Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Jan 2010

Sustaining Community Development: Discussion with Minister of State.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy John Curran, and his officials, Mr. Joe Hamill, Secretary General; Ms Clodagh McDonnell, principal officer; Mr. Séamus Jackson, principal officer; and Mr. Seán McLoughlin, assistant principal officer. I thank the Minister of State for his attendance.

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before Christmas we met with a wide representation of the organisations in this sector. We were very impressed with what they had to say and their concerns for the future. We were especially impressed that these are for the most part voluntary people contributing to the good of society. As a result of that meeting we have invited the Minister of State so that we can discuss these concerns on their behalf. I know the Minister of State and the Government are fully committed to protecting the vulnerable in our society. Whatever can be done will be done within the current economic constraints that limit our options. I am conscious that we will have visitors in the gallery and while we welcome them they must desist from making comments.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to update it on the progress we are making on this programme. My Department was established in 2002 against a background of concern at the multiplicity of structures and agencies through which local and community development schemes and programmes were delivered. It inherited a number of local and community programmes with diverse structures, which had been operated under the aegis of several Departments. There was an inherent danger of fragmentation of services and the diffusion of resources. Indeed I am still seeing the consequences of that in communities today.

The cohesion process initiated by my Department a number of years ago to address these issues resulted in a significant reduction of local delivery structures for a range of rural and local development programmes. Until last year, there were almost 100 partnerships and Leader companies operating and the cohesion process has resulted in that being reduced to a total of 53 entities providing full coverage across the country. Notwithstanding that achievement, my Department still has a significant reform agenda to advance. The next phase — which is under way — concerns improving and joining up the output of programmes, as well as further advancing consolidation of community and local development structures.

For some time now, the Department has seen the need to redesign its community development and social inclusion programmes, particularly the local development social inclusion and community development programmes, drawing on good international practice and to provide for ongoing evaluation of the programmes. Before I address that issue, I will review briefly the history of these programmes and highlight several relevant issues, as well as comments made last year by the Committee of Public Accounts and in the McCarthy report.

The community development programme was established in 1990, by the then Department of Social Welfare, in recognition of the role of community development in tackling the causes and effects of poverty and disadvantage. It was the first nationally funded intervention in support of communities that used community development principles in seeking to challenge the underlying causes of disadvantage resulting from the effects of poverty and exclusion.

Following a Government decision in 2004, arising from a review of local and community development structures, the programme was closed to new applicants. The Department's focus moved to an emphasis on promoting links and sharing resources between existing local and community agencies to improve service delivery generally. In this way, additional expenditure could be prioritised towards services rather than administration.

It is worth referring briefly to two reviews carried out of the community development programme. The first, the Cullen report of 1994, found lack of clarity regarding elaboration of the programme's policy objectives, the problems and issues being tackled and the anticipated outcomes. Cullen's observations still have currency today in describing the lack of clear and definitive goals and objectives that characterises the programme. While several operational and resourcing changes occurred up to 2009, the goals, objectives and activity prescriptions have remained minimal relative to other similar programmes.

It had been acknowledged that no consistent way of measuring impact at project level had been built into the programme. In 1999, a second review was carried out by Nexus Research. This noted that 45 of the then 58 community development projects had received additional funds from the area-based partnerships. While the Nexus evaluation was highly complimentary overall about the community development programme, stating "the cumulative picture is one of a very high level of activity, and extremely impressive output maintenance across a range of working methods", it also pointed to the need to establish performance indicators and to develop self-monitoring and evaluation mechanisms in line with these indicators.

The local development social inclusion programme, LDSIP, promotes employment and social and economic inclusion. It works with the most disadvantaged people, such as those furthest from the labour market. The principle of community development is central to the way in which the LDSIP is implemented, harnessing the efforts of many agencies and linking people to mainstream services. While employment support remained a key element of the LDSIP, work with local community organisations and young people was to be included within the overall approach.

In 2007 Fitzpatrick and Associates was commissioned by the Department to undertake a value for money policy review of the LDSIP for the period 2000 to 2006. The review provided conclusions and observations that are very much still relevant in the current context. It concluded the following: that the strengths of the LDSIP include a local and bottom-up approach; utilisation of experience built up during previous activity; ability to provide a piece of key local infrastructure; focus on the hard to reach in disadvantaged terms; flexibility to respond to new or unconventional needs; ability to work with, and attract funding from mainstream service providers and other sources for local areas; and a cadre of experienced and committed managers and staffing.

The large diversity among the partnerships presents difficulties for monitoring and evaluation. As such, there was little hard evidence with respect to achievements at national impact level, because it has not been possible to aggregate generic data to the next level. In financial terms, it is important to appreciate that the programmes are relatively small compared to other mainstream programmes. So it is vital that the contribution of the LDSIP and the community development programme counts and is seen to count.

In 2008, the Department asked the Centre for Effective Services, CES, — an independent centre established in a partnership between the Government and Atlantic Philanthropies to promote evidence-based policy and practice in child, family and community services — to review the design of the community development programme and the LDSIP. The CES, following a review of practice internationally, found clear consensus that the structure and governance of community and local development programmes is key to their successful functioning. It also found overwhelming consensus throughout developed countries with mature community development sectors that the partnership model favours good outcomes. Another finding was that it is a well-established principle in many fields of human services that effective programme design is generally outcomes-led or results-driven. It also found that given the wide potential scope of community development activities, effective programmes generally have to restrict the number of priorities for change that they address through their programme design, focusing on a carefully selected group of feasible activities while bearing in mind local resources and other capacity issues. Key areas for future attention incorporated into the CES-designed new local and community development programme, LCDP, include structure and governance, as well as monitoring, evaluation and feedback.

Members are aware that in 2009 the Committee of Public Accounts expressed criticism of the multitude of delivery structures in the area of social inclusion programmes. It also expressed concerns regarding corporate governance relating to the operation of these agencies and groups. The Department agrees with these concerns and much of the day-to-day interaction with groups by departmental staff deals with financial and other required reporting. Evidence in the Department from managing the CDP points to some serious capacity deficits in governance and financial management, the consequences of which have been serious for the projects and individuals involved.

Many people volunteer by joining projects to devote their time and talent for the benefit of their local community. I take this opportunity to correct the recent misrepresentation in the media by some groups regarding my stance on volunteerism. I have been accused of "sacking the volunteers" through the new programme and the realignment of structures. I know at first hand the excellent contribution made to local communities by the members of voluntary boards. People give freely of their time and expertise for the benefit of their local community. This volunteering spirit, and the experience and expertise built up over many years, will be encouraged and supported through the new programme. In addition, there continues to be ring-fenced funding allocated in the new programme for volunteering-related activity.

Last year, the McCarthy report contended that there is little evidence of positive outcomes for the LDSIP and the CDP. It also stated, "the current delivery structure for these Programmes is not optimal". My Department agrees that, in general, the programmes have been lacking in demonstrable evidence of positive outcomes and that the delivery structure is not optimal. The McCarthy report continued:

significant savings for [the Department] should accrue from the merger of [these] local delivery mechanisms. Overall, the Group targets total savings of €44m attributable to a re-structuring of delivery mechanisms and a reduction in the number of funded projects.

Such a large scale of savings would cause significant disruption to the delivery of the programmes and would render them inoperable. However, in all the circumstances, maintaining the status quo was not an option.

The LDSIP and the CDP were my Department's two main social inclusion and community development programmes. Both had a community development element and have been delivered through a multiplicity of separate local delivery structures for almost 20 years. These programmes came to an end on 31 December 2009 and have been superseded by the new local and community development programme.

The aim of the new programme is to tackle poverty and social exclusion through partnership and constructive engagement between the Government and its agencies and people in disadvantaged communities. This will be underpinned by four high level goals, which are to promote awareness, knowledge and uptake of a wide range of statutory, voluntary and community services; to increase access to formal and informal educational, recreational and cultural development activities and resources; to increase people's work readiness and employment prospects; and to promote engagement with policy, practice and decision-making processes on matters affecting local communities. The new programme preserves elements of good practice from the CDP and LDSIP programmes and will enable groups to objectively demonstrate the positive impact they secure for local communities through the prioritisation of key front-line services and supports and the minimisation of overhead and ancillary costs.

In advance of proceeding to establish a single programme across CDPs and partnerships, the Department undertook an evaluation of individual community development projects. Many of these projects span two decades, with quite diverse activities. The objective of the review was to identify those projects that produce tangible, appropriate benefits for the communities they serve. The vast majority of projects fall into this category and have been offered funding under the new programme in 2010.

Where projects were not recommended for continued funding, an appropriate appeals mechanism has been provided. It is intended that the appeals process will be completed very shortly and during this period temporary funding has been provided in respect of the basic running costs of the projects under appeal, such as with grants towards salaries and appropriate overheads. In the case of projects whose appeals are unsuccessful, I will seek to make some further funding provision for a limited period to allow time for any necessary wind-up proceedings.

With regard to the misrepresentation being disseminated about the new programme through the media and elsewhere, it is a great pity that those who allowed their names to be attached to a letter published on 25 November 2009 in The Irish Times did not first ascertain the correct position before so doing. This would have been easy to do as it has repeatedly been made clear to the groups concerned and to the Dáil that there was never any intention to close the 180 community development projects referred to.

The vast majority of eligible community development projects, CDPs, have now signed up to the new programme; 30% of projects had signed up within ten days of the letter of offer issuing last December. At this stage, in excess of 95% of projects have signed up to the new programme and the first tranche of 2010 payments has issued. This allows for service continuity from day one.

A process of engagement has commenced with the CDPs and local development companies agreeing at local level how the programme is to be delivered for the rest of the year. My Department and Pobal will be providing a range of supports to ensure the process is successful. At the same time, all stakeholders will be working together to put in place a plan to ensure integrated service delivery and structures for the period after 2010. My Department and Pobal will support that process.

We expect that the number of formal delivery agents for the new programme will fall from a current high of approximately 230 structures down to just the 53 companies by year end. Our aim is to preserve and protect the volunteers on the current boards of CDPs by giving them new roles on advisory councils for the programme locally without the burden of company law requirements. This will reduce significantly the level of reporting, both to my Department and to the companies office. It will also have the useful spin-off of reduced overheads for audits, payroll and other back-office costs and will maximise the impact of available funding at the front line.

There is naturally opposition from some groups to the model for integrated service delivery and structures at local level that my Department has set out. However, as I have already stated, maintaining the status quo was never an option given the issues relating to the delivery of the old programmes, the concerns of the Committee of Public Accounts about the multitude of structures in the system, the criticisms in the McCarthy report and the current budgetary reality.

We have said repeatedly that it is open to the CDPs and the local development companies to bring forward other integration models. We have also stated repeatedly that if those models are better than ours we will accept them. So far, nobody has come forward with any such models, although there is plenty of time yet. My Department will engage positively with all stakeholders who are prepared to work constructively in that process.

I am satisfied that the new programme is a major step forward. I am also pleased to have been able, in the context of the new programme, to ring-fence funding for community development projects for 2010 and to maintain it at 2009 levels. In few other areas of public spending has it been possible to do this.

I am sure that nobody here questions my commitment to local and community development. However, it is clear that a small number of community groups question not only my commitment but my integrity in this area. A small cohort of CDPs, and mainly staff of those projects, are resistant to change and have orchestrated a campaign of protest through the media, through a campaign of letter-writing to my Department and through protest demonstrations at my constituency office and elsewhere. Such protest, if carried out lawfully, is of course legitimate but the issue of concern to me relates to the references being made to partnership companies not being part of civil society and the suggestion that it is inappropriate to integrate an element of civil society with local development companies because they are seen by some of the critics of the new programme as being State-dominated and socially exclusive in their operations.

This assertion is wholly unfounded. It is also the contention of some of these critics that the new programme in some way excludes marginalised communities from its management and ignores the loss of locally-based management. Once again this is completely inaccurate. As I have said on a number of occasions, the new programme preserves elements of best practice from both the CDP and the local development social inclusion programme, LDSIP, including stakeholder involvement in decision-making processes, and continues to focus on the most disadvantaged communities, building on their feedback in terms of what works best for their neighbourhoods.

As I have stated earlier, the vast majority of projects have now signed up to the new programme and to the integration strategy and my officials are available to meet with those who are prepared to work constructively in implementing the new programme. I remain committed to the new programme and to implementing it in the best possible way. My primary concern is, and always has been, to make every effort to ensure that the daily front line services funded through my Department are protected, especially those focused on the needs of our most socially deprived communities.

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to make an opening statement and I look forward to providing any further information members may require.

The Minister of State has given a comprehensive response. The element I take particular comfort from and which I warmly welcome is the statement that the Department is open to CDPs and local development companies bringing forward other integration models. The Minister of State said, "that if those models are better than ours we will accept them" but that so far, nobody has come forward with any such models.

We had a very comprehensive meeting last December with the various groups represented in the Visitors Gallery. There was a very strong sense at those meetings of the anxiety out there among community organisations. As the Minister of State has said, he is personally aware of the great work being done in the communities and I share that experience along with every other public representative here. We are aware of the anxieties which exist and communication is key.

The organisations must be involved and although partnership has effectively broken down at national level — I hope it can be restored in the near future — this is an obvious area that requires partnership and dialogue. The process involves a big change for many organisations doing tremendous work in areas where there are significant inequalities and injustices, and we want that constituency represented in any dialogue. An anxiety is evident.

The Minister of State's remarks have left the way open in this regard and we encourage him to enter into that dialogue in the required spirit. I make those points before opening the floor to members, who will represent their own views and those of the constituents in the organisations.

On a separate matter, we met in private before the Minister of State arrived and were working on our programme for the year. We invite the Minister of State to return to discuss head shops as soon as possible. We welcome the comments made by the Minister of State as I and the members are very concerned about the development of these head shops. We know what was done to legislate the area in the UK and we wish to invite back the Minister of State as soon as possible to see if we can move quickly with legislation on the matter. It is a separate matter.

May I comment on that?

The Minister of State may make a brief comment.

I have spoken to Deputy Ring about this. I would be more than glad to do that as there is an understanding and appreciation of the complexity of that issue. No party or individual has infinite wisdom about this and there is much to be learned by a committee like this working constructively. I appreciate the invitation.

I do not want to take away from the very important subject we are discussing today. I will now open the floor to members, and we normally start with the Fine Gael representative, Deputy Ring.

I welcome the Minister of State and I am glad he has agreed to come in again to discuss head shops because we are not going to discuss them today. The issue before us is very important. Nevertheless, I discussed head shops with the Minister of State and I am glad he will come back to discuss this important issue.

We had groups before the committee prior to Christmas to debate today's topic and I could see the commitment of those people to rural development and improving disadvantaged areas. They made the point that they were not against change. At the time they were concerned about impending change. Whenever one wants to make changes, one must bring people along by talking and explaining matters to them. I am worried, as are the community groups, that power will be taken away from those on the ground and centralised in the Department or perhaps in the Leader programmes. We will lose the experience, particularly of those who gave voluntarily of their time, as well as the commitment given. If ever there was a time at which we needed commitment, voluntary support and the help of the people, it is now, as the country is going through a difficult period.

The Minister of State quoted from the McCarthy report. While I have nothing personally against Mr. McCarthy, I have much against the report, particularly with regard to the proposals affecting rural Ireland. Mr. McCarthy was given a job to do for the Government and he did it, but if he had his way, we would have no development in rural Ireland. There would be no rural or urban development and we would not be able to look after the disadvantaged. I would be opposed to this.

The report referred to by the Minister of State was prepared by the Centre for Effective Services, an organisation based outside the country. Do those involved really understand Ireland, a complex country, as we have our own ways of doing things? The same is happening in the health service: people are coming in from Canada and trying to do things in the Canadian way. We do things the Irish way. Since the foundation of the State — even before — the Irish way has worked. People in this country have always responded to change and helped the needy. They have always done what needed to be done. I am worried that the Minister of State intends to take power away from those on the ground, particularly community development programmes, and give it to those involved in the Leader programmes which will be amalgamated.

We accept there must be change; perhaps there is duplication in some areas, but this can be ironed out. I would hate to see the Minister of State tampering with the overall programme in a way that would affect the work being done on the ground. This is all about doing the work on the ground — dealing with the people who need to be dealt with and targeting those who need to be targeted. The reason these groups are in place is the State agencies, as they stand — the health boards, the local authorities and Departments — have failed in certain communities. That is why we set up community groups and operate from the bottom up. At one time Government policy was to decentralise, but it now seems to be the direct opposite. Decentralisation meant bringing power to the people, but it now seems to be moving the other way. Power is being taken from the people and given to others not answerable to anybody. I worry about this.

The Minister of State met many community groups at Christmas time and many of them were interviewed. When will he announce his proposals in order that we can see what will actually happen? People would like to know. I am glad there is an appeals mechanism because that is important. People have a right to appeal. The Minister of State threw down a challenge and I thought it had already been taken up. Many of the groups concerned have submitted details to the Department of better ways of doing things. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I hope some of the groups which are not successful will avail of the appeals mechanism and tell the Department how they see things. The Minister of State said he would listen to the groups and consider everything. I hope he will do this. There is one thing we must not forget: knowledge on the ground. It is important to talk to people who know what is actually happening — those who have the trust of the local community and are doing a good job. I hope we will not tamper with or destroy a system that has worked very well on behalf of those who need it most — people in disadvantaged areas.

My greatest concern is the effect of the Minister of State's proposal on the spirit of voluntarism. In the last ten years, although not so much now, it has been difficult to persuade people to volunteer or get involved in their communities because everybody is busy. However, there is a core of people who are committed to voluntarism, their communities and organisation. I would hate to see this taken away. I hope the Minister of State can find a role for the people concerned. It would be unfortunate to lose them because they are few and far between. We need anybody who is prepared to do what must be done.

There is much concern. People are worried that the service available in the past will not be available in the future. They are worried that something that worked will be destroyed. I hope, therefore, that the Minister of State is not making a serious mistake. I have further questions but for now will defer to my colleagues.

There are many members offering to contribute. I will try to move as quickly as possible through the contributions. Our next speaker is Deputy Upton.

I will allow Deputy Wall to speak as he is the spokesperson on this area.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. This is an important meeting which follows on from our previous one. I compliment the Minister of State on his quick reaction to our request for a meeting early in the new session to address the major concerns raised on the last occasion. I have no doubts about the Minister of State's commitment to what he seeks to do. Some of the things done were misguided, but I do not doubt his sincerity. I am not part of any harassment at his Department or constituency office.

With regard to the case made by the Minister of State, one of my concerns is that he is highlighting the number of organisations which have signed up to participate under the new system. In doing this he is implying that only the groups which have not signed up are in opposition to what he is doing. That is an incorrect evaluation. Any group which has signed up would be failing in its duties if it did not do so. It would be failing the people for whom it has worked during the years by providing services in its own area. It is wrong to imply that everything in the garden is rosy because 95% of groups have signed up. Most of these groups are probably opposed to the format the Minister of State has put in place. The reason they have signed up is that their members are responsible people and considered they had no other option if they wished to continue to receive funding.

In many instances, the boards the Minister of State intends to dissolve are the heart and soul of their organisations and the Minister of State has proposed a Mickey Mouse mechanism to replace the current one. I can see no logic in his telling us the people involved will be advisers. I said here the last day and I have said to the Minister of State a number of times that the first thing the people concerned will say is, "I have given my all and now, as I am not wanted, I will seek greener pastures and move on." The loss will not be to the Minister of State, me or the Department but to the communities they have served for long and difficult periods.

The Minister of State has said work has already started on the partnerships. However, much suspicion has immediately developed between the two groups because the Leader groups did not ask for meetings in which they could sit down around a table and discuss the process but instead sent letters to the community groups asking what they were doing, where their funding was coming from and what their aims were. The representatives of the Leader programmes did not say they valued the work of the community groups or understood what they were doing. Immediately, something is set out that will create suspicion. If this is to work — I still have major doubts about the format — I ask the Minister not to take this way of joining the groups together. Let them sit around the table and discuss interaction but do not begin the process by sending a letter to the groups asking for details without having a format in place to ensure the barrier will be broken down. There is nothing better than two groups sitting around a table to discuss what can be done. That must be undertaken in this situation.

I welcome that once again the door is being left open. Is that a reflection of the pressure that exists or is it a sincere move? If the door is left open then one can say nobody is coming to knock on it. What process has been put in place to allow groups knock at the door? Is there a person or persons within the Department who can be approached for discussion? It is no use stating there is an alternative. People have to be given an option to develop the alternative.

The Minister of State knows my feelings regarding his participation, not only in this area but also in the area of drugs. I have full confidence in his efforts to try to get the best outcome. However, I believe he must open the door and give a mechanism to people to discuss this matter and drive it forward. He must slow down the process if necessary to allow the groups to put forward positive thinking. Nothing else will do and I do not propose anything else. I want to see a positive constructive approach that will move the process forward.

In my view, the old process still has capacity for development. I have questions about costs. The Minister of State outlined what is being saved but I do not know how it will be saved. If the new process is to be put in place and Leader groups are to take over, the extra cost of meetings and so on that will be necessary to achieve the succession will be more than the cost of the original boards of management.

There are many issues of concern. As I stated in the Dáil, I do not agree that a person from the Minister of State's Department should preside over the appeals process. I mean no reflection on such a person but none of them have a community based background. I said this was wrong and that neutral people with a community background should have that position. However, as I understand from information given to me in the Dáil by the Minister of State, that is not the case. I hope that he will think again on this issue.

I realise others wish to speak. In the overall context, there is a need to slow down the process and for the Minister of State to send people from his Department to alleviate the concerns of these groups. That is not a big request to make and would be better than sending letters that cause suspicion and doubt and underpin the worries of the various groups.

I hope the Minister will slow down the process and put the right people forward. Perhaps the ideas that will come forward will not be what we thought. Perhaps they will be a false dawn but at least let them be developed and put to bed. If the Minister of State's programme is ultimately found to be the best one it would then have the full support of everybody, including mine.

The Minister of State should slow down the process, give people opportunity, look at the appeal mechanism and do not allow the present interaction between the groups to continue. He should ensure there are round-table talks to develop the process and see what interaction can take place. He should look at the management structure.

The idea of using consultants does not impress me. I have worked with voluntary organisations all my life and have never seen any organisation using consultants within their own structures. It is a no-go area. It is a joke. Imagine the scene. In any small community there may be four people who count as consultants. We do not talk to them that often but there may be a need to bring them in occasionally. That is a joke and is no use. I ask the Minister of State to consider those points.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. He knows my position on this issue. For the past 15 to 20 years I have seen the work done by such projects on the ground in the north inner city. In many cases the original model for such projects arose in the inner city. My constituency colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, mentioned the late Tony Gregory and the role he played in this regard.

The majority of projects are effective, efficient and, in some cases, crucial to the daily well-being of their communities. I do not want to see projects that are working effectively, day-in day-out with members of the community, losing out because of what is going on at present. As some speakers pointed out, we run the risk of losing the experience that has grown up on the ground over the past 20 years. We cannot afford to lose it. We have put enormous resources into these projects. In my own area, I know the difference they have made in that period and we must retain that experience at all costs.

The Minister of State mentioned volunteers. As the Chairman noted, any change in any organisation is difficult. However, in order to achieve effective change it is necessary to ensure that those people who have put years of their experience and effort into such projects are brought along with the process.

The Minister of State mentioned the appeals and wind-up processes and the timing involved. That is crucial because if a vacuum is created that will cause huge problems, especially for those on the front line who are under stress as it is, trying to run their projects. If there is a vacuum that makes it ten times harder. I welcome the offer of inviting suggestions because there is such an amount of experience. These people are worth listening to. I hope and expect that the appeals process will be put in place as quickly and efficiently as possible and that any decisions made will ensure that the services currently provided, which are crucial to these communities, will continue to be provided as effectively and efficiently as possible.

We have a list of speakers and I will try to ensure that everyone who wants to speak can do so. We are getting to the nub of the debate now. It is about change which we all know to be necessary but we want it done a certain way. That is what members are putting to the Minister of State.

Go raibh math agat agus cuirim fáilte roimh an t-Aire Stáit.

I shall begin with the negative. The Minister of State cited the McCarthy report. From my perspective, as a director and secretary of a community association, that report revealed a clear lack of understanding and appreciation of community life in Ireland, whether urban or rural. The McCarthy report has done a great disservice to volunteers and those who work to build community. That is what we are concerned about.

I am disappointed the Government has decided that the community and the people are becoming part of a bookkeeping exercise. The Minister of State mentioned a figure of €44 million in savings. It is my understanding that no money will be saved from the proposed amalgamations. Like Deputy Ring, I am seriously concerned that we are taking the whole concept of local ownership, participation and participative democracy away from people on the ground and bringing it back under State control through the Department, an amalgamation of groups or whatever.

Let us be clear. For a long time the State and Governments, no matter who was in power, failed to build a bridge and work with the most marginalised and those who need protection the most. If one looks at Ireland today, prior to the decision taken by the Department, we have child care, back to education schemes, preschools, health care and — I do not mean to be sexist — more and more women involved in organisations who know better. Who knows better than the woman in the community? Ballyphehane and Mahon have two wonderful CDPs. Like Deputy Wall, I wonder why the Minister of State gave us the figure for those who sign up. Does the Department want to divide and conquer? The Minister of State and those in the Visitors Gallery know that if they did not sign up, they were gone. They were responsible people who put the heart of the community ahead of their vested interests.

I heard the Minister of State's remarks about his offices. Deputies Ring and Kenny referred to the Shell to Sea situation in County Mayo. I do not believe in intimidation, but I believe in the right of people to protest and to voice legitimate concerns. I am concerned that we seem to have to taken the whole concept of partnership away. I have been involved with residents and community associations, which is linked to social inclusion and community development programmes — we seem to have taken that away. Is the Minister of State open to the idea of a service level agreement between local partnerships and CDPs? We need to examine the issue. Deputy Ring referred to the recession. One of the most important pillars in the concept of social partnership is the community pillar. The people concerned are rooted and involved in their communities.

I am not sure if the Minister of State read Le Chéile for winter 2009, which contains a series of articles dealing with the Minister of State’s proposal. I have time for the Minister of State on a personal level because I believe he is sincere and genuine. CDPs and community groups have e-mailed us with proposals and different issues pertaining to this, and are open to negotiation and dialogue. Part of the problem is that the Government is using the McCarthy report as a juggernaut to drive through everybody. If it wants to deliver bad news and amalgamations, it uses the McCarthy report as a conduit to attack people.

I would love to hear the Minister of State say he would sit down with the groups, in a meaningful way, away from everybody else, and have a good debate so he can put in place an amalgamated partnership programme where there will be consultation with the stakeholders. I hate the term "stakeholders" because we are discussing people who want to build communities. Ballyphehane and Mahon have had major changes. Fatima Mansions and Rialto, to which Deputy Byrne referred, have undergone great change which was brought about by people coming together. We need to re-evaluate this issue. There are still concerns which have not been addressed. Some of the Minister of State's remarks today are inflammatory to the groups, even though he may not think that is the case. I question the process of engagement and the Government's sincerity in wanting to create partnership and allow communities to have self-governance rather than self-help. If we want to talk about money, let us do so. Our side of the House is not afraid of change. We have our own proposals regarding change in community development, but the Government should not use the McCarthy report as the benchmark from which to start because if that is the case, we might as well put up the white flag and surrender completely.

Go raibh maith agat. Fáiltím roimh an Aire, an Ard-Rúnaí agus oifigigh na Roinne.

The Minister of State's initial comment set the tone for the discussion we are now having, which was important. The comprehensive overview which the Minister of State provided has been very helpful. We have to examine the various arguments and logic involved and, above all else, ensure the best results are achieved at the end of the process. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is the foremost Department in the country for pragmatism, keeping an ear to the ground and working with the people for whom it has a particular brief. That background must be put in place. Many of the successes we have had at community level can be attributed to the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, the Department and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley. Senator Buttimer was very generous when he made a point regarding the sincerity of the Minister of State. That is something which we should put on the record before we try to analyse the matter currently before us.

I was very taken by Deputy Wall's contribution because I felt he was speaking from the heart. In previous debates we had on the community involving the Arts Council or whatever, I always found he seemed to have his ear to the ground and his finger on the pulse, which is important. If we are discussing the radical changes we need to get feedback. We saw that at the last meeting of the committee, when we discussed straitéis 20 bliain don Ghaeilge. Seven bodies appeared before the committee and we will all agree that we were exceptionally well briefed. I brought in the documentation that day, which had risen to almost a foot high. A certain number of minutes were provided to each speaker. I have no doubt when the reports from that meeting and the outreach meeting we will have in the Gaeltacht are released, I am certain the draft straitéis na Gaeilge will be exceptionally well-informed from the bottom up.

In the case of straitéis na Gaeilge two things can happen. First, it can become a reality and fails, which would be very sad. Second, it can succeed, and we must then realise it will be in place for 20 years which, in many ways, is a lifetime. If we have not brought all the players into the process before we put our name to it at the end, we will have diluted the potential which was there.

On the debate we are having today, one of Deputy Ring's sentences struck me, namely, that there is an Irish way of doing things, something with which I have to agree. We have to go abroad and examine models and examples, which we do all the time. After that, it is essential to remember what is the Irish way of doing things. I say that in the context of the planning code which, generally, is flawed in this country because there has been too much input from people who have been trained as planners. I am not objecting to such people being involved in the process — there are a large number of them currently in the country, who have come from New Zealand and other countries, and they are exceptionally good on a professional level — but I am convinced they do not always plug into the ethos of what is required in this country. That is a flaw in the planning code. Clinically, theoretically and globally their proposals sound correct but when one is dealing with each planning issue, one will find things which the planning code has not taken into account. What does that result in? People who want to return from abroad and help to regenerate rural Ireland cannot build houses on their own land. We might learn from outside but we must also look at the Irish way of doing things.

What is the Irish way of doing things in the context of community effort? Local GAA clubs raised money, bought fields and developed them so that every club in the country had its own pitch. They then built clubhouses on a voluntary basis. The people who do meals on wheels, going round to people's houses, are helping people not in a charitable sense but a community sense. Again, this is a voluntary effort. Each time someone has suffered in the community, we see the kind way people respond to help them by raising funds. I could go on forever. In my town, Cashel, there are 37 voluntary organisations operating. If they were taken away, the community would be impoverished.

There is are many conciliatory elements in the Minister of State's speech. They are stronger than we realised before we came to this meeting and it would be worthwhile to focus on those. It is evident that if one is talking about another model that it could be reinterpreted as dialogue. I do not agree that protests or letters in the newspapers are the right way to go, all those do is muddy the waters. There is always a degree of misrepresentation in cases of that nature. Trying to unravel that misrepresentation subsequently becomes an obstacle to resolution. Whatever happened should be left in the past and we should look at the situation today.

If the Minister of State examined the idea of dialogue with those who have a different view, he could interpret the idea of another model as a dialogue. It is not always easy for a group rooted in the community that does not have all the personnel and expertise at its disposal to put down in a cogent form a model for something far beyond what it is expected to do. The group, however, has the knowledge, experience and sincerity. The Minister of State should find time to engage in dialogue with such groups.

The Minister of State made it clear the status quo is not an option and he is right. It would be wrong for the committee, however strongly we might feel, and knowing the wonderful people working at community level, not to recognise that times are changing. There should not be any suggestion that we cannot do things better, that we cannot get greater value for money. If the status quo is not an option, we must be certain the other option is not the complete dissolution of the community structure and the funding available.

Perhaps at another session we could engage with the Minister of State and his officials on those points, to reinterpret the idea of a model as dialogue, to accept that the status quo is not an option and to see how we can integrate those who have played a role in the past to ensure there will not be any misunderstanding in the community in future. The Minister of State is the person to lead this and I would rather deal with this Department on this issue than with some others.

We have done a lot of consultative work on the 20 year strategy for the Irish language. As a new Chairman of the committee, I have found that useful and interesting. We had all the organisations before us in December and we are following up on the straight talking that took place on that day. We represent the views of those people and we want to bring about change. We know it must happen but it must be done in the right way.

I thank the Minister of State for coming in to make this presentation. No one opposes reform; that has been agreed. There is equally a compelling case for cutting down on expenditure. The process must, however, be fair and be seen to be fair. There are issues around that point that I want to raise. There were four different reviews or reports, Cullen, Nexus, Fitzpatrick and McCarthy but the McCarthy report is the one where action was taken. This was a graduated process but nothing happened until Mr. McCarthy came along with his chainsaw and decided to slice off a huge chunk of money, making drastic recommendations for this project. That suggests this is McCarthy-driven rather than anything else.

There are five community development projects in my constituency that are being abolished. By any standard, that is disproportionate. I do not want to get into the details of each one but I hold them all in high regard for the vital work they have done and continue to do.

One point was made in various comments made to me and I would like to hear the Minister of State's views on it. It has been put to me that no project was given any information about the review or knew the criteria against which it was being assessed. That puts everyone on the back foot when they are trying to appeal against the process. It puts them in an unenviable position and I would like to hear what the Minister of State has to say about that.

Where projects were found to have the potential for duplication, the Department arbitrarily decided which project should be closed. What comments does the Minister of State have to make on that? Is that what happened? I have one of the reviews here and it contained a curious comment to the effect that there is a "likelihood" of partnership work being duplicated by the CDP and vice versa. A likelihood is not a good criterion but that is the comment made. For an issue as important as the abolition of a CDP, there must be substantial and detailed reasons. If I was involved in the CDP, I would be jumping up and down to find out the exact reasons and if this is the best that can be done in terms of detail. There are one or two other points in that respect but the likelihood that something will happen is not good enough. We need more specifics in that regard.

What is the Minister of State's plan regarding the volunteers? He said he will examine volunteer related activity. The volunteers and everybody who has spoken were in agreement on this issue. The volunteers have been very important and I hope they will continue to be but I am not sure what "volunteer related activity" means. It is important that is bedded down, so to speak, and that we know the status of it and its importance.

A number of other comments were made to me which are important. On the nature of the appeals process and so on, I received an email which states that the situation as it stands is that projects that are non-viable received money to cover wages, etc. for January while their appeal was being heard. That money runs out this Friday. I received this e-mail just before lunchtime today. Officially, all projects will close this Friday until they are told by the Department that their appeal has been successful. There has been no information from the Department regarding redundancy payments, payments to staff, holiday entitlements or how outstanding bills are to be paid. This e-mail further states that it is disgraceful that workers and voluntary management committees have been left in this situation with two days to go, not knowing what their fate is. It also asks whether the project will still exist on Monday morning. We need clarity and reassurance in regard to those particular projects.

I welcome the fact that the Minister of State might be willing to engage in further dialogue. This is a very important issue for the people who are in a paid capacity, those in a volunteer capacity and those who are the recipients of the good work of the community development projects. I ask the Minister of State to engage again with them in further substantial dialogue.

I reiterate what Deputy Upton said regarding the appeals process and the need for an announcement as to when the decision will be made in respect of those groups who have submitted an appeal to allow them make whatever arrangements are required and, should the decision be delayed beyond tomorrow, that they can at least have an understanding that the funding will continue beyond the weekend. That is the very least they deserve, given the shortness of the appeals process, that they were not provided with all the facts as to why they were being closed, and that this decision was made in the week before Christmas. I am aware the Minister of State extended it by a few days because of the weather conditions but most appeals processes would allow a longer timeframe and give groups greater space in which to put their case together.

With regard to the McCarthy report in general, the problem is that Colm McCarthy reflected what Government wanted. It was a reflection of what the Departments had planned or had wished it could achieve. The way the report was presented highlighted that but it also showed the cost of all the measures. Colm McCarthy understood the cost of everything; that is his expertise. The problem, and this is reflected in the report, is that he did not see the value of anything.

I listened to Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú who is correct about many points but the key problem with the recent decisions of the Government is that the value of much of the work that has gone on for years and the future potential of these CDPs is being ignored. I accept there might have been a duplication in some cases which needed to be addressed but that could have been addressed in recent years. CDPs could have been told they cannot continue to exist unless they deal with the duplication. There is much more work they could have taken on but they could not because they were dealing with issues. That did not happen, however, and other Deputies have welcomed the Minister of State's comment that he is open for dialogue, but that dialogue should have happened before the decision was taken.

The duplication, if there was any, was minor but the problem now is that the decision has been taken. It depends on the appeals process but most of the groups I met who have engaged with the appeals process are not confident, despite having put a great deal of time and effort into it. I hope they will be successful in their appeals but if the decision is that they must close, the service they delivered will have to be delivered by somebody. That was acknowledged by the Minister of State and the Department. In most of the cases the nearby services and partnerships boards do not have the inkling in some cases and do not have the resources or funding to take on the services.

I will be parochial in mentioning a project in Ballyfermot, the Ballyfermot Travellers action project. There is no other Traveller action project in Dublin 8, Dublin 10 or Dublin 12 and, to my knowledge, no other project in the area has the inkling to deal with the issues and the peculiar circumstances with which that project dealt. There is no other CDP and no partnership in the Dublin 12 area to take on board the work in which the Crumlin CDP, for instance, was involved. I could list many any other projects that lobbied me and I do not expect the Minister of State to answer in terms of individual cases because these are under appeal.

Expertise has been built up in these projects. Colm McCarthy's report was about economics. The Government has invested in these projects and most of these CDPs were just starting to deliver on the projects, the basis of which they spent two, three or ten years laying down. The fruits of that work will disappear overnight. One tends to get a return on an investment but the return on this investment will disappear.

I have a question regarding the figures. The Minister of State referred to a letter in an edition of The Irish Times which I did not read and therefore do not know what it contained. I do not know the reason he is so defensive about it. He stated in his contribution that “there was never any intention to close the 180 community development projects referred to”. He also said “We expect that the number of formal delivery agents for the new programme will fall from the current high of approximately 230 [which is made up of] 180 CDPs and 53 partnerships-integrated companies [to drop to] ... 53 ... by year end.” That means that 180 delivery mechanisms will disappear overnight. There might be some type of duplication in terms of administration which can be saved on but that suggests 180 delivery mechanisms, structures or agents will disappear. That is the reason people were concerned because there was no clarity other than from the CDPs who got a letter stating they would have to shut up shop by 31 December. That is the only clarity in this regard.

I appeal to the Minister of State, even at this late stage, to suspend the appeals process and get into proper dialogue to ensure those CDPs that are delivering projects and have been assessed as being efficient and effective for many years are saved but also, over the next year, to ensure the amalgamation process proceeds, the duplication is weeded out and the administration aspect is dealt with. A great deal of bureaucracy, which is not part of what the CDPs want to be involved in, is landed on them and they have no choice but to engage with it. I ask the Minister of State to suspend the appeals process and involve himself in the dialogue that was suggested by others.

While I welcome the ring-fencing of money for CDPs in 2010 at the same level as 2009, I take grave exception to the inclusion in the Minister of State's report of Mr. McCarthy's comment: "There is little evidence of positive outcomes for these initiatives". There are definite positive outcomes in communities in which theses initiatives are based. Like Deputy Upton, I am conscious of the disproportionate number of projects in Dublin and, like Deputy Brady, concerned about the losses in Dublin Central. In particular, two community development projects in the constituency are led by individuals who became involved in community development work in the 1970s when the term was not even heard of. They were to the forefront of community development work under the direction of the late Tony Gregory. There are dreadful implications for the community with the loss of these projects.

I had assumed those who dealt with appeals would have a qualification in community development and be in a professional position to judge. It is important that an announcement be made as soon as possible on the appeals procedure because CDPs are in limbo. Administrators of some of the projects deemed non-viable were not aware of the criteria by which they were evaluated. They were deemed not to provide frontline services when that was not provided for in their contracts. They were working as catalysts to empower local groups to provide their own frontline services. In the awful event of the appeals not succeeding, the Department should take on the responsibility of at least making the statutory redundancy payments to which workers are entitled.

We have witnessed the implications of senior staff leaving the education system and the Garda. We do not want senior staff with vast experience moving out of the area of community development and not being given an opportunity to continue the dialogue for which other Deputies are calling.

It is important that the Minister of State is present and he is welcome. I have no doubt that he and his predecessor, Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, have the community at heart. I know them for some time and their feelings about community-based organisations are sincere and honest but this time something has gone wrong and it must be fixed immediately.

Reference has been made to the achievement of value for money. The Government, not community workers, has not brought the country to its knees. Every community is paying for the lack of governance. That is why the Government is picking holes in CDPs and telling those running them that they can only do X and Y and that they can only deal with people within a certain area. We are being asked to cut in half the number of CDPs.

I want a better service in my community which is open to everybody but I also want it to be properly regulated. One size does not fit all. The Minister of State cannot box every community and decide this is the way to go. This is not Dunnes Stores or Penneys. We are talking about people who have worked in communities, who have volunteered, who depend on these projects for their livelihood and, above all, who are living in communities. Without many of these organisations working on the ground, there would be no such thing as a social agenda. CDPs are about giving people the opportunity to mix and work in a community and provide services that are needed, particularly in communities I represent in the south-west inner city such as St. Teresa's Gardens, School Street flats, Fatima Mansions and so on. These communities are being told to bunch together, hold hands and that everything will be all right. That is not the way to go because each community is different and has different needs.

There is a fairness about what the Minister of State is trying to do but the way he is doing it is wrong. He must go back to the communities affected. He is a good man to turn up at meetings about drugs, many of which I have attended. He is also a man who listens. He needs to go back and listen again to the cries of people in these communities. If the issue is the achievement of value for money, we will be in trouble for the next two years if we do not identify with people on the ground and work with them. The only way to do this is to listen. We have lost the skill of listening and need to regain it.

Everybody has identified different places in their communities. The RAPID and Vista programmes are in place in St. Teresa's Gardens and School Street flats. The inner city has three projects which are being asked to amalgamate and work with a wider group but they cannot do so because they have different problems and issues to deal with and different agendas. One cannot give everybody one pill and hope that will solve all the problems because it will not. Times are hard. I would like the Minister of State to reconsider the position of many of these projects. As previous speakers said, next Friday is their deadline and not only will they not exist after that, the community in which they work will not exist because they provide the link that makes people value where they live. Will the Minister of State re-examine his proposals and sit down with the people concerned, many of whom have worked in the community for years? As Deputy O'Sullivan said, there was no such thing as community development when they started. We need to go back and listen to them. I urge the Minister of State to reconsider this programme. He should stop what he is doing and perhaps something can be saved in the process. He should not tell us that after Friday half of the projects will be gone. That will be a huge indictment of all the people who serve in these projects and, particularly, the volunteers in the communities affected.

I thank everybody for his or her contribution which is base on his or her personal experiences. I will sum up my views and those of the committee before the Minister of State responds.

Everybody recognises the position in which we find ourselves and that change is necessary in various organisations. It is part of life and essential that we continue to renew ourselves and the organisations in which we are involved, including the political system. I am privileged to be Chairman of the committee and involved in this process. I take my position seriously. I heard an interesting interview with Ms Kathleen O'Toole, chief inspector in the Garda Inspectorate, on "Morning Ireland" about change within the Garda Síochána. Some of her comments were shocking but, at the same time, it is great that she was able to identify the change issues which will be addressed. She referred to the lack of e-mail facilities in some Garda stations, the need to examine rosters and the number of young gardaí with tremendous enthusiasm and expertise whose resources should be utilised. It is refreshing to have such debates about organisations. Resources are available to be utilised and those doing tremendous work need to be brought to the fore. Change can be challenging but it can also be fulfilling for everybody involved.

As public representatives, we are particularly aware of the excellent work being done on ground by CDPs and the value of this work to individuals. The key aspect in this regard is that these organisations engage with individuals at a time when they are vulnerable and isolated. In times of recession they need attention. The committee was engaged by these organisations and we listened to them. We made commitments to them that we would convey their views to the Minister and Department, which we did. We did this to seek real engagement. I will not rehash the decisions made in detail, but the process seemed to be only one way and was based on the McCarthy approach, which has been called a chainsaw approach. This was a mistake because any process of change must be a two-way process and must have respect for the views of both sides. It must be a real and honest process. This is a major challenge for the Minister of State, but I know he will meet it. If we are going to do it, we must do it right. As Chairman of this committee, I believe we must make some changes to the process because the proposed changes have left people anxious and detached. We need these people on board. It is not too late to do that because the Minister of State has set out a deadline for getting this done. It is important we get it right.

I represent an all-party approach. I thank the Minister of State for listening carefully to us put forward what we believe is a reasonable position. Will he inform us whether we could do better with regard to the consultation process with stakeholders who genuinely feel they have been left somewhat detached? We could yet design a workable solution, based on the Minister of State's experience of what is happening on the ground and our experience. Hopefully, we can in that sense achieve something from this meeting that will improve the process. We all know it is not going to be easy, but we can achieve the right result in the interest of the people we all want to serve. I thank the Minister of State for being with us. As an all-party committee, we have a mandate from the people we represent to voice their concerns and improve the process. I urge the Minister of State to respond as positively as he can to our concerns.

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for their contributions. A number of issues have been raised and I will try to respond to all of them. Some members mentioned specific community development projects by name, but I do not have details on those and can only make general comments on them. The Chairman acknowledged that there is fear and anxiety whenever change is introduced. I acknowledge implementing change is difficult, but we are in a situation where reform is necessary. The particular economic situation means the reform must be carried out in a timely fashion. That said, it is not being done in a day, but over the course of a year. It is a process. Therefore, there is still an opportunity for people to engage and deal on some of the issues that have been raised over that period, as I highlighted.

I mentioned the McCarthy report when explaining the process in my presentation. If I believed the recommendations of the McCarthy report were all valid, I would have done nothing and the cuts would have gone ahead. It is because I believe in the importance of the community development programmes that I have fought to do something. The budgetary situation reflected that. A question was raised about funding. We have less funding this year. Last year, the funding for this subhead was €74 million. This year, it is down to €67 million. Therefore, there has been a cut. However, if we accepted the McCarthy recommendation and his cut was imposed, we would be in a completely different position. I reiterate, I did not accept the McCarthy recommendation. That is the reason I embarked on a project to address the concerns, but I had to address them in real time. I emphasise, we are embarked on a process rather than an endgame. In many ways, we are at the beginning of the process today, and it should not be seen as the end. There is significant work to be done in this period.

I am conscious that my opening statement was quite long, but I made specific points in it which I know the interested groups will note. I will not repeat these, but I will refer to some relevant issues. Deputy Ring mentioned that the Centre for Effective Services was an international practice and its methods might not suit Ireland. That is correct, but I also pointed out that we are not just following its recommendations. We built this programme around preserving the best practice of our two existing programmes in conjunction with the international experience. We have maintained elements of best practice from our own programmes.

The question of appeals and the implementation date has been raised by several members. I understand from the officials involved in the appeals process, none of whom are here, that every group has had its oral hearing and that the result of those appeals will be known before the end of the month, effectively Friday, and that they are still on course to provide them then. Some questions have been asked about the competence of the individuals involved in examining the appeals. They were from a different section of the Department, but they were people with vast experience of dealing with community and rural development. They are the heads of corporate governance and internal audit and have considerable experience. Members wanted to know whether groups would know the outcome by Friday and I am told they will.

Another issue concerned those who are unsuccessful. In most cases, the members of the voluntary boards are, effectively, directors who have statutory responsibilities. I intend to ensure we assist voluntary board members with statutory responsibilities to discharge those responsibilities. I mentioned this in my opening statement as it is an important issue. I meant it to be understood that this assistance was from the financial point of view. Deputy Wall asked why I mentioned the number who had signed up. I did that as a matter of record. I knew what I said would be noted and knew that people wanted to know how many were in or out. The number I gave was the most up-to-date number. I acknowledged in my opening statement that not everybody agreed with the new process and that there was a level of resistance to it. However, a substantial number of CDPs supported it and went out of their way to contact us directly in support of the principles. Therefore, there is not a unanimous view on the best way forward. A substantial number support it. It is interesting that when there was no deadline, a substantial number convened meetings and signed up quickly.

They support it because there is no other option. They come from the poorest base. They had to protect their communities and the only way they could do that was to sign up. The Minister of State should not use that ——

I am making the point that numerous CDPs made representations directly to the Department. I agree they had issues and queries, but they were willing and prepared at an early stage to sign up. I made this point when referring to winding up of projects.

I would like to elaborate a little on one of the key paragraphs in my opening statement because it refers to an issue about which people keep asking. I said it is open to CDPs and local development companies to bring forward other integration models. I am sincere about this. However, this does not mean it is one-size-fits-all. In other words, I am open to local dialogue and to local solutions emerging in different areas with regard to the relationship between CDPs and partnerships in the local area. I am not prescribing arrangements and am not prepared to enter into dialogue on a national basis. However, I am prepared to enter dialogue regionally and locally and to support local arrangements. It is not one-size-fits-all. What I refer to is the offer of discussions between local CDPs and their local development company to come up with a workable solution.

Can I intervene on that? Can the Minister of State give us a timescale on that offer?

We have just got over the first tranche of who is in for funding, but it is open to others, up to the end of April, to come back with workable proposals. Proposals are individual. For example, a proposal for my area in Clondalkin might be substantially different from one from Deputy Ó Snodaigh's area. In other words, an integrated CDP programme with the partnership in my area might be far different from what works somewhere else. That is what I mean about different areas and local debate.

I hope people understand that this is a genuine attempt to try and bring everybody together in different ways. People talk about the voluntary boards and I acknowledge the work of the voluntary boards. It is my intention that in the new programme they will have significant roles to play in different ways. I have set out one example but it does not have to be restricted to that. I have talked about having advisory councils to the work of a particular project but there are other ways. For example, I note a number of the more recently established CDPs are not limited companies but are hosted by partnership companies and they have boards. This is a model that is available to be examined and which is working well.

I refer to areas such as Rathnew, Gurranabraher and Edenderry and a few others along those lines. Volunteers are in position and working as advisers or as boards but the CDP itself is not restricted and tied down with all the red tape associated with company law. This is the key point made by everyone today; I agree we should have that level of debate but in each given area. We have not been overly prescriptive in how this is addressed. As part of the process, officials in my Department and in Pobal are available. While the officials might not be well known to members of the committee, they are well known to the CDPs. This process will take place over the next few months.

I refer to the general evaluation and criteria for the review in the first instance. The general areas were along the lines of the fit with the objectives of the programme, the relevance and the need for the project within the area, value for money and governance. People going into the appeals process were aware of the weaknesses. The idea was that CDPs who had been unsuccessful were shown the weaknesses so that they could address them in the appeal and they had the opportunity then to address them at the oral hearing.

If I may interrupt the Minister of State — in the case of a CDP that loses its appeal on Friday and has reached the end of the line, how will it then as a unit engage with the Department or the officials?

I understand our officials will get in touch with the CDP directly after the appeal in order to assist——

They will have been disbanded.

They will not be disbanded in the sense that a CDP is still a legal company and the directors will still have responsibilities and my office will have to deal with them in that regard. The directors do not just vanish after Friday.

However, they will have no role and no income, no project, no funding. I am genuinely curious as to how it will operate.

They will have no CDP funding but regarding the issues arising about directors' responsibilities, our office will work with them to discharge their responsibilities. In other words, rather than they having to contact us, contact will by made by the office to assist them discharge their responsibilities.

That is only to close them down.

They will be gone.

All those areas will be left without funding and all the people involved in getting the community actively involved will just be ignored by the Minister of State and nothing will happen. It is an absolute disgrace.

I do not know the outcome of the appeal so the Deputy is pre-empting what that might be.

Is the Minister of State saying that all the appeals will be upheld?

No, I am not saying that and I would doubt that. Deputy Ó Snodaigh knows that is not what I mean.

For the ones that do not, we genuinely do not understand what ——

I also make the point that the office has experience with CDPs and a number of CDPs have closed in any given year for a variety of reasons. The office has the expertise to support them in that fashion and the same will happen in these cases, whatever the outcome might be and this will become clearer after the weekend, I understand.

One of the comments made was that there will be no CDP funding. Does this infer there may be other funding? The key point is that the committee will need to come back to this issue at some stage and ask for clarity. We need to engage further with the Minister of State after the weekend, in some shape or form.

The key point made by many members is important and should be emphasised. I said specifically that it is open to the CDPs and the local development companies to come back. This is not on a national basis but rather for their own particular area and this process takes up to April. We have embarked on a new programme which is important and reform is also important. The budgets are somewhat smaller this year than last year. It is important to have programmes with clear objectives and measurable outcomes, where their is a minimum of administration costs, compliance with company law, auditing and the red tape to which the Chairman referred. By doing all this, we can maximise the front line services and this is the challenge and the piece of work that is in place. In the next few months there will be engagement between CDPs and local development companies, area by area, to work out their particular relationships rather than those being prescribed at a national level by my office.

I thank the people in the Visitors' Gallery who have been observing the meeting. Under the strict rules of the House this is very much a committee of Oireachtas Members and people are welcome to come before the committee at any time.

I thank the Minister of State for attending the meeting and listening to members but I get a sense from the members, whom I am trying to represent as fairly as I can, that we need to keep the engagement. We urge the Minister of State to engage with all the people who need to be engaged with because it is our job to represent their views. We will keep open the communication with the Minister of State.

I have some correspondence from the Jobstown community development project and I did not have the opportunity to mention it to the Minister of State but I will convey the points to the Minister of State in his office. We have all received correspondence from all sorts of people so there is significant interest, concern and anxiety with regard to this issue. It is a process of change. The committee asks the Minister of State to keep up his intense involvement and engagement with the people and with the committee. I want to keep open the lines of communication to get this process right. The Minister of State has come to listen to us and the committee will keep in touch with him.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.18 p.m. and adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 12.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 2 February 2010.
Barr
Roinn