Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 2023

Challenges Facing the Fruit and Vegetable Industry: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones. I bring to their attention that those giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Cathaoirleach's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Cathaoirleach in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of today's meeting is to undertake an examination of the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. In the first session, from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., the committee will hear from Mr. Mike Neary, director of horticulture, and Mr. Lorcan Bourke, fresh produce sector manager, Bord Bia; and Professor Thia Hennessy, University College Cork, UCC, and Professor Dolores O'Riordan, University College Dublin, UCD, Food Vision 2030 committee. They are very welcome. The opening statements have been circulated to members. I will allow the witnesses a maximum of five minutes to make their presentations or to read their opening statements, after which we will proceed to a question-and-answer session. I call Professor Hennessy.

Professor Thia Hennessy

I thank the committee for the invitation. I am going to talk about the work we conducted through the Food Vision 2030 committee, which was chaired by Tom Arnold. Unfortunately, he cannot be with us today.

As part of our deliberations in the development of the Food Vision 2030 strategy, we considered the opportunities and challenges facing the horticultural sector. Given the significant climate change-related challenges facing our largely livestock-based agricultural sector in Ireland, we felt the expansion of the horticultural sector presented significant diversification opportunities, as well as opportunities to reduce the contribution of agriculture to climate change. The committee noted that carbon sequestration-enhancing biodiversity, including pollinators and horticultural systems, offers many synergies and co-benefits to environmental, economic and social sustainability. We felt that the expansion of the horticultural sector is justified in the context of our significant reliance on imported vegetables and fruit, with 83% of our national consumption imported. It is also justified in the context of growing consumer trends towards the increased consumption of fruit and vegetables in Ireland.

However, notwithstanding these opportunities, the Food Vision 2030 committee also acknowledged that the horticultural sector was facing many challenges, in terms of the scale required to support a viable business in the sector, the high start-up costs for new entrants, significant labour shortages, as well as the availability and cost of such labour in what is a labour-intensive sector, and the weak position of the producer in the supply chain in respect of the price being paid for the final product, with the vast majority being sold into the food retail sector.

Taking these challenges and opportunities together, the committee came up with a major recommendation to “Develop a strategy to set out the road map for the horticulture industry to 2030”. In response to this recommendation in our report, the national strategy for horticulture was published in May 2023. I am sure the members of the committee will be familiar with the strategy, but I will remind them of the eight primary actions: strengthen the position of the grower in the marketplace, in the context of the very important economic challenge in this regard; develop a charter between growers and retailers; establish a framework for a permanent non-EEA seasonal workers’ scheme to ensure a reliable supply of skilled seasonal workers; review horticulture course availability; invest in research and development for the industry; develop better data and information; integrate horticulture back into the broader agricultural knowledge and innovation system; and support innovation and diversification.

I will reflect on this national strategy, speaking as an agricultural economist with more than 25 years of experience conducting agricultural economic analysis, most of which has been in the beef and dairy sectors. When we look at the horticultural sector, we see that our ability to conduct a similar type of research is extremely constrained. This is mainly due to the limited information available on horticultural production in Ireland. For example, we do not have good data on the costs of production, the scale of production and the price paid for the output. It is very difficult, therefore, for us to establish a baseline economic situation to allow us to measure how the sector is performing. If we compare this to the situation with the dairy and beef sectors in Ireland, it will be seen that we have very good data in that regard.

There are very good reasons for this being the case. There are a small number of growers here, approximately 200, with 50 of those being significant. When we are dealing with such a small number of producers, the data will, of course, be sensitive. It is difficult to protect the anonymity of suppliers when collecting this type of information. It is essential, however, that there is investment in research to allow us to collect better information. We need to establish baseline indicators of the economic sustainability of the sector and the environmental footprint. I say this because I think this is a good story for the sector in terms of the ability to diversify some of our more carbon-intensive sectors towards agriculture. The recommendations concerned with investing in research and development and data collection are important. The lack of available information is probably linked to the relative underinvestment in the agricultural knowledge and innovation system, AKIS, in the horticultural sector. Looking at the investment undertaken by organisations such as Teagasc, it will be seen it is much more significant in the more traditional sectors of agriculture than it is in horticulture. This is where the major opportunities are. We could have a significant impact in this regard if we had better information.

Moving to the issue of food waste and loss, I know this is of particular interest to the committee. EU data shows that approximately one third of food production in the EU is not consumed because it is either lost in the production cycle or wasted at the consumption stage. It is estimated that if food waste could be eliminated we could reduce global greenhouse gas emissions by between 8% and 10%. Reducing food waste, therefore, is a significant climate action. According to EU statistics, the majority of food waste is generated at home in households, so the education of consumers is greatly important. Ireland has the fifth highest level of food waste in the EU and is approximately 15% ahead of the EU average. The household level is again significant in this regard, generating more than 29% of food waste.

Research conducted by the EPA shows fruit and vegetables are the most commonly wasted food. There are particular opportunities for reducing food waste in this sector. A Teagasc study of consumer behaviour also found that fruit and vegetables tend to be the most commonly wasted foodstuff, again, most usually by households. Spoilage, expiration and overbuying are the most common reasons for food waste. The study recommends greater investment in awareness-building among consumers, more investment in food packaging to extend shelf life and freshness, and revised packaging formats by retailers to allow consumers to buy what they need.

An Cathaoirleach

I am afraid Professor Hennessy is out of time. The next speaker is Professor O'Riordan.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

Like Professor Hennessy, I speak from a Food Vision 2030 perspective. Horticulture is the fourth largest sector in Ireland in terms of gross agricultural commodity output value, with the fruit and vegetable sector valued at in excess of €500 million. It makes an important contribution to our economy. Irish growers face many challenges, however, a number of which I will highlight.

First is input price inflation. The cost of all inputs has increased, including labour, land rent, crop production and especially fuel. The second big challenge for growers is the power dominance of buyers, particularly the supermarkets, which has led to a downward pressure on prices from the retailer to the grower. Below-cost selling is a major issue for the sector. The third challenge is climate change. Its impact has been particularly evident this year, with a very wet winter and spring delaying the sowing of crops and reducing the days for growing and yield. This was followed by a drought in June and a wet July. The poor growing conditions affect the ability of growers to produce high-quality crops and the price and continuity of supply of fruit and vegetables. These pressures will inevitably reduce the margins and the attractiveness of the sector to support sustainable livelihoods. Unchecked, the trajectory could lead to an economically unsustainable sector and further increase Ireland's dependence on food imports. Support in the form of the horticulture exceptional payment scheme is very welcome but it is not a long-term solution to the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland.

Despite all these challenges, in line with the ambition of Food Vision 2030 for Ireland to become a world leader in sustainable food systems over the next decade, thereby delivering benefits for the sector, Irish society and the environment, horticulture has the potential to become a flagship sustainable food system in Ireland. A sustainable food system encompasses social, environmental and economic sustainability. On social sustainability, a diet rich in fruit and vegetables contributes to sustainable nutrition. Fruit and vegetables are an essential part of a healthy diet, providing an important source of vitamins, minerals and fibres. They provide multiple benefits, including protecting against non-communicable diseases such as cardiovascular disease and certain cancers. In 2017, 3.9 million deaths globally were attributed to insufficient fruit and vegetable intake. Fruit and vegetable consumption in the Irish population is far below the recommended intake of 400 g per day according to the national nutrition survey data from the Irish Universities Nutrition Alliance. To meet healthy dietary recommendations, fruit and vegetable consumption in Ireland must increase considerably, by approximately 40% for adults, 88% for adolescents and 80% for children.

Fruit and vegetable consumption also plays an important role in environmental sustainability. Diets high in fruit and vegetables are widely associated with increased sustainability. Furthermore, fruit and vegetable production plays a role in diversifying our land use, consistent with the recommendations of Food Vision 2030, and can contribute to carbon sequestration and biodiversity.

In terms of economic sustainability, horticulture, including both production and downstream employment, accounts for 11% of the total number of agrifood jobs and makes an important contribution to rural economies.

Actions are required to realise the opportunity for Irish horticulture to become a flagship food system and for Ireland to benefit from the nutritional, environmental and economic benefits of Irish fruit and vegetables. Consistent with my background and career in research and education, I will focus on the opportunity that could be afforded through research and innovation and by taking a circular economy approach. Ireland has a very strong agrifood research environment, with significant national funding dedicated to food research. The excellence of our researchers has resulted in very competitive performances in attracting European funding. We have a well developed food research ecosystem, with global recognition for its impact. Great advancements can be made if we take a food systems approach to our research and development. In the case of horticulture, this would involve capturing and addressing the challenges right along the food chain, including growing mediums, growth conditions, harvesting, packaging, supply chain efficiency, quality, nutritional value, the sensory quality of food, consumer preferences and market demands. We really need an integrated approach if we are to have consumer-driven products that are produced with economic efficiency in an environmentally friendly manner. Investment in research is timely as increased consumer demand for plant-based foods and nutritional health continue to be significant drivers of consumer food choice. The benefits of consuming locally produced foods are also increasingly recognised.

Research can underpin the generation of innovative, value-added food products. They are a source of many ingredients that provide an array of health benefits. The current demand for meat alternatives and a more plant-based diet provides opportunities to create value-added plant products. The development of innovative foods aligns with mission No. 3 of Food Vision 2030 to produce food that is safe, nutritious and appealing and is trusted and valued at home and abroad. A case study under Food Vision 2030 involved Monaghan Mushrooms' vitamin D-enriched products. We also worked with MBio on its mushroom powders to counter dietary deficiency, which are a value-added product.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Professor O'Riordan. The next speaker is Mr. Neary of Bord Bia.

Mr. Mike Neary

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to address the committee this evening on the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. The horticulture industry is an important sector of agriculture, with an estimated output value of €531 million in 2022 at farm gate prices. Horticulture food crops represent more than 80% of this output value, at €431 million, with amenity horticulture, that is, non-food crops, making up the remaining 20%, at a value of €100 million. The industry produces a wide range of food crops, including potatoes, mushrooms, field vegetables, fruit and protected crops, which are primarily sold on the home market. There is a key focus on the retail channel, although an important export channel exist for mushrooms that are supplied into the UK market. Employment in horticulture is estimated at 7,000 full-time in primary production, with a further 11,000 employed in downstream businesses.

Recent seasons have been challenging for the fruit and vegetables sector, with a number of contributing factors. This has resulted in overall consolidation within the industry, some grower exits and a reduction in the production area of certain crops. Existing growers are becoming more specialised and heavily invested to remain competitive in an increasingly challenging environment. Key challenges include the high costs of energy and overall higher costs for key inputs, the difficulty of securing sustainable returns from a competitive marketplace to cover increased costs and capital investments, access to and availability of an adequate supply of labour, particularly in the busy growing and cropping season, land availability to manage crop rotations, reduced availability of plant protection products to maximise plant growth and yields, and the cost and availability of growing mediums. These challenges all arise in the context of growing crops in a climate that can be difficult and challenging at times. We have seen that this year, with periods of drought followed by excessive rainfall, which have a significant impact on the field and harvesting operations.

Current consumer trends are creating opportunities to grow the demand for fresh produce through highlighting and reinforcing the role it plays in contributing to a healthy balanced diet. The Irish public is currently consuming below the recommended number of daily portions of fruit and vegetables. This presents an opportunity for growth, as already stated. In addition, as Ireland imports certain fruit and vegetables that could be grown here in season, and as climate change and Brexit pose greater challenges to international supply, there are and will be import substitution opportunities for horticulture in Ireland. Food security is important and horticulture should continue to play a central role in maintaining national food security for fresh produce.

Bord Bia collaborates and works closely with the horticulture industry across a number of programmes and initiatives. Bord Bia is a member of the Horticulture Industry Forum, which includes grower representatives and other State organisations. The forum, which facilitates co-operation among stakeholders, recently contributed to the National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027, which was launched in June. Bord Bia is implementing a number of significant three-year promotional campaigns on the domestic and UK markets to promote increased sales and consumption of horticulture produce.

These include campaigns for fruit, vegetables, potatoes and mushrooms on the domestic market and also for mushrooms in the UK, our key export market. Our Food Choice Matters campaign, which is underpinned by the Bord Bia quality mark, features horticulture strongly and, with a high level of recognition of the mark by consumers, it provides an important signal of the origin and quality of local fresh produce on the supermarket shelf. We also activate and support a number of school programmes that have the promotion of increased fruit and vegetable consumption and eating a healthy balanced diet at their core.

Bord Bia promotes and supports the amenity horticulture sector through our gardening promotion campaigns and the EU Green Cities programme, which is aimed at greening our cities and urban areas and creating sales opportunities for local plants. Bloom is our major gardening and food event. It is held for five days over the June bank holiday weekend every year and attracts over 100,000 visitors. It is a showcase for our food, drink and horticulture sectors and brings our food and plant producers front and centre with the public, building awareness and sales opportunities for participating businesses.

Bord Bia provides a range of client capability services on an individual basis to the industry. These include the development of marketing strategies, provision of market insight, building skills in the areas of category management, negotiation and digital and improving lean performance at business level. Bord Bia also provides support to many organisations and associations that support and represent the interests of the different sectors of horticulture.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for inviting Bord Bia to address the committee this evening. My colleague and I are eager to respond to any queries members may have. If we are unable to provide the required detail, we will follow up with the individual members. I thank members for their attention.

Senator Tim Lombard

I acknowledge and welcome this afternoon's presentation on the important issue of the challenges facing the fruit and vegetables industry in Ireland and particularly the issue of food waste, an issue I have been chasing for a serious period of time.

I will start with Professor Hennessy. I acknowledge her contribution to the Food Vision 2030 strategy. On where we are as a society with regard to food waste, I read quite a disturbing figure during the week. It was said that food waste contributes somewhere in the region of 8% to 10% of Ireland's greenhouse gases. If you look at that figure in the context of where we are going with other issues this committee is dealing with and other issues in our society, the need to look at a campaign on the issue of food waste is clear. What are Professor Hennessy's views on what such a campaign should entail?

Professor Hennessy mentioned that we were the fifth or seventh worst offender out of the 27 European Union member states. It is not great to be considered a laggard regarding food waste. Will she expand on where the problem actually is regarding food waste? Is it on the producer side as regards the amount of land, fertiliser, pesticides and labour being used for a product that might not even get to the shelf? It could be disposed of because it does not match certain marketplace criteria regarding size, shape or whatever else. On how households deal with food waste, there is over-purchasing at times but there are also other issues such as whether there should be a label indicating when a product is due to be eaten and how such labels are looked upon behind the actual marketplace. More important are restaurants and food outlets. These are a really significant issue. Professor O'Riordan might also comment on how we could run a decent proactive campaign involving all of the actors to ensure we reach our potential in reducing food waste.

I also read during the week that there is potential for the European Commission to lean on Ireland to make sure we have a waste reduction policy in place by 2030. Any information on that would also be helpful in this debate. Is the European Union going to bring forward recommendations regarding food waste? If so, do we have any indication of what they are going to mean to the marketplace? The headline figure of 221,000 tonnes of food wasted every year, which is a statistic from 2021, is very significant. It is an amazing statistic in many ways. We need a campaign. It could be argued that, when there has been so much talk about climate change and everything else, this is a very basic measure that could potentially address 10% of our greenhouse gas emissions. With the deepest respect, I do not hear it mentioned anywhere. I ask both Professor O'Riordan and Professor Hennessy for their views on that issue.

Professor Thia Hennessy

I thank Senator Lombard for the questions. The data I have reviewed would support his point that 8% to 10% of global greenhouse gas emissions are associated with food that is wasted. From a climate action perspective, it seems like an obvious thing to tackle. I agree with the Senator that it is not getting the same attention, here or at the EU level, as other aspects of climate change action at the agriculture and food level. He asked where the food waste is occurring. The EPA has done some significant research on this and has found that households are the biggest wasters of food. They are followed by the manufacturing and processing sectors, which account for approximately 28%. Restaurants, food services and retail account from 25% while only 7% occurs at the primary level.

On the actions growers can take, they are already quite efficient at getting product through to further points in the supply chain. Within the Food Vision report, we looked at some specific case studies. We looked at a potato growing company in County Meath where previously there had been waste associated with product that was not being accepted by its point of sale. It invested in peeling and chipping machinery and produced chips. It then invested in equipment to extract starch from the peel, adding more value in that way. When it comes to food waste, not all waste is equal in terms of how we make use of it. There is a hierarchy. Having waste consumed directly by consumers offers the highest value and the hierarchy goes down all the way to composting. Waste may be used for other food ingredients or animal feed and so on with composting being the lowest-value method of dealing with food waste.

Looking at where waste is occurring, there is obviously opportunity for investment in manufacturing and processing. There are also opportunities in the restaurant, food sector and retail group. The Senator will be familiar with the work of FoodCloud, which focuses on food redistribution. It is at that part of the supply chain that it can have an impact. Globally, technology is also being used quite a lot to deal with food waste at this part of the supply chain by making consumers aware of products that are available for collection or purchase at a discounted price and so on. Education at the household level is really important. We also see many food businesses investing in research into food packaging because packaging that extends shelf life can extend the period in which the consumer can make use of the product. However, such packaging is often not compostable but made of single-use plastic. The issue of minimising food waste while also minimising packaging has proved to be a tricky one.

The Senator asked what we can do. Within Food Vision 2030, we made a number of recommendations. These include the implementation of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications' waste action plan, the development of a national waste prevention roadmap, which now exists, and further research into the extent of food loss at the primary stage, although I again emphasise that this is already the part that is probably most efficient. Much of the roadmap is about developing methodologies to record where food waste is occurring and developing actions to tackle the issue at those points. I will now pass over to Professor O'Riordan.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

Professor Hennessy has covered where the major waste is coming from as you move along the chain, with the level of waste being particularly high in retail and supermarkets and at that whole level. With all of the strategies she has talked about, intervention is needed at every stage. Due to the perishable nature of fruit and vegetables, even with the best implementation of strategies, waste is inevitable. I still believe there is an opportunity. Within Food Vision 2030, we commit to a circular bioeconomy and the Government is committed to that. Due to the very nutritious nature of their ingredients, fruit and vegetables lend themselves very well to the circular bioeconomy. Professor Hennessy gave the example of extracting starch from potatoes. There are many other high-value ingredients in this waste and, if we invest in technology and research, we could convert this waste to valuable byproducts or, indeed, upcycle it. A typical example of such upcycling is the conversion of misshapen apples that consumers may not want to buy into apple juice and adding value in that way.

That can be taken on to a much more sophisticated level. Some work is going into it but there are not the co-ordinated research programmes in the horticultural area, for example, that one would find in having value-added products, for example, coming from the dairy sector. There are very good opportunities from a circular bioeconomy point of view to be applied to the horticultural sector. That said, of course it is essential to reduce food waste and take all the measures that Professor Hennessy referred to.

Senator Tim Lombard

Regarding the European dimension and what I read about in the papers about the Commission moving towards 2030 targets, one or both professors might give me an update on where they believe those proposals are at the moment. Are they aware of them?

Professor Thia Hennessy

I am aware that in the UN sustainable development goals, there is an ambition to halve food waste by 2030. I am not familiar with the European Commission policy on that but I know there is much work ongoing on harmonising the data collection to record a baseline, because obviously one needs a reliable baseline if one wants to halve the waste level. That is where much of the pan-EU work is ongoing at the moment. I am not familiar with specific policy targets for the EU.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

The Irish Government has set a target in line with UN goals to reduce our food waste by 50% by 2030.

Senator Tim Lombard

By 2030. Okay. I thank the witnesses.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank the witnesses for attending and for their opening statement and submissions, which contained detailed and helpful information. I have a couple of questions for each group of witnesses. In their opening statement, the witnesses from Bord Bia mentioned grower exits and the reduction in the production area of certain crops. Do they have any more information? I am conscious that the point has been made repeatedly about the lack of research. Do they have any figures regarding those matters as referenced in their opening statement? They also referred to the importation of fruit and vegetables that we could grow here. It is clear from all the opening statements that we can and should be standing on our own two feet much more, when one thinks that 40 or 50 years ago, people only ate what they grew in their gardens. That was the standard and much of that has been lost. How much can be done about what we can grow here rather than importing it? We should always seek to grow anything we can here rather than importing it. Bord Bia's three-year promotional campaign is, of course, important. That is for both the domestic and UK markets. I wonder if it can be wider than that or is it just domestic and England?

Mr. Mike Neary

On the first point about grower numbers and grower exits, the current status of the potato sector is that we currently have about 300 commercial potato producers in the country. In the 1990s, we had something like 1,400 growers. That is an example. Taking the fruit and vegetable sector as an example, we did a census in 1998 and there were about 400 growers. Currently, we estimate on the commercial growers side, in field vegetables, that there are about 60 growers. There are roughly 250 fresh produce growers in the country. Over quite a number of years, smaller growers have exited and larger growers took up the production. In many sectors, the actual area stayed similar for a number of years. What we started to see happening in more recent years is that we have a smaller number of growers in each sector and if one of those growers is lost, then we start to lose area and acreage of crop as well. That is why there is a concern. The small growers have gone. The larger growers, which we call commercial growers in Ireland, would be most threatened.

We talked about the level of imports. In 2022, we imported about €850 million worth of produce, amounting to about 600,000 tonnes. To qualify that initially, there is a certain amount that we cannot produce in Ireland. Roughly €577 million of that value was fruit, which is the biggest import source. That includes exotic fruits such as bananas and oranges. There is seasonality. At certain times, we cannot grow crops, so we have to have imports coming in. If I am asked if there are crops we can grow in season here, we definitely can grow more. For example, we have been doing work to try to look at import substitution opportunities, such as growing more fresh potatoes for the chipping trade. That import figure is roughly 50,000 tonnes per year. We are working in collaboration with Teagasc, the IFA and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to try to encourage the uptake of the production of potatoes that can go into the fresh chipping trade. That is starting to get some traction and we are starting to make progress.

Another example is apples. That is a huge import. We import 65,000 tonnes of apples every year. We are about 3% to 4% self-sufficient. That is what we have been focusing on. There are challenges with growing apples in our climate but we have some very good apple growers that are supplying the market and get a good response from the marketplace. New orchards have been planted in Ireland over the last couple of years. It is a small area that is starting to build. That is now making progress on the Irish market. I will give an example of one grower in north County Dublin who, in conjunction with this market, was looking at growing other crops. He went into growing garlic and chillis, as an example.

In the context of the broad import issue, we see opportunities and some traction has been made, but there is a long way to go. The key thing is that it has to be viable for somebody to do. Ultimately, we could grow more carrots or more brassica, as was mentioned, but what crops have decreased? For example, in cauliflower production and some of our key brassica lines, we are growing less. We have one leek producer left in the country. We can grow those crops really successfully in Ireland, but at the end of the day, it needs to be on the basis of people doing it because they are confident about the next two or three years, they can invest in the long term and make a margin from it.

There are opportunities but there is a broader context. Professor O'Riordan mentioned the eight cross-cutting strategic objectives of the new horticultural strategy, which has called out where progress needs to be made. There are issues regarding, for example, the whole supply chain and adding a collaborative partnership right across that supply chain, from producer through to retail, where everybody benefits. The consumer benefits, the retailer cannot benefit, but the grower and facilitator also benefit. Part of the work of the new strategy is to sit down and work across the supply chain on how that collaboration can be built going forward.

The Deputy mentioned promotions. The whole market is our main focus because, outside of mushroom exports to the UK, which adds about €130 million a year, we only supply pretty well the domestic market. As was mentioned earlier, our consumption levels of produce are only half what they should be. In an ideal world, if we ate seven portions a day, we would double the market size. A big part of what we are doing with the new campaigns, on which we are spending roughly €1 million this year, is to try to engage with younger demographics in particular - the millennial cohort - to increase the consumption of fresh produce and, in the context of our own quality markets, to try to call out local Irish seasonable sustainable produce. That is really what the message is all about. That is why we are focused on the domestic market. The UK market is our only export market, which is why we are focusing on promotion there.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank Mr. Neary. I have a question for Professor Hennessy, although some of these questions might be for her and Professor O'Riordan. In her opening statement, Professor Hennessy gave a figure of 83% importation. We talked about that. The reality is that it is not about seeking markets for export. It is about reducing what we are importing by growing our own and doing more ourselves. She mentioned the cost of production and the need for much more data and research. Does she see the agrifood regulator playing much of a role with regard to horticulture, particularly, as has been said, with regard to cost right across the supply chain, which is important?

Professor Hennessy emphasised the need for research. Does she see Teagasc as the lead on that? Who does she see as responsible for getting that work done? Does she see that as the number one priority in order to kick off trying to grow and develop our horticulture sector? Does she have concerns about the current state of the sector? There is obviously a need for action.

There may be some crossover in my question for Professor O'Riordan. She mentioned in her opening statement that below-cost selling is a major issue. Perhaps there will be a role for the agrifood regulator with regard to that. I am aware of some supermarkets that offer maybe a four- or five-year contract to some fruit or vegetable growers. Perhaps that could be looked at to give the grower some certainty in investing and continuing to do what they do and to guarantee them a decent price, which is important.

I also refer to the line about horticulture having the potential to become a flagship sustainable food system in Ireland. I agree, and I think we all agree, with that. Will the witnesses expand on what that will look like? They also mentioned the exceptional payment scheme, which is welcome but not a long-term solution. What is the solution? I have the same question about research. They made a point about the integrated approach, which I think is right. Finally, what would it look like to use the circular economy approach for fruit and vegetables?

Professor Thia Hennessy

I will start with some of Deputy Kerrane's questions about the role of the agri-food regulator. That is to be welcomed. The focus on fair trading practices between producers and retailers is probably more important in this sector than any other. Establishing a decent price brings me back to my comments about the lack of information and data. We need to understand production costs and how the fuel crisis impacts on the price of bringing carrots to the market, or how a late frost would impact on a decent price. We need that information to inform the agri-food regulators. The agri-food regulator will rely on independent evidence-based advice in terms of what is a decent price. That relates to the Deputy's next question, which is about the research needed and who should do it. She also asked about the role of Teagasc. I emphasise the role of Teagasc to the extent that there needs to be investment in agricultural knowledge and innovation systems, AKIS. If we look at the other sectors of agriculture we see a strong trust relationship between farmers and their farm advisers through Teagasc. Through these types of relationships we can get the valuable data we need about the sector. I see a role for Teagasc but equally for the other research performing organisations in the country, like the universities. The Deputy asked if I am concerned about the sector. I am concerned. It bothers me when I walk into the supermarket and can buy a bag of carrots for 29 cent the week before Christmas because they are on promotion. I know financially and environmentally it costs a lot more than that to bring those products to the market. When product is underpriced like that you are just fuelling the food waste problem because people will buy it and say that because it only cost 29 cent it does not matter if they throw it in the bin. It is a vicious circle, so I am concerned about the price at which fruit and vegetables are being sold. That is obviously impacting on the producer as well. Hopefully the agri-food regulator can play a role here.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

I will pick up on the research approach that would be needed. Where we are seeing progress from an innovation point of view in other sectors is where there has been collaboration between the private sector, Teagasc and the other research performing organisations in Ireland. We have a lot of expertise in many of the universities, and the new technological universities that could contribute to the overall requirement to advance horticultural knowledge. A key part is the role Bord Bia can play in terms of how critical it is that producers are investing in developing innovative products that someone will buy. There is no point otherwise. It is key that you start with good market intelligence, and a reverse engineering approach where you decide what products are needed and then go back along the chain. You are going beyond what might be considered traditional food research. For example, there is an adaptation of artificial intelligence, AI, within the dairy sector. There is no reason why the horticultural sector cannot be more progressive in terms of what and how it is doing from an energy consumption and sustainability point of view. There are gains to be made along the chain. However, we do not have a report sitting there to guide the growers and tell them where the big opportunity is. We have heard from Bord Bia about people who have changed and started growing chilli and garlic. There needs to be a systematic review of what could be sold, and modelling of what it would be effective to produce. It is about looking at the whole chain, looking for opportunities and taking the waste into account. We have to take a circular economy approach. If there is by-product from everything being produced, we need a use for that. You have to look at the full cycle of the fruit and vegetable and the value of it along the chain.

Packaging also needs to be looked at. There is a reason we package fruit and vegetables. In a lot of cases, as Professor Hennessy has said, it is prolonging the shelf life and reducing waste. It is about optimising packaging so it is minimising its effect on the environment while maximising the shelf life of the fruit and vegetables. In other sectors there is an active focus on what the market and consumer wants and what the export markets are. That is really needed for the horticultural sector. The technological support will come in behind that.

Senator Paul Daly

I also welcome the witnesses. I will be brief. I have a general statement turning into a question for all of them. If and when we are talking to growers or producers there seems to be a common trend in what they see as the issues for their business. Deputy Kerrane has touched on the retailer side of things, and how prices can be and are driven down with things like loss leaders. Professor Hennessy spoke about carrots and parsnips selling for ridiculous prices the week before Christmas. That sets a trend and belief in people that food can be produced for that sort of price, which has a knock-on effect on the entire agricultural sector but is detrimental on the vegetable side. Another point always raised is labour. A lot of fruit and vegetable production is labour intensive and seasonal. Labour will always come up as an issue. In some sectors at the moment the big issue is the growing medium, and the transition from peat to whatever is supposed to be the next peat. There was no just transition there and they were left in the muck. The fact is, that like most producers in the agriculture sector, they are price takers and there is always downward pressure on their product.

Senator Lombard mentioned the regulations and standards. A carrot is a carrot, irrespective of whether it has to be almost spirit level straight. That is a major issue, because it involves grading and massive investment in grading equipment and machinery. In a lot of cases the so-called abnormal and out of shape carrot can end up being waste. I know a lot of these regulations are from the EU, but can we stand up to them or do anything about them? How do we overcome them? That list is what growers see, from their perspective. The weather and seasonal nature have also been mentioned, but they are uncontrollable. The others are things we should be able to control. How would the witnesses propose to square those circles for the growers of Ireland?

Mr. Mike Neary

I will comment first on a few issues before going to Professor Hennessy. The retail side has been mentioned previously. From our perspective and role we see engagement with the retail sector as absolutely critical. In the context of the Department strategy, the first objective set out is about strengthening the position of the grower in the marketplace. The second is about the implementation of a charter that would spread across the whole supply chain from grower to facilitator through to the retailer. Part of that process we are engaged in is about having conversations to see how a more balanced partnership can work across the supply chain. This takes something important into account. A lot of people were shocked earlier this year when during certain weeks we did not have produce on supermarket shelves, in particular back in February and March. There is now a greater focus on security of supply. That leans into having good local seasonal supply from local producers and local growers. That provides an important agenda item going forward in terms of having conversations, and engaging with retailers and others in the supply chain.

We run a number of SME programmes with three retailers, namely, Lidl, Aldi, and Musgrave, where we try to get smaller businesses on to the supermarket shelf with their products and build business opportunities. There is a piece of work to be done there. That is something everybody is aware of and certainly something we will be very proactive in with our engagement with retail as part of our remit.

The labour thing has been very well called out because many growers would have called out labour, as well as costs, as their biggest issues. A permit system was in place. Four years ago horticulture was allocated 1,000 permits and those permits have now been exhausted. Another tranche of permits is now required for horticulture to fill the growing demand for labour in that sector.

On seasonal agricultural workers' scheme, we do not currently have such a scheme to cover horticulture. Action 3 in the strategy calls for a framework to be put in place to have a non-EEA seasonal agricultural workers' scheme for horticulture. That scheme is being progressed and I hope we will see progress made over the next year to two years. The scheme is critical for the horticultural sector because people need labour when they need it and in the peak growing and cropping season one needs to have flexible labour. To keep workers all year around when there might be a downtime is a cost for the business and makes it more difficult.

Another thing to call out is the apprenticeship scheme for horticulture that was launched with Teagasc earlier this year. The scheme was a while coming down the track but it will be very important because it will, hopefully, provide a formal training mechanism for people who want to work in horticulture. The scheme will attract talent and people will get a formal qualification, which was not available before. That is looking more at the longer-term piece but we need to get new talent and fresh blood into the horticultural industry.

The issue of growing mediums has been called out. That is a major challenge. Certainly it is a cost issue for many businesses. This committee has debated peat and peat availability. As has been said, the sector was shocked because the non-availability of peat came much quicker than was anticipated. All of the industry recognises that there is a direction of travel which sees the removal of peat. The challenge for the sector is allowing a transition period to have peat available, until research is carried out, to see what are the best solutions for their growing crops and to use whatever those mediums might be going forward. In fairness, the growing media sector uses 30% of wood fibre but it still needs peat available and that is a cost because it comes in, potentially, from outside of Ireland. So there is a cost and sustainability issue. That medium thing is still a challenge.

A final point was made about standards. European standards are set down in regulation and that is a huge challenge. One thing that is hard to predict, from a grower's perspective, is that if there is good weather and a crop comes in quicker then there might be a surplus down the line. One solution that could be examined is having a conversation with the market to get the product promoted and moved through the market rather than let it go into waste. There are issues at grower level which would help that situation and earlier there was talk about waste on farms. If there was enough labour available then crops can be ready to be harvested when they are ready. Conversely, if there is not enough labour then there will be wastage.

Another area that was called out was the availability of plant protection products for growers. There is reducing armoury in place for growers currently. If that armoury is not there to protect the crop, then pests and disease will happen thus leading to more waste in the fields. These are areas that can be progressed. They will help the overall reduction in waste and provide a better situation at producer level.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I agree with all of the speakers so far and thank them. A lot of my questions have been asked. I totally agree with Senator Daly. As he said, when peat was removed straightaway as part of the just transition it caused major problems. Removing peat cannot be done in the horticultural sector. Food sustainability is one of the most important things after energy because people must eat. We can see what is happening to the geopolitical systems around the world and, unfortunately, things are not going to get any better and we must be able to produce our own food.

I agree with the agrifood regulator because we know that supermarkets monopolise the whole situation and farmers cannot continue to produce their products at cost price. What actions would our guests recommend that the Government takes regarding the price of fuel or alternative energy? I ask because it has been mentioned that the horticultural sector needs glasshouses to grow plants and for work indoors and outdoors. Other than the horticulture exceptional payment scheme, what additional actions are necessary to ensure the economic sustainability of the industry?

On Bord Bia, as has been said it is recommended that the Irish public consume a certain amount of portions of fruit and vegetables on a daily basis. Has Bord Bia taken initiatives to popularise the consumption of fruit and vegetables as a lifestyle choice, especially among young people and people who do not use TikTok and social media?

Mr. Mike Neary

In terms of promotion, our current campaigns are very much targeted at the millennial age group who engage online because millennials do not watch as much television or read newspapers as much as people did in the past. In terms of the communication mechanism, a lot of our promotional campaigns are online using social media and influencers. The initiative has met with some good success. We do a lot of action in schools because we are concerned that the next generation are under-consuming produce. Bord Bia has had the Food Dudes schools programme for a number of years and this year we will get to 1,700 schools and 300,000 schoolchildren. That is direct provision and education around trying to engage around getting portioned consumption up to where it should be. We think that young group is an important part of the overall promotion.

I now ask my colleague to comment on promoting vegetable and fruit consumption among millennials.

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

A millennial is a person who is between 20 and 35 years old, and includes young parents and parents of young children. Bord Bia has two millennial programmes that promotes the consumption of fruit and vegetables, and potatoes. We partner with France, Belgium and some trade associations on the Continent. We receive 80% funding from the EU for significant campaigns across public relations and social media. We have developed two websites called fruitnveg.ie and potato.ie. Our job is to land exciting new recipes, not traditional ones, with millennials. We have 320 potato recipes, which is a lot, and we have 32 fruit and vegetable recipes. For promotion we use significant channels and millennials trawl Instagram for their information. We are advertising and putting articles in place. This is all courtesy of 80% of funding from partnership across the EU and our own industry provides 20% of the funding.

Professor Thia Hennessy

On the agrifood regulator, over the last 12 months there has been significant inflation in food prices in general and consumers are not very happy about that. It is probably not the fruit and vegetables that contribute to that and it is probably more the processed products. When I hear the agrifood regulator mentioned quite a lot in the media, people's expectation of that particular office is that it is about delivering lower prices for consumers. So finding a balance between what is a good price for producers and what is a price that helps to alleviate the current cost-of-living crisis will be a very difficult role for the office of the agrifood regulator. There is great resistance among consumers to higher food prices. The retailers and heads of the food companies will say that consumers want more nutritious food and environmentally-friendly food but want to pay less for it. Therefore, the conundrum is that somebody must pay for that. The agrifood regulator has the challenge of balancing consumer expectations and delivering a fair price for producers.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

The difficulty in getting data has been mentioned.

I think Mr. Neary said there are 50 major growers out there. How is it possible to get them all to co-operate and give FoodVision 2030 the proper information it needs? That seems to be vital. I also asked about fuel, heating and energy.

Professor Thia Hennessy

On the growers, we need some investment in research and to develop the relationships with those growers. Teagasc would have some of those relationships already. A research project would have to include the required assurance that data would be anonymised and treated as carefully as is already the case for other sectors of agriculture. The roll-out of that national farm survey framework for horticulture is also required. That is possible; it just has not been done yet.

On energy, I am not familiar with what supports are there at the moment to allow growers and producers to invest in renewables, for example. I am not sure if grants are already available. That is outside my area of expertise.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Professor Hennessy said much of the waste is in the home. Reading some of the information and research, it seems that a lot was to do with the machinery. Are there any numbers? A lot of waste happens during collection and harvesting. Is there any connection between the growers and the people who are designing the machines? Perhaps the growers could go to the designers and tell them they have a problem. Perhaps they could innovate.

Professor Thia Hennessy

I am not aware of any research in that area.

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

There is no research but we are supporting Teagasc's lead on a €5 million food waste proposal under Horizon 2030's farm to fork strategy. It is providing marketing solutions to reduce food waste. It is in the negotiation stage at the moment but is hoping to estimate the amount of food waste along the fruit and vegetable chain. It is all very new and tentative. Teagasc is looking at waste along the food chain and marketing standards, which we have talked about. I have first-hand knowledge that waste happens at the packer level because of the specifications required.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

We have only a few minutes. The point I was trying to make is that there should be a connection between the people who are producing the machinery and those who are harvesting. There is a problem there and a lot of produce is being lost. There must be some innovation that can be done with the machinery. There should be a connection between the two.

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

They harvest it significantly as well. The grading is the issue. There are standards required for grading. Even in the past week or so, I was looking at carrots and parsnips being graded. There are definite grades for the catering trade and for what is acceptable at the supermarkets, and guidance for what does not make the grade. Some people call those the wonky vegetables, the stuff that is off-grade.

Senator Tim Lombard

What happens to the wonky vegetables?

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

Typically they end up going to animal feed or FoodCloud and people like that.

Mr. Mike Neary

The programme that FoodCloud piloted last year was called the growers' initiative. It is on the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, website. FoodCloud collected 30 tonnes last year. It is now rolling out a full programme and hoping to target 60 tonnes this year. Horticulture is one of the challenges. Because growers are spread around different areas, the questions are where to bring the waste and how to get it to the market. FoodCloud is connecting local communities and groups with individual growers who might have produce to dispose of. Initiatives such as that are important. FoodCloud is doing commendable work in that space.

Deputy Michael Ring

I have a few questions about the dating of fruit, in particular, and food in general. I like Keelings Fruit. I am unusual. It is mostly women who do the shopping but I like shopping. When I am going home on a Thursday evening, I call into certain supermarkets and buy a bit of fruit. Last week or the week before, I bought two punnets of Keelings berries. I came home and was disgusted because they were out of date and not nice. That is not the fault of Keelings. It is the fault of the supermarket.

We talk about regulators and there is only one in this country, which is the Government and the way it regulates businesses. All regulators do is to come in and make life difficult for businesses. They are not there when they are needed. They are not there for the energy crisis or the food sector. They are not regulating the supermarkets. What has gone on with the supermarkets over the past two years has been rip-off Ireland. They have ripped us off. I have seen the way they have dealt with fruit. Of course they might run out at Christmas and have a few cheap drinks and carrots. With their approach to goods overall in the past year, I do not how the consumers put up with it. There has been no regulator for the food industry. I thank the members of the panel for coming here this evening. Do they find the regulator helpful? Is the regulator really there or is it only there in name? I do not see a regulator operating in the food sector. I will give the simple example of water. I buy water with lemon and lime in it. It cost 32 cent one year ago. Does the Chairman know what it now costs in Tesco? I do not mind naming the company. It is rip-off Tesco, which tells us all how great it is and the offers it has. It now costs 65 cent. I do not want to be told not to name the company. Tesco is the name of the company and it is a rip-off. Where was the regulator to regulate that? There is no way that any product, particularly water with a bit of lime in it, could go up from 32 cent to 65 cent in a few months. I cannot get an answer to that.

Does Bord Bia talk to the Department of Education about young people? I was glad to hear Mr. Neary mention apprenticeships in the horticulture business because they are important. Does Bord Bia talk to the Department of Education about teaching young people about food, vegetables and how to cook? I know that if you cannot cook it on the mobile phone, it will not be cooked. That is the way this world has gone now. It is all mobile phones and if you cannot order food on a mobile phone or cook it on a mobile phone, it will not happen. It is like going to the bog. I said last year that Deputy Eamon Ryan was getting excited about a bit of turf. I said that if the turf could not be cut on a mobile phone, it will not be cut at all because people will not do it if it is not on a mobile phone. Is Bord Bia talking to schools to try to educate young people about good quality Irish food? We have great quality food and Keelings and companies like it produce very good quality Irish food. I compliment Keelings for that. However, I would like to see more effort being made to educate young people.

I will ask Bord Bia about promotion. Has it done any recent promotions about Irish food and particularly labelling Irish food? I know there might be an EU regulation in that regard but there are ways and means of getting around that. Such a practice would mean that when you go into a shop, you know whether the produce is Irish or Spanish or whatever it is. That should be there.

The dating on produce should be bigger. I am saying that to Keelings and companies like it. I would not be a regular shopper although I like shopping. Unless you are a regular shopper, you would not be inclined to look at dates. I forgot and made the mistake of only looking at the date when I was at home instead of looking at the date when I was in the supermarket. That is the question.

In respect of pricing, to be fair to the growers, they are being ripped off by multinational companies. They are being tied into contracts. Is there anything the regulator can do to supervise what growers are getting paid and what price the supermarkets are selling goods at?

What is happening with regard to food safety? I was listening to the radio recently and heard a professor talking about a new ant, or something, that has come into the country. It can get into food and buildings. What is Bord Bia doing about safety in food?

An Cathaoirleach

The regulator was not on the agenda. If our guests are comfortable answering that question, that is fine, but if they are not, they can concentrate on the other questions.

Mr. Mike Neary

It is not something I have direct experience of or that we deal with directly. I appreciate the question. I will comment in response to some of the examples the Deputy shared with regard to pricing. We have tracked, through Kantar Worldpanel, the real price of produce over the past 20 years, taking inflation out of the equation, and the graph has fallen significantly in real terms. There has been a slight increase over the past six months with inflation. Generally speaking, the average retail price of produce has, year on year, been devalued. The price is far lower while costs have gone the other way. That has led to the price squeeze in the middle and the challenge for producers in that regard.

The Deputy asked about talking to schools and the Department of Education. I mentioned earlier that we have a fairly comprehensive schools programme. We engage with many schools and teachers, and, through that, many parents. I mentioned the schools programme. We draw funding down through the EU schools scheme in the amount of close to €2 million per year.

We have national funds of €2 million. Through the programme, we are implementing Food Dudes and there are 300,000 children participating. There are 500,000 children in national school, and there are 1,700 or 1,800 national schools. Therefore, we are engaging proactively. It is about education, consumption and healthy eating.

We also support the industry through Incredible Edibles, which is implemented by Agri Aware. Again, it is all about growing, origin, how to utilise food and how to come up with some cooking inspiration. Another programme is Healthy Heroes. We collaborate with the Irish Bread Bakers Association in that regard. It is about having healthy food in your lunch box. It is a critical area in which we are involved deeply.

With regard to labelling in supermarkets and what consumers are seeing, we monitor very closely the quality mark from our perspective. We do a lot of market research on it, determining what consumers look at regarding origin and the message they get from that. Ninety-four per cent of consumers recognise the Bord Bia quality mark. It is so important when it comes to labelling. The mark is widely recognised and promoted right across all categories, including horticulture. The recognition level has not dropped. There is a huge trust factor involved. We regard the mark as a critical flag of recognition for the horticulture industry on the supermarket shelf, and that is why we have engaged in considerable promotional activity with the food choice campaign over the past six months or so. If asked, consumers sometimes automatically say they buy Irish, but the key thing is to read what is on the label, be aware of it and not make an assumption about it. Sometimes, it can be a bit disappointing at this end, and that is why the Q mark is so distinctive and recognised by consumers. That is where we focus our attention. We are engaging in a lot of activity on it.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

Safefood also engages in very important promotional campaigns, some targeted at children and some at parents and others right across the board in terms of promoting a sustainable, healthy diet. Its website has many recipe ideas and many promotional campaigns.

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

Another campaign that we run is Best in Season, which complements our food choices campaign. Best in Season is a programme funded uniquely by Bord Bia and it highlights produce as it comes into season across the seasonal calendar. We create a great buzz about the arrival of, say, new-season strawberries and new-season field vegetables. I am not sure whether any members saw that last Friday was National Potato Day. The programme is tied in with all the occasions, and we will highlight Hallowe'en. The programme is for a broader public audience, not just the younger audience. We are always keeping consumers on alert.

On communicating with young people, we are reaching the millennials through the influencers that they watch on their Instagram feeds. One of the briefs is to give them cooking skills, determine whether they have the right kitchen equipment even to do what is required, and communicate about fresh, local, in-season Irish produce. We create recipes that will excite them.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Our guests are welcome. I have a great interest in this area. Coming here this evening in the hope of getting a few questions in, I asked myself what the response would be like. Actually, the group is quite enthusiastic. I firmly believe that unless we take this by the scruff of the neck, the business will be gone.

How many of our guests have eaten an Irish tomato this year? What would they say about the flavour of an Irish tomato in comparison with a Spanish, Dutch or Moroccan tomato? To me, it is way ahead. There is absolutely no flavour to be had from the imported ones I have mentioned, yet the Irish ones cannot be got in the supermarkets. I am aware that the supermarkets will say they cannot supply the Irish ones the whole year round, but the reality, based on the figures, is that the tomato business in this country has virtually collapsed. Only 10 ha of ground is devoted to tomato growing this year. It has never been so low. What I am trying to get at is that while we hear so much about sustainability and import substitution and are told to be very good about the environment, I cannot understand why we are not pumping millions of euro into subsidising Irish horticultural businesses. It makes perfect sense. Every time a plane or ship comes here to unload fruit, it is not good for the environment. Would it not make perfect sense to do as I say? The big problem with many of the growers is that they do not have the money. Growing just does not benefit them anymore; that is the reality. There was a fantastic tomato business in north County Dublin, for example, and there were also such businesses in other parts of the country.

How many of the guests have eaten an Irish apple this year?

Mr. Mike Neary

Absolutely.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Would they agree that the flavour of an Irish apple can be far better than that of many of the apples that come in from abroad?

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

It is juicier, definitely.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I would much rather have an Irish Cox's Pippin than a Pink Lady, given the taste of the Pink Lady apples we import. Last year, we imported 70,000 tonnes of apples into a country that can probably grow apples better than any other in the world. The story is incredible. We need to get a hold of this business. For several years, I attended Warrenstown, a fantastic horticultural college. I believe other places did horticulture. There was a college in Termonfeckin. I do not know whether there is still horticulture at Kildalton College. We have allowed the wipeout of our horticultural colleges. The argument will be made that what is coming in through the technological universities around the country, be it in the west or south, will suffice. It is not the same because there is not the same focus on horticulture. I want to get the delegates' views on that. Has the rebuilding or expansion of the horticulture industry been damaged by the fact that we allowed virtually all our dedicated horticulture colleges to disappear?

Mr. Mike Neary

I will make some initial comments. We have seven tomato growers left in the country. We call them high-wire growers. They are great growers and very invested in the business. They have major operations, and there is a high cost from an energy perspective. We produce about 4,000 tonnes of tomatoes annually and import about 25,000. That is the size of the market. Over the years, we have fewer growers, but the ones who are growing are excellent. When the Senator says Irish tomatoes cannot be seen in some supermarkets, it is because they are not there. That is the reality. The growers are in some parts of the market and do a super job but the confidence needed to get more growers to invest would be significant. There would be a huge capital investment.

On education, Professor Hennessy said that horticulture is somewhat in the shadow of other sectors. While it is great to be here today having this discussion to give horticulture a focus, it has probably received less investment and focus than other sectors. We are very passionate about the industry, have worked in it for many years and believe in it. There are great growers who can do a great job. We must not forget that the industry is still worth €500 million per year. After the beef, dairy and pigmeat sectors, it has the highest agricultural output value. It is more than in the sheep and tillage sectors, which are great sectors, so it has an important place. It warrants its day in the sunshine, given the focus on plant-based foods and more healthy diets. Regardless of whether we invest in education, research, more data collection or promotion, we cannot put enough into it. That is probably why we are all focused on it.

I am not an expert on the educational side but, as somebody who did a horticulture degree many years ago, I believe that part of the review will cover what is already done through education and how it can be improved and built upon to deliver for future talent for future people. I do not think you can ever have enough of it. Even in the dairy sector, more research and education are needed. It is exactly the same for horticulture. I agree with the Senator's comments in this regard. We have a great industry with some great people in it but we are at a crossroads where, if we start to see it contract further, we could lose elements of it. We still have an opportunity to turn it around. In this regard, I refer members to the roadmap set out in the new strategy launched in June. If the eight key strategies are progressed as they are set out, it will make a major contribution. That will be important for all of us.

Professor Dolores O'Riordan

It can also be a vicious cycle, from an educational point of view, in terms of the attractiveness of programmes. If the sector is not seen to be doing well, parents and students will be less interested in studying it. We constantly see that. Whatever sector is buoyant is very much out there. It is seen to be very productive, with good incomes and salaries associated with it. Inevitably, employability is important to people in deciding what course they will pursue. With the way the horticultural sector is in Ireland, I suppose it becomes less attractive as an educational programme as well.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I got in by getting a scholarship in my county. I thought it was a great idea. Counties promoted it and people went for scholarships. I was lucky to get one. I thought that was a fantastic idea because it put a focus back on it in every county.

We spent €50 million on importing tomatoes in 2022, €23 million on onions, €26 million on cabbage and €12 million on carrots. Thirty per cent of the fruit and vegetables we imported in 2022 could have been grown here. We are even importing potatoes. It is simple. One of the crops that one can grow very well here - and it is one of the healthiest crops now and is seen as a real healthy food and a very good source of antioxidants - is blueberries. The crop - the witnesses can correct me if I am wrong - is worth €1 million to this country. We import €20 million worth of blueberries. Go into the supermarket tomorrow morning and one will see labels from Peru, Brazil and Chile - all these places. It drives me daft when I see these labels all over products. It is horrible. Blueberries grow very well in acidic soil, as Mr. Bourke will be aware. At one stage, Bord na Móna carried out trials for growing them. I have argued, even with the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, that it would be a great crop to get people growing here. People could be given good subsidies to grow it. I want the witnesses' opinion on that. Why are we importing so many blueberries? It is such a nice crop to grow, and an easy crop to grow in the country.

Mr. Lorcan Bourke

I will talk about import substitution because we have not given the committee the backdrop to the scale of production we have in Ireland compared what happens abroad. Probably 20 or 25 years ago, we had a scenario that the competition used be local, parish or county. It used be Dublin, Cork or Wexford. With the sophistication and spread of the supermarkets and supermarket chains, the European Single Market and improvements in logistics, and the big scale of operations in the UK, Holland, Spain and all over Europe, you can go to where the sun is the best, the soil is the best, there is plenty of water, labour is relatively cheap and produce on such a scale that the unit cost compared with that of the grower in north Dublin, Wexford or wherever is such that he or she just cannot compete. Increasingly, this is what is happening, and has happened, with different crops. We have had a reduction in numbers. Scallions would be an interesting example. Ten years ago, there were ten scallion producers. There is one now. These are the big dynamics that are happening. It used to be growers competing with growers. Now it is supply chains competing with supply chains. That supply chain might start in Morocco for a couple of months. It moves into Spain. It might move up to the Netherlands or the UK. It is all the same companies and they are able to deal big. There is a supply-chain scenario that has evolved over time and that is why we have seen that reduction in the number of growers. It is not an individual grower anymore. It is a supply chain that is competing.

On the positive side, maybe the time for Irish produce has come around with the increase in fuel prices, etc., and people looking more towards eco-solutions and where their produce comes from. Ultimately, and I have done research over years, price is a big persuader of consumers. Whether it is Bord Bia quality mark or origin of this or sustainability of that, consumers can be led by price and whoever is in charge of the price is a big controller.

Professor Thia Hennessy

One of the courses I teach in UCC is food business. We start off talking about comparative advantage. Ireland has a comparative advantage in growing grass. We do it very well. We have the lowest cost of production for dairy products in Europe and one of the lowest in the world. I suppose that explains why we are where we are. It is cheaper to import fruit and vegetables and produce dairy products here. It comes back to the Senator's point that subsidies are what are required. I agree with him completely on that.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Mr. Bourke is correct. Many of those supermarket chains are multinationals. They are buying not just for Ireland; they buy for Europe when they are buying, and they are getting a real low price.

An Cathaoirleach

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their contributions. We will suspend to allow them to exit and the next set of witnesses to take their seats.

Cuireadh an coiste ar fionraí ar 6.56 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 7 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 6.56 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I bring to everyone's attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

I welcome Mr. Pat Farrell, projects manager; Ms Aoibheann Connor, senior technical manager; and Ms Lynne Sweetman, managing director of the retail division, Keelings:. A number of our members have left to go to a vote in the Seanad but they will return to us. I invite Ms Sweetman to give a five-minute opening statement and then we will have questions and answers.

Ms Lynne Sweetman

I thank the members for the invitation to address the committee on the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland, specifically in the food waste aspect at both consumer and production stages of the food chain.

Keelings is a 100% Irish-owned, third generation family business that has been operating and innovating within the fresh produce industry since 1926. Over the past 97 years, the business has evolved and grown internationally. We now employ more than 2,700 employees across 11 business units in seven different countries. In Ireland, Keelings employs approximately 1,400 people in full-time and part-time roles across our businesses, supporting the retail, food service, wholesale and flowers business. In addition, we recruit approximately 600 seasonal horticultural workers.

On our Irish farms, Keelings now specialises in the production of soft fruit and top fruit across 182 ha, including 20 ha of glasshouses and 70 ha of polytunnels. While strawberries are our main crop, with approximately 200 million berries produced each year from both heated and cold structures, Keelings is one of a few Irish farms growing and supplying raspberries, blackberries and blueberries. We believe there are opportunities to grow and supply more Irish soft fruit and apples to the Irish consumer with the correct support measures in place.

Since the beginning, Keelings has always focused on research and development to produce the best quality produce while innovating to extend the Irish growing season. In 2021, we launched our new purpose, Better Food Better World, and as a team we continually strive to make food and what we all eat better, through what we grow, and the quality improvements and innovations we make.

The horticulture industry is the fourth largest sector of agriculture in Ireland and is an essential industry, supplying local seasonal produce to the Irish consumer. The horticulture sector has a value of €529 million. We support Government policies to develop and sustain the horticulture sector, as it benefits both the local economy and aligns with national health objectives. Keelings supports the Department of Health’s, Healthy Food for Life, new healthy eating guidelines and food pyramid, which encourages everyone to eat more vegetables, salad and fruit - up to seven servings a day.

We welcome the new National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027. While we are optimistic about the opportunity for this sector to grow by 30% to €688 million, numerous challenges facing the industry must be addressed. Most importantly, we must implement policies that allow Irish producers to achieve a level of competitiveness against European and third country producers. In general, the cost of producing horticulture crops in Ireland, due to economies of scale and higher input costs, tends to be above other countries. These cost differences have been exacerbated in recent years due to inflation. All horticulture sectors have been impacted by the rise of input costs over the past two years.

The horticulture exceptional payments scheme was introduced in 2022 to support the sector against the impact of soaring input costs, however, the soft fruit sector was excluded. The recent announcement of a further support package for the sector is welcome given that heated soft fruit crops are included on this occasion. Continued Government support will be required while input costs remain elevated.

We recognise the focus of the hearing today is specific to food waste and so we will highlight some of the initiatives we are working on to combat food waste. However, there are also significant challenges in this area, and we will detail the supports required. Regarding initiatives on food waste, in June 2023, Keelings pledged to take action to reduce food waste by signing the food waste charter. This charter is an Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, initiative to halve food waste by 2030 under UN Sustainable Development Goal 12.3.

Keelings has worked with Food Cloud since 2016 and we support its vision: “A world where no good food goes to waste.” We are proud to partner with this social enterprise to transform surplus food into opportunities. Since we started to work together, Keelings has donated fresh produce, which has supported 132 charity groups. More than 40 tonnes of food has been redistributed, the equivalent to 95,238 meals. We look forward to continuing this partnership to support future fresh produce donations.

I will now deal with the challenges leading to food waste. In general, we are experiencing more extreme weather events leading to volatility in crop production programmes. For example, this July was one of the wettest on record in Ireland, and the damp and humid conditions led to higher fruit waste levels on farms. Government support is required to invest in technologies, infrastructure and crop varieties to help mitigate the effects of these extremes in weather.

The horticulture industry is an extremely labour-intensive industry, with labour costs accounting for up to 50% of total variable costs. It is also increasingly difficult to get sufficiently skilled workers to harvest the fruit. If fruit cannot be harvested, it will lead to high levels of food waste at the production level. To address this issue, the Government will need to introduce proposals to support vulnerable sectors to mitigate the impact in labour issues. The proposed introduction of a bespoke seasonal worker scheme for the sector is also necessary.

The ability to produce certain crops economically is being affected by the availability of certain crop protection products. It also leads to an increase in the incidence of food waste as crops are unfit for sale due to pest and disease damage. In Keelings, we practice integrated pest management, IPM, on the farms with the use of preventative practices along with cultural and biological controls. Bees and other pollinators, along with natural predators, are essential to the workings of the farm. However, IPM can only truly function with the integration of targeted actives in cropping programmes. There must be a level playing field within the EU and true harmonisation where we have access to the same products as our European counterparts in the same climate zone as Ireland. We welcome the work of the committee that has been formed to make progress in this area, but it must be properly resourced and true harmonisation must be delivered.

A key industry concern is securing alternative commercial outlets for fresh produce during unanticipated surplus production peaks, particularly due to inconsistent weather patterns. During these peaks there is significantly more product than the market can consume and it is uncommercial to export. In Keelings we have minimal amounts of class 2 products and to avoid waste we either work with retailers to adjust specifications or sell it sell through our farm as jam packs. As part of any national strategy on food waste we need to develop the valorisation of all surplus and class 2 products in the fresh produce sector. In this regard we need to look at investing in new technologies and innovations to extend the shelf life of fresh produce.

The national strategy proposes to bring all stakeholders together to produce a written charter between growers, consolidators and retailers, and increase consumer demand for local, in-season, fresh, quality fruit, vegetables and plants. We welcome this development and believe it will increase education on local seasonal produce but it could also be used as a forum to raise consumer awareness in the area of food waste and how it may be reduced at retail level.

While existing funding mechanisms such as the EU producer organisation, PO, scheme and the scheme for investment aid in the horticulture sector are vital for the sector, there must be a State-led and co-ordinated approach to progress the required initiatives, which I will detail. These can fund research and the valorisation of so-called waste produce. This support should be channelled through the existing Government agencies with responsibility for these areas. In addition, the remit of Enterprise Ireland should be broadened to include primary horticulture as mentioned in the national strategy document.

We need investment and strategy to adapt and develop technologies to automate harvesting tasks within the horticulture sector and mitigate the impact of climate on production. We need to develop plant-based food options, particularly by adding value to the primary fresh produce. We need to investigate new plant breeding technologies and variety selection, as well as conducting research into new methods to control pests and diseases. We also need valorisation of food waste and surpluses through investment in technology and equipment, and adequate resources at customs entry points, ports and airports to assist in the timely administrative processing of fresh produce imports. Due to the perishable nature of fresh food, it is imperative that this is available on a seven-day basis and completed in a timely manner, which will minimise food waste.

I again thank the committee for the invitation to address the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland, specifically on the food waste aspect at both the consumer and production stages of the food chain. At Keelings, our vision is to inspire more people to enjoy fresh produce and we remain committed to growing and sourcing the best quality fruit and vegetables while implementing measures to reduce food waste. We welcome future collaboration on the action plans to support the national horticulture strategy and we support initiatives that promote investment within the horticultural sector in Ireland that will support jobs, communities, food security and overall access to healthy fresh produce. I am joined by my colleagues, Aoibheann Connor and Pat Farrell. Together, we will be happy to address any questions the committee may have in relation to the industry and the Keelings business.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. Before I go to the members, I note that Keelings is at the coal face and is operating internationally. Do the witnesses think the Irish consumer will pay a premium for Irish produce?

Mr. Pat Farrell

They will do that in certain areas with a certain awareness. As members are aware, Keelings has a brand and we notice there is an awareness around that and it is possible to get a premium for Irish product. It is difficult for the main outside root crops, like carrots and potatoes, or for strawberries and similar products. When there is less product available in Ireland or grown in Ireland, it is difficult to identify that a product is Irish and to get consumers to pay a premium. We need to raise awareness of the national horticulture strategy and, in fairness, we are working with Bord Bia in collaboration on EU fruit and vegetable campaigns, using the Bord Bia label, as noted earlier. There is an awareness but we need to raise that awareness and get it over a greater line of projects.

An Cathaoirleach

Without a premium, it is hard to see how we can increase our influence on the market.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Chair is 100% right. As we detailed earlier, our input costs are higher due to our location and various other reasons. You need a premium. It is difficult. We do not have the economies of scale and we do not have a mass market to compete fully in horticulture. However, in certain areas, people are willing to pay a premium so we must work to show the benefits of local produce, jobs and so on in order to put out a more positive message.

Senator Tim Lombard

My apologies. I missed the opening statement as there was a vote in the Seanad. I want to ask about the labour issue and how Keelings is dealing with that. It is a very significant issue in the industry at the moment. We heard in a previous contribution that 1,000 work permits were granted several years ago but that cohort of work permits is now fully taken up, according to the information we are given. Will the witnesses give an indication of where Keelings is with regard to the labour shortage at seasonal times, if there is a labour shortage, and how that impacts the industry? They might indicate what is required with regard to the Department moving on permits to ensure there is the potential to make another tranche of permits available to the industry.

With regard to the food waste issue, which I mentioned previously, I note the submission mentions Food Cloud, which I believe is a significant development. It was stated that Keelings has been working with Food Cloud since 2016. The witnesses might elaborate on the potential this might have going forward and how the Food Cloud element might impact on retail shops. Is there potential to have a designated shelf that might be appropriate for, say, wonky fruit or veg, depending on what the item is? Do the witnesses believe that is part of the Food Cloud vision going forward and is it another element that we need to look at?

We heard previously that 8% to 10% of greenhouse gases in the State originate from food waste in particular, so it is a very significant issue for us. The witnesses might give an indication of what Keelings is doing with regard to the potential for lowering the level of production of waste and where we are going on that issue of minimising waste.

The industry has been through very tough years, particularly with Brexit and its effect on the mushroom sector and peat, which are significant issues. We have gone from having 400 major growers down to 200, with 50 very major growers. Where do the witnesses see the market ending up in ten years time? Where do they see the number of operators in the market? I spoke to a gentleman who produces potatoes in Cork. He sends them to Dublin to be distributed nationwide, so the same potatoes go up the road and back down the road, and he often asks what is the carbon footprint of those potatoes. The witnesses might indicate how those issues in the marketplace could be looked at.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I will deal with the labour issue and my colleagues will deal with the other matters. As we said, horticulture is a very labour-intensive sector, especially with regard to fruit and mushrooms. In general, we still have to pick the fruit and it is not for the processing sector. We find that, despite some perceptions out there, we need a very skilled labour force to harvest our fruit. In the context of food waste, during the height of summer and even in September, temperatures were up to 27° or 28°. That produces a major flush of fruit and because it is a perishable product, certain crops, for example, raspberries and strawberries, have to be picked that day. We need workers who can pick that fruit in an efficient manner and get it picked within a working day, so it is very important that we have skilled workers to do that.

Second, not only do they have to get the fruit picked, but with a lot of product, half the job is getting good fruit produced and then getting it to the market. It is no different to producing milk from a good dairy cow, good potatoes or a good field of barley: you then have to harvest that crop and keep the quality up to the time it gets to the consumer. When strawberries are grown initially, especially the first flush of strawberries, the skin tends to be weak and soft. We either have to stem pick those strawberries, which takes longer because they have to be picked off the stem, or, if we have very skilled pickers, when the skin gets tougher, we can roll pick, as it is called. These are two different things and, obviously, we need very skilled and dextrous people to do that.

We are lucky with our seasonal workers because, in most years, we get people returning again. They come mainly from Bulgaria at this time but every year it is more difficult to get people to come back. There are other opportunities in Europe and while it is great that economies are going well and there is almost full employment, it creates a problem for us. It is no different to any other sector, such as the IT sector here in Ireland. Because it is a competitive sector, we want to get the best of the best and we want access to the most skilled people. Every company wants that.

Work permits were mentioned. We want to access the same labour pool as companies in the UK, Germany or Spain. They have access to bespoke seasonal schemes so they can basically get workers from any part of the world and they can pick the best of the best, and certain nationalities are better at certain jobs. That is what we are asking for. It is in the national strategy and we support the general idea that there is a need for the introduction of a bespoke seasonal workers scheme. I know there are the two pilot schemes, which are extremely welcome, but we need one that is bespoke for the soft fruit sector, where we have people for four or five months of the year, when we require them. It suits them to come to Ireland for the four or five months and to then go home again. They want that. They do not want to live in Ireland full-time, and it is similar to how Irish people travelled years ago. I hope that answers the question.

I believe there is a work permits Bill going through stage three of the Oireachtas or something like that. I think it is the Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Like everyone else in horticulture strategy and as per the national strategy document, we would welcome a bespoke scheme. Like we said earlier, I am not looking for handouts or anything like that. If other European countries have access to these schemes, should it not be a level playing field? We are in a Single Market. We welcome the move by the Government and all Oireachtas Members on the new Teagasc apprentice schemes. It was introduced for horticulture. We have been looking for that for a long time. We have now registered with Teagasc. It is a step up again of another skilled worker in agronomy and areas like that. To be fair, we must welcome those policy developments.

Senator Tim Lombard

I wish to ask about FoodCloud.

Ms Aoibheann Connor

Yes, I can take the FoodCloud question. We have worked with FoodCloud for quite a while. Our main goal is to not have to send surplus food to FoodCloud. Our goal is to try to maximise all of our class 1 fruit. We have different types of food waste. Depending on what the food waste is, that affects the channel you can utilise. If we have surplus, our choice is FoodCloud. There are other defects that we would like to utilise more such as wonky fruit, misshapes or scarring on fruit. There is potential in that regard, perhaps not so much in the soft fruit industry but in other products like potatoes, there need to be more outlets. We have a very small market in terms of second-class - there is no frozen outlet. There needs to be something along those lines. On food waste, it is minimal in terms of specifications, as such, and we try to utilise as much as possible.

Ms Lynne Sweetman

Our food waste varies by type of product and season. While there are several drivers of food waste, most recently, our primary contributor is weather, which has seen an increase in food waste. Unexpected sun can result in surplus fruit and poor weather can result in disease in the crop. We put that into jam packs in our farm shop and the additional surplus goes to FoodCloud. That will become more of a challenge over the years to come with the climate becoming more volatile.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

On the type of energy in use, is Keelings into solar panels or wind energy? Its costs must be very high as it has to dry a lot of fruit.

Mr. Pat Farrell

We have two methods for the shoulders of the season because we supply strawberries from roughly St. Patrick's Day to the middle of November, or we try to anyway. We are even looking at technologies to expand the shoulders of the season because it would expand Irish production. To do that in the shoulders of the season, you have to add some heat to the crops because it is outside the season. That is just a fact. If it came from Belgium or any other part of Europe, heat would be applied as well. At the moment, there are two forms. We get our heat from the traditional boiler method - gas. We are lucky enough to have a combined heat and power, CHP, unit. That unit is classed as renewable energy. You use the gas but from that gas, heat and electricity are produced. There are two elements. From the gas going in, you get almost 85% or 90% efficiency. That is very useful. By the end of this season, I hope, with funding through the producer organisation, we plan to install a heat pump system. That will be from electricity. Part of it will come from our CHP, which is also renewable. If we need some from the grid, we hear talk that a lot of that is renewable wind energy. That will also reduce our need for boilers. We have other plans in place to put solar panels in at two of our sites, one in County Louth for next year and, I hope, in County Dublin perhaps next year or the year after. Our heat pump system will nearly run off the electricity from the solar panels because, with the development in technology, even in February, March and April, if you get bright days or even when there is diffuse radiation on cloudy days, more energy is generated with those technologies. We have a lot of plans in those areas. We currently have a renewable CHP. We have immediate plans this year as well.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Does Keelings have any access to innovation research, through the Government or otherwise? Does Keelings need that?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We have a certain amount. In fairness, we must thank the Government in that regard. I saw in the budget yesterday, and there is general cross-party support, for a package of about €14.1 million. Some of it may be existing funding; we do not know the details but it is very welcome that it was kept. Through the producer organisation, as I said, there is up to 80% funding for actions in the environmental area. That is from the EU and it is a step forward to help us to move down the environmental route with EU financial support. As the Deputy said, it is required to make that step or leap. Second, there is the scheme for investment aid in commercial horticulture, fully funded by the national Exchequer, which is 40% funding or even greater for solar panels and so on. They are very welcome. It is easy to use words like "co-ordinated collaboration approach", but we probably need unity through bodies like Enterprise Ireland and Teagasc for a collaborative approach in which likes of Teagasc in the Ashtown Food Research Centre or other areas or universities come up with bespoke technologies. As a company, we do a certain amount of research and development but we do not have a huge area in that, unfortunately. We do not have the finance. The Deputy is right - we need it to be Government-led and more policy-led.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Mr. Farrell said there must be a level playing field within the EU and through harmonisation, where we have access to the same products as our European counterparts. Will he elaborate on that? What same products was he talking about?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We are talking about crop protection. You might use synthetic or chemical active products to control pests and disease. In Keelings, our first thing is prevention. It is a bit like food waste. You try to prevent it in the first place with very good varieties, agronomy and growing practices but after that, no matter what you do, there is a certain amount of pests and disease. Our primary action is to use biological controls, integrated pest management and natural predators, which we have on the farm. You can buy in other predators so you do not have to use chemical control. Notwithstanding all that, you have to use a certain amount of controls to control pests and disease. It is no different from a human - you may not want to take medicine but you are forced to at a certain stage. We use that but we do not have the same access as other countries. Holland, for example, which is in the same climate zone as us, has access to a broader range of active products than we have, for various reasons. We need a level playing field. If the retailer says to us that a Dutchman can produce it more cheaply, we say yes, but we point out that he has access to different crop protection products from us. We are in a Single Market, as I said when I spoke about energy or work permits. If a grower in Holland has access to certain chemical actives, so should we. To elaborate on that, we spend a huge amount on both natural pollinators like bees. We have up to 90 hives on the farm. We would never use a chemical product that would harm those bees because it would harm our crop. We would have nothing to pollinate. Notwithstanding all that, at times you need to be strategic and surgical. You might use a chemical active just to get on top of a pest or disease. We need fair access, like everyone else in the European Union.

Senator Paul Daly

I welcome our guests and apologise at the outset - there were three votes in the Seanad so I missed a large part of the contributions. If I mention anything that has already been dealt with, please do not hesitate to let me know. I can go back on the transcript and look at the previous answers. I heard the debate on labour, which was on my list. Following from what the witness said about crop treatment, does Mr. Farrell ever consider the gene editing road in that regard or CRISPR/Cas9, as opposed to using herbicides or pesticides? As opposed to genetically modified, gene editing is a big debate in Europe at the moment.

Mr. Pat Farrell

The Senator is right. It has moved out; in a past life, I would have. It is not about genetically modified organisms, GMOs. There is a move within the EU that CRISPR technology is considered in a different area because you do not introduce new genomic into a product; you just slightly alter the genetics. I am not completely au fait in fruit but the Senator is 100% right. It comes into dealing with climate change. By using CRISPR technology, it means that a product might be genetically changed so that it can be immune to certain pests and disease.

As to whether it has a huge area in fruit, I am not sure about cropping, but the Senator is 100% correct. It is a way of reducing the need to use chemical products and so on. We would be fully behind the idea of any new technologies like that. It is very welcome that, at an EU level, that has been acknowledged that in the past year. If we did not have some of these technologies, we would not have had a Covid vaccine as quickly as we did. The same applies to food security, increasing our sustainability credentials and so on.

Senator Paul Daly

To follow on from Deputy Mythen's point about Keelings’ power or heat generation, has it ever considered anaerobic digestion? There has been a lot of discussion of the circular economy and within the larger horticultural and agricultural sector, the byproduct is a good nutrient. If you were taking slurry from a dairy farmer, that would be a win-win situation for everybody. Has Keelings considered that route?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We have looked at it, although not hugely, and the volume of waste we have on the farms would not be sufficient to run a digester. Moreover, as the Senator will be aware, not everything can go into an anaerobic digester at the same time. There is a science behind it. Nevertheless, if there were one in north Dublin, for example, it could be used by us and other people. Given that there is a big horticultural area in that part of Dublin, that could feed into an anaerobic digester. In Northern Ireland, one or two companies use waste food products, along with crops, silage and other things, for renewal. I think we would be 100% behind that. We have looked at it, and there probably is funding through producer organisations and so on, but we would not have the scale necessary. As we said earlier, if there were a collaboration between a number of companies and there were a better policy behind it, there would certainly be potential for the food product and waste to generate electricity. I agree there is great potential in that regard.

Senator Paul Daly

I mentioned the following in the previous session and it may well have been covered before my return. It relates to contracts with the big retailers and outlets. Keelings is probably big enough to be able to kick the table on its side when it is doing a deal, but for smaller suppliers - this may even affect Keelings - we hear a lot of stories of big retailers driving prices downwards. This was discussed in the previous session, more from the perspective of vegetables as opposed to fruit, but in the run-up to Christmas, you can walk into a shop and buy carrots, Brussels sprouts or whatever at ridiculous prices. That puts pressure on the market and the supplier but it also portrays an image to the consumer that this food, whether it be a fruit or a vegetable, can be produced for that sort of price, which in itself has a massive knock-on effect on the whole mentality and attitude of consumers as to where their food comes from, what it costs to produce and what it would need to be sold at to make a profit for the primary producer. Does Keelings have any issues with that? In the case of mushrooms, where there was a fixed contract when Brexit happened, the value of sterling fell and the contracts were fixed at sterling prices, which brought that industry to its knees and almost wiped it out overnight. How is Keelings fixed with regard to contracts and the circumstances that have changed in recent years, such as the war in Ukraine and input costs rising overnight, given that companies may be in fixed contracts with major retailers, which hold a lot of clout and power?

Ms Lynne Sweetman

There is no denying it is a challenge at the moment in terms of inflationary costs and the costs of production. We are in a position where we supply the major retailers 12 months of the year, both from Irish production and from imports. Our biggest challenge relates to the cost of production and what we can do in Ireland to mitigate some of those costs of production. There is work to be done on educating the consumer. To go back to a point the Chair made, there is the question of whether an Irish consumer will pay a premium for an Irish product. We have to educate the consumer in that space to try to show why it is so important to buy local-----

Senator Paul Daly

That is the point I am making about the below-cost or loss-leader selling. It gives the consumer a misleading image and they do not realise it is a loss-leader. They think a carrot can be produced and put on the shelf for 29 cent a pound or whatever.

Ms Lynne Sweetman

We are not in that same position as those who supply carrots or other vegetables. We work with the retailers on the cost of production, what we can do to mitigate that cost and what we end up having to pass on, ultimately, to the consumer.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for allowing me to sit in on this session. I am not a member of the committee but, representing north County Dublin, I am very interested in the horticultural industry. I was lucky to visit Keelings’ plant last year with the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, where I met its CEO, Caroline Keeling, and saw the wonderful production facilities it has. The visit was really insightful and impressive. We discussed many of the challenges facing Keelings’ business, and one issue that was raised related to housing for seasonal workers. Has any progress been made on that? Is the issue as acute as what Keelings faced 12 months ago? At the time, we spoke about the challenges in that regard and about the company perhaps developing its own housing.

Mr. Pat Farrell

As everyone knows, accommodation is still a major problem and the situation has probably deteriorated slightly. We assist our seasonal and other workers in finding accommodation and so on. It is a matter of public record that we went to Fingal County Council, which, in fairness, was unique on this, made proposals and gave outline planning for bespoke accommodation for seasonal horticultural workers. We have not progressed that further because of limitations such as the fact that, similar to when I talked about the level playing field, the accommodation would need to be excellent and fulfil all of a person’s needs. We all want the best of accommodation, but some of the standards or the protocol make it prohibitively expensive to build bespoke accommodation. Without kicking to touch on this question, we ask members to look at what is done in the Netherlands or Germany, for example, where legislation has provided for bespoke accommodation for seasonal workers, and everyone agrees it is up to standard. It is fair and is very suitable for workers. Maybe some of that could be introduced into Irish legislation by looking at very good examples on the Continent, especially in northern Europe, where it is common to have bespoke accommodation for seasonal workers. That could be built into our legislation in order that if someone applies to build bespoke accommodation, it will have to fit certain standards. At the moment, the standards in Ireland make it prohibitively expensive to go ahead with doing it.

Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee

If that were changed, would Keelings be in a position to develop housing?

Mr. Pat Farrell

We would certainly be willing to look at it. In the current climate, there is a need to think of the common good and the public good. If we can get more private companies to get into providing accommodation, that will free up more accommodation for everyone, so there can be a win-win for everyone.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses for attending and giving us their perspective on the status of the horticultural industry. I propose we suspend the meeting to allow them to exit before the next set of witnesses come in.

Sitting suspended at 7.38 p.m. and resumed at 7.42 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

I bring to their attention that witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence given to the committee. This means that witnesses have full defence in any defamation action from anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse comment should be made against any identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by them, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

In this final session, we will hear from representatives of Macra na Feirme. They are Ms Elaine Houlihan, president, Dr. Liam Hanrahan, national agricultural affairs chairperson, and Dr. Maria Snell, senior policy and research officer. They are very welcome. I will allow them five minutes to make their presentation. We will then proceed to a question-and-answer session.

Ms Elaine Houlihan

I thank the Chairman and members for the invitation to speak on the topic of challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry in Ireland. I am president of Macra na Feirme. I am joined by Dr. Liam Hanrahan, chairperson of our agricultural affairs committee and Dr. Maria Snell, senior research and policy executive at Macra na Feirme.

Horticulture is a very important sector for society, economics, and the environment. Its importance stems from being Ireland's fourth largest sector after dairy, beef and pigs in terms of gross agricultural commodity output, with an estimated value of €477 million at the farm gate. Horticulture has the potential to be a leading sector as regards its green credentials. Horticulture and its preservation and expansion presents an opportunity to positively target carbon emissions and enhance sustainability of food systems.

The sustainability of Irish food chains, in which our primary producers play a vital role, is crucial in the wider policy context, with our Government and the EU setting ambitious targets in this regard. Food Vision 2030 sets out bold targets for Ireland to become a world leader in sustainable food systems delivering benefits for the sector, society and the environment. Food waste is recognised as being one of the major global challenges in achieving a sustainable future. For example, the Government has committed to reducing food waste by 50% by 2030, in line with the UN sustainable development goals. Food waste and loss can occur at each stage of the food supply chain, including primary production, processing, retail and consumption. Commonly, food loss refers to those losses at the early stages of the food supply chain in production and processing. The term food waste, however, applies to the later stages of the food supply chain associated with retail and final consumption in respect of which behavioural change is key. Our focus will be on food loss from the farmer's perspective, and key considerations in this regard.

In Ireland to date, farmers do not routinely record waste and have difficulty in providing estimates of food waste and losses. According to the 2022 EPA report, Food Loss and Waste from Farming, Fishing and Aquaculture in Ireland, in 2021 an estimated 53,000 tonnes of food waste was generated at the primary production stage in Ireland. This represents 7% of the total waste generated, of which horticulture accounted for the largest proportion. An EPA-funded report in 2019, Reducing Commercial Food Waste in Ireland, stated that vegetables are the most wasted food type in supermarkets at 20%, followed by fruit at 16%, bread at 15% and meat at 11%. By comparison, the retail and distribution sector accounted for approximately 75,000 tonnes of food waste in 2021. This includes food waste from supermarkets and smaller grocery shops, service stations and general retail, as well as food waste generated by food and beverage wholesale companies.

Food waste is one of the many challenges facing our fruit and vegetable sector. However, we also need to bear in mind the other challenges it faces, such as labour shortages and costs, climate change and weather forecasts, access to land and to finance, and diversification opportunities when organic farming. Food waste is a problem with economic, environmental and social implications, making it both important and complex. Prevention of food waste and loss should be a priority. This requires primary producers, together with actors further along the food chain, to work more closely together in order that costs can be more equitably shared across the supply chain. This is important to promote increased fairness in price for primary producers and allow for greater transparency in our food supply chain. If a fair price is not urgently sought, which acknowledges the risks from weather and inflationary costs, then the business viability of this sector is under serious threat. This will have serious consequences for all as we need our primary producers to ensure we have the food required to nourish our growing population. We face global food security challenges and, therefore, we need a thriving local fruit and vegetable sector. We must now all play our part to ensure the sustainability of our food supply chain into the future.

Senator Tim Lombard

I welcome the Macra na Feirme representatives and compliment them on their very lengthy and well put together presentation.

Food waste will probably be one of the most significant issues we will deal with as a nation in future. In many ways, we have not grasped that nettle yet. How we will deal with it will be a huge issue over the next decade. There will be targets that will probably be put in front of us in 2030 that will be very significant. Whether we reach them will depend on moves we make in the next few weeks, months and years. One of the figures I came across recently was that 8% to 10% of Ireland's greenhouse gases come directly from food waste, which is a frightening figure. If we ever manage to deal with the food waste issue, we can deal with the environmental issues pertaining to it.

As a youth organisation, Macra na Feirme is very important in this game in how it can influence people. The word "influence" is very important. Even though we have had academics before the committee, and others representing organisations and the industry, Macra na Feirme's appearance is very much welcome.

How can we use influencers like the witnesses to make sure we can change our attitudes towards food and food waste? Some 221,000 tonnes of food waste was dumped in Ireland in 2021, which is a significant figure. How we deal with restaurant and food outlets is also a huge issue. Even in their presentation, the witnesses mentioned the percentages of fresh fruit, bread and meat, giving a good indication. How can Macra na Feirme lead this campaign and become a major driver in it as a youth organisation that has influence over many people? This has to be a campaign from the bottom up. It involves Macra na Feirme to be a leading light and driving it forward. How does the president believe they can drive this issue forward? She also might comment on whether she believes there is a value on food. At the moment, one could argue about whether there is a value on food when food prices are so low. Given the low prices of food on the shelves of supermarket chains, there might not be a value on it in terms of making sure people do not dump it. That is a significant issue the president might comment on as well.

Ms Elaine Houlihan

Before I pass over, I will say that every person can influence this sector. All of us in this room eat fruit and vegetables. To go into the nitty-gritty, as the Senator said, we need a campaign. The Senator is correct in that it should be from the bottom up. It needs to come from us as young farmers leading the way. We are quite passionate about this in our organisation. We have members who are involved in this sector as well and that is why we are here today. I will pass over to Dr. Snell and then we might get Dr. Hanrahan’s take on it as well.

Dr. Maria Snell

As a young farmer body representing not just rural youth but also young farmers, it is important we are given a voice. We have much to offer in this space. The Senator mentioned changing attitudes. We believe from our membership that we are already very environmentally aware. We have had the opportunity to have that perspective that perhaps the previous generation did not have at this stage. We would like the opportunity to carry this through and play an active role in the sector. At the moment, a number of barriers are presented when young farmers wish to enter this industry. For example, if a young farmer is in certain different partnerships or a limited company, they cannot get the different supports that others can. We would like those barriers to accessing the market and the business and the infrastructural supports removed. We wish to have a voice and we wish for a more level playing field to allow us to access those supports.

We are fortunate in that we have a very skilled young workforce. It is probably more or as skilled as our counterparts across Europe. We want to bring through science and innovation and the latest technologies. We are in a fortunate position in that we are looking forward. We want to engage with the existing technology and bring it through. We would welcome that opportunity. We feel we have an important part to play in that.

I will pass to Dr. Hanrahan now, who might like to contribute further from the young farmer perspective.

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

As the Senator outlined, food waste is a serious problem from economic and environmental perspectives. As Ms Houlihan said, every person in the world can influence that. It is a serious issue and if people are serious about taking climate change in their own hands, the first thing they can do is monitor the amount of food they are eating and contributing to food waste. Obviously, we will need buy-in from the public. This is an opportunity that could be easily grasped through engagement with, and education of, consumers. This will require funding, however. I was disappointed to see the agriculture budget was reduced in the budget yesterday. Further investment will be quite difficult in a reduced budget.

One of the ideas I suggest goes back to prioritising Irish growers, who can produce a very fresh produce, going from the growing stage today and onto the supermarket shelf tomorrow. Whereas if we are buying from abroad, produce may spend one or two weeks in a container, require inhibitors, and, therefore, by the time it gets to the shelf, it is not as fresh and does not last as long in one’s home. That is a serious issue. Prioritising Irish growers would be an easy thing to do.

On food waste, we will never eliminate it 100%. We could possibly change our attitudes around it. We have had a “reduce, reuse, recycle” campaign going on for many years on the use of plastics and many other materials, but food seems to have fallen through the cracks. The food waste that seems to happen could be used for anaerobic digestion, AD, energy. The opportunity is staring us in the face but we are not taking it up. Food is possibly too cheap – or is too cheap – in the supermarkets. Below-cost selling is no doubt contributing to food waste as consumers are not respectful of the food they are buying. It has to go back to engagement with growers and the ability to have locally-grown fresh food on the shelves that will last longer in one’s home. We need to engage with consumers on how Irish produce is environmentally sound.

Senator Tim Lombard

The Chair is very strict on time, so I wish to ask another question before the time goes. I refer to wonky fruit, in other words, the fruit that might not pass the grade. What is Dr. Hanrahan's view on wonky fruit and where it fits into the food chain?

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

Wonky fruit is totally an ideology. To have perfectly good-looking fruit is only an ideology. Wonky fruit are perfectly as good as any other piece of fruit. There is a marketing campaign in some supermarkets. That is another opportunity. Why not explore it?

Senator Tim Lombard

Is enough being done on the wonky fruit proposal?

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

It is contributing massively to food waste, so no.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy O’Donoghue wants to get in briefly, so I will let him in before I continue with the rest of the members.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I have one or two small questions. Regarding imported vegetables coming into this country, how much of an impact does that have on keeping people from becoming growers or on growers continuing to grow in this country? On waste, biodigestives can feed back into the energy market. What are the witnesses’ views on the biodigestives coming on stream at the moment? Three or four applications are coming in for biodigestion. What will their role be for food waste and the other waste in the farm sector?

Those are my two questions. I wish to see the existing growers grow and the next generation coming through. If it is the case that something happens in Europe, I do not want to see the food chain get cut off in Ireland and us having no food suppliers in this country and no longer being sustainable ourselves. From that point of view, how important is it to make sure our home growers keep growing? In addition, I asked about biodigestion.

Senator Tim Lombard took the Chair.

Ms Elaine Houlihan

As a rural organisation catering for people between the ages of 17 to 35, keeping young people in agriculture is our priority. As Dr. Hanrahan already alluded to, we were quite disappointed to see the budget cut for agriculture. Of course, the import of fruits and vegetables is an issue. It is another competitor and it is in every sector there. Our biggest issue when it comes to producers in Ireland is the cost associated with it. That is one of the biggest things. The labour shortage is another issue facing our growers in Ireland. As we said at the start, there is a limited number of people in this sector.

Access to land is a huge part of that as well as is, as we said, diversification. There are loads of challenges facing us but this is something we need to overcome and which the Government needs to assist us in overcoming. I will hand over to Dr. Hanrahan who will go into more detail as regards the biodigesters and may provide his view on keeping young people in the sector as well.

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

I thank the Deputy for his question around food imports. The reality is that it is economically disastrous for growers, young growers in particular. The fruit and vegetable sector is a high-capital investment sector to get into and access to land and to finance are the two key pressures for young farmers. That is getting even more and more pressurised at the minute. As we know, the amount of land being directed into other land use policies is massive. For example, the wetlands and peatlands policy classifications and the forestry classifications all take land out of horticulture and fruit growing possibilities. Plus, we have a tillage target increase of 25% in this country and we can see from this year that tillage is going backwards due to weather and price. Grain is back €100 per tonne. Economically, competing on the world market in fruit and vegetables does not really work. Fairness and transparency are key points for young growers and I obviously welcome the agrifood regulator and the position that was brought in this year. Issues also include the unpredictability of dealings with retailers regarding single-year contracts. If you want to buy your materials in bulk, you can only buy until the end of the year. If your contract finishes you have no guarantee you are going to be even in business the following year.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Does Dr. Hanrahan have a comment on the biodigestion? I am conscious of the time.

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

Regarding the biodigesters, this is an open door to push. I do not see why co-operative structures can not be opened up between growers to utilise these so that rejected food can go back into the chain. Hotels and restaurants in built-up areas could be engaged with too and the whole supply chain could be engaged in that process.

Senator Paul Daly

I welcome the representatives from Macra na Feirme. I put on record at the outset that I refute the allegations that the agricultural budget was cut in yesterday's budget. While the Vote figure might be less than it was in previous years, previous years included BAR and Ukrainian aid funding which were one-off costs but the actual overall agricultural budget has increased.

As the young farmers' representatives, what appetite is among Macra na Feirme's membership, if they are already there, for remaining in the horticulture sector or maybe even for new people going into horticulture? Is the appetite there? From what we read and hear, dairy is the buzz thing at the moment. I know and appreciate how hard it is to get young people to go into any sector of agriculture or horticulture but those who are going in seem, from all reports, to be angling towards the dairy sector. Is there an appetite there for people to get into the horticulture side of things and does Macra na Feirme represent many people who are horticulturists?

It was mentioned in the committee earlier that we do not eat enough fruit and vegetables as a nation. The millennials were mentioned. The representatives do not have to verify if they fit that category but they have a better chance of being in it than I do. It was stated that this generation in particular are not fruit and vegetable eaters. Whereas we have spoken already about the influence Macra na Feirme can have with regards to tackling food waste, has the organisation a role to play to promote, among its own generation or age group or among younger people, the consumption of fruit and vegetables? If it was to go out in the morning to try to persuade its membership to get into horticulture, what would its key asks from the Government be to make that journey more accessible and easier for its membership?

Ms Elaine Houlihan

I thank Senator Daly for the question. First, I will touch on getting more of our generation to eat fruit and vegetables. Of course we have a part to play in this. We need to highlight it more. Fantastic work is currently being done on this in national schools. Introducing it from the very bottom up is their approach. That is being done with Agri Aware, whose representatives, I saw on social media, were in a school yesterday highlighting the importance of fruit and vegetables. Work is being done on this but we need to do more as an organisation and I happily say that on record. It is a campaign we need to look into and is something we need to push. If we do a campaign, we will need the support of everybody, not just the growers, but also the support of consumers. Everybody has to be involved in this to push this sector more. We represent a number of young farmers in this sector. We even have a few members whose parents are currently in the sector and the younger members hope to take over. However, there are a few issues. Access to land is one of the biggest things for a young farmer currently. As we see, there is high demand for land around the place. It is very hard, especially if you are approaching somebody who you want to get into horticulture. They may not find the idea overly appealing because it is a smaller sector even though it is the fourth largest sector we have as I said in the opening statement.

I will pass over to Dr. Hanrahan about our key asks as he is the chair of our agricultural affairs committee and it will have discussed this at length.

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

I thank the Senator. Another challenge on top of what Ms Houlihan has already mentioned are the labour costs on young farmers or growers. We have one particular grower on our committee who employs 20 to 25 people. As of yesterday, his labour charges are gone up approximately €300 to €400 in one day, and there are not many farmers making €300 to €400 a day unfortunately. It is a serious challenge and is particularly challenging for young people. As we have already mentioned, it is a capital-investment-heavy sector to get into and quite a small number of people are involved in this as a result. If we do not maintain these growers, we are going to be left with either a very small number of growers or none at all. For sure, we can be part of an advertising campaign. We try advertising campaigns ourselves on agriculture in general. However, a campaign to combat food waste and to promote Irish produce would be something we would love to be involved in. Who would not just love to be driving down the motorway with a billboard promoting an increase in food intake of Irish food?

Finally, on the budget again, with inflation where it is we would want to see a real-term increase in the budget and in money allocated for agriculture. There were €17 billion of exports last year. Agriculture is a massive industry in the country. A huge number of people and an awful lot of the rural economy is based on farming alone.

Senator Paul Daly

While I have a few minutes left, a question I asked the other groups earlier was about the relationship, from their perspective as producers, with the larger retail outlets and their thing of using vegetables in particular as a lost leader to get people in. It was mentioned about being able to walk into a supermarket the week before Christmas and buy carrots for a ridiculous 20 cent per pound. I refer to the effect that is having on the sector, and even going back to the food waste perspective, the value it has people are putting on food. It is very easy to throw something away that only cost you 20 cent. It gets into your head that it only cost 20 cent. That is not helping consumption, the view and value the consumer has towards food, and the food waste thing. How is Macra na Feirme, and its members who are producers, finding that in the overall context of contracts with the larger retailers?

Dr. Maria Snell

This is a huge problem. We have market tools we can use and when they are used appropriately they can really help. For example, seasonality within the sector can be used if there are certain issues with backlog, to clear out those gluts in the sector or in that particular chain. However, of course it is a problem when we are selling below cost because then we do not have enough appreciation of or value the product.

It sends out the wrong signal when a bar of chocolate at the till can cost more than a bag of carrots. It goes back to our relationship with it. It feels more disposable. This feeds into the mindset that we can just get rid of it and get more. It is a huge behavioural piece we have to do. It is not just about education and awareness, but behavioural change. Certain patterns have set in and certain mindsets are there. It is huge, thinking of that side of it. As well as raising awareness and changing how we interact, we need to look at our daily habits. We all have a part to play in this.

Senator Paul Daly

Does the retailer, morally, have a role in that? Using the comparison Dr. Snell made, the image they put in young people’s heads is that a bar of chocolate is worth a euro but carrots are only worth 20 cent.

Dr. Maria Snell

Yes. We all have responsibility. Everybody in the food chain from the primary producer to the consumer has a role to play and must contribute. No one person will solve this. It is critical we all work together. It is easy to see if we can follow the food chain through and there is greater transparency and understanding. There are situations where market tools can be used to our advantage but they must be used appropriately and with fairness and transparency. It is not fair on a farmer to produce goods, work to guidelines and be severely audited to make sure they have quality produce when it is marketed as less than that. There is a disconnect.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

Apologies, I was in the Chamber for the budget speech so missed Macra na Feirme's opening statement but I read it and it is very detailed. I thank the witnesses for that. We have spoken about the level, 83%, of fruit and vegetables imported. We should stand on our own two feet much more when it comes to growing fruit and vegetables. We cannot grow everything, but what we can grow, we should. For our fathers and mothers and the generations before them, anything they ate, they grew. That was how it was. We need to go back to some of that to be more self-sufficient than most of us are.

Members of the Food Vision group were in earlier and I asked how worried they were about the sector. One of the professors remarked she was worried about the price the producer is getting. That is the ultimate worry. We can speak of food waste and that is an issue but if the sector is not there, that is just as big an issue.

I want to ask about the agrifood regulator and transparency along the food chain, around cost of production, for example. Do the witnesses see the regulator playing a positive role in the sector? How do they see the price the producer is getting being improved to ensure we keep the growers we have, whose number is very much reduced, and develop and grow the sector to ensure we do not need to import as much as currently?

Dr. Maria Snell

It comes back to two key points. It is about taking back and educating ourselves. Many people want to make the right choice but do not understand the whole process. A huge part to be played involves looking at food security and our environmental targets. They go hand in hand. We need to enable our growers to produce the fruit and vegetables they want to produce and we need to understand the challenges they face, one of those being the change in climate and the difficulties surrounding that and the second being seasonality and the difficulty maintaining staff through a year. It is not just the cost, but it is about having and keeping a skilled workforce. It is a very small community. Having appropriate supports there is another factor.

We have an active membership and many people make the active choice to come into the horticulture sector. It is satisfying work producing a fine product in Ireland. The issue is the competing interests for land within different sectors. We have competition for housing, energy, etc. We need to look at what is value and to put a greater value on the food we produce. It all comes back to what we value. We have become disconnected from that. If we do not pay a fair price and it is too cheap, then we do not appreciate it and take for granted that it will always be there, although that may not be the case. We know from research around the world the importance of food security and the challenges we may face.

It is important we put more resilience into our food chain and look after Irish growers, particularly young Irish growers. They are the future. We must keep the skills base that has been passed down from generation to generation. We want to promote succession, which is the business transfer of different enterprises, fruit and vegetables being an important one. Given that it is shrinking, it is more important than ever that we instil resilience and look at the challenges.

We would like to see a package put in place to enable young farmers to look at transparency across the line because we need to ensure fairness across the food chain, and to look at profits. It is not that we have a problem with labour costs. All our growers have good relationships with their workers and want to pay them more than the minimum wage. It is not that we do not want to pay or look after workers. We do, but we are confined by what is happening further up. Our product is perishable so we have to accept the prices. We cannot hold on to them or we will contribute to food waste and because no one wants to look at produce they have grown perish. We want to address these issues and look at price, so we can look after the producers who want to get in, compete in the land market and look after our workers. It is essential we value our food and appreciate it and that the profits are fairly apportioned. Everybody wants to make money and profit. There is no problem in that as long as it is shared equally along the food chain.

Dr. Liam Hanrahan

There is an expectation out there that the farmer should absorb increased costs of regulation or anything else. It is ironic to talk of food waste when, in reality, we are farming out the problem from an environmental perspective with 83% of imports. The food miles associated with that are massive. Below-cost selling is an unbelievable issue and cannot keep going. The agrifood regulator and office will have to address these issues. There is no doubt about that, considering our promotion of diversification in other sectors. If other sectors are not viable or attractive for young people to stay in, never mind enter, it will be a non-runner in the future. We will have to look to value payments for Irish growers and start valuing Irish produce more.

Dr. Maria Snell

In Ireland, we produce a high-quality product and need more education and awareness around that. We have Bord Bia, as well as various auditing processes our growers go through. They work to one of the highest standards in Europe. We need to put greater value on the quality assurance we have from Irish produce. We have a system and climate conducive to the growth of these. We want a product that pays fairly across the food chain. We have the capacity to do that if we all work together. We need to give business certainty to our primary producers. It is difficult for anybody in the sector to invest in the future of the business when there is so much uncertainty not only from uncontrollables such as climate, but also from short-term contracts. Season to season, we do not know where we are going. It is not possible to continue under those conditions because producers cannot look after their workforce and business and cannot reinvest.

There is no future unless you can give certainty to the business. That applies to any business, not just horticulture.

Deputy Claire Kerrane

I thank the witnesses.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Deputy Mythen will be our final member to contribute. I thank him for his patience.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

I will be quick. It was mentioned that obtaining comprehensive data for the report was difficult. I understand that, under an EU directive, comprehensive data are now required. What can Macra na Feirme do to get those data?

Regarding technology, the witnesses are so young that they are probably aware of the effect that AI and the like will have. How will it affect their industry?

I agree that we need to prioritise Irish growers. Before the witnesses appeared before us, we were in discussions with another group when it was stated that there were 25,000 tonnes of tomatoes being imported. We have tomato, onion and cabbage crops, but new crops that could grow in Ireland were mentioned, for example, blueberries. Has Macra na Feirme looked into that?

Ms Elaine Houlihan

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will pass the question on the collection of data over to Dr. Snell, as that is her area.

Dr. Maria Snell

This has not been common practice, not only among primary producers, but all the way along the food chain. From 2022 on, though, there has been a requirement to assess it. The EPA has produced a report to begin that process and give some background information. It is challenging to quantify the pre-harvest loss. There are many reasons for that loss, for example, pest infestation and poor growing conditions due to weather, and these can lead to waste as well. The further you go into the food chain, the easier it is to quantify waste, but there are significant challenges at the field scale. There is a great deal of work to be done in terms of how we begin estimating that waste and examining the issues, which are more likely to increase in future due to our climate predictions of more severe weather, drought and wetting.

Regarding new technology, our generation has grown up with technology and we are open and willing to integrate the latest science and innovations into the business model. However, a key barrier is access to finance. We experience a great deal of business uncertainty and primary producers’ profit margins are very small. It is difficult to secure finance from year to year when we do not know from year to year where the contracts will come from. This issue needs to be addressed. Giving primary producers more business certainty allows them to invest in the latest technology, AI, robotics, etc. This would help to alleviate other problems, for example, the seasonality of work and the more monotonous labour.

We have ample opportunities to grow many products that we are otherwise importing from Argentina, for example, blueberries. We have people who want to do it, but the scale and viability of the product are considerations. This is about access to land, finance and a skilled labour force to execute production. We also need to promote and support the market for Irish produce so that returns can be achieved. We have high costs, not only in terms of labour but also in terms of regulation and auditing. That needs to be reflected in the price as well.

Ms Elaine Houlihan

Dr. Snell has summed up the situation exceptionally well. I could not have done it so well. I hope she has answered the Deputy’s questions.

Deputy Johnny Mythen

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

On my own behalf, I thank the witnesses from Macra na Feirme for attending and making an interesting contribution to the debate. I also thank the Senators and Deputies for making a significant contribution. On behalf of the committee, I thank all of the witnesses who contributed.

The next public meeting of the committee will take place on Wednesday, 18 October and the agenda will be the resumption of our discussion on the challenges facing the fruit and vegetable industry.

The joint committee adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 5:30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 October 2023.