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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES (Sub-Committee on Information Communications Technology) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 2003

Vol. 1 No. 9

Information Communication Technology: Ministerial Presentation.

Before inviting the Minister to speak I wish to inform him about this sub-committee. The information communication technology sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources was set up under the following terms:

That the sub-committee should examine, consider and report to the joint committee on all aspects of the provision of a national high-speed broadband infrastructure, including the cost to users. Secondly, that the sub-committee should examine, consider and report to the joint committee on the potential to deliver Government business and commerce functions through the national high-speed broadband infrastructure.

We hope at the conclusion of our work programme in three months to submit a report to the joint committee which will then be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I thank the Minister for attending and I ask him to set out for us Government policy and the work to date on the planned developments that will lead to the provision of a national high-speed broadband infrastructure, including the cost to the users.

I thank the members of the sub-committee for giving us the opportunity to outline the position in relation to broadband. I will take as a starting point the interdepartmental working group on telecommunications, whose report in 2002 outlined the Government's vision for the availability of affordable open access, always on broadband infrastructure. The idea was to have this within three years and to increase Ireland's position in relation to the comparison with other OECD countries. The programme for Government contained a commitment to roll out broadband in accordance with the phasing which my predecessor agreed.

In the first phase, 19 towns were recommended for construction of the metropolitan area networks, as the Chairman knows having attended the national roll out which coincided with the local roll out in Cork. I have also been to Galway and Ballina and I will be in other areas signing the contracts or authorising the commencement of the roll out. Funding of €64 million has been approved for 2003 and 2004. There was speculation that this area would suffer cutbacks but that is not the case because the Government has prioritised this initiative. It is absolutely vital to roll out the first phase. Galway, Cork and Ballina are up and running and others will follow in the near future. As members are probably aware, the metropolitan area networks are designed in such a way that they will take up most of the industrial and business use areas. Some of the cover is quite extensive, for instance in Galway there is wide coverage of the city area.

We examined how other countries rolled out broadband and based our plan on the Swedish model. We decided to use the local authority structure. There were suggestions that while some local authorities would welcome this with open arms, others would have neither the desire nor the capability to respond. As one who came up through local politics I am very proud of the relationship between my Department and the local authorities in the respective areas. In some areas the project involved a couple of local authorities and they have all responded with open arms. The funding structure is that 90% comes from the Exchequer and 10% from the local authority.

Following the Swedish example, we have decided that when the metropolitan area networks are up and running, a neutral private sector managed service entity will operate them and provide open access to the networks, on a cost basis, to all interested parties. We are developing a code of practice on the usage and operation of these networks, and we have consulted the Department of the Taoiseach, Forfás and IBEC in this respect. The broadband programme fund allocation is €200 million for the period 2000-06. Up to €90 million comes from the European Regional Development Fund, which is a co-financed project, and the two strands of the NDP communications structure funding to private sector companies, as well as funding to local authorities through the MANS project. The entire programme of €200 million as originally designated comprised grant assistance to the existing broadband services in the regions. There were two calls for proposals, and companies like Esat BT had three contracts for DSL. Eircom got one contract for DSL, Crossan Cable one contract for cable, ESB Telecom one contract for fibre and Nevada tele one contact for co-location in switches.

In Limerick recently I launched the southern ring of the ESB Telecom national fibre backbone. This is a fairly important contract where, if my memory serves me correctly, approximately €49.2 million will be spent on the ESB network. The network will form a figure of 8, will be 1,500 km long, and uses the ESB's main transmission lines as a carrier for fibre optic cables. The ESB has quite an ingenious method for doing this using a heavy machine which sits on the wires and mechanically wraps the fibre optic cable around the existing wires, moving from that section past the pylon and on to the next section. The southern loop of that is now complete and the northern loop will be completed in early summer.

Eircom and Esat BT have rolled out about 600, 000 DSL capability and over 105 telephone exchanges will have been DSL enabled this year. The Nevada tele project will make the lease line available in the north west. These projects have received significant funding.

There are a number of gaps in the first phase which we are trying to address but Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Clare, Sligo, Longford, and Kerry did not apply. After the first phase has been implemented and reviewed, we will consider moving on to the subsequent phases, bringing in another 67 towns and ultimately rolling out to 132 nationwide, I think. That is for another day, the initial phase is to see how this beds in as it is an expensive programme.

I was in the Czech Republic last week where I discussed the issue with my Czech counterpart. He was quite astounded to learn that the Government here is funding separate broadband roll out to the main company. The Czech position is quite similar to ours in that the state is half owner of a company but the market is quite open. They were interested to learn that despite our move to an open market the Government has to intervene to create competition and to create connectivity in areas such as Gweedore.

The first 19 areas are Cork, Limerick, Galway, Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford, Dungarvan, Clonmel, Athlone, Mullingar, Portlaoise, Tullamore, Roscommon, Ballina, Letterkenny, Carrick-on-Shannon, Manorhamilton and Bunbeg. It is quite possible that, with the downturn in the telecoms markets, many of the existing companies would not move into such areas.

From that perspective, I will relate to you the experience of the Czech Republic, where they believe that the open market would solve everything. They admitted that in their country, which has a very high proportion of mobile phones - use being slightly higher than our own - in certain peripheral areas, access to both mobile phones and fixed lines is less than desired. However, they have invested hugely in their infrastructure in recent years. Some time ago we set aside €300,000 and requested a call for wireless local area networks. Some 29 proposals were made to conduct trials of the technology using the exempted spectrum. Companies in Trinity College, Cork and Dundalk, as well as O2 and Esat BT, were successful after independent evaluation. Out of the 29, those five came forward. They will be conducting trials of the digital hub wireless LAN at Trinity College, in the Mahon area of Cork, in Westport, in the conference centre at the RDS, in the ferry terminal in Dún Laoghaire and in hotel hotspots around Dublin, Limerick and Galway. Depending on how well that operates, we will examine the possibility of assisting in rolling it out further.

I have said to my officials that, as discussed in recent weeks with the Houses of the Oireachtas, the Office of Public Works and my own Department, I wanted to examine the possible application of wireless technology here in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Two applications were identified for further consideration: the provision of wireless technology in committee rooms to allow Deputies use laptop computers for viewing documents electronically, thus avoiding the need to install rows of permanent monitors on all desks; and more importantly, the provision of wireless technology in public areas around the Oireachtas. The relevant bodies are actively considering that at the moment. It would have to go before a committee of the House, but I would like to think that it would be approved and that we could then proceed to pilot it to publicise the fact that such technology exists. I accept that wireless LAN technology has security issues that are currently unresolved. However, I believe that, with the proper encryption, it could solve many of our problems regarding peripheral areas, for we must recognise that we will not be able to install fibre optic cable in every nook and cranny of the country.

There are obviously broader issues. I assume that the committee is aware that the Government entered into a contract with Global Crossing in 1999 for the provision of two new telecommunication cables affording seamless onward connectivity to 36 European cities and across the Atlantic to America. The Irish ring of the Global Crossing network is now complete and operational, coinciding with the downturn in the telecoms market - there is no doubt about that. However, we see it as an investment in the future that gives us 15 times the existing capability. Despite the fact that telecoms are in a recession, they will rebound, and there is already some evidence that the investment that we have made in the Global Crossing connectivity project is of very great interest to a number of operators when it comes to inward investment. That is the infrastructure, Chairman. I know that you are to see my colleague, Deputy Hanafin, later regarding the e-government initiative, which is her responsibility.

The other part of my responsibility is regulatory issues, and I have not really briefed the committee on that. As you know, the legislation passed by the previous Government established a Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg, from 1 December 2002. That is now up and running. I gave policy directions to it on 21 December regarding key policy priorities, particularly the introduction of flat-rate Internet access. The policy directions were issued first in draft form, after which there was public consultation. That has now been completed and the final version of the directions was issued on 21 February.

I have said publicly that, since coming to office, I have listened to almost every group in existence and received diametrically opposed views from literally everyone. Depending on which group one talks to, one hears a different version. However, two matters have impressed themselves on my mind. The first is the need for greater access to Internet connectivity. Whether that is at the slow speed of 56 Kbps or at the much faster speed required by general business or heavy users in the home is one aspect. Part of it concerns the roll-out of LAN, the ESB and all the others. The other issue concerns prices, which are far too high, particularly for such things as digital subscriber lines and the faster rate, even at residential level.

Yesterday I discussed with Mr. Henry Tang, the Hong Kong Secretary for Commerce, Industry and Technology, how far they were ahead in the area. They are ahead of us in certain fields, but it is interesting that we are ahead in others. When it comes to such things as metropolitan area network, MANs, it is easier for a place such as Hong Kong to roll out broadband, since most of its people live in high-rise apartments. Ireland, on the other hand, particularly in peripheral areas, is sparsely populated. There are such structural difficulties, but generally speaking, we are on a par with Hong Kong. Our penetration of SMEs in much higher, and many of their SMEs are fairly old family companies who might not take on new technology as quickly as a more modern country such as Ireland.

I am returning to my policy direction regarding flat-rate Internet access call origination, FRIACO. The reason for our low percentage use of the Internet and computers in homes in comparison with other countries is high prices. If prices were reduced, people would use them, and I made those points very strongly to the service providers. Thankfully, Eircom, for example, has agreed to halve its DSL price as of this month, thus bringing it down to the same level as in the UK, which is comparable to many other, though not all, European countries. Eircom will roll it out to 105 exchanges, and around 750,000 users will have DSL if they want it. Ultimately, as I have said time and again, particularly to people such as Eircom management, the price is the prohibitive barrier to getting more people to use the Internet. By reducing prices, one can increase volume. This was the experience in Hong Kong, too, where they have many more service providers but the cost to the public is lower. The companies involved are all making profits, albeit smaller than if only two operators were involved.

Flat-rate Internet access at the slow speed of 56kb will increase the level of usage in residences. We all worry that if our children are on the Internet, it works like a taxi-meter and the longer they are logged on, the more it will cost. However, a flat-rate system, whereby one pays the same amount per month, irrespective of usage, will increase demand and usage.

The Department is also discussing the possibility of liaising with some of the major telco companies as well as major suppliers of computers, of which there are many, on increasing the demand side. There is no point in installing expensive cable around the country at a high cost to the taxpayer, if there is not going to be an increase in usage. There are many pieces to the jigsaw, including access, price and applications.

We are looking closely at the experience in South Korea where 95% of home Internet usage is for games, whereas the corresponding figure here is quite low. Obviously, people using the Internet at home for games will demand higher and higher speeds. There is a huge niche market upon which we can build and from which companies can make profits.

At the end of the roll-out period for the 19 towns, we will have a better feel for where we are going. Things are happening very quickly in this area and by that time the wireless local area network trials will be over. We are approaching this matter slowly but we are coming from a low base. In 1997, the Government's expenditure in this sector was, in effect, 0%. With the roll-out of broadband this year and next, we will be spending in the region of 7,500% more than in 1997. In anyone's book, that is quite significant.

I appreciate the work the committee undertook when visiting Seattle and my officials are aware of the report that was produced, particularly in relation to wireless local area networks. That report will inform us as to how we should move forward on this matter.

Is the Minister concerned about the Global Information Report, 2002-2003, which put Ireland in 21st place in the world in terms of technology? Is he worried also about the survey in the January issue of the global politics magazine Foreign Policy which put Ireland in 17th place? In addition, a Dublin Chamber of Commerce report rated Ireland 14th out of 15 EU cities for the roll-out of technology. Speaking in the Dáil last week, I said we could very easily be in single digits with the work that is currently being undertaken by the Government. Does the Minister have a view on that? Does he think he is getting enough money from the Government to advance the programme, or should the Department be getting more? Will he address the committee on the CAIT - community aided information technology - programme which was introduced by the former Minister for Public Enterprise, Senator O’Rourke? It was a great initiative that dealt with the digital divide in local communities, but I wonder how many such projects were launched. Has the Department undertaken any evaluation of that project? The project has stopped and I wonder if it was successful. Are there any plans to re-establish the CAIT programme under the aegis of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources thus continuing this initiative?

The Minister is obviously aware of the South Korean experience and the fact that 12 million Koreans have been trained in computers and Internet access by the government there. I would be grateful if the Minister could address those points.

There are a number of initiatives going on at present. For instance, my Department, An Post, and the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, under Deputy Ó Cuív, are implementing Internet kiosks in rural post offices in CLÁR areas. They have been very successful in attracting significant public attention. I will be saying more about that programme as it develops.

Under the changes made following the last general election, the CAIT programme has transferred to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. My Department is currently working with the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, on raising Internet awareness in areas of the country that are currently underserved in that respect. We will examine the possibility of complementing the regional broadband infrastructure with a scheme to roll out a programme costing approximately €2 million annually, aimed at peripheral communities with high unemployment. Such communities would not otherwise have a chance of accessing broadband technology. That is quite apart from the possibility created by wireless LANs.

The Chairman cited a number of reports but one's information depends on what report one reads. Many of them are based on dated information but I accept that, to a certain extent, we are coming late to this sector. In 1997, we were relying on the private sector to provide all these services, but that sector did not respond as quickly as it should have due to structural issues and the downturn in the market. We made a specific commitment in 2001 and 2002 and I have already referred to that report.

The report by the World Economic Forum dealt solely with DSL and cable modem applications. It was measured last autumn and did not take account of the Eircom lease of programmes which are being rolled out. There are approximately 600,000 DSL-enabled lines, which represent up to 40% of the lines in the country but - and this is the point I have been making since I became Minister - the price is too high. When Eircom, in particular, introduces its DSL product at €45 per month, which is half the existing price, the level of up-take will dramatically increase with proper marketing.

When I visited Limerick, Galway and Ballina, I said there was no point in the Government spending taxpayers' money to put fibre-optic cable underground in such places if it will remain unused. We need as many institutions as possible to avail of such services which must be marketed aggressively. I said the same thing at the launch of the ESB project, which will cost €50 million. Part of the reason it is doing it is to create the required competition in the existing network and infrastructure. Despite the opening of the market, it could be said that it is physically slow, but it has improved in recent times.

There are other indications, including the world economic forum report which places us in the top quartile or the top third of 82 countries surveyed. We are in the top third for availability of mobile access Internet and the top quartile for sophistication of buyers. We are in the top third for public Internet access, for quality of education usage and for the cost of off-peak mobile calls. Ireland is ranked 11th in growth competitiveness in that report and from a macro-economic environment index relating to that we are ranked second in the world. There are statistics that rate us as being low on certain services when compared with others. However, there are other statistics that show this country clearly ahead of many other countries.

Based on my discussion with Mr. Henry Tang, the Hong Kong Secretary for Commerce, Industry and Technology, they are ahead of us on the rollout of infrastructure but we are ahead of them on many usage measurements.

I thank the Minister for giving us the presentation. How can we best feed in the work we are doing? Does the Minister foresee having to make a similar intervention or to instruct the regulator on the issue of broadband as he has done on the issue of flat rate Internet access? Is that the key issue on which this committee needs to work in order to try to aid the Minister and the Department on any such intervention to introduce greater competition or link up the competitive elements? Will that be the next step? Will the three-month timeframe for completing our work be useful in terms of a possible instruction to the regulator?

The policy directive that I issued on 21 February specifically referred to broadband networks as follows:

The commission shall in the exercise of its functions take into account the national objective regarding broadband rollout. The Government wishes to ensure the widespread availability of open access affordable always-on broadband infrastructure and services for business and citizens on a balanced regional basis within three years, on the basis of the utilisation of the range of existing and emerging technologies and broadband speeds appropriate to specific categories of services and customers.

The Deputy is correct in saying that a relatively short timeframe is required for all these matters. We would appreciate the views expressed by this committee over the three-month timeframe. We do not claim to have all the knowledge on this, which is why I intend to travel to a number of countries, like South Korea, to learn from what they are doing.

Does the Minister envisage his Department having to give instructions to the regulator on this area?

It depends on how things pan out. While we have been quite specific on that, it is up to the independent regulatory office to implement those policy directives. If it finds there are difficulties in that respect, we would obviously have to go again. However, we will keep it under constant review.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. The purpose of this committee is to produce a report, which we hope will help the Minister in providing a service that is desperately needed as opposed to being necessarily critical. I recognise the progress on broadband rollout, particularly in the past five to six months. The efforts on that rollout had been hopelessly inadequate for the previous five years and had led to real frustration among many interested parties, in particular SMEs. As a result the public representatives in this room were lobbied by many people to try to get this improved.

The key issues seem to be price, choice of service provider and access to a broadband facility. Am I correct in saying Eircom will not be able to introduce the new service recently announced without at the same time providing a flat rate wholesale pricing structure to allow competitors to enter the market? I understand that ComReg will insist on that wholesale price being agreed and in place before any new retail pricing structures are introduced. This relates to a range of service provision and not just flat rate always-on Internet access.

I understand the Minister has recently set up a strategy group, modelled on a similar UK based strategy group, to advise him on this area. Who are the members of that group and does it include the regulator? As ComReg is the body that will have the responsibility to enforce competition, it is important that it is represented on that group.

Today I received an email, which states:

Under the Communications (Regulations) Act 2002 ComReg was given the power to pursue an operator for a fine of up to €4 million or 10% of its turnover. This type of power is very important to ensure that the regulator can do its job effectively.

Is the Minister aware that these enforcement powers will lapse when a new set of EU directives are transposed into Irish law, which is due to happen in July 2003? As a result of this, does the Minister have plans to introduce new primary legislation to restore powers to ComReg? I would like some clarity on this.

Is it true that the total amount invested in pilot projects on wireless technologies so far is €300,000? If that is the case, can the Minister indicate the kinds of moneys that will be available to promote a further rollout of wireless technologies? When one considers we are spending €64 million in 2003 and 2004 on fibre ring, I contend that wireless technology offers us far more capacity in relation to the end mile - or the first mile as some people want to call it - in linking SMEs and households to a broadband infrastructure. What funds does the Minister hope to secure for that area should the pilot projects be successful?

The Minister will be aware that in the south west of County Cork we have an EU sponsored project that facilitates the beaming in of broadband facility via satellite. There is great optimism among members of Cork County Council that this will provide solutions in the rural areas of south west Cork and Kerry. Is the Minister exploring funding these areas as well as wireless technology? In relation to fibre rings, which is the third important area for roll-out, we have been promised phase 1 clearly to 19 towns, costing €64 million. That is very welcome, particularly in Cork from both my point of view and that of the chair, where this process has begun. When this was announced we were also promised that phases 2 and 3 would follow phase 1 without delay and 64 towns were involved. Can we get an assurance that once the 19 towns are complete we will not stop there and sit on our laurels but that we will push on and secure the necessary investment for that? If so, when is that likely to happen?

I will allow the Minister to respond.

I may have more questions later.

The Deputy can put down parliamentary questions any time he wants.

We may have time later for questions but we will not ask too many at the one time.

On retail and the Eircom product, that body is obliged as a significant market player, under EU regulations, to provide both. The Deputy is correct in saying ComReg is working with Eircom to have a wholesale price simultaneously with the retail price. In my discussions with Eircom they have acknowledged that that will be the case. While there was some publicity about the reduction in price, it was on the basis that they were committed to allowing competitors into this area also.

Has the wholesale price been agreed?

Not to my knowledge but there are ongoing discussions on this. I am not involved with pricing, which is an independent issue, but I am aware that there are discussions going on.

Regarding the EU directives coming in in July and the issue of penalties after the transposition of those directives, we are in discussions with the Attorney General on the penalties issue. We will be looking to a situation which will be at least the same if not stricter in this area but there are fairly complex legal and constitutional issues in this area.

Regarding wireless LAN, €300,000 was put aside for projects shown to be innovative. Eircom and O2 have expressed significant intentions regarding the roll-out of wireless LAN all over the country and its availability. For example, O2 has a national programme for roll-out of wireless LAN. It is an emerging technology and we have to advance with some caution in this regard; the strong advice is that it is a system which can be attacked and the security element is something we need to be certain of and those issues, in relation to what we are doing in the Houses of the Oireachtas, are part of the present discussions.

On the satellite issue, Esat had a programme a year or two ago called VSAT, funded to the tune of €500,000. In relation to the fibre rings, it was always intended that that would be done in three phases and that the first phase would cover major areas, though a place like Bunbeg was included. Those areas were picked first and then, depending on the success of that and the emerging technologies - things have happened dramatically and there are those in the telecommunications sector who say we should not spend on these areas because there are emerging technologies or because there is copper in the ground or whatever. I do not accept those arguments. My view is that we must allow for competition in the infrastructure whereby people have choice, which, as the Deputy said, is the significant element along with price.

I can give the Deputy the names of those on the strategy group. There has been a fair amount of discussion at Government level, headed by the Taoiseach, on the e-government committee. I and the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Hanafin, are members of that committee. People like Ira Magaziner have been a tremendous help to the Government and he made a major presentation some months ago. He was involved in Telesis many years ago and he said we are at a very significant point——

Was he a technology adviser to President Clinton?

He was and he has been advising us on the road we are taking. The doubts about what we are doing were dispelled by his view that we are taking the correct route and that we should move along this road. Discussions with him and others suggest strongly that we should have a partnership with the telecommunications companies. Because of that we launched the strategy group, whose first meeting I attended, and it is going about its business. Eircom is represented by Pat Galvin and Esat BT by David Taylor, NTL by Ed Brophy, Chorus by Willie Fagan, ALTO by Iarla Flynn, the Department of Finance by Jim O'Brien and Paul Byrne and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources by Eamonn Molloy and Niall O'Donoghue. Microsoft Science Foundation of Ireland, Iona Technologies, our Department and HEANet are represented on the broadband expert group.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and thank him for the presentation. The committee is very anxious to support the major national programme which is needed to get the country on fast pervasive broadband. The Minister loves to refer to 1997, as if that was when history began. He should refer to 2002, as we are near the end of the sixth year of this Administration and most of the problems relating to the tables read out by the chairman, and the reviews of the country's performance, relate to the performance of the Minister's Government and his colleague, former Deputy O'Rourke, in the last five years. It was the Minister's Government, in its previous Administration, which failed the country and left us sliding down the lists.

I was going to raise in the House the issue of a hi-tech company on Dublin's north side, Seronics, which is due to close on 6 April and move its machinery to Asia. Another colleague was going to raise the closure of a section of Honeywell in Waterford, which is moving to Bangalore in India. The Government's failure has been very serious for the country's competitive ability and in keeping the economy at the cutting edge. Despite the Minister's reference to 3,000 or 4,000 high speed users, in general terms is it not true that he has failed to produce that kind of linked economy? Perhaps we should have just one e-minister, not two. The Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, who is to appear later before this committee has special responsibility for the information society as regards the Government but in Britain and other states they have decided that one person with a clear vision for the country should take sole responsibility.

The Minister has now introduced a third Minister into the equation, Deputy Ó Cuív will be responsible for little boxes in the post offices on the western fringes of the country. Eircom has threatened recently that it will not fulfil the universal service obligation. Does the Minister accept that this is the case and that LANs are the only hope for remote areas such as the Bere peninsula, west Kerry, Mayo or north west Donegal in terms of access to high speed broadband? A hallmark of the Government has been a more divided society than ever before. It may be that as a result of this Government's policy 60% or 70% of the country will be connected and using fast broadband while the rest of the population is excluded. In other words, there will be a serious new social divide between those who have access and those who do not. The monthly fee of €45 is too high for many of the people I represent. Maybe at the outset the Government should have regarded broadband access in the same light as supplying electricity or water in every home. In that respect the Government has failed. Will e-exclusion be a result of the Government's failures in this whole area?

What is the timeframe for introducing competition to the market? The Minister expects in June to have FRIACO. Is that on schedule in relation to the ComReg directive? Will it be available? Eircom seems to have a long tradition of predatory pricing and selling for services such that when competitors appear to have secured an extra customer they find that Eircom responds with a different kind of package. Has the Minister covered that in his response to Deputy Coveney?

Deputy Broughan always wants to be political but I can be political too.

We are politicians. It is a political issue.

The Deputy said that I am fond of looking back to 1997 and I am, but I do not have to go back that far on this issue. It is just as well that the Deputy's party has not been in Government in the last eight months because its policy documents prior to the last election did not mention broadband once, as I told him before.

I meant to bring the document in to the Minister the last time we discussed this in the Dáil. We had the document before the Minister.

The Labour Party said it would bring in broadband in the national spatial strategy document and it has not even brought in a national spatial strategy document. So the Deputy should not complain to me about it.

We have both of them. I think the Minister should withdraw that remark.

We cannot see any commitment from the Labour Party to proper broadband access.

I will go upstairs and get the documents for the Minister. He never reads our policies, that is the problem.

In relation to FRIACO the second policy direction that I issued in draft and final form relates to that, and it insisted that ComReg report to the Minister on progress every month until it is implemented. We do not have the first report because the first policy direction came out on 21 February last. As far as we are aware, however, all parties are agreed on this issue and we believe that it is on track for implementation by June.

Everything else that the Deputy said was general and not particularly constructive. The Deputy has to consider this in the context of the incredible downturn in the telecommunications market over the past five or six years. Only yesterday Deutsche Telekom announced a €25 billion loss for last year. France Telecom is in a terrible position at the moment. Since March 2000, when the Nasdaq peaked, more than Stg£778 billion has been wiped off British company shares and that figure is dwarfed by the US$4,195 billion drop on the US Standard and Poor's Index. It is estimated that job losses amount to 750,000 worldwide in the telecom market.

I repeat what I said about the Czech Republic, a country for which the Deputy might have some love, considering the type of political system it had until recently. My counterpart there believed that the free market would take care of all the country's telecom ills and was surprised to learn that we were investing heavily to balance the situation in an open market. Ira Magaziner and other experts have said that the route we are taking is absolutely necessary in order for us to provide access to peripheral areas. I have often said that the roll out of broadband is probably more important to those areas than a proper roadway or other infrastructure. This is the top priority because it puts them on a level equal to the rest of the country, including Dublin where connectivity is as good as it is anywhere. This is not a recent event. The Deputy only has to look at the experience of Fexco of which the Labour Party's former esteemed leader might well be a director. It is operating in one of the remotest parts of the country, and I say that with due respect to Deputy Healy-Rae, because it was possible to bring leased lines into that remote area.

The country is well served with copper. A large part of the country could be DSL enabled because of the existing infrastructure. The problems are price and choice. Choice drives down the price. That is the big conundrum. It is no different here than in most European countries.

The Minister is saying we have a private monopoly which was possibly a mistake in our long-term investment strategy because it will get the top price and to change that we must issue instructions to the regulator to try and bring more competition into the market. Would he agree with that?

I agree with the Deputy. I do not want to personalise this between one competitor and another as they are independent now. Again, returning to the Czech experience, a 100% state-owned company that previously did everything has been reduced to 82% of the market and is now 51% state-owned. While visiting the Czech Republic, we met with that company and the small independent providers who are trying to break into the market. We heard diametrically opposed views expressed - one group saying everything is rosy and the other saying the opposite. The position here is similar here although probably not as bad. Recently there has been an unbundling of the local loop. The Department believes that, in the near future, emerging technologies, such as 3G, wireless LAN and satellite, will overtake the fixed-line infrastructure. Over the next few years, particularly driven by the downturn in telcos, many of these emerging technologies will fill in the gaps which exist.

There are a number of high-powered, knowledgeable people on the strategy group. Why did the Minister choose not to have the regulator or a representative of the regulator on board? The regulator is the one individual who can force competition into the market place. She could make a valuable contribution to any strategy plans the Department is going to implement. I am glad the Minister finds it amusing——

My officials remind me that it is "they" not "she".

It is indeed "they" but "she" as part of "they" has a significant role to play. Unless we break the effective monopoly, even though it is a private one now, we will continue to be frustrated with the provision of fixed-line broadband services. Furthermore, the concept of the digital hub, although it has received some mediocre press recently, is a good one. Are there plans to promote this outside Dublin? It seems to make sense to do so, particularly in key destinations where fibre rings are being laid - Cork, Limerick, Galway. This is a matter that should be pursued if we are serious about moving investment away from Dublin, and its enormous surrounding areas such as Citywest, into other parts of the country.

I want to raise two brief points and a footnote with the Minister. The Global Crossing contract was built by 360 Networks, a north-side company. Who maintains that now? The Minister said a great deal about DSL. Is it sufficiently fast to encourage householders to sign up for it and use the Internet widely?

In north-west Dublin, new towns the size of Dundalk and Drogheda will be built over the next eight to ten years. Why has the Minister not laid down conditions that developers ensure high speed broadband access throughout these developments which may contain up to 30,000 new households? Nowhere in the development plan or in the conditions of An Bord Pleanála can I find any reference to broadband network access. The Minister and Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, have been remiss in not bringing this to the attention of the construction industry.

My Department did not feel it was appropriate that ComReg should be represented on the strategy group. This is a strategy group between Government and the industry. It is a job in itself to get the industry representatives of the group to agree among themselves as some of them have very different views. ComReg exists to implement Government policy and legislation. The strategy group is more a think-tank for the industry and the Government. It was felt preferable to leave it at that.

The digital hub——

I can assure the Minister he will get a neutral opinion from this sub-committee in three months' time.

Thank you, Deputy. I do not accept that the digital hub gets mediocre press. Recently six companies, of the many who wanted to go into the digital hub, are now there——

I was referring to the cash-flow problems. If the Minister was in the Dáil during the Second Stage debate on the digital hub Bill, he would have heard a discussion on this problem of securing promised Government funding.

I was in the Czech Republic when Second Stage of the Bill was taken. Funding has not been cut and the agency received what it wanted. Significant projects are currently examining the digital hub which is broadband enabled - the roll-out of broadband connectivity in the Coombe area was additional to the roll-out in the 19 towns. There is an understanding - and I believe it is written into the legislation - that the agency will interact with regional areas. It was primarily intended for that particular area in Dublin but it will also interact with agencies outside Dublin, particularly in the area of education. A number of projects are already linked with educational institutes outside Dublin.

The company, 360 Networks, was taken over by Columbia Ventures. Later this week, my officials will be meeting to discuss future plans with Columbia Ventures. My Department has had discussions with the Department of Environment and Local Government on the issue of broadband access in new urban developments. The Department of the Environment and Local Government would be the primary department in dealing with the building industry and planning guidelines. The Department is aware of our views on this and it is up to it to implement those.

I thank the Minister for setting out Government policy and the areas that need to be addressed. The sub-committee wants to assist "Ireland Incorporated" and not just the Government by looking at the issue of digital readiness. We appreciate that the Minister, from the outset, has stated that he will welcome the report of the sub-committee following our discussions with users, providers and other interested parties. It is hoped that this will assist the Government in its progress in this important area. I am delighted Deputy Coveney and other members recognised the work of the Government in the past few years and the priority given by the current Minister to the roll-out of broadband for which we thank you.

I would like to invite Deputy Hanafin, Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, with responsibility for the information society to address the sub-committee on Government policy and work to date on the planned developments that will deliver the Government business and commerce function through the national high-speed broadband infrastructure.

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to address the sub-committee. It is a good opportunity for me as Minister of State with responsibility for the information society to set out exactly what my role is, as indeed there are many people who misunderstand it.

My role is policy co-ordination between the Departments and agencies responsible for the implementation of the various information society initiatives, and supporting Ministers and Departments in that task. This is the first time such a position has been created, and it shows the Government's commitment to implementing the contents of the New Connections document which, as members will be aware, is the Government's information society action plan.

Certain priorities were set out in that plan covering telecommunications infrastructure, the legal and the regulatory environment, e-government, e-business and indeed life-long learning and e-inclusion. The task of policy co-ordination is managed through different mechanisms. There is a Cabinet sub-committee on the information society, cross-departmental groups such as the e-strategy group of Secretaries-General, the implementation group of Assistant Secretaries and the Information Society Commission which performs an invaluable advisory function. I am also supported directly by the information society policy unit in my Department, represented here today by its director, Mr. Colm Butler. I am also joined by Mr. Victor Galvin, deputy director of Reach, and John Foley of the Department of Finance.

My role involves monitoring the progress in the New Connections document. A first progress report has recently been issued. To clarify matters, individual Ministers retain their own responsibilities for each aspect of the plan, while my role is to be the driving force behind it. Where there are Departmental logjams, as can happen when dealing with cross-departmental issues - information society issues cut across a number of Departments - the Cabinet committee, the implementation group and the policy unit can free things up. That would be the main aim.

In relation to the evolution of e-government, the Government's action plan in January 1999 for the implementation of the information society in Ireland envisaged electronic delivery of public services, dissemination of information through websites and the development of on-line transactional services. The public services broker was approved by Government in May 2000 as the mechanism for supplying central access to informational services, and the current information society action plan sets a target of 2005 for putting on-line the public services that can be delivered electronically.

To date, e-government has concentrated on the development of the Oasis and Basis central information repositories for services to citizens and business respectively. The development of the public services broker, as the central access mechanism for all services, removing the need to know who does what across the public service, and incorporating the Oasis and Basis information in due course, remains a key plank of Government policy. Deputies will be aware that the Reach agency is the responsibility of my colleague the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan. The agency is currently engaged in a procurement process for the delivery of the public services broker.

We are also involved in the continued development of central Government services, such as Revenue on-line services, the Land Registry on-line service and a number of local authority and health board on-line services. We are also developing sectoral access portals, such as the marine portal, designed to address the specific informational and service needs of sectors interacting with Government on a frequent basis.

All of these initiatives are focused primarily on services to clients, which are in harmony with the SMI initiatives. In comparison to other countries, Ireland is doing very well in the e-government area, and last month was ranked with Sweden at the top of the EU in that area. This is important, as e-government is increasingly being used as an indicator of competitiveness.

New Connections sets out the Government objective of bringing on-line, through a single point of contact, all public services which can be delivered electronically. Departments and agencies are pressing ahead with this. In prioritising services for e-enablement, we should place particular priority on projects which give a good return on investment and reflect the level of demand for the particular service or are pivotal in progressing the wider information society agenda. The policy unit in my Department is considering these priorities.

In parallel with the development of e-government, the SMI process initiated in 1994 has been changing the processes and procedures in the public service towards a more citizen-centred approach with greater access to information, the publication of statements of strategy, quality customer services initiatives and regulatory reform. I welcome the fact that matters related to the information society have been included in the new draft social partnership agreement for the first time. These modernisation initiatives are running in parallel with the e-government process of transformation.

However, e-government is no longer simply about multiple websites for service information. It is about enabling clients to tailor what they get, to eliminate unnecessary intermediaries and wasteful information collection, to speed up service delivery and to transform the way organisations operate, using a more holistic approach to serving the client in a wider context of efficiency and effectiveness. In that respect it moves beyond changing the way public servants work, and focuses on the structures and mechanisms which make up the broader corporate public service.

Thinking is moving on and is starting to focus on integration, or collaboration, for more than just service delivery. It will also focus on policy processing and internal administration, all of which is being electronically enabled and is, indeed, something we hope to see this year, particularly in relation to e-Cabinet. We are now starting to talk about the corporate public service, where there is potential to streamline our administrative processes and share good practice and common procedures. We need to consider what the new public service will look like, because it will clearly involve a change in culture and a change in how it will work.

The Cabinet committee on the information society has recently discussed this issue and it is proposed that the e-strategy group of Secretaries-General will examine it, develop a vision of a transformed corporate public service and derive a set of broad principles and strategies to underpin the process. The New Connections document indicates the huge progress that can be made in providing a service for citizens, enabling them to do their business more efficiently. It also indicates the progress that can be made in relation to the public service and how its business is conducted in times of change, using the most up-to-date technology available, while remembering we work for the citizens, using the technology as an enabler.

Quite recently, when we were in the United States, we met representatives from the Center for Digital Government, which was conducting some audits in states around the US. It had a league table showing the preparedness of each state regarding the infrastructure for broadband Internet access and e-government. Does the Minister of State propose to introduce an audit system here? Is there a league table of Departments, with one at number one at another at number 15? Does the Minister of State have any plans to encourage local authorities to introduce such a league table? My Colleague, Deputy Broughan, advises me that Dublin City Council is very well prepared, as is Cork City Council. I cannot speak for any of the other councils at this stage.

The other question I had in my mind - which comes through here a great deal, as it did in America - is whether there should be a single Department co-ordinating all the work on telecommunications technology, the information society and broadband infrastructure. I am delighted the Minister of State has someone to advise her from the Department of Finance. Is that Department responsible for any stumbling blocks when it comes to providing future funding for the important information society and the roll-out of infrastructure, connectivity and accessibility for the citizens mentioned?

There are no plans for league tables. However, we aim to encourage everyone to improve services and make more of them available on-line, to learn from each other and share information. We are seeing that at local authority level, where, under the auspices of the co-ordinating body for the local authorities, one county will work particularly on housing on-line while another examines planning and another procurement. Kerry has been developing procurement, Laois planning and Donegal a more integrated service for citizens. It is a matter of councils sharing that information with each other and not creating competition. That spirit of co-operation is there and is working quite well.

We would envisage that each Department could make huge progress, although some are much further advanced than others. I personally met the Secretary General of each Department, and talked through what their Departments were doing and what services they were able to provide on-line. It was interesting for each of them to listen to the others, since they were able to see how far behind they might be. The Department of Agriculture and Food, for example, has made a great deal of headway regarding on-line forms and EU information. Others could be making much more progress. It will happen with such things as passports and motor tax forms. Some of those things are happening, and some need to happen, but there is no question of creating a league table to encourage competition between Departments.

It is the story of my short life in Government that, no matter what job I get, someone asks if we should have a dedicated Department for it. When I was Minister of State with responsibility for children, the question was asked if there should be a Department of Children. The answer was no, since the matter crossed through so many different Departments. The same answer applies here now. One cannot separate infrastructure from communications. The regulatory environment obviously belongs in an overall framework of legislation and regulation. E-learning, covering skills and so on, must be linked with adult education. It would not be possible to separate all those elements and bring them under one Department. However, by having a co-ordinating role based in the Department of the Taoiseach, one is well positioned to draw people together, if only to prompt them all to keep meeting their targets and keep moving together.

On funding, we are all conscious that the pie is not as big this year as previously, but it is not affecting the major work which we aim to do, and there are many good initiatives which do not necessarily cost a great deal of money. That is certainly where we will be placing our emphasis. However, there is still a very large amount of money available, both from the information society fund and under all the various headings mentioned.

Is the Minister of State saying that, ultimately, the Taoiseach is the e-Minister? I was just saying to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources that we do not seem to have what many other governments have. I accept that Deputy Hanafin is the e-Minister when it comes to Government information. However, we do not seem to have a ministerial supremo for both the hardware - we were talking to the other Minister about competition - and the content. Is the Minister of State essentially saying that the Taoiseach is ultimately responsible? I asked her last week at Taoiseach's Questions about the Reach programme. What is the problem with the tendering for that? We hear from spokespeople for communications interests and get a great deal of e-mail from interested companies and commentators. There seems to be a real problem with the tendering. Why is the public services broker not up and running already? This Government is nearly a year old. When I was my party's social affairs spokesperson, the former Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was always talking about the public services broker. Is there a serious problem with the tendering for Reach and the establishment of the public services broker?

The Minister of State explained to me both in the Dáil and afterwards about the matter of e-procurement. We still seem to be light years behind many other administrations on that. The costs the Government must shoulder are sometimes very heavy. For example, in my own neck of the woods, where the community, with the help of some Government agencies, built a large public building for €2 million or €3 million, a contemporaneous State building built by the Office of Public Works cost around €16 million. I wonder if it is value for money. Are we very lethargic? As I mentioned in the Dáil last week, many companies, for example, one in an estate outside Galway, have on-line tendering all the time for their procurement. Should the State and all the local administrations be up and running in the same territory? If we are serious about the Minister of State's status and a new society, surely the issue should be speedily addressed.

We have all been busy over the weekend meeting our constituents. I am thinking of the kinds of cases on which one would be working for constituents - representations, a great deal of work on housing, planning and related matters, social welfare, some work on taxation, passports, issues to do with PSV driving licences, work visas for people in the country and health waiting lists, particularly in orthodontics. Are we not still a good distance away from those citizens being able to sit down in front of their computers and contact the Revenue Commissioners, Fingal County Council, or whoever, there and then? Think of the gamut of issues which Deputies know so well. How far are we from being able to use a public services broker and everything else the Minister of State promises and really have an on-line Government which is in touch with every citizen?

Even on the day of my appointment I do not think it was announced that I was the e-Minister. Newspapers took it up that that was the case. My title states that I have special responsibility for the information society, which is quite a different thing. Individual Cabinet Ministers maintain responsibility for what comes within their remit. Even at a different level, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Michael Ahern, is responsible for e-commerce. It is quite scattered, which is why the co-ordinating role has to remain within the Department of the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach is not the e-Minister and I suppose I, too, am denying that I am the e-Minister.

I, too, would love to have seen Reach up and running by now. It is a hugely ambitious project and its equal has not been done anywhere in the world. What we are aiming to do is much more complex and sophisticated than anybody else has done. Given the amount of investment that will go into it, it needs to be right. It is now at the stage of procurement and, all going well, that should be completed in the next couple of months and we hope to see the first phase of Reach by the end of this year. We must bear in mind that Reach services.ie is up and running and is providing access to services, to forms and to information in relation to a wide variety of areas. Members have already referred to Revenue, and many more services need to come on-stream. Other Departments are already working towards services in areas such as passports and motor taxation. The General Register Office is also using it for birth, death and marriage certificates. Major issues, such as security and privacy, must be overcome. Ultimately, we will be working towards an interactive service.

We are probably not at the point Deputy Broughan described, when the clients who come into our clinic will be able to do all this for themselves. There are two issues. First, the system must be there and the information must be available. Second, the individual must be capable of accessing it. A twin-pronged approach is required. The aim is to build on the services that exist. At the moment, 102 different services are available on Reach and 42 agencies, including local authorities, health boards and central Government, have signed up to it. With all of those continuing to develop and change in parallel with the building of the architecture of Reach, we should be able to reach a position where we have a usable service by the end of this year.

I have no doubt that e-procurement would save a fortune. Kerry County Council has found that its e-procurement site is saving vast sums of money. The only people who are unhappy about it are the newspapers which are losing advertising. Instead of pages and pages of advertisements, there is now just a small advertisement referring readers to the website. There is an e-tender website, which gives the information, but one cannot tender on-line. At the moment there are about 10,000 registered suppliers to the site, 1,000 contracting authority users and 45,000 visitors per month. A number of EU directives are pending in the area of public procurement and will have a bearing on it. We are at the first stage, that of giving information, but we do not yet have the facility of tendering online.

I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. I am still uncertain as to whether there is such a thing as an e-Minister. Before the last election this was requested time and time again by interested parties who wanted a political figurehead driving the issue of infrastructural development in the area of e-government and related areas. I had made the assumption that this political figurehead was Deputy Hanafin, but I am in doubt about that now. Perhaps she can clarify that for me. I understand her point that a number of Ministers share this responsibility. However, that is why we need an e-Minister to take responsibility for the areasof other Departments which come under thee-government umbrella.

At an earlier meeting of this committee, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Michael Ahern, brought up the question of wireless technology in the Oireachtas. Does the Minister of State have responsibility in that area? It is being indicated that funding is not available for wireless LAN applications in Leinster House.

That is a matter for the Office of Public Works.

Surely that is part of e-government.

I seek an assurance with regard to voting in the Dáil Chamber and arising from the virus in the system the week before last.

E-government and e-parliament are separate issues. Let us not get our wires crossed.

The league table of e-readiness is a good idea and something the Minister of State should consider further. Competitiveness between local authorities would spur them to share information and support developments within counties, as opposed to the other way around, and e-readiness would become part of county development plans, in which it is not now a main feature.

I was formerly a member of the strategic management initiative committee. We questioned the Revenue Commissioners in detail about their plans to increase the e-capacity of their service. They have made really good strides and should be used as an example for Departments. Targets should be set for Departments, particularly for the Departments of Health and Children, Education and Science and Social and Family Affairs. Developments in this area could lead to significant progress and cost cutting. It is a total nonsense that a school principal cannot go onto the website of the Department of Education and Science to establish the timescale for a school's project. That should be possible. In the same way, people should be able to find out, in an open and transparent way, where they are on a hospital waiting list rather than having to make telephone calls to their GP, call to the hospital or ask their local politicians to make representations. If we are serious about giving information in an open way over the web we need to try to achieve practical things such as that. People would then buy into the concept of e-government. It would then be Deputy Michael Ahern's responsibility to see that people can access information at a reasonable price.

I agree with Deputy Coveney. Taking his definition, I am the e-minister. If the definition includes someone who is driving the agenda, making sure that it happens, then that is the case. If the definition extends to someone who is responsible for all the individual elements of it, then it is not the case. Taking his definition as the one who co-ordinates, gives leadership and drives it, then my portfolio fits that category.

For a moment, I will speak as Chief Whip rather than with my information society cap. The Office of Public Works is responsible for the wireless LAN application in e-parliament. The problem with the recent vote and the virus in the system lay with the voting system being connected to the mainframe of the House, when it should have been a stand alone system. It is my understanding that this system will be changed over to a stand alone one to protect it and to ensure it will not happen in the future.

The suggestion Deputy Coveney made about the county development plans is good. It is opportune that all counties are preparing their development plans - obviously a lot of the impetus will be on the planning and housing elements. Arising out of these suggestions, I will contact the local authorities. It would be very valuable to set out at least some sort of an aim on their part——

Then there would be a way of measuring how county councils are getting on. If they do not have an e-strategy in their development plan, then they should be requested to have one.

Yes, that would be useful. Instead of comparing them with each other, they could be compared with their own targets. I do not buy into this concept of league tables - neither did I when I was a teacher. Each should be measured on the basis of their competence——

I could tell the Minister who is on the top of the league table of governors in the US, and who is at the bottom. However, I better not say.

It works well for the GAA.

Every year we object when the Sunday Tribune, and other papers, compile league tables on which Deputies spoke the longest in the House. We know that is not an accurate reflection of the ability of Deputies. League tables do not always give an accurate picture.

The point I was making was, that in this context, I do not think league tables would be a source of negative competition. To take an example, Cork County Council would be anxious to help Kerry County Council to come up in the league tables. Kildare County Council might be anxious to help their neighbouring counties. It would not be seen as a negative competition, the like of which one sees in school league tables. It could then be used as a tool to target investment by the Government. If the Minister saw that Galway County Council was not up to speed in terms of competitiveness and attracting investment, then Galway could be prioritised for investment and broadband roll-out.

The Minister should introduce a standard of e-readiness for the units of the national and local civil service. We know who is not ready. Instead of saying Galway, Carlow or Dublin is last, we should praise those - going back to the teaching analogy - who reach the standard and ensure that all reach the standard.

Local authorities would have a league table of their own. I am advised that Dublin City Council is considered the most prepared and advanced, while Cork City Council would be two or three.

I welcome the Minister of State and her officials. I have every faith in her abilities. The progress made in this field over the last couple of years has been tremendous. The only way that it can be accomplished is through a proper planned policy, which the Minister of State has implemented. With regard to e-ministers, every constituency in the country should have an "e-Noel O'Flynn". I compliment the Chairman in leading the way. The only worry I have for my constituency is that everything will end up in Cork - it will be the e-centre of the world. We are fortunate to have Deputy O'Flynn in the Chair

because he is knowledgeable on this topic. The other Deputies in Cork are very lucky to have him too. If I had somebody like the Chairman in Longford, I would be digging the hole for broadband. When the Minister of State returns next year, I predict more progress will have been made.

The co-operation between the various local authorities works well. The aim of a league table may be to see who is at the top. In reality everybody focuses on who is at the bottom. I will follow up on the county development plans.

Deputy Coveney is also correct with regard to SMI in particular Departments. The Government has set the requirement that each Department, in its strategy statement, sets out its e-strategy, where it is at and where it is going. That is an aim that every Department must achieve. It is important, though, that they identify services that are worth having online. There is no point in putting up online services for the sake of it. They need to prioritise the services that will be of value to people and ensure these give real information and services for people to avail of.

Deputy Kelly is correct on the progress made. However, it is progress that must be made quickly because of the ever-changing nature of e-systems. The idea of having new connections needs to be reviewed constantly.

As for an e-person in every county, every Minister should be an e-minister. There should not be a need for just one individual. Ultimately, we may arrive at the situation where we do not need anyone responsible for the information society. We may not even need units in the Department of Taoiseach devoted to dealing with the area as we may reach a situation where it is an integral part of every Department and a normal part of their daily work.

What importance is the national broadband network being rolled out by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural resources in delivering the information society? Deputy Coveney mentioned the roll-out the MANs in 19 cities and towns, and that phases 2 and 3 will include 64 towns——

It will include 67.

It will include 67. How does this help in bringing the information society to every citizen with the fastest possible speed of connectivity?

The whole premise of new connections is based on the principle that it is always and readily available with cheap and easy access. The roll-out of broadband is essential to this. There are a number of parallel developments - broadband roll-out, the development of services and the training of people to then use these facilities - that must happen hand in hand. However, I see broadband as central to allthis.

While you mentioned the words "training" and "roll-out", will the Government continue investment until we achieve those objectives? The CAIT programme, initiated by Senator Mary O'Rourke as Minister for Public Enterprise, was successful but then was discontinued. Something needs to replicate the work done by the CAIT programme. It needs to be done in structured programmes throughout the country. These may not take place now. We mentioned earlier that Korea, which has invested heavily in technology and the information society, has trained half of its population. I was delighted to hear training mentioned. It is no good putting the systems in place and providing the information if people do not know how to access it or are not equipped to do so.

A number of training projects have been completed successfully. CAIT was mentioned and 100,000 people were trained in a legal skills programme. We have IT accessibility guidelines for the Disability Authority. Muintir na Tíre has done tremendous work with its members and there are various community and voluntary groups which have provided training. Training is important on a continuous basis. We need to overcome the digital divide. People have been identified as needing particular training. For example, older people and women whose main duties are in the home are poor users of technology. Disabled people also need training.

Huge inroads have been made in training needs. These needs cut across different budgets. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, is looking perhaps at training in the context of the partnerships. Another important issue is availability of and access to PCs in homes. The library service and its scheme for providing Internet access has worked successfully.

There is a queue for computers in most libraries.

The queue proves the success of the scheme. Many people are looking for basic PCs for simple training. We should look at ways to recycle and upgrade out of date equipment for the purposes of training. One need only think of the amount of equipment turned over on a regular basis in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I think we will see developments in that area.

I thank the Minister of State for making her presentation. This sets out for the sub-committee Government policies and the areas that need to be addressed in regard to the information society.

May I ask for a copy in writing of the Minister's priorities? We are putting a report together with the assistance of a consultant and it would be helpful to have those priorities on paper.

What exactly have we achieved or what do we have to achieve in regard to the flagship strategy?

I can direct everybody to the progress report on new connections which is online. It is the first progress report which I am sure all the committee will download and read.

Is there anything to add to that report?

No. We will certainly set out the priorities. Not to be smart about it, the priorities are to deliver new connections and the first progress report tells how far we have got. If there is any further information to add to that I will certainly provide it.

I thank the Minister of State and her officials for attending this evening. I remind the members of the sub-committee that TV3 members are coming in tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. to attend the joint committee.

The sub-committee adjourned at 7.15 p.m. sine die.
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