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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Sep 2004

Independent Electricity Generation: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Harry McCracken, group managing director of Viridian Power & Energy, and Mr. David de Casseres, managing director, power generation. We will hear a presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. We are delighted to have a delegation from Viridian Power & Energy before us.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank Mr. McCracken for submitting briefing material in advance which members have had time to read. I understand the presentation will last between ten and 15 minutes, after which we will take questions. I remind members that we will also meet officials from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to discuss COM (2004) 289, a proposal for a Council regulation. I invite Mr. McCracken to make his presentation.

Mr. Harry McCracken

I thank the Chairman for his welcome and the opportunity to put our views to the joint committee. I introduce my colleague, Mr. David de Casseres, managing director of our power generation business. He and his team built the Huntstown power station just north of Dublin and if we decide to proceed, his team will also manage the project to build our second power station. As managing director of Viridian Power & Energy, I have responsibility for the company's power and energy businesses, North and South.

We will do our best to keep the presentation as succinct as possible. Of necessity, it covers only the main points we would like to put to the joint committee. Notwithstanding the range of views we offer during the presentation, members will find that a recurrent theme will be our emphasis on the creation of a competitive market as the single, overriding objective for the way forward to new market arrangements on the island.

I assume members have a copy of the presentation. The first slide gives the background of Viridian. We own and operate the only large-scale independent power plant in the Republic, the Huntstown power plant commissioned in November 2002. In terms of the station's running, availability and performance, the project has been very successful. Our retail business, Energia, supplies approximately 20% of the competitive market and a number of Ireland's largest customers. We have a growing green business, North and South.

In Northern Ireland, Viridian is the parent company of Northern Ireland Electricity which owns and operates the transmission and distribution networks. We sell to approximately 740,000 customers, essentially the total customer base of the North where part of the market is open to competition and a number of competitive players are operating.

When the market in Northern Ireland was liberalised in 1992, it was decided to deal with any dominant position NIE held.by selling off the power stations the company owned. The process was reinforced by a provision in NIE's licence prohibiting it from becoming involved in generation in Northern Ireland. We may address this issue later.

It is important to understand what should be the goals of a new market. They should be made explicit which has not been the case until now. Security of supply is paramount. Without it price is inconsequential because one has a product that is not fit for the purpose. If we have security of supply, consumers naturally turn their attention to the price they must pay for the product. The goal of a new market arrangement must be to introduce maximum competition in terms of the price of the product. All customers should participate by virtue of the fact that if the market is to bring benefits to customers, nobody should be precluded.

The impact of whatever technology is decided upon to supply the market must be environmentally sustainable. An emerging goal has received some attention recently, namely, that any market arrangements put in place must encourage an all-Ireland market to emerge. Any new arrangement should be tested against these goals at the outset and as the market develops.

While much remains to be done, we should not overlook the significant work achieved thus far. Three new generating plants are in place or under construction, two in the South and one in the North, which is definite progress in terms of the investment people are prepared to make in the market. As I noted, Viridian is the only truly independent power company in the market.

The competitive market has been introduced for business customers and full market opening will take place in the Republic of Ireland as of next year. The problem with full market opening is that if no independent capacity is available to supply it, nothing will happen. At the heart of the new market arrangement is what is known as the wholesale market. We did not agree with the original proposals for this market, which we regarded as overly complex. We put our views forcefully to the regulator. A decision on the design of the new market has been shelved or at least deferred. This, in turn, has been slightly overtaken by the emergence of the proposals for an all-island market. We hope that whatever emerges in the very near future in terms of new market design, it is a good deal more simple than the proposals we have seen to date. I believe that view is shared throughout the industry.

We should briefly address the reasons an all-island market is emerging as a requirement for market design, North and South. Competitive activity is likely to be greater in a larger market with more players. The large customer market in Northern Ireland, for example, benefited from being able to access prices from Great Britain across the Moyle interconnector. In a sense, therefore, bringing a source of independent power into the Northern market has had an effect on the prices large business customers have been able to access.

It is also noteworthy that the majority of Airtricity's customers in the Republic are supplied by power from the interconnector to Scotland. We buy hydropower in Scotland and bring it to the customers in the Republic of Ireland, thus exemplifying the opening up of markets and interconnectors.

Larger markets, which are more integrated, should bring economies of scale. At present we have a fair amount of duplication in that we have two markets, North and South, and the administrative infrastructure for those two markets essentially exists in both regions. Ultimately, Ireland is a pretty small piece of geography and it seems a reasonable assumption that an all-island market could do without the duplication of overheads, as is the case at the moment.

Regarding the opportunity to take an all-island view of matters, we are all concerned about fuel diversity, security of supply and renewables policy on the island, to name but a few issues. It makes sense that the issue of fuel diversity be addressed on an all-island basis rather than in two separate jurisdictions. More economic solutions lie in looking at how an integrated market across the island of Ireland could provide answers to concerns about fuel diversity.

Larger and more integrated markets provide greater security of supply. As I said, Ireland is a very small place and there seems to be an overwhelming case to bring together the rules and operation of the two systems. We are acutely aware of the price increases in the market over the past two to three years and the associated concern. Potentially, this is one of the most contentious issues for businesses and public representatives. It is vitally important that we understand what is behind those price increases. The recent increase in international fuel prices has been pretty well discussed. The price of gas, for example, has increased by 50% over the past year and that of coal by approximately 100% over the past year. There are a number of reasons for this but the committee should bear in mind when considering alternative fuels under a fuel diversity heading that there has been a reasonable correlation between the price of one fuel and another. As we consider what the appropriate fuel mix for the island should be, we need to understand that total reliance on one fuel as opposed to another — such as moving away from gas towards coal — has implications for the read-across of prices from one fuel to another.

The heavy investment in the networks by both the ESB and BGE gives rise to substantial increases in the prices of transporting electricity from power stations to customers. The emissions legislation that has been emerging in Europe in recent years is adding significantly to the cost. The most recent example is the well-publicised so-called carbon tax on greenhouse gas production. Emissions legislation unfortunately tends to mitigate against fuels such as coal, in its capacity as a substitute for gas, for obvious reasons.

It probably should be appreciated that the Single Market directive requires liberalisation of energy markets. Market liberalisation, in turn, requires cost-reflective prices to exist in those markets. However, cost-reflective pricing in the markets simply stalled because nobody can enter them. These factors have been driving the price in recent years. On the escalation of world fuel prices, we can take some comfort from the fact that world fuel prices decreased from their historic highs and therefore prices to customers should follow suit.

Against this background there are actions that will ensure that costs customers face are as low as they possibly can be. For example, higher availability in existing plants would mean that less investment would be required in total. EirGrid, when it was before this committee, estimated that if the existing plant portfolio were improved to best practice, it could probably save approximately €50 million to €60 million per annum.

There should be competition in the building and operation of new plants. This would ensure that best prices are obtained. Without this, who is to decide that a monopoly organisation has secured the best deal in the purchase of a plant? The same applies to the operation of a plant. Retail competition would exist if we could attract retail businesses into this market to compete for final customers.

On the point I made regarding the escalation in infrastructure costs, it should be appreciated that for the average domestic customer infrastructure costs amount to approximately half the final bill, which is a substantial portion. This is very much an area to which attention should be paid.

There are many examples of markets in which competition has made a very significant difference to cost and quality of service. The next slide I am about to show the committee is an example of what has happened already, particularly in the market in Great Britain. The examples with which committee members would be immediately familiar include the airline industry and retail banking. We would all agree that the changes in those industries over the past ten years have been very substantial.

To give an example concerning the electricity and gas markets in Great Britain, some 11 million electricity customers — about 40% of the existing customer base — have changed supplier. In the gas market, about 8 million customers have changed supplier. Obviously, those customers have seen something by way of an attractive competitive offering from an alternative supplier. In the Republic of Ireland some 40,000 customers have changed supplier to date. Most of these are large industrial customers or customers that have opted for a green product, mainly from Airtricity.

If we seek a competitive market and agree that competition is good, one of the most important issues we, and I hope this committee, need to address is to identify the barriers to achieving competition. Competition is not possible without new entrants to compete with incumbent organisations. Therefore, if new entrants are not encouraged into this market the whole exercise is essentially futile. A dominant player in the market is always frightening to new investors. The investments being made are 20-year investments to the value of €250 million and naturally investors are looking fora sign that the market over the longer term is stable and will not be subject to some form of erratic behaviour, from whatever quarter. The investment community is not persuaded that regulation can effectively curtail dominant behaviour. It is our strong view that as long as the vast majority of the generating plant in this market is owned and operated by a single player, a truly competitive market will be very difficult to achieve. These views are widely held by the investment community.

For an all-Ireland market, in particular, to be a reality, it would be necessary to improve the infrastructure between North and South. A barrier to effective trading between the two markets is the restriction on transfers on the existing interconnector. This is especially the case from South to North owing to the congestion on the transmission networks north of Dublin. Even to make the existing interconnector work properly, some investment is required.

Notwithstanding that, both NIE and ESB National Grid have been studying a second interconnector for some time. A feasibility study has been carried out on the route and it has been costed. We contend that the benefits of the existing interconnector with Scotland into Northern Ireland and a potential future interconnector into the Republic of Ireland will not be fully realised unless there is further investment in interconnection between North and South. That can take the form of improving the capacity of the existing interconnector but probably requires investment in a second interconnector.

Let us highlight what we regard to be the next steps. Following the regulator's recent and very welcome joint memorandum with a design for a market for the entire island — I hope it will be a simple one — the regulator should decide urgently that additional interconnection is needed and should be funded. We estimate that with a favourable wind behind the project, it will still take five years to put such an interconnection on the ground. Almost certainly, this is not something which happens within 18 months or two years. To plan and get consent for another interconnector and construct it would take something like five years.

Most critical of all will be to remove the barriers to effective competition taking root in the market. I again emphasise that without effective competition, the whole exercise which we are going through here will be a non-event. If you are questioning what our view would be in terms of what effective competition would look like, we feel it can be achieved only by finding a way to have competition between all power stations that are connected to the network. The chief issue in that will be how to create competition between the present portfolio of the ESB plant. Further than that, we regard as a prime example of dominant behaviour the replanting of existing power stations. We think it is a sort of nonsense to consider how you introduce independent power plants into this market as a means of bringing competition into it and yet allow the ESB to continue to plant existing power stations. Aghada would be an example as I know the ESB has received tenders to re-plant that station, and to us that further reinforces the dominant position of the incumbent. We regard that as extremely anti-competitive because effectively the ESB has ownership of those sites and no one else can get the opportunity to compete for the building of plant on those sites. We think that alternative options can be arranged quite easily.

The points we would make are such as we would make regarding any incumbent in any market. The ESB happens to be the incumbent in this market and I am sure it would be inclined to make similar comments regarding NIE in the Northern Ireland markets. The fact that the NIE and the ESB are incumbents is not really the issue here. The issue is the shape of the market today and what needs to be done to make it right as we develop a new one. There is an argument with regard to interconnection to a larger Great Britain market which suggests that the existing incumbent will be no longer dominant. That is a piece of arithmetical nonsense because the only thing that matters when one interconnects with a larger market is the size of the interconnector, not the size of the market one connects to. The only competitive pressure that can be brought into the market is directly proportionate to the size of the interconnector one builds.

With respect, there is a "to do" list for members of the committee. Regarding the design of the all-island market, let us keep the thing simple. We can always add complexity at a later stage if it is warranted. Regarding barriers to effective competition, if there is not a collective will, through government and the policy instruments, in terms of the organisations in place to deal with the barriers to competition, then we should all be talking about a completely different type of market design altogether. If those barriers are not dealt with, competition is not possible. Regarding the aiding of competition and creating the best possible opportunity for an all-island market, further infrastructure investment that allows proper trading between North and South is essential. We cannot afford to get it wrong. If we do these things and take the necessary action, there should be no reason the sort of market we are striving for should not be in good shape by the end of this decade.

I thank Mr. McCracken for those very frank remarks about the energy market in Ireland. Does he believe that the lights could go out in Ireland in 2006 if we do not have increased generating capacity? Is he pleased with his company's investment in Ireland and does he plan to invest further in Ireland? If not, what would be a barrier and what would the reasons be for not wanting to invest further? We had our own discussions in Australia with both energy companies and the regulator from New Zealand. As Mr. McCracken will be aware, the European efficiency average for generating plants is approximately 86% to 88%. I would be interested to know what his company's efficiency rate is and how it compares with the average generating efficiency of the stations in State ownership which stands at about 76%. Is he aware that the percentage in terms of efficiency in New Zealand and Australia is higher, probably in the order of 94%? As he knows, Aughinish and Tynagh Energy have been given permission to build plants in Ireland which are meant to come on stream in November 2005 and January 2006, respectively. Do you think that Tynagh Energy will be ready in January 2006? I understand that the company has not yet turned a sod in that development.

Mr. McCracken

I will call in my colleague to answer some of the harder questions.

The harder ones? They were easy questions.

Mr. McCracken

The Chairman was only getting warmed up.

Mr. McCracken should be here when it is very tough.

Mr. McCracken

There is a lot of talk about the lights going out in 2006, some of it not always well founded. The generally accepted opinion in the industry is that things will be tight over the winter of 2005-06 and will come down to the availability we find in the existing plant portfolio. If availability is good, things will not be so tight, and if it is bad, things will be tighter. Lying behind this is the fact that the system needs new investment in generating plant. That leads on to the second question asked, whether we are planning to invest further. Our experience with the current plant has been mixed. We have had to fight very hard to find a position in the market for that plant. Our project experience was a good one in terms of building the plant and so on. Our experience in operating it has been good from a plant point of view but not so good from the market point of view. Many of the problems we have experienced are ones with which we have had to interact very closely with Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, and other organisations responsible in terms of the decisions made around generating plant and how they will operate in the system. We have had some difficulties regarding the Huntstown One plant. I will be more specific about that later.

That leads on to whether we might envisage investing in new plant. We have been looking at investment in a second power station in the Republic of Ireland for some time. Due to the fact that we have found some difficulties with our existing power station, we have had to look very hard at whether there is an economic case for further investment. These are €250 million long-term investments so a board is not easily persuaded it should make that investment unless a good business case is put in front of it.

To be more specific, the problems we have faced in Huntstown One and Huntstown Two lie in seeing some degree of certainty in the long-term shape of the market in Ireland. We came into this market when it had one form — a bilateral market. We came in with a power station, got customers and were able to sell that power station to the customers. With the new market arrangement being introduced, a good deal of uncertainty still exists around what exactly the design of that market should be. The key area of design lies in the question of how to manage the dominant position of the incumbent because by our calculations, for over 90% of the time the current portfolio of the ESB plant will be setting the price in the market. How does one ensure that the price set in the market is a fair one? That would probably be the largest issue we would wrestle with in terms of coming into this market with a second power station.

There are other issues. As I pointed out earlier, the original design of the market in Ireland was extremely complex and provided much more uncertainty to potential investors than was needed. Hopefully that overly complex design has gone away and we will have something which will be simpler for everyone to understand in terms of making a business case. The barriers to investment are similar to the ones I mentioned as barriers to competition. As I said earlier, competition and new investment go hand in hand; competition depends on new players in the market. I will ask my colleague, Mr. David de Casseres, to respond on the availability from the Huntstown One plant and what we understand from published literature to be the availability of the present portfolio of plant on the system.

Mr. David de Casseres

The Huntstown One plant has been operating at an availability of more than 93 % during the past year, which compares very favourably with——

Did Mr. Casseres say 93%?

Mr. de Casseres

In fact, greater than 93% availability and if one excludes planned outages, which are minor, it is greater than 99%. The plant is operating at a very high level of availability and during the past two to three months it has been operating at 100%. In terms of plant operation, as Mr. McCracken explained to the committee, the operation is doing very well, but the market challenge presents significant concerns.

I do not know a great deal about the markets in Australia or New Zealand because I have not had the privilege of going there but I understand that the performance of our plant at Huntstown stands up well against international benchmarks.

Did the company not send a delegate to the World Energy Conference in Australia?

Mr. de Casseres

I am afraid not.

Mr. McCracken

We were all too busy.

Have the witnesses formed a view as to why the plants in the Republic are performing at an efficiency level of 76% compared with the 93% efficiency level of their plant? Is the plant too old and in need of replacement or are there other reasons the plant is not performing at a level of 93% efficiency?

Mr. McCracken

We are discussing availability and whether the plant is available. We understand the average is somewhere below 80%. As the only figures available are those reported from the ESB national grid as we do not have close personal knowledge of its performance. If the average figure for the total portfolio of plant is less than 80%, that is worrying because some plants are operating below the 80% efficiency level. New plant once it has settled in should have higher reliability and availability than the older plant, which might be subject to faults one would not expect to find in a newer plant. However, international experience suggests that, provided the plant maintenance and overhaul practices are well managed, higher availability will be achieved in older plant. In America some extremely old, up to 60 years old coal-fired plants, have high availability and it is in everybody's economic interest to keep them running because America does not need to worry about the Kyoto Protocol.

We learnt from the deliberations at the World Energy Conference that the position in Australia is similar to what Mr. McCracken described in America.

Given that the energy supply will be very tight if we do not have additional generating capacity and greater efficiency from existing plant, does Mr. McCracken consider from his experience of having built an energy plant that Tynagh Energy Limited will be up and running a 250 megawatt plant by January 2006?

Mr. McCracken

I do not know the answer to that question. I am not familiar with the project programme for Tynagh Energy Limited and I could not voice an opinion as to when the energy will become available. However, from what I know of the construction period for such a plant, it would be foolish to rely on energy generated from a plant such as Tynagh Energy Limited to be available for the winter of 2005-06.

Is it possible to build a plant in 16 months?

Mr. McCracken

From our experience, one of the tightest timescales to build a plant on a good site was 22 months.

It takes 22 months, but it is only 16 months to the winter of 2005.

I welcome the representatives of Viridian and thank them for taking the time to speak to the committee. I am trying to get a handle on Northern Ireland electricity and how it compares with the ESB. I presume it is a private company and that Viridian owns the grid in Northern Ireland, in the same way that the ESB owns the grid. Has electricity generation in Northern Ireland been opened up to competition or are there restrictive practices?

I note from the presentation that Hunstown Power is Ireland's only large-scale independent power plant, but further down it states that they are "precluded from owning power stations". That appears to be a contradictory statement, but perhaps it is held by a different company that is at arm's length from Viridian. Will Mr. McCracken explain that? How many plants does Hunstown Power own and where are they situated? Are some of them situated in the South and what is the electricity generating capacity?

Eirgrid's presentation to the committee referred at length to the security of supply and the danger of a lack of capacity. Is a lack of generating capacity a problem only south of the Border or does it apply in the North as well? The presentation refers to the link between the grids being very restrictive, stating that an interconnector will create competition only when it is large enough and that there will be a five year lead-in time to provide such an interconnector. How much would it cost to provide an interconnector? Is there an incentive for private industry and has it the capacity to do it or must it be undertaken by Governments, North or South? Is there duplication in the two markets, North and South? Should the country, as an island nation, be one market and how does Mr. McCracken see this operating? Would there be one regulator for North and South? What steps should be taken to create one market, or would political considerations prevent that from going ahead?

While the necessity for competition is agreed, regulation as a means of driving it is decried.

One of the things learned from the World Energy Conference is that we should have real, not artificial, competition. How do the Viridian representatives think this could be driven?

A difficulty arises in regard to power plants in that private industries seem reluctant to bring on extra generating capacity. Is it necessary for Viridian or others in the market to provide additional incentives for this?

Mr. McCracken

Northern Ireland Electricity, NIE, is owned by Viridian, the parent company. Until 1998, everything was under the NIE banner but as the business expanded outside the core electricity business and as the company considered different markets, it was decided that having NIE as the overarching company name was not appropriate, hence the invention of Viridian. NIE constitutes approximately 80% of the Viridian group and committee members are correct that it has been a private sector company since 1992. Similar to the ESB, it owns the grid and the transmission and distribution networks, and it sells retail business to almost all customers in the North of Ireland. ESB and Eirtricity also have competitive business in the North, so there is competition.

If I interpret the question correctly, there is no competition in any of the grid networks throughout the world and no intention that there should be. A grid is regarded as a natural monopoly. Some countries decide to privatise it while others decide it should remain in state ownership, which is a strategic decision for government. However, there is never a sense that there will be competition in regard to the wires. The method used is to create a regulator which ensures the management of the wires is carried out on a fair and equal basis. Therefore, any body which wants to sell electricity to customers or to connect a power station to the grid is allowed to use the grid on an impartial basis in the same way the incumbent uses it. This is at the heart of regulation and why regulators are needed.

Regulators are also needed to create the competitive environment under discussion at this meeting. We are discussing markets and transition and the British market is one which began this journey in the 1990s. It was probably ten years before that market got itself into good competitive shape but this did not happen until there was an increased number of players in the market, with independent power plant and seeking customers.

Viridian operates the only large-scale independent power plant in the Republic of Ireland. The only other plant in the independent market at this time is the Synergen plant in Dublin Bay which is owned by an ESB company. When Tynagh and Aughinish come on stream, they will not be independent because they are contracted to the ESB. Of all the power plants in the system and due to enter the system, none is independent except Viridian's.

The point I made about being precluded from power generation refers to the North of Ireland. When the company was privatised, the power stations it owned were sold off to independent players. The idea behind this was to create competition at the power generation level. However, the design was flawed in that contracts were given to power stations during the privatisation process which turned out to be very generous. This led to unnecessarily high generation prices in Northern Ireland in the past decade and this will continue to the end of this decade. It is difficult to reduce generation prices because they are enshrined in legally binding contracts.

I will bring in Mr. de Casseres to discuss Huntstown power station as he was responsible for building it.

Mr. de Casseres

Huntstown power station has an output of 343 MW which is approximately 6% of the total installed capacity in the Republic of Ireland and between 4% and 5% of the total capacity on the island of Ireland. It is the only power station owned by the Viridian group and the Huntstown power company owns just one plant, described earlier, which is situated close to the airport in north Dublin. The plant was completed in 2002 and operates at 93% plus availability at present.

Mr. McCracken

With regard to the restrictions between the two grids, there are three interconnectors between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Two are smaller interconnectors which are not considered important in the context of trading between the two jurisdictions, one running from Strabane to Letterkenny and the other from Enniskillen to Flagford. However, the main, heavyweight interconnector is that running down the east coast between Tandragee, a nice little village where I live, and the substation at Louth.

The problem is that interconnectors connect to the grids at both ends. No matter how large the interconnector, if the grid at either end is congested it is not possible to transfer much on the interconnector, which is part of the problem with the existing interconnector. While, for example, we can transfer almost three quarters of the size of a power station from the North to the Republic, because of the congestion on the network north of Dublin, the transfer capability from the South to the North is effectively zero. It is possible to allow for some transfer but heavy congestion to the network north of Dublin remains. This is a feature of the design of the network as large transfers from the South to the North were not considered. We are not pointing the finger at anyone but simply highlighting the physical facts concerning the network. If we want significant transfers, this issue will need to be addressed.

On the other hand, the building of a second interconnector would certainly address the problem. The current estimated cost of this is approximately £70 million sterling and while the more the project is studied the higher that cost will probably be, it is a good estimate. On the questions of how a second interconnector would be financed and who would build it, it is extremely unlikely the private sector would build a merchant interconnector between the North and the South because it would be almost impossible to build a business case around the project. Therefore, it would be for the two regulators to decide that to have stronger interconnection between the two jurisdictions would be a good thing for customers in Ireland as a whole. Without it, an all-island market is a pipe dream.

When the need for a second interconnector was decided, the two regulators would then decide that customers throughout the island would pay for it. It would then become a capital investment which would be postalised across all customers, who would pay for it in the way customers pay transmission and distribution charges. The formula for this would have to be decided. As two thirds of customers on the island are in the South and one third in the North, it might be split in those proportions or it might be split 50:50. This would be for the regulators to decide. However, this is the simple and generally accepted way for funding network investment. One would hope that the competitive benefit from trading on the enhanced interconnection would outweigh the costs customers would bear to build it, which would be the argument the regulators would have to come up with.

At present, there are two completely duplicated markets with two regulators, two transmission system operators, two expensive new market systems being built and two sets of rules on how the markets will open and operate. The rules are important in that if a retailer wants to operate in both markets, it would seem sensible that the same rules exist in both markets or the retailer would have to deal with two sets of rules and would probably need two systems to deal with them. Having two separate markets causes duplication, not only in the provision of those markets but also in the extra costs for those who must deal with them.

There are suggestions I could give about how to deal with that kind of duplication. A country the size of Ireland with the market it requires could function extremely well with one regulator and one transmission system operator, be it EirGrid or Sony. It does not really matter. We decide there will be one. They then make joint planning decisions regarding how the network will be developed and benefit from the synergies of having the same planning decisions being taken on both sides of the Border. Those can be quite large capital investment decisions. For example, the decision regarding the interconnector would be a joint one, made by a single regulator and a single TSO. It could involve a £70 million sterling investment. That is the size of decision with which we are dealing. There is an overwhelming case for whatever migration path is needed to bring these two markets closer together and have them under one administration. There are many benefits.

Is there any great enthusiasm within the industry for that? Is it envisaged that it will happen in the short or long term?

Mr. McCracken

It is an accepted fact that that will be the outcome of an all-island market. It is a given. The whole industry accepts that we are heading towards one regulator, one TSO, one set of rules, one market structure arrangement. That is the only sensible way forward.

I welcome Mr. de Casseres and Mr. McCracken to the meeting and compliment them on their presentation which is very simply laid out and easy to understand.

The biggest issue in the electricity market is competition and pricing. Deputy Kenneally has dealt with the issue of competition. During the World Energy Conference in Australia, competition was high on the agenda of every country. When one considers the size of Ireland compared to Australia, the United Kingdom and many other places, one might ask oneself whether we can afford competition. However, the only way the market can move forward is through competition, particularly given how unfairly the ESB has been treating its customers.

I visited the Viridian plant with Deputy Coveney a little over a year ago and was very impressed. I was particularly impressed by how clean it was. It was amazing to see how an electricity supply plant worked and how clean it was. It is a very fine plant and I would love to see more such plants across the country.

With the New Zealand model in mind, do we need a full break-up of transmission generation and transmission distribution before we set out a market structure? Has the regulator got it wrong in trying to impose a market before we have real competition? In addition, do the representatives believe we can get a proper market running in electricity as opposed to renewable energy if the ESB is in a dominant position in the brown market and there are now subsidiary companies also dominant in the green renewable energy market? Perhaps they could expand on this. The Chairman spoke about what will happen in the future, in 2005 and 2006. We are facing a very serious situation in the next two to three years in terms of our electricity supply.

Regarding pricing, the ESB got a price increase in the past few weeks. When purchasing oil or gas, one is not buying on the spot market but under a contract lasting a number of years. Could the representatives expand on how they purchase gas to generate electricity? It is totally unfair that when there is an increase in fuel prices, the ESB has the right to increase its price for electricity. It is treating its customers unfairly because it has had price increases in recent years.

As my colleague wants to get in, I will come back later with a further question. Perhaps the representatives could expand on those.

Perhaps Mr. McCracken will answer those questions and then we will move on to Senator Finucane.

Mr. McCracken

First, I thank Deputy Kehoe for his kind remarks. We are quite proud of the station also.

On competition, the Deputy is right. Our real fear is that something will be designed which is overly complicated and does not deal with the real issues that need to be addressed in creating a competitive market, and that essentially we will end up putting in place something very expensive and cumbersome which does not work. We will get only one shot at this. We cannot afford to get it wrong. We are coming from a market that clearly has not worked terribly well. We are trying to design a new one and will get one opportunity to do it properly. If we fail, there will be significant damage to investor confidence. It is important that we solve all the problems along the way.

The points made in the presentation are, from our perspective, the crucial ones. We must put in place a market structure which consists of rules and systems. Those rules and systems have no chance of working if the market dynamics ranged against them are not dealt with along the way. We have discussed what those are. They relate to how we can create a system where there is maximum competition between the players in that market. It is very difficult to do this when one player is setting the price in the market for more than 95% of the time. We may find a solution to this. However, it needs to be addressed as an up-front issue. Otherwise the market will not work.

There was a question about the regulator and whether the regulatory influence could work properly. We do not believe it can work properly and that we need a different solution but the regulatory solution is the only one on the table. That is one of the reasons we are nervous about whether the proposals on the table will produce a market that we would want to invest in again. Our view is that the creation of maximum competition between the existing power stations is an absolute prerequisite for any sort of competitive market in the future. There are a number of ways to do this. We are realists, even though we might suggest selling all the ESB power plants off to a number of new entrants, throwing the plants on the open market and getting new players to come in as was done in Northern Ireland. From a competitive point of view that might potentially produce the best solution and get the maximum number of players in the market competing with each other. I would not advocate turning a company upside down. However, any solution that does not create a competitive market across the ESB portfolio of plants will not deliver an effective competitive market. There are other structures that one could propose. If the committee wants to discuss those, we can return to them.

The dominant position of the ESB was mentioned. The points I have just made lead on to this in terms of both the brown and green markets. Dominance is scary for new investors. It may be that the incumbent, even though dominant, has the best of intentions and will not abuse its dominance. However, that is neither here nor there. If there is a perception that there is dominance and that there is potential for abuse, that is enough to spook the market. We are talking about large investments that must be lived with for 20 years.

Regarding recent price increases, and Mr. de Casseres may speak on this point also, as players in this industry we all understand that we stand accountable for the price increases in the market. We do not try to duck them but I try to give an indication of from where some of those price increases are coming. A large number of them are structural in terms of——

Did Viridian make a submission to the regulator requesting increases or in any way comment on the possibility of increases?

Mr. McCracken

We never——

Is it not the case that in February 2005 Viridian could supply everyone in this room with electricity?

Mr. McCracken

On the second question, my understanding is that the market will be fully open in February 2005 as long as the systems, etc., are in place to allow a company like ours to look for whatever customers we decide we want to supply. It is extremely unlikely that I would come knocking on Deputy Broughan's door because from a business proposition point of view, it is very unlikely that I will try to gain 100,000 domestic customers by knocking on their doors when I could get the equivalent sales from two large industrials. It will be many years before a supplier comes knocking on the Deputy's door after February 2005. First, with respect, I assume he is not an attractive proposition and, second, until there is an independent power plant in the market that is hungry for other customers it will not happen.

Did Viridian make a submission in respect of a 13% increase in domestic and business prices from September 2004 and a likely 4% increase in January 2005? Did Viridian request the regulator to do something about the end prices?

Mr. McCracken

We never made any submission to the regulator on the recent tariff announcements. The recent tariff announcements were not exactly recognised in terms of where they were coming from and what was driving them. We are subject to the same fuel cost inputs as the ESB and any other player in the market. To be clear on whether we made a submission or have discussions, we had a lot of discussions with the regulator on the price increases he was proposing in terms of——

Did Viridian object to them?

Mr. McCracken

No, we did not object to them. The basis of the increases in terms of what was driving them were readily understood by all the players in the market. Our concern was to ensure that if he made the decision about the price increase the part of the market we supply, which is the large industrial customer, and the energy component of the tariffs we are seeing in respect of those customers, was one that fully reflected the costs we were facing as a power station. The whole emphasis of what we put——

Mr. McCracken, Deputy Kehoe put a question about the hedge market. What way does your company purchase fuel? Does it use gas?

Mr. McCracken

We use gas and we would hedge our gas needs going forward. For example, when we enter into contracts for customers for the forthcoming year we would try to hedge the gas price we will have to pay for that forthcoming year and we would offer contracts to customers based on that price. What we try to do is lock in the price we pay for fuel and the contracts we strike with customers.

Over what period of time? Has your company locked in prices for the next number of years?

Mr. McCracken

We will have hedged probably about 80% of our gas requirements for the power station.

For the coming year.

Mr. McCracken

Just next year.

Those contracts have been in place for some years.

Mr. McCracken

We are driven by what the customer wants. If a customer wants a two or three-year deal in respect of fixed prices we would go out into the market and hedge that gas price for the station going forward for two or three years. We would lock in the cost to us, offer the customer a contract price that reflects those costs and that is the deal he or she would get for two or three years. We have multi-year deals with customers in the North.

To be clear on Deputy Kehoe's question, is Viridian the beneficiary of the same price increase for generating power as the ESB?

Mr. McCracken

I do not know the incumbent's contract. I understand the ESB will have some legacy contracts which are probably quite good contracts, and fair play to it. The price of gas we buy for this power station is directly related to today's spot gas prices and all we can do is go to the future market, look at those prices for a year ahead and hedge them.

With the ESB having a larger percentage of the market it is in a good position to have a fixed contract for the cost of fuel for a number of years. Viridian has a lesser percentage of the market. Did Mr. McCracken say Viridian would fix a contract on fuel for one year? Is it able to extend that beyond one year or is Viridian hedged into one year?

Mr. McCracken

No. We could potentially hedge forward as far as we wanted but we would not do that unless we had a corresponding contract for customers over the same period because we would be exposed to taking a hedge on a gas price going forward. If that gas price were to change, particularly if it were to fall, we would have locked in a high price, someone else would come in and undercut us and take our customers. We would never leave ourselves in that exposed position. The whole idea of a hedge is to ensure that we mirror a contract with a customer in our input costs.

Is Mr. McCracken saying, in response to my two colleagues, that in respect of consumer prices, both household and business, to some extent the regulator is trying to guess what the gas and oil markets will be over the next year or so? He is not doing it on the historic costs because when the price of oil headed for $50 dollars a barrel that did not have an immediate impact, although consumers were shocked a few weeks ago, and on 30 September we are expecting a significant gas rise but that is not being done on the basis of what we are reading about now. It is speculation as to what the future might hold.

Mr. McCracken

I would say it is probably reflective of where prices are today. On hedging gas prices, we are looking into another year. We are contracting for customers and what we have been doing throughout this year is building up our hedge position on the gas we will buy in the forthcoming year. The prices we are looking at in that futures market are highly reflective of where gas prices are today, and that is the hedging price at which we are buying. We are putting hedges in place now for gas at 34 and 35 cent per therm on average over next year. In fact, next year's winter gas is over 40 cent per therm. That is what we are having to pay today for the hedges we are putting in place for next year. It is a very tight business in terms of putting in place gas hedges at that price which lock in our costs for the coming year and then trying to sell that on to customers by way of contracts because we are having to tell customers that substantial increases are coming through and we have to pass them on. Nobody is immune from that.

I am sorry for interrupting you, Mr. McCracken, but I must call Senator Finucane. I apologise for letting Deputy Broughan speak before you, Senator, but he has a knack of doing that.

My questions will not be long. Mr. McCracken is welcome. I sat through most of the modules of this energy session, those dealing with EirGrid and the submission by Mr. Reeves, the regulator. Mr. McCracken may not be able to comment on this aspect but if I were to objectively analyse the effects of having a regulator in place, and he mentioned there is a regulator in the North and the South, and the regulator's main remit was to increase competition in the marketplace and reduce costs, as a consumer I would be asking how the regulator can justify his role when electricity costs have increased by 40% over the past two years compared to the consumer price index. That begs the question as to whether there is competition in the market, apart from Viridian coming in and generating capacity at Huntstown. Therefore, there must be a barrier to competition. At the end of September when people are kind of punch-drunk — as the witnesses will know, there was an 8% increase in recent times — the regulator will make a further announcement in regard to an extra 3.5% from 1 January next. It would appear that any time the ESB looks for an increase, the regulator says it is fine. The justification in this case is the increased costs. The regulator also said that when costs come down, he will look at a reduction. I will say "hallelujah" when that happens given what we have seen to date.

How effective is this regulator mechanism? Does Mr. McCracken see it as effective? He made the point about prices being the lowest possible and high generating plant efficiency and availability. Huntstown is at 93% capacity and much of the ESB plant averages 78% capacity. By definition, it is not efficient and fully available.

I, along with other public representatives, have attended ESB launches of capital investment to upgrade plant throughout the country. Parallel to that upgrading has been an associated cost. Will Mr. McCracken comment on the North of Ireland where, I am sure, similar capital investment is taking place? Has there been an associated cost? It would appear there is a great difference between the marketplace in the North of Ireland and the South in terms of cost. It is hard to understand it is the same island.

Mr. McCracken

There are some pretty searching questions there. It is difficult to make a concrete statement in relation to regulatory performance. One of the reasons is that we need to acknowledge a tough job is being done. There is a market in transition and I am sure the regulator, like others, would have dearly loved it if fuel prices had been going 40% to 50% the other way rather than 40% to 50% up, in which case much of the conversation we would have been having today would have probably been moot. He has been a bit unfortunate in relation to a market in transition which, for the reasons I pointed out earlier, was having cost drivers embedded into it and the fact that it has had to endure substantial increases in international fuel prices. To be entirely honest, we could not have survived without a significant increase in prices to customers. As I said earlier, we have hedged prices of gas for the incoming contract round. The price was significantly higher than last year. We will be going out with that price to customers. There is no magic from our point of view and I would not like to try to give the impression there is. We have seen those price increases and we will pass them on to customers because there is no way we can absorb them.

Going back to what one can do against those exogenous factors which are driving the industry in a particular direction, there are things we can do to make sure the prices that result from those factors are as low as they possibly can be.

Am I correct that European electricity prices are somewhat lower than those in Ireland?

Mr. McCracken

I will give the Chairman one example. I looked at the forecast price of gas in three places, that is, gas traded at the European hub at Zeebrugge which is at the other end of the interconnector going back into Zeebrugge from Great Britain to Holland. From October 2004 to September 2005, gas is being traded at 29.67p per therm. That same gas landed in the Great Britain market — this is called the UK national billing point gas — is 33.83p per therm. That is up 4p. The same gas landed in Ireland is 38p per therm. There is a 25% difference in the price being paid for gas in Europe and the price of gas being landed in Ireland.

We are not experts in this business but we are rapidly becoming so. Am I correct that the difference between energy prices being charged to the end user in this country and the average in the European Union amount to double digit figures? Am I correct that it is in the order of 15% to 20%?

Mr. McCracken

Before the recent fuel price increases and the electricity price increases to which they gave rise, that would not have been correct. I would have said Republic of Ireland prices compared very well with the European average. What has happened with the recent price increases is that one has a mismatch probably between what one would find in Europe for some very valid structural reasons I have pointed out. I would be amazed if one could find energy prices in somewhere like Ireland, which is on the periphery of Europe and is not producing indigenous gas, has to buy it across two interconnectors, one from Europe and one from Great Britain——

We have a little gas and we may have a great deal.

Mr. McCracken

Yes, but it is not having any effect on——

From where does Mr. McCracken buy gas?

Mr. McCracken

I buy it from Great Britain. There is nowhere else to buy it. We buy our gas cross pipeline from Scotland. The pipelines into Dublin and the pipeline into Northern Ireland all originate in the same place in Scotland.

We are not going to be able to get too much more on the price differential between Ireland and other European countries but I assure Mr. McCracken that we have a great deal of other information which we will not disclose today. However, we will disclose it when we meet the regulator who will have to be invited back to account for his increases in the energy market. A number of remarks were made about the ESB but I want to make it quite clear that we have an open mind on many issues in regard to the ESB which will be given an opportunity to appear before the committee to answer questions which have emerged as a result of the different modules. I do not want to get telephone calls or letters from the ESB tomorrow stating that something was said which was not correct. It will have an opportunity, along with the regulator, to answer questions as to why the regulator has sanctioned increases. One can see the way members are reacting today in that regard.

I would like Mr. McCracken to comment on the network investment in the North of Ireland vis-à-vis that in the South, the type of parallel increases and the degree of the absorption costs in the North of Ireland. I would be interested to know the differences between electricity costs in the North of Ireland and here taking into account the differences between sterling and the euro.

Mr. McCracken

On network investment, I can give the Senator our experience over the 15 year period. We run on regulatory cycles which last five years. Over the 15 year period from 1992 to the end of this present price control in 2007, we will have invested £1.2 billion sterling in the network in the North of Ireland. At the same time, we have agreed price control. The regulator will bring our network prices down by 45% in real terms over that period. To some extent, this depends from where one starts. The fact there is a 45% reduction in prices could reflect the fact we had a pretty high starting point in terms of our network charges. I would not agree with that. It was not low but I would not agree it was abnormally high. Network investments — this is the experience with Great Britain companies as well — have largely been funded out of the efficiencies the companies have been driven to cough up via regulation. Whether there is scope for similar reductions in the Republic of Ireland is a matter for the ESB and the regulator. It is our experience and that in Great Britain that there are significant efficiencies to be had in these types of organisations. Those efficiencies can fund capital investment programmes without the need for price increases to customers. It is a matter of incentivising the management of the companies to find them.

I note The Sunday Business Post and The Sunday Tribune extracts at the back of this presentation. I presume it is in the Viridian presentation. I do not believe everything I read in those newspapers or even in the illustrious newspaper, The Irish Times. I always enjoy meeting representatives of Viridian who have provided the committee with much information over the past 18 months or so.

I note that Viridian, in calling for a single regulator, is also a bit ahead of the peace process and I would support the company in that regard. Most of us, and certainly my party, would be reasonably happy with Viridian's vision, which Mr. McCracken has expressed well in section two of his presentation. Section two outlines the objective of "an all-Ireland competitive electricity market where legacy costs have largely disappeared, where the generating plant mix is much more efficient and environmentally sustainable, and customers are able to exercise real choice ". I do not think anybody has a disagreement with that.

I want to ask Mr. McCracken about the structure of the markets of the two states on this island. Viridian is calling to get rid of the incumbent in this market on the basis that it controls generation and network, but Viridian, in the all-island market, would control generation and network. Viridian has a generator here and it wants more generators. Viridian is saying Aghada should not have gone ahead. I understand Viridian was shocked it did not get a look-in when the other two competitors were recently granted, at Aughinish and Tynagh. Viridian wants to be a generator in the South and a network controller or distributor in the North. How does that add up? If Viridian is to be logical, should not both Viridian and ESB get out of generation and let ESB become the network controller? The committee is very conscious of this because we, under our Chairman, have looked at the telecommunications markets and we think the mess arose from the fact that the grid was sold off. Effectively, the generator and the grid stayed together and became the large limping public company of today, encumbered with debt and not refurbishing the network. I refer to the former incumbent in the telecommunications market. Is there not a complete dichotomy between what Viridian is stating about getting into the market in the Republic and what has happened in the North? If one were to go to a market where all the generators were let compete and, to paraphrase Mao Tse-tung, let competition bloom, why should Viridian not be the network competitor with ESB? I do not understand Viridian's. On Energia, Viridian is a wholesale distributor and I am not sure how that fits in.

Clearly Mr. McCracken is giving out about the ESB having Coolkeeragh but Viridian has Huntstown. What is the big deal? I have asked him about the other stations and we mentioned prices. I acknowledge that the regulator may be trying to create a situation where the end price will be so attractive that both Viridian and ESB will have much more serious competition in the future.

Mr. McCracken stated that the problem with the all-Ireland market is there is no clear timetable on ambiguous deliverables for a new market structure. Perhaps he would expand on that. Will the bottlenecks on the east coast, to which Senator Finucane referred, largely be removed by ESB? By the way, there is a suspicion that both ESB and Bord Gáis are going in for gold-plated investment in terms of networks and that that is the reason we are paying such high prices.

Mr. McCracken, in his presentation, also attacks the current proposals on locational marginal pricing. What does he see taking its place? I realise that we are under pressure for time. I am sorry I missed the start of the meeting. I had to attend a meeting of the parliamentary party.

The following question on renewables is the obvious one. Mr. McCracken stated there would be a particular level of green electricity and we all welcome that. I think Viridian is doing work in the area of wind energy. Is it doing anything in the area of wave power and biomass? We hear of some interesting developments in Northern Ireland in the area of biomass. Is Viridian involved in any of those?

Does Viridian look forward to the creation of an all-island market and then an islands market with Britain? I understand to some extent what the Chairman is saying in this regard. The continental market, for instance, enjoys huge economies of scale. Our Danish friends, whom I was unable to meet when they were here last week, can access markets in Germany, Austria and elsewhere whereas we are stuck in this little box. Effectively both our markets are two little boxes on this island and we will have a bigger market now. Has Viridian UK connections? Is Viridian already providing power in the UK? I have a few more questions but I will leave it at that.

Mr. McCracken

Everything I say applies equally both to the North and South. I do not draw any distinction in terms of what is good for ESB in the South and what needs to be done with NIE in the North. There is a direct parallel in what solution is required for the market. My remarks apply equally to both.

I am not in the business of putting forward a case for dismantling the ESB at all but I am in the business of putting forward the opinion that as long as we have one such player — it happens to be ESB due to the market we are in — the experience in Great Britain is relevant. In Great Britain, it did not work when they privatised the industry and created two players. It was only when there were many more players in that generation market competing with each other that prices began to fall and real competition existed in the market. There is plenty of evidence that to create real competition in the market one needs to deal with something like a dominant position of ownership of all the generating plant.

There is conflict between wires and generation. One does not compete on the wires business. That is what the regulators are there for, to make sure that we run the wires business for the good of all players who want to be in the market in the most cost-effective manner possible. We do not preclude anybody from using them.

The wires business — the transmission and distributions networks — which ESB owns here and we own in the North are regulated businesses. If somebody wants to join them together under one company because they can get economies of scale, that is fine. We may find a future where that happens but there is no conflict from being in a wires business and owning generation, or at least the conflicts are very small.

The sense that we want to be in generation in the South and we want to build another power station in the South is all one of scale. We are not saying, therefore, that one must decimate ESB to get what we want in the South, nor are we saying that one must do something by way of major surgery in the North either. We are talking about finding a balance between independents who want to have power plants in this market and want the size of what they own compared to that of the incumbent. This is a question of scale. If the incumbent only had 25%, 30% or 40% of the generating plant in the market and the rest was sprinkled across other players, we would not be having this conversation. I might not be the other player coming in. As I sit here arguing for the right market conditions to get new entrants into the market, I am making the case for anybody who wants to come into the market. I just happen to be there at present and am prepared to come into the market again if the conditions are right. Someone else can come into this market. I am not creating any barrier for them. In fact, I am fighting their case at this point in time.

There was a question about prices and recent price increases. We clearly understand and acknowledge that this is a really big issue for businesses and for public representatives. It is a little like the points we were making earlier on the questions of whether there is effective regulation in this market, where the recent price increases are coming from and why the regulator sanctions them. The point we all must understand is there are input costs to players in this market. Those input costs will eventually be reflected in output prices to customers. We should be looking for those levers, which we can clearly identify in the market today, that should be pulled to ensure those costs are as low as possible. There is no way we can deny the fact that international fuel prices have escalated to all-time highs over the past year.

I regard the all-Ireland market as a work in progress. We welcomed the regulators' joint memorandum recently. We want to see that memorandum turned into urgent actions such that we can see real steps forward in putting that market in place. We want to see an all-Ireland market because we think it is inevitable simply because of the equation at which we are looking, the duplication of which we spoke earlier and the fact that we think that competition is much more likely in a larger market than in two smaller ones.

We are interested in renewables. We have several renewable contracts with wind generators and we intend to have a larger position in renewables. We have renewable customers, both in the North and the South, and we intend to expand that business. The renewables mechanism is pretty clear in Great Britain and has been reinforced in terms of recent targets and legislation set out by the UK Government. We would like an early decision in terms of what the renewables mechanism will be in the Republic of Ireland. That has probably placed somewhat of a stop on the renewables market here.

We are interested in alternative technologies. We have entered into a contract with Ballycassidy Sawmills to use the wood pellets it produces as a by-product to fire boilers. There are technologies which are interesting but which are quite embryonic. We would all agree that those technologies need some support to ensure they are fully explored. However, we are going to have to comply with the plant and demand equation during the next ten years. The technologies, be they biomass or wave power, we are discussing will be quite marginal contributors to the overall energy equation for some time. They will not provide the solution. They have a part to play in respect, for example, of fuel diversity and satisfying the Kyoto targets to which we have all signed up. This sector must be allowed to grow during the next decade before it becomes in any way substantial.

As regards the pool, LMP was somewhat of a horror story for everyone who came into contact with it. We put a forceful case to the CER, which appears to have listened to what the participants in the market said in terms of LMP being an overly complicated system which introduced uncertainty and which deterred rather than encouraged investment. We have put forward a solution to the regulator on a number of occasions — it was restated in recent consultation documents — to the effect that a simple pool should be introduced. If we are going to have a pool in Ireland, and I understand the reasons for that, it should be the simplest one possible. I understand that ESB National Grid has been working with the CER to produce a model of what that simple pool would be. This model is in place in other parts of the world so it is not new; it has been tried and tested. While no model is perfect, our view is that, as the next step, the simplest set of rules, procedures and systems should be put in place to get the market up and running. We should worry about adding complexity later.

I do not mind the ESB having Coolkeeragh power station. The ESB is a competitive player in the North of Ireland and if it did not have the station another company would. We do not labour under any misconception that if we can hold the ESB or anybody else out of the market that will be good for us. If we can create a competitive market, other people will come into it. There have been enough companies around the market in the past five years to signal the fact that people are interested. Five or six quite large players have been interested in entering the market but, for one reason or another, they have not done so. If one creates the right market, climate and environment, there will be plenty of people interested in entering. We are not the only option. We might be the best option but we are not the only one.

It was stated at the world energy conference that using gas and oil for electricity generation would not represent the most efficient way forward and that coal should be used. Ireland is vulnerable because 90% of its energy resources are imported, while the EU norm is 50%. What is Mr. McCracken's view on that matter?

I recently visited a mine from which a conveyor belt is run directly into an electricity generating plant, which is extremely impressive. As regards the crisis that might occur in 2005 or 2006, does the blame lie with a policy which has not allowed the ESB to build a new generating plant?

Mr. McCracken

I will ask Mr. de Casseres to take the first question on coal as a relevant element in the fuel mix in the market here. Will the Deputy repeat the final question he posed?

Is it possible to trace our generation capacity problem to a policy which has not allowed the ESB to build a new generating plant? Has the ESB brought this problem upon itself by lagging behind in recent years and not planning for the future needs of new households, businesses, etc.?

Mr. McCracken

While Mr. de Casseres is formulating a response to the first question, I will tackle the second. It would probably be unfair to point the finger at the ESB and state that it has not built enough generating plants. There is a question regarding the availability of existing plants. In the winter of 2005-06, the plant demand situation would not be as tight if there was best practice availability out of the existing plants. I would be surprised if there was not a very strong internal target within the ESB to increase plant availability. I am sure it is focused on the problem. I do not know when that will come through. Having stated that the incumbent should not be building any more plants because the competitive market would not work, it would be unfair to point the finger at it and say it should have built such plants. I do not hold that view. Apart from the availability issue, there were good enough reasons for the ESB to decide not to build power plants.

The ESB did not make the decision. The matter was decided for it. The company effectively lost the previous national remit that it held. That is why this is somewhat of a phoney crisis. It is aimed at creating the conditions which Mr. McCracken states competition will deliver.

Mr. McCracken

The Deputy is going to the heart of a question to which the committee would probably do well to pay close attention. Once it is decided that a competitive market is the way forward, that market must be allowed to operate. There is no way a competitive market will operate from day one if it is clearly seen that there will be a great deal of intervention which will second-guess the market. If one starts from that point of view, nothing will happen.

It must be decided quite early on whether there is going to be a centrally-planned market with the incumbent being allowed to plan the generating plant of the future and the Department then allowing it to fund the building of that plant. The decision has been taken under the Single Market directive that this option is not open to the Government. The directive stipulates that markets should be liberalised and competition should be invited into them. What the Government is left to wrestle with is the design of that market liberalisation. That is essentially the position in this market.

I do not see that there is an issue around ensuring that there is sufficient capacity to meet demand. We took a decision to build a power plant in this market five years ago. We decided to come into the market. If others look at that market and see the right conditions, they will also enter it. One of the conditions they will see is that the market needs new capacity. I am aware that power companies from across the world looking at various markets pay specific attention to whether a market needs new capacity. If a market needs new capacity, one of these companies will decide it is an interesting place in which to invest.

Mr. de Casseres

We fully recognise and support the need for sensible diversity when it comes to sources of fuel. If we have said anything recently around the Moneypoint issue, it has really focused on the need to ensure that decisions about the use of Moneypoint will not distort the market. Our main concerns return, as always, to the issue of the market and ensuring that there is a proper and transparent market mechanism.

As regards the efficiency of coal plants and technologies, I agree with the Deputy that coal technology has improved immensely in recent years. It is true that coal technologies must and do have a part to play in expanding power portfolios. However, if we consider our circumstances in Ireland, we must recognise that coal plants cost a great deal more to build and take a great deal longer to complete than gas plants. They also unavoidably lead to increases in the emission of carbon and have a lower thermal efficiency. All of these will have an impact on prices, which is a concern that we see in evidence today and which we share. It means there are harder decisions for investors and they will examine the stability of the market to make the decisions. That is why we need to address that first and most fundamentally. That is our main message.

I thank Mr. McCracken and Mr. de Casseres for their informative presentation. They have given us food for thought. The presentation will help with our deliberations and meetings with other players in the market.

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