JOINT COMMITTEE ON ARTS, SPORT, TOURISM, COMMUNITY, RURAL AND GAELTACHT AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 2010

Alleviation of Poverty, Social Exclusion and Inequality: Discussion with Voices that Matter

Chairman

I extend a warm welcome to Ms Elva O'Callaghan, national co-ordinator, National Collective of Community-Based Women's Networks, Ms Rosie Bissett, the Dyslexia Association of Ireland, Ms Ann Irwin, the Community Workers Co-operative, Mr. Jonathon Linklater, the Irish Stammering Association, and Ms Cliona Saidlear, Rape Crisis Network Ireland.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the House nor an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members of the committee have absolute privilege but I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Despite our current recessionary problems, Ireland is a relatively wealthy nation where most of the people live in relative comfort. Despite the fact that many individuals and families are experiencing extreme difficulties at present, difficulties which should not be underestimated, we have the economic bases and social structure to overcome these problems and to return to the prosperity which we have experienced in recent decades. As somebody who had the privilege of serving as Minister of State with responsibility for labour and in other ministries in the past, and who has worked with many people from organisations such as those with us today, I am very much aware of the work they do in society.

Apart from the overall general well-being, in every society and often especially in the most wealthy, there exist marginalised groups who, even in good times, remain outside the normal dispensation and never appear to receive their fair share of the social cake. This has certainly been, and remains, the case in Ireland as well as across Europe and in the United States. That is the reason it is so important to have groups such as those present before the committee to speak to us. They are here today to speak on behalf of the disadvantaged and marginalised and I offer them a very special welcome for that reason. I understand Ms Ann Irwin will speak first.

Ms Ann Irwin

I work for the Community Workers Co-operative but I am here to speak on behalf of a network of organisations which we have named Voices that Matter. We are here to talk about and on behalf of the few that have been left out of the economic prosperity described by the Chairman and who are marginalised for a diversity of reasons. We are delighted to have the chance to address the Oireachtas joint committee. In the past our member organisations have found this committee to be very supportive so we thank it for the opportunity to address it today.

I do not intend to go through the submission we sent the committee a few days ago but I will give a flavour of the type of society we live in, the sections of that society we represent, the organisations we work with and what we do, and the importance of that. We accept the point that Ireland has enjoyed unprecedented growth and economic prosperity over the last few years, although that has changed significantly recently. However, a large proportion of the Irish population remains in poverty and lives with inequality and social exclusion of various types. Despite the unprecedented economic growth, 4.2% of the population live in consistent poverty and 14.4% are at risk of poverty. According to the ESRI, Ireland is seen to compare unfavourably not only with its prosperous neighbours in the EU but also with a number of new member states. Comparatively, Ireland is not doing very well.

It is important to highlight that particular categories of people remain at higher than average risk of poverty. These include children, with an at risk of poverty rate of 18% and a consistent poverty rate of 6.3%. People in households headed by a lone parent are at particular risk of poverty as well as those who are unemployed. It should also be highlighted that people in employment are a growing proportion of people living in poverty. A significant problem of in work poverty is developing. Women, who make up 50% of the population, have a slightly higher risk of poverty and a slightly higher proportion of women than men are in poverty. I accept that the Gini coefficient is not immediately understandable to everybody but it is a good measure of how equal a society is. In Ireland our Gini coefficient is just above the EU average. That might sound okay but it is not because it is a comparison with many of the developing countries in Europe. In Sweden, for example, the Gini coefficient is 23% while ours is 31%, so we could do better in that regard.

Forms of social exclusion other than those directly related to income are more difficult to measure and, for that reason, it is probably important to highlight them. According to the National Women's Council of Ireland, representation is highly unequal in Ireland. Only 13% of our Deputies are women. With regard to Travellers, over 70% of Travellers are unemployed compared with 7% or 8% of the overall population. That is at least seven times the number in the general population. There is no member of the Traveller community in the Oireachtas. Ireland is now a country of diversity with one in ten people living here describing themselves as non-Irish but our representative democracy does not reflect that.

From the perspective of the organisations we represent, there is irrefutable evidence that equal societies do better than unequal societies not only for those who are affected by disadvantage and marginalisation but for the society in general. Why are we here today? Any serious concern on the part of the Government to tackle poverty and inequality requires support for national organisations because of what those organisations bring to the table. In outlining some of the critical factors in addressing the challenges of poverty, social exclusion and inequality I will discuss the role of the organisations that comprise Voices that Matter. The first issue is policy. We see that as a two-way conduit in terms of policy development and policy implementation. The work the organisations do is essentially about translating experiences. The task of these organisations, many of which have networks at local level that work with people who are experiencing poverty, inequality and social exclusion, is to articulate those issues and devise ways of addressing them. The unique role of the national organisations is to represent and present those issues to policy-makers at different times. We believe that leads to richer policy development because it is informed by the participation of people affected by the issue and also because it is evidence based.

In terms of implementation of policy, the national organisations often find themselves in the role of broker where they broker the implementation of policy between Government and State agencies and people on the ground. It is a very important bridging mechanism. Many of the organisations are members of important implementation bodies at national level, such as, for example, my representation on the RAPID national monitoring committee. Other organisations are represented on the national women's strategy implementation body, the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, and so forth. We are there because it is acknowledged that we can bring the experience of people on the ground to those policy making fora.

With regard to building consensus for policy change, sometimes policy change is not immediately seen as positive and national organisations play the role of translating what can be seen as threatening policy change into more understandable language, therefore making it easier to implement. One of the crucial things we do warrants repeating — we ensure the participation of those who are actually experiencing poverty, social exclusion and inequality and, in doing so, strengthen the democratic process. We are talking about people who are furthest from the democratic and political process. Using a variety of approaches and methods, including community development, the organisations ensure that the voice of those who are experiencing these problems is brought to the table.

Most of our policy documents are now based on the Developmental Welfare State by the NESC. Developmental Welfare State looks at the need for innovative measures. It acknowledges there are gaps in terms of policy development and implementation and states there is a role of innovation. We would certainly say national networks and those we represent have a very good track record in regard to national innovation and in having some of that mainstreamed.

In terms of value for money, it has long been acknowledged that the community and voluntary sector does things very well and for very little and we argue that we provide a very good and diverse range of services for very little.

In terms of effective and efficient communication, what we bring to the table is networks and channels that can be used for a variety of things. They have been used in partnerships with different agencies and Departments over the years. At this stage, the national organisations have a range and depth of expertise that is acknowledge not only at national level, but at international level as well.

The main reason we are here and Voices that Matter got together in the first place is that we are all supported by a scheme now administered by the Department Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs. It is called the scheme to support the national organisations in the community and voluntary sector. It was first envisaged as part of the White Paper on a framework to support voluntary activity and to develop the relationship between the State and the community sector. It has been in operation for almost three years and had a three-year cycle. We are coming to the end of that cycle. The overall scheme funds 64 organisations and had a budget of €80 million over the three years, although there was a 10% in reduction in that last year.

There is now an opportunity to refocus the scheme, which provides core funding, to reflect the new priorities of the new Department, including social exclusion, inequality and anti-poverty measures. Sometimes we focus too much on funding; it is about what the funding enables. What the funding enables is an infrastructural capacity to address all the issues mentioned. It is used by many of the organisations to enable the voices of those experiencing poverty, social exclusion and inequality. That is the motivation of all the organisations Voices that Matter represents.

We ask the committee to bring all its influence to bear to ensure the scheme continues and is refocused to reflect the new priorities of the Department, to emphasise the importance of the linkages to those on the ground and to ensure the participation of people who experience poverty, social exclusion and inequality.

Some suggestions as to how to improve it include a statement of recognition of the importance of community and voluntary organisations to a vibrant civil society and a strong democracy, specifically those engaged in anti-poverty, social exclusion and equality work, and a statement that the scheme or similar would be used to provide core funding to enable the work of these organisations. Again, it should not be all about the funding but about what the funding enables and facilitates. In this case, it is about bringing the voices of those experiencing the issues to the table.

A refocusing of the scheme to better reflect the new priorities of the Department on organisations that specifically work in the areas of anti-poverty, social exclusion and inequality and on organisations that have a proven track record in this area would be very welcome. The multi-annual nature of funding should be improved to five years to allow more long-term planning to address the issues which are quite embedded and entrenched and, therefore, need a particular strategic approach.

Without doubt, Irish society faces the biggest challenge it has ever faced and I am sure members are far more familiar with phrases like that than we are. Having a voice at national level which seeks to represent, empower and respond to the needs of groups and communities experiencing poverty, social exclusion and inequality is needed now more than ever. Voices that Matter requests the committee to use all its influence and power to ensure the challenges posed by poverty, social exclusion and inequality are placed and remain at the top of the political agenda and that the role of national organisations working to address poverty, social exclusion and inequality is sustained through an appropriate funding mechanism.

Chairman

I thank Ms Irwin. I am the new Chairman of this committee and I look forward to the work ahead. The presence of Voices that Matter today is very timely because as Ms Irwin rightly said, there has been a shifting of responsibilities between Departments and this committee now has responsibility for equality. The new Minister of State, Deputy Mary White, is a former member of this committee. We are awaiting direction.

What Ms Irwin said and what her colleagues will say will have an input into this new focus. It would be appropriate for this committee to invite the new Minister of State in as soon as possible. We will do so on a formal basis following this discussion. I am open as to how we deal with this meeting. Perhaps one or two other members of the delegation would like to speak before we have comments.

Ms Cliona Saidlear

Ms Irwin has covered much of the ground, so I will not reiterate what has already been said very effectively. I wish to re-emphasise the piece about policy work. We are in touch with the constituency in the community which is largely silent and is sometimes non-participative. Policymakers and Government access to them is limited. We bring their voice in a coherent way to national fora.

Members meet people every day in their constituencies, know organisations in their constituencies and interact and deal with these issues. However, this is about bringing this to national fora and responding in a coherent way which is best practice and evidence based. Bringing that to policymakers is a core part of the work of the national networks in Voices that Matter.

Largely through this funding stream, we lay the foundations for what will be the implementation of those policies. Once good sound policies are made, their implementation in a comprehensive way can happen nationally, facilitated by many of the national networks which are in direct contact with those hard to reach communities.

Ms Elva O’Callaghan

I wish to make clear who we are and what we do. We would really like the committee to understand the way we work and members should feel free to ask us questions about that.

The Chairman referred to the infrastructure in place to address social exclusion, poverty and inequality. We are very much part of that infrastructure and much of the work we do focuses on building participation among excluded groups which experience inequality in terms of policy-making and enabling them to have a voice. Many of our local networks do that at grassroots level and they have a way to reach people who are very hard to reach.

A level of trust is built up at community level with organisations, as are processes of empowerment. For example, we bring very disadvantaged women onto management committees of local organisations. Those local organisations then become part of our management structure. Those who experience on a daily basis the kind of social inequality, social exclusion and poverty about which we are talking have a direct voice. This is a crucial role which cannot be replicated.

The other side is that it has a collective focus and our member organisations respond to collective issues raised by our groups and then work to develop collective responses. In return, the national organisations support them to do that work and we try to feed out policy developments, as Ms Irwin stated. It is all about building a collective response. We see that as a really important part of the infrastructure in existence.

Chairman

We will break there, if the members agree, and ask for comments. On this topic, alleviating poverty, social exclusion and inequality, we have heard from Ms Irwin of the Community Workers' Co-operative, Ms O'Callaghan who is the national co-ordinator of the National Collective of Community-Based Women's Networks and Ms Saidlear of the Rape Crisis Network. We have yet to hear from two of the organisations, those represented here by Ms Bissett and Mr. Linklater. Perhaps, to get a better interaction here, Deputy Ring from Fine Gael might be the first to contribute.

Deputy Michael Ring

How many individuals or families does the organisation reach out to? In the past year has it found an increase in contacts from people, particularly those in poverty?

The recent introduction of the carbon tax will certainly have a major effect on rural life. Will the delegates comment on effects of that on people with whom they deal? While it is up to the Government, what proposals or suggestions have they made to it on how to deal with that because people are feeling the crunch?

Rural transport is a big issue in the context of isolation, particularly for women who do not drive and people who cannot afford cars or where there is only one car in a household. Are delegates worried about the new structure the Minister proposes to put in place? We do not know yet what funding he will make available for this year or next year. There are rumours that there are many changes taking place within the Department that may have a major effect on many of the groups. I see all of the groups as a unit. There will be major changes. The Government talks about reducing funding, and maybe support for the role of some of these groups. That would not be helpful.

Chairman

I will ask two or three more members to express their views and opinions.

Deputy Jack Wall

I welcome the delegation to the committee. Today's agenda is certainly one of the most important to come before the committee because of the percentage of people who are unfortunately falling into the net of poverty, social exclusion and inequality. In reading the presentation from Ms Irwin — I thank her for all the effort and dedication she has given to my e-mails and so on — I note that she has been more than helpful on everything that I have asked her to inform me of.

It is one thing to speak of percentages, quite another to speak of numbers. When one speaks of alleviating poverty, there is nothing as critical as giving numbers rather than percentages. Percentages seem to go over people's heads but if one speaks of a certain number of thousands who are in these positions, it will have far greater effect in ensuring that the case is being made. That is what we must do here, and one can like it or lump it.

One of the problems is that in modern Ireland the people of whom we speak are not seen as the voting public. They are those unfortunates who are fighting every day to survive and the thoughts of a political input or angle to try to improve their position is the last thing on their minds. That is one of my concerns, that they are forgotten for a reason. They are forgotten because they are not involved. In many instances, the single parent will not be registered to vote. The person will not have any link, will not know where to go in life to try to improve his or her situation. They know of only two places where they will find the local housing officer and the community welfare officer. They live their lives between one and the other, and the post office upon the first Tuesday of every month. Unfortunately, that is one of our problems at present. We must see how we can educate those people and bring them to the point where they develop their minds and expand on their abilities to try to get out of that rut that they are slowly but surely being pulled into.

I cannot get over the way the net is being tightened around these people. The rent subsidy is decreasing. The social welfare payments are decreasing. These are the people who are the worst off in our society and we do not seem to fight for them. I cannot believe what is happening here. The landlords are not moving. The Ministers and others state that rents are coming down; they are not coming down for those to whom I speak. They are paying under the counter to landlords to try to survive and keep a roof over their heads. We must expand upon that.

One can provide percentages here but I want to see numbers. I want to see actual people. I want to see the lives they are living put up in lights so that we can fight the battle for those who are represented here. Everyone at this committee will be aware of this. There are calls to their offices every single day about this, but because of the circumstances, we do not seem to value those people. Like any of us, they are citizens of Ireland and they deserve to get more help. We must give that help.

I am delighted the Chairman stated that he will invite the Ministers before the committee. I hope we will get further documentation to support what we are talking about here, but in which we will see the numbers of people concerned and their geographical spread, where they suffer most, who suffers most, and the numbers of children.

The percentages on children are frightening. In areas where I serve there is a breakfast club to provide breakfast for the kids because they are not getting their breakfast at home. The facilities are not there. The money is not there. The money lenders are now moving in like hawks because of the new circumstances in which many of these people find themselves.

We must fight the battle to try to get that information into the arena. We must ensure that we give these organisations every possible help and every stand and facility to make their case because that is what it will be all about. In the present circumstances where we hear that the green shoots are coming, the people of whom we speak are not aware of it. They are aware of the opposite due to the problems they face in trying to provide for their loved ones and for themselves. When we talk about rents and about all of this, there is no satisfaction in that for those suffering most.

These groups have provided a wonderful service over the years and no doubt will continue to fight. I hope they will keep us informed. Today's presentation of their overall position is in the hope that we will fight to ensure that the funding for the new programme will be put in place, so that at least there is continuity of effort, time and dedication. Without such continuity, it will all go down the chute. If this does not happen, the efforts our guests have made will have been for naught because we will be obliged to climb another mountain in respect of the problems communities will face in the future.

Speakers referred to equality, integration and many other matters. In recent days I attended a meeting at which the issue of children with disabilities was discussed. The room where it was held was jammed with parents. I was appalled that so many of those present did not know to whom they should turn to improve their children's chances of obtaining access to education, speech therapy services, occupational therapy services or whatever. It was amazing to see a room filled with people from all walks of life, rich and poor, who did not know what they should do.

That is the scale of the challenge our guests face. The Labour Party will support them in everything they are trying to do. We will try to ensure that the funding will be provided so that they can continue to focus on their work. I hope the relevant literature and details will be forthcoming, that percentages will be thrown out the window, that the actual number of families involved will be outlined and that the necessary information relating to the geographical spread, and so on, will be provided so that the fight can continue.

If we proceed on a national basis and if the information to which I refer is provided to Deputies in Wexford, Cork, Kildare or wherever, the latter will be in a position to know, for example, that 6,000 children in their regions are under threat. The overall picture will change immediately if we proceed in this way. I wish our guests well. They have our support and we will do everything in our power to assist them.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Wall who, as always, articulated his and the committee's strong commitment in respect of this matter. Our guests stated that they have always found this committee supportive. As its Chairman, I assure them that as we face into a new situation, particularly in the context of dealing with a new Department and a new Minister, they will continue to enjoy our support. It is my responsibility to conduct the affairs of the committee in an all-party and inclusive way. We try our best to be non-partisan. Whereas our guests may not represent a group with as high a profile as some of those which have previously come before us — particularly those which operate in the sporting or artistic arenas — I share Deputy Wall's view that this is the most important meeting the committee has held since I became Chairman.

We have some serious work to do. As Deputy Wall stated, the idea of obtaining as much evidence as possible is extremely important. Let us try to work on that basis in the months ahead.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I thank our guests for attending. The Chairman outlined the position in a succinct manner. Many high-profile delegations came before us at our last couple of meetings to discuss sporting matters. However, the matter we are discussing today is fundamental in the context of our society and its people and the type of Ireland we wish to develop. Fine Gael has always been in favour of creating sustainable communities.

I compliment our guests on their presentations and on the comments they made. Deputy Wall is correct, members require figures to assist them in their work. I have been involved with community associations in the constituency in which I live and, as a teacher, I taught leaving certificate applied subjects. I have, therefore, witnessed what the Government is doing in respect of the leaving certificate applied syllabus, the amalgamation of the community development programmes and the removal of local autonomy and power. In that context, I am obliged to wonder about the route we are taking.

I note Ms Irwin's comments to the effect that people believe themselves to be at the furthest remove from the democratic and political processes. While I accept that from where she is coming, I must point out that the ballot box is the most important lever to which people have access. Encouraging people to vote is an issue but we must also consider the issue of empowerment. The Mahon Community Association in Cork city, through the efforts of Denis Coffey and his team, has developed a wonderful, welcoming, innovative community centre. In that context, I also highlight the work done by the community associations in Togher and Ballyphehane. What these organisations do is empower people, particularly women — I do not intend this in any patronising way — to feel strongly that they have a role to play in building communities. At community level, it is women who are the main drivers of development and change. They are the lobbyists and activists and it is they who believe that it is possible to empower people.

I am somewhat concerned that we have taken a route whereby the language being used is becoming more difficult and that we are becoming bogged down in discussing various reports. Our guests referred to the NESF, of which I was a member before it was disbanded. The Government also abandoned the Combat Poverty Agency, which was a retrograde step. I accept that there may be too many quangos and that the position may need to be addressed. However, the Combat Poverty Agency was the one quango through which we could fight for change.

Our guests referred to the pilot projects and innovations that have influenced Government policy on community care, child care and the early childhood initiatives. Will they indicate whether they are of the view that the new amalgamated community development programme, CDP, will work? Has the issue of quality affordable child care been dealt with in a comprehensive manner and will the efforts that have been made in this regard prove successful?

Deputies Wall and Ring referred to social welfare. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Ó Cuív, recently hoisted a flag in respect of the possibility of social welfare cuts in the budget. He then conveniently stated that he could not comment further because he was bound by collective Cabinet responsibility. The Chairman previously served at Cabinet level. I have never done so but I could be at the Cabinet table as soon as next week.

Chairman

I accept that this is a difficult time for all Fine Gael Members.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Is it prudent for the Minister for Social Protection to refer to reductions in social welfare when it is clear that the number of people on long-term unemployment and the numbers of those who are emigrating are increasing? Lived experience in this country highlights the fact that there has been a major polarisation within our society. The Celtic tiger bypassed a particular group of people, namely, those who could be termed working class or lower class, who did not benefit during the good times and its demise led to the middle class being pummelled. In the context of the growing divide to which I refer, how can we encourage the Government to reverse its policy, change course and take on board what our guests have said with regard to empowering people and putting in place community support schemes, and so on?

I reiterate what I said regarding the importance of our guests and the people they represent. There are now three tiers within Irish society, which is frightening. I hate to admit it but Ms Irwin is correct to state that the Government, State agencies and public bodies have made people feel unwelcome and have encouraged them to believe that their views are not being listened to. As Deputy Wall stated, the people to whom I refer do not know to whom they should turn for support. Community welfare offices are inundated and State services cannot cope. The voluntary sector is doing its best. There is an obligation on Government to provide leadership but it has not being doing so.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I welcome our guests and thank them for their presentations. I commend them on the work they do. I am familiar with the work of Rape Crisis Network Ireland, in particular, and also that of the other groups.

There are three points I wish to make and I would be interested in hearing our guests' comments on them. The first of my points revolves around to the cutbacks relating to community development projects. All of us are hearing from many people across Dublin and the country about the impact cutbacks and closure of community development projects will have on the most disadvantaged communities. They will reverse some of the work done. While I accept Senator Buttimer's comment that many people were left behind by the Celtic tiger, the poverty reduction programmes in place during that era are being rolled back in one fell swoop. This will undermine the benefits they delivered, which is sad and depressing. Does the delegation wish to comment on the position of those for whom its constituent organisations provide front line services?

I am glad Ms Irwin mentioned women's participation in politics. As the Labour Party spokesperson on equality in the Seanad, I have been active on this issue and I am also a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights which, until recently, had responsibility for equality and law reform. The former function will, I understand, be transferred to this committee. Last year, the joint committee produced a report on women's participation in politics on which it made a series of recommendations. I am pleased to note the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Alexandra White, is progressing these recommendations and has invited in all the political parties to identify how they can be implemented. The joint committee will try to ensure that more work is done in this regard because Ireland has slipped in this area.

As Ms Irwin noted, the percentage figure does not tell the full story. While 13% of Deputies are women, which is an extremely low proportion, the position is even worse than it first appears because Ireland has slipped from 37th place in the world in 1990 to 85th place now. Other countries, especially in Europe, moved up the placings during that period. We need to take a proactive approach to increasing women's participation in politics. As Ms Irwin stated, the lack of representation of women has a knock on effect for representative democracy generally.

I raise a matter brought to my attention last Friday when I launched a document for the Southside Travellers Action Group. The Minister for Social Protection proposes to make changes to social welfare payments which will have a significant, adverse impact on Traveller women who have returned to education and are engaged in projects such as the Southside Travellers Action Group. In many cases, these women left education at a young age, got married and reared children before returning to education. Many of them are still very young. The Minister's changes will make it harder for dependent spouses to engage in education. The delegation may well be aware of his proposals. It was brought to my attention that this proposal will have a particularly adverse affect on Traveller women because they get married at such a young age. This proposal will effectively deprive many women who have considerable potential to return to the workforce of an opportunity to enter the workforce or education. As Deputy Wall and others stated, cutbacks and changes in social welfare have many unforeseen consequences which we need to highlight.

Chairman

Deputy Upton will now contribute, after which I will ask the delegation to respond to the questions and points raised thus far. Deputy Ring and Senator Bacik asked some specific questions, while Deputy Wall and Senator Wall made some detailed points on policy.

Deputy Mary Upton

I welcome the delegation from the National Collective of Community-Based Women's Networks and thank it for its presentation. More importantly, I acknowledge the important work done by the collective and its individual organisations. The reason the system, despite its many gaps, is good is that it owes much to the work of organisations such as those represented here. They are genuinely in touch with people who require support.

It is shocking that Ireland compares unfavourably not only with our prosperous neighbours but a number of new member states. One would have expected in an economy that was relatively well funded until relatively recently, that poverty statistics here would not be comparable with those of the new member states. It is shocking that this is the case.

While we may not wish to discuss percentages and statistics all the time, it is important to note the figure showing that a significant 6.7% of those in work are at risk of poverty. We tend to regard those who are not in employment as the most vulnerable, whereas a group of those who are in employment and who, on the surface, appear to be managing are also vulnerable. While the figure in this regard has improved, it is still a substantial number of people.

On public decision making, the delegation highlighted that women and Travellers are still significantly under-represented. We are all conscious that this is the case but many other groups are also under-represented. It is important to remember that they, too, are entitled to their share of representation. Perhaps Travellers and women were selected as an example, which is fine.

I agree with the point made on statistics as they often do not communicate what is happening. Individual cases or even what occurs at community level will tell one much more than national figures or statistics. Individuals and families are not numbers. The information the delegation provided is drawn from first-hand experience and reflects the real lives of real people. It is important to have case studies as they inform us about what it is like to experience the horrific circumstances described.

I could not agree more with the point that co-ordinating policy across different Departments is complex and difficult. One would need to have a PhD in co-ordination much of the time to——

Senator Ivana Bacik

Just to learn the names of Departments.

Deputy Mary Upton

Yes, and to find out what services and facilities the various Departments provide. There is simultaneously a problem of gaps and overlap. It is difficult for everyone to get their heads around this. The citizens information centres have done great work in the area of co-ordination and they provide an excellent source of information. Many of those who need this information are not aware of the work the centres do or the information they provide. We have Departments with responsibility for education, social protection, justice, equality and so forth, all of which have bits of information and legislation distributed across them. This is often a difficult issue to grasp.

As was stated, there are many different categories of people. Those who frequently need to know about a specific change in policy are often distanced or removed from mainstream communication. They include people with poor literacy skills, non-English speakers and so forth. Will the delegation elaborate on how its constituent groups establish a connection with these groups? This is a major challenge. Those who are well informed, literate and able to dig out information for themselves have a good chance. It is those who are on the margins and do no know who to contact or visit to obtain information who often need someone to contact them. I ask the delegation to comment on this issue.

Funding is another important issue that was raised. Improvements are required with regard to the multiannual nature of funding. I know how difficult it is to plan if multiannual funding is not in place. One must try to operate from one year to the next and one cannot try to plan. In this type of work, it is important to know what services and facilities one can provide. It is difficult to do this without multiannual funding. This issue must be examined.

The information gap on people's rights and lack of co-ordination in services must also be addressed. Separated men are a group of people who are increasingly coming to my attention in my advice clinics. Many of these men find themselves extremely isolated and vulnerable. There is an issue of pride and embarrassment but unfortunately an increasing number of such men who visit my advice clinics no longer have any income and have effectively become homeless. The system appears somehow designed to grind them down. In terms of supports, social welfare and so on they are often fighting an uphill battle to try to cope. Many of them are supposed to pay maintenance but find it impossible to do so. These men belong to a group that has been sidelined. Someone needs to delve into this issue to identify what systems can be put in place for them. As matters stand, men in this position are often required to sell a family home. It seems while they have any money at all, they have very few entitlements and if they are renting, a fear factor sets in. They wonder what will happen to them as they cannot buy another place, they will not be able to pay the rent and they are fearful of becoming homeless. This is an important aspect that needs to be dealt with. While some parts of the welfare system are quite good, we have highlighted the difficulties associated with it and the system is also very convoluted. It is often quite difficult to understand people's rights and entitlements. They are the people who need to be reached out to and informed, advised and supported in getting their rights. Any of we politicians who run advice clinics will know the difficulties encountered by people. Literacy is still a big problem. Associated with literacy is the pride factor because people will not admit they are unable to read and write or that they can only write very poorly. They simply do not know their entitlements and they do not know who to ask. There is no point in writing to them because they are unable to read the information. We need to open up channels of information for that category of people who are most vulnerable and most at risk. I thank the delegation for the presentation and particularly for the work they continue to do.

Chairman

Before I ask the delegation to respond I will make one or two comments. I agree that successive governments have changed the combinations within the various Departments. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform was not always called by that name. There is now a Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The delegation's visit is very timely. In my view, it might have been better if responsibility for equality had been taken away from the aegis of justice. One could argue for a combination of labour affairs and equality. There can be arguments made for many combinations. The delegation's area of equality and community is an excellent combination and I suggest we make the best of it now with regard to the fact we have a new Minister. Perhaps a new Government will change the configuration, who knows.

I invite the delegates to give their views on how Departments should be structured as their views are important. I invite the delegation to respond to the questions from members and perhaps in the order in which they were put. Deputy Ring was the first to ask questions.

Ms Ann Irwin

With the indulgence of the committee, I will address some of the questions and then ask some of my colleagues to address those questions I might have overlooked.

I refer to Deputy Ring's comments about rural life. There are particular challenges in the wide spectrum of poverty, social exclusion and inequality and, within that spectrum, rural life presents a number of challenges. The issue of rural isolation can be expanded to examine the issue of isolation which women experience in rural and urban areas. The isolation of men in rural areas is a particular challenge for organisations in County Leitrim, for example. With regard to the issue of transport, the Community Workers' Co-operative, the Community Platform and the European Anti-Poverty Network have just finished doing a series of regional seminars with the social inclusion division which, I understand, is now part of this Department. We went around the country and approximately 400 people attended various seminars and the importance of rural transport was one of the key issues raised, with reference to it facilitating access to a wide range of social activities that those of us with cars or who live and work in more urban areas take for granted. We would be concerned if there were to be any withdrawal of funding and support for rural transport.

The issue of the cuts is very broad. I note the recent articles in The Sunday Business Post by Pat Leahy based on conversations he has held with the Department of Finance. This is an issue of great concern. There is talk of cuts but also removing many of the current community supports. As usual, coming up to the time of the budget, this is a bit of kite flying. I appeal to the Department of Finance to make the link between the types of work carried out by the community sector and the types of things about which we are all concerned in society, such as social cohesion, when the Department is looking at the community sector.

I take the Deputy's point about percentages and I apologise for that. Sometimes statistics are very good in giving a picture of trends but I agree one loses the nuances and the picture behind the statistics. A very quick calculation would suggest about 750,000 people live in consistent poverty. We need to look at what this means in reality. Consistent poverty is actually quite a harsh measure of poverty, such as when people cannot afford two pairs of shoes or cannot afford to have a Sunday roast or equivalent once a week. I met a woman recently who told me, with no hint of exaggeration, that she has porridge for dinner three times a week. This is the picture behind the statistics. In the context of the figures for Travellers completing education, Travellers talk about reconciling the experience their children still have in parts of the education system and the fact that even though they come out of the system with good qualifications, they still will not get the jobs because more than 70% of Travellers are unemployed. Such pictures are very important.

The situation for women is very important. Women, for a variety of reasons, do not regard a range of options as being for them. I take the point about statistics and I accept the relevance and importance of the pictures behind the statistics.

On the question of whether I think there will be an increase, I think there will be one. For all their faults, the statistics we are working with are 2008 figures because they are released a year later. I, like most of the organisations involved in Voices That Matter, would anticipate a significant rise in those figures, the poverty figures and in other categories. People in work have experienced pay cuts and there is a concern for those who are newly unemployed. Of more concern to us, however, are the long-term unemployed becoming more entrenched because all the focus is on getting newly unemployed people back to work and is taken away from people who are most distant from the labour market. It is a very difficult and, in some ways, all the issues compound the other issues. We need to look at issues in an holistic way and the figures and trends need to be examined.

I am on record as saying I do not think the policy direction in the community development programme is the correct one. One question I would ask, and it has been asked in those regional seminars, is that if it is accepted by this committee and by others that participation is crucial in addressing issues of poverty, social exclusion and equality, how can that be facilitated and enabled without a structure at grassroots level? That is what the community development programme did. I do not think the newly amalgamated programme will work because it takes away that crucial point of participation. We have been calling on the Department to look at that policy direction and to rethink it. We are aware there are a number of alternatives on the Minister's desk for assessment and we hope he would look at those alternatives favourably and also look at the time schedule. The deadline for alternatives is 30 June 2010, which is also the deadline for a plan for integration. If there was a little more time for people to assess whether one of the alternatives would work for them, this would be very valuable at this juncture.

On the question of social welfare cuts, according to OPEN, the INOU and other organisations, some of the statements have been the cause of unnecessary concern for many people. Cuts in social welfare and changes to social welfare will impact on those who are parenting alone, for example, and those on jobseeker's benefit. We need to look very carefully at the total situation. If one wants to use a carrot and stick analogy, we do not have the carrot part of it, which is the education and training places and facilities, but we are none the less considering the stick part, which is the sanctions. That is an issue of concern to us and we advise that the Government needs to ensure the facilities are in place to enable people to move towards work. We know a great number of people would be very pleased if the barriers were removed for them, to enable them to move towards training and work, before the stick approach was considered. In terms of the EU comparison, it is also an issue of concern for us. We are not doing as well as we should be or could be doing. We are worried, as Deputy Upton said, about those in work and the growing number of people experiencing poverty who are in work. A large number of people are on the margins and just about surviving, about which we would be very concerned.

Deputy Ring raised the issue of the carbon tax. It is of particular interest to me as we are currently doing work on climate change. We are considering it from two angles. One is that we do not think policy makers are adequately aware of or take into account the issues that are represented by the community sector. The second is that we do not think the community sector is adequately engaging with climate change. We saw what the real affects of climate change will be last year in Cork and parts of Galway. We need to consider the potential of the community sector in terms of building responses to and resilience around these types of episodes which will happen more and more often.

On specific taxes such as the carbon tax, it has now been proven that the taxes which are trying to encourage more favourable behaviours have the least impact on those with the most ability to pay and impact most on those with the least ability to pay. Middle class people absorb them and use the products anyway. They will absorb the rises in petrol, heating and water charges when and if they are introduced. Poorer people have to reduce consumption and are already those who consume the least. It is an issue. The effects of anything such as the carbon tax have to be mitigated for those in rural areas or those who are least able to afford them while at the same time starting to encourage good behaviour.

Chairman

I invite Ms Bissett and Mr. Linklater to discuss their areas of activity.

Ms Rosie Bissett

The Dyslexia Association of Ireland is focused on education and disability. We straddle the two. It causes a lot of difficulties and confusion for parents regarding problems to which Deputy Wall referred, that is, having rooms of parents coming to talks who do not know where to go, what to do, to what their child is entitled, how they can access help, how they can get a diagnosis or if they are entitled to a diagnosis. For example, they may be unable to get a diagnosis because the public list is too long and want to know if there is any possibility of getting a diagnosis outside the public system. Organisations such as ourselves and others in the group do a lot of work at a local level. As we have specialist knowledge, we are trying to take the relevant parts from all of the different departments and pull them together for a parent who has a child who is struggling to read. We determine what is relevant for him or her in terms of social welfare entitlements, education and third level support which are available or anything else.

Pools of specialist knowledge come together. We have a network of 33 branches nationwide from Letterkenny to Wexford, Cork, Dublin and everywhere else. The local branches are very important in terms of empowering people at local level. Our association started from zero and now has 33 branches. The number has fluctuated over the years. We are currently at a stage where it is only because of the support that we can give the local branches that they are able to continue to survive, particularly in the current climate. Over the past year we have seen a significant increase in the number of families who need financial assistance for assessment and getting extra tuition outside school because, unfortunately, a lot of children with dyslexia are not getting adequate help in school.

The point made by Deputy Upton on the working poor is particularly evident in the past year. Anecdotally, there has been a big increase in the number of parents who are now on three day weeks. A problem which has arisen in the past month or two concerns people who are self-employed whose businesses have gone to the wall and who are in an abominable situation regarding social welfare. They receive nothing, yet their options are being closed off left, right and centre. I refer in particular to many adults with dyslexia who, when times were good, were fortunate enough to be in a job and were doing okay. However, when they lose their job or are on a three day week, barriers are put up to their ability to re-engage with education.

If they have not been assessed, there is no public assessment service for adults. The back to education allowances are being cut and are becoming much more difficult to apply for. The level of funding for specialist supports in third level and further education is being cut. Barriers are being created all over the place for people. In terms of literacy difficulties, to which I refer because of the nature of the groups we work with, they are incredibly difficult to engage with. All the organisations are trying to raise awareness through our networks and linking to other organisations. We give information to community information centres and Departments, hold talks in local areas and travel around the country.

The carbon tax will have an impact on the ability of national organisations to travel and support the full geographical spread of the groups which we will have to bear. The issue of information is difficult but all one can do is keep at it at local as well as at national level, which need to work together and feed into policy at Government level.

Chairman

There was communal nodding when Ms Bissett referred to the self-employed, those who are losing their jobs and the difficulties in getting back to training and education. As politicians, we have all experienced that.

Mr. Jonathon Linklater

For the Irish Stammering Association being a voice that matters is interesting because obviously people who stammer have a difficulty in speaking and getting a voice. We encourage those who come to us to have a voice, speak and say what they want to say. Stammering is often a misunderstood condition. A person knows what he or she wants to say but struggles to say it. We operate groups around the country for adults who stammer. We operate children's drama groups and parent support networks which generally try to empower people to say what they want to say and make a contribution to society.

Deputy Wall asked about figures. There are approximately 45,000 people in Ireland who stammer, which is half the capacity of Croke Park, but others, such as families, are connected to them. The situation is similar for the Voices that Matter. It is not only the person who is affected by the condition but also others. We have been in place for some 15 years but it is only since we have received funding over the past few years that we have been able to develop our services significantly. We encourage our members to get more involved in the local groups which enables them to get more involved in their local communities and develop in that way.

Chairman

We have had a very good response. This is a very important forum for us. The contributions are on the public record. The delegates have made many points relevant to various Ministers. We will have an opportunity to raise these issues over the next few months with different Ministers. I want to reiterate what was said by many colleagues, namely, that we would like to continue engaging with the various groups. They have a very good network and communications system. I ask the organisations to keep in touch with the members of this committee and the wider group of Deputies and Senators. This committee is anxious to work closely with them in these difficult times. Individually and collectively, the groups have articulated the big challenges that exist at present. As I said in my opening remarks, sadly there are always marginalised sectors of society. As politicians, we always work to deal with such problems. People were marginalised in the so-called better times, but now they face even more challenges. The organisations have delivered many worrying messages to the committee today. We need to address such matters and we will do so as a committee. If Ms Irwin would like to sum up, I would be happy to hear what she has to say.

Ms Ann Irwin

I will summarise briefly. We know without a shadow of a doubt that more equal societies are better societies for everyone who lives in them. Therefore, we know it does not work for society as a whole if people are living with marginalisation and disadvantage. We appeal to this committee, all Departments and the Oireachtas in general to imagine a type of society in which equality is a central point. They should examine the role of civil society organisations, specifically those that work with people who experience marginalisation, inequality and poverty, so that such organisations can influence policy and we can all work in partnership towards a better society.

Chairman

I thank Ms Irwin. That is all we need in summary. I thank the representatives of Voices that Matter for attending today's meeting. We look forward to further collaboration with them.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 June 2010.