Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Assisted Dying díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 2023

Protecting Vulnerable People: Discussion

Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurances in respect of participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts. Members should be mindful of this when contributing. This committee discusses dying, including suicide. Support information can be found on the committee's web page.

The item on our agenda today is engagement on the topic of protecting vulnerable people. We warmly welcome Dr. Aideen Hartney, director of the National Disability Authority, Professor Desmond O’Neill, chair of the Irish Society of Physicians in Geriatric Medicine, Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh, playwright and disability advocate, and Mr. Don Wycherly, who is here assisting.

We are grateful to the witnesses for attending. The format of the meeting is that members ask questions after the witnesses have given their opening statements. A member can ask an individual witness a question or address a question to all of the witnesses more generally. I ask witnesses to keep their opening statements to the agreed five minutes and there are clocks on the wall to help when they start.

I invite Dr. Aideen Hartney to make her opening statement.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

The National Disability Authority, NDA, thanks the Chair and members of the Joint Committee on Assisted Dying for the opportunity to present on this topic today.

The NDA provides independent and evidence-informed advice to Government on policy and practice relevant to the lives of disabled people. We also incorporate a centre for excellence in universal design, promoting the design of digital and built environments, services, and systems so as to be readily accessed, used and understood by people regardless of age, size, ability or disability.

The work of this committee relates to a complex and sensitive topic. The NDA proposes to input on those areas directly within our competency. We also advise the importance of this committee engaging directly with groups with the potential to be affected by this matter. While the NDA provides independent advice to Government on disability, it is not a representative body. There are a number of disabled persons organisations, DPOs, that may have valuable and potentially differing perspectives to bring to the attention of the committee, as there may not be consensus among disabled people and organisations on this matter.

The NDA understands that the committee has heard from a wide variety of witnesses, including those from other jurisdictions in which assisted dying has been introduced. During these discussions, members have heard about some of the reasons for an individual wishing to avail of assisted dying. In Oregon, for example, data from 2022 indicated that the three most frequently reported end-of-life concerns were decreasing ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable, loss of autonomy and loss of dignity. The committee has also heard about the importance of safeguards in this area an,d in particular, guarding against coercion or pressure that might lead someone to consider assisted dying as a preferred option. We would advise the importance of considering how the barriers and challenges in place in our society that prevent people with disabilities from living independent and included lives in the community could contribute to a perceived sense of coercion by impacting a person’s dignity, autonomy or enjoyment of life.

Some of the supports relevant to enabling disabled people to live autonomously within their communities include access to adequate personal assistance services or home care supports. Research has shown that the provision of these supports is inconsistent across healthcare regions and that in many cases people do not receive enough support to enjoy good quality of life. Our separate research on well-being and social inclusion shows the extent to which disabled people are at higher risk of depression and lower well-being than their non-disabled counterparts, often because they do not have access to the same social and leisure activities due to barriers within society. The NDA advises the importance of adequately resourcing our health and social care system so that an absence of the necessary supports does not become a reason for disabled people to feel that they cannot enjoy a good quality of life.

We also note the importance of people being able to live within their own homes and communities as they age. Accessible or universally designed housing stock is a critical enabler in this regard. The NDA has produced research that shows that residential services and supports within the community lead to better quality of life outcomes for people with disabilities than institutional settings, and so advise that any consideration of assisted dying is not progressed at the expense of work to ensure disabled people can be supported to age in place in their communities. We also advise that further consideration be given to how disability supports and older age or end-of-life supports work together.

Constraints on resources can also mean a lack of forward planning to address the support needs of disabled people who are living with family members. If there is not sufficient access to home care supports or respite, family members can exhaust their capacity to make up the shortfall. This can give rise to a narrative in which the disabled person considers themselves to be a burden. As a result, their options for living with dignity and autonomy seem more constrained.

The NDA also advises the importance of considering how any legislation in this area has due regard to the recognition of capacity of disabled people, as provided for in the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) (Amendment) Act 2022. This legislation is founded on a principle of presumption of capacity, whereby an individual is given any supports necessary to assist them in understanding and making a decision, and that assessment of capacity is done on a functional basis.

Any moves to introduce assisted dying in an Irish context should ensure equal recognition of the rights of disabled persons, and provision of any supports necessary for people to realise these rights, while clarity would be required on how decisions in this space are distinct from those made under an advanced healthcare directive. It is also important any healthcare or medical supports such as provision of information to guide decision-making are offered in a fully accessible manner. Medical staff may require training in this area.

We are also aware the cost of medical or social care supports has been cited as a reason for considering assisted dying in other jurisdictions. An Indecon report on the cost of disability that was published at the end of 2021 through the Department of Social Protection highlighted the additional costs that can attend having a disability. The additional costs vary depending on the person and on the disability but can be considerable. The NDA notes disabled people are also at greater risk of living in poverty than the general population. The NDA advises the importance of ensuring that any framework in which assisted dying might be considered is developed to ensure poverty or lack of access to funds does not become a reason for people to choose this option.

In conclusion, we note concerns that where assisted dying has been introduced, it can be possible for initial safeguards to be reduced over time, increasing the risk of abuse of the concept for groups in more vulnerable situations. We advise that if it is placed on a legislative footing in Ireland, it would be available on an equal basis for disabled people, but that additional care should be taken to ensure work continues and accelerates to ensure a society in which the necessary supports for autonomous and dignified living are in place and that their absence does not become a source of pressure or coercion for disabled people to see assisted death as a more viable option.

I thank Dr. Hartney. Professor O'Neill is next.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee. I am a professor of geriatric medicine, the most widely-published clinician in ethics research in Ireland and contribute to undergraduate, postgraduate and continuing professional development of doctors in ethics, an underdeveloped aspect of healthcare in Ireland. The key focus of euthanasia and assisted suicide is ethics, the code by which society grants liberty of action to healthcare professions in return for a framework that promotes doing the right thing and condemning harmful behaviours. It is separate from law, which is anethical.

I offer a briefer version of my submitted statement, Taking Others Into Account: Towards a positive vision of solidarity and support for our human condition, as it is difficult to compress a complex a complex ethical argument into five minutes. I take my opening quote from the recent policy statement by the National Centre for Ethics in Denmark, arising from a progressive, liberal and pluralist society, the sort of Nordic society to which we often turn for leadership and insight into excellence in care. Based on a broad committee on ethics, care and philosophy, the centre said:

The very existence of an offer of euthanasia will decisively change our ideas about old age, the coming of death, quality of life and what it means to take others into account. If euthanasia becomes an option, there is too great a risk that it will become an expectation aimed at special groups in society.

The whole impetus of medicine is a recognition of our common shared vulnerabilities, strengths and solidarity in a fabric of mutual support. This is supported by an ethos of hope, competence, and supporting our fellow citizens from suffering and despair to the greatest extent possible. A challenge to this solidarity arises from many sources, from emerging neoliberal and capitalist discourses which seek to separate and prioritise the individual over the collective good, to prejudices against disability and ageing, to eugenic impulses which resurface periodically even in modern societies. A particular prejudice is associated with conditions affecting memory, such as dementia, despite increasing knowledge both of quality of life but also how best to engage and support those affected.

A striking example of how good care can be subverted by a sentimental approach to euthanasia as seen in the movie "Million Dollar Baby". We are asked to sympathise with the killing of the quadriplegic woman boxer by her coach, but this arises at the end of an extraordinary catalogue of missed therapeutic opportunities. Her pressure sores and an infected leg that led to an amputation are indicators of substandard care by any standards. She clearly had a severe untreated depression and unresolved family strife, and no effort was made to provide a more domestic and personalised environment in her care facility.

The impact of this erosion on the social support framework was most notable in a recent case where a nursing home doctor in the Netherlands failed to recognise the refusal of euthanasia by a person living with dementia arising from a prior advance directive. As doctors, we recognise that people change with the course of their illnesses. Failing to read these signals, the doctor sedated the patient without her knowledge and consent and had her family physically restrain her while she was euthanised. In terms of tolerance for this major breach of trust and solidarity, what is worrying is that the professions and courts in the Netherlands sided with the doctor rather than the person who had been killed. It is this erosion of the wider caring and solidarity contract that is most corrosive in permitting assisted suicide and euthanasia.

An oft-heard refrain is that of control in the face of terminal illness, failing to recognise both the advances in recognition of consent for, and refusal of, treatment and advances in support and care. While autonomy is important, it is exercised in the embrace of others and mediated by other principles such as justice, doing good, not doing harm - not only to the person, but also to those around him or her - and the impact on the social contract.

An equal issue is that of dignity. It is aspects of the care and settings that may be undignified rather than the person, and the collective impulse of medicine over millennia has been to improve the knowledge, skills and attitudes of staff and to develop more appropriate care settings.

The negative impacts of assisted suicide and euthanasia in Canada, Oregon and the Netherlands in practical terms and in the erosion of a positive supportive approach to care have been eloquently described to the committee by Professor Harvey Chochinov, among others, echoed by the position paper of the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland, which was widely circulated among 14,000 specialists and raised concerns about the impact of assisted suicide and euthanasia on principles and standards of care, suicide prevention, combating discrimination and failing to learn from past and present adverse experiences.

To ask doctors to run counter to this by killing patients short-circuits and undermines our impetus to care, comfort and support and damages not only the framework of care, but also our shared humanity. Current and future patients need to be reassured that the response of the healthcare professions to distress and pain is one of solidarity, compassion and care, addressing needs at a range of levels while respecting wishes to the greatest extent possible. They should be reassured by not only the evidence that death is widely experienced as occurring with dignity within current paradigms, but also by the existing and ongoing development of care paradigms, training and research to continuously enlarge the framework within which the final period of our lives is spent.

I thank Professor O’Neill. I now call Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh and Mr. Wycherly.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

My name is Rosaleen. My speech lends itself to the perception that my capacity is questioned. My impairment is beautiful. May I start again? I am sorry.

Of course. That is no problem.

Mr. Don Wycherly

Who do we have here? Is there anyone with Dr. McDonagh to help her? I am sorry. I am a bit pushed for time. I have an appointment at the fracture clinic. I came off my bike at the weekend. It is very inconvenient at this time of year, as the Chair can imagine.

Yes. We must do the opening statement, though.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

This is part of it.

Can Mr. Wycherly help with the opening statement, if that is what the witnesses want to do?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

We are doing it. We are pushed for time.

Mr. Don Wycherly

Yes. I am pushed for time, what with the fracture clinic, as the Chair can well imagine.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

My name is Rosaleen. My speech lends itself to the perception that my capacity should be questioned. My impairment is beautiful and complex. My speech, my body, my mind could be seen as vulnerable and dependent. I know myself to be strong, full of agency and determined when given access.

My reason for being here today is that assisted suicide decision-making mechanisms have a direct impact on my life.

As a Traveller, there is a history and memory. We are still waiting for the programme for Government commitment to implement the national Traveller mental health strategy. Thank you for having me. I am not finished.

Mr. Don Wycherly

What did you say, Dr. McDonagh?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

My words, they will not come out.

Does Mr. Wycherly want to take a seat?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

My words, they will not come out of me. When I am nervous or panicked, they cannot be found. People do not understand me. Everybody talks so fast in this environment. I get frustrated and confused. Voices like mine are hidden, hurried and silenced. This is who I am. Even my voice needs-----

Mr. Don Wycherly

Support.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

They try to finish my sentences or put me on pause and repeat. This form of humiliation makes me feel unworthy. Someone like me will never be good enough.

Mr. Don Wycherly

How do I put this? Is there a tendency for well-meaning people to misinterpret what you are saying, Dr. McDonagh? Are there circumstances or contexts-----

Can we listen to what Dr. McDonagh is actually saying? I am sorry but Dr. McDonagh has the floor. I am sorry to interrupt, but any time she comes before the committee, it is exceptionally valuable. It is always very challenging, and it is correct that we are challenged. I want to hear from Dr. McDonagh, not from anybody else. It is not appropriate for anybody else-----

What is going on here is going on at Dr. McDonagh's request.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

This is what I want.

I am sorry. I apologise.

If you remember Senator Seery Kearney, it was agreed that she might need a little assistance.

I missed that, and I apologise. I thought Dr. McDonagh was being interrupted.

They are showing how relationships can play out.

I am really sorry. I thought Dr. McDonagh was being interrupted, and I was thinking-----

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I really did not mind-----

Mr. Don Wycherly

Can we start the timer again?

I am not going to cut your time.

There should be no timing.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I am sorry.

There was just a little confusion over the running order.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Okay, Don, we will take it again.

Mr. Don Wycherly

The hint is playwright, actor.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Sometimes people do not understand me. I feel unworthy, not good enough. Someone like me is never good enough.

Mr. Don Wycherly

How do I put this, Dr. McDonagh? Is there a tendency for well-meaning people to misinterpret what you are saying? Are there circumstances or contexts when you say and mean no but they might misconstrue your words to mean yes?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

This happens all of the time. I was a slow girl and I am a slow woman. I am a slow person; too slow for mainstream conversations.

Would you have time to do the rest of my opening statement, Don?

Mr. Don Wycherly

Are you sure? Is this what you want? Do you want me to read your words?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Yes, I am giving you my consent. We are under time pressure.

Mr. Don Wycherly

I am asking you for your consent, Dr. McDonagh, to read your words. Are you consenting?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I am consenting.

Mr. Don Wycherly

All right. That is fine, but stop me anytime. Did you have any particular accent in mind?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

No, use your own.

Mr. Don Wycherly

Right, let us get on with it then. Context and conflict, similar to assisted dying and assisted living, is the fulcrum that swivels regarding who lives and who dies. The task here today is to determine whether people should have a statutory right to assisted dying.

Safeguarding is the intent to protect yet there is a sense that safeguarding is flimsy because it can never be human-proofed. In the war of words and diverse ideologies, ethics, politics and values become abstract and academic. The lived reality of lives that are often considered less, different and troublesome become void of agency. The perception of illness and disability is understood as loss of dignity and loss of agency and bodily integrity, and it is presented as the loss of personhood. This issue is of huge concern and relevance to disabled people. We need to be central in this shaping of legislation.

How am I doing?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Please read the rest. Do a more rural accent. My people are from Sligo.

Mr. Don Wycherly

Sligo. Right. There has been little or no consultation or public conversation – that accent is somewhat too southerly, perhaps – with the very people this proposed legislation will affect. I think I will revert to my accent.

Crucially, we are only over six months into the commencement of the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act and the rights and protections it can afford. Supporting disabled people and those facing terminal illness to have arrangements in place regarding the supports to make fully-informed decisions is paramount. Independent advocacy in this context needs to be resourced and available. Advanced healthcare directives and representatives need to be more accessible and affordable. Disabled people and lawyers identified difficulties within this complicated administrative matrix.

Do you want me to continue?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Talk fast.

Mr. Don Wycherly

Yes. Sorry. You are very contrary.

This conversation is happening in a vacuum. Having end-of-life options presented while having no regard for the convention and its optional protocol seems unethical. If the UNCRPD was implemented and the optional protocol ratified, we in the disability community would feel safer. It would provide us with a sense of value, worth and ambition. Our rights would be recognised, respected and protected. Not implementing the UNCRPD or ratifying the optional protocol while proposing end-of-life options is limiting choices and rights of people with terminal illnesses and impairments. One might be forgiven for feeling cynical or sensing something more sinister is at foot.

To put the optional protocol and convention in context for the committee, the fact that it is not ratified means disabled people, including those with terminal illnesses, are not rights-holders. The State needs to engage with us in a real and concrete fashion. Those expensive ad campaigns are overloaded with the toxic subtext of the burden and cost of illness and impairment. In that context, "contribution", "diversity" and "interdependency" would be words that send affirmative messages.

The accusation of scaremongering or conflating issues of the past would seem disrespectful. The Canadian situation, where permissions for euthanasia have been extended beyond those facing imminent death and now cover many who do not have adequate social and healthcare provision, is frightening and worth referencing. Across Europe, where disabled people are targeted by violence, coercive control, segregation and infantilisation, disabled lives are punished. We are treated as economic burdens. This attitude demonstrates the systemic endemic levels of ableism that we experience. Many people with impairments, like myself, internalise those messages.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

Now what? Go on. Read the last bit.

Mr. Don Wycherly

There is a last bit. Yes. I am strong and healthy now but-----

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

If you adopt this, you deny this, but only for people like me.

Mr. Don Wycherly

The right to a good life and a good death is the marker of our humanity. This means access to healthcare options. We know that many medics make decisions not to offer treatment routes to people with impairments. The call for more counsellors, social workers and clinicians, including cohorts of professionals with impairments, needs to be resourced and included in the context of this discussion.

To live a disabled life is important and having reassurance from the State's apparatus is equally so. Access to those rights is a fundamental human right. The end.

I thank Dr. McDonagh and Mr. Wycherley for their opening statements. Our first speaker will be Senator Seery Kearney and this will be a seven-minute slot to include questions and answers from our witnesses. That interaction will be seven minutes long.

I thank the witnesses. Perhaps we should have flagged it beforehand - and I missed the private meeting - for the benefit of people looking in to know that had been arranged. The whole point of this morning was to not have others speak for Dr. McDonagh. She demonstrated that very well, and that being the point. I am used to Dr. McDonagh making that point so it was very powerful. However, I would have appreciated it if it had been flagged by the committee.

We were not aware either.

The committee members were not aware.

I thought someone was being incredibly rude and wanted them to be removed from the room if they were undermining Dr. McDonagh in any way. It suggests I might be somewhere on the same page with her. Dr. McDonagh and Mr. Wycherley, and Professor O'Neill and Dr. Hartney, have expressed exactly what is one of our concerns throughout this committee's meetings. That there is the lived experience of people with disabilities having had all of their lives a perception of burden that should be removed, and that the universality of design and all of those things are not in place. Then when it comes to a topic such as this there is that fear that it will exacerbate a message that is already there and amplify it. I have consistently been concerned for the elderly in this process. Once the option of assisted dying is on the table is that a societal statement about those who may qualify to take that option? The obvious safeguard is to not introduce it but were it to be introduced, how do we ensure what sort of things should we be looking for? The point has been extremely well made through all of the meetings thus far that we need greater services, funding, and support. That is throughout everything, including palliative care. We have to narrow that down to wording on a page in a report, what sort of things, if any, can be done. I ask all witnesses that question.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I do not mean to be rude but I could be wrong. Suicide rates are above and beyond the average. One could argue I am conflating end of life euthanasia with suicide but in terms of where I live and the people I love and have buried, suicide has marked my family and my community. I fear that if a person is disabled, old, or anything else, if that option is legalised we will lose ourselves in the vacuum of an option that is harmful. Also, as we saw this morning, I know in my own life when I say "No" people often think I am inept so I am not even convinced by the guidelines. I will ask Professor O'Neill to say something.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I am sorry, but I think the only safeguard is to not introduce euthanasia and assisted dying. That is really clear. The Committee on the Danish Council of Ethics is a signal for mature, informed debate. This cannot be regulated. It cannot be governed. It cannot spread further. There was an interesting editorial in The Lancet two weeks ago, the title of which was "Preventing healers from becoming killers". We need to be realistic about the language here. We are talking about assisted dying. Those who know about Londonderry and Derry will understand that language is important. The term "assisted dying" is the language of those who advocate for this. We are really talking about "euthanasia", because in general most people do not want to have assisted suicide. It creates a huge strain. It upturns the parameters. We have to remember that we have an imperfect system and to add to that would make it much more difficult.

For many liberal progressives in society, one of the many objections to the death penalty is that people can be sentenced to the death penalty under false circumstances. If that is case, the danger, in terms of regulation, is that it will be too late and the deed will have happened. We will get what happens in the Netherlands and Canada, where there is a normative conformity. It becomes part of the fabric whereby people feed into this nihilism and despair, rather than looking for positive approaches. The safeguard here is to emphasise care and not killing.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

Our input is on the basis that if this were to be introduced in an Irish context - I am not indicating one way or the other on that - we should not have a situation where people with disabilities are not allowed to have access to an option that is available to the rest of the population because of paternalistic perceptions about capacity. This goes back to the earlier point, as well as points raised by Dr. McDonagh, about the realisation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. It must not be the case that society itself leads to the loss of autonomy, or that it is such a cause of fear for some people that they wish to choose assisted dying. Society itself needs to think about how those barriers are removed through access to services and supports. It is a matter of what supports are necessary for independent living. That takes resources, but it is about moving away from a medical model, whereby decisions are made based on the basis of a perceived impairment, and into a rights-based model, whereby the choices that are made are supported, and they are the choices of the individual and are under control by them.

As Dr. Hartney was speaking, I wrote a note about capacity versus infantilising people and their ability to exercise that capacity. I very much take her point.

I call Deputy Daly.

I have listened to what the representatives have said, and I do not have any questions for any of them at the moment.

I call Deputy Gino Kenny.

I thank the representatives for coming before the committee today to contribute to this ongoing debate. I think some of the language Professor O'Neill used in his statement is very regrettable. It is very regrettable. I refer to the words "killing" and "eugenics". This is going down a road I do not think we should go down. I cannot stop people who come before the committee, or those outside the committee, from using terminology that is offensive to those who are trying to have a reasonable debate about assisted dying. Does Professor O'Neill know of any jurisdiction in which assisted dying is compulsory?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

It is not so much compulsory, but you find that people get dragged into it or are pulled into it. Atul Gawande has written a very interesting editorial about doctors who get involved in the death penalty. They are living in a small----

Professor Desmond O'Neill

Sorry, I am answering

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I am answering your question.

We are talking about assisted dying. We are not talking about the death penalty.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

Cathaoirleach, can I answer?

We are not talking about the death penalty.

Let him answer it in whatever way he likes and then you can come back if you have another question or query on the answer.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

What we see is what we call “normative conformity”, whereby standards slip around providing adequate and appropriate care. The members of the committee heard about some of this from New Zealand yesterday. People will feel that because it is there, somebody should be doing it. Then we see slippage in providing appropriate care.

The language I use is the language used in the ethics literature. What we need to bring to this arena is an informed debate where we use the language that is common and procedurally used. When we hear that the language is offensive, certainly in debating and other circles, we are concerned that people are trying to stifle the actual language of ethics journals, research and positioning as it is. If The Lancet, which is a broad-based and general journal, one of the top journals in the world, talks about preventing healers from becoming killers, that is what it is.

It is regrettable that the professor is using that kind of language. A palliative care specialist from Australia was before the committee last week. He said that those who avail of assisted dying in his state in Australia find it extremely offensive when the issues of assisted dying and suicide are conflated. They find it extremely offensive. I will leave that issue there.

Dr. Hartney's opening statement was very good on the overall basis of assisted dying legislation. It is up to this committee to recommend access to assisted dying or not. I hope it does recommend the option. The majority of the population of Ireland support legislative change in that regard, as has been borne out by numerous polls. Any assisted dying system will only be as good as the legislation. It must be extremely robust. The committee has heard from specialists from New Zealand and Australia. Their legislation on assisted dying is very young and limited, but it is extremely robust for those who can avail of assisted dying. For example, in New Zealand, one cannot avail of assisted dying on the grounds of disability or advanced age. One cannot avail of it on mental health grounds. I generally agree with those parameters. Other jurisdictions have a more liberal approach. We must look at the Irish context for assisted dying. We are the legislators, at the end of the day. If assisted dying is legislated for, it must be extremely robust. Those who can avail of assisted dying will be a cohort of people. The parameters in other jurisdictions are more broad and I am not saying that is necessarily wrong. The legislation must be robust and identify who can avail of assisted dying. Does Dr. Hartney agree that legislators, such as us, must put in place legislation to identify those who cannot avail of assisted dying?

Dr. Aideen Hartney

I thank the Deputy. I agree that the legislation would need to be robust and robust safeguards would be required. Where I feel the situation is a little more nuanced is that an entire cohort might be excluded on the grounds of a disability or their age. The capacity question, as Dr. McDonagh so ably demonstrated, must address a situation where somebody with a disability has a terminal illness and, therefore, wishes to avail of assisted dying. Just because such a person has a disability should not mean he or she is excluded from that option. The legislation should be putting up guard rails and safeguards in respect of the reasons for wishing for assisted dying. They must be tangible or demonstrable and kept in the medical arena. A terminal illness is what most other jurisdictions are about, rather than some of those societal barriers where people feels life is not worth living because they do not have access to the services or supports they need. That is where the legislation would need to be careful.

The question presupposes that assisted dying will be introduced and the National Disability Authority, NDA, is not taking a position in that regard in its input to this committee. We can only offer the research on the barriers that apply at the moment and how they might be perceived by people as reasons for opting for assisted dying.

We all recognise the deficiencies in some areas of palliative care and general case.

We should never have circumstances where someone wants to avail of assisted dying because of not being able to get that care. That can never happen. However, even in a society where all those provisions can be put in place, it is a fundamental right that people who are coming to the end of their lives have a say in how they die. That is the fundamental issue in assisted dying. It is their life at the end of the day. We should not maintain the paternalistic approach we have had in the past which has failed. We need a rights-based approach and a patient-based approach so that people can avail of assisted dying. What kind of a society or hierarchy says people cannot do so, that they have to suffer? What kind of society do we live in? I know Professor O'Neill does not agree, but they are the parameters we have to look at.

I thank everyone for their contributions and Dr. McDonagh for waking us up and making us think about what was going on. What came across - I hope I am correct - is the idea of impatience, paternalism and Dr. McDonagh's ability to consent again and again to the continuation of the reading of the speech. The person checked back in and she was well able to continue to be able to say this is what she wanted the person to do and how she wanted it to be done. It was new for someone to bring a little theatre to what is often theatre here.

She brought a bit of quality to the theatre.

Yes, a bit of quality to the theatre. I thank her for her powerful contribution and for how she delivered it. It was welcome.

I have questions for Dr. Hartney and Dr. McDonagh, but I will save them for the second half. I will go to Professor O'Neill first. The reason I want to focus on his contribution is that it is the one I have to challenge myself on in my head as regards the ideas that are put forward. It was interesting. My brain sees some of the quotes Professor O'Neill used in a completely different way than he intended. That shows the perceptions of how we engage with the topic. We can both look at the same thing in different ways, such as when we say all autonomy is exercised in the embrace of others. I think that quote means empowering people to be able to embrace their own autonomy. The idea can almost be flipped around to suit the narrative I have in my head. What struck me most and had me reading a lot last night and this morning was the idea that euthanasia or assisted dying is neoliberal. Every other part of my work and identity relate to the collective good and social good. When I began to think about this idea of neoliberalism and individualistic decision-making, I wondered about the role of autonomy in the collective good. Is there a moral, political and ethical role for autonomy in the common good?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

Yes, there is. Sometimes the debate gets phrased in the sense of people not having a say in their death. That is not at all true. What is interesting in this area is that the people who perhaps generate most of the concern about this are the people who deal most with people who are dying. A high priority is given to what the person says and wants. There is never any question of us telling people they cannot have something and that we are happy for them to die in suffering. That is completely not the case.

The key problem relates to disconnecting autonomy from the other principles around it and seeing autonomy as a complete good in itself. One of the key writings to read on this are those by the former chair of UK Human Rights Commission. She is a distinguished philosopher called Onora O'Neill. She has written tellingly about how autonomy has to be embedded with not doing harm, doing good and justice, not only for the person but also for those around that person and for society. We are often asked in healthcare for things that would really cause great challenges. We have moved well away from any sense of what is called paternalism. Edmund Pellegrino talked about the good doctor being a moderate autonomist and a moderate welfarist.

People come to us in trouble and suffering, and we are there to support them. There are obviously asymmetries of knowledge and one of our journeys is to try to correct and get to know each other. Autonomy has to be considered relative to other areas. In the United States, for example, autonomy is about having a gun, and we can see the havoc that wreaks. People say, "It is my right to have a gun." In New Hampshire you can ride a motorbike without a bike helmet. We cannot. We have decided there are limits to autonomy.

It comes to the dimensions of healthcare. I was looking at the Martha Nussbaum stuff, and tried to read some of the chapters in The Fragility of Goodness, but I only noticed the quote too late and only got some sense of it. It led me to another journal that looked at some of her other work. Autonomy obviously operates in several different spaces. If we keep it within the ethical space of care, there is the idea that there are two ethical dimensions a medical professional will have to take into account. On one hand is the duty of care and on the other the importance of patient autonomy. There is that duty of care and the idea we cannot take a life. Autonomy then falls under the idea of the healer not being a killer or whatever quote was used.

I do not just read around the submissions that come in, I read all of the submissions. However, I still do not understand, from any contribution over the past months, how the collective good is damaged by giving that care, or that right, to someone at the end of their lives, obviously with stringent frameworks. Let us take into account a doctor's will not to cause harm and the fact you have all of these other principles interacting with this other principle. What if you remove the doctor from the role and the principles that govern them as a healer, as a doctor or somebody who does no harm and is there to alleviate pain but not take life? Remove all of those things, including a doctor. Is there the same negative impact on the public good, if you were to remove all of the ethical principles of a medical practitioner and look at it as a layperson?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

Sometimes you have to go back to our concern about suicide, for example. When we decriminalised suicide it was not to create suicide as a right, it was so as not to cause distress, in particular for families or where there had been a failed attempt at suicide. The decriminalisation was part of an understanding of distress and suffering and not adding to it through the legislative route. New Zealand and Australia are obviously very young. There is the idea you can put in these safeguards, when all of those will almost certainly be challenged under human rights law, and all will be eroded. In the first case of euthanasia in the Netherlands where the doctor was taken up, the judge said it was probably acceptable because the patient had bedsores and the room reeked of urine. All we could think was that this was the most awful justification of poor care. The impulse should be to get the pressure sores healed, and in most proper care facilities you will not smell urine. The danger here is despair and nihilism. We have imperfect systems, and we have to have a margin that always supports the therapeutic impulse. We think of the bombshell that is suicide. The reason we are concerned is not that everybody who commits suicide has a mental illness of some kind. The John Donne poem states that every time we lose somebody we lose a part of ourselves as well. Choice, autonomy and having a say are now key. I sometimes hear the medical model being used loosely as a phrase. We go for the biopsychosocial model. That is the core part of healthcare. We also find people growing in their illness. For many advocates at time when they are looking to the future, we find that most of them end up dying a natural death like Terry Pratchett.

I circulated to members material on the stress these type of choices put on people around them.

Thank you. I call Deputy Troy.

I will come in later.

Next is Senator Mullen, please.

Will Professor O'Neill finish his point? He was interrupted.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

There is a massive importance in terms of the philosophy and framework. Part of the issue of giving liberty to healthcare professionals to manage a space without using algorithms or having everything nailed down is that they will have a code which promotes doing the right thing - which Atul Gawande talks about in the context of virtuous thought and virtuous action - and condoning harmful behaviour. One of my concerns for Ireland is that the over-dominance of the Catholic Church at one stage has left a bad taste and vacuum whereby people have lost ethical articulacy about this. When you lose ethical articulacy, you retreat towards legalism when you say if it is legal, it is probably ethical. For example, under our code, it is unethical to have sexual relationships with a patient, but there is nothing in the law against that. There are clearly things that are different in an ethics code from a legal code. There is always a challenge in a stressed, pressured system whereby if you offer people ways out of difficult and traumatic situations, they will take these shortcuts. We are seeing this already in Canada where people are being offered medical assistance in dying, MAiD, as a potential care option rather than asking them about the ways in which we can deal with their suffering. There is no question that we wish to see suffering not being relieved. We see the increase not only in euthanasia in the Netherlands, from 3.4% in 2017 to over 5% of all deaths now, but also an increase in suicide. It is around how we message and it is around our framework of messaging and discourse for care.

I have been hearing from those who want a change in the law that it is about them and their personal decision, and maybe the family which supports them in their decision. I get the impression those who propose a change in the law do not see that other people might be affected by that choice. Is that what it comes down to? We are reassured, though it is not reassuring, that those who go for it are middle class or relatively well-off. In other words, do not worry, it will not be the vulnerable. That narrative has played out. I suspect a euthanasia law facilitates those who want to get on with lowering costs and who see complex medical treatments, particularly for those who are getting older, as a nuisance in the public healthcare system. I worry about that agenda.

I have said here we need to consider in our discussions the health economics dimension of this question, if there is one. If we legalise this for some, will others down the line, perhaps not as easy to identify but surely there, lose their will to live and strength to cope with suffering and challenge and will society be less willing to provide the back-ups? We have heard from the NDA on making sure backups are there so vulnerable people do not get caught by this, but we all know the backups will not be there any time soon.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

The problem is we will be increasingly deprived of the therapeutic impulse, the hope impulse, connectedness and respect. About ten years ago, RTÉ broadcast a programme on this topic and showed an example of the awfulness of what life might be life. It showed a man lying flat on his bed, coughing and spluttering, and he had a feeding tube in. Actually, that was an example of poor care. You should not be feeding anyone with a tube when they are lying flat on their back, so I got on to the programme makers. It was a classic example of creating a space for despair and nihilism.

We tend to be negative about the future.

One of the classic examples of people thinking into the future is taking a mortgage. A mortgage is an advance financial directive. It is a contract that is made and it seems fine. Many people took out mortgages during the Celtic tiger and then when everything went bust, as a society we realised that things had changed and we went to vast lengths to support people who were in distress from something that had been entered into as a contract. The concern very often is people fearing for the future, losing trust and not generating an expectation of a framework of trust, care and support. It affects the individual, those around them and their family. It also affects the core impulse of the healthcare professions and the development of better care. There was a classic example in Canada of a quadriplegic woman who had made her own way all the way. All of a sudden, her job dried up for some reason and she applied for disability benefit. They told her it would take nine months and she was going to be income-free for nine months, so she decided to go for medical assistance in dying and she was told she could get that in 90 days. She made that as a point in challenging the disparity of what may happen when this is offered as a way out. She would have been accepted for medical assistance in dying.

I might just address a question to Dr. Hartney and Dr. McDonagh very briefly. I think there was a tension between what the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, had to say and what the NDA is telling us. Representatives from IHREC came in here and said that whatever we do, it should not be on grounds of disability. I sense a different position from Dr. Hartney, whereby the NDA is saying that whatever is available must be available even if the person, who would otherwise qualify, has a disability. She is saying there must be strict equality. She also warns against the possibility that the absence of the necessary supports for autonomous and dignified living could become a source of pressure or coercion for disabled people to see assisted death as a viable option. There is the possibility, of course, that people could bring discrimination-based cases on the ground that if it is available for somebody who is terminally ill, why not for somebody whose perception of their own long-term disability means that they do not want to go on living either.

Given that the NDA is not a representative body, it actually is in a position to make a recommendation on the basis of its own analysis of policy. If we stay as we currently are in terms of the level of supports that are available, should this be legalised, having regard to the NDA's particular concern for the needs of people with disabilities? On the basis of the current medical-economic set-up in terms of what is and is not available for people in various situations of vulnerability, if we cannot be guaranteed of any change in that would the NDA recommend a change in the law? I address the same question to Dr. McDonagh.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

With respect, I do not think we are in a position to offer a recommendation one way or the other. On what I was saying in relation to whether it should be on grounds of disability or not, society should not create conditions where the disability per se becomes the reason a person might wish to avail of assisted dying. What we are saying is that people with disabilities are rights holders along with everybody else, so if legislation applies to Irish society, it should apply to all groups equally. The challenge is to ensure that the reasons or the grounds on which someone might avail of assisted dying are not because they have a disability or because they exceed a certain age, but because of certain other prescribed conditions. That is where we would be on that.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I ask the Chair for an extra minute. I will try to be fast. Before answering the Senator, I want to say that in the real world, Senator Ruane and I are on the same page on many issues. I consider myself a libertarian, a feminist and an anti-racist advocate.

Those are all political ideologies which have the parameters for me to live a good life and to be generous towards other people. I hope I have done that and if I live long enough, I want to continue doing that.

The issue at hand is very complex for me. I am normally on the other side but I live in this body. I have lived in this body a long time. I have also held the bodies of cousins, friends and family members who have been cut down from a tree, pulled out of a river or taken out of a car after being in a car crash. Every time it comes to this discussion, I understand your difficulty because I understand my own. I suppose that is the difference between being disabled and not being disabled. I do not mean that in a facetious way. People will vote for you to be a Senator. People will never vote for me as a Senator. That is the way of the world. My fear is that when we set precedents, and we do set precedents, be they formal or informal, legal or general, the precedents then become the norm.

I have bad days. I have spent time in psychiatric institutions. I have had to wait a long time to get the mental health help I needed. I would still consider myself shaky. We saw the programme last week about young Patrick. I was invited to go on that programme but I could not do it because it is too raw. It is too near me.

Deputy Kenny is a working-class man. In another life we would be on the same page. The language I use around euthanasia is the language I know from history, the language of what it was like to be a Jew, to be a Traveller, to be disabled, to be a gay person, to be Sinti or Roma. That is my heritage. That is the language my people were brought to their graves with. I am sorry if anyone feels that is not appropriate but that is the only language I know.

It is unusual for Senator Mullen and I to be on the same side but it shows the multifaceted ways in which different lives come together at very important moments. I mean no disrespect. These bodies claim to represent disabled people but they still have not lived their lives.

We cannot document everything that happens to us on a daily basis. While I respect the position or non-position of the committee members I feel that if more disability organisations were funded and led by disabled people, we would be in a stronger position.

I thank the Chair for the invitation. The last thing I would say is that I respect this House, and the country that I was reared in, although it did not very much respect or cherish me. I am here giving testimony and a contribution on an issue that is not very much like the referendum on marriage or the same as removing gender from the legislation. All the other liberal things we have done in this country have been brilliant. We have grown up and have seen our young people vote in what I consider to be the correct way because of what our generation had to put them through. I greatly worry that if this comes to pass, that it will be offered to someone like me because I am having a bad day or because I am not being a good patient. I thank the Chair.

I thank Dr. McDonagh very much. I call Deputy Pa Daly to speak now if he wishes to.

I call Deputy Seery Kearney.

Dr. McDonagh's testimony was very powerful and I feel totally inadequate in following her with a question other than to say that it is very powerful. I also hear Dr. McDonagh make the point regarding Travellers and suicide and the value of people in our State. I very much hear and want to honour that.

I also want to address something from the last round of questions where Professor O'Neill referred to an editorial in The Lancet, entitled Preventing healers from becoming killers. I believe that without that clarification, there is an inference that the subject matter of that article has to do with assisted dying when, in fact, it does not. We need to clear that up for this committee. That article refers to The Lancet Commission on medicine, Nazism, and the Holocaust: historical evidence, implications for today, teaching for tomorrow, and is about the fact that medical people got involved in medical research using victims of the Holocaust and people who were incarcerated during it. It also concerns the fact that some medical and teaching institutions still hold human remains from that time, their research is derived from that time and the ethics of that and how it should be dealt with. It is important that we do not inadvertently mislead this committee that the title of an article is somehow attached and I do not appreciate that that might be left in the ether. I agree with much of what Professor O'Neill said but the fact that article was referred to in this context makes me call into question some of it.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

If I may say to the Senator that in the context of a five-minute cut down of a speech, and short questioning, I am more than happy to come back on the point raised by her. Much of The Lancet commission deals with the problem of normative conformity, of doctors staying silent during the T4 euthanasia experiment on the disabled people and about the failure of the German Medical Association for nearly 70 years to apologise. It was a much broader context than just around experiments.

I am happy to say it related to that but it was about the lessons for today of a lack of ethical insight and articulacy and calling out early when something appears to be a danger to the broader practice of medicine. There was no intention to mislead and if one reads within into the articles and fuller commission report, it is clear that the broader medical profession failed. The sharp pointy bit was what happened around experimentation. The widespread acceptance of sending children with psychiatric illness and intellectual disabilities towards the T4 euthanasia programme-----

There is no question that the normalising of anything and the implications of that in our society have been consistently raised by our committee. However, non-medical people know of The Lancet and would hold it in esteem. Citing an article in this context with that title can be misleading. While I take Professor O'Neill's point regarding normative conformity, I had the benefit of sitting back while others asked questions and had the opportunity to read the article. While it is informative, it may be misleading for others who have not read the article. I wish to confirm that for my colleagues on the committee.

I acknowledge and thank Dr. McDonagh for her powerful contribution. Her opening address, which I watched from my office upstairs, reaffirmed that just because someone has a disability does not mean they do not have the ability to speak for themselves. While that piece of theatre was put on, my colleague inadvertently, in trying to help, perhaps presumed that Dr. McDonagh would not be able to speak for herself.

No. That is not what happened. I thought Dr. McDonagh was genuinely being interrupted. I could not understand how the Chair was not intervening.

That is the point I was making. She made a presumption that our witness did not have the ability to stand up for herself and, if she was being interrupted, being able to say that for herself. We must be very careful. That was extremely powerful.

Dr. McDonagh highlighted in her statement that the voices of other people with disabilities are sidelined and, at times, minimised. Will she suggest recommendations for how to ensure the voices of people with disabilities are more centred in discussions that will affect their lives?

Professor O'Neill said he did not wish to see a situation in which suffering would be left unrelieved. I think that was in reply to one of my colleagues. Is there any instance in which he feels assisted dying may be warranted? I think of the awful disease that is motor neurone disease. It is a life sentence because there is no cure for it. The prognosis is so desperate and the final days, weeks and sometimes months can be horrendous for the patient and families. That is only one instance I can think of. I am not for one minute suggesting that people who suffer from that should avail of the option but I am giving it as an example. In one of his replies, he said that despite robust frameworks being in place, they can be eroded over time and he predicted that. A concern many people have is that if the Irish adopted a model with an extremely robust, limited set of criteria for the people who may avail of it, that could be eroded over time. Why does he make that prediction?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I might come in there in a different sort of way. It is almost magical thinking to believe there is a regulatory approach that will control this. One of the very first really troubling things from which the whole culture of research ethics committees arose was the Tuskegee experiment, in which half of a cohort of African-Americans with syphilis were not treated to see what would happen. The author of the report that led to the setting up of research ethics committees and regulation said that regulation will never be enough and that if we do not have a system that promotes virtuous thought and action, it will come to naught. In other aspects of care, including nursing home care, humans are humans, and regulation is never enough. We have to have a system that promotes virtuous thought and action, or, as Atul Gawande would say, we have to do the right thing.

Regarding what the Deputy referred to, with certain illnesses there is a danger of adding to diagnoses by apocalyptic talk about what the conditions actually mean. I direct committee members to Simon Fitzmaurice's book It's Not Dark Yet. The really chilling bit was also in The Irish Times. It refers to a doctor asking Mr. Fitzmaurice whether he was happy to die. He had got pneumonia and the doctor did not want to ventilate him because of a recurring feeling that life with motor neurone disease was not worth living. My experience after nearly 40 years of work, which I believe is that of many in palliative care and others, is that when people present with what appears to be difficult suffering, a second opinion very often offers light and insight regarding the opportunities that exist. Bearing in mind the case on the television I referred to, what we want to do is provide care, support and hope to people with the conditions in question. In this regard, Simon Fitzmaurice was really instrumental in creating an environment in which he could say he wanted to live, go on and produce a film.

Consent is exceedingly important. A say is important so people will not get life-prolonging treatment they do not want and so they will get palliative care to the greatest extent possible, but the real challenge of labelling any condition as entailing a life not worth living is what it creates in respect of this framework.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I thank Jim Culleton and Fishamble. Nobody else would have allowed me to do what I have done this morning. The value of arts in transforming somebody's mental health and life cannot be underestimated.

In response to Deputy Troy's question, I would say there are three points. The Government needs to ratify the optional protocol of the UNCRPD. Having this conversation without ratifying the protocol leaves us in a vacuum. We need to have independent advocacy resourced and funded. Whether we get euthanasia or not, that should be available.

My last point is complicated. Disabled people have diverse opinions on this matter. I respect that. We all have different histories and ways of thinking and living; however, to elevate the words, concerns and value of our contributions, we need more funding for disability organisations.

Does Professor O'Neill accept that in the context of their end-of-life care, there are some people who have difficult deaths? We had representatives from the Irish College of General Practitioners in last week who said 5% to 6% of those who die in the State will have quite difficult deaths. Does Professor O'Neill accept that in the context of the circumstances to which I refer? We are not talking about assisted dying; we are talking about people having quite difficult deaths.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I will say to the Deputy that death in general is difficult. There is a range of perceptions around it. There is a very telling article by three palliative care physicians based on Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich, which talks about how the narrative is often told by the survivors. It was based on a woman who preferred to have less pain control and less sedation. Her three children felt angry and disappointed that their mother seemed to be in pain but, in fact, she had autonomy and control. We cannot iron out every wrinkle. I think that the-----

Does Professor O'Neill accept that there is suffering in certain circumstances?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I accept that.

It can be extreme suffering, and modern medicine cannot ameliorate it. That exists. I am sure the professor has seen it in his profession.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I have seen challenging deaths all the way through, whether it is emotional, physical or psychological. I have seen vast improvements in how people are being dealt with. There are many challenging passages in life, and what we have got to keep in our minds is that therapeutic, supportive upfall.

I understand that, and I agree. However, there are circumstances where people have extremely difficult endings. In those situations, I believe, and I hope the majority of people in Ireland believe, that in very limited circumstances somebody should have a say in how they die. I think that is a fundamental right, and I think Professor O'Neill would agree with that.

Let us say that somebody said to Professor O'Neill that they wanted to refuse all medication and treatment whatsoever. I am sure he has seen a situation where somebody has done that. It can be really gruesome when they refuse all sorts of medical care because they do not want to go through the end of their lives. In that situation, what would Professor O'Neill say to the person involved?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

The challenge, as Dr. Chochinov said to the committee at its previous meeting, is that people wax and wane. At particular moments, people have thoughts about wanting to die and then not wanting to die. Predicting what is going to be difficult or a challenge is actually very difficult. If we were to start thinking that over 40,000 people in Canada were all in intractable suffering that could not be treated, it really seems most unrealistic and unlikely, or one in 20 of the deaths in the Netherlands. It is magical to think that this can be restricted. This is a light switch; it is on or it is off.

It is a very fallacious argument to say that if one introduced A, then B, C, D and E will follow. There is no evidence for that whatsoever. One can look at Oregon, which is a very good example. It had assisted dying for the past 28 years and the parameters have not changed whatsoever. Other countries have slightly broadened their parameters but it is a red herring to say that if we introduced A in Ireland, then B, C, D, E and F will want to avail of assisted dying. That is not the case. It is scaremongering to say that if legislation is put in place, then everybody will want access to assisted dying. That is ridiculous.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

This is almost reducing it to absurdity. Nobody has ever said that everybody will want it.

Professor O'Neill has not been in here. Certain people----

Professor Desmond O'Neill

May I respond?

Deputy Kenny must give Professor O'Neill a chance.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

Oregon has changed its parameters.

We do not want to get into a kind of Punch and Judy argument over this. It is clear that anywhere that has had this service for more than ten years has changed the parameters. As has been said before, housing and finance then became key issues in those places. These are the very things, in a liberal, progressive society, that we are trying to improve. Things have changed in Oregon. I am happy to provide a paper to the committee detailing the changes Oregon has made in opening out the criteria.

I would dispute that assertion.

Professor Desmond O'Neill

I refer back to the collective wisdom of the Danish group. The Nordic countries, as a rule, have been prudent around this issue. Prudence is often the under-recognised virtue in what we do. If there had been more prudence in the banks, we would not have had a banking crash. Prudence is an awareness of the implications of what you are doing to yourself and to other people. It is deeply imprudent to open this out in a negative, nihilistic way. I have always seen a low threshold for a second opinion as always opened outdoors. The support of palliative care and the growth in families and those around them are factors. There are difficulties throughout life. Our role is to minimise them. It is not a perfect system but doing something that further damages and aggravates is not helpful.

A conversation we have not yet had, which Senator Mullen and I spoke about last week after the meeting, was referred to by Dr. Hartney when she talked about people being able to live within their homes. In all the weeks we have been here, we have not looked at home care and the inadequacy of its provision in Ireland, with people not having access to it for all sorts of reasons, whether they have lived their whole life with a disability or they need it because of ageing. Professor O'Neill was my father's doctor in Tallaght hospital at one stage when he was dealing with several conditions relating to ageing. I am thinking of some of those issues.

I am also thinking about what Rosaleen said. I should say "Dr. McDonagh"; as we are old friends, she will forgive me for forgetting her title momentarily. I am thinking about the UNCRPD and also the health and equality aspect, looking at the intersection of, say, class, race or Traveller ethnicity. Then I think of the ethics aspect. I am looking at all those pieces and I consider that it is really easy to apply a very obvious ethical framework at the decision-making moment when it is a question of whether a person should be assisted to die. The doctor, in all the ethical glory of the profession, can say, "I think this is unethical and does harm." However, ethical decisions are made daily in the lives of people that result in harm being done by the medical profession. I have worked with many people in addiction who are at different stages of liver cirrhosis and have been refused placement on lists for a liver transplant because they have not managed to get their alcohol use under control. This has resulted in their death; a death they did not want to happen. I worked with a homeless man who did not want to die but the medical profession would not give him Interferon or whatever medication it was for hepatitis. Medical decisions are made every day that are unethical and do harm.

Sometimes, they are about cost. Sometimes, it is about treatment options. Dr. McDonagh pointed out that some people are not offered the range of options that should be available to them. Will she comment further on that? I am wondering where the intersection is with decisions about what is profitable for the medical community in terms of not offering a particular lifesaving treatment, whether because of paternalism or the idea that if people are still in addiction, they will not be put on the liver waiting list, thereby resulting in their death. That might not be Dr. McDonagh's area of medicine but the point I am making is that ethical decisions are being made all day long that slowly and subtly move people closer to their death. When we look at assisted dying, however, there is an idea that there is an easy ethical decision to be made when it comes to whether people can, or cannot, do it.

How do we marry those two things together in our minds, given that when we discuss health inequality and health equity, we must think about how one is blocked from living well in the first place and about how medical decisions result in people's deaths.

Dr. Aideen Hartney

In answering the Senator's question, I will reiterate a point made by Dr. McDonagh. As we are not a representative body and we have not consulted widely among people with disabilities on this matter, it is beyond our competency to have a position on this. It is a much wider ranging debate than just the question of disability. Our competency is to advise this committee, if it is making a recommendation one way or the other, on the areas that would need to be focused on in terms of introducing safeguards.

The Senator is absolutely right to pick up on the question of inadequate home care supports and the question of housing. Professor O'Neill has mentioned that housing is an issue that has been raised in other jurisdictions. We find that the inadequate access to accessible housing stock means that people are rooted into institutional models of care as they age, perhaps as they acquire a disability or as they age with a disability. In the disability specialist services sector there is now a perception that congregated settings are not delivering good outcomes and quality of life for people. There seems to be a disconnect then at the older age end of things. This committee might like to think about delving into a few of those areas in greater detail. Organisations like ourselves can offer advice and guidance on specific matters like housing stock, transport, and access to community living and independent living. It is important, in the whole medical arena, to ensure healthcare is delivered in a way that is accessible to all who wish to access it. Further training and education is probably necessary in this area to ensure complicated medical information is delivered in a way that allows the patient to understand if they have a particular disability. If this is the route that is taken, a lot more work needs to be done with a focus on this area. I certainly think speaking directly to disabled persons' organisations would be a valuable use of the committee's time in order to hear directly from the people who have the lived experience.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh

I hope I will always be Rosaleen to Senator Ruane. I want to give a philosophical answer and then a practical answer. In our daily lives, all of us make unconscious decisions around our ethical behaviour. I decide that I am going to be here, what I am going to say and how I will say it. Right throughout today I will speak, as we all will. History has shown us, not just in Ireland but universally, that medics - no disrespect to them - and the law have failed us as disabled people, and as people of colour or ethnic minorities. We have always been the last rung of the ladder. When medics and lawyers get to us, they see the impairment. They look for who is weaker so that they can converse fast and quick, and tidy up the mess that has been made. I do not have enough time to talk about the level of ableism we live with - I would put people to sleep - so I will not do so. What I would say to Lynn - woman to woman - around the optional protocol and the Government's resistance to ratifying it is that if it was about any other group in society, we would have a cultural push behind it. We do not have, as disabled people, that cultural push behind us to elevate our status as human citizens with rights.

Finally, with regard to home care and personal assistant services, members have done a lot of work on this and met a lot of people, including from Nursing Homes Ireland and other groups. I bring the Chair back to the document from the Disability Federation of Ireland, DFI, on people under the age of 65 being put in nursing homes because there was no other option available. We do not pay personal assistants and care workers the money they deserve. Some people like me and others are left wondering who will put me to bed tonight and who will help me with my dinner. There are hundreds upon hundreds of disabled people, men and women, settled and Traveller, and everyone else. This discussion is about assisted dying. I would also like a conversation here in this House, with respect, about assisted living.

I thank our guests and experts and, if I may, I just want to tease out one or two things. All through this process we have been going through in recent weeks, I have been very struck by our need to take very seriously and respectfully on the one hand people's personal testimony and, on the other hand, to grapple with the big picture policy impacts of what we do and its impact on other people even if we do not get to hear their personal testimony. For example, on Oregon, one point I have been trying to bring out is that we have seen a growing number of people - up at 53% in the past year - who gave as an issue of concern that they were a burden. I was accused by an Australian doctor last week of cherry-picking. My response to this is, if the cherry is there, it is a rather poisonous cherry and we need to think about what caused it to grow.

Perhaps Professor O'Neill can help us with my next question. While I have great respect for people who tell their personal story, including people who want a change in the law, I also worry when I hear the phrases "unbearable suffering" or "horrendous suffering" being used as a kind of lever to push for a change in the law. Does that sometimes involve - it was suggested as much - those who are looking on projecting their fears onto people whose actual experience of dealing with fear and overcoming fear of pain or suffering can be much more complex and can evolve? For example, when people receive a cancer diagnosis, there is a higher risk of depression and suicidality in the early stages but it is something that can be addressed. I wonder if we are sometimes projecting our fears when we talk about horrendous or unbearable suffering in the abstract like that? Have we begun the process? Is it a performative utterance in the sense of whether we have begun the process of weakening people's ability to deal with the challenge by going on about it in that way, certainly by those of us who are not enduring it.

There is a second part to my question. In the light of what my friend and colleague Deputy Kenny was putting to the witnesses, and where the physical suffering experienced by people at end of life is enormously difficult, where does palliative sedation fit in? I am aware it does not address the demand for absolute autonomy but is it an important issue to be considered in the context of the management of pain and symptoms of pain as people discuss what is unbearable?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

There are dangers of creating apocalyptic scenarios. It is interesting that one of the challenges to me is often is how negatively we talk about our health service, but if we look at the OECD statistics, we actually rank relatively high in a wide range of areas. Sure there are problems of access but if you go to Canada or these places where we think it is all great, there are problems of access everywhere. There is a similar danger with many of the diagnoses or the issue of suffering of creating this dark picture that is at variance in many ways, in particular around disability.

As Dr. McDonagh knows, even if the quality of life of the person with disability is ten, it is rated lower by family members and it is rated even lower by healthcare staff and those around them. This means that getting to the truth is really important. It is a question of building up the services, trying to reassure people and getting a second opinion.

Senator Ruane made a comment about people being deprived of access. When people are dealing with people, there is always going to be imperfection. We had the Morris tribunal and we did not disband the Garda but learned from it. We had the Mahon tribunal and we did not disband the Oireachtas but we learned from it. I would reassure people that there are vivid discussions within medicine and healthcare ethics around resource allocation and how best to use scarce resources. I would always say to anybody here who has constituents who feel they are not getting treatment that everyone has a right to a second opinion. Asking for a second opinion often sparks increased vigilance, so I encourage people to do so. What was the second part of the question?

I asked about the performative aspect of talking about unbearable suffering. I want to ask another question while Professor O'Neill gathers his thoughts. It is clear that he and others do not believe in safeguards being possible in the event of a change in the law, or that there is certainty that they would be eroded. Does Professor O'Neill think there would be a shift in the attitudes of the State towards the funding of things like palliative care and supports for people with life-limiting conditions, including disability at various levels, of the kind that has been discussed by Dr. Hartney and others?

Professor Desmond O'Neill

There is some worry. It is not so much that it might erode some of the impetus. Indeed, we have seen papers from health economists in Canada mentioning how much could be saved if there was a more widespread implementation of MAID. We all must be striving and be cautiously optimistic that we are going to do better. We are not not giving euthanasia solely because of this. I think we need to be aware of the wider implications. There is a sense that this can be seen as a cost-saving measure for the wider system.

I was very taken by Dr. McDonagh's written contribution. It is very powerful. I will certainly be advocating inclusion in any report of some of the elements she has mentioned today with regard to assisted living. One of the big learnings for me throughout recent months is that as a State, we need to redouble our efforts. This does not mean we are going to get it right, but we need to take a good long look at and analyse how we assist people in living, see where the failings are and discover how we can do much better. My simple summary of what has been said is that if we help people to live, it is not that we would not be looking at assisted dying but that the conversation around it might not be as broad. Dr. McDonagh has been very provocative - I mean that in a positive sense - about the area of dignity for people with disabilities. I have had a reality check because we have been talking about burdensomeness and dignity at the end of life for people. It has been a constant theme here that people feel they have become a burden and that there can be a loss of dignity in the face of very serious illness and terminal illness. Dr. McDonagh has highlighted that the loss of dignity can be a lifelong issue for people and not exclusively people with disabilities but also people who face varying challenges.

One of the pieces of evidence included John Donne's poem, "No man is an island." I grappled with that for very many years. When I was a psychotherapist, I saw people who had depression and they certainly felt like islands.

There are times in people's lives, no matter how lofty or noble the intervention may seem, where ill health completely separates people from the rest. It is not until you experience this that you really know what this separation involves.

I do not really have questions. I found the witness's statement a very powerful evocation. It is something we need to be mindful of in our final report.

I thank Deputy Lahart for that contribution. I thank Dr. Hartney, Professor O'Neill and Dr. McDonagh for coming to our committee meeting here today and for engaging with us. It was definitely very powerful evidence and there were very powerful questions and answers. We very much appreciate the witnesses' time. Every one of you has lots of commitments and lots of things to do. We appreciate the witnesses coming here today. We will suspend the committee until 7 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 12.51 p.m. and resumed at 7.09 p.m.
Barr
Roinn