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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jan 2009

Electricity Grid: Discussion with EirGrid.

I welcome Ms Bernie Gray, chairperson of EirGrid, Mr. Dermot Byrne, its chief executive, and Mr. Andrew Cooke, grid commercial and development executive director. The joint committee has invited them to discuss Grid 25, a strategy for the development of Ireland's electricity grid for a sustainable and competitive future.

Before we begin, I draw everyone's attention to the fact that, while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee which cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members to turn off their mobile telephones, as they interfere with the operations of the recording unit. I understand that Ms Gray will open proceedings.

Ms Bernie Gray

On behalf of the board of management of EirGrid, I thank the Chairman and committee members for the opportunity to make this presentation on Grid 25 and to answer any questions they might have. Since we appeared before the committee last year, EirGrid made significant progress in several areas, including the connection of wind projects to the grid providing us with more than 1,000 MW of wind capacity, the advancement of the east-west interconnector, the acquisition of a system operator in Northern Ireland and the launch of Grid 25, a strategic outline of key transmission developments required to underpin Ireland's economic recovery and the facilitation of renewable energy use in the grid.

As we outlined previously, one of the key tasks ahead is the major reinforcement of the national transmission system. Grid 25 sets out a national blueprint for transmission development across the country. This involves an investment of €4 billion in the next 17 years and a doubling of our bulk transmission capacity. This will ensure continued high quality and reliable power supplies throughout Ireland, facilitate national and regional economic development, promote competition in the electrical market and bring benefits to consumers. It will also be critical in enabling Ireland to move to more sustainable renewable sources of energy and increase our connectivity to the European grid. It aims to provide a level playing pitch for all parts of the country by equipping all areas to meet local demand, facilitating industrial growth and greatly enhancing the renewable energy sources available to Ireland.

Members will agree that this investment was never as critical as it is now, in that it will enable national economic recovery. Ireland needs a safe and secure supply of energy at a competitive price to compete with the rest of the world for inward investment and to grow indigenous industries. For now, our electricity supply is reliable and secure, but this situation will change in the next five to six years as demand grows, particularly for renewable energy, and the realities of the costs of a high emissions-producing society begins to bite.

Grid 25 represents the most extensive upgrade the national grid has ever seen. The additional lines will be essential to route, for example, renewable energy from the west to areas of high demand in the east. This work, which will be carried out to international safety standards, will involve upgrading existing lines where possible and balancing Ireland's need for a reliable supply at reasonable cost with the impact on communities and the environment. Building infrastructure is not an easy task to undertake. I ask members to consider this point and the overall needs of the country in considering these issues. The potential benefits of a world-class transmission system are great. It takes time to plan and build the line properly and this is the reason we have engaged in extensive consultation on lines being developed and will continue to do so.

At our last meeting Members were cleared that EirGrid needed to improve and expand its consultative process on the north east 400 kV projects. Since then, we have had more than 90 public meetings and opened local briefing centres in Navan and Monaghan. We continue to review the public requirement for information. We must make difficult decisions, perhaps even unpopular ones, to secure a strong economic platform into the next decade and beyond and to provide a level playing field across Ireland for the next generation of graduates. It is not in our interest to place anyone at unnecessary risk in the pursuit of the expansion of the transmission network.

Our management team representatives are Mr. Dermot Byrne, chief executive and Mr. Andrew Cooke, director of grid development. After Mr. Byrne's presentation on these issues we will be pleased to answer questions.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

I will talk briefly about Grid 25 and I apologise to any Deputy, such as Deputy Coveney, who must sit through this presentation again.

I might go on the missing list for a while.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Grid 25 emerged from the Government's White Paper in March 2007. We indicated that we wanted to strategically examine the development of the grid so that we can put in place the grid that is required to deliver Government policy by 2025. This is the first time we took such a strategic view of the grid rather than the five-year planning time frame we had pursued until now. We have worked at this since the White Paper and published the report in October 2008.

Members have already seen the diagram showing the existing transmission system. It is a dynamic system. An analogy is the road network in Ireland with the 110 kV lines, covering 4,000 km, akin to the national roads; the higher capacity 220 kV network, covering 1,800 km, akin to dual carriageways and the 400 kV the lines are akin to motorways. It is different to a motorway because this is a dynamic system that pulls the whole power system together, from the generators feeding into the system to the 50 Hertz, 50 cycles per second supply that everyone has in a house.

We are developing the grid because as every member of the committee understands, electricity is vital for economic growth. The economy is going through a downturn and history tells us that economies rebound from downturns. We must ensure that we have the platform to support growth when it kicks in again. We must make sure that each region and each county can share in that economic development, in such a way that the grid does not become a barrier to any region or country participating in that and that individual industries, farms and households can be assured of a reliable power supply irrespective of where they are located.

We have a fantastic renewable resource in wind and wave. We are beginning to seriously access and harness this for the benefit of the people. As the Chairman said, we have more than 1,000 MW of wind generation capacity now connected to the network and we are rapidly rising towards the target of 15% energy in 2010 and in 2020. One of the key enablers of this is the grid. We do not have anything if we do not have the grid to take energy from where it is generated to where it is used.

IBEC said:

Reliable and cost-effective electricity transmission infrastructure underpins inward investment, regional economic development and allows us to harness indigenous sources of renewable energy, such as wind and wave. EirGrid strategy clearly illustrates the need to put in place the infrastructure needed to meet these ambitions.

I refer to the drivers of grid development. The grid ties generation to demand. On the generation side, we are undergoing a transformation of the generation portfolio here since 2000 and we have connected 3,000 MW on the system. This figure includes a significant amount of wind generation and some conventional gas turbine combined cycle type plants. The total now generated is 7,430 MW, of which 1,000 MW is wind. We have a further 3,000 MW in various stages of development. Agreements are in place with EirGrid for connection. This will include an additional 1,600 MW of wind generation. The projects are being developed and turbines are being erected. We are about to embark on the next stage of the offer process. There is a group offer process for wind and renewable energy sources. We have completed gates 1 and 2, which are being developed, and we are about to embark on gate 3. The regulator issued a direction on gate 3 before Christmas. There will be a total of 4,000 MW of wind energy in this gate. There will be an unspecified number of conventional power plants to complement the wind energy. There is another direction on the number of conventional plants but we will make offers over the next 18 months to two years until we reach 7,000 MW. That is a major undertaking and we will work with the ESB networks on that. Some of these will connect to the distribution level. The offers we make in the next two years will amount to the same number of megawatts connected in this country since the beginning of the State. It is a staggering project that we are about to undertake.

The other drivers for grid development include the single electricity market, of which members are aware. Generators in Northern Ireland and in the South are competing with each other hour by hour and day by day to deliver the most economic power at any point. To do this, power must flow freely north and south of the Border.

The bottleneck we face in the existing North-South interconnector costs consumers in the order of €20 million per annum because of our inability to tap into the most economical sources. We are working to alleviate that bottleneck but we also have to ensure that we have sufficient strength in our backbone network to alleviate to the maximum extent possible other potential bottlenecks and to optimise the generation system. That will also encourage competition by offering choice and competitive prices for consumers.

Looking ahead to 2025, everybody understands that Ireland and the world face major challenges in terms of climate change and energy security. Our awareness of the latter has increased due to the issues that have arisen over several weeks involving Russia and Ukraine and the impact of these on gas deliveries across Europe. Demand levels in Ireland will increase. History shows that demand rebounds from economic downturns and, while are seeing a softening of demand at present, when we look towards 2025 we have to plan for demand increases. As the electricity supply system becomes de-carbonised through increased dependence on renewable energy we will see opportunities for de-carbonising the transport sector through, for example, electric vehicles. Considerable policy interest and research and development has focused on that area. By 2025 we will see transport being de-carbonised through increasing use of electric vehicles, which in turn puts further demands on the electricity supply system.

Renewable generation will contribute 40% of Ireland's electricity needs by 2020 and that trend will continue in subsequent years. Wind will be pivotal to achieving that target. The technology is commercially available at present and work is ongoing on offshore wave and wind generation. These will play a part in the overall generation portfolio by 2025 and biomass will also make a significant contribution. We will also have to further develop conventional generation and imports through interconnectors to complement renewable energy. I refer to the more flexible generation methods which can help us to manage the intermittent nature of wind and, to a certain extent, wave power. We will put additional interconnectors in place to increase our integration with European networks and this will be a key enabler in facilitating the 40% target. As significant amounts of wind energy will at times be generated during periods of reduced demand, we will have to find an outlet for that energy if we are not to lose it. The interconnectors give us the means to sell electricity to other markets.

Renewable power is being developed in non-traditional generation locations, such as along the west coast. This puts demands on the grid in terms of large west to east flows. Our analysis shows, therefore, that the backbone network capacity, that is, the bulk transmission grid needs to be doubled. The slide now before members outlines some of the primary corridors for reinforcement investigation. The Mayo area, which generates a significant amount of renewable energy, has the opportunity to develop a strong industry in renewable energy but we will need to strongly reinforce the west to east power flows if we are to bring that energy to the grid. A similar case could be made for the south west. These are the main corridors in respect of which we will bring forward proposals in the near future. We are starting to examine solution options for these clear-cut needs.

Considerations in developing the grid include safety, reliability and ensuring it is fit for purpose. To a certain extent, it also has to be future proofed. The grid strategy, as opposed to incremental development, is important in this regard. I would use the analogy of building a third lane on the M50 now rather than causing further disruption by building it retrospectively in several years time. Clearly, the strategy has to be affordable. All members will be aware that our electricity is costly and a recent competitiveness report put us at 14th out of 15 in this regard.

We have a smart grid, as anyone who has visited the national control centre will understand. At any given time, we have 170 computers in various locations sending a total of 37,000 pieces of information per second to the control centre, which arranges the data into meaningful information for the two trained engineers who run the power system. At times, some of that information passes through our computer without manual intervention to, for example, Turlough Hill. The system is pretty smart and getting smarter. The amount of information handled has doubled over the past four years. However, when people speak about smart grids they actually mean smart power systems. The grid is one part of this system but its optimisation also requires the integration of generators as actors. The consumer is increasingly being included as an actor through smart metres so that he or she can make decisions in real time which help us to optimise the power system.

In terms of strategic technical options for developing the grid, some of the decisions that have to be made include whether to build circuits at 400kV or 220kV, to upgrade existing lines or build new ones and to go underground or overhead. We also face decisions on where the new technology, high voltage direct current, has application within the grid. We are using that technology for developing the east-west interconnector and are about to award a major contract on that project but we are not sure yet whether it has application within the grid as opposed to linking two separate grids. Other new technologies are available and significant research and development is ongoing. New overhead conductors have much higher capacity and would enable us to upgrade existing lines without necessarily having to alter the structures on which the conductors hang. We will also examine the potential benefits to us of new pylon designs. We have a toolbox of options but we must ensure that we pick the tools that deliver the requirements I outlined.

We will be investing €4 billion in Ireland's electricity infrastructure in the next 17 years to 2025. We will be minimising new line construction and building new high capacity lines at 400 kV rather than 220 kV. A 400 kV line has three times the capacity of 220 kV line, although they both look the same and are of pylon construction. To put it another way, instead of building one 400 kV line, we would have to build three 220 kV lines. The current is lower on the 400 kV line because the voltage is higher. Therefore there is not as much loss. There are very sound reasons to go to 400 kV in order to minimise the losses.

The strategic long-term view is more cost effective and has less environmental impact than if we were to develop the grid on an incremental basis. A third lane can be built now rather than having to retrofit it later.

With regard to doubling the capacity of the bulk transmission system, our analysis points to the optimum way to proceed being to upgrade 2,300 km of the existing network, which is just over 6,000 km in total, using some of the technologies mentioned earlier. We will also construct over 1,000 km of new circuits. In all of this we will be using best practice and new technology. Critical to the considerations of the committee, we must ensure we get the balance right between the reliability of the power supply, the cost and affordability of it and the impact on the environment and communities which we will pass through with the building of the infrastructure.

In terms of a split on the €4 billion, we have considered the regional impact of the investment right across country. One can see the spread of the investment in each region from the slides. Over the period, we are talking of in the order of 800 to 1,000 high quality jobs in the development of the grid. This is a much needed and necessary investment in our future.

We are communicating the Grid 25 strategy, although the strategy itself is not a detailed plan. Behind this strategy we are working to develop the proposed solutions that will implement Grid 25 and address the issues on the grid. The work has started and our teams of engineers are working on bringing forward the proposed solutions. As these crystallise into projects we will bring them into the consultation process, through the strategic infrastructure board and into project development. That is the process we will follow in the next number of years.

The challenge is to get the balance right between security and reliability in the power system as everyone understands that forward direct investment and high-tech industry require a highly reliable and secure power supply. An example is the Intel plant, which is very sensitive to issues on the network. We have a very close working relationship with the Intel people. If there is a blip on that network, they see it immediately and it costs them much money because of down time and having to get the plant back up again. We are very conscious of that and work very closely with Intel and other large consumers like Aughinish Alumina or any of the large industrial customers.

I have addressed costs efficiencies already. We are a higher cost than most of our competitors and we must address this to ensure we do not put ourselves at a competitive disadvantage in what we do. With regard to the environment, we must get the balance right between these issues, communities and the environment.

Some issues have surfaced with regard to our consultation process on the north-east projects. These include undergrounding versus overhead lines, which has surfaced very strongly in that debate and the debate within the committee. There has been a series of technical reports dealing with HVDC, underground cables, new conductor types and new tower types. We are doing much work in this area to ensure we have the right toolkit going into this Grid 25. We have commissioned studies on HVDC, underground cables, new conductor types, and we are looking at new tower types as well. We will have the full toolkit available to us going into this process.

There is ongoing consultation with a wide range of stakeholders and this will continue to be the way forward for other projects as they crystallise. We are of course looking at international experience and are very plugged into this. Some of our engineers are working very closely on working groups, such as Seagrave, the international high voltage committee.

As I mentioned, some of the technical issues have come up very strongly in the consultation process that we have currently. Undergrounding versus overhead is one of the key factors and the committee will be aware of this. Undergrounding is not common practice at the 400 kV level anywhere in the world, except where it is appropriate in urban or built-up areas and it is not possible to build overhead lines. There are very significant technical difficulties with the undergrounding of strategic lines over long distances. The longest underground cable at this high voltage level anywhere in the world is the 40 km cable in Tokyo, which is a very spread out city. It is laid in a tunnel, so it is very expensive technology. We have engaged the people who undertook this work, TEPCO, the Tokyo Electric Power Company. They are world experts in this because they have dealt with the longest project. We are looking to tap into their expertise on what might be possible on an Irish network.

The committee will also be very familiar with the Ecofys report, which was commissioned by the Department and the Minister earlier last year. This was a generic study not looking at any particular location but rather considering the policy perspective. The committee will be very familiar with the findings of the report, which is that cables are severely limited in terms of transmission adequacy. There is significant reliability issue. The capital cost of underground cables as determined by Ecofys was five times greater than that of overhead lines and three times the life cycle costs when losses are taken into account. They also confirmed there is no international experience of laying cables at this voltage over long distances. They stated that any of the advantages of underground cables identified in the study cannot compensate for the negative impact on transmission adequacy. The committee is familiar with that particular study and had a presentation on it.

I will deal with some of the other international experience. Denmark has a very strong transmission grid, with a very strong 400 kV backbone network. It is strongly interconnected with Germany, Sweden and Norway, and they have made a decision that in the longer term there will be a move towards an undergrounding policy. Over the next decade they will continue with 400 kV overhead lines and they will obviously be monitoring development of underground technology and perhaps even doing some research in the area. They will not underground long lengths of 400 kV circuits until studies establish the feasibility of doing so.

The Netherlands recently announced a new 85 km 380 kV transmission circuit. Of this, 75% is to be constructed as an overhead line. There will be an element of cabling of up to 20 km, which is deemed the maximum feasible distance in that country. In laying that 20 km of cable, they will be undertaking an eight-year study of its performance in the network in order to examine its feasibility. This will feed into policy.

With regard to the north-east projects, as members know, we are in a consultation process. In our strategic road map, which we published last April, we set out a process which will bring us to the point of submitting a planning application. Committee members will be familiar with that. I will talk about where we are at in this process in a moment. With regard to placing the lines underground, we made available to the committee at our last meeting last year a preliminary report from our consultants, PB Power, on the generic issue of placing lines underground versus overhead, which was based on UK experience. We indicated to the committee that we were also developing a site-specific study which will form part of the application to the strategic infrastructure board. I am happy to say that the PB Power report, which is jointly commissioned by us and by NIE in the North — as members know, a section of the project crosses the Border, so it is a joint project — is being signed off by us and will be ready for publication in the next number of days. We will be publishing it as soon as it is available. One of the key findings of this site-specific study, which was undertaken for the full length of the line, is that the capital cost of overhead lines is €78 million, compared to €567 million for the underground option. Thus, the latter is more expensive by a factor of seven. We will be publishing this and it will be available to the public and the committee early next week. In addition, the reliability issues associated with the underground option are very much to the fore.

I will return to the indicative strategic road map which we published. This was broken up into a number of different phases. Phase 1 involved public consultation. Phase 2 then moved us into constraints and a route selection report, and phase 3 was to look at the preferred route option and evaluate it before going to the strategic infrastructure board. Then, during the statutory phase, we would scope the environmental impact assessment and proceed towards submitting a planning application. As there is an urgency about the development of this infrastructure, we had hoped to move more quickly on this, but we are in a consultation phase and we respond to everything in that consultation process.

I will summarise where we are now in the process. Phase 1 is complete; we have carried out our initial public consultation. We are in phase 2 which deals with constraints and route selection. The reason we have not moved forward more rapidly on this is that there have been a number of reports on the option of underground versus overhead cabling. The Ecofys report had a major input into this debate. One of the interest groups, North East Pylon Pressure, produced the ASKON report. We have had a number of meetings with that interest group and we hope to continue to be in discussion with it. We recently met the Minister and NEPP and we have a way forward in terms of intensifying that engagement. We will be issuing our PB Power report and we will allow time for comments on this, but then we will be in a position to move towards phase 3, which is the announcement and evaluation of the preferred route. That leads us towards the statutory phase, which is to do with the strategic infrastructure board established by the Oireachtas to adjudicate on all planning matters pertaining to strategic infrastructure. By definition in the relevant Act, transmission is strategic infrastructure. That is where we are right now.

Standing back from that particular project but looking at the overall Grid 25 strategy, it is essential that we do all the things involved. The opposite is also true: if we do not develop the grid, we are not in a position to support regional development or to provide reliability and security of supply, and that has significant implications for industry — both indigenous industries and foreign companies which are thinking of Ireland as a location. They have to be sure that Ireland can provide a reliable and secure supply. In addition, if we do not develop the grid, we will not be in a position to increase Ireland's connectivity to the European grid. We will not be in a position to meet our carbon emissions targets and to tap into the fantastic renewable resource we have in this country and, of course, we are not in a position to underpin the competitive electricity market and the additional costs associated with not having the proper grid in place.

That is a quick run-through of the strategy. We are happy to take any questions at this stage.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Ms Gray. Before I ask the members for their contributions, I have two or three questions to put to the witnesses. On the matter of the existing transmission system, I note that in Northern Ireland there are no 400 kV or 220 kV lines. Why would that be? Is the target figure of 40% generation from renewables by 2020 realistic? Will this goal be met? It looks to be a challenging one. What is the projected percentage increase in demand in 2025 compared to now? In other words, what is the demand now and what do the witnesses expect it will be by 2025?

I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive presentation. I missed the presentation last week, so I appreciate them coming back again. I do not know whether it is the best use of their time, but I appreciate it.

Today's newspapers report that the EU, through the recovery plan, will contribute €100 million to the east-west interconnector and that there will be some supports for wind power. I welcome that news. Will Mr. Byrne outline the difference that could make to the connector? The overall cost of Grid 25 is €4 billion. Will Mr. Byrne remind me of the specific cost of the east-west interconnector?

My second question relates to cost. Mr. Byrne referred to the report of the National Competitiveness Council, which is quite worrying, particularly in the current situation. Ireland has the second highest industrial costs in the EU. That puts us at a direct disadvantage. What I was interested in was the fact that the domestic controllable costs actually make up 30% of the difference. I must say I had presumed the increases were all related to oil and gas, but clearly that affects everybody in the EU. However, here we have a specific element within the cost that we have some control over. I would be concerned that such a major programme of expansion and development would mean that the burden on the consumer, particularly the industrial consumer, will be quite heavy. The State does not contribute to this kind of development. Perhaps the delegates might talk about costs in terms of what is likely to be a shrinking demand in the commercial sector. It may not shrink but it will certainly not move forward. What is the context now compared to the context within which this report was drawn up? What kind of influence does that have in terms of planning for the future? Since it is clear that EirGrid is sticking with the plan, what will be the impact, onerous or otherwise, on the customer?

I was intrigued that the spread of investment is so different in different regions. As I recall, the highest investment was in the south east. The delegates might comment on that. Is it simply that certain regions have fallen behind, or is it an issue that relates to renewables? Obviously, in the Mayo area, which was mentioned, it is about renewables. Is that the case in general or has there been uneven regional development over the years? The south east suffered most with regard to unemployment even before the downturn. My constituency, South Wicklow, has suffered terribly. Wexford has had particular difficulties. Has there not been sufficient investment in essential services?

I have questions about the north-east development. EirGrid has promised that the PB Power report will be published but the delegates mentioned there are other studies under way in the tool box. Will all those studies be published? Whatever one's views, it is important that all the evidence should be available. Is the option of partial undergrounding being considered? I do not get the impression that the door has been fully closed on undergrounding, even though the delegates repeated some of the arguments on cost and on the limitations of technology. Maybe they are being diplomatic. Is it the case that options such as partial undergrounding are coming to the fore that have not been discussed before?

Phase 3 of the process regarding North-South relates to the landowners. What happens if landowners simply say they will not co-operate? What is the legal position then? Perhaps that could be explained.

I echo the point made by Deputy McManus about the south east. It was almost dislocated from the rest of the EirGrid plan. I think the question has been well covered. There is a serious lack of development in the south east. Much of the region would have qualified for the BMW region in transition rather than what happened. Sin scéal eile. It is water under the bridge.

I return to the report. Regarding the drivers for grid development, I notice that EirGrid has connected 3,000 MW since 2000. What proportion of that was renewables? Of that, can the figure be broken down into wind and other sources? I ask the same with regard to the next 3,000 MW which are in various stages of development. What proportion of those will be renewables? Might we have a breakdown on that?

The delegates mentioned in their presentation that off-shore wave and wind strategies are starting to play their part. Apart from the Arklow bank, where else is there off-shore wind power? Is off-shore wave power making any contribution? I would have thought the technology in that area was not yet well enough advanced to be sufficient and effective. The delegates might comment on that.

They mentioned that we are in 14th place out of 15, which is not where we want to be. Deputy McManus picked up on that point. EirGrid states in Grid 25: The Challenge that we are a high-cost base compared to our competitiors and that we must address that issue. We have been that way for a while. What is being done specifically to address that? What is the cost reduction target that I presume EirGrid has set and is aiming to achieve? We often do such exercises without setting targets, with the result that there is not a great deal of dynamic in the process.

Competititveness starts at home. Efficiency and cost-effectiveness are either part of an organisational ethos or are absent. In many cases in the public service, because of the lack of profit driving the situation, they tend to be lacking. Given that we have the chairman and the CEO of the company here, we can ask them what initiatives are being taken in Eirgrid to improve cost efficiencies and cost effectiveness. Specificially, are there any proposals for pay reduction, voluntary or otherwise? I put that question on the basis that we are very uncompetitive in terms of salaries. We had a debate in the Seanad last night during which I quoted figures which showed that the average income in urban areas of Ireland in 2005 was €44,000. We are 52% up on the British figure for urban areas. We are 38% up, not only on Germany but on the urban parts of western Germany. This means we must look at corrections that could be in the order of a third. People talk of reductions of approximately 10% but we might be talking of addressing salaries by reductions of as much as a third. We can try to move in that direction or, ultimately, we will be forced to do it. That is why I put the question to you.

Is there any rationalisation of numbers planned? What productivity initiatives are in the pipeline in the organisation? I would be interested to know the total number of EirGrid employees, the average pay and the number of those who receive in excess of €100,000.

I welcome the personnel from EirGrid and thank them for their presentation. It is nice to hear somebody giving positive views. We welcome the fact that they are spending €4 billion over seven years and also the number of jobs they hope to create.

The delegates provided us with a map of the current services. This clearly outlines the two 400 kV lines, one of which goes directly through my part of the country. The other goes reasonably close to it. Is there a map of what the system will be when the plans are finalised? Can the delegates outline where they plan to place the other lines, or tell us what is in the plans? They outlined a €310 million investment in the midlands region. Can they give us an idea what it involves and what is included? Does it merely relate to lines passing overhead?

I refer to the 400 kV lines that pass through my area. A study is being done on this at present in respect of health issues. It would seem that quite a number of people in that area have had high levels of cancer, particularly of tumours. Perhaps it is just a coincidence. I have noticed that when one passes under that line in a car or a tractor the radio cuts out, or it crackles as one approaches the line and goes under it. It then cuts out. Many people complain about dizzyness and nausea as a result of living alongside that line or when passing under it. I would like the delegates to address some of the health issues.

I do not wish to open the debate on the north-east pylons issue but I judge from listening this morning that the delegates have made their minds up that there will be an overhead line, irrespective of any reports that may come out. There are experts in every field and a report depends very much on the terms of reference under which it is commissioned. I would like the delegates to comment on the report compiled by the national energy programme, NEP, which states other than what the delegates state. Do they think that report is off the rails, or significant? What is their attitude to it? The delegation has mentioned many things regarding electricity, such as wind, wave and renewables, which are all welcome. It has not mentioned nuclear energy. Is it totally off the agenda or has this option been investigated?

We have had the experience of lines going through the countryside. Apart from how they look and their impact on the environment, there can be damage to land and property when lines are being constructed or upgraded. There can also be total disregard for the farming community. In my own case, the company has come on the wettest days of the years, has gone on to the wettest part of the land and has ploughed it up. What is the delegation's relationship with farming organisations? Has it secured consent or agreement from them?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

My colleagues and I shall share the load. I will address the Chairman's questions first. Regarding the existing transmission system in Northern Ireland, the blue on the map represents 275 kV double circuit overhead transmission lines. A different standard is used, which is the UK standard of 275 kV. In the interconnector in Louth we transform between the 275 kV and our 220 kV system. Existing projects will use 220 kV on both sides.

Is that 400 kV?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

I understand that 275 kV projects are actually built to a 400 kV standard but do not operate at 400 kV.

It was asked if the target of 40% is realistic. As I said at the last committee meeting, we welcome targets because it energises people to overcome obstacles, address them and get stuck into the issue. We have a fantastic team of young, dynamic engineers who are energised and want to achieve this target.

The company has set a policy, which is supported by the board, of being world leaders in facilitating the achievement of these targets. To achieve these targets we must be world leaders because we are a relatively small island and the dynamics of our power system, which has a lot of intermittent wind on it, is quite different from the dynamics of mainland Europe, which is a massive system and is not shaken by small variabilities. Our system can be considerably affected by wind coming on and off it. We have particular operational challenges we must meet. The target is realistic provided we are realistic in developing the grid, which is the single biggest thing which will enable us to achieve these targets. If we do not have a gird, we cannot achieve the 40% target, which is why we have been ahead of the curve in developing Grid 25.

President Obama spoke about developing a smart grid for the US and others there are talking about developing 19,000 miles of 765 kV, which is ultra high voltage, in order to link the sources of renewable power. It is a much bigger country and involves much greater distances but that is the enormity of the task they have to create a Grid 25 in the US. We have done the work but now support and acceptance is needed from stakeholders that we must have balance. We must be realistic and get the right balance between the three elements of the triangle.

Regarding the level of demand by 2025, we conducted a study last year which looked at various demand scenarios. Demand for energy over the past 20 or 25 years has grown by approximately 150%. Over the next 20 years the level of growth will be 60%. Demand is slowing down. The report preceded the softening of the market which is being seen now and will, inevitably, affect the numbers.

We are talking about a strategy rather than a plan. It is not set in stone. The plan will come to implement the strategy. We will be able to monitor actual demand growth each year and amend and adapt our plans accordingly. In that sense it is very robust. I spoke about transport electrification which will add demand to the power system. The economy will recover and this will provide the platform for it to recover.

We saw The Irish Times this morning and were very pleased. It is not a decision, it is a report from Brussels. We are awaiting a decision today and look forward to it because €100 million is a significant contribution to a significant project, the east-west interconnector project. It will make a very significant difference to the impact on customers. Everything will impact on that.

What is the estimated cost?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

This week we will finalise the contract, so if the Deputy does not mind I shall not say because of its sensitive nature.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

It will make a significant contribution towards the project.

According to the competitiveness council report, we are the second highest and come 14th out of 15 countries. There are many reasons why that is the case. Some countries, such as France, have a high percentage of power generated by nuclear energy which contributes significantly to lower costs. Other countries have a mix of power generation. The final analysis found that generation is a huge factor in the cost of electricity. Many countries have a much higher percentage of hydropower than Ireland does; we have some but the level stands at approximately 4% at the moment.

I want to pursue that issue a little. It is my understanding that wind could add to the cost. Is that not the case?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

It depends.

Does it need guaranteed supports?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

We are looking towards 2020 or 2025. The IEA issued its world energy outlook before Christmas and Dr. Fatih Birol, its chief economist, was in Ireland briefing on its report. It has signalled that the era of cheap oil is over. The price at the moment is approximately $40 and was $147 last year. There may be short term blips but oil and gas are finite resources.

If one takes a strategic long-term view one must begin to plan for such a scenario. Depending upon the assumptions one makes about the price of gas or carbon — which is increasingly priced into the cost of electricity — and one is serious about tackling climate change, one must accept all of these things.

Once wind turbines are built the power is free. We have a great resource which should be much more economical here than anywhere else. By spending money on the grid, which will have a minimal impact because transmission accounts for approximately 10% of the bill, we will enable the benefits of renewable energy to be delivered to customers everywhere in the country.

Ms Bernie Gray

With greater interconnection between Ireland, the UK and, potentially, Europe we have the capacity, with an excess of wind in our system, to sell it on in the same way Demark does to the rest of Scandinavia. There are two opportunities. One is to reduce the domestic costs and the second is to increase the revenue stream through access to a different market where the same supply of wind may not be available. This increases the efficiency and optimal cost of wind.

At the moment we have a very limited capacity to off-load, given that we have a single interconnector. On Grid 25 we hope to increase our interconnection capacity by approximately 800 MW which gives us a greater opportunity to optimise the use of wind in Ireland, the United Kingdom and across Europe.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Investment is significant and the same standards must apply in every region. In some regions we might have more long-term work to do because of the developments taking place there or in neighbouring regions. In no sense will any region be disadvantaged. We have published our detailed operational planning criteria on our website. We provide the same level of reliable supply in every region. That is our mandate.

Mr. Andrew Cooke

There would be significant investment in the south east, driven by several factors. There is a great deal of new generation, renewable and gas-fired, expected in the south west and it must go from there to the load centres and potentially to the interconnectors for export. In the south east there is considerable interest in generation development and in further interconnector development for the United Kingdom or Europe. There is an interest in offshore wind up and down the east coast and we have at least one project on the west coast which will be addressed in the gate 3 process. The eastern corridor needs significant reinforcement to meet local needs and the potential transit needs through the region. That enables the injection of further power into towns and centres along the way to facilitate economic or industrial growth in the area.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Our policy is to make reports available as soon as we have them.

Undergrounding has a place in the network. Where it is appropriate to underground Grid 25 we will make proposals to do so. There are places where undergrounding does not have a role and we must be clear and realistic about that. We do not have closed minds. We are examining the evidence here and overseas and considering what others do. We have an obligation to the Irish people to deliver a reliable, cost-effective power supply. The reports are uniform on this issue.

Mr. Andrew Cooke

We work closely with several organisations, particularly the Irish Farmers Association. We have a close relationship with ESB networks, which owns the transmission system and is responsible for carrying out the construction works. There have been instances of proper protocols not being followed and we are interested in receiving specific information on those to ensure that they do not arise again. ESB Networks is equally concerned that we manage these issues appropriately. If contractors behave inappropriately we can move to address that.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Senator Walsh referred to developments in the south east. The standards there are the same as elsewhere so the electricity supply is there. Endesa, which has taken over the Great Island power station assured us that it will keep that station open for a few years while it develops and re-powers on that site. It has particular ambitions there, which is welcome.

Do those ambitions include incineration?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

I am not aware of any in that space.

Some 2,000 MW of the 3,000 MW are renewables and most of the 1,000 MW we have were built after 2000. Of the next 3,000 MW the proportion will be approximately 1,600 MW or 50%. That 3,000 MW includes the east-west interconnector.

I am happy to say I was involved in connecting the Arklow banks to Arklow. That is all the offshore capacity we have. There are several offshore projects in the gate 3 process on which we are about to embark. By 2020 or 2025 we will begin to see offshore generation coming to the fore.

Wave energy is still in the research and development stage but we must expect that by 2020 or 2025 some commercial projects will be coming on stream. They may have to be supported.

We all agree that we do not want to be ranked 14 out of 15 on costs. EirGrid has a central role in transforming the generation portfolio and getting wind connected. That will have a significant impact on the future cost of electricity.

Can Mr. Byrne quantify the reduction the renewables would bring?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

That depends on the assumptions one makes about gas and requires undertaking a complex study. There is a framework for evaluating the cost benefit of wind on our website. Without wind, fuel and carbon costs are higher and the investment costs of the new power stations needed to meet security of supply will be a factor. With wind in the portfolio, there is a requirement to invest in the wind generators, and a smaller amount of conventional plant to balance and complement it. Anyone can go to our website and plug in assumptions about the price of gas, carbon and the construction of a wind turbine. We have put in two prices, €1.2 million and €1.4 million per megawatt. They probably need to be updated because costs have increased. There is a complex cost-benefit analysis to be done for which we have provided the methodology and thereafter it is a question of the assumptions one makes.

We are building the east-west interconnector which will make the market more competitive. At the moment the ESB is heading towards 40%. We welcome Endesa into the market because it increases competitiveness, as will the interconnector.

Will it be extended into Europe?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Yes, the European policy is to facilitate further integration, to create a regional market and ultimately a single electricity market. Then all countries can share in having more competitive prices. We also operate the wholesale power market which is important to ensure that generators are competing in the market. In regard to cost competitiveness, obviously we work closely with the regulator. EirGrid is a regulated business so the regulator drives our costs down year on year.

I do not have any confidence——

Mr. Dermot Byrne

That is the model within which we work. We are a new and dynamic company and have a fantastic group of enthusiastic people who are focused on delivering Ireland's energy policy agenda. We have a relatively small group of people, approximately 250, 70% or 80% of whom are highly-skilled graduates with PhDs, engineers and economists and so on. The company is up and running for the past two and half years and has been recruiting staff to ensure we are able to deliver on what we have to deliver. Thankfully, we are not in the phase of having to rationalise. We recognise it is a difficult environment. We have been asked to do a very specific task on behalf of the Irish people and we have to look beyond the immediate downturn. In that sense the committee can take it that EirGrid is cost efficient and is very focused on delivering benefits for the Irish customer.

What is the average pay? Is it in excess of——

Mr. Dermot Byrne

I do not have those figures but they are available and we will forward them to the committee. Our annual report includes contains those figures.

To respond to Deputy Coonan, the Grid 25 is a strategy, not a plan. We have to bring forward the projects and look at different options. Some of the major projects will relate to west to east and south west to east. Those are some of the major projects on which we will focus. At this stage we do not know what those projects will be. There may be a role for high voltage direct current, for example, in taking bulk generation from the west and injecting it into the grid at a different point. As we all know there are pros and cons with high voltage direct current.

How will EirGrid get the money if it does not know what the project is?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

The details for the money will come forward. That is a first estimate based on an initial assessment but not enough to bring forward detailed proposals. I mentioned upgrading 2,300 km of overhead line, for which we have a good idea of the cost of same. We also know that we will build more than 1,000 km of new circuits. We do not know what they are yet and we do not know where they will be. We have a good idea of where we need to develop but we are not in a position to bring forward the details. As the details begin to crystallise we will bring the projects into the public domain through the consultation process and then into the strategic infrastructure board. That is the process we will follow in implementing the grid. The Deputy referred to the midlands. Mr. Andrew Cooke has already clarified the issue.

Mr. Andrew Cooke

Further work needs to be done on the exact projects to be brought forward.As Mr. Dermot Byrne said we have a good idea as to which circuits we need to upgrade. That would be more precise and would involve upgrading existing circuits along existing routes. In all regions, while we have a good idea of the volume of capacity we need to bring, the exact technical solutions — whether HVDC plays a part and, in coastal regions, whether subsea might play a part — still have to be worked through and all the options appropriate to each project examined before coming forward with proposals on specifics and routes.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

With regard to the impact on health, I suppose this has been well debated. In any work we undertake, we adhere to the strictest standards in respect of any development on the network. The standards are set by the World Health Organisation and have been ratified in an Irish context by a report conducted in 2007. As recently as 2007, the World Health Organisation established a panel of experts to review the standards and they recommended no change in the existing standards. We work well within those standards. I am delighted to hear that a study is ongoing in respect of the existing 400 kV network. We would be pleased to participate in and hear the results of that study. They are the standards set for us. I am not a medical person. I think I understand the standards and how they are set. The weight of evidence presented to me by the World Health Organisation leads me to believe that there is not an issue with these lines. If there was I would not be able to stand here and say we are happy to build them.

Is it of concern to EirGrid?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

The evidence tells me there is not an issue with these lines. I have no option but to use the existing standards which are set by the World Health Organisation.

I do not mean Mr. Byrne but EirGrid.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

I understand. We work well within those standards. We are not even at the edge of the standards, we are well down on those standards.

Ms Bernie Gray

We have said a number times that it is not in our interest to do something which is unsafe. We have a fundamental legal requirement to provide a safe network. In order to do that, we have to provide it within acceptable standards, as judged by experts in reviewing how it should be conducted. That is the guideline we have followed all the time.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

Absolutely.

Ms Bernie Gray

We continue to review. From EirGrid's point of view, no more than the technology and the solutions that might be available, we have to continue to keep an open mind about everything. We are in a world which is reinventing itself at this time. Being mirrored to any predetermined solutions or judgments about issues does not serve anyone well. It is our responsibility to Ireland and everybody in Ireland to maintain an open mind about how those standards might need to be varied and what impact that might have. Fundamentally what we have to do is provide a safe network.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

The comment about open minds applies to developing the grid. It is not as though we have our minds made up irrespective of reports. All the reports indicate that undergrounding is not an option for us at this point in time. The NEPPreport that we will publish next week verifies that. We have had discussions with NEPP on the Askon report. We have some fundamental concerns with the findings in phase 1 of the report. We have agreed to exchange the phase 2 report with NEPP. We look forward to receiving that report and its findings. At this stage, I am not in a position to say anything because we have not seen the phase 2 report. All the international evidence and the policies others are adopting point to the fact that this technology is not there yet. That is a realistic fact.

I have not mentioned nuclear. Certainly by 2025 we will not see nuclear. There is a huge debate to be had about nuclear. Realistically, even if we were to change our minds at a policy level today it would take probably ten years to shift public opinion, if that is possible, and another ten years to build which puts us beyond 2025. Together with others, we need to start the debate on the shape of the portfolio in 2030. There are a number of options in 2030 for that, for example, clean coal technology, and nuclear may or may not be part of that debate. Will there be some breakthrough in renewables that will enable us to get beyond 40%? Will there be a breakthrough in offshore grids that will enable us to tap into a much greater degree of renewables? All those matters need to be analysed and discussed. We will commission some work on this area and once it is published, we will make it available.

Given that the largest investment in this respect is in the south east, I thought EirGrid might have been making provision for the development of a nuclear reactor in Senator Walsh's county.

Mr. Dermot Byrne

No.

That was tried before.

I will take supplementary questions from Deputies Mattie McGrath and McEntee.

I welcome the representatives of EirGrid and compliment them on their initiatives, energy and positive attitude towards what they are about to do. We all need to plan for the future.

I have one or two questions concerning the health issue. While I accept EirGrid in its work complies with the health standards, the same was said in regard to the putting in place of communications masts. Many people still feel they have a negative health impact despite the fact that the companies concerned claim their operations comply with the standards laid down. That will continue to be an issue. I understand people's concerns and fears concerning overgrounding and undergrounding. I note the costs involved for undergrounding are astronomical.

I also have a question concerning connecting generation to the grid. Reference was made to gate 2 and gate 3. Many people, even those who have secured planning, have encountered great difficulties in getting their projects connected to the grid. Controversial planning decisions in respect of such projects were made in my county.

I have a broader question in light of some of Mr. Byrne's comments. We all know we have to change our lifestyles in terms of renewal energies in the future. I know of a small number of people and small companies who want to build greener homes and a person who wants a specially built house, including a wind turbine. I support the development of such turbines. How would EirGrid envisage the surplus energy from them being connected to the grid? I believe that communities would buy into them, given that in the past large developers, moneyed and powerful people to put it bluntly, got together to form a company and wanted to develop such a project in a community, which immediately created division. People were of the view that developers per se would become rich from developing this project and that the people would be left with the turbines and the overhead or underground line connections to the grid.

How would home-produced turbines supply their surplus energy to the grid? That is what is needed and that is the way forward in terms of renewable energy.

I apologise for being late — it has been one of those days. When a presentation was given on this project, I thought it was the most exciting one in this country and now we have heard the presentation given today. Everybody in the country is supportive of EirGrid and the idea of our providing most of our own energy or a percentage of it. We saw what happened in Kiev and the Ukraine this year. This is a fantastic project and the sooner it gets up and running, the better.

With the cost of energy supplies today and last year, EirGrid will save the country a great deal of money with this project, especially having regard to the hold up in the process by those in the north east. On that issue, is EirGrid happy that all avenues are open in terms of dialogue among EirGrid, the Minister and the NEPP? Mr. Byrne commented on the various issues involved. It appears from those comments that EirGrid has decided on the underground option versus the overground option. As the north east is the test case for the rest of the country, I ask those in EirGrid not to close the door or make up their minds on the option to be taken. It appears as if they have made up their minds. Are they happy with the role the Minister has played?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

As we discussed the health issue in terms of the standards we have to apply, I will move on to the issue of the greener homes. Somebody who wants to connect generation at a very local level will connect on to the distribution network rather than the transmission network. It relates to the issue I mentioned concerning the smart power systems and the ability of individual consumers to participate actively in the network on a day to day basis either by changing the demand behaviour and adapting to price signals or by generating locally and in so far as there is surplus generation feeding it into the network. The technology that will enable that is smart meters. The committee is probably aware that a ESB Networks pilot project is about to get under way, which has been agreed by the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER. While we will not be directly impacted by that, the effects of that will impact on the power system because this is about making a power system. We see that through our control centre. If generation comes on at local level, we will see it in terms of the overall supply and demand. We welcome those kinds of moves. The smart metering project will be the vehicle for facilitating the initiatives Deputy Mattie McGrath spoke about. We will begin to see that. We are not directly involved in it, but we welcome the move towards smart metering because we see huge benefits in that for everybody.

I welcome Deputy McEntee's comments. To answer his question, there was a productive and useful discussion at a meeting between the Minister and the NEPP. The Minister invited us to participate in that meeting, which we were happy to do. As the Deputy is probably aware, we have had a number of meetings with a number of interest groups, in particular, the NEPP, in recent months. We look forward to re-engaging in this respect. The agreement at the meeting was that we would re-engage in regard to those meetings. I am very happy with the role the Minister played in facilitating that particular meeting.

Am I right in thinking that EirGrid has its mind made up in respect of the option to be taken? It appears from what Mr. Byrne said ten minutes ago that is the case. Is EirGrid merely fulfilling an obligation to have such a meeting?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

No. We are engaged in a consultation phase and many of the issues have surfaced in that phase. We have evidence which shows that undergrounding in not the way to go, that it is technically infeasible and very expensive. That is the evidence we have. We want to engage with any party that has other evidence to show us. That is where phase 2 of the NEPP report came into play. We look forward to receiving that from the NEPP. We will certainly examine that evidence, but based on all the evidence we have — all we can work on is the evidence available — our current position is that on the basis of the costs involved, reliability issues and the sheer technical feasibility of undergrounding to the lengths we are talking about, we believe that undergrounding is not the way to go. If we take account of what is being done in other countries such as Denmark, the Netherlands that seem to be moving in that direction, when one examines what is happening there, that is not what they are doing, they would still say that using overhead lines is the way to go in the near future, except for perhaps short lengths of lines.

Mr. Byrne did not answer my question on the gate processes and connections from developers who have planning permissions for projects that appear to be stacked up. How many projects are stacked up waiting to get connected to the grid?

Mr. Dermot Byrne

My colleague, Mr. Andrew Cooke, might take that question.

Mr. Andrew Cooke

As my colleague, Deputy Dermot Byrne, mentioned earlier, there has been an enormous transformation of generation in Ireland in recent years, as there will be in coming years. We are working with an electricity system that meets a peak demand of about 5,000 MW, to give the scale of the system. That is what the transmission system was designed to deliver. On that system we connected 3,000 MW of new generation during the past seven years or so. We have about another 3,000 MW in development which will be connected over the next four years or so. The gate 3 process, which is just kicking off, will make offers in respect of probably another 7,000 MW of generation. It is a massive change and it has been enormous challenge. It has caused everybody to examine their processes and refine and redevelop them and no doubt we will continue to do that. The gate processing system has been a major step forward. We have not solved all the issues yet. We must work on our communication with the industry, including an exchange of information with them on projects and project developments. In general, if one was to talk to any of the generators and the representative bodies in the industry, they would say that there has been a lot of improvement in this area. There is more to do and we will continue to work closely with them on that. One must understand that the scale of what we are talking about here is unprecedented. It brings new challenges and difficulties with it but we are making a lot of progress.

On behalf of the committee, I thank EirGrid's representatives for attending the meeting. I wish them every success with their ambitious plan for Grid 25. We will have them back before the committee again, hopefully in the not too distant future.

Barr