.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

Yes, it was under Article 12 and I believe that everybody at the committee meeting this evening agrees that Article 12 has the potential to do serious damage to our sector if it is not rectified. That is my view on it. Mr. Buckley might want to add to what I am saying.

Mr. Tadhg Buckley

I thank the president and I thank the committee for the invitation to attend this afternoon. Most things have been covered. On the red map, what the president has just said is very important. What the red map has shown is that what was requested by the Commission is actually the core problem. The EPA did what the Commission asked it to do. To be fair, this is something we have flagged with regard to this Commission implementing decision since we first became aware of it last June.

There are a couple of issues that are important to consider. Obviously, timing and the putting in of additional measures are very important. These were covered earlier. The bluntness in the approach of reducing the 250 kg per hectare to 220 kg per hectare is likely to result in the loss of the goodwill of farmers. It is also misses an opportunity. As Mr. Herlihy has said, we are fortunate that our water quality levels are of a high standard when compared to our EU counterparts. There are targets set out in the likes of the water framework directive which mean that we will need to protect our water quality and look at making improvements. We fully understand that. However, if you want to make improvements, you need to take the measures that will achieve that. We are of the view that it cannot categorically be said that going from 250 kg per hectare to 220 kg per hectare will achieve any significant improvement in water quality. There are alternative options that the sector could look at that could well achieve significantly better results. When you look at trying to put measures in place, if you go straight to 220 kg per hectare, I am not sure you will keep the goodwill of farmers. They have already taken significant additional measures over recent years. We spoke about banding and a 10% reduction in organic nitrogen was adopted by the industry. We have also looked at other things like cambering roadways and soil water storage. We need to look at what we can do. The agricultural sustainability support and advisory programme, ASSAP, which involves doing the right measure in the right place at the right time, takes a much more tailored approach. That will likely achieve better results.

Let us look at what the move to 200 kg could potentially do. It could lead to a significant overheating of an already disrupted land market. Over the last 12 months, we have seen a great increase in the demand for land which has led to a substantial increase in the cost of leasing land. That has impacted all farmers. There are a couple of ways it has impacted farmers.

First of all, the economically stronger farmers can outcompete the less economically strong farmers. In other words, we have dairy farmers who economically, based on income per hectare, have a stronger capacity to pay for a hectare of land and can outcompete non-dairy farmers. As well as that, we have smaller dairy farmers, which are the core of our industry, struggling to hold on to or acquire land because they are being outcompeted by larger dairy farmers. There are, therefore, unintended consequences and possibly situations whereby smaller dairy farmers and non-dairy farmers are unable to get land, or where they are renewing land leases are paying substantially more for them. That is a direct income hit as well. It is a transfer of funds from active and productive farmers in drystock tillage and dairy across to landowners for whom, in many cases, that money does not work and does not make anything like the same economic contribution nationally. We have seen that already and it is going to keep happening.

I will make one more point if the Chair does not mind. The other issue is that if we look at our climate action plan targets, a core part of that is land use. If we look at the 2023 climate action plan, there are significant targets set out. We have an ambition to have an additional 68,500 ha under forestry by 2030. If we are to achieve our anaerobic digestion target, we estimate that it will require another 115,000 ha of land. We have an ambition, which we think is the right thing to have, to try to increase our area under tillage. We want to look at increasing that by 51,500 ha. The Government has no chance of achieving those targets if it is making changes to the nitrates programme. We estimate that a 250 kg N/ha to 220 kg N/ha reduction will lead to an extra 29,000 ha of land being required by dairy farmers.

The issue is that when we look at how we are going about this, it has a significant number of additional unintended consequences we have to factor in. That is why we need to look at this in a different way to ask what we can do as alternatives that can still look to achieving the ambition of protecting and possibly enhancing water quality without having a substantial income hit directly to the farmers in derogation and indirectly to other farmers who are farming across the country.

Mr. Cullinan said a few minutes ago that he had a number of proposals he would like to put on the table for the Minister to possibly take back to Brussels. Could he start to elaborate on that, please?

Mr. Tim Cullinan

Before we do that, one thing I want to stress again this afternoon is that what we have here in Ireland is unique with our grass-based system. The Chairman understands that better than anybody. What we have is unique. If we look at the system across Europe, it is mainly an indoor system. We are running the risk of destroying our Origin Green reputation where we market our dairy produce in 130 countries right around the world. Our exports from agriculture are going to 180 countries right around the world. It is critically important to remember that and the impact it could potentially have on industry in rural Ireland. I just wanted to make that point.

Okay. I call Dr. O'Connell.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

On the proposals to the Commission regarding the assessment procedure on which I will talk solely, we think the criteria imposed by the Commission are flawed and the red map is a result of that. It does not line up with the map the EPA has drawn, that is, map 9, Targeting Agricultural Measures. What we have requested in our submission to the Commission is a longer time period to compare. Comparing two years of data is not sufficient. We need a longer window. The agricultural catchments programme, ACP, and, in general, other peer-reviewed scientific papers would always refer to a four-year rolling average that is statistically verified using the Mann-Kendall test. We would look at a more fair, appropriate assessment of that time period and at what trends are really occurring and that period of difference.

We would also question the inclusion of estuaries, specifically because estuaries are a catch-all for all pressures. They are the ends of the line so all the pressures feed into the estuaries. A reduction in stocking rate alone is too big an ask to deliver an improvement in estuaries, particularly when, as Mr. Herlihy has alluded to, in winter, the pressure from wastewater is almost equal to that from agriculture. We need to consider excluding estuaries.

We also need to look at the nutrification status. It was clear enough this morning that the nutrification status has very little to do with the stocking rate. While there is a correlation between free-draining soils, cow density and nitrates, and we can disagree or agree on the interpretation of that, there is absolutely no correlation between stocking rate and nutrification status. That is why a lot of random counties, such as Leitrim and Mayo, are being included when we would not expect that to be the case. Nutrification is much more complex than the stocking rate that feeds into it. As the witnesses said this morning, phosphorous, nitrogen, macroinvertebrates, the ecology, water and macrophytes play a part. The situation is complex and many factors feed in. It is unfair to expect a reduction in stocking rate alone to feed into changes in nutrification status. We therefore think that should not be a factor in assessing whether we go to 220 kg N/ha.

On the assessments, we have, in our submission to the Commission, made the proposal that they should not be in line with the assessment criteria. They are not new but they are scientifically valid and accepted by the science community. They need to be accepted here. In addition, the comparison every two years is not even in line with the EU's directive itself. The nitrates action programme and the water framework directive are reviewed every four years.

The problem is that the Department agreed Article 12 two years ago. It effectively signed us up for something that is very hard for us to comply with. The working group Dr. O'Connell and Mr. Buckley sit on at the moment, and our guests might correct me if I am wrong in this, is asking for proposals on how we will work towards reaching Article 12.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

That is exactly the case.

That is a dangerous place to be put in.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

I have no doubt but that if the criteria outlined in Article 12 were applied ten years ago, the same areas would be in the red. That is to say, it is so blunt that it does not capture the impact of stocking rate on water quality. It should not have been agreed to. There are better ways than this to assess water quality and the impact of agriculture on water quality. That is why the EPA put forward its map.

Mr. Buckley and Dr. O'Connell sit on this working group. I understand there have been four meetings so far. According to the press release by the Minister, the group is meeting again next week. I do not want our guests to break any confidentiality commitments but this working group has been set up in the past four or five weeks to try to come up with a solution in the next four to five weeks. Is it fair to think that a working group of such standing can come up with a proposal to solve this issue?

Mr. Tadhg Buckley

It is like the lad in Kerry who was asked for directions and said, "Well, if I was going there, I wouldn't start from here." However, we are where we are, to a large extent. We are in a situation whereby we have signed up to Article 12. When I say "we" have signed up, I mean the country has. We are in a situation now where we have to try to mitigate the worst impacts it could have. A working group has been set up and its first meeting was in mid-June. We met again yesterday. I am not breaking confidences when I say we have been asked to make submissions on what could be done by the end of July. It is a tight timeframe.

One thing I will say is that at least we are having an opportunity to consult on it this time around, which we did not have the last time, when the 220 kg per hectare was agreed to without any stakeholders being aware of it. That is certainly a much better situation than we were in previously. It will be very challenging, however.

We have got to look at it now and say we are where we are. We have signed up to Article 12. We will have to figure out what sort of alternatives we could put in place where we could still try to satisfy the Commission and alleviate this blunt instrument that has been put in place. From our perspective, we have been having discussions with our own members and representatives on what we can do from a sectoral perspective. We could look at putting in place additional actions farmers could take that do not have that substantial or significant income impact. There are measures we can take that can certainly achieve that without looking at the alternative of 220 kg, which we know will have a huge economic impact on farmers. We are where we are. We will have to figure out how we can make the best of a bad situation. That is what the working group is there for. It is-----

Dr. O'Connell's point is quite interesting. If Article 12 had been brought forward a decade ago, there is no way we could have reached these targets. It is such a blunt instrument. It is very like the Leitrim scenario that has been discussed in the Dáil. It just proves how blunt it really is. I got the impression that the EPA is frustrated. That is why it produced the second map. The second map was not a part of the actual process; the EPA produced that off its own bat. Unfortunately, when Article 12 was negotiated, it was not fit for purpose, which has put us in the dilemma we face today.

I will ask Dr. O'Connell about page 11 in particular and the national trend published in the graph. I pushed the EPA on this issue. I tried to make the point that over a 12-year period nitrates went up by 0.7 mg. Will Dr. O'Connell give her opinion on that graph? Where does she think we are in the context of the information contained on page 11 of that report?

Dr. Aine O'Connell

For those who do not have the map, in 2010 the national nitrates average was 7.5 mg; in 2011 it was 7.4 mg; in 2012 it was 7.5 mg; in 2013 it was 7.3 mg; in 2014 it was 8 mg; in 2015 it was 7.7 mg; in 2016 it was 7.2 mg; in 2017 it was 7.7 mg; in 2018 it was 8.3 mg; in 2019 it was 9 mg; in 2020 it was 8 mg; in 2021 it was 7.7 mg, and in 2022 it was 8.2 mg. There is a variation from 2010 to 2022 of 0.7 mg of nitrate per litre. However, we had 1 million dairy cows in 2010 and 1.5 million in 2022. The peak was in 2018-19. That was a consequence of fertiliser applications and mineralisation as a result of the drought and, unfortunately, incorrect advice that was given to farmers at the time.

We cannot describe the trend here. This was something we highlighted at Moorepark Open Day 2023. People are making varying interpretations, depending on where they sit. At the open day, Teagasc stated that things were stable and possibly improving. The Department said they were stable, yet EPA representatives today said they are decreasing and are not in a good place. If proper statistics were put to this, as they are in the ACP where definitive trends are outlined and described, we would have a very clear interpretation of where we stand.

On the -1 or +1 mg/l, the Commission working document and the report the EPA has to submit to the Commission every four years outlines the way the trends are going. If there is a trend of greater than -1 to +1 mg/l nitrate it is considered a weak increase or a weak decrease in nitrate trends between two reporting periods which is two three-year rolling averages. It is a longer period of data capture and a stable trend is anything that falls within -1 and +1 mg/l. A very strong increase in declining water quality would be if nitrates increased by more than 5 mg/l between two reporting periods. None of us would want to see water quality in that space.

On page 11, it is important to note that even in the south east where there might be a little bit of a trend, it is still very hard to verify. Back in 2010, nitrates were at 12 mg/l. Therefore there is an inherent baseline because of the soil. It will be much harder to reach -----

That goes back to the piece of information that Mr. Herlihy gave about soil types and having nitrates in the soil.

Mr. Shane Herlihy

Absolutely. It is very hard to draw sweeping conclusions based on annual averages because there is so much complexity in the system. That has been evident in the Teagasc research in particular. A lot has been written on that. There is huge variability. Take a river sample, which is what we are talking about on page 11 which looks at fresh-water rivers. With annual samples, there will be samples collected in the winter when there will be a lot of surplus run-off and then there are samples that might be collected in the summer where there will be a lot of groundwater base flow coming in and then in spring and autumn there will be more of a mix based on what the weather is like. It all looks pretty stable to me which stands to reason when one thinks about it; yes, we have had more cows but there have been increased regulations which have kept this in check and there is a natural lag time for an impact on the land surface to filter into what we are measuring in the river. It looks pretty stable to me and that is what I would expect unless there were some drastic land-use changes. Even then, one would expect it would take time for that to filter through into what one was measuring. I think that makes a real challenge, particularly with the policy pressure we have now in terms of timing to show improvements in water quality for the water framework directive. That is a significant pressure that we are under. However, it is important to note that Ireland is not the only country that will be struggling to achieve good water status under the water framework directive. Most European member states will have difficulties.

I have two more questions. I apologise, the Chair has given me great latitude. First, on the amount of testing which the EPA went through earlier, it is an average of 12 per water body per year. I was trying to make the point about what is happening in the Timoleague catchment where we are testing once every ten minutes. I worked out that for every one test the EPA was doing, we were doing 4,368 in the programme down there. What is the appropriate level of water testing required to give an appropriate average for what we are looking at?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

We are obviously comparing slightly different things. The research catchments down in Timoleague and the other catchments under the agricultural catchments programme undergo a lot of scientific rigour with a real-time monitoring - it is every ten minutes, as the Senator says. We cannot expect that to be implemented at a national scale for all the water bodies we have. Monthly samples, one sample 12 times a year, are probably okay but we need to recognise they are a grab sample once a month. It is probably all that is available under funding for all the monitoring programmes but when we interpret the data, it is really important we understand what we are actually measuring and from what we are trying to draw conclusions.

Finally, on peer reviewing reports and standing over the data, what is the industry norm for peer review of reports like this?

Mr. Shane Herlihy

In industry, consultant reports would always go through a review process internally in the organisation where the author is reviewed by a senior member of the team. There is that internal process. Obviously, scientific research is subject to a lot more peer review because it is published and so on. There is a validity to the question raised with the agency around peer review of the report, particularly when it has such a bearing on policy that can affect huge sectors of the economy.

Science is a funny science. It can be interpreted a lot of different ways. I believe it is more of a statement. The big issue I would take from today, and the most worrying thing I would take away, would be the whole question of the lag time. Dr. O'Connell has nailed it there. They are saying we can see a change in a year, but actually we cannot. It takes longer. We have had the REAP scheme, ACRES, and the massive reduction in nitrogen last year due to price alone, never mind any other reason. If there is a worst-case scenario, however, and we do go to from 250 kg to 220 kg, and the results of all the actions that have been taken start manifesting themselves in 2024 and 2025, the narrative then will be that it was the reduction that caused them. Then we are on a serious slippery slope and it is not factual. This is the one point I am taking from today. This is where we are at and this is the danger going forward. If it is not factually correct, we must make every effort to make sure it is. Science itself can be interpreted in a lot of different ways and an argument can be put by both sides of a case. It struck me when that point was made that we would start seeing the results of actions that have happened over the past three to five years next year immediately after a potential reduction to 220 kg. Then the narrative out there would be "Look at what reducing the herd has achieved", and then we are on a serious slippery slope.

Senator Daly has given a very accurate summary there. We can argue about the frequency of the tests being set out and we can argue about the terminology in this report, but if you were to ask two experts, you can always get a different version of information. The bottom line is there has been huge investment in technology and huge buy-in to different farming practices. In today's discussion we have not even mentioned clover or multi-species swards and the impact these can have on chemical nitrogen. As Mr. Buckley said, if we are to keep the farmers on side to try to win this battle with water quality, we must give these improvements time to work, or whatever the correct term is. Banding of nitrogen will have its own impact but there is also the low emissions slurry spreading and many different things that have been taken on there, including the cambering of roadways, moving of water tanks and so on. There are so many different things that have been done. If those measures force it down to 220 kg, they could actually go under the radar. The improvement in the water quality that would follow would be attributed to the reduction in stocking rates and not to the improvements that have been made at farm level. That is the key message we must win in Brussels. We must give these improvements time to work. There has been serious farmer buy-in to these measures. We cannot emphasise enough the Timoleague case. There is a huge proportion of derogation for farmers and water quality is improving, which clearly shows the derogation in place for dairy farmers is bringing about a concrete improvement in water quality.

Dr. Aine O'Connell

It would be unfair of me not to mention that Teagasc was asked to model the impact of 250 kg to 220 kg on nitrogen loss. It was modelled that the nitrogen loss on a per hectare basis will be mitigated and would be 2.2 kg of nitrogen per hectare to a 1 m depth on a free-draining soil. That level of mitigation is very small when we consider that weather can have a variation of about 40 kg of nitrogen per hectare.

It is the order of magnitude of improvement which the reduction from 250 kg to 220 kg would bring versus the economic impact it would have on farms, whereby we have estimated that on a single farm alone, this would be anywhere between €6,500 and €18,000, let alone considering future debt, investments, borrowings and growth. It is important to realise that there are probably other measures out there which we have not finalised but that we are actively considering and thinking about which will probably bring about just as much or that magnitude of change of 2.2 which would not cost the sun, moon and stars and would not devastate farm families. It is very important we look at that. We should not be going after stocking rate when everything else has not been exhausted.

I thank Dr. O'Connell and call on Mr. Herlihy.

Mr. Shane Herlihy

I thank the Chair. I just want to mention this matter because the derogation was discussed during the Teagasc Moorepark open day and the fact that fewer and fewer countries are benefiting from the derogation. Denmark was specifically mentioned in that it has agreed to give up its derogation. When one actually looks at the water quality data - again we are just looking at averages - Denmark has a very different circumstance to Ireland when one compares groundwater and river water quality. Water quality is much better in Ireland than it is in Denmark. That needs to be borne in mind when the argument is put forward that Ireland is the only country left looking for a derogation. The fact is that we have very good water quality so we need to be using that argument when we are talking about seeking the protection of the derogation.

Our witnesses made a request earlier in the day that we would, in turn, make a request of the Minister. From my point of view, as Chairman, I am fully in favour of doing that. On the basis of what we have heard today, we will put together a request to the Minister. As Senator Paul Daly has said here today, given the time lag, the time we have to work is imperative to our argument. As the IFA president has said, among all of the EU members states we have a unique farming practice here and I believe that has also to be recognised. This stocking rate is part of our sustainable food production and we are completely different to the rest of Europe. Brussels must recognise that, as there is no one who grows grass or has that ability across Europe in the same way as we have here. In a time of climate change, where we see what is happening in southern Europe at the moment with heat; where we have sustainable food production we have to make our best endeavours to try to maintain that. At that, as I have said, we will commit to-----

If I can come back in for a moment, Chair, we should meet the Minister as soon as we possibly can.

Yes. We will commit to getting the message across from today's meeting to the Minister. It is imperative that we do that as we all want water quality to improve but we must also ensure that our dairy industry is allowed to continue its sustainable production of food and that our farm family structure is also protected.

On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for their contributions today on what is a topic of great significance and importance to us. We have committed to conveying the message which we have heard loud and clear here today and at other meetings to the Minister and to get fresh engagement at Brussels level to ensure that we obtain an outcome for this that allows our sustainable method of food production to continue.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.09 p.m. sine die..
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