JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004

Olympic Council of Ireland: Presentation.

Chairman

The committee will hear a presentation from a delegation of the Olympic Council of Ireland. I am delighted to welcome a strong team, which includes Mr. Pat Hickey, president, Mr. Dermot Sherlock, general secretary, Mr. Willie O'Brien, chef de mission, and Mr. Dermot Henihan, deputy chef de mission. I am glad that the delegation will participate in the committee’s consideration of the Irish performance at the Athens Olympiad.

As people on the outside looking in, there is a perception that expectations were raised through previous reviews. One of the Sydney review recommendations was that expectation should be managed. Mr. John Treacy of the Irish Sports Council told the committee that he believed expectation was managed. However, the general public expectation and what expectation management delivered may have been two different matters. The committee wants to serve a role in considering why athletes may not have performed to their personal best, rather then why they did not return with a fistful of medals.

We also wish to consider how we may be able to assist in ensuring the right foot is forward by the time of the Beijing Olympiad and that the necessary support is in place, notwithstanding that the team which went to Athens was better prepared and funded than any other before it. This meeting is being held at a very difficult time for all involved in sport in Ireland, in the context of the deliberations and controversy regarding the one medal brought back by the Irish team.

The delegation may now make its presentation, after which members can put questions to the delegates.

Mr. Pat Hickey

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation. We are delighted to be here and look forward to helping the committee in any way we can. I have brought the most capable people who were involved in the Athens Olympiad because I was aware that the committee wanted to focus on this in its discussion with the delegation. A review of the Athens Olympiad is well advanced and will be completed by mid-December. My colleague, Mr. Dermot Sherlock, is the honorary general secretary of the OCI, Mr. Willie O'Brien was the chef de mission, or head of delegation, at the Athens Olympiad, and Mr. Dermot Henihan was the assistant chef de mission at those games.

The Chairman made a number of points in her introduction and I can deal with those all together or address them individually in responding to members' questions. We have come here with an open mind, willing to discuss and address any issue which we can. I will begin by detailing the state of play with regard to the Athens review. After the Sydney Olympiad in 2000, a review was undertaken which forced all of us to stand up and pay attention to its results. The Olympic Council of Ireland had to get its act together, as did the Irish Sports Council and the Departments of Arts, Sport and Tourism. I am happy to say that this worked out tremendously well. As a result of that review, the OCI now enjoys an excellent working relationship with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, and his officials, with Mr. John Treacy and the Irish Sports Council, and with all the other relevant organisations, including the National Coaching and Training Centre.

The consultants who were appointed by the Irish Sports Council to undertake the review of the Athens Olympiad have interviewed nearly everybody concerned. They have sent detailed questionnaires to the athletes, who have been interviewed separately and collectively. This process is well under way and the consultants are on target to deliver their report by the middle of December. After the Sydney review, as I observed, both the OCI and the Irish Sports Council had to get in order and we faithfully enacted all the recommendations made to us in that review, as did the Irish Sports Council. Without pre-empting the result, the likely outcome of this review will be a greater emphasis on the national governing bodies and how they deal with their athletes in the four-year period between Olympiads.

I agree with the Chairman's observation that, as Mr. John Treacy indicated, the plan adopted after the Sydney Olympiad was geared specifically towards the Beijing Olympiad in 2008. The OCI is not happy with the results achieved in the Athens Olympiad. One can consider the population of Ireland and compare the success achieved by countries such as Croatia and Slovenia. We must take note of such examples and everyone has to knuckle down and work for greater success in the future. The implementation of the four-year plan, however, was the responsibility of the Irish Sports Council because, since the Atlanta Olympiad in 1996, the OCI was no longer the organ used for grant-aiding the national governing bodies. The programmes implemented by each sport in the four-year period prior to the Athens Olympiad were funded by the Irish Sports Council and this funding was administered by the national governing bodies. The OCI was involved in the matter of preparations for the games and so on. It is a broad area and the delegation will answer specific questions which members may have.

Chairman

An issue which caused consternation here during the Athens Olympiad was some media commentary on the performances of athletes who failed. This issue was mentioned by a delegation from the Irish Sailing Federation when it came before the committee. Does the delegation feel that some of this commentary during the games was inappropriate?

The OCI has said that the way forward is for the federations to examine their internal structures from top management downwards. Mr. Hickey has reiterated this today by saying that the federations need to review their operations. It does not seem to be just the Irish Sailing Federation which has a problem. Ms Maria McCambridge was another person who was worried that people were described as being "on holiday" when they were competing in the Olympic Games, and, as she said, "busting a gut" every day. Mr. Eddie McDonagh spoke about the OCI not being in a healthy situation because Ms McCambridge was one of the most dedicated athletes that he had ever met. A significant element of the Sydney review was its recommendation that the athlete should be put at the centre. There are still comments about gravy trains and that the real tourists at the Olympic Games are not the athletes.

Mr. Hickey has commented that the way forward is for athletes to have more qualifications. The committee put this question to Mr. John Treacy and he did not particularly agree with it. One of the issues in this regard is that people felt that perhaps they were peaking early or were being forced to do so, leaving their best performance at home in the process.

This leads to a further question. If athletes are under pressure to perform early or to perform at their best at the Olympics, does this force them down a road where drugs are the easiest or only option?

What length of service have the OCI representatives from each of the representative sports? How strong are their links to the sport that they represent? Is Mr. Hickey happy that the representatives are turning over often enough to keep in touch with the sport they represent? Does he agree with the comments of the former Minister, Deputy McDaid, that there should be a stronger voice for the larger sporting associations? Deputy McDaid called the situation a padlocked democracy in that representatives get in and stay in because they have been in their positions for so long that they control everything. Is there a problem with anyone or any group participating in an organisation for many years? Most boards and organisations operate on a two-term concept or cycle. Will Mr. Hickey comment on this?

The committee was told at its last meeting that the sports village of the NCTC closed in 2004, the Olympic year. This does not reflect well on the idea that everybody was working well together and getting on well, as we were told. If everybody was getting on so well and knew what everybody else was doing, why did the national coaching and training centre close?

Mr. Hickey

The Chairman had a comprehensive list of questions.

Chairman

I have another ten.

Mr. Hickey

I am delighted to be asked so many questions because that is why we are here. It is good to have a frank, open exchange and to answer these questions because we often read incorrect answers to such questions in the press. I will split the questions with my colleagues.

The question on sailing gives me a good opportunity to clear the air on an issue which has involved much media hype. When I was asked in Athens about the progress of the sailing team by Vincent Hogan of the Irish Independent, I made a straightforward comment that the sailing team was performing badly. Mr. Hogan asked me whom I would blame for this. I replied that under no circumstances would I blame the athletes but that it was to do with the administration of the sailing federation and those in charge who were not supporting or backing up the athletes. During the lead-up to the games, we had to intervene in a row between the qualifying athletes and the administrators of the Irish Sailing Association. While Mr. Hogan reported absolutely correctly what I said, a sub-editor wrote a headline blaming the athletes.

Chairman

It was a broadside attack.

Mr. Hickey

Yes, but by the sub-editor. However, the content of the article is specific. To take an example, if Damien Duff were to play poorly in the first match at a World Cup and Brian Kerr made a comment about this on television, he would be entitled to do so and to comment on how the team was progressing. We are not in a different position.

The committee, as the guardians of taxpayers' money, will be interested to know that the Irish Sailing Association received the largest amount of taxpayers' money of any federation to prepare for various games. The association has promised medals since 1992 but has not achieved this. I made a simple statement, which I think reasonable and which the public accepted, that it is time to give that type of money to the boxing federation or some other federation, perhaps the wrestling or clay pigeon federation. We had only one boxer in Athens yet it is our top Olympic sport in terms of medals. If we had ten other boxers at the games, we would have got value for money. That is the situation with regard to sailing.

I do not fully understand the question concerning Maria McCambridge. Nobody from the Olympic Council or its management ever said she was on a holiday. Will the Chairman clarify this?

Chairman

A report in The Irish Times on 5 August 2004 stated:

And his (Hickey's) comments about not wanting people going over on a holiday really bothered me. We're out there busting a gut and slogging every day, and we're the ones who want to perform the most out there.

Mr. Hickey

Who made this statement?

Chairman

Maria McCambridge.

Mr. Hickey

This again is the effect of the media. The committee will remember that before the games there was a major discussion about athletes with a B qualification. The OCI refused to send any athletes with a B qualification and we were proved absolutely correct in our decision. While we had two swimmers with an A qualification who both finished last in their heats, we could have sent another five swimmers with a B qualification.

Swimming and athletics are the only sports with a multiple choice of entry to the games. All other sports must qualify in what is often a brutal qualification process. For example, boxers must win a medal at a European championships. Never in my life have I made any statement about athletes being on holidays. What is not reported is that I praised our track and field team at Athens. To qualify under the A standard in track and field at present is a remarkable achievement because Europeans are less and less involved in the middle distance races. Alistair Cragg was one of only two white persons to qualify for the final of the 10,000 metres. It is getting tougher and tougher to win medals in that category. However, we are firmly of the belief that the Olympics is only for A standard athletes. There are competitions for B standard athletes, including their own world championships and European championships.

Chairman

Would Mr. Hickey agree with John Treacy that qualification should be made the year prior to the Olympics rather than in the same year? Another part of report in The Irish Times referred to Maria McCambridge finding:

... little consolation in the fact that the OCI have been highlighting its qualification criteria for well over a year: "It doesn't seem like they understand athletics at all. They certainly don't seem to understand that the season doesn't get going until July, and that this is the time you want to be peaking."

Does Mr. Hickey agree with John Treacy that the A qualification should be attained the year before the Olympics?

Mr. Hickey

I will pass this question to Mr. Sherlock and the chef de mission will then comment.

Mr. Dermot Sherlock

From my memory of John Treacy's evidence, he felt the Olympic Council was perfectly entitled to set the standards and the closing date. He would not have been in agreement with the closing date but he added that he felt the athletes in track and field should qualify in the year before the games.

I stated several times during the approach to Athens that a distinction needs to be made in this regard. An athlete who qualifies at the A standard will then devote full time to preparing for the games and keeping fit, whether he or she wants to run three times per week, once a month or otherwise. This is entirely different from athletes bursting their guts to meet the A standard three weeks before the games. In this, I have the support of the Olympic Council and the other federations which do not have the chance of multiple qualifications. However, it is a fact that meeting a standard at any time does not directly reflect on how athletes will perform at the games.

Regarding time of qualification, I have no doubt that it is better to qualify early. The big runners are not even worried about the A standard as they are way ahead of it. It is more a question of how many times they beat it. In preparing for the games they come to Europe from other continents and run in grand prix simply to achieve the fitness level for the games, as they have already qualified.

The Athens games were the first Olympics ever in which there was a quota for both athletics and swimming. The worry the organisers had was that they would not reach the quota, so they then called it a target. There was a target of around 2,000 for athletics and 800 for swimming. The international federations were worried up to the last minute that people would not qualify. The effort in achieving last minute qualifications goes into making the standard and those athletes are like a spent salmon at the end of the season.

Mr. Willie O’Brien

It is an option for every athlete to qualify any time in the two years up to the games. From an athletics point of view, the qualification standard starts on 1 January on the year prior to the games. The option is there for each athlete to have a look at their own specific programmes and qualify early.

A question was raised about peaking after that date. There are debates on whether it is possible to peak again after that. For example, the USA has a great number of athletes trying to qualify for track and field. It ran a qualification tournament for a week beginning on 7 July, in preparation for the Athens games. Each athlete had to go out and win his or her event to qualify for the games. We saw in the performance of the American athletes at the games that they were able to peak after those trials. Some of these things suit those making the statements.

Mr. Hickey

The Chairman spoke about more qualifications. This is something that was floated by the media, with which we would not agree. We are completely against the idea that some athletes should have to get the qualification two or three times. Sonia O'Sullivan herself has said to me that in her opinion, if an athlete cannot get the qualification in the year before the games, then that athlete has no chance of a medal. All the top athletes in other countries get the qualification the year before the games, not six weeks before the games.

We have a very lenient regime. If we had accepted B standard athletes, we would have had another 20 athletes at the games. We must remember that none of the A athletes got into a final. Comparable countries in Europe will not send a track and field athlete unless that athlete is in the top third in the world. If we did that, we would be sending two athletes.

I do not accept any inference that those qualification standards force athletes to take drugs. That is a complete red herring. My first Olympic games were in Los Angeles in 1984. A survey was done on a cross-section of US athletes who were asked if they would take a drug that would guarantee a gold medal, but would also cause death within six months. Of those asked, 78% responded positively. Once there are systems of cheating then people will always cheat, irrespective of what country they are from.

An interesting question was asked about the representatives that the federations appoint to the games. I will ask the chef de mission about the quality of the management. He will explain how we pared down our numbers after the Sydney review to make room for more people from federations. He will also explain how the federations select these people and how they perform.

Mr. O’Brien

We originally had 49 athletes qualified for the games. We had 14 in athletics, one in boxing, one in clay pigeon shooting, two in canoe slalom, four in cycling — two of whom were road racers and two of whom were mountain bikers — ten equestrians, five of whom were in three day eventing, four of whom were show jumping and one competing in dressage. We had nine athletes in sailing covering three different disciplines, six in rowing covering two disciplines and two in swimming.

Under IOC rules, we are allowed 35 officials to work with that team. Following the Sydney review, we had a look at the make up of the officials who were in Sydney supporting the athletes. In Sydney, we had seven OCI management officials looking after our headquarters. In line with the recommendations of the Sydney review, we decided to reduce that staff and divide up those additional accreditations between the sports. At the games, our 35 officials were made up of one chef de mission, two OCI headquarters staff, one PR officer, six medics and 25 individual support personnel for the different sports.

Looking at the Olympic team, athletes in nine sports qualified. It is like a tree with nine branches as each of those branches is an individual unit. We look at the number of athletes qualified in each sport. Each sport's national federation nominates a team manager. The OCI can accept or decline those managers, but they are accepted in most instances. As nine team managers were appointed, 16 additional officials remained. These were divided up among the sports according to the number of athletes and the number of disciplines within those sports. The team managers that were appointed by the national federations in some of the sports were performance directors in some cases, paid through the high performance section of the Sports Council. In other sports such as clay pigeon shooting, they were volunteer managers and coaches. This was also the case in canoe slalom, cycling, equestrian and athletics.

The manager in sailing was paid, as were the managers in rowing and swimming. The managers were quite competent in most of the sports. We began the preparation for the games by hosting manager training courses and we brought in management consultants to assist with that training.

We found, in all instances, that the managers were quite capable of doing the job. Sometimes they were overburdened because they were working on a voluntary basis.

Deputy F. O’Malley

Were those nine team managers additional to the 35 staff at headquarters?

Mr. O’Brien

No, the figure was not 35 at headquarters, it was 35 staff overall.

Deputy F. O’Malley

There were 35 officials and the nine were additional.

Mr. O’Brien

No, they were included in the figure of 35.

Deputy F. O’Malley

Are they the individual support people?

Mr. O’Brien

That is correct.

Mr. Sherlock

I want to add something to that which is important. The ratio of officials to athletes in the Olympic Games is much smaller than any of the international, world or European championships undertaken by the national federations. As early as June 2003 we organised a seminar to explain to them exactly the calculation for the different sports, emphasising that one should forget immediately the experience of one's own championships, because the ratios at the Olympic Games are much lower.

Mr. Hickey

The word "officials" is a misnomer. At the Olympic Games in Athens only two people represented the Olympic Council of Ireland, Mr. William O'Brien, Mr. Dermot Henihan and one girl in the office. All the other 35 people were managers or coaches of individual sports federations appointed by these bodies. Whether these people were up to the correct standard or not will emerge from this review which focuses on that area. We cut our numbers drastically to accommodate extra coaches and managers from the sports federations.

The next point the Chairman raised was whether large sports should have more than one vote under our system. We operate under the rules and regulations of the International Olympic Committee. In turn, we have our own constitution and it is analogous to how Members of these Houses must operate under the rules of the Oireachtas. The rules are clearly laid down and stipulate "one sport, one vote". The International Olympic Committee, which runs the Olympic Games, has the same rule, "one sport, one vote". At the annual congress of the Olympic Games in Athens, the football body, FIFA, has one vote and badminton has one vote. These are the rules of the International Olympic Committee, not the rules of the Olympic Council of Ireland and we are obliged to follow them.

The next point the Chairman raised concerned democracy——

Chairman

Deputy Deenihan is under pressure as regards time.

Deputy Deenihan

There are other meetings later, which I must attend.

Mr. Hickey

I will finish quickly on this. As regards democracy, the rules are simple. We operate under a constitution and all over the world every Olympic committee and organisation must stand down after an Olympic Games when people may seek re-election. It is open to anyone to challenge for any position. It is wide open, democracy in action, and this cannot be interfered with.

The last point was concerned with the NCTC and the Olympic village rooms. We have an excellent working relationship with NCTC. We have such great respect for Mr. Pat Duffy, its principal, that as part of our back-up team, we brought Mr. Giles Warrington one of the NCTC staff, with us to Athens. However, Mr. Henihan is in charge of our training camps and as he uses NCTC mostly, he is in a better position to comment on that.

Mr. Dermot Henihan

Throughout the four-year period, and especially in the last two and a half years, the various sports have relied on the NCTC a good deal. In the training camps we ran in 2002 and 2003 and in the pre-Olympic Games training camp we had full co-operation from the NCTC, with Mr. Giles Warrington as its head exercise physiologist and Ms Caroline McManus, another exercise physiologist. In addition, we have had numerous conferences and seminars over the years at which speakers from the NCTC were present. In the intervening period we have had a training camp for the European Youth Olympics, which was also held in the NCTC, at Kilmurray village. The next European Youth Olympic training camp is in January. This time we do not have access to the village, so we are using Kilmurray Lodge hotel, which is adjacent to it. However, we have always had full co-operation with the NCTC.

Mr. Sherlock

On the question of democracy, mentioned earlier, so far as the Olympic Council of Ireland is concerned, I believe we would all accept the United Nations is a democratic organisation. There is no extra——

Deputy F. O’Malley

I would not. It is hardly a model of democracy.

Mr. Sherlock

I mean organisationally.

Deputy F. O’Malley

Neither is the Olympic Council——

Mr. Sherlock

There is no big country with five representatives and small countries with only one. It is a case of one country, one vote. Similarly, the only bodies that can nominate people as regards the Olympic Council of Ireland are the national federations.

Chairman

I must apologise to Deputy Deenihan. I spent some time preparing for this meeting, so I seem to have asked about half the questions.

Deputy Deenihan

A good Chairman always asks all the pertinent questions first. I will try not to be repetitive and to be as concise and precise as possible. I will address the first one to the president, as an esteemed member of the International Olympic Committee. Does he believe Ireland's reputation in international Olympic sport is tarnished in any way because of the use, as in a few cases in the past, and the perceived use in others, of banned or illegal substances? In preparation for Athens five sports were targeted, track and field, equestrian, shooting, sailing and rowing. Doe he consider other sports should be given a chance in the run-up to Beijing?

As regards the training camp or the athletes' village in NCTC, does he believe it impacted in any way on the Irish performance in the Olympic Games? Money was spent on setting up five training camps, in Cyprus, Zegreb, North Greece and the other locations in Europe. Were these training camps used fully? Did the athletes make use of them, particularly Cyprus, because I believe it was mentioned on television during the Olympic Games that some athletes did not bother to go there? We were spending large amounts of money in setting up these training camps and closing down the athletes' village in NCTC. Is there a contradiction there? As regards the carding system, should this be extended to young promising or, say, junior athletes, who could be identified at an early age and might be able to enhance their performances, given the necessary financial support, or should it be focused more on the super elite athletes?

As regards the Athens enhancement programme established in 2002, over the three-year period a €7.7 million budget was spent on that. Can the president, who was in charge at the time, recall what was spent in the preparation for Barcelona, for example, where Ireland won a gold and a silver as compared to the preparation for Athens where we won one gold, over which there is a question mark, and in general performed poorly in other areas?

As regards the Sydney Olympics review, there were 29 recommendations of which 28 were put in place. I am glad that he confirmed, as did Mr. John Treacy, that the relationship between the Olympic Council of Ireland and the Irish Sports Council was a good one. The last time that the Olympic Council of Ireland was here, after the Sydney Olympics, the meeting was very frosty. We all appealed to the council to be more athlete-centred, putting athletes rather than the organisation first. To the council's credit, it did so.

I believe that the 29th recommendation concerned the Irish hospitality suite in Athens. If that suite had been there, would the athletes have performed better? Perhaps the delegation might refer to that. A review is ongoing. I asked a question in the Dáil and understand that international consultants are coming in again to tell us where we went wrong. Surely, with people such as the delegation, who have been involved in several Olympics, or other experts such as John Treacy, who won a silver medal, we should have the capacity in this country to be able to identify where we went wrong.

We call in international consultants for every problem that we have in this country. For example, the Genesis group came in to solve the FAI problem. Now someone else is coming in. I would like the president's view on that; he is a straight-talking individual. Surely the council must by this stage be fed up of being dictated to by international consultants who come in, tell us their idea of an ideal world and then go away and forget about it.

We had a briefing document before the Sports Council of Ireland attended. I note that the Olympic Council of Ireland is not represented on it. If that is the case, why is it so? Surely the Olympic Council of Ireland should have a right to such representation. It seems extraordinary that there is no member of the council on the Sports Council. Is the appointment ministerial, or should it be by right under legislation?

On the high-performance strategy, it was recommended that there be a sports institute in this country, and the delegation might deal with why we do not have one. That is one of the lesser questions. There seems to be no intention of setting up any such institute here, though we know of the success of those in Australia and the UK.

The Olympic Council of Ireland has referred to coaching over the years. Pat Duffy, a man whom the delegation admires, said here last week that it takes ten years' intensive training to achieve the level at which one could compete internationally. We have some very good coaches in this country, some of whom Pat Duffy mentioned, but do we have enough? Should we encourage coaches to come into Ireland with the emergence of new states in eastern Europe? There must be a great deal of coaching talent in some of those countries in weightlifting, gymnastics and other areas. Should we encourage them to come into Ireland, or should we once again send our athletes around the world for expert coaching? What mix is best?

Rather than nurturing talent that emerges half-proven, should we try to identify latent talent in primary schools that might otherwise escape us? What is the delegation's view of what is happening in primary schools, in which, in some cases, there is no physical education or sport at all? Foundation motor skills are emphasised nowadays.

It is only fair here to say that Ciarán Power came 74th in Sydney but 13th in Athens. That must have been a good performance. The same is true of Derek Burnett, who came 18th in Sydney in clay pigeon shooting but seventh in Athens. We should recognise good performances. There are such people as Adrian O'Dwyer, Alistair Cragg and Andy Lee in boxing who would have a great chance next time around.

What will the Olympic Council of Ireland's role be in the quadrennial plan for Beijing about which we hear so much?

Mr. Hickey

I will go through the questions and pass some of them on to my colleagues for answer. First, the current and previous drug controversies give Ireland a bad reputation. I see it at the coal face every day, since I have another hat as secretary general of the European Olympic committees. Every day I deal with some or other country in Europe and in the last three weeks, every one of them has mentioned to me what is happening in Ireland. It gives us a bad image; it is not good for the Equestrian Federation of Ireland, the Olympic Council of Ireland, the Sports Council, the Minister or the citizens of this country, but such is life. When it arises, we must go through the proper procedure.

However, great inroads are being made into drug taking among humans. The horse is an animal and is handled by the International Equestrian Federation, which is not under our control. With regard to humans, the Sports Council is responsible for drug testing in Ireland and is doing an excellent job. In addition, there is the World Anti-Doping Agency, which is now supported by the governments of the world. That has been enormously successful, since WADA does not have the right to enter a house or ask someone to open the boot of a car except when the civil power is aligned to it. That is fully supported by the International Olympic Committee. In Athens, there were 26 positive tests and 16 no-shows at the games. That means that the cheats are starting to find out that the sheriff is in town, a very positive development.

The five sports targeted for Athens were decided by the Sports Council. We had no input into that. However, it is very amenable to talking to us about it, and I have already had conversations with John Treacy regarding how we should look at other sports now. It is like everything in life; if someone is not delivering, he or she must be called to account. One moves the money around and gives another sport a break, and that will come out of this review. I do not think that the NCTC and the closing of the houses impacted on the team.

Mr. Henihan

Most of the athletes were out of the country at that stage, but some athletes might have used it. I do not know. However, from a developmental and every other point of view, it is sad to see something of that kind happening. One can say that it had an impact, but probably not directly on the team. I do not know whether I should continue on the other training camps. I do not know where the figure of five comes from, but Cyprus and Zagreb were the two main venues. We had one in Ioannina, northern Greece.

I will explain how the training camps were run. We had allocated Zagreb for rowing and flat-water canoeing, but the latter did not qualify. We had also offered it for race walking, but that sport opted for somewhere different. We had 100% of the rowing team there. We had allocated Cyprus for athletics, cycling, swimming, boxing and shooting, but the last two chose to do something else. Not all the athletes were there. We had five athletics, three cycling and two swimming disciplines there. Sports such as sailing, canoe slalom and equestrianism had to go to the venue in Athens; there was no choice for them. Boxing went to France, and the shooting squad participated in competitions in Italy before coming to the games.

Some of the race walkers chose not to go to the two main venues. They requested a different venue and went to a place called Ioannina, about an hour's flight north of Athens. For the Cyprus and Zagreb training camps we gave full medical team support and full management support. If people went to different areas we could not do so, but we supported people in different places. For those athletes who did not participate in any of our training camps, the result was isolation. When one isolates oneself from the rest of the team one puts oneself in danger, with no support to be had. That is not good.

The training camps went well. We were in those places for acclimatisation as well as training. One needed to be in warm temperatures because of the extreme temperatures expected in Athens.

Mr. Hickey

We do not like to force an athlete into a training camp. For example we had two excellent walkers, Gillian O'Sullivan and Jamie Costin. The latter was being coached by the Polish gold medallist and preferred to train with the Polish team. It is difficult to forbid such an athlete training with his gold medallist coach because he is the expert. Gillian O'Sullivan decided to go to northern Greece. We could have taken a strict approach and demand that she attend the training camp in Cyprus, but athletes are highly motivated and one must consider their wishes.

The carding system in Ireland is very good. I am aware of what other European countries pay their athletes under that system and our athletes do extremely well. The system probably needs to be re-jigged a little but the Irish Sports Council is aware of that and dealing with it. They are taking suggestions.

I fully agree that there must be a provision for the young up and coming athletes. The current structure allows for someone getting big money only when one is in an elite — but a person in an elite does not need the money because he or she is already earning it. There must be a system in place to pick out the young up and coming athletes.

Mr. Sherlock

Boxing was my sport. The year before the Seoul Olympics, Wayne McCullough was in the youth championships and he later competed in the Olympic Games in Seoul. If the carding scheme was then in force he would not have got one penny right up to competing in Seoul because he was a juvenile. A corollary of that is that Michael Carruth and Wayne McCullough both went to the Barcelona Olympics where they won gold and silver. It was no coincidence that as very young people they had participated in the Olympics four years previously.

When picking out juniors, it depends on the sport. Someone who is currently aged 14 will be 18 when the Beijing Olympics begin. In boxing one may have a mature 18-year-old competing, and such potential competitors are currently not even among the youths. The Sports Council must examine, sport by sport, the structure and situation and how early or late people mature.

There has been a tendency to allocate money for a year with no contingency element. There must be continuous contingency arrangements whereby someone can be plucked out even six or 12 months before the games, with the effort then put in for someone who is improving fast.

Mr. Hickey

Thank you, Dermot. We will move on to the Athens enhancement programme and the very substantial sum of money spent. There is a long-term project running to Beijing and beyond, though it will climax in Beijing. Back in 1992, at the Barcelona Olympics, we would have spent only about £0.75 million.

There was a unique occurrence at those games. Wayne McCullough was then being poached by New Zealand. He was made an offer of relocation to New Zealand for himself and his family if he would box for New Zealand in the Barcelona games. At that stage we put together a bursary which was part funded by AIB, our sponsors at the time, and the then Minister for Finance, now the Taoiseach, Deputy Ahern. They contributed to the fund. We kept Wayne McCullough in the system. Michael Carruth was in the Army and had superb support and back-up there. The result was that we got a gold and a silver medal — neither of them tarnished. These were clean, great athletes. Michael Carruth is a very active member of our council and helps us in many ways. This shows that one does not have to throw money about if one gets the right people and the right ingredients.

The next question was about the Irish Sports Council, the Sydney review and how we achieved the 28 results. I want to make clear that one of the reasons for that achievement was the entry of a new Minister with responsibility for sport, Deputy O'Donoghue. He is a wise, mature and experienced man who banged heads together in a very nice way. He coerced us, got us working and showed great leadership. He is the driving force behind the great relationship we currently have between his Department and officials, and the Irish Sports Council. That continues for the Beijing games.

The question relating to the hospitality house is easy. We tried to run one in Atlanta in 1996 and another in Sydney in 2000, and too much of our time and energy was taken up. When Irish people around the world heard that free drink was on offer in the Guinness Irish House, they came from Alaska to get it. We spent more time looking after them than after the athletes. This time we made a very positive decision to have no hospitality house.

Deputy Deenihan

That will not be a recommendation.

Mr. Hickey

A great deal of money is being spent on consultants. I agree with Deputy Deenihan that we can do a lot in our own country. The expertise around the table of the Olympic Council of Ireland is phenomenal because everyone elected to it comes from a federation, is active within it and knows what is going on. We have the expertise to do things ourselves.

We are not represented on the Sports Council. When it was created, the then Minister of State with responsibility for sport, Deputy Allen, appointed a representative from the Olympic Council of Ireland to the Sports Council, namely Dermot Sherlock, our secretary general. Dermot must have been asking too many difficult exam questions because the next Minister to arrive, Deputy McDaid, removed him from the Sports Council. Since then we have not had any of our members on the council.

When funding is allocated and coaching plans are implemented, we are not consulted. We have huge expertise in the area. We are now modifying that in that an organisation called the Olympic Performance Committee, which has a joint working group between ourselves and the Sports Council, is going ahead very successfully. I believe something good will emerge from it.

The Government has to decide on a sports institute. There were proposals that it be linked to Abbotstown. We must wait for matters to evolve. I reiterate that we are very happy with the service we get from NCTC and have no problems with that area.

The matter of coaching is close to my heart and I have been speaking about it since the Barcelona Olympics in 1992. Dermot might talk about Nicholas Cruz. We either import the coaching or we send the athletes abroad.

Mr. Sherlock

Depending on the sport, one can either bring in the top coaches from the top countries in a particular sport or send one's athletes, or indeed Irish coaches, to the countries with the particular expertise. We were extremely lucky to get a Cuban coach for the European Championships in 1987 and that led to Nicholas Cruz coming here semi-permanently in the 12 months before the Seoul games and for the four year programme up to Barcelona. Without his presence, knowledge and expertise we would have been lucky, despite everything, to have got one bronze medal in Barcelona. He was an expert in every aspect of coaching, including the psychological preparation.

Mr. Cruz Hernandez had been light heavyweight on the Cuban team in the previous games in Los Angeles but because of the boycott he did not get the chance to compete. He was approaching 40 then and could have taken any three of the Irish boxers in the ring at the same time. It was unbelievable and brought us to a new level. Unfortunately that did not continue but sorting out each sport, finding the experts in different countries and importing coaches is essential. As well as the basic level of coaching which the National Coaching and Training Centrehas done very well, we need a second programme at the same time to coach the top coaches and bring in the elite athletes.

Mr. Hickey

In my sport, judo, we will never have success at Olympic level unless we bring in a top expert or send our athletes away. For example, Slovenia won a silver medal at the games in judo. It had no history or tradition of judo but imported a Japanese coach who lives and trains in Slovenia. That is the way forward: bring in the expertise or send people away for coaching.

The federations are responsible for young people and encouraging talent because they are autonomous bodies which control their own sports in the four years between the games. We do not interfere or tell them what to do. They need help. We need to push the age group because we run the European Youth Olympics which happens every two years and we are not achieving or winning the medals there that we should having regard to the talent that is available. That needs to be addressed as well.

Deputy Deenihan mentioned performance. I agree with John Treacy that the expectations of the Irish public are very high. We are a small nation and cannot expect to win medals like our colleagues across the water, or the French. There were some very good performances in Athens some of which the Deputy mentioned. One also needs some luck. Gillian O'Sullivan was injured and we could not help that. It just did not happen for Sam Lynch, Gearoid Tuohy, two of our best athletes. The Olympic Games is a vicious arena and 200 countries compete and everybody cannot win medals. Nevertheless I take the Deputy's point.

Deputy Wall

I welcome Mr. Hickey and his team. He has brought with him a full array of members of the Olympic Council of Ireland. On a good day at the Olympics it must be great to be President of the Olympic Council and on a bad day he has to put up with what he gets. How are the athletes treated immediately after the Olympics? Is each one treated by its own organisation or is the council responsible for debriefing and getting them back into the frame of mind for ordinary life as well as to move on in their sports? When they have built up to the Olympics but through injury, as happened to Gillian O'Sullivan, do not compete their whole world falls apart. How does the council treat athletes like that? What formula or assistance is there to ensure that they get back to normal life? Mr. Hickey mentioned Sam Lynch and Gearoid Tuohy, who were medal hopes for whom it did not happen on the day. Are they treated individually or as part of a group? Do we fall down in doing something about that?

Mr. Hickey

No.

Deputy Wall

In Mr. Hickey's time as president have there been many members of the council who have not fielded participants at the Olympics? Is there any sport represented on the council which was not represented at the Olympics?

Are Willie O'Brien and Dermot Sherlock elected by the associations that have possible participants or does the council elect them and when does that happen? Does the build-up of team spirit happen over three or two years or one year, or does it just happen in the immediate run up to the Olympics? Mr. Hickey mentioned the team camps in Cyprus and northern Italy which must make it very difficult to collate all of that and create a team spirit. Is the Olympic village a positive thing for team spirit, given the individual nature of most of the disciplines we are discussing? Does bringing them together prevent a good performance or is it part of building up the team spirit because the athletes are representing their country and as such must be team players?

When the review makes its recommendations will the council consult with the Sports Council the individual associations to which the recommendations apply or does it take a back seat in that? It should have a particular participation and involvement to make sure the review will look forward to Beijing and that it would have contact with each association to prepare for that. I take Mr. Sherlock's point about the boxing coach whom I saw in action with a man from Castlebar in the National Stadium where the favourite was caught on the night and it reflected on the lad in his corner.

Does Mr. Hickey not think that it has a major role to play in encouraging youth into sport, given the experience of the Olympic Council and the effect its involvement would have on youngsters in presenting the Olympics and their importance to Ireland? Instead of taking a back seat and allowing the federations to do this the council should be more proactive in attracting young people to the different disciplines. For example, soccer, rugby and hurling are the main sports and it is difficult for their associations to get the elite youngster who will make the difference. Soccer, rugby and Gaelic games are the main sports and it is difficult for associations to attract young participants. By leaving it to the associations, an opportunity is wasted for the Olympic Council to attract more young people in the four years.

I accept the work involved but the council could be more proactive. The council's image among members of the public is not positive. If it was more proactive in enticing youngsters to participate in different activities, its image among people will change.

How does a young person get the necessary experience in a particular sport in Ireland? We do not have major sporting events, such as the grand prix circuits, for athletes to earn qualifications. Mr. Sherlock claims that unless Wayne McCullough participated in Seoul he would not have guaranteed his place on the rostrum in the Barcelona Olympic Games. The council is claiming it will not allow young athletes participate because their qualifications are too low, yet it gives the example of McCullough.

Deputy Glennon

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation from the Olympic Council. As I recently said of Cumann Lúthcleas Gael to its tUachtarán, the contribution of the Olympic Council to sporting life must be recognised. Over the years, it has been the field of dreams for many young people, particularly those from minority sports. At this stage, it is a venerable institution that has stood the test of time. We have spent the last hour discussing nothing but winning and getting a return. This shows how far the Olympic movement has moved from Baron de Coubertin's original aspiration. Such is the way of modern times.

The equestrian and sailing teams require high maintenance. Does the council believe the Irish taxpayer got value for money? With the equestrian team we have two choices, either gold or a shambles. A large amount of money was also expended on the sailing team. Is the taxpayer getting bang for his buck? The council touched on the triangular relationship between the Olympic Council, the Sports Council and the National Training and Coaching Centre. At an earlier hearing, it became evident, to be charitable, that there were certain communication difficulties between the other two bodies. Will the council elaborate on its relationship with the individual bodies and also how the triangular relationship works? Has the council found any difficulties in the relationships between those two bodies that has affected it?

The Flinter report on the Athens Olympic Games will be published before Christmas. It gives a three and a half year cycle between quadrennials. Different views have been expressed as to what is the best cycle for athletes' preparation. Mr. Pat Duffy claimed ten years was the optimum and another claimed 16 years. We are now operating on a three and a half year cycle. What does the council believe is the optimum? The National Training and Coaching Centre's LTPAD programme, set out in the document Building Pathways in Irish Sport, focuses on athlete and player development. What is the council's view on the report's findings?

The media is not the most accurate guideline to what is and is not said. However, just after the Athens Olympic Games, Mr. Hickey referred to concentrating on another set of minority sports. Do we have the potential in Olympic sports that warrants such investment? If we move to another set of five minority sports, is the council happy that it will be more deserving and present a better bet for return in four to twelve years? Where does the council see the funding situation of the individual sports, particularly in those cycles? I am not just talking about elite athlete and player development over time. There is also the distinct goal of representing Ireland at international level and realistically competing at Olympic level every four years.

New Zealand and Wayne McCullough's possibility of a player transfer was mentioned. The Alastair Cragg situation this year acted in a reverse direction. I raised this question with the Sports Council. Are any discussions taking place about exploitation of what is known as the granny rule during Jack Charlton's reign at the FAI? Is there much of this happening in international sport? New Zealand has a similar population size to Ireland, a similar socio-economic set-up and climate. I do not know the exact financial figures for its Olympic investment, yet it has a better return in medals on its participation in the Olympic Games.

I was pleased to hear the council talk about the necessity for quality international coaching. Nicholas Cruz Hernandez is a name that will live long in the memory of Irish sports fans. Are there other Nicholas Cruz Hernandez in other Olympic disciplines that could be employed on long-term contracts? My recollection is that he was employed on short-term contracts. Now that we are talking about long-term development, are there others who could have a similar impact on Irish sport?

Mr. Hickey expressed his satisfaction with the drugs testing system and the way the Irish Olympic Council was implementing it. It is great that Ireland is at the cutting edge of the implementation of doping controls but is the council satisfied with the manner in which the national governing bodies are dealing with the fallout from implementation of the system?

There is a view that the Olympic ideal is dead, that what Baron de Coubertin started in 1896 has become a Frankenstein's monster and that the only thing keeping the Games together is the greed of the beneficiaries and that plans are made at international level eight or 12 years in advance, with huge financial liabilities being incurred ahead of time. What is Mr. Hickey's view of the long-term future of the Olympic Games, particularly in view of the way they have been tainted by drugs?

Deputy F. O’Malley

I would not rate the United Nations as a model of democracy, just as I would not rate the International Olympic Council as a model. It is good that the president is required to stand down after each Olympiad. Would he be able to stand over and take pride in his performance?

Mr. Hickey has been president of the Irish Olympic Council since 1984 and has been re-elected many times. At what point should he call it a day? It is a time for new blood. It would be different if our performances had been tremendous and Mr. Hickey could show that the organisation could not do without him. Those who have appeared before us, however, have made off the record statements that are more interesting than anything they say on it. They are reluctant to go on record because of how the Irish Olympic Council is set up and holds the purse strings. They will not tell those who distribute the money what they do not like about them.

Having been at the helm for 20 years, does Mr. Hickey not think it is time to let new blood come through, that the council is stagnating? In many ways the International Olympic Council has a worse reputation for wheeling and dealing than politicians. In Ireland it appears the athlete and his or her performance are not the priority of the organisation, that much has to do with looking after the officials. That is the difficulty I have with the organisation. The only ones of importance are the athletes but when they come back from international competition pointing out problems, they are ignored.

Deputy O’Shea

I welcome Mr. Hickey and his team to the committee. The team is hardly gender balanced, it is all male. Is there a reason for this? Does the Olympic Council of Ireland have a policy to promote gender balance?

Drug cheats are in league with those who are producing new drugs and it takes a while for the authorities to catch up. It is difficult to find some of the drugs with the tests available. This is regrettable. Is there any way to locate those promoting this culture? From where are the drugs coming? Could measures be taken to curtail this activity at the point of production?

When discussing the rules of the International Olympic Council and if the larger sports should have more delegates, great play was made of democracy. How does the Olympic Council of Ireland feel about changing the rules of the International Olympic Council? Would it favour a change?

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Nicholas Cruz Hernandez while he was here but I was disappointed when I looked at the boxing scene. When Mr. John Treacy appeared before the committee, he stated €800,000 had been allocated to boxing and we had sent one boxer to Athens. Britain allocated £10 million and also sent one boxer. Boxing has generated more medals for Ireland than any other sport. I asked Mr. Treacy the reason we had only sent one representative and he explained that it was as a result of the break-up of the Soviet Union and the emergence of new countries. Potential Olympians are losing out because there are too many competitors. As a result, we will not be represented by those who could win medals. I have witnessed a person trying to qualify through systems whereby, if one has a bad morning, one is finished. This is too traumatic. However, I have no suggestions as to how the position can be improved.

Senator McHugh

While I was not present for the first debate, I am glad to contribute.

We must keep things in perspective when we examine Ireland's performance at the Olympic Games. The main factor is that Ireland has a population of 4 million as against a population of 380 million in the United States. For the two weeks of the Olympic Games I was on holiday in France which has a population of approximately 70 million and there appeared to be national celebrations whenever someone won a bronze medal in fencing or some other event. We must keep things in proportion because Ireland's population is smaller than that of many other participating countries. Moreover, as Deputy Deenihan mentioned on a previous occasion, our main sports are hurling, Gaelic football, rugby and soccer. As the Chairman knows, in County Donegal fencing means keeping in the sheep or keeping out the cows. I do not wish to be flippant but we must keep things in perspective.

Deputy O'Malley stated she was willing to offer suggestions or advice to the Olympic Council of Ireland. Perhaps the Progressive Democrats are her ideal model of democracy where everything is transparent.

Deputy F. O’Malley

We enjoy the concept of one person, one vote and there is a gender balance.

Chairman

Members can have a fight afterwards.

Seanator McHugh

I agree with Deputy Wall on the issue of gender balance. I assume that the representatives from the Olympic Council of Ireland work in a voluntary capacity. Although I do not want to criticise Deputy O'Malley, we should commend anyone who has given 20 years service to an organisation in a voluntary capacity, particularly as we have ackowledged that it is difficult to find volunteers.

Deputy Deenihan has produced a report on the participation of women in sport which shows an imbalance. However, these are the challenges which lie ahead. What percentage of coaches are women?

Deputy Deenihan

Some 30% are women.

Senator McHugh

This illustrates that there is an imbalance. What challenges does the Olympic Council of Ireland anticipate and how will it ensure organisations increase the level of participation of women as coaches and in sport generally?

Chairman

The Irish Sailing Federation stated it had made no promises to win medals. Tighter qualification criteria will lead to smaller teams. In that context, do we, as Senator Glennon asked, concentrate on investing money to ensure mass participation in the assumption that the cream will rise to the top, or is there a justification for funding an ever smaller number of athletes? Athletes have spoken about shaking on the blocks before the start of a race. In that context, is the council satisfied that there is enough psychological support available for athletes, or is it the case that stage fright can affect anyone anywhere at any time? As a musician, I probably know the answer to that question.

Mr. Hickey

We are all unpaid volunteers who have had to take a half day from our occupations to come here. No one is earning any money and we will not receive expenses. The entire Olympic Council of Ireland committee is comprised of volunteers. We operate with a minimum of three paid staff. If we were to calculate the bill for the full committee who give of their time in a voluntary capacity and sent it to the taxpayer, it would come to an extraordinary amount. In that context, I compare the growing number of staff in the Irish Sports Council and the federations with the work of the Olympic Council of Ireland. Sport in Ireland relies on voluntarism. This is true of soccer, rugby and the GAA.

Deputy Wall asked what happened to athletes after the Olympic Games. On their return, they are discharged to their federations who control them in the following four year period. I assume the Deputy is referring to some of the bigger Olympic committees such as those of the United States, Great Britain and France which operate a system under which athletes are not sponsored but rather work for big corporations — invariably the sponsors of the Olympic committee in question. If an athlete achieves success, there is a good chance he or she will end up in a job in the corporation concerned. The German Olympic committee also operates such a system. We have not been in a position to implement such a shceme because we are not big or strong enough to run it on our own. However, we could do so with the help of the Government and the Irish Sports Council in getting firms to sponsor athletes.

Deputy Wall

My question was related to the immediate debriefing of athletes after the Games.

Mr. Hickey

The debriefing is exhaustive. There is a debriefing by the Olympic Council of Ireland, the consultants appointed by the Irish Sports Council, the Irish Sports Council itself and the national governing bodies.

Deputy Wall

Is it carried out on an individual basis?

Mr. Hickey

One tries to debrief on an individual basis, although it is sometimes done collectively. For various reasons athletes tend not to show up at these meetings. While they wish to get back to their lives, they are encouraged as much as possible to turn up. We chase them to do so. In the Athens Games review the debriefing has been a great success and the consultants have been very happy with the attendance rate of athletes.

I do not know if committee members can stay here for the next six hours to discuss the constitution of the Olympic Council of Ireland, but I will hand over to our secretary general who is the expert. Like every other Olympic committee, we have to operate within the rules of the International Olympic Committee.

Mr. Sherlock

As I tried to explain, the position is simple. The members of the Olympic Council of Ireland are the affiliated federations. Each federation has three delegates and one vote. It is anathema to think of sports in terms of the numbers who participate or the number of medals won. The difference between the Olympic Games and any other international sports event is that the others concern individual sports such as the world soccer championships. The basis for the Olympic Games is the mixture of sports involved. We give equal rights and an equal number of votes to every federation affiliated to us, big or small, regardless of whether they are involved in the winter or summer Games. In terms of numbers, boxing would be nowhere near one of the bigger sports, yet up to the second last Games more medals had been won in boxing than in all other Olympic sports combined. Its federation was not worried about having only one vote. It is possible for four or five federations to gang up at the expense of all the others to vote certain matters through. The one federation, one vote approach is mirrored in all international federations, regardless of size. America, France and Russia have only one vote each. If they did not, one would not have proper international federations but six or ten big countries running everything.

Deputy Deenihan

How many federations are there?

Mr. Sherlock

Our latest count is 33, covering the summer and winter Games.

Chairman

How often are federations added? There were 27 or 28.

Mr. Sherlock

They are added as they apply. The two grounds for membership are that a federation must be the sole governing body for the sport in Ireland and must be affiliated as a full member to its international federation. We can only recognise one body in each sport.

Chairman

We received a full list from the Irish Sports Council when its representatives appeared before the committee. Would it be possible to get a list of federation delegates and learn how long they have been members of the federation?

Mr. Sherlock

Prior to any meeting of the Olympic Council of Ireland, federations only have to give seven days notice of the names of their three delegates. They tend to appoint delegates either for the four year cycle or each year. The Olympic Council of Ireland holds an election every four years after each Games whereas many of the federations either hold two yearly or annual elections. They give themselves the right to appoint delegates as they wish.

The one federation, one vote system is the fairest possible. Just because a sport is considered minor in Ireland does not mean that this is the case internationally. Some of our major sports would not be strong in other countries or continents. When it comes to the Olympic Games, we are not dealing with Ireland, Britain or the rest of Europe but with 202 countries. There are more national Olympic committees than members of the United Nations.

Deputy Deenihan

Do we have an Olympic handball federation in Ireland?

Mr. Sherlock

Yes. It is a very recent addition.

Chairman

We will get a list of sports and events.

Mr. Hickey

Deputy Wall's other question was related to how we were elected.

Deputy Wall

How were Mr. Henihan and Mr. O'Brien elected?

Mr. Hickey

I will also reply to one of Deputy O'Malley's questions. The rules are clear-cut. Within one year of the ending of the Olympic Games, all Olympic committees have to stand down and elections must be held. It is open to anybody to put his or her name forward. We have a president and two vice-presidents. Mr. Louis Kilcoyne, our senior vice-president, is here today. We also have a secretary general, a treasurer general and seven committee members. The two gentlemen concerned were appointed by the executive committee to run various offices during the Games.

On the issue of gender balance, of the seven elected members, two are female. The only reason they are not here today is that the focus is on the Athens Games. I brought along the people directly involved in order that they could be questioned. One of the women concerned represents the sport of hockey while the other represents the sport of basketball. They are both very active members. I will come to deal with a recent programme in which they have been involved.

We will move on to the athletes living in as distinct from outside the Olympic village and the question of whether this is a source of distraction.

Mr. O’Brien

In the run-up to the Games we recommended to each federation and team manager that every athlete should live in the village from the point of view of team security, medical care and team building. There are negative as well as positive aspects. In preparation for the Games we looked at the logistics, the location of venues and talked to each athlete and listened to what he or she had to say about his or her requirements. While we can advise athletes to live in the Olympic village, ultimately the location of venues plays a big part in the final decision of national federations. From our experience at Athens, living in the village was not detrimental to performing well. Let us take the rowing team as an example. Two rowers lived outside the village in accommodation we provided under the medal prospect programme. The other four-man team lived inside the village. From the results, the four-man team performed better at the Games. There is, therefore, no fixed rule as to whether one performs better while living inside or outside the village.

One of the big factors is the size of the event. The experience of most athletes is of competing in championship venues in front of 100 or 200 spectators. At the Olympic Games venues are full to capacity and some athletes can be overawed by the experience. A sports psychologist was part of the team and was based in the training camp. Their services were used extensively. Adrian Dwyer fell into the category of not doing as well as expected. Before the Games he could have taken on the world but, as admitted afterwards, when he got there, he froze. The experience will stand to him when he qualifies for the Games in Beijing.

Mr. Hickey

I will move on to the Athens Games review in which we are actively involved and which we support 100%. We will go with whatever comes out of it. We started a review process after the Sydney Olympic Games, the idea behind which was to put in place a solid plan up to 2008. The Athens Games review will be an important part of this.

An excellent point was made regarding youth programmes in schools and the Olympic Council of Ireland playing a more active role in the four year period between Olympic Games. We have much work to do in this area. We recently ran an excellent project for sixth class students in primary schools. It was an Olympic Games education knowledge quiz in which every school in Ireland participated. We had winners from the four provinces and one overall winner, a school in Drogheda, County Louth. The winning pupils won a trip to the Olympic Museum in Lausanne with their parents. They will travel this weekend. The project provided an excellent opportunity to get our message across and inform schools.

The final question was related to the way in which youngsters gained experience and whether the qualification bar was set too high. This matter must be clear-cut. The Olympic Games are only open to the world's elite athletes. To gain experience, athletes must participate in the European and World Championships in the relevant discipline. If an athlete from track and field, judo or wrestling, for example, does not perform well in his or her event at the European or World Championships, he or she will not do well at the Olympic Games. However, there is always a strong case for bringing young athletes who do well at the World Championships to an Olympic Games to blood them in order that they will perform better on the next occasion. The boxer, Andy Lee, is an example of this, although he also qualified for the Olympic Games. He is a fine prospect for the Beijing Games in 2008 but is in danger of turning professional. We are all working to keep him in amateur boxing as he was a great ambassador for Ireland and the Olympic Council of Ireland during the Games in Athens.

Deputy Glennon asked about the finance pumped into equestrian events and sailing and raised two scenarios. I do not have to deal with the issue because the funding of equestrian events is fully justified and our equestrian teams have always performed well at the Olympic Games. The three day eventing team came fifth in Sydney and seventh in Atlanta. Equestrian sport is indigenous. It was extraordinary that until the Athens Games our teams had never won a medal at an Olympic Games, given that they had won every other conceivable trophy and event in the world.

We do not know what is the position regarding the equestrian gold medal won at Athens. Everybody is running too fast on the matter as a result of reading media reports. Due process applies and it is up to the athlete in question to decide, with his advisers, whether he will take part in it. The Irish Equestrian Federation is prohibited from interfering in any way. If Mr. O'Connor decides to go through it, he will appeal to the International Equestrian Federation, after which the matter may be referred to the Court of Arbitration for Sport for a final decision. We should not prejudice any decision he will make but wait and see what happens.

As regards the sailing team, I believe I addressed the matter in reply to a question from the Chairman.

With regard to our relationship with the Irish Sports Council and the National Coaching and Training Centre, as I stated, we have a tremendous relationship with each of these organisations. As Deputy Deenihan pointed out, the circumstances and atmosphere when we appeared before the joint committee four years ago were completely different. I am a straight talker who shoots from the hip. The answer to the Deputy's straight question as to whether I am aware of any problems between the Irish Sports Council and the NCTC is yes. Most sports organisations are aware of the problems but the matter does not come within my area of competence. I have a cardinal rule of not interfering in areas in which I have no involvement.

Mr. O’Brien

The best cycle for success is an eight year period. Some of my colleagues may assist me on the matter. We do not necessarily work on a three and a half year cycle which may appear to be the case when one reflects on the Athens Games review. However, the national federations regard the preparation of athletes in terms of a continuous eight, 12 or 16 year cycle. As Mr. Hickey stated, after the Games, an athlete slots back into this framework. A road map of preparation for the logistics of the Games has been in place for 20 years. The reviews, whether the Athens or Sydney Games review, simply click in to examining our performances and identifying areas in which we can improve the road map and provide a better service for athletes.

Mr. Hickey

I do not know what is the national coaching and training centre LPTAD programme. The matter would be dealt with by our sports director who is not present. Perhaps someone else has something to add.

Mr. Henihan

The Deputy was referring to the pathways programme for player and athlete development. We were involved in the programme. Billy Kennedy sat on the technical advisory group which developed it. It is based on training to compete, competing and success. The question is how many years it takes to achieve success at the top. The model used around the world indicates it takes in the region of six to ten years. This takes us back to the question on the masses versus the top performer. One must have a talent identification programme for the masses. The pathways programme is leading to such a programme. While it is essential, the way in which we identify talent is the key.

Mr. Hickey

The next question was whether there was any benefit in concentrating on minority sports to achieve greater success. Statistically it has proved difficult to win medals in track and field and the major sports due to the volume of competitors and the dominance of these sports by non-Europeans. One must consider sports in which we have a chance because the numbers of participants are smaller and fewer countries practise them. These include fencing, Tae Kwon Do, wrestling and many more. Senator McHugh stated the only fencing in County Donegal was used to keep sheep in. As I informed the media in Athens, the Irish public are sports mad and as proud as hell to see an Irish person standing on a rostrum while Amhrán na bhFiann is played, regardless of whether he or she has won a medal for table tennis or fencing.

There is a great future in these sports. For example, we have a Tae Kwon Do federation, a junior European champion in the discipline, Rachel Caprani, and also a strong young man who is making progress. The athletes are funded by the Irish Sports Council to the tune of €1,500 per annum, but we must ask what can they accomplish with this amount. Ms Caprani's performance was limited and she was unable to advance to represent Ireland. She did not achieve the qualification criteria because the federation did not have the money to send her to participate in events. Part of our job in the Olympic Council of Ireland is to lobby the Irish Sports Council to insist it consider the sports which are not funded. If others have had their day in the sun and failed to achieve, we must consider moving the pot of money around. It is not a never-ending source of funds.

At the Salt Lake City Games in 2002 we nearly won a bronze medal in the winter sports skeleton. The sport had not been recognised by the Irish Sports Council or the Government but the gentleman competing missed a medal by a fraction of a second. We could have seen an Irishman receiving a medal in a sport which had not been recognised. We were a joke to the world.

We find it difficult to obtain funding for winter sports from the Irish Sports Council. While we obtained recognition for them after a long battle, we are still trying to obtain money. We compete in all the Winter Olympic Games while winter sports federations have equal membership of the Olympic Council of Ireland with boxing, soccer and sailing. In a year and a half we will have a team at the next Winter Olympic Games in Turin. We will have a four member skiing team of two males and two females as well as a female bobsleigh team. As the teams are ineligible for funding, we provide for them from our sponsorship moneys. We are elected to treat each federation equally. That is what we try to do.

Senator McHugh

Pardon my ignorance but is jujitsu an Olympic sport?

Mr. Hickey

No.

Senator McHugh

Is there talk about making it one?

Mr. Hickey

There is in the sense that it is proposed to bring it in under karate. Judo and taekwando are listed as martial arts. Jujitsu is part of karate and, though not currently listed, may be admitted. There is talk of introducing new sports such as rugby, a game Deputy Glennon knows very well. I will discuss the sports being introduced and those being phased out.

Senator McHugh

I mention it because there was a jujitsu champion in Letterkenny who won the silver medal in the world championships.

Mr. Hickey

I wish we had him at the Olympic Games.

Mr. O’Brien

In considering minority codes we are not talking about taking funding completely away from prioritised sports. We have found in the last four years that many prioritised sports bring forward large squads within which are athletes who can achieve the world rankings necessary to allow them join the carding scheme. The athletes have been supported because they are within large squads, not necessarily because they are better than others in minority sports like fencing, taekwando and archery. Minority sport athletes are unable to achieve the international standards required to join the carding scheme because funding is withheld from them unlike athletes in large squads which recieve significant funding. We want to consider concentrating on the small number of athletes within large squads who have real potential while channelling some funding to other sports.

Mr. Hickey

The next issue relates to the granny rule. While neither our organisation nor the Irish Sports Council actively seeks athletes internationally, a significant positive change in Irish sport has been the involvement of immigrants in athletics. Whereas wrestling was formerly on its knees as a sport, clubs now have immigrant members from Moldova, Belarus and the Ukraine and the standard has increased significantly. The same is true of weightlifting. I recently attended the final of the ladies' volleyball championship and saw that each team had at least five immigrant members. By 2012 our Olympic team will have a significant proportion of immigrant members. Immigrants bring great benefits to us in the sporting arena and we are learning a great deal from them.

The national governing bodies are dealing with the fallout from drug testing, although I do not quite know how. The Irish Sports Council has total responsibility for drug testing and it is an area in which we have no role. I do not know what the relationship of the national governing bodies is with the council in that regard.

Deputy Glennon referred to the death of the Olympic ideal of Mr. Coubertin through the introduction of money and greed. While I agree there is a great deal of public cynicism about the Games, I am happy to report we are turning the corner. I mentioned the success of the World Anti-Doping Agency, the 26 positive tests and 16 no-shows at the Games. There is a constant battle between the chemists of the illegals and the chemists of the legals. As long as people are alive, they will cheat and we must weed them out.

The problem has had no effect on the success of the Olympic Games. While the level of sponsorship for most world sports federations, including FIFA and the International Rugby Board, is declining, it continues to increase for the Games. The Olympic Games are a unique event held every four years which attracts people from all over the world. Athletes from countries at war live together in the Olympic village. While there are cheats among them, 98% of the 10,000 athletes who take part are as honest and clean as the day is long.

The success of the Olympic Games continues. They will be held in Beijing in 2008 while five cities are battling for the honour of hosting them in 2012. London, Paris, Madrid and Moscow are the four major European capitals competing with New York. If the Games were dead and buried, these cities would not invest billions of dollars in competing to host them. The Olympic movement is moving in the right direction.

Unfortunately, Deputy O'Malley has left.

Deputy Deenihan

Fortunately for her.

Mr. Hickey

I note she is a great fan of mine and the Olympic Council of Ireland and also that her constituency lies very near the sea. Having said this, I very much respect her opinions and comments. As everyone here knows, I am used to being criticised. I have featured in the media many times and will no doubt do so again. Deputy O'Malley was incorrect to state I had been president since 1984. I simply mentioned it as the first year I attended the Games. I went as manager of the Irish judo team.

Deputy O'Malley made a statement that I want to refute absolutely. She had her facts completely wrong and I am sorry she is not here to hear me. She said it is all very well to sit around here where people are guarded in their statements, whereas when speaking to her in private, they tell her something completely different. She says this is because we control the purse strings, that representatives of sports are afraid to speak up. She has her facts completely wrong. The purse strings were removed from our control in 1996. We no longer provide funds for any sport. The problem——

Deputy F. O’Malley

I was watching on the monitor and did not want Mr. Hickey to think I was unaware of his comments. I had to meet somebody who was waiting for me.

Mr. Hickey

I am delighted the Deputy has returned and will repeat what I said. I have not been president of the Olympic Council of Ireland since 1984, rather I attended my first Olympic Games in that year as manager of the Irish judo team. The Deputy suggests representatives attending the committee speak guardedly while stating to her in private that because we control the purse strings they are afraid to speak up and stand for election. She was completely and utterly wrong in what she said.

Deputy F. O’Malley

With respect, Mr. Hickey might not know.

Mr. Hickey

May I finish? Since 1996 we have had no function in providing funding. We do not provide funds for any federation and there is no hidden agenda when representatives stand for election. The problem lies with the Irish Sports Council, the paymaster to which people are afraid to speak openly. It took the mantle from us.

Before the Deputy speaks again, I completely refute her suggestion that the Olympic Council of Ireland looks after officials to a greater extent than athletes. That is completely untrue. We dedicate ourselves to the athletes and I am confident we will come out of the Athens Games review very well. It is impossible to convey the extent of the work done by the men accompanying me in the Olympic village. They worked 18 and even 20 hour days, unpaid, to help athletes in every way possible.

Deputy F. O’Malley

To respond briefly, I did not mean it to sound as if it was gospel that the Olympic Council of Ireland was looking after the officials much more than the athletes. However, the perception is that athletes are not being given the priority they should have. That is the point I wanted to make.

Mr. Hickey

The Deputy also spoke about money and said people were afraid to speak to us because we were the paymaster.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I did not realise the Olympic Council of Ireland did not have money but it is certainly not in a position to know whether people speak openly to it. When someone has a grievance, the person against whom there is a grievance is often the last to hear about it directly. That is the point I make. It is an admirable quality that Mr. Hickey is a straight talker. However, while it is helpful for people to know where they stand with him, it can lead to difficulties.

Mr. Hickey

We have an annual general meeting at which everyone can stand up and speak his or her mind. People can say what they want about anything. Some of our annual general meetings are interesting, as the media, for the members of which it is always a sell out event, will know. If anybody has anything to say to me during the year, he or she comes and says it. Deputy O'Malley was missing when I said I was used to being criticised.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I heard that bit.

Mr. Hickey

It does not worry me. I am glad the Deputy realises we are not the paymaster and do not get votes by virtue of the fact that we provide more money for one federation over another. We do not have the money to do so.

Deputy F. O’Malley

I will watch the next election with great interest.

Deputy Deenihan

Deputy O'Malley has been complimentary to the president of the Olympic Council of Ireland. What appears to be a minus has been talked into a plus, which requires great technique.

Chairman

From what has been said, it appears that when the Athens Games review is complete, the purse will have to be transferred. If the Olympic Council of Ireland does not have a funding role, why does the perception of influence persist?

Mr. Hickey

The answer is simple. Deputy O'Malley was elected by her constituents because she was a great person.

Deputy F. O’Malley

Flattery will get Mr. Hickey everywhere.

Mr. Hickey

The same is true when I stand for election and people vote for me. I get the most votes. Whoever does this wins the election.

Deputy Deenihan

Mr. Hickey is obviously doing a very good job.

Mr. Hickey

Members of the committee are the experts in this field and we learn from them.

Mr. O’Brien

As unions support workers and the SIMI supports motorists, the membership — the national federations, delegates and secretaries — looks to the Olympic Council of Ireland to air their grievances. Our president has won out over a number of years because he is not afraid to air openly the grievances of the sports bodies.

Chairman

In an issue of The Sunday Tribune in 2002 it was suggested that, among Mr. Hickey’s allies, the line was that Mr. McHugh was merely looking for a new career, although one senior Olympic Council of Ireland source admitted he could have remained on one hell of a gravy train if he had just kept his mouth shut. There would have been trips all over the place. Whether it is factual, this contributes to the cumulative impression conveyed privately and publicly by sports organisations.

Mr. Sherlock

Unfortunately, an assertion in The Sunday Tribune does not make something true. That is the problem. The word “perception” is often taken to mean the truth or that the facts are different or unknown. What does the Chairman mean by it? A group — or a person — has its own perception and whether it is right or wrong is entirely different. Unfortunately, the media have not been especially kind to the Olympic Council of Ireland for quite some time.

Deputy Glennon

Perception is not something with which we are unfamiliar on this side of the table either.

Mr. Sherlock

I will come back to something Deputy Glennon said after I consult my notes.

Mr. Hickey

I am only interested in my constituents and those who have a vote in an election. That is the way we all conduct our business.

To turn to Deputy O'Shea's questions, I have explained the gender balance issue. The Deputy made a useful point about drug cheats when he asked who was chasing those who sell drugs to athletes. The World Anti-Doping Agency has assumed this function. As I said, with the aid of the power of civil governments, it is quickly getting on top of the problem. The Deputy asked if the rules of the Olympic Council of Ireland could be changed to give larger sports a greater say. As Mr. Sherlock explained, we are obligated by the charter of the International Olympic Committee to model our approach on the one it has adopted.

The next question was related to boxing and money to promote athletes. Unfortunately, the International Boxing Federation is not everything it should be and there are serious question marks against the way it is run, particularly the way boxers qualify for the Olympic Games. The system of judging leaves a great deal to be desired. The International Olympic Committee is unhappy with what happened at some events in Athens and the qualification tournaments preceding the Games.

I have strongly advised at length the Irish Amateur Boxing Association which has always been one of my strongest supporters. It will have to ensure more people qualify as referees to ensure Irish referees participate in international boxing tournaments. If a boxer from Azerbaijan is fighting a boxer from Ireland and there are no Irish officials but Azerbaijani and Moldovan officials, they will know who is coming up next and the Irish boxer will not get their vote. If we cannot beat the system, we must infiltrate it and try to ensure our boxers qualify. We have the skills to do this and are working hard to this end.

Mr. Sherlock

Deputy O'Shea mentioned the significant funding invested in boxing and noted that only one boxer qualified for the Athens Games. In Britain, where much more money is available, only one boxer qualified. Ireland and Britain were lucky to have one boxer each. In stark contrast to athletics and swimming, there are six to eight places available in each weight division for the 48 countries in Europe. Competition is, therefore, fierce which does not mean Irish boxers are not of the required standard — that may or may not be the case. Qualification for the Olympic Games in boxing and many other sports is in complete contrast to that for swimming and athletics where participants have repeated opportunities to qualify, not by taking a quota place but by reaching a standard.

Mr. Hickey

I refer to Senator McHugh's questions. I covered the issue of gender balance and accept his comment on fencing in County Donegal. He mentioned our national games, which is interesting in that this is the only country in Europe with indigenous games, two of which attract the cream of our athletes. We are proud of this and I am a great fan of the GAA. Week after week the best of our athletes tog out and train better than professionals. In addition, we fill Croke Park with 80,000 people for finals several times a year. When I tell this to my colleagues in Europe, they cannot believe it. Ireland is the only country in Europe in this position. In addition to the athletes the GAA attracts, rugby and soccer take many athletes. Invariably the remainder participate in the different Olympic sports. We start from a difficult base in that the cream of our athletes are involved in our national games. This is a major success for the GAA and an important factor.

Several members touched on the Olympic programme. The current position is that no new sports will be admitted unless existing sports are removed. A vote will take place a year from now to add three new sports to the programme. The three frontrunners are rugby, golf and karate. If the first two of these were accepted, it would be good for Ireland, although there is a division on the matter because the type of rugby involved is sevens.

Deputy Glennon

We do not have a strong tradition in sevens.

Chairman

County Donegal has some good karate practitioners.

Deputy Deenihan

Having watched and played Olympic handball there is a positive similarity between it and Gaelic football, basketball and other sports. The Olympic Council of Ireland should promote Olympic handball because it is a sport Gaelic players could play.

Mr. Hickey

It is a game with a future. We had difficulty in getting its representatives to affiliate to us because the sport is always mixed up with GAA handball. They are now happy with the current position. Every school has an indoor hall where pupils could play Olympic handball.

Deputy Deenihan

The GAA is developing recreational games. Its president, Seán Kelly, mentioned this new recreational indoor sport during his appearance before the joint committee last week. Deputy Tony Dempsey is involved in a committee dealing with the issue. The Olympic Council of Ireland has an opportunity to tap into the GAA resource and develop an Olympic sport.

Mr. Hickey

The Olympic Council of Ireland is thrilled to have appeared before the joint committee for such a frank and open discussion. We prefer to have everything on the table. The council is working extremely well with everyone in the sporting arena and will continue to do so until 2008 and beyond. The long-term future of Olympic sport in Ireland is good.

Chairman

I thank the president of the Olympic Council of Ireland, his support staff, committee members and members of the press who do not always take an interest in our proceedings. The meeting was important and we value the council's time. We asked a few difficult questions. As part of the joint committee's study, we sent out questionnaires. We will inform Mr. Hickey and his colleagues of how well they scored when we receive all the replies. So far, however, they have been good.

Many hoops will have to be jumped through between now and the Beijing Olympic Games. We are all on the same side in trying to get athletes to reach their full potential. If this results in medals, well and good; if not, we will have failed in our efforts. I congratulate those who took part in the Olympic and Paralympic Games and hope our youth teams continue to go from strength to strength. It would be excellent if they were to make progress in the Olympic Games. The paralympics teams are showing the way.

I thank the representatives for their time. It has been a long but worthwhile meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.50 p.m. sine die.