JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 2009

Arts Funding: Discussion with Arts Council.

Chairman

Ba mhaith liom fíor chaoin fáilte a chur roimh iad siúd atá anseo ón Comhairle Ealaíon, ina measc Ms Pat Moylan, cathaoirleach, Ms Mary Cloake, stiúrthóir, agus Mr. Alan Stanford agus Mr. Philip King, comhaltaí. Cuirim fáilte faoi leith roimh Pat Moylan, os rud é gur í seo an chéad uair di a bheith roimh an coiste ó ainmníodh í mar chathaoirleach ar an chomhairle ó 1 Eanáir. Cuirim fáilte freisin roimh na daoine eile atá anseo chun léiriú a thabhairt dúinn ar an méid atá á dhéanamh acu. I ndiaidh an léirithe sin, beidh deis ag comhaltaí an choiste ceisteanna a chur agus freagraí a fháil uaibhse orthu sin.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome the representatives from the Arts Council: Ms Pat Moylan, the new chairman — this is her first time to attend before the committee and we wish her well during her term of office — Ms Mary Cloake, director, and Mr. Alan Stanford and Mr. Philip King, council members. I expect all members read with interest the opening remarks of Ms Moylan which have been circulated and are quite detailed. She is welcome to make her presentation in full or, if she wants to take the time factor into consideration, she could highlight aspects of it which would allow more time for questions from members to her and her colleagues. The choice is hers.

Ms Pat Moylan

I thank the joint committee for its invitation. I am the new chairman of the Arts Council. I took up office on 1 January, succeeding Ms Olive Braiden, whom many of the members would have met during her term of office. This is my first time to attend this or any similar Oireachtas committee. As I still learning in my post, I ask members to bear with me. I am accompanied by Mr. Alan Stanford, actor and theatre director; Mr. Philip King, musician, broadcaster and film maker, and Ms Mary Cloake, director of the Arts Council, whom members will know.

The committee requested that we address the issue of funding of the arts in an economic downturn. I am artistic director at Andrew's Lane Theatre and as such, I am familiar with the funding challenges facing the arts sector. My background is one of the assets I bring to my role as chairman of the Arts Council at this challenging time.

In the reply to a recent parliamentary question the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism said that even in these economic times he did not consider investment in the arts, culture and creative sectors as discretionary. The times when the arts might have been seen as a luxury are no more. The arts are part of the fabric of our society and what defines us as a people. They enrich our lives and can help us cope in these difficult times. When we seek to know the nature of a people in another place or time, we study their buildings, artefacts, rituals, stories and music. When we want to understand the meaning of love, death, war or ambition, we study music, drama, art, literature and film. In making art we make ourselves. In understanding art we understand ourselves.

The argument for a public subsidy for the arts derives from the same principle applied to providing a public subsidy for a range of public services. The arts are a social good which, if left to the marketplace, would not survive or would do so in a fashion so distorted that the public good would not be served. Up to now the arts sector has enjoyed a number of years of growing financial allocations, admittedly from a low base. The money was well spent during the past five years. As the Minister noted, the State appreciates and values the contribution the sector has made to the country internationally. Ireland has had a fantastic run in winning awards in recent times, which proves that our greatest natural resource is the arts.

Due to budgetary constraints, the level of funding to the Arts Council has been reduced to €74.439 million for 2009, an effective reduction of €9 million or about 12% less in overall terms than we invested in 2008. Reductions to arts organisations have been minimised as much as possible by the council, with its own costs being cut by €1.5 million. While the reductions were not unexpected and other sectors have taken bigger reductions, the arts are still a delicate flower in Ireland that requires nurturing. As with tourism and sports bodies, the arts sector copes badly with sudden change and its past is littered with job losses and emigration of talent.

The arts offer value for money for the investment made. In some countries the investment in one art form is the same as what the Arts Council receives for investment in the entire sector. The council supports festivals such as that in Galway with only very modest resources. The return for Galway from that investment is great, with some €24 million annually into the local economy and 150,000 patrons, the majority being 25 to 44 year olds with high spending power. We give the Galway Arts Festival very little for this return.

Most jobs in the arts sector are very modestly paid and, given the outcome, represent very good value for money. By extension, a further cut in funding for the arts at this point would mean significant job losses in communities across the country. The real saving to the Exchequer of further cutbacks to the arts would be minimal as almost all of the people concerned would immediately claim unemployment and other social benefits. Cutting the high level of activity we see in the arts all around the country would have no gain. In 2009 the Arts Council is driving as much of its resources as possible to artists and has managed to maintain 60 venues, many of them in the committee members' constituencies. We are funding 400 organisations to ensure there will be great drama in venues, superb local festivals, literary events and so forth. With fewer resources to invest, the council is mindful of the leadership role it plays for the entire arts sector and has made it a priority to maintain excellence in more than a dozen art forms.

That is not to say the Arts Council did not also have to disappoint. It had to maximise its resources and seek value for money in terms of economic impact. There will be some job losses and less theatre, music and so forth. If there are further reductions in our budget, significant grant cuts will be unavoidable and commitments to organisations will have to be reviewed. At this time we do not think there have been large numbers of job losses but if there is further whittling of our funds, there certainly will be. The arts sector has recognised that we are in a new funding environment, that we must all plan accordingly and face up to difficult decisions. In our sector people have pulled together in this time of crisis and continued with their activities, as members will see in their constituencies. Arts Council funding often helps organisations to attract significant additional financial resources and many of our stakeholders do this very well and galvanise and energise their communities to support them.

The arts enjoy massive public support. A good example was when the Gate Theatre took "Waiting for Godot" to 40 venues last autumn. It was a sell-out. Mr. Standford will tell the committee a little more about it shortly. It created an appetite and interest throughout the country to see a world class production. The Arts Council will continue to act in partnership with and as an advocate for artists and the arts. However, it cannot be blinkered to what is happening in the broader public finances.

One of the Arts Council's less visible roles is in creating and supporting communities through funding the arts in schools and elsewhere for young people, in hospitals, through local authorities and in encouraging people from all walks of life to participate in the arts. In many cases, modest amounts of funding have an enormous impact, empowering communities and encouraging the tens of thousands of arts volunteers on whom the sector relies. As far as we can, we will continue to maintain these activities. However, we also hope we can inspire audiences in the arts to spread their levels of interest. The arts are the single biggest pursuit in Ireland, bigger than the GAA and even bigger than political involvement. People all over the country get involved, by making it a career or as a volunteer or part of an audience. From the young to the not so young, the arts inspire and fuel the imagination.

The Arts Council's plan to sustain the sector during the recession is to connect the arts with the national agenda and in this way we hope other funding streams will become available that will help the arts community through the downturn. My objective is to do this in two ways during my term as chairman of the council. The first relates to cultural tourism. This area of tourism is already growing at a fast pace — three times faster than general tourism, according to the World Tourism Organisation. This works well in other countries. Many tourists like a cultural focal point to their holidays and this strand of tourism attracts high net worth holidaymakers. Cultural tourism is estimated to be worth €5.1 billion annually to the economy. Of the 4,800 individual "products" or events identified by Fáilte Ireland in its strategy document on developing cultural tourism in Ireland, almost 2,000 of these are arts events. Festivals take place during the year, many of which are funded by the council and they are a terrific magnet for tourists to local areas. They can be made an even more powerful attraction for cultural tourists and an even greater contributor to the local and national economies. The council is continuing its support for festivals in its allocations for 2009 and will continue to do so. We will work with Fáilte Ireland and Tourism Ireland to achieve the most for Ireland in tourism terms for the future. We know that Ireland's reputation is founded on the brilliance of its arts and artists, with international award winners in literature, theatre, music and so forth. This achievement must be maximised for the State and the Arts Council intends to work with the tourism bodies to drive cultural tourism during the recession. There should be much stronger linkages between arts events and tourism opportunities, while still maintaining the integrity of both.

The second area where I wish to connect the arts with the national agenda relates to the power of the sector to drive innovation. There is a drive by the Government to make Ireland the innovation island. The arts have a powerful contribution to make. We already know the power of the arts to promote social cohesion and an equitable society, two important ingredients at this difficult point. They can be harnessed, too, to attract investment to Ireland. They are a breeding ground for ideas and talent. Their healthy presence is also vital when company executives come to Ireland to decide on locations for investment. They tend to locate where there is a cultural life. When John F. Kennedy came to Ireland almost half a century ago, he spoke of the remarkable qualities of the Irish. He said they were hope, confidence and imagination. Now more than ever this imagination and creativity need to be harnessed if this is to become the smart economy of the future in technology and other sectors. In my term as chairman I want the Arts Council to have a greater connection with the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and the other job creating agencies of the State. I hope that in time we will bring together artists and companies to converse about innovation, creativity and commercialisation.

The arts are major providers of employment. We estimate that approximately 50,000 are employed, a big percentage of the employed Irish population. The Western Development Commission has estimated that the arts could create another 2,000 jobs in the west. The total potential of the sector is another 10,000 jobs based on international comparisons. The arts sector has the opportunity to be used in back-to-work and other programmes to get through the downturn. I am aware that Deputies on the committee have raised the importance of retaining skills in the sector during the downturn and I agree fully with them. The Arts Council will make the case for the arts to continue to receive funding, given the job creation potential of the sector. We will also make the case for the arts to be a part of the solution in this time of crisis. They can very much facilitate the smart economy drive and the move towards making Ireland the innovation island. One of my objectives as chairman of the council will be to connect the arts with the enterprise and creativity sectors. I will be asking the executive of the Arts Council to look at its organisation so that it can best support the "innovation island" future that Ireland seeks.

While these are dark times, we must look to the opportunities and potential possibilities. We must keep an eye to the future and we must secure an infrastructure for the arts and for the public. We hope Ireland will continue to win on the international stage.

I thank the committee for inviting us here today. I will now ask my colleagues, Philip King and Alan Stanford, to say a few words. Mr. King will address the committee about our unique Irish voice and its part in the arts and culture of our country. Is the Chairman happy with that?

Chairman

I am. I presume there will be short contributions followed by questions.

Mr. Philip King

Tá an-áthas orm a bheith anseo inniu. Bhí sé an deas an chanúint Ultach a chloisint níos luaithe. Ag féachaint timpeall orm feicim go bhfuil daoine anseo ó ghach aird agus áit sa tír agus tá canúint faoi leith ag gach duine.

Everybody here has a specific accent. Everybody sitting in front of me, coming from different parts of the country, has a different voice, accent and locale. Senator Ó Murchú will know that when we speak about regional style in traditional music we have a unique and different voice in different parts of the country. When they are put together we have a unique voice in Ireland itself. This is the resource we cannot open-cast mine; we must preserve it because it is part and parcel of who and want we are.

I live eight miles west of Dingle, looking out at the Blasket Islands. The Nobel laureate, Séamus Heaney, wrote a poem, called The Given Note, about a tune, called Port na bPúcaí, which comes from Blasket Sound and was played by a family called the Dálaighs in that area. At the beginning of the poem, Heaney speaks about from the most westerly Blasket from a dry stone hut, notes coming in on loud weather. These are the notes that are given. These are the assets that are given, the things we pluck out of the air that are part and parcel of who and what we are. They are given and we must respect them. If we do that and hold onto them they become an asset not just for explaining ourselves to ourselves or doing the emotional heavy lifting that will be necessary in these dark and difficult economic times, they will also be a magnet to people from all parts of the world to come here. They will taste the flavour, hear the music, view the painting, see the scenery, and be an inclusive part of who and what we are. This is hugely important.

The story goes that the Ó Dálaigh family from Dún Chaoin had that particular tune, Port na bPúcaí, but where did they get it? They were fishermen and were out in their naomhógs — they do not have currachs in west Kerry. They were fishing one night and afterwards went into the local public house. Somebody took down an old accordion and bashed out the tune. They were asked where they got it from and the fellow said he got it outside. When asked where it was, he said it was there. Heaney picked up on this notion of what is actually given to us. We must look at the three things we have. We have tradition which we must translate and transmit. Those three t's are very important. If we make the time to cherish, respect, hold and be proud of what we have, we can use it to explain ourselves to ourselves. We can also use it to attract a huge number of visitors to this country.

I will stay in my locale for a moment. In west Kerry the Irish language is still extant. The music is vibrant and is passed on orally from generation to generation. That does not mean to say technology has not impacted on our tradition. When our music went to America first, and I looked at this 20 years ago when I made a series called "Bringing It All Back Home", it was impacted upon by technology for the first time. In other words, it probably was recorded for the first time. The indelible thumbprint of the American experience was left on our music because it was played louder and faster in the metropolitan cities of the eastern seaboard of the United States, such as Philadelphia, Boston and New York city, in addition to Chicago in the mid-west. The records were then sent home, we put them on, thought this stuff from America was fantastic and copied it. The American experience left an indelible thumbprint on the way in which we play our music. Our most ubiquitous form of arts practice is our traditional music. Our music came back from America and it took us a long time before we went back to a regional style. That was because a pan-Irish style of playing our music developed which was called the American way of playing. We were influenced by people such as Michael Coleman and many other great musicians who went to the United States.

In the few minutes we have, I am trying to enthuse about and impress upon the members of the committee that we have a really wonderful resource in our arts, culture, language and accent in Ireland. It speaks eloquently to ourselves and those outside the country who want to visit us. Some €7 billion was the out-of-State spend on tourism in 2007, according to Fáilte Ireland's figures. Some €5 billion of that figure was put against what was defined as cultural tourism. We can invite people here to savour what we have. We can wrap our arms around them, as it were. This is an inclusive rather than an exclusive culture. It is very much part and parcel of who and what we are. I could go on for a long time to talk about these things. I will quote Heaney again. In his poem, Postscript, he says we should sometimes take the time to go down to Clare to the Flaggy Shore. At the end of the poem he says: "Useless to think you'll ... capture it ... [but when] big soft buffetings come at the car sideways and catch the heart and blow it open" then something happens. We have the goods. They are a natural, clean resource and part and parcel of what has been given to us. If we protect and develop them, we can share them. If we can trust ourselves to do that, we will have something truly fantastic.

Chairman

Bhí sin iontach suimiúil. Blianta ó shin, ní bheadh muintir Uladh ábalta an tUasal King a thuiscint i nGaeilge os rud é go bhfuil canúint eile aige, ach thug Raidió na Gaeltachta muid go léir le chéile. Beidh níos mó eolais ag an Teachta Dinny McGinley ar sin. Cé go bhfuil níos mó tuisceana agamsa ar chanúint na Mumhan ná ar chanúint an iarthair, is trí Raidió na Gaeltachta a bhfaighim an tuiscint sin. Is é an difear atá idir muidne agus sibhse ná an chanúint agus an dóigh ina labhraimid. Go raibh míle maith agaibh as an léiriú suimiúil a thug sibh dúinn.

Mr. Philip King

Tá fáilte romhat. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Chairman

I now call on Mr. Alan Stanford.

Mr. Alan Stanford

I would like to make a few brief points. The question is always asked: "Why the arts?" For some reason, we always have to justify ourselves more than any other industry in the State. Several thousand years ago, possibly 50,000, a group of men and perhaps women went to work one day. They donned their lumps of wood and bits of stone and trotted off down the path to their daily job, which was to kill an animal or a group of animals. They brought them back and cut them into pieces to cook and eat them. We have no record of what they wore, we do not know where they bought their stone implements or who manufactured them. We know very little about what particular road they took to get there or what absolute method of slaughter they used. We have no record of the recipe they used to cook the meat but we know they did it because at the end of the day they painted it on a wall. They used art to identify who they were, what they did and that they existed.

To the best of my knowledge, the Medicis never painted anything, with the possible exception of the walls of their apartments, although I doubt whether any of them actually ever put a brush into a pot. They were — God between us and all harm — bankers, if it is still legitimate to use such an obscene phrase in these hallowed Houses. Because of them, however, some of the greatest imaginative creations of the Renaissance period still delight us today. When we walk into those churches, or even buildings such as this that were influenced by Renaissance art and the Renaissance mind, to a large extent we must thank that group of far-seeing bankers who said they would pay for it because it was worth it, because it expressed who we were, what we had done and were capable of achieving. The arts are our method for identifying who we are and what we have done. We hope the record of the proceedings of the Houses of the Oireachtas will remain preserved for many thousands of years, but there is the possibility that there will be a fire. The Custom House burned down once. That is how Micheál Mac Liammóir managed to pretend he was Irish for the majority of his life. There was no record of his birth but there is a hell of a record of his artistic achievements because it does not need paper to show them. The record of what we are is the art we create.

Art in this country is not a luxury. It is part of the right of every citizen to be exposed to and partake of art because every citizen has the right to that modem of expression and identification. We are very proud when our artists are successful. My colleague, Mr. King, mentioned probably our greatest poet — I am not saying our greatest living poet — Seamus Heaney. In my walk of life I can mention people who have enjoyed huge success and whose names are often bandied around such as Gabriel Byrne, Liam Neeson, Cillian Murphy and Brendan Gleeson. They are our Hollywood stars. In previous generations we had others such as Richard Harris. Of the present generation those are four names which everybody in the country, certainly everyone in this room, would recognise. They did not get there by making movies in Hollywood but by a line of natural progression, starting out with small companies such as the Passion Machine or in small theatres such as the Focus and the Project, before moving on to the Gate and the Abbey, slowly building their careers step by subsidised step. The reason we are all very proud of their existence and what they have done is that the State nurtured them as artists and gave them the opportunities or the stepping stones to their successful careers in Hollywood.

It does not apply just to the theatre. Let us take writers such as Sebastian Barry or Anne Enright who won the Booker Prize. The Booker Prize does not come out of the blue; it is the bursaries that lead to the Booker Prize. Bursaries, small sums of money, enable writers to keep going and maintain their skill and craft. It is the funding the State owes to the creative minds of artists in the way that it owes to the innovative minds of entrepreneur and the determined and skilled mind of the practitioner, the labourer and the artisan. It owes them because it is supported and recorded by them. On that subject — I have said this previously and will say it many times again — the man and woman who pay their taxes in Caherciveen and Belmullet are as entitled to the same opportunity and access to the arts as the person who pays his or her taxes in Dublin 4 and Dublin 6. Sadly, there is little opportunity for the taxpayer in Caherciveen and Belmullet to do so — I pick those two towns at random since they happen to be as far away on the western seaboard as I can imagine — because there are inadequate resources made available to bring the arts to them. Touring, not just of theatre productions but of all art, has become a necessity, not a luxury, because it is the best way to achieve the greatest value for money for the art we create and guarantee that everybody who pays for it will have an opportunity to experience it.

In this country we have a proud but not vast tradition of opera. We have a small opera festival in Wexford, one that has attracted audiences from all over the world and which has a reputation for being world class. In Dublin we have an extremely efficiently operated and artistically fine opera company called Opera Ireland. We also have a small scale chamber opera theatre company which tours everywhere imaginable, including caves on Valentia Island. We fund these three opera companies with less money than it takes to fund one small to medium sized opera house anywhere in Europe, in other words, what we do with the resources given to us is nothing short of a miracle. The reality, as we have said, is that with less money available, it is no longer a case of how much more can we tighten the belt. With less money, we can say goodbye to the arts in Ireland. That is the cold reality. Theatre companies survived the previous cutbacks by virtue of the fact that those who ran them, including me, stopped taking wages. That will not happen anymore, as nobody can afford to do so.

Another phrase I constantly repeat — I said it the last time I sat in this room — is that the greatest subsidy for Irish theatre does not come from the members, the elected representatives, and through us, the Arts Council, but from the practitioners who earn less and less in proportion every year. Without the ability to adequately fund them we are reaching the point where there will be no arts. We are not here with a begging bowl but to ask the committee to support us and ensure that at least current levels can be maintained because every cent given is used, not wisely or well, but quite brilliantly.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Stanford for his presentation. His final comments were important to us — that it is necessary to maintain current levels of funding. The private sector also makes a contribution and it is now under pressure. Coming from west Donegal, I am not one who is very familiar with the National Concert Hall. However, I was there deliberately on Monday night when Barry Douglas from Northern Ireland performed. Ironically, the global sponsor happened to be a Northern Ireland company, Randox. Therefore, the private sector also plays an important role, of which I am conscious. No doubt when we have a discussion after the departure of our guests, we certainly take this into consideration.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

Mr. King and Mr. Stanford tried to enthuse us, whereas Ms Moylan concentrated on the financial aspects. They are probably speaking to the converted and put it so much better than we ever could. I thank them for their presentations.

I wish Ms Moylan the very best in her new role in the Arts Council. I think I speak for everybody in that regard. We are all conscious that she is taking over at the council at a difficult time. She mentioned something I had said to her recently, that the only good news stories coming out of Ireland were coming from the arts. That is true. There was never a time when we needed more good news stories. Film, of which Mr. Stanford spoke, literature and music have given Irish people something of which to be proud. They have rallied to our international acclaim.

The main thrust of Ms Moylan's contribution relates to how the Arts Council will survive in these difficult times. I do not believe matters will improve in the near future. Artists are mobile and can leave the country very quickly. If they are starving, they will certainly do so. Even in the good times, certain venues operated at the edge of viability. Ms Moylan referred to the partnership with the Temple Bar Trust which is designed to build audiences. She also referred to the need to support touring artists. Unless the very best performers are encouraged to tour the regions, people will not attend performances. There is a great deal of work to be done in this regard. However, the council is going the right way about it because it recognises the issues on which it must concentrate. We need to get a bang for our buck. There is no point putting on performances if houses are half empty.

Ms Moylan also referred to the link between the arts and tourism. We would all be interested in discovering what synergies might be created in this regard. Ms Moylan referred to maximising value. There is a great deal to be done in bringing the arts and the tourism industry together. It may be somewhat crass to state there is a great deal of money to be made from tourism. Ms Moylan referred to maintaining the integrity of the arts. In the context of cultural tourism, the OPW is extremely precious with regard to the sites for which it has responsibility. We can no longer afford to be precious. We must put our shoulders to the wheel and be conscious of the fact that we are operating in a completely different environment. If there is value to be obtained from bringing the two industries together, we should ensure this occurs. I am of the view that there is much more value to be had in this regard.

I agree that in periods of economic decline, innovation, creativity and lateral thinking are precisely what the country needs. For that reason, members would be anxious to support the arts in any way possible. I think I speak for everyone when I say we will do whatever can do to ensure that, in so far as is possible, the flow of funds to the arts — limited though it may be — will be protected.

It has been stated funds also come from the private sector. However, further funding can be availed of through the per cent for art scheme, to which reference was not made. This scheme is going to take a major hit because capital projects will not be proceeding. Has the Arts Council factored this into its analysis? Is there anything members might do to try to mitigate the loss of the per cent for art scheme?

Deputy Michael Kennedy took the Chair.

Deputy Mary Upton

I welcome Ms Moylan and her colleagues. I wish her well in her new role. I thank Mr. Stanford and Mr. King for their extremely passionate contributions. It was almost as if we were in a theatre and I was almost prompted to applaud when they concluded.

As Deputy Mitchell stated, our guests are pushing an open door. As the Labour Party's spokesperson on the arts, I will be doing my best to protect any funding over which Members of the Oireachtas may be able to exert influence. It is true that to some extent the arts are seen as an easy option in the context of their being targeted for cuts. We must be realistic about this. Matters are not the way they should be because if one considers the practical issues raised by our guests — namely, the employment created by the arts, the amount of money taken in via cultural tourism, etc. — it is obvious these are extremely important to the country. From that point of view, we should be extremely cautious in how we should set about protecting the Arts Council's income.

Ms Moylan is correct in her assertion that the real saving to the Exchequer from further cutbacks would be minimal because almost all of those who might lose their jobs as a result of these cutbacks would be obliged to claim jobseeker's benefit or allowance. Let us keep them in employment and doing something which is constructive and contributes to the overall well-being of the population.

It was an absolute privilege to attend one of the performances of the touring version of "Waiting for Godot". There is a need for similar tours of other plays and such tours should include performances in places such as Belmullet and Caherciveen. I represent a Dublin constituency and it is, therefore, relatively easy for me to attend whatever plays are being staged. However, people in rural areas do not have the same opportunities. I am sure colleagues from other constituencies will have much to say about how the arts should be brought to other parts of the country.

Ms Moylan has stated the level of involvement in the arts is greater than that in the GAA or politics. When we are speaking in the Dáil Chamber, we sometimes are of the view that we are present in a theatre. The arts, therefore, do not have exclusive rights in respect of some of the theatrics that take place.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Deputy had trouble with her lines last week.

Deputy Mary Upton

Did I steal somebody's lines? More plagiarism.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

That is not what I was referring to.

Deputy Mary Upton

In the context of the smart economy, a person informed me last week that we were extremely fixated on science and technology. As I am a scientist, I am very much in favour of this. However, a balance must be struck and we need to take account of people who have ideas and imagination and are innovative. It is in this context that the arts come into play and can make a good contribution. They provide a good breeding ground for ideas and innovation, which should not be overlooked. Their ability to create employment is also extremely important.

I recently read a document which was authored by Emer O'Kelly and published in 2007. In it she states the Arts Council has a duty to elitism. Will our guests provide their views in that regard? I am of the opinion that her comment is correct, but not exclusively so. The council does have a duty to elitism and to produce and present the best. However, it also has a duty to engage those who are not the very best practitioners of their art. Their contribution may not necessarily be seen as being high powered or innovative. However, it is important that we engage with as many as possible and that our definition of art is such that individuals who may not be recognised as being part of the elite brigade will be included. It is important that we should pursue the highest standards and contribute to the elitism aspect. However, there must be an effort to encourage and include anyone who wishes to make a contribution to the arts.

Deputy Wall could not be present because he was obliged to attend another meeting. However, he asked me to remind our guests that at a previous meeting it was stated the Arts Council would support pipe bands and to inquire as to the current position in this regard. What is our guests' opinion on the artists' tax exemption scheme? Are they of the view that the cap of €250,000 is generous?

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Chathaoirleach nua agus roimh an toscaireacht. Bhí sé spreagúil go dtí seo agus cruthaíonn sin go mbaineann seo leis an gcroí agus leis an anam freisin. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil an toscaireacht tar éis an-chur i láthair a dhéanamh iagus tá mé cinnte go ndeachaigh siad i bhfeidhm go mór ar chuile ball den choiste seo. Sin mar is ceart.

I welcome the new chairperson of the Arts Council and wish her the best of luck. Her contribution was not only balanced, it was also particularly seductive and motivational in many ways. Any presentation on the arts should be motivational. Ms Moylan provided a great overview of the council's current position. She also set out her stall in respect of her vision for the future.

Mr. Stanford put his finger on it exceptionally well when he said that when it came to the arts, we always had to justify ourselves. That is frightening. I can never understand why that is the case because anybody who is open-minded realises how important the arts are, not only spiritually to us as a people but economically. When Mr. King referred to the community aspect and the notes coming in on the waves and so on, that is exactly as it is because, at the end of the day, on the foundation of the Young Irelanders at the darkest time in Irish history in the Famine environment, they made it clear that the first thing they had to do was engage with the soul of the people, the culture and what made us a special people. Everything else emanated from this. Anybody who is a historian realises that without that focus we would not be where we are today.

We will all be sad if funding for the arts is reduced. We must acknowledge the current economic climate but, reading between the lines, the delegation believes further reductions are on the way. I hope that is not the case because it would seriously impact on the State and us as a people. When one considers that the diaspora comprises more than 40 million people alone in North America, they look to us for the same reasons. They do not only think of economic development because that does not impact on them but, in terms of their identity, there is no question whatsoever that the message coming from Ireland regarding the richness of the arts and so on makes them proud and enables them to feel different and distinctive as a people while, at the same time, integrating in their adopted country. I am glad emphasis has been placed on this in the presentation because it must echo further afield. The Arts Council has created that echo for us.

I have a great belief in the community being the nursery of the arts because many of those who have come to the fore and become household names and gained international prominence were often nurtured within their own community. I refer to the amateur arts in that sense because if one considers the way they come through the local societies and so on, they are given confidence and an introduction to the arts world. The question asked regarding the pipe bands fits into this. I hope it will be possible for the Arts Council to continue to interact at community level in that way. This does not take away from the need for professional status for the arts because if it is not cultivated, the very people in the community who want to develop their own cultural characteristics and artistic ability will be unable to do so if there is not a base and a platform.

I refer to cultural tourism. I do not know if it was always at the top of the priority list for the Arts Council but I have noticed during its recent appearances before the committee this issue coming to the fore and that is right. It was raised by one member of the delegation in the context of maintaining the integrity of the arts at the same time. Apart from the economic advantages of cultural tourism, which are significant, it is one the reasons there should be proper funding of the arts because it is not something for nothing. VAT is paid. I can point to the All-Ireland Fleadh Cheoil, a gathering of 250,000 people generating more than €30 million annually. One can work out what that means to the State's coffers and multiply it by the figure for the 45 local fleadhanna cheoil held each year. That can apply to every festival. We should not believe we are getting something for nothing when funding is provided for the arts. There is more to cultural tourism than this because the millions who visit and experience Ireland on that basis will leave with a positive perception of the country. It has an impact. The last major survey of tourism many years ago had national monuments at the top of the list, which is understandable, but this was followed by theatre and traditional music and so on in the top six. By including cultural tourism strongly in its vision for the future, the Arts Council will do the right thing.

The representatives are pushing an open door at this committee. It is matter of showing who we are as a people, as Mr. King said, and if we do not do so, we will be faced by much more than economic bankruptcy. We will be bankrupt as a people, which is more important.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I would like to raise two issues relating to Cork. I thank the delegation for attending because it is important that we acknowledge the Arts Council's work. Why was funding for Opera 2005, a Cork-based company, reduced to zero by the Minister? Mr. Stanford referred to the issue of touring. Cork has the Everyman Theatre and the Opera House, two fine institutions. However, they are under pressure, particularly the Everyman Theatre. I am concerned the case is not being made to have events moved from Dublin to Cork. We had a great year in 2005 as the European City of Culture but the impetus has since been lost. What is the blueprint in this regard?

Mr. Alan Stanford

As I pointed out, we have traditionally and for a long time supported three basic opera companies — Opera Ireland, a national opera; Wexford opera, an international festival; and the Opera Theatre Company, a national touring opera. We funded the Opera 2005 company after the cultural year; it was assistance to keep it going as opposed to a guaranteed grant. The simple reality is we cannot afford to fund any more than we are. Our opera fund is stretched to breaking point with our long-term commitments; therefore, the notion of taking on more is beyond measure. We did the best we could for a short period to give it some encouragement but the reality is we do not have the resources to make it a long-term client.

Deputy Pat The Cope Gallagher took the Chair.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

A reduction in funding from €110,000 to zero is a major gap.

Mr. Alan Stanford

I know. The Senator will also notice that funding for the Abbey Theatre dropped by €2 million. There are certain realities; we cannot afford to fund an opera company for a particular city when we consider the three opera organisations we have are national.

I agree completely with the Senator that many theatres are under pressure. They do not have enough product. I take two productions a year to the Everyman Theatre. It is a nightmare of expense and I have done this for years without any touring subsidy. I have received one touring grant in the past six years. As a council, we agree completely. Bringing high calibre art around the country is our major priority. We are utterly committed to the notion of touring which has become part of the internal cant of the Arts Council. It is a matter of finding the resources to do it.

Ms Pat Moylan

We have dealt with the question on touring.

Mr. Alan Stanford

Following on the point made by the Chair, I would like to make a further point. We all know about the Godot tour since the theatre ensured everybody in the country and their cats knew about it. It was incredibly well marketed and presented, and quite well acted. It played in 40 venues. To play 40 venues over the 32 counties in the space of eight weeks on a one-night only tour was a major event. If it had not been for the Arts Council, that would not have happened. Also, had it not been for the intervention of one of the banks, it would not have happened. For companies that have depended as much on private funding as on public funding, funding is drying up at an even faster rate. The Godot tour, which was such a success, was a flagship tour. It proved we can take productions not merely to the big venues such as the Millennium Theatre in Derry, the Everyman Theatre in Cork and similar venues, but also to venues like the Glen Centre in Manorhamilton in County Leitrim, where 140 people booked four months ahead so they could see this presentation in their hometown theatre. That was remarkable. However, it will not happen again because not only is Arts Council money drying up, private funding is also drying up. That resource is disappearing.

Mr. Philip King

May I make a point? The great Irish phrase, Ní neart go cur le chéile — we will be strong if we pull together – says it all. We have the Arts Council, Culture Ireland, RTÉ and a whole range of different agencies that have as their core mission statements, the development and propagation of the arts and culture in the broadest possible terms. If we can find ways to pull together, we can do well. This will involve sponsorship, banks and various groups coming together to enable things to happen. This is vital.

Deputy Michael Ring

The Arts Council is the premier body, but why are there so many other agencies all claiming to be doing the same job and drawing funds from the Exchequer? Why can it not all go through the Arts Council? Why can we not provide it with a generous budget rather than having so many bodies, like Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, drawing down from the State? Can the delegation respond to that now? I have some further questions to put then.

Chairman

I want to put some structure on the debate. We have other people who want to contribute also. Let us try and have some structure.

Ms Pat Moylan

A question was asked about the tax exemption for artists and perhaps Ms Cloake would say something on that.

Ms Mary Cloake

The specific question was whether €250,000 was too high a threshold. It is not. The value of the artists' tax exemption cannot be over-emphasised. Mr. King was going to talk from personal experience about how this has kept Ireland's reputation for the arts well ahead of all the other European countries, even in previous times of economic recession. I do not know if the Deputy was here when John McGahern came to talk to the committee. He said it might take him three or four years to write a book and the €250,000 he might earn from that book could have to last him for those three or four years. Artists' incomes do not only fluctuate up and down, but are also sporadic. Therefore, €250,000 is a reasonable threshold.

Ms Pat Moylan

I would like to add to that. We saw from the documentary shown on Hugh Leonard after his death that he returned home from Manchester because of the exemption and that was the reason he stayed working in Ireland.

I will ask Ms Cloake to respond on the issue of pipe bands.

Ms Mary Cloake

We were very glad about the questions asked of us on our previous appearance before the committee. I am sorry Deputy Wall cannot be here today because as a result of the urging of this committee and the Deputy, and the assistance of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, we now have a brilliant new scheme for pipe bands, for the first time in ten years of funding pipe bands. The scheme operates through Music Network and is dependent on capital funds. We hope capital funding will be maintained. Last year's awards were announced before Christmas and all kinds of bands — pipe, jazz, fife and drum and samba bands — have been able to get instruments through the fund. We are pleased about that. We also fund the Irish Pipe Band Association. We are delighted to be able to report this change since last year.

Ms Pat Moylan

Does Ms Cloake want to deal with the per cent for art scheme?

Ms Mary Cloake

Deputy Mitchell pointed out the funds will fall, but there is a real opportunity now to make maximum use of the brilliant schemes we have in operation. I am concerned that in a number of counties where per cent for art schemes have been approved and moneys are available, people are a little reluctant to go ahead with the schemes. In County Monaghan, for example, there are some brilliant schemes. There is also, for example, a scheme for a flying pig over Castlebar in the pipeline. I hope such schemes will be completed. We must appreciate the ones we have and work carefully on those planned. Even though there is not much money around for development, there will be some. We must ensure the ones we have are at the best standard. If we succeed in that we will do well over the next few years.

The Arts Council, working with the Department, has convened an advisory group on public art and will launch a new website —www.publicart.ie — this year. This will have images of the various works around the country and will provide notes on how students in schools might enjoy them. People who do not like particular pieces will get the opportunity to contribute to a blog and comment. Exploiting the public art we have will be our task for the next few years.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

In the past, many of us felt we were not getting the best value for money and that there seemed to be a fixation with sculpture. I understand the freedom exists to fund performance also or an individual artist's work.

Ms Mary Cloake

There have been a number of excellent music commissions. The idea of creating a new piece of music can be linked to what Mr. King said about this being part of what we are. This is exciting and we are getting better at it.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

The Arts Council is in a position to advise local authorities.

Ms Pat Moylan

Deputy Mitchell is the only Deputy I have met since I was appointed. One thing she said to me was that the arts are the good news story coming out of Ireland. I have been quoting her since and given her credit for that, even if I failed to do that today.

Deputy Upton asked about elitism in the arts and perhaps Mr. Stanford will deal with that.

Mr. Alan Stanford

"Elitism" is a dangerous and provocative word. I believe in elitism in that I believe part of the purpose of the professional practitioner of the arts — any art form — is to strive towards excellence. I do not go on stage to be mediocre. I do not collect together a group of actors and direct them in order to stage a mediocre or average production. My intention is to achieve excellence, even if I only seldom do so. A poet does not sit down to write an average poem. The poet may be average, but his attempt is not to be average, but to be better. It is to strive towards a kind of perfection.

I do not believe that we as a council should deal only with the elite. We should encourage the developing talent and the developing ability but only to the extent that we believe it could become the best. I see no valid reason to support continually that which is continually average. We should always strive to make that which is average better and that which is better best. That should be our intention. That said, we do not simply fund artists on the notion of writing the great play or the great poem or painting the great painting or sculpting the great sculpture. We also have programmes that will put artists into the workplace, hospitals and schools to introduce art to the majority of the public as a form, discipline or potential career and certainly as a potential source of enjoyment and education. On that level, I believe we are elite as well. We should aim for elitism on that level. We should not apply the adage "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach" in those situations. We should be putting the best into those situations to get the best out of them.

I do not like the word "elitism". I know what was intended but I think it was an unfortunate word because it tends to imply exclusivity. I do not think that is what Ms O'Kelly was really talking about and I do not think that is what we are striving for.

Chairman

I will proceed with contributions from members.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I welcome the members of the delegation to the meeting. I will try not to make an average contribution but rather try to make an excellent contribution. My background is in the arts and I was very lucky to have been inspired by Anne Crookshank at the department of fine art in Trinity College and Roger Stalley who taught me to look at cathedrals and try to find out what he called the witticisms of the chisel by looking at the carvings on the capitals. This has inspired me to keep my eyes open and to be observant. I now find myself as a reasonably newly elected Deputy for Carlow-Kilkenny, which has a wonderful city in Kilkenny with its wonderful heritage, cathedrals, heritage council and centre for the arts. In Carlow we are about to launch our new visual project and our new George Bernard Shaw theatre for which we have received great funding from the Arts Council and the local authority.

Bizarre as it might seem, I believe that in times of recession we have to get bigger and better, not think meanly in a little hole. We must expand ourselves instead. I remember talking to a group of older people who were talking about downsizing their houses and one woman with fantastic scarlet hair said to me she wanted a bigger house, that she wanted to get a bigger everything as she headed towards her 90s and that she wanted to experience everything in life to the full. This is what we should be trying to do in a recession — to get as much money as possible into the arts. Almost 400,000 people are unemployed and they will visit our museums and libraries and everything that is free. It could be the case that people who have never experienced the arts in their lives will suddenly be touched by what is on offer for free in many cases. We must bring them the best in art, painting, music, choral work, the visual arts or whatever. I will be keeping a good eye on the Minister, Deputy Cullen, to ensure neither he nor the so-called bord snip nua makes severe cutbacks in the arts. At a time of depression and economic slowdown, we have to give hope by means of the arts.

In my own constituency, "Fiddler on the Roof" is playing for seven days starting on Easter Sunday. It is a small amateur group which is getting together, rehearsing seven nights a week, putting on make-up and singing their little songs. This is the heart of community arts. The artslink programme links the arts programme in the six counties in the south east. It is a wonderful opportunity for artists to tell people what they are doing and it is a matter of clicking onto the website to find out what is happening in Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford, Wicklow and Waterford. This should be replicated everywhere. Our local authority arts officers are under-utilised treasures and we need to ensure they are supported by the local authorities and not subject to cutbacks.

Deputy Seán Connick

I welcome everybody from the Arts Council to the meeting and I wish Ms Pat Moylan all the best in her new role. I compliment both Alan Stanford and Philip King on their magnificent contributions. I am sorry there was not applause because I felt like clapping myself and I was just waiting for someone to initiate it. They spoke passionately and passion is what art is all about.

There have been a few references to Wexford in the presentation. We are very lucky in New Ross, where I come from, to have St. Michael's theatre which is a fantastic facility. I saw "Waiting for Godot" there when it was on tour. I remember when I was growing up my first time going into that theatre. I saw either Tops of the Town or Slógadh Náisiúnta, which I would love to see re-invented and brought back because it was a fantastic outlet for young people to allow them explore the arts. It was traditional Irish music but we also converted the modern pop songs as Gaeilge. It was great to be present in the theatre for the pantomime or Tops of the Town. I was on stage on some occasions or else in the pit and then producing shows. The theatre was a magnificent venue. Last year St. Michael's theatre provided about 300 nights of entertainment which is a great achievement for a small town of 6,500 people. I have been on the board of the theatre and I am always conscious that the funding streams for theatres are dependent on the contribution from the local authorities. I wonder about the link because sometimes this puts pressure on the theatre. If the county council is giving €10,000 or €20,000, I wonder about the linkage and whether this could be broken.

We talked about cultural tourism. I am founding chairman of the JFK Dunbrody festival. When we launched the emigrant ship Dunbrody in New Ross, the thinking behind it was the link between JFK and emigration, hence the JFK Dunbrody festival. We are now entering our ninth year and we are planning events at the moment. We spend approximately €100,000 on that festival every year. It is a combination of street theatre, music, live stage music and shows, including artists’ exhibitions. It is a three-day event. Our investment of €100,000 returns about €3 million to the local economy. It is a phenomenal return for the level of investment and if that was multiplied throughout the country there could be a spin-off of extra investment in the economy, especially at this time. More than ever we require the investment in the arts to give people a break. I attended the local choral society’s production of “Some Like it Hot” last Thursday night and after a hard week in the Dáil, it was great to go back and just sit in the theatre in the dark and enjoy a show for a few hours.

We must ensure the funding for festivals continues. We alluded earlier to small amounts of money having such a huge impact, particularly on smaller communities. I hope that funding stream will be maintained. We have never been successful ourselves with funding from the Arts Council and we have always got funding through the small festival events. We have found it very difficult to access Arts Council funding as a community festival.

We are blessed in County Wexford with many great festivals, including the opera festival in the magnificent opera house which is the most stunning facility in the country. Anyone who has not seen it should visit it as it is a magnificent hall. I refer to the diversity of the festivals, whether it is the Phil Murphy weekend in Carrig on Bannow which attracts many great individuals or our own JFK Dunbrody festival or the strawberry festival. They all generate income and give the opportunity to artists to showcase their work. They are all very important. I ask for the view of the Arts Council about funding.

I refer to new areas for which it is difficult to obtain funding such as schools of rock where young people are getting together. We are able to source a small grant for equipment such as amplifiers and guitars. However, we are not able to access further funding for this purpose. It is amazing to see as many as 70 children coming together on a Saturday morning to educate themselves and learn about rock music, song writing and so forth. Incidentally, these children participate in community festivals or hold their own concerts. These rock schools are a magnificent outlet for teenagers and young people. This can also be translated into traditional Irish music and other activities. I find that I come up against a brick wall when trying to access funding. Those involved in these activities would be able to do a great deal with small sums, for example, €5,000.

I referred to the nationwide "Waiting for Godot" tour. It was fantastic that the play was performed in rural areas. It played to a full house in New Ross where the theatre has a capacity of 329. I hope this excellent work continues.

I am a major fan of the per cent for art scheme. The arts officer in County Wexford, Rosaleen Molloy, is fantastic. The scheme in the county has diversified significantly from sculptures. For example, a work commissioned by Vincent Kennedy resulted in eight pieces of music entitled Off The Hook: A Place & A People. In addition to touring the county, a performance of the work which I attended was given in the National Concert Hall. The per cent for art scheme has produced some fantastic results. I understand it is not linked with Arts Council funding and will not be affected by reductions in the council's budget. It is funded solely on the basis of the value of capital projects carried out in county council areas. I am pleased to note our guests have confirmed that funding for the programme is not linked with Arts Council funding.

Mr. King and Mr. Stanford spoke passionately about the arts, the modest funding available to them and the major contribution they made to society. I was one of those who raised the issue of pipe bands at our previous meeting and I am pleased Ms Cloake raised it again. Brian McMahon is one of the country's leading lights in pipe band education. I had the pleasure of attending a performance of the youth pipe band of the New Ross and District Pipe Band in St. Michael's Theatre in New Ross. The concert brought together 150 young people who were learning to play pipes and drums. It was a magnificent concert but the band lacks funding. Incidentally, we applied to the Arts Council to secure funding for the New Ross and Campile pipe bands but unfortunately our application was unsuccessful. I am disappointed we did not get a few bob but delighted funding has been made available for pipe bands. I am hopeful the scheme will be rolled out again this year and that we may be more fortunate.

As I stated, I am passionate about all aspects of music. I had the pleasure of working with Mr. King many years ago when we produced a four-track EP entitled Cooler at the Edge which dates back to Mr. King's period as a member of the band Scullion. I left the record industry, whereas he obviously remained in it for another while. Like me, however, he has moved on to newer pastures.

The delegation is preaching to the converted because many members of the joint committee are passionate about music and the arts in general and want funding for the Arts Council to be maintained at a high level. If I had my way, I would double its funding because one cannot put a price on the return on its expenditure. As I stated, it has never been more important to support the council than at this time.

Deputy Michael Ring

I will start on a positive note before registering my disagreement with Ms Cloake on one issue. Mr. Stanford is correct that the arts should be for everybody. People everywhere, whether in Belmullet, Bangor or Dublin 4, should have access to them.

I was vice chairman of the arts committee of Mayo County Council when no one else wanted to join the committee. Once I became a member, I soon found that I enjoyed the work. During the years local authorities in rural areas have done more for the arts than the Arts Council. We targeted the people to whom our guests referred, including, for example, women in Belmullet or Tallaght who were highly talented but did not have an opportunity or sufficient confidence or belief in themselves to express themselves. We brought them into small groups and found wonderful talent in County Mayo. Members of these groups have expressed themselves well and done well for themselves. This opportunity would not otherwise have been available to them.

I am supportive of the arts and regard the cut in the budget of the Arts Council as a disgrace. I disagree with Ms Cloake, however, on the tax exemption scheme for artists. The €250,000 threshold is too generous and needs to be reviewed. The problem lies not with those who use the scheme but with those who abuse it. I could give two or three examples of such abuse but do not propose to do so. Revenue has removed eligibility for the scheme from certain individuals who used it because certain matters were discovered at a later stage. The threshold is too generous in the current climate. Those who can pay tax should do so, while those who need help should be supported.

Last night, for the first time, I visited the former House of Lords in the Bank of Ireland building on College Green. It is a most beautiful building. To stand in it and look around and see such beauty and art is something else. David O'Leary, a young tenor and beautiful singer, was performing. He is starting off his career but finding it difficult. He has been forced to go to America to try to make a living while continuing his education. People like him need to be supported but when he makes it and is able to pay tax, he should do so. Ms Cloake and I can disagree on this. Someone from her profession rubbished what I had to say on "Morning Ireland". While I did not mind what I have to say being rubbished, the person in question did not have the courage or guts to appear on the programme at the same time as me. I blame RTE for this. All I asked was that the scheme be reviewed. There is nothing wrong with examining accounts or reviewing the scheme. If it is working well, it should be left alone but if it is being abused and its beneficiaries are in a position to pay tax, they should do so. On the programme in question, the name of a person who was being buried on the same day was used. People such as Bono can well afford to pay tax and should not avail of the scheme.

I have supported the arts for a long time and there are many artists in my county. The only problem I have with the Arts Council — it is one I raise every year — concerns the manner in which it allocates funding. I find it does not spend enough in rural areas, especially County Mayo where support and assistance are badly needed. I will always support the arts.

When Deputy Michael D. Higgins was Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, we sought to have a facility established in Westport for young local artists. I applied pressure on the then Minister to ensure this facility was provided in the town. The venue in question was established and has gone from strength to strength. Every year I buy something from a local artist to give a little help and support. While I support the position taken by the Arts Council on most issues, I do not agree with in on the €250,000 threshold for the tax exemption scheme. However, I do not propose to have an argument about the issue today. The scheme should be reviewed and those who can pay should pay, while those who need help, of whom there are many in the arts world, should be supported, even if it is just to keep bread and butter on the table.

Art is wonderful and it is shameful that persons with talent are prevented from expressing their gifts. If any agency, whether a county council or the Arts Council, can provide support, it should do so. I will support and assist the Arts Council to ensure its budget is maintained. On the other hand, I will put pressure on the Minister for Finance to examine the tax exemption scheme for artists. While he may argue that the scheme only costs €28 million per annum, this sum would go a long way towards addressing the problems being experienced by the council.

Deputy Áine Brady

As someone who grew up in a household where appreciation of and participation in the arts was more important than academic performance, I thoroughly enjoyed the presentation. I thank our guests for the enthusiasm and passion they have shown.

On local authority involvement in the arts, particularly at community level, last Sunday I participated in the celebration of International Women's Day in Kildare when the local authority and the Kildare cohesion group, Aras Chill Dara, facilitated an arts forum for women in a mixed housing estate. It was lovely to see the friendships which were formed in workshops on poetry, pottery and painting. I was present for the feedback element of the workshops and made a contribution on behalf of women in politics to celebrate the day. It was lovely to see that and to see the facilitation from those two groups in Kildare in making a wonderful celebration of International Women's Day. It was great to see the support and the creation of a new community in north Kildare.

The Chairman indicated in his report that Arts Council funding often helps organisations to attract significant additional resources. I had the privilege to see Alan Stanford in "Waiting for Godot" in the Moat Theatre in Naas and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The theatre was refused a grant by the Arts Council this year although it received a small grant in recent years. As a result, the theatre will not be able to avail of the support of Kildare County Council. It is a chicken and egg situation. If one gets funding from one source, one will not get the other, and vice versa. Naas Town Council depends on Kildare County Council and it depends on the Arts Council. I find that very frustrating. The Moat Theatre is a wonderful theatre and it is doing a wonderful job in the community.

Many members have spoken about rural communities. Deputy Ring rightly spoke up for his own community in Mayo. I was a member of an amateur drama group and having travelled the country with it I would say there are far more facilities in rural Ireland than in what I call the urban fringe around Dublin, such as in places that I represent in north Kildare, where we are very lacking in community facilities. I accept we have a beautiful theatre in the Moat, which we do appreciate, but it is sad that it did not get funding this year. I am aware that those in the Arts Council had to make difficult decisions and I am sure there were good reasons for it but I was personally disappointed by that.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I apologise for slipping in and out of the room but I am doubly committed to meetings. The delegation from the Arts Council is very welcome. I have a particular interest in the arts. I am disappointed that the budget has reduced but if one puts it in perspective, the budget in the previous two years increased fairly dramatically and in spite of a reduction of €7 million, €79 million is still a substantial amount of money.

Deputy Ring criticised the Arts Council on the one hand and then he made the point that county councils are the vehicles that provide most arts funding. I share that view. I come from Fingal County Council where there is an active arts officer and a good arts base within the county, even though there is nothing in the county town of Swords. I hope at some stage the county council will go to the Arts Council with a proposal.

Reference was made in the report to a community employment scheme for the unemployed. There is an opportunity for community employment schemes in the arts to upgrade facilities in various counties. Do the witnesses have any views on that matter or have they considered it?

I am not a wonderful advocate of hip-hop but it is very much part and parcel of life. The RTE talent programme features hip-hop artists from five years of age upwards. One group from my area was on the show last Sunday. A group in Swords made representations to me on VAT status. Most cultural organisations are zero-rated for VAT. The group told me the Arts Council is one of the barriers to ensuring hip-hop facilities do not have to pay VAT. There is a facility in Airside in Swords that is struggling to maintain its viability. It does not just cater for hip-hop but provides ballet classes and other artistic activities and it is suffering currently due to having to pay VAT. It has suggested to me that one of the problems the Minister has in considering its request is that the Arts Council and the arts bodies do not consider hip-hop as an artistic activity. I invite a comment on that from the witnesses.

In regard to cultural tourism, there is no doubt that €5 billion of turnover speaks for itself. The greatest way to grow our tourism business is through the arts. For example, the local festivals in the summer or at other times in Belmullet, Swords, Wexford or wherever all generate revenue. They make their own case. In terms of the Arts Council looking for funding, it should be through the medium of cultural tourism, as we can all gain from that — the country and the Arts Council. I welcome comments in that regard.

Chairman

That concludes the contributions. There is an opportunity now for the witnesses to respond.

Ms Pat Moylan

Perhaps I can put hip-hop and rock bands into the same category. I will ask Mr. King, as the music expert, to reply to those questions.

Mr. Philip King

I am interested in Deputy Connick's question about the rock and pop end of things. I was part of a committee that was set up to examine the traditional arts some years ago. The Arts Council now encompasses a policy on the traditional arts and we have begun to look at rock music and pop music. We had a valuable get-together last year. We all sat around the table with some interested parties from the rock world in the broadest sense and considered how best the Arts Council could facilitate taking on board the whole area of rock and popular music. Let us look at what Jerome Morrissey has achieved with the rock school in Ballyfermot or what happens in the sound training centre in the Temple Bar Music Centre and the various different nodes of it that are around the country.

That addresses Deputy Ring's point in a tangential way in terms of the artists' exemption. When we encourage this area we are encouraging a development in technological skills but we are also encouraging a creation of new intellectual property. We are talking about new song writing and new bodies of work that can become real sources of income. There was a time when one approached a bank and said "I am an artist", and the response was "Talk to me about bricks and mortar and we will talk to you". Let us consider intellectual property or an abstract concept like an idea. We are marketing ourselves as a smart economy, as an innovative society where we operate at the top innovative and imaginative level. To answer the question in a roundabout kind of way, it behoves the Arts Council to look at this particular area and to develop a policy for it.

Ms Pat Moylan

I am glad Deputy Kennedy mentioned the word "VAT", which is a kind of buzz word around my head since I have taken up this appointment. Perhaps Mr. Stanford can clarify the situation with regard to VAT.

Mr. Alan Stanford

To an extent, VAT is a dirty word in the arts, especially in the theatre because we all know that theatre is zero-rated for VAT, which does not benefit us to the degree that one might think, in that we do not pay VAT on theatre tickets but we cannot claim back anything else on which we pay VAT. The write-off of income against expenditure leaves us in a negative state because for every piece of printing that is done, every costume that is purchased or made, every piece of scenery that is built or every prop that is bought to be used in a play, we pay 21% VAT and we cannot claim that against anything.

In a way the zero rating on theatre tickets is a kind of double taxation on us, which we would love to have examined. We would like to have a low rate of VAT for the arts, such as 5% for example, and we are constantly being told that one cannot have any more levels or rates. There are a million reasons it cannot be solved. We know that. We understand it and we are just saying it is costing us an arm and a leg. To a degree, one way of instantly subsidising a large portion of the arts would be by solving this anomaly of zero rating for VAT on tickets, as we pay all the VAT on everything that we do.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Has the Arts Council made a presentation?

Mr. Alan Stanford

It has been made by all the theatre companies and by the Theatrical Management Association in its time. Theatre Forum Ireland has made proposals.

Ms Pat Moylan

To clarify, we are VAT exempt and that is why we cannot reclaim it. It is not zero-rated.

Mr. Alan Stanford

I beg your pardon. It is not zero-rated but VAT exempt.

Ms Pat Moylan

With regard to the money the county councils give to match the money the Arts Council gives to venues, a question arises regarding two venues, the Moat Theatre Company and St. Michael's Theatre.

Ms Mary Cloake

On the general issue of matched funding, no one questions the desirability of giving the very best of funding to such venues because they are the grassroots. We have talked a lot about elitism and very high standards, which are very important, but we must not forget the grassroots of the arts in Ireland are associated with those activities funded in rural areas by the local authorities. It is a question of putting a quart into a pint pot because we would absolutely give support to St. Michael's Theatre and the Moat Theatre, Naas, if we had the money. It is a question of there being too many.

Ms Pat Moylan

Community employment schemes and the arts comprise the only outstanding issue.

Ms Mary Cloake

It is a great idea. We have started thinking about it but if members have any specific proposals we would be delighted to hear them. We will be contacting FÁS to develop proposals.

On the issue of the hip-hop venue, we could talk about it later or on another occasion. Perhaps there is something we can do to help.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I have to go somewhere else. Is it the Arts Council's prerogative to define what is cultural?

Ms Mary Cloake

I do not believe so. There might be some misunderstanding there and perhaps we could clear it up.

Chairman

Could we hear Mr. Stanford's final response?

Mr. Alan Stanford

There is a tiny point I want to clarify. I was not quite certain about what Deputy Ring said. I agree that Mayo County Council has been excellent in its support and encouragement of the arts. I wish we could bring more theatre to the county but unfortunately it does not have a venue of the right size.

Deputy Michael Ring

I know that.

Mr. Alan Stanford

I want to clarify one tiny point. The Deputy referred to the tax exemption rate. I want to place on record yet again that performing artists are not exempt. The exemption applies only to creative writers. Unfortunately singers and actors like myself are not tax exempt.

Deputy Michael Ring

I know that.

Mr. Alan Stanford

I love St. Michael's Theatre in New Ross. We had a wonderful tour but I remember in particular the night in that theatre. It was one of the best nights of the tour.

Deputy Michael Ring

I invite the delegation to come to Belmullet, which has a beautiful theatre.

Mr. Alan Stanford

Definitely.

Chairman

That concludes our proceedings. On behalf of all the members, I thank the delegates for their overview and for responding to questions in a very frank way. There was considerable focus on the question of funding. I suggest that, as a result of this meeting, we write to the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Cullen, and include a copy of today's proceedings, which will be available within the next 48 hours. This will amplify very clearly the difficulties that will arise if there are further cuts. All members, irrespective of party, will certainly do their bit as individuals. The multiplier effect of an investment in the arts is unquantifiably large.

I pay tribute to the Arts Council and the executives involved for establishing a new scheme of grants for bands and festivals. I come from a corner of Ireland which has more fife and drum bands per square mile than anywhere else. They brought distinction to that area of west Donegal.

Mr. Alan Stanford

Yes.

Chairman

For very many years, they have been number one in Ireland without any funding. This is no reflection on the Arts Council but shows their commitment. They receive some funding from the Department for equipment. However, I welcome the other provision. We might not all be happy with the outcome but we also realise the demand outstrips the supply.

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a chur in iúl don toscaireacht as ucht teacht anseo, an léargas a thabhairt dúinn agus glacadh leis na ceisteanna go fonnmhar. Tugadh freagraí iontach soiléir dúinn. Is féidir leo bheith cinnte de go mbeidh doras an chomhcoiste seo oscailte dóibh i gcónaí chun teacht chun cainte linn. Tá súil agam go bhfaighfidh muid deis teacht le chéile arís go luath amach anseo. Tá súil agam freisin nach gcuirfidh an cáinfhaisnéis a bheidh againn ar 7 Aibreán isteach ró-mhór orthu.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 April 2009.