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Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2023

Disability Services: Discussion

We are joined by representatives of Down Syndrome Cork, Down Syndrome Carlow and the West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group. I welcome them to the meeting and we look forward to engaging with them. Many members are attending online, so there will some in the room and others online.

I will take us through some housekeeping matters. I advise anyone who is attending online via MS Teams that its chat function should only be used to make us aware of technical issues or urgent matters and not to make general statements or comments during the meeting. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit anyone who is not adhering to this requirement to ask questions. I ask members who partake via MS Teams that, prior to making their contributions, they confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

In advance of inviting our guests to deliver their opening statements, I wish to advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. For witnesses who are participating from the committee room, they are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses who are participating virtually, I must point out that there is uncertainty over whether parliamentary privilege applies to evidence given from a location outside the parliamentary precincts of Leinster House.

We will give each group five minutes of speaking time, after which we will open the floor to questions from members. That completes our housekeeping.

I invite Ms Steinmetz to make her opening statement.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I thank committee members for the invitation to today's meeting. I am a member of the management committee of Down Syndrome Cork and, more importantly, parent to Noah, who is 11 years old and has Down's syndrome. Noah is currently in fourth class in a mainstream primary school. The feedback from his school is that he is a kind, loving and very social little boy, he has a strong work ethic and his bright and bubbly personality adds so much to his class and school. Noah has an intellectual disability and profound speech delay. He has low muscle tone and needs speech therapy, physiotherapy and occupational therapy to achieve his full potential at school.

At the age of six, Noah was referred from early intervention services to community services. We were advised at the time that there was a three-year waiting list. As of now, at 11 years old, Noah has never had speech therapy through disability or community services. He is not alone. A total of 65% of respondents to a 2021 Down Syndrome Ireland survey reported that they had received zero speech and language therapy sessions. In addition, 87% had received zero occupational therapy support and 70% had received zero physiotherapy in the previous year.

Article 25 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD, sets out that states parties shall provide "those health services needed by persons with disabilities specifically because of their disabilities, including early identification and intervention as appropriate, and services designed to minimize and prevent further disabilities". Therapies for children with Down's syndrome clearly come under this provision.

As Noah's mum, I gave up a successful career to care for him and, in effect, provide him with the one-to-one services he needs. I have had to learn how to help his speech and meet his physiotherapy and occupational therapy needs. For us, as for so many parents of children like Noah, Down Syndrome Cork has been our only reliable source of support. It is a parent-led charity organisation that is part of the Down Syndrome Ireland charity group. Our motto is "Share the Journey". Unfortunately, for all our members, the journey when it comes to access to disability services is one of constant worry, uncertainty, inadequate support and endless struggle.

For example, it has always been important to us that Noah be educated in the community in which he lives. With that in mind, he attends a local mainstream school. As he is in fourth class, we are now looking towards secondary education. We can see that as school gets more difficult, the academic gap is widening. Noah needs specific supports to help him to move at his own pace at school. Our first requirement was to have a psychological assessment of needs to assess his level of ability for secondary school. Again, we were let down. There was no option for us to avail of the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and, therefore, we had to go privately at a cost of €750 for assessment. Since the assessment, I have visited or contacted every secondary school in our area. I have not been able to find a suitable mainstream secondary option that can provide the support Noah needs. Special education has been recommended and we have an excellent special education secondary school in our area. However, it is completely oversubscribed and there are simply no spaces for children coming from mainstream school. There is no support, no information, no contact and no transition plan for my son. There is simply nowhere to go.

Our children have proved they have so much potential to achieve at school, follow an educational path that leads them to meaningful employment and be able to contribute to society. Down Syndrome Cork has been steadily building our own capability over the past 40 years to enable our children to communicate, learn and ultimately gain employment. We are a dynamic branch that is volunteer-led and with a professional approach to everything we do.

Speech therapy is the single most important early intervention in the life of a person with Down's syndrome. As mentioned, most of our children receive little to no speech and language therapy intervention from the services. However, we have created a speech and language therapy service for which there are no waiting lists. This is only possible through constant parent-led fundraising, for which we receive no State support or subvention.

Our Field of Dreams initiative is a wonderful example of what financial support, State support and appropriate management can achieve. In 2014, Down Syndrome Cork recognised the need for specific educational and employment support for our adult children. With support from the Munster Agricultural Society and Cork Education and Training Board, as well as huge support from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, we have built a social farming and further education facility for people with Down's syndrome. Currently, we have 51 students on site every week on our campus receiving bespoke educational programmes. The programmes at the Field of Dreams facility have been a tremendous success, with 16 out of 18 graduates securing employment. Last year, Down Syndrome Cork also launched an employment programme based at our charity shop in the city. Through this initiative, we have been able to provide 12 adults with paid meaningful part-time work under a pilot project that is being replicated by Down Syndrome Ireland.

Down Syndrome Cork has proved that with the right support we can deliver a sustainable model that delivers life-changing results for our members. However, as parents, we cannot continue to do it alone. We are asking for financial support for the services we provide and that our children have co-ordinated and guaranteed timely access to multidisciplinary healthcare and educational services.

I thank Ms Steinmetz. I expect there will be a lot of questions from members. We will take all the opening statements first and then open the floor. The next speaker is Ms Moran from Down Syndrome Carlow.

Ms Lucy Moran

I thank committee members for inviting us to address them today. We are a parent group of children with Down's syndrome based in Carlow. For the past three years, our children have not received the therapeutic services, namely, speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy, that are essential to help them reach their full potential and improve their quality of life. The HSE has forgotten about them.

Each year in Ireland, one in 500 children is born with Down's syndrome. Early diagnosis means parents do not have to wait for their children to start showing developmental delays. We have the opportunity to provide targeted therapy from birth. Research has suggested that early intervention for infants and toddlers with Down's syndrome is critical in achieving developmental milestones. Intensive early intervention may even be related to enhanced brain development. Indeed, newborn infants with Down's syndrome resemble all infants in their initial learning and memory abilities. However, without early intervention, they will often fall significantly behind in what they can achieve. Early intervention can help children with Down's syndrome to achieve greater independence, improve their communication skills and improve their motor skills. Early intervention can also help to prevent or delay the onset of some of the health problems associated with Down's syndrome.

As a group, we surveyed our local families in June 2022. The results showed that more than 30% of our children had not received speech therapy in over three years. Of the 52% of members' children who had received speech therapy in the past five years, three quarters had only one or two visits with a therapist. A research team in University College Cork, UCC, has recommended speech therapy on a weekly basis for all children with Down's syndrome, with some children needing more than this. The average number of sessions reported does not in any way approximate the intervention intensity specified in evidence-based interventions. Limited service for all ages has detrimental implications for people with Down's syndrome and our negligible adult service is in breach of human rights. Targeted, strategic investment is needed to allow practice to be aligned with best evidence, support and treat people with Down's syndrome effectively and allow them to reach their maximum potential and exercise their right to communicate.

If speech and language intervention is not provided for people with Down's syndrome, this can result in an accumulation of difficulties that can become chronic and lead to reduced potential, poor social skills, behavioural problems, emotional difficulties, literacy disadvantage and mental illness. Furthermore, the impact on education, where there is no early intervention, is catastrophic for our children. Article 24(1) of the CRPD states: "States Parties recognize the right of persons with disabilities to education." States parties should operate with "a view to realizing this right without discrimination and on the basis of equal opportunity". Our children are not entering education on a level playing field due to the lack of services.

If speech and language intervention is not provided for people with Down's syndrome, itncan result in an accumulation of difficulties that can become chronic and lead to reduced potential, poor social skills, behavioural problems, emotional difficulties, literacy disadvantage and mental illness. Furthermore, the impact of a lack of early intervention on our childreneducation with no early intervention for our children is catastrophic. Article 24(1)/4 of the UNCRPD says the States Parties recognize the right of persons with disabilities to education. With a view to realizing this right without discrimination and on the basis of equal opportunity. Our children are not entering education on a level playing field due to this lack of services.

Article 25(b) of the CRPD stipulates that states parties shall: "Provide those health services needed by persons with disabilities specifically because of their disabilities, including early identification and intervention as appropriate, and services designed to minimize and prevent further disabilities, including among children and older persons." This is not happening. Our children have been totally forgotten.

I want to tell the committee members about Joey, who is 14 years old and has Down's syndrome, autism, arthritis, a moderate intellectual delay and is non-verbal. Joey was a cardiac baby and was operated on at ten weeks old. He came home at 17 weeks and remained on oxygen until he was ten months old. He did two years in mainstream primary school and now happily attends St. Laserian's Special School in Carlow. Joey communicates through sign, gestures and visuals. He can say "Uh, oh" when something is wrong, "Yes", "No", "chips" and "Daddy". At 13 and a half years old, he learned how to say "Mammy".

He only uses it when his mam walks into the room. He never uses it to gain attention or ask for help. With proper and consistent access to speech therapy over the years, could there have been a different outcome for Joey? His family continue to work on a "total communication system" for him without the guidance of a speech therapist.

Joey is not fully toilet trained and the progress that has been made has taken years and a great deal of effort. If occupational therapy intervention had been better, would this outcome have been better? His family continue to work on this without the help of an occupational therapist. Joey cannot dress himself, as he has not developed the proper skills to complete this task. Would this have been different with proper occupational therapy intervention over the years? He can undress, but struggles to do so. He cannot do buttons, zips or laces. He cannot put on his socks or shoes. Joey will not walk up the stairs unless he is instructed and assisted to do so. He will only descend the stairs on his bum. Would this have been a different outcome with regular physiotherapy intervention? He cannot pedal his bike. He cannot climb the steps of a slide in the playground.

Joey is one of many. Our children are not getting the services they need to move forward in life. As parents, we must fight for our children and the services they should receive. The lack of access to services also has a major impact on families. We are not trained therapists.

A letter sent from the children's disability network team, CDNT, manager this month confirmed that there were 23 clinical positions in Carlow, of which only nine had been filled. The HSE needs a complete overhaul of recruitment and retention of staff. A recent article in the Irish Examiner reads: "The HSE has paid €15.5m to private recruitment firms since 2020 but does not know how many staff have been hired as a result." Why is the HSE not recruiting the staff required to support our children? Why is the onboarding of staff taking so long? Why is statutory leave - maternity and parental - not considered in succession planning?

Ireland has three undergraduate SLT courses, with approximately 90 places available. How many of these graduates are taking roles in the public sector? How many are returning to further education? Have we considered expanding the number of places over the coming years to plan for the future of CDNT?

We stand before the committee today as a parent group of children with Down's syndrome, but our "You Forgot About Me" campaign is fighting for all children who are not getting the services they need. The HSE has forgotten about them. It should not have to be this difficult. We need action now. Our children have been forgotten and future children will continue to be forgotten about until this right to services becomes law.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

I thank committee members for their kind invitation to this meeting to discuss disability services. I am here with my husband, Barry, on behalf of the West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group. We have three children. Our youngest son is 12 years old and has Down's syndrome. Having a child born with Down's syndrome can be a very unexpected and daunting journey and nothing will quite prepare you for it. In addition, some of our children can be born with complicated medical needs, for example, complex heart defects, and this can take over your immediate attention. Every child born with Down's syndrome benefits from early intervention services like speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy. These services are then complemented by the services of clinical nurse specialists, social workers and psychologists as part of the multidisciplinary team approach.

The West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group was established in 2013 in Skibbereen, County Cork. Our aim is to provide support for our children with Down's syndrome and their parents, siblings and wider families. It was set up by parents who felt that we needed a local base, as our nearest branch of Down Syndrome Ireland was in Cork city, which is approximately 80 km away from Skibbereen and even further for our families who live farther west.

One area of need highlighted was and still remains speech and language therapy. As a group, we have sourced private speech and language therapy and have organised group activities that help with the social, physical, sensory and emotional well-being of our children. Our children, with their siblings, have got to enjoy activities such as horse riding, pottery, swimming, music and dance. These gatherings have given our parents opportunities to meet up, share experiences and, in turn, give support to one another. This is invaluable, as having someone with additional needs can be a lonely and vulnerable place. All help and support are truly needed and welcomed. We have been fortunate that Down Syndrome Cork has come on board with us and now provides a successful outreach speech and language therapy clinic in Skibbereen weekly.

In 2013, our local service provider, CoAction, entered into partnership with the HSE to provide services to children up to 18 years of age with complex needs, for example, intellectual disabilities, including children born with Down's syndrome, autism spectrum disorder, ASD, physical and sensory disabilities, and complex developmental delays. This new service was part of the national Progressing Disability Services project, with west Cork being one of the first areas in Ireland where it started. Our services changed a great deal following this changeover, mainly due to the workload of the therapists providing for an increased number of children with a complexity of needs. Assessment took a large proportion of their working time. This had a negative impact on families, as we had had an enviable level of services beforehand. Providing these services is a continuing challenge for our service.

As parents of children with Down's syndrome, we are faced with multiple challenges when meeting the needs of our children. These challenges can be in the form of what services we do or do not get, coupled with our experiences and our expectations of the services we are receiving. There are also greater financial outlays, as our children may require specialised footwear, clothing and even transportation. Paying for private assessments and therapy can be another financial concern for families. Furthermore, as our children go through the different ages, we depend more on the school system as our provider of services, from preschool right up to secondary level with the hope of progressing on to third level education. In a rural area like west Cork, we do not have special classes for children with Down's syndrome, so our children rely on limited resources within our mainstream schools with the guidance of our therapists, with varied levels of follow-up. There is a greater requirement for our families, parents and schools to carry out the therapy for our children.

We have worked hard to have our children be included the same as any of their peers. As this can be done with limited resources, committee members can only imagine what could be done within a pathway of services dedicated to children and adults with Down's syndrome.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. As Ms O'Donovan mentioned, her husband, Barry, is present. Ms Olivia Flanagan from Down Syndrome Carlow is also present. I assume that all of the witnesses are free to answer questions.

The speaking order of members is Senator Seery Kearney; Deputy Sherlock; Deputy Cairns; Senator O'Sullivan; and Senator McGreehan. If others attend the meeting, I will slot them in. Starting with Senator Seery Kearney, will she confirm that she is on the grounds of Leinster House?

Yes. My apologies. I am joining from my office because I am flying off to another meeting after speaking, but I will read today's transcript to ensure that I pick up everything that is needed.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I would like to say I am surprised by what they have shared, but I am not. I am horrified time and again by the number of children who are utterly let down in terms of the level of care and service they deserve and should be getting. Families must constantly fight for care and services for their children or provide them themselves.

Ms O'Donovan has summed up my thinking. If services can be provided on a small budget, what could be done with a larger one? It is not for the HSE's want of will and funding that these services are not in place.

I will ask each of the groups about a feature. Early after becoming a Senator, I sat with a family who had a baby of only a few weeks of age. I would have imagined that information would have come easily to families, with a wraparound provision of information on services and what would happen after having a baby. That was not the case with this particular family, though. I would be interested in hearing the witnesses' experiences in this regard. I have been working on how the State would do this differently.

In transitioning from primary school to secondary, has Ms Steinmetz had any involvement with SENOs? Has any of that come to her aid? If so, to what extent, or if not, why not?

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I will start with the question about the transition to school, because it was directed specifically to me. The short answer is "No". We have not been able to engage with a SENO in respect of the decision-making along the school journey. One of the main challenges for parents on our journey relates to managing transitions. Parents start with early intervention and explore our options for primary school, and we try to navigate what kinds of questions we should ask, what we should expect from our child's primary school and so on.

In our journey, Noah attended our local primary school, which his older sister had attended, so I knew the principal, and that school was supportive and helpful in setting up a plan for Noah that supports what he needs at school. We have been working together on that for years and we have worked with the principal and all the resource groups within Noah's primary school. He is doing well at his own pace, he is happy and it has been successful.

The challenge now, as we look towards secondary school, is that replicating that experience in secondary education is difficult to pin down. I contacted the SENO about issues such as technology support for Noah within school to help with communication, which is of great benefit for him. As for exploring the school journey, however, there is no clear path of communication for parents to get information. To be honest, it has involved me calling or turning up at schools and asking principals the questions I think are relevant. I thought all secondary schools provide the level 2 curriculum for children with a disability but that is not the case. The feedback from most schools is that they do not provide it or, if they are willing to do so, they have no experience in it. Many secondary schools do not want to meet us until sixth class, so they can see where Noah is at that point in his journey, but that is obviously too late for us to make a decision because we could end up with no place. The diagnosis from the assessment of Noah that I had carried out recommends special education and we have a fantastic special education secondary school in our community. In fact, we could walk to it from our home, so Noah would still be educated in his own community with the children with whom he has grown up in our neighbourhood, albeit in a different school, but the transition from mainstream to special education secondary is difficult because we do not fall into the priority list for places. We are trying to figure that out.

Ms Steinmetz's experience is, unfortunately, repeated throughout the country. Parents are reliant on the capacity and willingness of principals to engage with them and it is terribly unfair to put that burden on them.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I might add to a point Ms Moran made. One feature of Down's syndrome is it is diagnosed at birth, so we know from birth if our child has Down's syndrome. There are specific requirements every child with Down's syndrome has and these transitions will arise for every child with Down's syndrome. It would help if we could plan that journey, irrespective of the fact services are overburdened and there is poor access to the services. Even a path outlining who to contact at the end of this transition and the next one, where to go when we are looking towards secondary school and perhaps resource or support material that could be provided for parents would, in itself, be a great burden taken away from parents.

In my other question, that was what I was trying to come at. It is evident from birth that Down's syndrome is going to be a feature and that milestones will need to be planned for. In that context, there is a dearth of information and support.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

Our case is similar to Ms Steinmetz’s in that our son is in fifth class at the moment and he has had an amazing primary school education. Anything Jack has needed, the school has provided for despite very limited resources. In fact, he recently received an additional diagnosis of insulin-dependent diabetes, and the principal looked for more resources because there had been a review of his SNA allocation and the school had been told to get on with whatever resources it had, that is, to take them from someone else. Our worry now relates to what will happen as he goes forward to secondary school, and by this time next year we will have to have made the decision. Will going into an unknown environment undo the past seven years of his education? The pathway is not clear. How to make provision for assessments and so on is unknown because we cannot get hold of the service provider to say what we need. It is a bit uncertain.

It is very stressful for the family and has a wider impact than just on the specific child.

Ms Lucy Moran

The first part of the question concerned how much support parents get when they are first told their baby has Down's syndrome. Joey is 14, so it has been 14 years since we received that news. Back then, we were very well supported by a special care nurse who was our public nurse, and she advised us where to go to apply for this, that and the other, so we were well looked after in that regard. We also spent the first 17 weeks in hospital, so Down's syndrome kind of faded into the background and it was more about getting the child to have a life rather than handling his disability, which came later on.

Schoolwise, we had an intervention from the SENO early on when we were looking for a place for Joey. His special school takes both primary and secondary, so he has just moved over to the secondary side of the school and is now very happy in first year.

That is good news. I apologise that I need to leave for another meeting, but I will review the contributions in the Official Report.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I wanted to add something to what I said about the early days after a baby is born. I am a member of the parenting programme in Down Syndrome Cork. We have been trained such that if parents of a new baby are seeking advice or help on their journey, they can contact Parent Link through Down Syndrome Cork. I speak to new parents as a parent myself and, in general, they try to find their own way in their journey. They might get some information in the hospital but that depends on who they meet at the time. Moreover, if their child has health conditions, the parents are going to be more focused on the health condition first, with Down's syndrome coming second. I have had numerous conversations with parents who have contacted me because they do not know where else to go. We definitely have an opportunity, through the hospitals and through early intervention, to feed better information to new parents.

That is correct. It should not be down to the individual the parents meet. Rather, a universal response should kick in.

I thank our guests. All their work is extraordinary and I thank them for sharing it.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

We had a slightly different start to our journey with our child with Down's syndrome. Jack was born about two weeks early and was not diagnosed at birth. He was about 11 to 12 weeks old when he was diagnosed. He was born very healthy, and while he was a bit small, he had good muscle tone, so the doctors were not really looking for any issues. We were at home at about eight weeks and his older brother asked whether Jack had Down's syndrome. We said he just looked the way he did, although the question had kind of been in our heads. He then became a bit unwell after his first vaccinations with the GP. I work with the GP, so I went to her the following day. I sat there saying "Well" and she sat there saying "Well", and when I asked whether my child had Down's syndrome, she said she thought he did.

We went to the hospital that day purely because he was unwell and we met the paediatrician. She took bloods the following week and that is how we got a diagnosis, which we got on Wednesday. When we left the hospital, we were a bit shell shocked. We were not totally unprepared because Barry has a nephew with Down's syndrome so we were aware of some of the things that go with having a child with Down's syndrome. I rang my GP, who is also my boss, and told her that we have a diagnosis now. The following Monday, we had services in our kitchen. We were inundated with weekly services until 2013. We had two years of amazing services and then the changeover happened. We had a very different start to our journey, but thankfully our services were good at the start.

That was in the past and it seems to be getting worse, unfortunately.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

For any new parents coming into the system now, their experience is totally different from that of the parents here. My son Josh will be seven on Friday. Like Ms O’Donovan, we had a good start but in the past three and a half to four years, we have had nothing. I really feel sorry for any parent with a newborn baby, or even a one-year-old or two-year-old child. They have had no services and the future looks very bleak. Our children are suffering.

We are all dealing with various cases and people but it definitely seems that the services are getting worse rather than better.

I thank Senator Seery Kearney for that. She has to head off to another meeting, which is fine. We will now move on to Deputy Sherlock.

First of all, I am from Cork and I heartily welcome all our guests here today. These testimonies are the most impactful for us. When people tell their personal stories, it allows us to internalise it and see how we can drive on with solutions, which is what the witnesses are ultimately looking for from politicians.

I listened carefully to Ms Moran when she spoke about the recruitment costs. The figure of €15 million was provided on foot of a parliamentary question I tabled. Imagine what one could do with that money for a lot of families. I know that sounds like a simplistic thing to say on my behalf, but the HSE is paying recruitment companies to hire people and they are clearly not hiring them. They are not doing what they are supposed to be doing and €15 million of taxpayers' money is being used when we could be providing the services for people. It seems from our guests' experience that bespoke solutions can be tailored locally, depending on where a person is living or what part of the country he or she is from, to provide the services.

I am always tabling parliamentary questions because that is the tool of our trade in this House. I refer to CHO 4 - forgive me for not including other parts of the country - because Cork and Kerry are represented at this meeting. Looking at the top-line figures for waiting lists for CHO 4, which is the Cork-Kerry region, the number of children waiting for an initial speech and language assessment is over 1,200 and for initial therapy the figure is 1,700 children. People with Down's syndrome obviously come into those categories as well. Similarly, there are more than 2,000 children waiting for further therapy in the Cork-Kerry region and we are spending €15 million on recruitment companies. It is easy for us to blame the HSE but, at some stage, there needs to be a shift in Government policy to take ownership of the recruitment piece.

What is screaming out to me, based on cases in my constituency of Cork East and it being confirmed here by the witnesses, is the number of people waiting for speech and language therapy. It is absolutely frightening. It upsets me if a child cannot communicate to a parent. I am a dad of three kids. One thing we all as parents work on assiduously is getting the child to communicate with us because we want to know how the child is feeling. If that service is denied to a parent, that is something we need to work on. Similarly, ophthalmology is another area coming up on my radar in a big way. The number of children in Cork and Kerry waiting for ophthalmology services is 3,200. Whatever about everything else and the other ancillary issues and therapies, the ability to see and talk are two key for any parent. What can I do in the Cork region, or in my constituency, to try to assist that process?

The variation in the experience of the parents coming out of Cork University Maternity Hospital, CUMH, with their child is phenomenal and actually frightening. That is not a reflection on individuals. It is that there is no system-wide approach. I would have thought there would be universality in terms of protocols being put in place for every baby born and, obviously, that is not the case. Very often, it depends on the midwife who picks up on things. We all know of very experienced midwives who know mothers and the pattern of births and so on and so forth and who are very perceptive. I have heard of situations where the midwife was the key person in assisting the parents in where they need to go.

My question is simple. Is there something I should be doing now, as a Deputy in the Cork area, such as contacting CUMH as a starting point for future and existing parents? Do I need to pick up the phone and speak to the chief officer of the Cork-Kerry area for instance, or wherever? Do I need to say that he or she needs to sit down with Down Syndrome Ireland and talk about what is happening in Cork, that we need to start looking at this from birth through to education and the transitions that Senator Seery Kearney mentioned? Is there something more that I as a public representative can do to push the door open for parents and act as an intermediary, an interlocutor, or an advocate in the Cork-Kerry region, and to say that little changes here and additional services there would make a world of difference? That is what I would like to hear from our guests. I would demand it and be very happy to do that.

Our guests have heard all the politicians and the platitudes. They have heard it all before a million times. Following this meeting - in deference to our colleagues from Carlow and Kilkenny - I would have no qualms from a Cork-Kerry point of view about picking up the phone to the chief officer in the HSE to say that we need to get a meeting and start talking about access to services. I would be very happy to do so. I am sorry if I am ranting on a little bit but the testimony of our guests is very compelling.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

It is a super question. I am thinking back to the point about transitions that was brought up. It starts with the hospital, which is step one. It is about support so that the hospital is on board to talk to us. Down Syndrome Cork, DSC, recently secured a meeting with CUMH to start conversations about how we can better engage with parents in a more consistent way at step one. It certainly starts there.

Who in CUMH is DSC talking to?

Ms Cara Steinmetz

The meeting will be on Friday. I will have to tell the Deputy exactly who the contact is after we have the meeting on Friday morning.

Is it with the clinical director of CUMH, Professor John Higgins?

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I presume so. Our head of services has a meeting in CUMH on Friday. I will tell the Deputy exactly who it is after the meeting.

If Professor Higgins, who is in charge of CUMH, is involved in that meeting, please let me know. I will contact him and see if we can get something going. I am sorry for interrupting.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

That is okay. I will take note of that. Step two is looking at all the transition phases. One has the hospital first and then primary childcare, which is pre-school level. Then there is the Department of Education. We know that a child with Down's syndrome will, at the age of five, need a place in a primary school; an adapted curriculum; a special needs assistant, SNA; a resource teacher; and continued access to speech and language therapy, SLT, occupational therapy, OT, and physiotherapy. It does not matter which of our children we are discussing; they all need that.

When they get to age 12 they all need the same in a secondary school environment. Whether that is special education or mainstream the provision needs to be there for that child in the area where they live. We know that in advance.

Is Down Syndrome Ireland talking to the National Council for Special Education, NCSE?

Ms Cara Steinmetz

Down Syndrome Cork is trying to take this on board for its members. Ideally it would be-----

If the witness tells me that Down Syndrome Ireland are, at a national policy level, talking to the NCSE about the transitions we are discussing then I will be satisfied. If the answer is "no" then people like me could contact the NCSE. What I am finding in schools is a piecemeal, almost pernicious approach by the NCSE. Schools will get an allocation of half a person here and a quarter of a person there. This is how surreal it has become in this country. If Down Syndrome Ireland could talk to the NCSE and if people like us could push that along we might be able to open a door there as well.

That information should be trickled down to everyone, to all of the groups. It can happen sometimes that national bodies meet and it does not filter down.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

I would like to give an example of a transition that is causing problems in our locality at the moment. We have a little four and a half year old boy who has fought to be here. He is getting enrolled in mainstream school at the moment. The mainstream school that he is going to attend already has two children with Down's syndrome so they know what they are talking about and what resources are needed. The school has asked the parents for is a report from a speech and language therapist. This boy has never met a speech and language therapist. He is four and a half years of age and this is a barrier to education for him.

We are going backwards.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

As parents we rely on our school system to be the service provider. There is small direction at the start but then the follow up is just very varied. It is exhausting for us as parents, to be the chaser, constantly on the phone. It is endless. Unfortunately, we might have to go back to an old fashioned, diagnosis-based, provider of services. We have Down Syndrome Ireland branches in most of our counties. I cannot understand why they cannot see that our children's need are very tailored but they are very direct. We know that they need x, y and z. A diagnosis of Down's syndrome is autofill. All these things are necessary no matter what level the child is at. They need it from birth to when they die, basically. They need it continuously. Just because they meet milestones like 12 or 18 does not mean it stops. The opportunity to use branches like Down Syndrome Cork and Down Syndrome Kerry, which have done amazing work, is being missed but that is selfishly in our little corner.

Are parents getting lost in the Children Disability Network Teams?

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

It is bananas. We do not even know who our therapists are because they move and change and are not replaced. When we met our occupational therapist she was pregnant. She went on maternity leave and was never seen by anyone. She has come back, after lockdown, and we got a text to say that she would be gone on maternity leave again and there will not be a replacement. Our child will go to secondary school in September 2024 and his clinical nurse specialist, who is his key worker, was not aware of when that was happening. She said she would put him down for a course in September because there might be occupational therapy then. It is just bananas. Unfortunately, there is money haemorrhaging into the system but it is frightening how inappropriately it is being used. That being said, we are very thankful we have services because some areas do not have them. However, the services are not managed effectively. They do not provide value for money and there is no end of money available.

It is really wrong when they do not replace people, particularly those on maternity leave. That specifically affects women and it makes them feel guilty. There is almost a resentment even though people do not want to feel like that but it is just human nature. This is really wrong. Instead of being angry at the system people are becoming angry at the staff. There are so many things wrong in it but that is one that is particularly bad.

We now have the creation of the CDNTs and the primary care teams and all of this new policy. It seems to me that under the old system using a provider like Down Syndrome Ireland seemed to reach the child or person a lot quicker than is happening now. Even if one factors Covid and lockdown out of the equation there seemed to be a greater reach or at least there was more connection between parents and the service under the old system. That is the impression I have.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

It was more locally based as well.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

To reiterate Noah's experience, since we left early intervention he has never had speech and language therapy from community services. He is now 11 years old. He has not had a single session.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

We are in the same boat. We find that the CDNTs are not fit for purpose. Our children are not getting services. We have never had an appointment through them. It is a battle to even find out who one's keyworker is in a CDNT, never mind ask for or get services. One can have better luck with primary care but it can be very sporadic.

Ms Lucy Moran

It was always the case that he who shouted loudest got the most service. The minute I finished a block of appointments I would be on the phone again inquiring as to when I would be seen again. We do not have a speech therapist at the moment and I have two non-verbal boys.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for being willing to share their experiences. Regrettably, PDS and CDNTs are failing children and families every day. Ultimately, the witnesses should not have to come before this committee to share their stories. I am really familiar with the incredible work of West Cork Down Syndrome Support and Down Syndrome Cork and I have no doubt about the importance of Down Syndrome Carlow. As public representatives, we know that parents of children with disabilities are among the most exhausted and at the end-of-their-tether people we meet in our work. People should not have to come time and again and tell committees about these issues. It should not be that way.

It is important to say at this committee and the Joint Committee on Disability Matters, of which several of us are also members, that each of the witnesses' children and all the children they represent have a right to proper health care. They have a right to education and to be members of their community and to live full lives. It is essential to never overlook that point. The children may need additional supports or considerations but these are not optional extras or charitable interventions. They are entitlements for those children under international law.

My first question is for West Cork Down Syndrome Support. The most standout and worrying aspect of the group's opening statement is what was said about services in west Cork and how they have gotten worse under progressing disability services. We know from the disability matters committee that none of the CDNTs in the entire country is fully staffed. I made the point previously that if we were fielding a team for the Irish rugby team and there were not enough players we would not call it a team. The plan was to overhaul supports and healthcare for children so will the witnesses elaborate on that point with examples? It does not have to be the witnesses' own family, it can be other families within West Cork Down Syndrome Support. It would allow the committee to understand the true, on-the-ground impact of that for people.

From the witnesses' perspective, what needs to change? The parents are the experts in what their children need. What do the Government and the HSE need to do differently?

Also, because there are different groups here could West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group in particular elaborate on the challenges in a rural area like west Cork? The witness spoke about proximity to the city to access speech and language therapy and how it is an hour and a half from where they are based, and a person needs to add an hour on to that if they are from the Mizen or Castletownbere.

Ms. O'Donovan also mentioned the fact there is no special school in the entire Cork South-West constituency. I have a question for Down Syndrome Cork. They very clearly articulated that speech and language therapy is the most important early intervention in the life of a person with Down's syndrome, and the utter failure of the State to provide that vital service. As was highlighted, 65% of respondents to the Down Syndrome Ireland survey have never received speech and language therapy. Down Syndrome Cork, in contrast, have created a speech and language therapy service in which there are no waiting lists. This service is only possible through the fundraising of parents but if we could put that aside for a moment, the point I am focusing on is what is Down Syndrome Cork doing differently that means it has no waiting lists while the HSE has disgracefully long waiting lists? The HSE attended the Joint Committee on Disability Matters last week regarding those waiting lists and they always say is that it comes down to staffing and that they are doing all of this recruitment and spending all of this money on recruitment. At the end of the day there are different ways this could be treated in terms of how the HSE approaches it and it is very obvious to me that it is like, "We are trying, we are trying, we are ticking boxes all of the time", but if it was really trying and if it was treated as more of an emergency like during Covid-19 and at different times like that, something could be done. We saw that when the HSE wants to move mountains for something it can. It is really annoying when we have those conversations at the disability committee when we are constantly met with "staff, staff, staff". Could Down Syndrome Cork highlight how they can do this without waiting lists? I know it is on a different scale but we all know that if the HSE really wanted to it could and to hear from an organisation that is doing it through fundraising would be really helpful for us as a committee.

On the funding issue, Down Syndrome Ireland clearly has a really successful model in that vein that is providing a much-needed service. What has happened when it has approached the Government and HSE to seek funding? They have to be able to see the success of the service and I am wondering what it gets in relation to support.

My final point is on the issues of education and the transition from primary to secondary. We spoke about this at length at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters also. It is kind of incredible that there is not a count of how many there are in special classes, in special schools, and in autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes, in primary school to prepare for that in relation to secondary school. It is incredible that basic forward planning is not being done. Could members of the committee speak to that, because in any report we do if we hear from witnesses it helps us to reiterate and re-highlight that point.

In terms of home tuition, perhaps Down Syndrome Cork or Down Syndrome Carlow could answer if it is the case that children with Down's syndrome who previously could access home tuition hours are now unable to? I thank the Chair.

I thank the Deputy. There were a few questions, particularly for West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group, so we will start with Ms O'Donovan and Mr. O'Donovan and then go to Ms Steinmetz and then there was a lot there that is relevant to Down Syndrome Carlow.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

I thank Deputy Cairns. Going back to our group, we are a small group of 17 families and our children are aged between three and 16. A lot of our families have the same issues. They do not know who their team is. Those who shout the loudest get the services. When people get the services they are of great quality but they only get blocks of services. By the time a person gets back to thinking about when they last saw those people they have forgotten who they are. There is no follow-up. Once a person is in the school system that takes over. It is very hard because they are so busy with learning. There is no clear provision made. A lot of our kids have not seen anyone in the three years since lockdown. Lots of people have not seen anyone at all for maybe a full year. They have failed to provide a service for the children. It is not as if the team is not there. The team is there but is broken into slots of days and when someone rings for an appointment they might get one in three weeks' time, and then they get a block. That might suit some but our children need services all of the time.

There is a report recommendation on weekly speech therapy for everyone with Down's syndrome. Our children are all unique but they really progress with services on a regular basis. Unfortunately in the past few years a lot of our children have regressed and we will never again get that ability to progress back. We are fortunate to have private speech therapy through Down Syndrome Cork in Skibbereen so at least the kids do not have to travel. Can one imagine sitting in the car for an hour and a half, maybe two hours, getting there for a 40-minute slot? Number one, it is exhausting for the parents plus if they have other children they are missing out. It is not just the child who is missing out. Cork is large and we are that bit further west. We are different and we do not have access to extracurricular things that maybe people in cities have. We are slightly on the back foot but we continue to try to progress.

Does Mr. O'Donovan want to come in?

Mr. Barry O'Donovan

No, I am okay.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

The question for me was about speech and language therapy and how we have managed to ensure we have no waiting lists. It has been really tough, if I am honest. We know how many members we have. We have 400 members in Down Syndrome Cork and we know the age groups of the various members so we have tailored our speech and language therapy programme. For example, someone gets a block of six sessions for their child and within that six sessions there is a specific programme that they will work on and the speech therapist will share the notes of that with them. They are also willing to share it with the school and they give very proactive exercises that can be done with the child at home that fall into the goals of the block of six sessions. We spread that to as many children who need it as we can.

In addition, we do speech and language therapy camps. We mentioned the Field of Dreams earlier which we are so lucky to have and it is a fantastic facility. It has been through a partnership with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine that we could build that site. We use it for speech and language therapy camps at the weekends where we bring a group of children who are at the same level and the same age and can benefit from the group session. We do summer camps and use different creative approaches as opposed to just one-on-one speech therapy with all of the children in our membership. It has worked very well. Nobody will get weekly speech therapy for the entire year but they will get blocks of six and then they will have activities they can work with while they wait for their next block. It has been very successful.

It is not free for parents, they pay for it, but the fundraising we do in Down Syndrome Cork pays for the therapists, who are amazing. We have incredible speech and language therapists who are specialised in children with Down's syndrome, which is very beneficial to our kids and to our older groups also. We try to use as much of that fundraising as possible to subsidise the speech and language therapy sessions so that it is not too expensive for parents.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

Can I add one thing? Our service provider has huge problems with the recruitment and retention of staff because they are a section 39 organisation and cannot compete with therapists who are coming out, qualified, and nearly being poached by the HSE. They get their experience through these organisations and they then just go on. Why would they not? They might be doing similar work but they get a different package of terms and conditions. Until there is parity among people who work within disability services, services providers like ours will not be able to compete. Our disability sector is so regulated and governed that a lot of their work is paperwork. A child might be seen for 30 minutes but that is an hour of work because they are preparing, then writing up reports and making sure they have ticked all the boxes and crossed all the t's. The level of governance is fantastic going forward so it takes from the working time.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

That is an important point. One of our challenges is that speech and language therapy through Down Syndrome Cork is dependent on fundraising. We never know year to year how much money we will have, therefore it is difficult to build a sustainable model. If you build this specialised group of speech and language therapists, which we are so dependent on, in addition to being dependent on fundraising, and they leave to go to the HSE, it is difficult to sustain it.

It was quite powerful when Ms O'Donovan was speaking about the difference in services before 2013. Most of the issues in terms of waiting lists etc. are coming down to the progressing disability services, PDS, plan and the issues with children's disability network teams, CDNTs. Different professionals in the industry and different speech and language therapists seem to have different views. At this stage, does PDS just need to be scrapped? Are we so far in that we need to keep pursuing this and make it work? Do the witnesses feel there is hope for it working at this stage or do they think going back to the previous model is better? I hear different things from different professionals in the field. I do not hear much from families in terms of an opinion on that. I do not expect the witnesses to know but I am curious to hear what they think.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

Selfishly, we would like to go back.

I am conscious that Ms Flanagan and Ms Moran did not come in on any of that. Do they wish to add anything?

Ms Lucy Moran

For me, Joey is 14 now, so if we scrap PDS and CDNT he will never be seen by anybody before he moves into adult services. The model for the CDNT looks great on paper but the roll-out in County Carlow has been an absolute disaster. There are nine clinicians employed by the CDNT in County Carlow at the moment but there are 23 allocated posts. Retention and recruitment of staff have been major issues there. I am not sure if I would like to go back to the way it was. I would just like it to be fixed. Please.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

The theory of keeping our children in the community is important. It is a difficult question for parents to answer. I always thought, from the day Noah was born, that one of the most important things for us would be that he grows up in our neighbourhood and community and that people know him. I feel, for example, based on his experience in mainstream school, the other boys in his class know him and know how to speak to him if they meet him in the street, at the bus stop or in the local shop. He is safer in a community where people understand how to engage with him. That has taken a lot of work with the school and you meet other parents at the school gate and try to create a normalised environment for the parents as well so they are comfortable communicating with a child that has a communication issue and then their children learn the same thing. When you take them out of that environment, over time the kids are less confident interacting with your child, therefore they become less and less a part of the community. The theory is an exception; we would like it to work, it is just not proving successful on the ground.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

This is all I know. My son is only turning seven. I do not know anything other than primary care and CDNT. Our experience has not been favourable.

I call Senator Ned O'Sullivan. Will you please confirm that you are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex?

I am in my office in Leinster House. I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming before the committee. They have come from various distances; the people from west Cork, like me, and County Kerry have the longest-distance journey to make. The witnesses are all very committed. I am full of admiration for them and the calm, dispassionate way in which they have brought the situation they deal with daily to the committee. I hope it will be worthwhile for the witnesses to be here and that the committee may be able to take up at least some of the key issues they have raised. Under the chairmanship of our esteemed Chairman, we may perhaps proceed and progress things. Like Deputy Sherlock, I am more familiar with the medical scenario in counties Cork and Kerry overall. I am conscious of the queues and bottlenecks in assessment and treatment for a wide range of issues including speech therapy, ophthalmology and dental services. It is grossly unfair that young children with Down's syndrome should not, at the very least, be treated equally and should be fast-forwarded or prioritised, which is something we must examine. I support the Government, but every Government will say it has put in the resources, funding and quite probably it has. It is the same old story; the money goes in at one end and by the time it gets down to the end user and the person in need, it seems to have dissipated and there are huge time delays. I am conscious of what was said about treatment in blocks, which was very well presented. When it is going on, it is excellent, but that means there are peaks and valleys. In any form of medical service that is not a good idea.

I have family connections with Down's syndrome and I have family members working in the Cork area in the delivery of medical services, either in general medicine or neuro consultancy and that kind of thing. I have a fair idea of the general picture in Munster. To what extent are people disadvantaged in areas like west Cork or perhaps counties Donegal or Sligo, as opposed to major urban centres? I had sympathy for the spokeswoman for the west Cork area because on top of all the other difficulties there is the distance factor, which, as a rural man, I am familiar with. I assume, like everything else, early intervention and early assistance are far more valuable than ongoing assistance. That seems to be part of the problem. In general, does it get easier as the children get older, into their late teens and beyond? Are the requirements for assistance ongoing to the same extent or does it become sort of easier? I am not trying to suggest for one second that it is easy at any stage. God knows, the load parents like the witnesses have taken on is not easy. They are to be congratulated for taking that road and going on this journey for the sake of their children. I could go on but many of the questions I wanted to ask have already been raised, particularly by Deputy Sherlock. I wish the witnesses well and give them an undertaking that I will take away what they have said. I am on a learning curve, like many others. The presentations were all very coherent and impressive. I will work on them with the Chair of the committee to see if we can make progress.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

It does get easier but that is because work is put in at the early intervention stage. It stands to the child going forward. You could learn a lot from that. Put all that in but it has to continue. You cannot just stop. I am for that; early intervention is essential. As parents, you get a bit more confident that you can manage things. What happens then is you start getting into different territories with other medical issues that may crop up. For example, our son was diagnosed with insulin-dependent diabetes. He was predisposed to it because he has Down's syndrome. Other kids we know of have Down's syndrome-associated arthritis, like juvenile arthritis. That brings another different slant to it. Many children have thyroid issues and things like that. No service can help you juggle all those balls. Early intervention and provision of that early are good but it must continue all the time.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

The early intervention is not happening now. That is going to lead to a detrimental impact on our young children. As I say, Josh has not had speech and language therapy, SLT, since he was three and he is now almost seven. He is going to need intensive speech and language therapy and it is not going to be available. I am being realistic when I say it is not going to be available. I would love it to be available but the reality is that it is not. He has already been disadvantaged because he is not able to access early intervention SLT.

There is a range of experiences even here. We have heard from some people who had good early intervention.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

Cork is providing SLT through the branch but the HSE is not providing SLT, and that is across the board.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

We are fundraising for that.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

Yes, and that is fantastic, but we are a small branch and we cannot fundraise.

It is a new branch too.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

We have a lot of small children. We could not fundraise for that. In any case, let us be clear: the HSE is not providing services for our children.

Mr. Barry O'Donovan

I want to go back to the question from Senator O'Sullivan about distance. One of the reasons we started up West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group was to bring the services closer to our children in west Cork. When we first started our journey with Jack, we were an hour and a half driving to Blackpool in Cork to get speech and language therapy for him. It was an hour and a half up, a 40-minute slot and an hour and a half home. I am a dairy farmer and my wife is a practice nurse. It was a full half-day out of our working life to take Jack to one service, to just one thing. I and another guy said we would try to do something about it. We started up the West Cork Down Syndrome Support Group and we started trying to get services ourselves. We were getting the services on a Saturday morning and on a Saturday evening for speech and language. Basically, however, we had to go back to the fundraising side again. We were providing the service to the families provided they helped out with fundraising, for example, through the Tour de Munster cycle and we do a cycle called the Mizen Looper. We provide the moneys to pay for those services and to try to get people who provide speech and language therapy to come from Cork city down to Skibbereen. It is impossible. One of the guys who is furthest out is Tim Murnane, who lives in Toormore with his wife, Anne. For them to come into Skibbereen takes 40 minutes and to drive from Skibbereen with their son Tadhg is another hour and 40 minutes again. They were spending three or four hours a day on the road to get a 40-minute service in Cork city. It was not worth it for us. That is why we set up this west Cork group.

To have services closer to home is what I would like to ask for here today.

I hear that loud and clear.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I want to comment on the other question about it getting easier when our children are older. The challenges change but the challenges continue when our kids are older. We have continuing transitions once they have completed secondary school, and we are then talking about post-primary training, access to employment and support from companies and businesses so we can find employment for our adults. That was the main reason that we created the Field of Dreams in Cork, because our adults did not have anywhere to go. We have different challenges later on down the line. Our children become more confident in themselves and have friendships and so on by then, but they are then confronted with different challenges that will come up.

I call Senator McGreehan. I ask the Senator to confirm she is on the grounds of Leinster House.

Yes, I am in my office in Leinster House. I thank the witnesses for their time this afternoon. It is very important to have the testimonies they have delivered. We all got a feel for their own personal circumstances and the very varied experiences they have all had. It is very important for us to hear those.

It is hugely concerning for me. Like other members of this committee, I am a member of the Committee on Disability Matters and, unfortunately, because of my experience on that committee, I am not at all surprised by the situation. It is a relentless situation, fighting for therapy, and as discussed, the person who shouts loudest, rings up the most or gets lucky, or whatever is the case, gets the service. Services should not be about luck but should be about providing care for the children.

I am personally very familiar with the incredible work of the Down's syndrome centre in the north east, which is based in Castleblayney, and also the Louth-Meath Down Syndrome Society, both of which are incredible organisations. There are fantastic fundraising drives every single year and we do the Neon Run and all of these other things for Down's syndrome. We do this without thinking to support families and to make sure they are getting services.

I would like to hear the witnesses’ views. I sometimes feel in this game that I am a bit paranoid or pessimistic. I sometimes feel that because Down Syndrome Ireland does such an incredible job, the HSE might subconsciously be abandoning or allowing Down's syndrome societies and branches to take over those therapies. It believes that people are getting something in the Down's syndrome branches, so the HSE does not have to see them. That is a very cynical view of mine but I would like to hear the opinion of the witnesses. I sometimes feel it is that way.

The witnesses discussed the services their branches provide. I am familiar with early learning, reading groups and adult literacy groups in my own region. Has it ever been discussed between the branches and the HSE with regard to doing service level agreements, and paying for and supporting the efficiency that these groups have created within their own organisations, with the HSE outsourcing services to these organisations because they are delivering? As one of the testimonies stated, these organisations do not have any waiting lists, and they have worked hard to get those waiting lists down.

Last week at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters, we had members of the HSE disability services before us. In any industry, if it cannot employ people and cannot deliver a service because it does not have the people, the industry would undertake research and undertake a job of work. I asked why we are not filling our teams and why we are not filling these posts. The HSE said it is doing a lot of work on pay, facilities and career structure. Have the witnesses seen that on the ground? I cannot see it on the ground. I cannot see the extra effort the HSE says it is making actually come to fruition.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

Each branch in Down Syndrome Ireland is hugely different. Ms Moran and I are in the Carlow branch and we are a very small branch in comparison to the Cork branch, which is a massive branch. They can provide the services to their families whereas we cannot provide the services. We are heavily dependent on the HSE providing those services. Down Syndrome Ireland is not providing the services. It is the county branch itself that is providing any services, if at all. We are heavily dependent on the HSE and our children are not getting services from the HSE. We are extra disadvantaged because we are a small branch.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

It might need to be looked at. The HSE, with all this funding, should look into channelling the money down the route of using the branches as the service provider.

That would be my selfish opinion.

Ms Cara Steinmetz

There is a perception that because the branches are larger or depending on the size of the branch, the services provided are impacted, but it is the parents who are doing the fundraising. I have seen grandmothers on bikes doing the Tour de Munster, which is a 600 km cycle around Munster and Kerry. It is amazing. Parents are bucket-shaking and raising money to pay for speech therapy.

Senator McGreehan made the point about the subconscious thought process suggesting that kids with Down's syndrome have their local branch so should not be prioritised. That would be outrageous because we are extremely dependent on the HSE for services. To Ms O’Donovan’s point, if the idea is to have speech therapists in the branches and the opportunity to build specialised services in the branches, let us fund and support them to do it in a specialised manner through the branches across the country. That is a potential solution we could roll out nationwide so everybody gets the same type of service. That is a funding question.

I thank the witnesses and apologise for not being here for the contributions at the beginning. I am splitting my time between this and another committee I am on which sits at the exact same time, unfortunately. I have read the submissions and opening statements.

Much of my work over the years has been focused on neurodivergence and autism so my insights and understanding of the difficulties and journeys of people with children and family members with Down's syndrome are lacking. Excuse my ignorance if I ask some very basic questions.

A question following on from that final point is around the preferred model being centralised or decentralised to a county branch. Would people prefer that the funding be given to branches and specialised services within communities or would the preferred option be that the State address systems and delays and deliver it at a State-level?

Ms Olivia Flanagan

If the funding was given to branches, the problem would still exist in that there are no SLTs available. We can have all the funding but cannot access SLTs.

The witnesses referred to increasing the number of places in training. Is the biggest barrier the number of people training to be SLTs?

Ms Olivia Flanagan

It seems to be. We put a lot of research into our statement and it seems to be the barrier. If there are 90 people every year, where are they going? That is the question that needs to be asked. Are they going overseas or into private practice? If they are going into private-----

So there is no real analysis yet of where that cohort of new trainees each year is going.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

No.

Ms Lucy Moran

We have spoken to University College Cork, UCC, and they say they could fill their classrooms five times over with the number of applicants they are getting.

The applicants are there; it is the places that are not.

Ms Lucy Moran

Yes, and the number of applicants is driving up the points.

Is there a lack of universities offering the course?

Ms Lucy Moran

There are three. We have UCC, University of Galway and Trinity College Dublin, I am pretty sure.

There are probably deals within Dublin universities then for them not to offer the courses. Are there?

Ms Olivia Flanagan

I do not know.

Sometimes University College Dublin does veterinary and Trinity does dentistry. I wonder if there is a reason some of the other universities have not got them. Sometimes there are internal agreements, which might be something to look at in terms of opening up spaces in other universities.

Ms Lucy Moran

Apparently, one issue is that a student studying speech therapy needs a placement so they are observed while practising before getting fully qualified. There are not enough speech therapists in practice to allow the likes of UCC to take in more students because they have nobody to mentor them.

It is the oversight piece.

Ms Lucy Moran

It is a vicious circle.

It is okay if the witnesses cannot answer these questions. If there are not enough people, is it because we cannot locate them all because some of them are private?

Ms Olivia Flanagan

I do not know. It is difficult.

Ms Lucy Moran

Some people are going into the hospitals, others are going in to deal with people with brain injuries, people in nursing homes or stroke victims. I often wonder if speech therapists were trained as paediatric speech therapists, whether the course would be shorter and we would get them out quicker.

So they are not specialising in any particular area.

Ms Lucy Moran

Exactly.

Some of my other questions concern development and early intervention. Early intervention and ongoing support will produce better outcomes for people and their families, especially heading into adulthood. Will the witnesses elaborate on the impacts it can have beyond the physical? There is co-morbidity when we talk about arthritis, diabetes and other conditions that people with Down’s syndrome may be more exposed to.

I wonder about the social element and the independence element. Many people enter intimate relationships or like to go to their local pub. There are plenty of Down's syndrome people in Killinarden in the pub on the weekend watching football and engaging in their communities. It is positive when people are engaged in education in their community. On a social, psychological and emotional level, how does the lack of intervention and services impact on people's ability to live a fuller life in adulthood and want to engage in their communities? Does it cause isolation among people who do not get services at the right time?

Ms Lucy Moran

Absolutely. For us, Joey is 14 and non-verbal. Therefore, his friendships will always be one-sided, perhaps. I do not know the right word for it. He lives in the moment and is only concerned about what is happening now so is very happy but for his adulthood I will be his friend.

Maybe Ms Steinmetz, Ms O'Donovan or somebody from the Cork side can answer my final question because their membership is so much bigger. I have worked as a community worker with Traveller families over the years who really struggled when they had kids with additional needs, including Down's syndrome. What are the outcomes and extra layer of difficulties for a family coming from low levels of educational attainment in the parents, maybe low literacy, who find it harder to navigate the system that is difficult even for those with know-how, in terms of the HSE and stuff? Is there analysis or understanding of the extra difficulties for minority, migrant or Traveller families or families with poor employment and education outcomes? What are the difficulties for them when accessing services?

Ms Cara Steinmetz

I do not have access to data but can speak anecdotally. In the journey we have all been on with our children, we are very dependent on the parents to do many therapies at home, which requires, in many cases, people giving up their job to stay at home with a child. That is the loss of an income in the family. We are forced to pay for private therapies because we do not get access to the necessary therapies through the HSE. Without access to funds, people do not get the therapies or what they need for their child.

There is also a huge social aspect. As a parent, when your child is involved in the community, you are educating other parents and the people around you. You are at the school gate talking to people, helping them understand your child better. That takes social skills as a parent. There is a diverse array of challenges for people from minority backgrounds, who speak a different language and do not have the ability to stay at home with their child. The list is endless. It is a huge challenge.

On the question Ms Moran answered and on which she spoke openly before, when a child does not get access to occupational therapy in the early stage of their lives, there are day-to-day functions they struggle with, which impacts confidence and the ability to integrate into society. Even if you are out and want to put your coat on, these basic abilities need to be trained. All of our kids have low muscle tone. It adds to confidence as they learn to do what everybody around them can do. Those therapies are crucial for that and, therefore, that impacts integration and socialisation.

I thank Ms Moran. I have one final question, if I have time.

Of course.

It is in relation to young people entering into adulthood who want to go on to third level or further education. Trinity has a specific programme for people with Down's syndrome. I wonder is there much access in other places in the country, such as west Cork, that do that style of college education for people with Down's syndrome.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

UCC runs a course.

That is probably it. It is probably those two big universities.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

We have the South East Technological University, SETU, in Carlow but there are no college places or courses open for our children.

I thank Ms O'Donovan and Ms Flanagan for that.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

One comment about social integration I would make is that much of the wider community nearly pity us for having a child with Down's syndrome. We struggle every day to meet the challenges and the needs of our children but we have a great life as well. One should not take that away from us at all. Thankfully, that old-fashioned pity is disappearing, but there are still some areas of social integration that will never change.

It is still like a charitable model in some senses. The parents are looking for good old integration in their community but it is more of a charitable model that is coming at them.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

That is why they give you money. One needs guilt.

Like what Ms Steinmetz said initially in her opening statement about giving up one's job, many of our parents had carer's allowance taken away from them because the money thresholds have changed. My husband is self-employed. I lost my carer's allowance because of his income but that does not take away from what I do and why I would have been entitled to get the carer's allowance. My son's needs are changing on an everyday basis but if one had to pay for what we do, one could not put a figure on it.

The expense is not taken into account when it comes to the threshold. This is something I have been looking at in relation to my child maintenance Bill when people are applying for child maintenance and there has been a breakdown in the family relationship. Child maintenance and those supports should look different if one has a child who needs different financial support in relation to, as someone mentioned, specialised clothes and shoes, and all those other extra learning aids that are needed.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

That goes back to the occupational therapy. For example, Jack cannot tie his laces. The last pair of shoes he got are like Barry's cycling shoes. They have a twisty-knob thing to close them. It has made Jack independent with his shoes, but they cost €85. Not everyone is able to afford that. He has to have insoles for his shoes that cost €30 and obviously, he grows out of them. There are expenses other than speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, physiotherapy etc.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

It is difficult to quantify realistically how much we are saving the State and one nearly feels that one is justifying the fact that one is getting carer's allowance. Nothing would pay us to do the amount of work that we do with our children and to put in the hours. Nobody would. I am at a loss for words. It is not possible to quantify the amount of work that we do with our children.

I thank Ms Flanagan and Ms O'Donovan.

First, I must apologise too because, like Senator Ruane, I am going from committee to committee. I am sorry I missed their opening statements

I am a Carlow woman and I welcome the Carlow group here today. I would be very much aware of the services within community health organisation, CHO 5.

My nephew has Down's syndrome and I am his godmother. Let me tell you, he rules the house. He rules my house, my mother's house and his house. Jamie is 26 now. I would have seen the challenges that CHO 5 would have brought to the family of my brother and his son, Jamie.

The one thing I will say is the love from Down's syndrome children is phenomenal. With my own nephew, I see that he has a routine. He loves his routine, as, I am sure, these parents have said. Jamie has a routine and we dare not break that routine for him. If the day to go for his chips is Thursday, we dare not be late. That is so important to us as a family. It is important, too, that families and the impact on families are talked about today. As I said, there is so much love there but there are many challenges for families too.

We spoke about the carers. I myself see it. There are families that would have come to me that do not qualify to get the carer's allowance. In some families, in particular, the mother does not go out to work. Sometimes it is the father who might stay at home. It should not be assessed in terms of money; it should be an automatic right to children.

The other change that should happen is that the funding should be much greater. The witnesses spoke about orthotics. I would have seen, with Jamie over the years, the amount of orthotics that Sandra would have had to buy for him because he was at the stage where he had to get really expensive runners and he would have had to get orthotics for them. That is even a general point, when it comes to fashion in clothes, etc.

My nephew is so grown up. I can probably speak more about Jamie and all his friends at this stage. We have Special Olympics in Carlow. I am sure the witnesses are aware of it. Friday night is the night one goes, and one dare not miss it. The lads have their routine and they go bowling, and then go for their chips afterwards and whatever. It is a lovely social outlet for them and so important. Senator Ruane spoke about the social aspect of it. Down Syndrome Carlow goes on a weekend away every year. They are not too long back.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

Yes.

I heard all about it, I might as well tell Ms Flanagan. I know all about it.

What I am worried about - this is so important - is the lack of services in occupational therapy. It is so unfair. I would have concerns about CHO 5.

Another issue that I would be working on for other families is that of county borders, for instance, whether one is Laois or in Carlow, or Wicklow or in Carlow. I will only talk about Jamie because that is fine for me. Jamie was in St. Laserian's and then went on to Delta, which is excellent. It is hard when one is in a bordering county to access services. Even though one is closer to Carlow - one could be half an hour from Portlaoise - one could have to go over there which means a family member could have to take another half-day off or whatever. A family should be able to say that they are nearer to Carlow, Laois or Wicklow, or that is where their child's friends are, etc. The system itself is failing.

I will be supporting the witnesses' campaign. I have spoken to the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Anne Rabbitte. The Minister of State visited Delta a few weeks ago and we had a parent there. It was a very successful meeting. I have to say I am biased because I am fighting for the Carlow campaign, but I am fighting for everyone as well. I want these groups to know it is national and I am aware of the challenges that are there. The Minister of State has committed to meeting, and that is so important. I was trying to contact her today before I came to the meeting because I wanted to have a date for these groups. Like that, I will work with the Chair and all the other members.

This committee is not a political group. We are all in it together and, as a team, we are stronger. I can only speak about CHO 5 - because that is the one that I would have most dealings with but I will make sure that CHO5 will deliver far more than what it is delivering. I have huge concerns. I will not repeat the issues with the different services because I see it all the time. I will definitely work with the committee to get a suitable date for the Minister of State to meet the groups.

What else do they want me or the members here to do? What else would be most crucial thing that could affect their families or children? What else do they think that we can do here today? I missed their opening statements, but I read them. I am always working on behalf of families and children. I will continue to do so but I always feel it is not until one or one's family is in a situation that one sees the knock-on effect or the challenges that family and children face, and that is unacceptable.

Rather than repeat what others have said all I will say is that the witnesses have 100% commitment from me. I always open the Special Olympics in Kilkenny. I am always there to cut the ribbon. I give a big spiel on it because I am so passionate on it. I attend all of the events. There is not a thing I miss, as the witnesses probably know. I am there for them with anything I can do. There is 100% commitment. I am so glad they came today. It is lovely to see them. They should not have to be fighting but it is great to see them here fighting for what they know is right, but which is not being given. Well done and keep up the fight.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

I want to say to the Deputy that what we need in County Carlow is services. We need people on the ground. We need therapists. All of our members, 100% of them, need speech and language therapy. That is closely followed by occupational therapy and physical therapy. That is our number one need and our number one want. I was thinking the other day about the difference between a want and a need. Our children need services, this is not a want. What we need right now is to help our children. Without that help we are on the back foot trying to help our children.

It is unacceptable. That is all I can say. It is unacceptable that the witnesses even have to be here today looking for those services.

Ms Olivia Flanagan

It is.

Totally. As I have said, I will go back to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and will do whatever I can. I have been working with parents over the years, and I have had some success stories. However, that is unacceptable. Every child deserves these services, and nobody should have to come and fight for them. I will absolutely do what I can.

Ms Lucy Moran

I think the hardest part of having a child with any delay is the fight for service. It is then the fight within yourself to know if you are giving them enough. What else can you do? We are reading books. We are joining webinars. We are trying to upskill ourselves, but at the end of the day we are not therapists. We do not spot all the opportunities that every speech therapist would spot to teach a child a new word, make them make a different sound, or things like that. We do not know. We need help and we need it now.

Well done to all of them. They are great people and great parents. Well done.

I want to make a final point particularly in relation to Senator Ruane's questions. It really comes down to staffing in the HSE in terms of the waiting lists. It is something we discuss at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters too. We had a joint sitting of these two committees and it is important at the end of the discussion to have a sense of the crux of the problem. Where has it come from? What are the solutions? A big problem has been the failure to progress disability services. It has had incredibly bad press, obviously and understandably. As a result people feel less inclined to go and work in the service. What Ms O'Donovan highlighted about section 39 workers is absolutely crucial. That is something that could have been addressed by the Government at the last budget. There are solutions here that we should focus on at the close. I want to make a quick point on that. This is an incredibly rewarding sector to work in and it is important that we put that message out from the committee as well. I worked in disability support services for many years and I have never enjoyed a job so much. It is much more enjoyable than this particular role.

There is a problem in Ireland at the moment, because of the failure of that particular service, and the changeover to it, people have been put off going into the service. I know from family members who use speech and language therapies that they feel there are better opportunities in the UK. They do not want to be in a service where they do not feel they can provide the service they were trained to give because the waiting lists are too long and they are trying to do things quicker. The solution is obviously to address things like section 39 workers if that is the crux of the problem. They are putting all of these resources into it. Deputy Sherlock highlighted how many millions were going into a recruitment company that was failing to recruit people. Perhaps we need to be looking at some sort of recruitment campaign to explain why the service has gone the way it has, but also to say that we need staff because the future is bright. The fact that focus is not there in the HSE is what makes it feel like there is no hope of progressing disability services, PDS, improving. Perhaps that is what we need to be calling for collectively, both on this committee and the Joint Committee for Disability Matters.

We should also write to the Joint Committee for Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to take on looking at the offering of courses in higher education.

Yes, so people do not have to continuallly come up and tell the committee how desperate the situation is. We need to start to focus on the solutions.

We need to sort it.

Ms Lucy Moran

It must be very frustrating for the staff who are working within the CDNTs and primary care.

Ms Lucy Moran

Who can blame them if they do not stay? I do not think I could face that.

Imagine investing that recruitment money in social care workers who have maybe done Further Education and Training Awards Council, FETAC, level 5 and level 6 courses in community work. Imagine investing in those young people already living in communities to actually work in that area. It would be much better spent in the long run.

Ms Aileen O'Donovan

A lot of our adults need shadows and the service provider is looking for volunteers. I even saw an advertisement on Instragram earlier on. Someone was looked for to accompany an adult with Down's syndrome from Clonakilty, County Cork, to the Field of Dreams to undertake their education. However, they need someone to travel with them. It is not just one thing. There is something else in it. Simple things make such a difference.

Either Ms. Moran or Ms Flanagan suggested that there could be a shorter training course particularly for paediatric speech and language therapists. Those are the kind of solutions the HSE needs to look into.

Ms Lucy Moran

OT is the main one for us.

This has been a really good session. There were also some good points made at the end by Deputy Cairns in terms of the solutions. It is really important that we are solution focused. It is the whole purpose for us hearing from the witnesses today, and hearing what the asks are. It comes down to some really key points that were made about services in the community. It is really important that you are not bussing people out for hours on end, because that is unsustainable for a functioning service. It really is not too much to ask for. It is also really important that there is long-term planning. I know Senator Ruane touched on this, but I was delighted to see the detail in the Carlow submission on the SLT places. We need to have long-term planning. This is for 90 places. I was not aware of how low it is. One then thinks about where those 90 people are, but that is low to begin with. We also need a short-term solution. We know it is now at crisis level, with the number of waiting lists. We are not saying we will be able to solve all of those problems. I just want to say that. Obviously, we will be doing our report, which we will be sending to the Department and to the Minister, and hoping to see some of these changes. Some of the solutions are really staring us straight in the face. They are really straightforward. I often find myself saying in this place that there is a lack of common sense in so many of the systems and Departments. It is great to get that first-hand experience that we can put into our reports. I am sure that we will be in further contact too as a committee. I thank the witnesses for coming in. We are a committee that hears a lot of very personal stories. It is not easy for people to come in, and they should not have to come in and tell their personal stories. We certainly appreciate it and we understand that it is not easy, but it helps the work that we are pushing and campaigning for. We appreciate that.

It is proposed that the committee publish the opening statements on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

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