Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2005

Commercial Ports Development: Presentations.

I welcome Mr. Brendan Keating, chief executive officer of the Port of Cork Company. The joint committee is reviewing the capacity and development of commercial ports and will hear from the Port of Cork Company and Dublin Port Company today. We are also reviewing the port strategy published in January by the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Gallagher.

We will hear a short presentation which will be followed by a question and answer session. Before I ask Mr. Keating to begin his presentation, I draw everybody's attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

A number of members are attending other committee meetings and will join us shortly. It is important that we hear the presentations of the ports of Cork and Dublin.

Mr. Brendan Keating

I thank the Chairman for this opportunity to address the committee. I apologise for the unavoidable absence of our chairman, Mr. Dermot O'Mahony, who, accompanied by the deputy chief executive and harbour master, is attending a meeting with one of our major customers.

In my illustrated presentation, I will briefly outline the issues as they affect the port of Cork. For those few members who are not familiar with Cork, I will cover its location, our trade and facilities, some financial aspects of our company, trade and trends, our capacity deficit, our strategic development plan and the company's economic value.

The Port of Cork Company is strategically located on the south coast of Ireland, with close proximity to the UK and, in particular, continental Europe. My colleagues from Waterford would have a different view but we feel we are best located for future State development or investment in port infrastructure. Cork harbour's main advantage is deep water. To outline the extent of the harbour, members can see that the satellite map shows the city quays on the top left and Roches Point on the bottom right. Cobh is almost to the centre and on the mid-left we have our deep water facility at Ringaskiddy. This slide illustrates the range of depths we have, particularly that of 11.5 m, unique in Ireland, at the Ringaskiddy basin.

In 2004, we handled almost 9.35 million tonnes, comprising imports of 5.29 million tonnes and exports of over 4 million tonnes. Oil traffic, which represents 56% of our trade, accounted for almost 5.3 million tonnes and non-oil for 4 million tonnes. Another unique advantage of the port of Cork is that it is a multi-modal port that can handle: bulk liquids, for example, oil, LPGs and chemicals; bulk solids, such as animal feeds, cereals and fertilisers; ore concentrates; and break bulk, such as timber, paper and steel. We have lift on lift off, lo-lo, services for containers and roll on roll off, ro-ro, services, with car ferries to and from France and Swansea.

The city quays are currently challenged by the significant potential in Cork for the docklands redevelopment. On those quays, which are very profitable for us, we handle bulks, break bulks, oils and chemicals. The city quays constitute a central part of the port of Cork's activities. Our container terminal is located at Tivoli, slightly downstream. There we handle containers, trade cars, bulk solids, LPGs, chemicals, oil, a small amount of cattle trade and break bulk. We describe Ringaskiddy, where we have concentrated our recent investment, as the jewel in our crown because of the depth of water there. At Ringaskiddy, we handle bulk solids, molasses, trade cars, timber and accompanied freight, particularly from the ro-ro services to the Grimaldi service. We have containers with Grimaldi and we also have passenger services. We are unique in that we have a range of private facilities. These are primarily led by Whitegate, which is Ireland's only oil refinery and a significant customer for us. The manufacturing base in the Cork region has changed recently with the closure of IFI and ADM — it was also affected in the past by the closure of Haulbowline — but the port has recovered from those trade losses and continues to thrive, concentrating primarily on the growth area, namely, container traffic.

Cobh handles our cruise line traffic. Worth more than €28 million to the region last year, the cruise business is growing in importance for the south west. Earlier this year the company invested approximately €3.6 million in extended facilities. Cobh also handles fishing, is home to Marine Transport Services, which carries out the port services, and is the base for our pilots.

The company's turnover was €19.5 million in 2004 and its profit before taxation was €4.52 million. Our net assets stand at €105 million. At this level of operation the Port of Cork Company is profitable but as we move towards the development of much needed new facilities, we are concerned that we will not be able to generate sufficient income to fund the borrowings required. The factors influencing our need for new development are globalisation, particularly the centralisation of the world's manufacturing in the Far East, primarily in China. The primary issue is that the transportation of manufactured commodities from the Far East significantly involves sea transport. Another factor is the development of integrated supply chain management, an area in which many firms are now competing. Another influence is continued projected economic growth in Ireland and the associated growth in trade. A key factor is the move towards unitised trade, with 70% of the world's trade in value terms transported through this mode.

Another factor, which is often overlooked, is that Ireland is an island nation. In order to survive our ports must be equipped with infrastructure, operated efficiently and be responsive to the trade and, in particular, their customers. There is considerable consolidation today among the shipping lines and the major ports. Ireland must face this issue. Will Ireland have a series of ports or a reduced number of focused ports which are responsive to the country's needs and which can accommodate the larger vessels and the greater concentration of trade?

Which port is Cork's key competitor? Cork appears to be running against the way the economy has developed. Why should ports not compete? How does Cork compete?

Mr. Keating

Over categories, in one sense we compete with Dublin Port and Waterford for business. We are in competition with each other. That is not my point. The global trend for concentration and consolidation and the increasing size of vessels must be addressed when national investment is prioritised.

Uniquely, the port of Cork is well equipped to handle larger vessels. The competitive forces in the market affect us. Our customers increasingly demand reduced prices. EU transportation policies, with their focus on developing motorways of the sea and concentrating more resources on dedicated transport corridors such as road, rail and shipping lanes, also influence trade.

Supply influencing factors include the fact that Cork has been identified in the national spatial strategy as a key gateway on the south coast of Ireland and the island as a whole. That requires that policies and supporting measures be put in place so that cities such as Cork are given the opportunity to develop and become a counterbalance to Dublin. The national ports policy identifies an anticipated deficit in capacity of infrastructure, the scale of which is set out in the policy document itself. There is a fast approaching capacity deficit in our container business.

Was the company consulted on the national ports policy?

Mr. Keating

Yes. On the supply side there are deeper water requirements, a point I elaborated on earlier. Equally, there is a need to concentrate on proper planning and environmental considerations. There is a need for appropriate access points to our ports and from the point of view of the port of Cork that means investment in the N28 which links Cork city with the deep water facility at Ringaskiddy.

We are also affected by the docklands redevelopment in Cork city, a matter I referred to in my earlier presentation. We are commercial organisations and have a commercial mandate but there is a question mark over whether most of us have the resources to undertake the level of investment we need. I will allow others to elaborate on that but I am concerned that the Port of Cork Company may not have the financial resources to fund the loans required to make the necessary investment.

We face a significant capacity deficit in lift-on and lift-off facilities in Tivoli. We anticipate that by 2009 we will have reached our capacity which we estimate at 180,000 TEUs. There is a demand for ro-ro freight services, particularly on the arc from the west coast of Ireland to the west coast of France and northern Spain.

Equally, the docklands redevelopment has serious implications for our capacity deficit. It will require the replacement downstream of existing facilities in the city quay. In 2002 we prepared a strategic plan in which we identified the new facilities which will be required. The priority is the ADM jetty which will handle displaced trade from the city quays. We have also identified an area in Ringaskiddy called Oyster Bank which will handle trade from Tivoli, meaning it will be our new container facility. The inadequate container capacity in Tivoli is due to growth in the business, restrictions in space and above all draught limitations which will limit the size of the vessels which can approach our facility in the future. I indicated earlier there is a significant trend toward larger vessels even in the short sea shipping business we are in.

The committee will see a drawing of our proposed new facility. The container terminal is identified in lemon or orange on the right hand side. As I am colour blind, I cannot be too precise. Adjacent is the development of a multi-purpose ro-ro berth.

Is that reclaimed land?

Mr. Keating

Significant areas of Ringaskiddy are reclaimed. We propose to reclaim nine hectares in phase one.

What is the total area?

Mr. Keating

There are approximately 120 acres in Ringaskiddy. I have mixed up acres and hectares.

Some 20 acres?

Mr. Keating

Significantly more, maybe 20 hectares. On the top left the committee will see the area identified as the ADM jetty, where in time we will seek to develop facilities to handle trade displaced by the docklands redevelopment in the city area.

The next slide is a better representation of our proposals. Members will see marked out in green our new container terminal proposal and the dedicated ro-ro ramp which will be needed if we are to amalgamate the ro-ro container business with our lo-lo container business. That is adjacent to our deep water facility in Ringaskiddy.

The next slide is another pictorial representation of our ADM jetty. It is adjacent to the Pfizer plant in the Ringaskiddy basin and is an area we are currently working on. We are preparing a master plan for future port activities focused primarily on the Ringaskiddy basin. We are seeking to advance the container terminal and the multi-purpose ro-ro facility to statutory approval stage. This Friday I hope to talk to the members of Cork County Council in committee where I will explain our proposals in detail. We are also engaged in a public consultation process and we have a series of meetings with the community across the harbour in the coming months. At the moment we are in the process of site investigation to establish what the ground conditions are and enable us to come up with an appropriate configuration. The environmental impact assessment has commenced and will not be completed until March 2006. We are also looking at options on the appropriate configuration. Our public engagement process is about to commence.

A huge advantage of Cork Port as a location is our proximity to European markets. We also have the unique advantage of being a deep water port with the potential for even deeper waters. Cork has a stable hydraulic regime and key gateway attributes. It has the potential to attract deep sea services in the future.

We estimate the container facility at Oyster Bank will cost approximately €120 million. The bulk facility at the ADM jetty will cost some €54 million. There are funding constraints in the port of Cork and it appears the new container terminal is likely to be operated by a company other than ourselves, although that has not been determined yet.

Was Mr. Keating aware we visited Chile and Argentina?

Mr. Keating

I was, Chairman.

So was everybody else in the country. Is what he describes like the concession model we came across while we were there?

Mr. Keating

It is. The last few slides illustrate the economic value of a port in a region. A port facility such as we have in Cork is a catalyst for development. It generates economic activity. In excess of 95% of Irish trade by volume and 80% by value is transported through our ports. Imports, which are just as important today, had an economic value of €9.6 billion with 50,000 full-time job equivalents.

We are now involved in a statutory approval process for our container terminal linking load-on load-off and roll-on roll-off services. We are working on the construction of a funding package for the development of new container facilities and hope to have a new container facility operating by 2010; a speedy upgrade of the N28 to Ringaskiddy is fundamental to this.

We are working with Cork City Council and the Government to put in place funding for the provision of alternative port facilities to allow docklands redevelopment. We wish to ensure that there is a proper phasing of docklands implementation in recognition of our port activities.

The Port of Cork Company is determined to play its role in combating national port capacity deficit and enabling Cork to meet its full potential as a key gateway. I am conscious that I was allowed ten minutes and do not wish to overstay my welcome. I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make the presentation.

I thank Mr. Keating for his presentation.

I will be brief as I have another meeting to attend. I welcome Mr. Keating and thank him for a fine, professional presentation. It is good that Cork Port appears to have an excellent future subject to a number of issues which I am sure can be resolved.

Bearing in mind that Cork Port will reach full capacity of 180,000 TEUs by 2009, does Mr. Keating see the difficulties being overcome in that brief time span? With planning and development issues, these processes can take time. The witness also mentioned depth of water in Cork Port and the international trend for bigger vessels. Would it be possible to increase depth in Cork by dredging? Would this pose problems or has such an action been costed?

Mr. Keating has provided encouraging figures regarding imports and exports. Cork has a good strategic location at the western side of Europe which can supply both North and South America. Have we missed an opportunity for greater development compared to Rotterdam, for example. I have had discussions with an international expert who explained that he could not understand why Ireland was not developed further. He argued that because of our location at the edge of Europe, the third or fourth biggest economic bloc in the world, Cork Port and Dublin Port should not be competing with each other but should be as developed as Rotterdam.

There have been four relevant reports completed in the past ten years. The Burke report suggested that Cork Port should either take over Bantry operations or that Bantry should amalgamate with Cork Port. This was seen as the sensible and perhaps only way forward for Bantry. Other reports suggested that Cork Country Council should take over Bantry's operations, but has Cork Port authority examined this option? Does it put stock in the Burke report, which was published five or six years ago?

Mr. Keating paints a reasonably rosy picture for Cork, which I am delighted about as other ports in the country do not have the same bank balance or success. New Ross and Waterford would be well behind and most ports in the country are not doing so well, so amalgamation and consolidation may be the way forward. A due diligence report was to be drawn up by Cork Port authority examining the future of the operations in Cork and Bantry. Baltimore, which is a smaller port, is proposing that Cork County Council would take over operations.

The witness mentioned depth of water and the biggest tankers ever built came into Bantry. The jetty at Whiddy Island had a draught at neap tide of over 80 feet, a considerable depth. There may be a way of moving forward that would benefit the area I represent.

As the Deputy asked many questions we will allow the witnesses to respond before we hear from other joint committee members.

Mr. Keating

We will struggle to meet the timeframe of 2009. The challenge is to "sweat the assets" more by getting more out of the facility. As we do so, we must be conscious that vessels are getting larger and of the potential to lose business. It is critical that the new container facilities are advanced as quickly as possible. We hope to make a planning application for the new facility in April or May 2006. If there are delays we will be able to work on nonetheless.

Uniquely we have depths of water in Cork that are not readily available due to cost constraints. Dredging in the lower harbour of Cork is not a problem and it is at an absolute minimum. There are some constraints at the access points which may be difficult to overcome in the years ahead, but as we have depths in excess of 11 metres, and taking into account the markets we are in, we are happy that the depth will be sufficient for ten to 15 years.

The Oyster Bank scheme, once completed, will have a capacity to handle approximately 600,000 TEUs, giving us the opportunity to attract some deep sea business. However, I do not see the port ever being in a position to compete with a port like Rotterdam or Antwerp. They are well-established hub ports in the deep sea business. The future for Cork Port in particular, and I will let representatives from Dublin Port answer on its future, is in short sea shipping, especially in containers. We should concentrate on this area because it is the business we are currently in.

The Deputy also raised a question regarding Bantry Bay Harbour Commissioners. Cork Port and the commissioners agreed that a due diligence exercise would be undertaken and it is being finalised. I anticipate a final position on the issue in about a month and a half.

I also welcome Mr. Keating and thank him for a fine overview of the port operations.

We recently had a report from the OECD regarding Irish infrastructure which seemed to be a litany of disaster. In subjects such as broadband the country was bottom of the league. Surprisingly to many people, ports were also included and the country was 14th out of 16 in a list in terms of capacity and general efficiency. What is the witness's view on this? Is there much scope for making our ports proactive and efficient? Deputy O'Donovan made an interesting point about Rotterdam. Given our geographical situation as an island nation, is there any possibility of developing one of the great Irish ports as a hub?

On the issue of internal competition, I am aware the ports policy statement considered areas such as privatisation, greater competition and so on. Effectively, is there any serious competition between the Port of Cork Company and Dublin Port? I am aware from the report that half the trade of the country goes through Dublin. The bulk of that comes from within a radius of 80 km from the centre of Dublin. Therefore Dublin Port Company essentially serves the eastern area. Given new transport links, road and rail, is there any context in which the Port of Cork Company could directly compete with Dublin? Most of the parties, including me, have met the Drogheda Port Company. I have here its interesting prospectus for Bremore, north of Balbriggan for a massive port. If that major deep water facility was to be granted, how would it affect the Port of Cork Company and internal competition within the State? Fingal County Council has included it in its development plan. So far as I am aware, all the local politicians are in favour of it. How does Mr. Keating see it impacting on competition?

On the question of investment, I am more familiar with Dublin Port and the port area I represent in the Dáil. Obviously there is the controversy concerning the reclamation of 25 hectares, 52 acres. The Port of Cork Company appears to be going ahead without too much excitement about reclaiming a fairly large chunk of land. It did it previously at Ringaskiddy and so on. In terms of future investment is Mr. Keating suggesting he wants mergers? In regard to the 23 ports and ten national ports is he seeking mergers for big players who will compete? The report on the ports by the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Gallagher, states that he has an open mind on future privatisation. Is Mr. Keating saying that at some stage we may need to look at serious private investment to develop the ports? Perhaps we are just invigilating the area for the public. We are not experts and as my colleague has said if we wanted to develop one or more major European hubs, is that pie in the sky?

Mr. Keating

I am aware of the OECD report. It is difficult to establish the criteria used. However, nobody is complacent. There are issues in every port. There are issues in the Port of Cork Company with regard to efficiency of port services and we continually seek to improve those. A programme of improvement is taking place year in year out and we are making improvements in that regard. A fundamental issue to the efficiency of a port is the capacity of its infrastructure to handle ever-growing volumes of trade. The key issue is the adequacy of the infrastructure now and into the future. Having articulated to the committee that the Port of Cork Company has a need for additional infrastructure I cannot go back and say that would not be reflected in the OECD report. There is an issue here. The confidence the industry would get from a strong commitment, which I anticipate Government will give, to investment in port infrastructure into the future would seek to achieve a level of improvement in that OECD status.

On the issue of competition between ports, I would have no difficulty if, tomorrow morning, I could attract some of the business of Dublin Port to the port of Cork. We will continue to do that and the port of Dublin will seek to take business from the port of Cork. More particularly, and my colleague from Waterford is here also, there is strong competition between the port of Cork and the port of Waterford, particularly in the container business. That is day-to-day operational business practice and we compete on certain aspects of our business. We have a number of strengths on which I will not elaborate but the committee will see from my presentation some of our great strengths. There are other issues, such as pricing and so on, which enable us to compete and attract business. We have succeeded very well in recent years in growing our business. We have grown our container business by approximately 14%. Some of that has been organic growth, that is growth within the State, but we have also attracted new trade.

On the issue of competing on the container business — perhaps I should concentrate on the ro-ro business with Dublin — the largest volume of business in this area is in the central corridor that links Ireland and the UK. The port of Cork is challenged in that area in competing with the ports of Dublin and Rosslare and the ports of Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne, but more particularly with the port of Belfast. We have a difficulty there. That said, there are unique opportunities for us to be exploited with regard to the development of trade with western France and northern Spain. We are trying to exploit that. We have advantages there.

One of the great strengths of the port of Cork is that it is acknowledged to be an export port. We handle high volumes of export commodities and high value items, primarily because of the manufacturing base we are able to serve, that is, south Leinster, the west and the Munster region, supported also by the strong agricultural base in the Munster region. I cannot elaborate much more than that except to say there is competition between us and if we can takes boxes from Dublin we will take them and, equally, Dublin will take them from us. More particularly, I keep a close eye on the port of Waterford and the port Waterford keeps a close eye on the port of Cork.

It is difficult for me to comment on Bremore. If developed, Bremore would affect the port of Cork. I would be concerned to ensure that priority is given to establish ports where there are established trading patterns. The port of Cork is the only port on which I can comment. From that perspective, we have a unique advantage by virtue of our location and the depth of water, and we have an established facility. My argument is that we should support what we have. Drogheda Port Company is independent and I wish it every success with the development of its initiative.

We have succeeded in reclaiming significant areas of land in the Ringaskiddy basin. We have managed that having had due regard to the environmental issues but there are environmental challenges and I would not want to under estimate them. I would not like to comment on the position in Dublin as I do not know enough about it.

The last issue raised was that of privatisation. The ports policy document addresses that issue. The Minister said he has no hang-up either way. I agree with him when he says there will be opportunities for private sector investment in the development of facilities and, more particularly, in the development of services within the port region. If we are to prioritise our areas of action it would be on that area.

I thank Mr. Keating for his excellent presentation. With regard to leased property does the Port of Cork Company have long-term leases on properties at low rent? On the capacity issue when did Mr. Keating notify the Department of the capacity difficulties envisaged? With regard to the development plan published in February 2002 is Mr. Keating disappointed that nothing has happened in the short term given the growth in the economy and the growth in business at the port of Cork in imports and exports? Does Mr. Keating not see the immediate difficulty in that regard? In the absence of development not taking place, what solution does he propose?

Mr. Keating

On the lease issue, the Deputy referred to the point about Dublin Port. We have established that for the Port of Cork Company no legal issues arise.

Does the Port of Cork Company have tenants who have been there for 50 years but whose leases are not renewable or from whom he cannot get an increase?

Mr. Keating

We have leases over a longer period. One particular lease was for 100 years but that is due to expire shortly. The majority of our leases are in the range of nine to 30 years. For the main part, leases which were entered into in the past ten to 15 years have been for nine years.

There is an issue, however, with regard to the Landlord and Tenant Act in that with some of these leases the lessee is entitled to seek and get an extension. All of our recent leases have a provision which entitles the Port of Cork Company to seek a review of the level of lease agreement and charges. Some leases entered into in the 1940s and 1950s do not have that provision. We are examining those and are in negotiations with some of the people who have those leases to determine if we can buy back some of our interest in that area.

Of the total number of sites on 100 acres, what percentage of the company's property would come under the category of a 1940 type lease? Would it be 10% or 15%?

Mr. Keating

Approximately 15%. That is a very approximate figure. I do not know the figures off the top of my head but I could clarify that at a later stage if necessary.

Could a similar derogation to the one that occurred in Dublin Port, where somebody could re-sell at massive profits, prevail in Cork?

Mr. Keating

I have investigated that and I am satisfied that cannot happen now. There was a change in legislation recently and that loophole has been closed.

Will there be a total management contract on a 20 year lease for private concerns to operate the new capacity for container development?

Mr. Keating

I pointed out the position on that at the outset. We are trying to develop models for that but I would not be in a position to say which is the best and most appropriate model. We are examining those and we will decide at an appropriate stage what represents the best value for the Port of Cork Company and, ultimately, the taxpayer.

Will Mr. Keating clarify the position on the landlord and tenant legislation? The amendment passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas before the summer recess has copper-fastened any loophole that there may have been prior to that.

Mr. Keating

Yes, Chairman, in so far as there was one. I am not admitting that there was one.

There was not one in Cork.

Mr. Keating

No.

Is any further legislation required?

Mr. Keating

There is a need for some changes in legislation that would strengthen the port companies with regard to their land holdings. The Landlord and Tenant Act should be amended to give us a framework similar to that which exists for the airport companies.

I welcome Senator Morrissey and Deputy Haughey to the committee.

Mr. Keating is to be congratulated for his foresight and what he is attempting to do in Cork. He referred to the national ports capacity problem but I was not here for the start of the meeting, for which I apologise. If nothing was done in terms of development by any of the ports, what would be the position in terms of running out of both ro-ro and lo-lo capacity?

Mr. Keating said that the trend is towards larger vessels because of economies of scale and that his company could attract even more vessels suitable for a deep sea port. Those vessels carry large containers. Is the trend also towards large containers because of economies of scale? What is Mr. Keating's view of banning such containers? We are developing ports that will attract business because of economies of scale and the trend towards larger ships carrying larger vessels but there appears to be a contradiction in terms of whether those larger containers are welcome on our roads.

Mr. Keating

In my presentation I took the liberty of concentrating on the capacity issue only as it affected the port of Cork. The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources undertook a study a number of years ago, and had it updated in 2004 by the consultants, Baxter Eadie. It anticipated that the port of Cork would handle approximately 180,000 TEUs by 2014. We will handle in excess of 160,000 TEUs this year and, therefore, we believe the figure is slightly off the mark. That is why we are advancing the new facilities as quickly as we possibly can, particularly at Oyster Bank, which will enable us address that deficit issue where the port of Cork is concerned. People in other ports also have concerns about the predictions made in that study but I can only comment from the perspective of the port of Cork.

I agree with Senator Morrissey that in the shipping business there is a trend towards larger vessels. On the issue of the growth in containers, a significant influencing factor is the capacity of the land-based infrastructure for handling those containers. There are various environmental issues associated with that, primarily weight-bearing loads on roads and the capability of our bridges to handle these vessels. The market uses 42 foot boxes and we should gear towards that. Issues arise about higher cubes etc. but we should let regulation address that issue and let the market operate within the regulatory framework as it is developed in this country.

What is the position with the Port of Cork Company's pension fund? Is it over-subscribed? Is it generating funds?

Mr. Keating

The Port of Cork Company has a very small deficit on its pension fund. We would be approximately 92% to 93% funded at this time.

How much is in the company's pension fund?

Mr. Keating

In excess of €43 million or €44 million.

What is the shortfall?

Mr. Keating

Approximately €5 million.

When does Mr. Keating expect the fund to be fully subscribed?

Mr. Keating

We are taking measures currently and I expect that we will be funded in about four years. The company has introduced a particular measure which has eased the burden on the pension fund in the immediate term.

Moving to Ringaskiddy was mentioned and obviously there are plans for an increase in capacity. The Minister's statement on the port mentioned a deficit of 12.2 million tonnes in capacity and that he wants to bridge that gap in 2010 or 2012. I understand an audit is being carried out. Has Mr. Keating identified the port's capacity requirement during that period?

Mr. Keating

The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, was involved in this — commissioned a consultancy to carry out an evaluation on submissions invited from the port companies earlier this year. We anticipate that by February or March of 2006 this consultancy will have completed its assessment and will be in a position to make recommendations to Government as to the prioritisation of port projects.

Mr. Keating has obviously identified his capacity requirements.

Mr. Keating

Absolutely. We are primarily concerned about the development of a new container terminal. The Port of Cork Company's facility at Tivoli will reach its capacity by 2009. Our capacity is about 180,000 TEUs. We will handle in excess of 160,000 TEUs in the current year. There has been significant growth in our container business in recent years. We are working towards achieving that target.

In terms of the deficit of 12.2 million tonnes in capacity identified by the Department through the Minister's policy statement, what percentage of that will the port company bridge?

Mr. Keating

It is difficult to estimate that. As I said in reply to a point raised by Senator Morrissey, the Port of Cork Company would have an issue with some of the findings made by the consultancy that identified that deficit. I made the point that it indicated that we would have a volume of containers of 180,000 TEUs by 2014 whereas we reckon we will achieve that by 2007.

Mr. Keating touched briefly on funding. Has the company difficulty in funding its future capacity and infrastructural needs? Is that an issue the Department should examine? It is mentioned in the port's strategy policy. Would the company favour going down the route of applying a concession model, similar to the model we saw applied in Chile and Argentina, in Rosario, Buenos Aires and Valparaiso? Would that be the type of concession model whereby a 20 year licence would be given as a concession to a company, which would be responsible for any infrastructural improvements it would make to the pier and port and it would hand back the pier, so to speak, to the authority when the concession expires?

Mr. Keating

If I were to say "Yes" to that question, that would suggest there are no other models being used, but that is the model that seems to be most applied across the world. I emphasise that, for the major part, ports are supported by either themselves or the Exchequer. The market generally provides the berthing facilities and generally the paving and superstructure is supplied by a concessioner and operated for 20 to 25 years. That is a model used in the majority of ports. I would like to have the opportunity of considering in greater depth the models used elsewhere in order that we can bring forward the one most appropriate from our viewpoint.

The information we received from those we met during our fact-finding trip to Chile and Argentina is that the concession model, used in some of the ports, mainly in larger ports than the port of Cork, throughout the world, works. It is possible this committee could recommend the application of a model such as that one to the Minister and the Government.

Does COM 264 suggest that eight, 12 or 30 year leases should be given for the application of this or a similar model?

Mr. Keating

Yes.

Regarding the docklands strategy, Mr. Keating mentioned that he was in contact with Cork City Council.

Mr. Keating

Yes.

I read the docklands strategy recently. I do not know if Mr. Keating is aware it was I who proposed in 1999 that we should have a Cork city docklands strategy.

Mr. Keating

I am aware of that.

That might be suitably commemorated in the port area in time.

I do not think it will be. I think credit for that has been given to the CASP group even though I have the Evening Echo to prove it was my proposal by way of motion. Mr. Keating was no longer manager of the city council at that time.

A small statue of the Chairman pointing the way towards Argentina and Chile could be erected.

I would settle for getting re-elected.

Given the current environment and that the company is operating from the city quays and the 20-year docklands strategy, I presume the company is being consulted on that and that there is co-operation between the two State bodies?

Mr. Keating

Yes. There is consultation between the Port of Cork Company and Cork City Council, but that is not to say the Port of Cork Company does not have some concerns on aspects of it as they affect our trade, but there is co-operation between the Port of Cork Company and Cork City Council.

Without delving into the detail of that co-operation, given the size of the vessels the company is bringing up into Tivoli where there is a 6.5 metre depth of water, and I note there is a 5.2 metre depth of water at the city quays, and if the company is moving in the direction of handling larger vessels, is it the intention of the port to discontinue using the city quays for bulk transport and other activities and to stop using facilities at Tivoli?

Mr. Keating

Ultimately, the Port of Cork Company will have to relocate its facilities as the docklands development is advanced, but we have good business operations on those quays and we are concerned to ensure that nothing would be done to undermine that business. There is a trend towards using larger vessels and they demand a greater depth of water. It would be in our interest to have facilities in place in the lower harbour to accommodate the trade that is likely to be displaced. However, we have a number of customers in the city quays, people who have generated significant economic activity, who are large employers in the Cork region and whose businesses are dependent upon shipping activity for the foreseeable future.

What would be the value of the company's total land-bank?

Mr. Keating

we are currently engaged in an exercise that we anticipate will be completed in January next year when we will have an up to date valuation on the full extent of our land values. I would like to return and answer that question when that updated exercise is complete.

I have a number of other questions concerning the quays but I will leave them for the moment. Will Mr. Keating advise us on developments at Crosshaven Harbour? Am I correct in understanding that he has responsibility for that harbour and the pier?

Mr. Keating

Yes.

How do the leisure and fishing activities co-exist there? I ask about that aspect because the committee will examine regional harbours as part of this module. We have had the opportunity to visit harbours in Baltimore, Schull, Ballycotton and we will have a view on how they should be treated in terms of the transfer of responsibility for them to local authorities. The pier in Crosshaven is new and I was there recently. What are Mr. Keating's views on operations there?

Mr. Keating

We operate it. We have a management arrangement in place with an individual who does a particularly good job from the Port of Cork Company's perspective. It is not one of our commercial quays but we are delighted to be able to provide that service under the mandate we have where that area is concerned. We are concerned that there would be a harmonious existence in the harbour area among fishing, leisure and commercial interests. We are working on that. I hope to talk to the members of Cork County Council on Friday and, I hope, we will put forward a framework to it for the development of that aspect of harbour life.

To use that term "harbour life", is Mr. Keating satisfied that all three interests can co-exist?

Mr. Keating

Absolutely.

I apologise for labouring this point and we want to move forward and hear from the other group, but I note the N28 road upgrade must be undertaken to facilitate the new capacity and development in Ringaskiddy. The completion of that work is vital for the transportation of goods to and from the port.

Mr. Keating

Yes. From my viewpoint it is an absolute priority for the port of Cork, but more particularly for the greater Cork area. Ringaskiddy has great potential for significant, high value employment, in addition to the port's activities. There is an opportunity now to put infrastructure in place to ensure that the location continues to attract high quality jobs, in addition to enabling us to advance key elements of the infrastructure this country will require if it is to continue to trade successfully.

I note that Mr. Keating sent a submission to the Minister, Deputy Cullen, on this matter. Could he send a copy of the submission to the clerk also?

Mr. Keating

I will, of course.

We can circulate it to members of the committee. I take it they will be concerned about the infrastructure in providing services in and out of the port. That will be reflected in any report we may produce.

We visited the Marine Institute in Galway in September and were fascinated to hear that the maritime transport chain handles about €130 billion in trade. Does Mr. Keating agree with this?

Mr. Keating

Yes.

It mentioned Mr. Keating's own figures. This figure of €130 billion means that our ports have a major importance for the economy. Did Mr. Keating mention 95% volume and 80% value?

Mr. Keating

I said in excess of 95%. It varies between 95% and 99%, but for the purpose of correctness I said in excess of 95% in volume terms was handled through our ports. The value of that for the State is about €130 billion, based on 2003 figures.

That emphasises the importance of the ports.

May I ask Mr. Keating about the Cork-Swansea ferry? Since taking over this portfolio for the Labour Party, I have received long-standing complaints about the treatment of the work force on that ferry. It has been put to me by the International Transport Workers' Federation and by SIPTU that workers on the ferry are not allowed to join a trade union. Their pay and conditions are totally unacceptable for Irish workers. Recently, another Irish company was trying to replicate this situation. As far as I am aware, this yellow-packing of jobs began on the Swansea-Cork ferry. Distinguished trade unionists have been escorted off that ship and were prevented from talking to mariners who were fearful for their livelihoods. They are mostly east Europeans and people who are non-EU workers. I understand the necessity and importance of the ferry link but I put it to Mr. Hunter McGowan, the managing director of Swansea-Cork Ferries, that it is deplorable that the work force does not enjoy appropriate pay and conditions.

Mr. Keating is probably aware that the Taoiseach has stated that he may take some action based on the International Convention on the Law of the Sea concerning workers' pay and conditions and the flagging of ships. He indicated that the international convention requires that if one flies a flag one should have a material interest in that country. He has said he may well intervene in the Irish Ferries situation.

As far as I can see, the company led this race to the bottom for mariners and other seafarers who are now paid way below Irish or British minimum wage rates, despite the fact that they do a difficult and important job for the country. As the saying goes, "If you bought it, a ship brought it".

Many people forget that Ireland is an island nation. Those who hop on Ryanair flights seem to think that we are part of the European landmass, but Mr. Keating has made it clear today that we are not. Given all those circumstances, is it not deplorable that this workforce is denied Irish pay rates and working conditions, as well as trade union representation? It is happening in Mr. Keating's port.

Mr. Keating

Swansea-Cork Ferries is one of our treasured customers. It would be totally inappropriate for me to make any comment on any issue to do with an industrial relations matter concerning one of our customers. I do not propose to make any comment on that area.

Would it not be an outrageous breach of the law if the people who work for Mr. Keating's company in Ringaskiddy, Tivoli and all the other places he has mentioned were not paid the minimum wage rates the Government introduced, and did not enjoy Irish working conditions? Is it not outrageous, in turn, that fearful workers enter Mr. Keating's port from another EU member state and are treated in this manner?

Mr. Keating

I can only repeat myself, Chairman.

It is an issue for Mr. Keating's company.

Mr. Keating

I do not propose to make any comment. Even by saying that I will not comment, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the Deputy. It is not a matter for the Port of Cork Company.

I disagree with Mr. Keating. Surely it is a matter for him. He is providing services for this company. The week before last, we heard from Scottish maritime workers from ports such as Aberdeen that they have a licensing system. One cannot operate out of their ports unless it is assured that workers on board ships receive the pay and conditions of a European Union country or the countries between which the ship is plying. It is Mr. Keating's business because the company is doing business with the port of Cork.

Mr. Keating

Swansea-Cork Ferries is one of our major customers. It is doing business with us. I am not in a position to make any comment on how the company conducts its industrial relations affairs. It would be totally inappropriate for me to do so and I do not intend to do so.

I am not happy with that reply. Mr. Keating is the chief executive of the Port of Cork Company. This is happening in his port and it is unacceptable. Before Mr. Keating returns to the committee, I ask him to investigate this matter, to see if this is the situation. He should examine whether an international convention is being breached in any way by a company using Cork port. He should liaise with the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to see if legislation to reform the Merchant Shipping Acts is being planned — as I asked the Taoiseach this morning — to prevent this kind of abuse of workers who are doing business for us. Mr. Keating said they are doing our business. I welcome migrant workers, but it is important for us to ensure they are given the proper conditions appropriate to the Irish workforce, including mariners.

If new legislation is required for vessels entering our ports, would that question not be more applicable to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources? Mr. Keating does not have to answer anything. I am advised that any ships entering American ports must abide by the labour laws of the United States. We must examine and investigate that question. We will probably have to tease it out with the Minister. Perhaps we can obtain more information before that session with the Minister.

I thank Mr. Keating for appearing before the committee. The members are grateful to him for having travelled from Cork for this meeting. I thank him for having arranged our visit to Cork two years ago to see the port facilities as well as the work undertaken by the staff under his direct control.

I understand that Mr. Keating will send some information to the committee and if we have any other questions the clerk, having examined the transcripts, will revert to him.

Mr. Keating

I thank you, Chairman. I was honoured to be invited here and I thank the committee for affording me the opportunity to address the meeting.

Thank you, Mr. Keating. We will now suspend the meeting for five minutes before calling the officials from Dublin Port.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at 4.05 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Enda Connellan, Mr. Michael Sheary and Mr. Seamus McLoughlin from the Dublin Port Company. I understand that representatives of the company appeared before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Environment and Local Government on 28 September when that committee considered the environmental aspects of plans to in-fill 52 acres of Dublin Bay at the Tolka Estuary. We will receive a short presentation and this will be followed by a question and answer session.

I draw everybody's attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but that this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before Mr. Connellan begins, I advise that a number of members must attend other committee meetings. The fact we are few in number does not mean the presentation is not important to the committee. It will be structured around the port strategy document published by the Minister in January.

Mr. Enda Connellan

Tá mé buíoch den choiste i gcomhair an chruinnithe seo.

My presentation follows on from a visit by some members of the committee to Dublin Port last July. I hope this visit provided a useful opportunity to see the operations of the port at first hand and to learn of some of the difficult and challenging issues facing us in the coming years. I recently made a presentation to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Environment and Local Government. Members may not be aware but, at that meeting, Dóchas pointed out that the proximity between Dublin Port and Bull Island was a particularly good European example of how ports and nature can live together.

It may be useful for members if I outline some of the key facts relating to Dublin Port. As they are aware, ports in Ireland play a critical role in facilitating the vibrant economy that has accompanied recent prosperity and growth. The upturn in economic activity during the past ten years has been facilitated by the Irish ports but it has also placed increasing demands on existing facilities and raised serious capacity issues which need to be urgently addressed.

Dublin Port, for example, saw growth in excess of 20% over a four-year period between 2000 and 2004. Since 1992, there has been a fourfold increase in the throughput of Dublin Port. At present, 42% of Ireland's GDP is exported through Dublin Port. It is a significant and major aspect of national infrastructure. Container numbers are currently growing at a rate of 10% per annum at Dublin Port. To respond to this demand, we have continually invested in facilities to make the best use of existing land available to us.

Since 1997, the Dublin Port Company has invested more than €136 million on infrastructure improvements. It did so without seeking any Exchequer funding. At the same time, it endeavoured to keep charges to customers as low as possible, undertook cost reduction programmes and introduced competition within the port. Competitiveness is widely accepted as the priority issue for sustaining growth. The Institute of Management Development shows that Ireland's competitiveness slipped from fifth to 11th place between 2000 and 2003. The study further identifies transport infrastructure as an increasingly significant factor in this decline. The 2005 update of the study shows that our ports infrastructure ranks, on average, fourth from bottom in Europe.

Customers of the Dublin Port Company have a wide range of competing stevedoring companies and competing scheduled services from which to choose. It operates on a price competitive basis by national and international standards. The key challenge for Dublin Port is to ensure that it has adequate facilities available to meet projected demand and capacity in the coming years. In particular, it requires sufficient access to land that is adjacent to deep-sea berths, which are urgently needed. At present, it has access to all available deep water and shore-side facilities at Dublin Port but it has an urgent requirement for more. As trends in shipping continue to evolve and larger vessels which require larger berths appear, we need to keep pace with these developments. As a trading nation highly dependent on international trade, we require facilities to accommodate larger and more efficient vessels or else both importers and exporters will need to utilise less efficient methods of importing and exporting goods.

The Dublin Port Company has assessed that, on the basis of its current and projected throughput of imports and exports, it will reach operational capacity by 2007. From the end of 2007, the Dublin Port Company will not have adequate facilities to deal with the volume of business generated by its customers. The capacity shortages of Dublin Port have been recognised by the Irish Exports Association, the chambers of commerce, including the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, and IBEC. Consultants employed by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources have confirmed that Dublin and other ports are facing capacity shortfalls. It is worth noting that the consultants' projections are conservative and below ESRI projections. This year, Dublin Port has experienced growth of more than 10% in the lo-lo sector, while total throughput growth has grown by 7%. In addition, the economic consultant, Mr. Peter Bacon, commented on the urgent need for additional capacity to be created at Dublin Port to facilitate future demand. At modest growth rates of between 4% and 5%, our throughput is forecast to increase by 11 million tonnes by 2013.

It is important to recognise that if capacity shortfalls already identified are not addressed at Dublin Port, the consequences will be serious for all sectors in the economy. Exporters will face increasing delays and additional costs in terms of getting goods to market. There will also be delays and additional cost implications for the wide variety of raw materials and consumer goods imported to Ireland. These include food, white goods, vehicles, clothing, furniture and other necessary items used by people on a daily basis. At a time when there is an increased recognition of the rights of consumers, the efficient and effective operation of Dublin Port is an issue for all Irish consumers who seek low prices and wider choice.

As members who visited the port are aware, we have advanced a proposal to develop the north-eastern edge of the port in order to create additional unitised trade berthing facilities. The proposal involves reclaiming a new area of approximately 600 metres by 350 metres. This will involve the construction of a new quay on the southern edge, with the construction of ramps and other structures that are associated with the provision of such facilities close east. This proposal has been advanced by the Dublin Port Company in the context of few alternatives available. As we explained to members during their visit, the company does not have control over significant tracts of land at the port, which is held by tenants under long leases. We have endeavoured to recover land from tenants but this has been costly, slow and difficult and compounded by inappropriate landlord-tenant legislation. We are also faced with the challenge that much of the land currently held on long leases is remote from the deep-sea berths that are so urgently required.

We have made recommendations to the Government on the changes required to the landlord and tenant legislation to facilitate the effective operation of the port area and we hope that the Government can respond urgently to our request. The major strategic issue for Dublin Port is that there are no other facilities within the existing port where we can access deep berths. To meet the need for additional capacity, we must create extra deep-water berths and the only viable way of doing so is through the reclamation proposal advanced.

One other issue that has been mentioned is the possible relocation of the port. There are three fundamental problems with such a proposal. First, the development and commissioning of a new port is unlikely to be achieved with a ten-year period. I would be highly dubious that any alternative port required to meet the capacity currently served by Dublin Port could be operational in the medium term, given that more than 11 years have passed since the tunnel was given the green light. The extent of capital and construction works involved and the need to link infrastructure and planning issues involved should not be underestimated. The demand for additional capacity is immediate and not something that can be pushed off on a ten-year timescale.

Second, relocating the port has added complications, given that the market that Dublin Port serves has heavy regional emphasis. For example, 50% of imports and exports to Dublin Port remain within the M50 area, while 75% remain within 80 km of the port. Given that the market exists in the locality of the port, it makes no sense to relocate the port further from the market and, therefore, add to additional costs and delays as the traffic must trundle back into the city on the same overcrowded roads for a longer period. The most cost effective and environmentally-friendly way to bring goods to market is to transport goods to the heart of the market.

Third, relocating the port is likely to involve considerable direct and indirect capital costs. The previous suggestion to relocate Dublin Port north of Loughshinny in north Dublin in 1992 suggested that the capital cost would be €500 million at that stage. With increasing land prices, costs of construction and project costs, I suspect that figure is conservative. In addition, relocating the port at this stage would render the investment in the Dublin Port tunnel to be marginal.

Some members may wonder how the Dublin Port Company may seek additional land, while at the same time being associated with the development of a national conference centre on part of the lands at Dublin Port. I am pleased to have an opportunity to address this issue directly with members, even though I need to be circumspect in what I say, given that the matter is before the Minister for decision.

The task force on the development of port estates in commercial harbours indicated that all State and semi-State companies have a key obligation to maximise the use and value of State lands. In this regard, the Dublin Port Company attaches two key overriding criteria. First, utilising port land for non-port purposes can only be permitted if it does not negatively impact on the operation of the port. Second, before any development takes place, all necessary consents and permissions must be secured for the proposal both from Government and the relevant planning authorities.

In this instance, the Dublin Port Company received a proposal from the Anna Livia consortium to make land available in the event that the consortium wins the contest for the national conference centre. The company management assessed the proposal in conjunction with our legal and property advisers, Arthur Cox and Hamilton Osborne King. The proposal was fully considered by the board and unanimously approved by it in May 2005, subject to no diminution of operational lands, ministerial consent, the consortium being successful in the bid and compliance with all relevant regulatory and planning obligations.

Would that break the code of practice for the Government?

The Deputy should allow Mr. Connellan to continue.

Mr. Connellan

As members will be aware, the Dublin Port Company and CIE are both facilitating rival bids from private sector consortia for the development of a conference centre at strategic locations in the Dublin docklands area.

The Anna Livia consortium proposal envisages that there was no net loss of operational land at Dublin Port. Therefore, the development does not involve any reduction in our operational capacity. This is feasible as the greater part of the development is to be carried out at podium level so that the land underneath can continue to be used for port purposes throughout the construction phase as well as after completion. It is merely a question of making better use of the land we have, without diminishing our operational capacity and at the same time providing funds for the necessary expansion, as required by the port policy, and the task force on the development of port estates in commercial harbours.

As members are aware, this proposal is currently before the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources who is taking advice from the Attorney General and the Department of Finance on it. They may rest assured that the proposal is subject to the necessary consents from Government and the local authority and is contingent on the Anna Livia consortium winning the national conference centre bid. They are all matters outside the control of the Dublin Port Company.

The creation of additional capacity at Dublin Port is urgent if the port is to continue to service its customers into the future and remain an important aspect of national infrastructure. The relative importance of Dublin compared to its next largest rival can be seen in the appendix. We have thoroughly assessed all means of providing additional capacity and looked at all alternatives. Our conclusion is that the best proposal, in terms of the cost of the development, the scale of the development and the time to completion is the reclamation of land at the north eastern fringe of the port. With the appropriate regulatory approval, I am confident Dublin Port can deliver this new capacity in a manner consistent with the port's policy published earlier this year by the Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Gallagher. In particular, Dublin Port can fund the development without recourse to Exchequer funding.

I hope this proposal can be advanced in the next 12 months in order that we can move some way towards meeting the capacity constraints before they occur. I thank the committee for its attention and time and look forward to answering any questions on our submission.

I welcome the chief executive, Captain Connellan, and his colleagues to the committee. I thank them for the extended tour of the port in July and for showing us, particularly people such as me who live on the edge of the bay, how the port works.

The code of practice for the governance of State bodies, which was published by the Minister for Finance in 2001, states:

It should be standard practice that the disposal of assets of State bodies for the granting of access to property or infrastructure for commercial arrangements e.g. joint ventures with third parties, with an anticipated value at or above a threshold level of €70,000, should be by auction or competitive tendering process other than in exceptional circumstances (such as a sale to a charitable body).

It is quite clear this is ministerial code of practice for the governance of State bodies, of which Dublin Port is one. However, Mr. Connellan stated in his presentation that in May 2005 — without following this code of practice from what I can see — Dublin Port came to an agreement with the Anna Livia consortium, which I understand included developers, Bennett Construction, the Kilsaran group and Gallaghers, for from 27 acres to 32 acres, on the basis that the consortium would take part in a bid for the national conference centre. Presumably, looking at the map we received a few months ago, that land is directly opposite the Point Depot.

Dublin Port wrote to me, subsequent to my making a public statement on this matter, saying that during our visit we were acquainted with the general idea of this development. I remember there was some discussion of the Irish Glass Bottle Company site, although I did not understand the implications in the boardroom. I do not remember any discussion of the conference centre. It seemed to us that we spent half the afternoon out in Clontarf, because the Chairperson, being a Corkonian did not understand what the fuss was about. In an effort to find out we went out to Clontarf to see why the people there were worried about us reclaiming 52 acres when we seem to be surrendering 30 acres of the existing port to this Anna Livia consortium.

Vincent Browne and many other journalists have said that this smells of a sweetheart deal. Is it not a fact that there seems to be a prearranged agreement between the Dublin Port board and this consortium and that the board did not follow the code of practice? As my party leader asked, "Should this deal not have been cancelled as it was absolutely wrong?"

The board mentioned in its correspondence to me that the conference centre would be on a podium. I wonder how that would work in a working port. We saw the plans for Lansdowne Road stadium being announced with a fanfare the other day and it seems a new departure in architecture. However, a conference centre on a podium is difficult to comprehend.

I put it to Dublin Port that its board did not follow the code of practice on the governance of State bodies, that its joint venture should be cancelled and that it was wrong for it to pursue this course without going to tender or auction where any interested party could have become involved. My Fine Gael colleague, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, was the first to raise this matter in the House. These are the facts, are they not?

With regard to the Irish Glass Bottle Company land on the south wharf, we got a briefing from Dublin Port with respect to the deficiencies of the Landlord and Tenant Act. That being the case, was it not extraordinary that on 19 May 2005 the Taoiseach came into the House to say it was urgent that we passed a Bill that morning to protect State lands? That Bill was to protect State lands in respect of section 4 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act 1978 because the Act had a deficiency in that if a tenant had access to the fee simple, he or she could buy out valuable State property for a consideration of, perhaps, 15 times the annual rent — a rent that could be quite low.

Is it not extraordinary that on that morning the port and maritime lands were not included in the lands covered in the emergency legislation and that we had to return to the issue later and tack provisions on to one of the maritime Bills to try to protect port lands? The Minister and Minister of State, Deputies Dempsey and Gallagher were remiss in sitting around the Cabinet table without informing the Taoiseach that not alone were airport, local authority and various other landholdings in danger as a result of the defective legislation, but also our ports. Is it not extraordinary that Dublin Port did not warn the Minister and Minister of State to inform the Taoiseach that this was the case in order that we would not end up in the danger we are in with regard to the south wharf?

I will summarise, but there are issues to which I may return. Dublin Port willfully broke the code of practice with regard to the national conference centre and should not have proceeded in the manner it did. On the south wharf and the Irish Glass Bottle Company site Dublin Port and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources did not warn the Oireachtas about the danger to the landholdings of this State.

Deputy Broughan has levied very serious charges against the Dublin Port board. I ask Mr. Connellan to answer as precisely as possible all of the questions raised. If he feels he does not have answers to all the questions today, I am prepared to suspend this meeting, after we have taken other questions, in order that he may come back next week, or when the committee directs, with the answers. It is important we get the answers.

Mr. Connellan

There is a great deal of misconception on the meaning and practice of the code of conduct. I am satisfied the best deal for the company was done. I am also satisfied that we are fully compatible with the statutory and departmental requirements regarding the conduct of the process into which we entered. This is now a matter for the Minister. The proposal has the full support of the board and it is subject to the four important conditions.

How can the company satisfy itself that it got the best deal if it did not have a competitive offer? How can it possibly know that?

Mr. Connellan

It is a judgment call. As chief executive of the company I make a judgment call. Now it is a matter for the Minister.

There was no competing tender against which to judge it.

Mr. Connellan

There is no loss of operational land. This is quite an unusual deal.

It is a very unusual deal.

Mr. Connellan

Yes it is, because what we are talking about here are rights.

People would bid on those if there was an asset for which they were willing to pay. As a small business person I would not get the smallest job done without getting a couple of tenders to decide the best price. If I was selling something, I would seek a couple of bidders to see if I could get a better price. How can Mr. Connellan judge he got the best deal if he only had one bidder?

Mr. Connellan

I can judge it because I took advice from the best property advisers in town.

Do they operate on the basis that if they are selling a house all they want is one bidder to give them an idea of what the house is worth?

Mr. Connellan

They are not selling a house. They are paid to give me advice. I took advice and that is the reason I am satisfied we have the best deal the company could get. I am challenged to find the best deal for the company.

It is not possible to ascertain the best deal if there are not two bids.

Mr. Connellan

The Deputy may question my judgment but he cannot question my integrity in this matter.

Was Mr. Connellan aware of the existence of at least one other interested consortium? This land is worth €800 million or €900 million.

Mr. Connellan

If such a proposal was received I would examine it just as I examined all proposals. We did not receive another proposal.

Did the company seek other proposals?

Mr. Connellan

No, we did not seek other proposals.

Is it normal practice for a State company not to seek another proposal?

Mr. Connellan

A proposal is currently before the Minister. In due course we will find out exactly what the commercial realities of this deal were but I am not at liberty to say what they are now. I can assure the committee that the best possible deal that could be done for the company was achieved.

From listening to the concerns expressed by the members, that answer is not acceptable to the committee. There are too many unanswered questions and too many allegations. This committee may need to consider other ways of getting all the information on this matter from Mr. Connellan and from the Dublin Port Company.

Mr. Connellan

All the information is with the Minister who is the representative shareholder.

I am not talking about the Minister. This committee wishes to satisfy itself that everything stated by Mr. Connellan is correct and this may involve requiring access to all the documentation on this matter. There are procedures for obtaining this material, as Mr. Connellan will be aware.

Does Mr. Connellan accept that the Dublin Port Company is a semi-State company and this code of practice for the governance of State bodies applies to it?

Mr. Connellan

I accept that Dublin Port Company is a private limited company wholly owned by the State.

Therefore, the Minister for Finance's guidelines must apply to it. This would also be true for CIE. One could argue that any kind of sweetheart deal by any public State company would be wrong. This clearly became a matter of controversy because there were others who were interested in the possibility. There was a controversy on the north side of Dublin about the company reclaiming 25 hectares because the land is too expensive to be used for maritime purposes. Everybody was astonished.

Why did the company not go to the Minister before last May and ask him to refer to the Attorney General to ascertain if the company had adhered to the code of practice?

Mr. Connellan

The company has taken the best legal and property advice available. In my judgment this is the best deal that could be done for the company. In my judgment and in the judgment of my legal advisers, we have adhered to all statutory and departmental issues.

I cannot believe it could be said the best advice in any property deal, particularly in this city at present where property values have reached incredible heights, would be to advise a vendor to look for one bid and not to go beyond that. This is not credible.

Mr. Connellan

There are several issues involved in this deal, all of which are before the Minister. The company maintains control over the land and I cannot see how it could possibly be put out for tender.

I referred to the code of practice. Section 15(2) of the Harbours Act 1996 states: "The consideration for which any land is sold by a company shall, in so far as is practicable, not be less than its open market value". Surely the arrangement at issue here is one for the sale of land that was calculated in such a way as to keep that land away from the open market? Unless it is completely impracticable, why would the company not have sought an open market valuation? Journalists who have researched this matter seem to be of the view that this is highly valuable land. Surely the company has a duty under the Harbours Act and under the code of practice, as Deputy Ryan said, to seek an open market valuation?

Mr. Connellan

The land is not sold.

But it will be sold.

Mr. Connellan

No. That is dependent on four criteria.

It will be sold if those criteria are met.

Mr. Connellan

Yes. One of the criteria is the Minister's consent.

Is the company aware of other bidders for the national conference centre?

Mr. Connellan

I am aware of another proposal to have the national conference centre built elsewhere.

It would not be a difficult matter in this city for any property adviser, law firm or auctioneering firm worth their salt, when faced with a proposal for an unusual plot of land, to make an approach to the type of institutions who would be interested in such land in such a location and secure a competing bid within half a day. I am amazed this did not happen.

Mr. Connellan

It is a capacity issue. The reason interest is being taken is that the company is perceived as looking for land in one place and selling land in another but this is not the case.

I am not saying that.

Mr. Connellan

But that is the issue here.

It is part of it.

I am concerned about why a second bid was not sought on significant land close to the city centre in the ownership of the State. I do not understand how that can be seen to be representing value for money for the people of this country for the lands which they own. It is incredible the land is being sold without a second bidder being looked for.

Mr. Connellan

There is no loss to the port of operational land.

The matter is not with the Minister. The Department of Finance and the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources have referred the matter to the Attorney General for his advice. Some advice was given by the Attorney General on 29 July but further advice is awaited. It is obvious the two Departments have concerns about the situation.

I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on this issue on 11 October. In his reply the Minister stated that the code of practice requires examination and the Attorney General's advice is being sought on the matter. It seems clear the two Departments, the Departments of Finance and Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, have concerns about the manner in which this issue was handled.

Mr. Connellan referred to the capacity issue and dealt with it in length in his address. The people of Clontarf simply cannot understand why it is proposed to reclaim 52 acres on the one hand while disposing of 32 acres on the other. Many people do not believe what the company says about the capacity issue. If the company is disposing of 32 acres, why does it need to reclaim 52 acres, particularly considering the environmental objections to the proposal? The company's arguments on the issue of capacity must be challenged.

Mr. Connellan

I think I am speaking English, at least I hope I am. There is no loss of operational land.

Will Mr. Connellan explain the podium concept to the committee?

Mr. Connellan

One truck cannot be parked on top of another. The company can park all the trucks it wishes underneath this podium and the land can be used. I suggest I am challenged by both the port's policy and by the study carried out by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, on the use of port estates, to find unique ways of using the land we have and this is what the company is doing.

The committee is attempting to visualise this, just as the new Lansdowne Road must be visualised. From what Mr. Connellan said I had visions of ships weaving their way in and out under the podium under the conference centre but now we seem to be talking in terms of a major underground car park underneath a facility.

Mr. Connellan

That is correct.

Will there be office and residential development above the podium? It would be possible to have such development. A small three-acre site in my constituency, quite a distance from the city centre, recently sold for €16 million. I would imagine that 32 acres in the docks to be used for accommodation, retail or office development would have a value to the State of many hundreds of millions of euro.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

Regardless of the capacity issue, it is not credible that there would not be a second bidder in the transaction of such a deal. I would question the sanity of any householder who agreed to sell his or her house to one person offering a particular amount without considering looking for a second bidder.

Mr. Connellan

I cannot follow that, namely, that the position is incredible.

I find it incredible.

Mr. Connellan

I do not.

I ask Deputy Eamon Ryan to repeat the question. I ask Mr. Connellan to please co-operate with the committee. He must answer, as we are not here for the good of our health. We are here to ask specific questions and I want the answers to those questions. If Mr. Connellan is not in a position to answer, he should say so and we can do something else about it. Does Mr. Connellan understand?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

I ask Deputy Eamon Ryan to repeat the question.

I am stating the obvious. A site of that size that close to the city centre is a very valuable commodity. How could it be sold without seeking a second bidder? It makes no sense.

Mr. Connellan

I cannot answer that question.

I suggest that the committee should invite the Minister to come before it to discuss this matter. We should consider the issue of compellability legislation and whether we should seek all the documentation on this matter and start an inquiry. It is a matter for the committee to consider in private session. Is Mr. Connellan quite satisfied that he had regard to the corporate governance as laid down by the Government regarding these matters?

Mr. Connellan

I am quite satisfied. My legal advisers have also informed me so.

It is clear that Mr. Connellan did not adhere to the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and did not adhere to section 5 of the Harbours Act regarding this matter.

Mr. Connellan

No, it is not quite clear. I have adhered to these in so far as they are applicable to this particular issues and I am satisfied that I have done so.

I have another question on the capacity issue. I am sure Mr. Connellan is aware of a report by Jerome Casey, an independent economic consultant, entitled Dublin and its Port: the Port Serving the City or the City Serving the Port, published in June 2004. Mr. Casey compares the productivity of the port with other comparably sized ports in the European Union. With regard to quayside operations, he discovered that during 2002 Dublin Port's container facilities operated at 32% of the quay productivity levels of other EU ports of similar size. On the less critical issue of container storage, he stated that Dublin Port appeared to perform somewhat better but that it was still not up to standard. In 2002 the Dublin Port Company achieved 55% of the container storage productivity figures achieved in benchmark EU ports in 1998. What is Mr. Connellan's response to the findings of this independent economic consultant?

Mr. Connellan

First, I am not aware of the report. It was mentioned at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government. I have not received a copy of it and I do not know what criteria or ports were used.

I will certainly make a copy of the report available to Mr. Connellan.

I am keen to hear an answer to Deputy Broughan's question on the Irish Glass Bottle Company site. What is the Dublin Port Company's proposed use of the site? Who has the final say? Has it been legally resolved as to how the site should be used or developed? When can we expect to see development, of whatever nature, on that site?

Following the presentation Mr. Connellan made in July, I approached various people who are actively engaged in transport planning, etc. None of them accepted the figures Mr. Connellan has provided today, namely, that 50% of port traffic terminates within the area bounded by the M50. In my constituency and neighbouring constituencies on the south side I can see very little traffic going to the port from our part of the city within the area bounded by the M50. As policymakers, we must make decisions for the overall benefit of the city. I contend that the city is suffering from being at the centre of an access route to a busy port. The city would benefit tremendously from the creation of an alternative location for port traffic, such as that proposed close to Balbriggan, which would still be close to the M50 and which would not bring trucks through the city centre. Unfortunately, trucks will still be obliged to come into the city when the port tunnel opens. From where did Mr. Connellan obtain the figure of 50% in respect of traffic that terminates within the area bounded by the M50?

Mr. Connellan

I believe the question being posed to me is where we are getting the 50%. We seem to be the only body that has carried out an origin-destination study, which is where we got the information. No other body has carried out such a study. We have asked them to do it but it has not been done. It was from there that we got the figures I quoted.

At Question Time today with the Minister for Transport, I asked about the ten-year transport plan. Based on my reading of the reply, it appears that the eastern bypass will not be included in such a plan. As the Minister said he had no costing, it indicated to me that it is very unlikely to be included. I welcome this development. This again relates to the question about the Irish Glass Bottle Company site. As a public policy maker, why should I not promote what I would like to see happen, namely, the development of the south docks — an area of potentially outstanding natural beauty — which are close to the city centre and which could provide a fantastic location for residential development? Given that the eastern bypass will not proceed and in light of the difficulties that will arise in terms of managing traffic crossing the Liffey when the port tunnel opens, why should we not support the use of the south docks as a high quality new residential area rather than — as is largely the case at present in view of the cement and metal recycling plants and a number of other port-related activities — as an industrial site? A large section of the site is used for storage of containers. This appears to be an incredibly poor use of land in what could become one of the best residential areas in the city.

Does Mr. Connellan have no response?

Mr. Connellan

Is the question I am being asked——

Does the failure to proceed with the eastern bypass have an effect on the potential development of Dublin Port Company?

Mr. Connellan

I would prefer if the eastern bypass went ahead.

What if it does not?

Mr. Connellan

If the bypass does not proceed, it would, depending on whatever HGV policy is proposed by Dublin City Council, have a negative effect on us.

It might strengthen the case for using some of those lands for residential purposes instead.

Mr. Connellan

I am not a property developer. I do not know.

On the substantive issue——

I wish to call Deputy Perry first.

I would like to finish on this issue, as Mr. Connellan did not address it in response to my question on the Irish Glass Bottle Company site. What is the latest position in that regard? Apparently the Minister, following inquiries from the media, heard about the Dublin Port Company's plans regarding the conference centre. In July, Mr. Connellan showed us a document that was a few months old. Did he alert the Minister to the problem with the Irish Glass Bottle Company site? The two Ministers did not carry out their duties in respect of that site — they sat mute at the Cabinet table, rather than warning the Taoiseach that the port lands had to be included in the emergency legislation on 19 May. Is that the case in relation to the south docks site? What is happening with it now?

Mr. Connellan

The Deputy has asked a number of questions.

I ask Mr. Connellan not to comment on the two Ministers because they are not here. We do not know what they did or did not do at the Cabinet table.

We know what the chief executive did. He showed us the paper, which I presume he sent to the Ministers.

We are discussing this matter now.

In this case, unfortunately, the two Ministers did not do what needed to be done in respect of the south docks site.

I ask Deputy Broughan to focus on the issues being discussed by the committee. If we start bringing Ministers into this, we will have to invite them to address the committee.

Both of them have responsibilities in this regard.

What are the plans for the Irish Glass Bottle Company site?

Mr. Connellan

As the matter was the subject of the proceedings in court 33 yesterday, it is sub judice.

Does Dublin Port have any plans for the development of the glass bottle site?

Mr. Connellan

Dublin Port plans to try to protect the site formerly used by the Irish Glass Bottle Company, which ceased its operations some years ago. The port company was in court for six days, on two occasions. Last January or February, a court decided that one of the sites should be returned to the company. We all know what happened following the IDA site and this proposal to find a sham way of getting a lease back. We are fighting that and it is in the courts.

When the emergency legislation was brought before the Dáil, was the south wharf company not alerted to the deficiency in the law as it pertained to the Irish Glass Bottle Company site? The company became aware that the ports were not included. While it was not the fault of the Dublin Port Company that the ports were not included, was it not the fault of the two Ministers?

Mr. Connellan

I think——

Mr. Connellan showed us a document that indicated that the 1978 Act was deficient. The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, sat on his hands and said nothing, thereby allowing the plot of land on the south docks to fall into the hands of——

The Minister is not here to speak for himself.

No, because we made——

It is not fair on the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, who is not here.

I am asking whether the chief executive warned the Cabinet — I refer in particular to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources — before the morning of 19 May that the 1978 Act was deficient.

Mr. Connellan

In that particular respect, the answer is "No".

Did Mr. Connellan warn the Cabinet generally?

I appreciate that the Dublin Port Company cannot get involved in the deliberations of the courts, but can Mr. Connellan outline to the committee the substance of the case that was brought in court 33 yesterday?

Mr. Connellan

I am sorry, but I cannot do so because I was not there.

I presume the company was represented by counsel.

Mr. Connellan

Yes. I do not know exactly what happened. The company will do everything in its power to protect the site in question for the State.

I welcome Mr. Connellan to this meeting. I would like to ask about the lack of capacity at Dublin Port. When did the Dublin Port Company first become aware of the imminent problem at the port?

Mr. Connellan

More than 20 years have passed since the company started to plan the expansion of the port. The ability of the company to cope with the capacity of the port is a tribute to its board and management team. The company has informed the Department that the ability of the company to cope is coming quickly to an end, however. The Department has hired consultants to work on the matter.

I accept that there is a degree of urgency in this regard. I appreciate that the company has brought this matter into the public domain. The economic boom of recent years had led to an increase in imports and exports. I have visited Dublin Port on two occasions. I compliment the Dublin Port Company on the efficient manner in which it runs the port. I was at the port when the cruise liners arrived. As the level of imports and exports has increased, the port company has coped very well, under tight constraints, and generated a great deal of business. I am concerned about the Department's level of commitment to the development of the port. Has the Department responded to the port company's proposals in a tangible way? Other members have alluded to some of the problems associated with the expansion of the port, such as the relocation of the TFUs. Has the port company considered moving containers to an out-of-town site, perhaps near the port tunnel? Such relocation might alleviate the port's capacity problems.

Mr. Connellan

I am not sure that the Department understood the urgency of the port company's capacity problems as it ran out of space. The diagrams included in the documentation I have submitted indicate the growth of Dublin Port in various sectors. Some of the company's investment in Dublin Port has been sub-optimal — in other words, it could have used the money better if it had more space. The company, along with some private sector interests, invested in Greenore Port at a time when it was losing €350,000 per year. Greenore Port is now making a profit of approximately €500,000 per year. The company proposes to extend the port, for example by developing lo-lo facilities there.

What is the capacity of Greenore Port?

Mr. Connellan

The port company reckons that 200,000 units could be brought through the port, which has yet to be the subject of the regulatory process that has been completed in respect of Dublin Port.

Does Mr. Connellan agree that this country's ports policy has been flawed by faulty legislation? I refer to decisions taken in respect of major State assets and long-term leases. It is evident that the Landlord and Tenant Acts have caused many problems. Have legislative problems contributed to the difficulties being encountered at Dublin Port as it tries to maximise its potential to develop?

Mr. Connellan

Yes. The Chairman asked the previous speaker about concessions. The problem with the Landlord and Tenant Acts is that if one grants a concession for more than five years, one might as well grant if for 9,000 years. The port company would like the legislation to be changed because, as it stands, it is not possible to grant a concession for ten, 15 or 20 years. A concession can be granted for such periods of time in the UK.

I am trying to be objective. I appreciate that the work of Dublin Port facilitates the growth of the economy. When I visited the port, I was impressed by its evident ability to get business in and out despite Dublin's transport difficulties, some of which are caused by the current development of the port tunnel. The growth of the retail sector depends on the transportation of goods, using ro-ro facilities, so that they are on UK shelves within a couple of hours. Our economic success is related to our ability to move goods in and out in the shortest time possible. What are the principal obstacles preventing Dublin Port from proceeding with its current development plans? As Mr. Connellan has said, the plans have been discussed for 20 years. We are trying to increase the capacity of our airports in the interests of economic growth. People may think that most goods are imported by air, but in fact 98% of imported goods arrive in this country via Dublin Port. Does Mr. Connellan agree that an emphasis needs to be placed on our ports, just as it is placed on our airports?

Mr. Connellan

I am not an expert on airports. The obstacles to the development of Dublin Port are regulatory in nature. It does not seem to me that the Dublin Port Company's request to the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources for consents and permissions under sections 10 and 13 of the Foreshore Act 1933 has been dealt with. The company has produced an environmental impact statement on two occasions. On the local government side, it is not part of the city development plan. I have mentioned some fairly major obstacles.

If the company is precluded from developing additional capacity at Dublin Port, will it be able to minimise the impact on the Irish economy of its loss of potential capacity? The Dublin Port tunnel is costing in the region of €1 billion. If Dublin Port does not have the capacity to increase its business, perhaps the company will consider the possibility of moving the TFUs, the 20 ft. equivalents, to a different location near the entrance of the tunnel. On a recent visit to the port I noted the 40 ft. containers were taking up a large area. On a visit to Chile as part of a delegation from the joint committee we saw an out-of-city location for 20 ft. equivalents. Could we take a similar approach here in the event that permission is not given for land reclamation at Clontarf? If we had a dedicated route into the city, these containers would not all have to be stored at Dublin Port and capacity would be freed up.

Mr. Connellan

That option was examined when we considered moving oil tanks out of the port but it was not found to be feasible. The main reason was the long leases on which the land is held but the imbalance in the number of empty and full containers entering and leaving the country should also be noted. Approximately 25% of containers leaving Dublin Port are empty and must, therefore, be stored close to the port. They take up exactly the same amount of space as a full container, which creates a problem.

To take a business approach, given increasing demand in the economy, Dublin Port Company must have a plan B for the eventuality that it does not receive approval to increase capacity. I have no doubt that there is more than one plan. On my trips abroad I have seen ports facing similar capacity problems to Dublin Port use other options. What will happen if the port does not receive permission to develop and capacity reaches 100%?

Mr. Connellan

In that case, we would have to turn customers away, prices would increase and efficiency would decrease for everybody.

I come from a business background. Rather than turn away customers, most business operators will come up with an alternative.

We could divert them to Cork.

Mr. Connellan

Dublin Port Company has had customers with which it could not deal in the past year.

With the opening of Dublin Port tunnel, a facility could be opened elsewhere to store 20 ft. containers. Containers could be moved at night from a location on the M50 through the tunnel and offloaded quickly and efficiently at the port. The use of a large area of Dublin Port to house facilities for washing and storing containers could not provide a profitable return in terms of space.

Mr. Connellan

The Deputy may be correct but the land to which he refers is some distance from the deeper water.

In the worst case scenario should Dublin Port Company not seriously consider this option? If a second site was opened near the entrance to the tunnel, it would have rapid access to the port.

Mr. Connellan

We have examined that possibility.

Is there no merit in it?

Mr. Connellan

The company believes it to be marginal.

When one considers the difficulty associated with the reclamation proposal which has not advanced for 20 years, will Dublin Port not give positive consideration to my suggestion?

Mr. Connellan

I reiterate that the land under consideration is located near deeper water. Even ten years ago nobody envisaged vessels of the size of Ulysses using Dublin Port. The vessel arrives in Dublin Port twice daily with 4 km of trucks on board. No one visualised such a development as recently as ten years ago.

The leases awarded by the State, say, in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s are worth a fortune and were subject to loose legal arrangements. Dublin Port Company is prevented from exercising any right on the land. Did Arthur Cox and Hamilton Osbourne King carry out due diligence on the deal?

Mr. Connellan

Yes, I am satisfied everything Dublin Port Company has done has been above board and within the parameters set out by the State and in legislation. I am also satisfied the deal was the best arrangement possible for the company.

I do not doubt Mr. Connellan's integrity. Would it not have been easier for the company to secure approval if procedures had been more transparent and accountable? Has it discussed the plan and design of the location with the planning authorities? A number of caveats have been inserted before Dublin Port Company even gets out of the starting blocks. They include, for example, a requirement to obtain ministerial consent. In addition, the consortium must be successful in the bid and the proposal must be in compliance with all relevant regulatory and planning obligations. Is Mr. Connellan confident that these will be met?

Mr. Connellan

A large number of safeguards are in place for the company, the State and the land.

As regards the caveat on the success of the consortium, it is the only player.

Mr. Connellan

That is correct.

It must, therefore, be successful. Is that correct?

Mr. Connellan

No, there is an open competition.

There is a competition between the Spencer Dock proposal and the other proposal.

Mr. Connellan indicated the matter is on the Minister's desk. Is that correct?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

I am thoroughly impressed with Dublin Port's cruise liner business and admire the business the company has generated at the port, which makes commercial sense and will benefit tourism and boost economic growth. Despite the capacity constraints which limit the commercial options open to the company, there is merit in having a dedicated terminal for cruise liners. Will Mr. Connellan give a brief synopsis of the potential of the cruise liner business for Dublin?

Mr. Connellan

We estimate the value to the local economy of the cruise liner business, of which 80 visited Dublin this year, at approximately €50 million. This figure is based on a multiplier-type study carried out by University College Dublin. The value of the business to Dublin Port Company is significantly less and would not warrant the building of a dedicated terminal. However, there is scope for a number of entities, for example, the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, DCC, the Government and Dublin Port Company, to put together a package to build a dedicated cruise liner terminal. Moreover, it would not cost the earth.

Is the same measurement used by other ports?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

I alluded to the Government's reaction to the capacity difficulties at Dublin Port and noted that expansion plans had been shelved since 2002. Mr. Connellan appeared to indicate that nothing had happened in this regard. From my visits to Dublin Port, it is clear that in an expanding island economy such as this we depend on good distribution of services. Does Mr. Connellan agree a vision has been lacking? The ports policy was published nearly two years ago, yet no action has been taken on joint ventures. Will any new project take the form of a public private partnership, be purely private or include State involvement? If the company was given the green light to develop tomorrow, what investment is required to realise the plans to meet capacity?

Mr. Connellan

We have the capacity, using own funds and borrowings, to carry out any works we propose to do. We have carried out joint ventures with our customers in the past. As I stated, the project at Greenore Port is a joint venture, although others may not be considered as such in the true sense of the term. We carry out those kinds of joint ventures.

Mr. Connellan will have heard an earlier reference to the concession model or the licensing of an operator like Merck.

Mr. Connellan

Essentially, what we do is give a long lease but then we lose control.

Have long leases caused trouble?

Mr. Connellan

Yes, because one loses control.

Why is it not possible to give a licence for 20 or 25 years?

Mr. Connellan

That is because a judge may decide, under the Landlord and Tenant Act, that regardless of what it is called, it is a lease.

Can Mr. Connellan advise the committee with regard to the anomalies in the landlord and tenant legislation that should be addressed in the coming months? It is critically important that we know exactly what port companies require to initiate a development plan. I have observed Dublin Port in my capacity as a businessman. The level of the growth in the economy is high. I do not doubt Mr. Connellan's integrity regarding the conference centre. If the Minister has the documentation in the Department he should make it available to the committee to ensure transparency and that the due diligence carried out by consultants and solicitors was above reproach. I have no doubt that this will be the case.

Will Mr. Connellan indicate the capacity of Dublin Port? I will come back to Anna Livia issue, which could return to haunt us yet. Mr. Connellan has stated that he expects tonnage to increase by 11 million tonnes by 2013.

Mr. Connellan

We will not increase it if we do not expand.

What is the current capacity in tonnage?

Mr. Connellan

It is about 26 million tonnes.

Mr. Connellan told us in the summer that maximum capacity would be reached in 2007 and that the company would then be in trouble.

Mr. Connellan

That is correct. I am saying that, assuming we get an expansion, we would reach maximum capacity until 2013.

Taking the expansion into consideration, would the current capacity of 26 million tonnes increase by 11 million tonnes by 2013?

Mr. Connellan

Yes, it is predicated on having an expansion.

According to the Minister's report, the deficiency nationwide is 12.2 million tonnes. We know from Mr. Keating's presentation that an audit will take place in 2012.

According to the document it will take place in 2014.

No, 2012.

It was to take place after ten years. Is Mr. Connellan saying, in effect, that if the port can expand, it will take 11 million of the 12.2 million tonnes which it is forecast will be available?

Mr. Connellan

I would take issue with the figures, which I believe are too low.

Mr. Connellan

I would take issue with the consultants' figures. They are too low. They are based on growth——

Did Mr. Connellan have an input into this forecast?

Mr. Connellan

No.

Was Mr. Connellan asked to contribute? Mr. Keating said earlier that the Port of Cork Company made a presentation.

Mr. Connellan

Is that the Baxter Eadie study?

No, it is the Minister's port strategy. Did Mr. Connellan have any input into that?

Mr. Connellan

Yes, I did.

Were questions asked about capacity?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

Are they reflected in this report?

Mr. Connellan

I do not think they are accurately reflected.

Therefore, the audit being carried out at present will reflect the true figures.

Mr. Connellan

We think we are growing faster than outlined in that report.

I understand that the audit being carried out by the Minister will engage with different port authorities throughout the country and Mr. Connellan will give a ten-year forecast based on his own figures and projections.

Mr. Keating mentioned that they had no difficulty with the Landlord and Tenant Act. Are they operating under a different procedure or legislation because Mr. Connellan appeared to have many problems? Mr. Keating referred to the fact that if ports were under the same legislative regime as airport authorities, this would solve some problems. Deputy Perry inquired if we need to enact new legislation that will assist the ports in maintaining their ownership of the different facilities.

Mr. Connellan

I cannot answer for Mr. Keating but I can answer for myself. We have a lot of trouble with our leases, mainly because of the vagaries of the landlord and tenant legislation. It is fine to say that we should do what the airports do but nobody has ever challenged the Aer Rianta Act and until this is done in court, we will not know whether it stands up.

The committee will find out about that. We will ask the official that deals with this area in the legal office of the Department to come before the committee to advise it in terms of the practices in the various ports and whether they are safeguarded. We will obtain that information ourselves.

Did Mr. Connellan make a comment about the amalgamation of ports? Does he have any difficulty with his port being amalgamated with another?

Mr. Connellan

No, I do not.

None whatsoever.

Mr. Connellan

I would have to inquire about the purpose of such an amalgamation. If it is to gain efficiencies, I would be in favour of it.

Would Mr. Connellan have any difficulty in amalgamating in order to gain capacity from a port that is working under capacity at present?

Mr. Connellan

No.

Is the pension fund fully funded?

Mr. Connellan

No. There was no pension fund when we were corporatised in 1996. At that time, the fund contained £3.5 million. It now contains €120 million. It is 68% funded.

Is the proposed sale of 32 acres to the national conference centre anything to do with the pension fund? How does Mr. Connellan propose to enhance the pension fund?

Mr. Connellan

No. Regardless of that, the pension fund will be funded by 2008. That is what we have been challenged to do.

Will it be fully funded in 2008 from within the port authority's own resources?

Mr. Connellan

From our own resources.

Is the company preparing for privatisation?

Mr. Connellan

No.

I wish to conclude by asking about Anna Livia. Can Mr. Connellan indicate who were the members of the Anna Livia consortium? If Mr. Connellan does not have all the names——

Mr. Connellan

Bennett, Gallaghers, which is Earlsford, and Kilsaran.

Who is Bennett?

Mr. Connellan

They are developers. Bennett Construction.

Forgive me for not knowing. I am only a poor Corkman.

Mr. Connellan

Bennett Construction, Kilsaran Concrete and Earlsford.

Does anyone on the board of the port have a connection to those companies?

Mr. Connellan

No, not to my knowledge.

Who brought the project to the board in the first instance? How did it come to the board's attention?

Mr. Connellan

It came to management in the normal way. I examined it and brought it to the attention of the chairman and it was brought to the board in the usual way.

Therefore, the consortium contacted Mr. Connellan.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

I have a few more questions in regard to that.

Mr. Connellan

Just to clarify, a representative from the consortium came to see me. A large group of people did not come.

It would be helpful to the committee if Mr. Connellan would formally send in those names to the committee.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

The contractual and commercial arrangements were obviously confidential at that stage.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

We do not wish to do anything that would affect the matter. However, it would be helpful to the committee because a number of allegations were made by Deputies and we have a duty to investigate this matter. I suggest that the committee would consider the matter in private session. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, who has responsibility for this area should come before the committee. We will ask him to make all the documentation available, although we do not know whether he is in a position to do so.

Is it the case that the Minister first heard of this from the media?

We will put that question to the Minister of State.

Mr. Connellan

I was asked a question a couple of times but did not get an opportunity to answer. The first time we informed the Department was in July 2004. We did so via the chairman's section 28 report, which is a six-monthly report. It is not my responsibility to inform the Minister. The second time we informed the Department was on 24 February 2005. The third occasion was on 31 March 2005, again through the chairman's report.

Will Mr. Connellan be helpful to the committee by providing a document with that information and a reference to the official in the Department with whom he dealt?

The record of the Dáil states:

On 22 March 2005, the Department received a press query by e-mail regarding the use of land in the ownership of Dublin Port Company in connection with a proposal for the national conference centre. On 23 March, the Department requested Dublin Port Company to provide it with relevant information regarding the proposal. On 1 April, Dublin Port Company replied to the Department stating that it was facilitating a consortium in a tendering process for the national conference centre.

This was the response of the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. Connellan

I am sure that is all correct but——

Does this concern the Irish Glass Bottle Company?

It concerns Anna Livia.

Mr. Connellan

I am sure that is all correct but I am saying that the chairman's section 28 report refers to "any significant things that have gone on or are going on".

The inference from the response given to Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is clearly that the Department heard about this for the first time on 22 March 2005.

Mr. Connellan

It is, but that is clearly not the case.

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe was, therefore, misled in Dáil Éireann by the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. Connellan

I cannot say that. All I can say is that the Department was informed for the first time in July 2004 via the chairman's report. The second time it was informed was at a meeting in the Department on 24 February 2005, which I attended. The third time it was informed was on 31 March 2005, again via the chairman's report.

When was this?

This is a serious matter because the Dáil record does not seem to reflect what the chief executive is telling us.

I suggest that the chief executive outline the sequence of events in writing. We will give the Minister due notice of all the questions arising and we will ask him to clarify the matter when he appears before us. It is important that his attention be drawn to the transcripts of this meeting. Perhaps representatives of the Department of Finance should also come before the committee in respect of corporate governance. This is a matter for the committee to consider in private session.

If this project were abandoned, what would occur? How important is it to the finances of the port? Mr. Connellan indicated that the land had no other use, either for shipping or unloading purposes. Is it too far up the quays?

In addendum, would Dublin Port Company do exactly the same again and leave itself open to the charge of sweetheart deals and deals having been made in tents at the Galway races? Alternatively, would it put the project out to competitive tender?

Mr. Connellan

I will deal with the Chairman's question first and then reply to that of Deputy Broughan. The abandonment of the project would not make any difference to us. We propose to use the land for port use and other uses, such as the conference centre. We propose to make dual use of it. I believe I had made that quite clear.

Mr. Connellan spoke of using the underground——

Mr. Connellan

It is not an underground project, it is all over-ground.

Is it on stilts?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

Is the area beneath used as a holding bay for trucks?

Mr. Connellan

Yes. That is what it is being used for at present.

Therefore, the development is on stilts and the area underneath will continue to be used for its current purpose.

Mr. Connellan

Correct. Perhaps we could do that some other way.

Would there be a lease or would Dublin Port Company be selling the freehold?

Mr. Connellan

I would prefer not to comment on the commercial details.

It is not a commercial issue, it is only a question. If the company is retaining the surface, or underground surface, for parking trucks——

Mr. Connellan

We would not lease that to anybody.

What would the company lease?

Mr. Connellan

It would probably lease the air access rights.

It would be a long-term lease, as applies in respect of an apartment block. If one were buying apartment 2A on the first floor, it would be——

Mr. Connellan

The company might own it.

Or the purchaser would own it.

Mr. Connellan

Correct.

The purchaser would have a 900-year lease.

Mr. Connellan

There might be no purchaser.

That is how it is done in a shared commercial property. I have a little experience of this. If the project were abandoned, would there still be a use for the 32 acres?

Mr. Connellan

The entire site amounts to 27 acres.

The company will continue to have a use therefor. Is Mr. Connellan saying that more value will be obtained if the existing use is retained and another project is developed on top?

Mr. Connellan

Yes. If it were not this project, it might be another.

If the Attorney General informs the Government that the law and code of practice have been broken and that the deal is scrapped——

Mr. Connellan

Would I repeat it? I would not.

However, is Mr. Connellan saying the business would be conducted in accordance with the code of governance on the next occasion if the company decides to develop the land? That is the key point.

Mr. Connellan

That is a hypothetical question but I will try to answer it. If the Attorney General determined that we had in some way breached some code of practice, of course I would not adopt the same approach again. I believe we did not breach such a code.

On foot of the advices Mr. Connellan took?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

I certainly do not want to create the impression that we are questioning Mr. Connellan's integrity. We are actually looking for answers. A number of allegations were made in the questions framed, to which we wanted answers.

Mr. Connellan

I understand that.

However, Mr. Connellan was slow in answering. We have had time to reflect and I hope we can get the answers we want, although we may not receive them all today.

Given that there are so many questions unanswered, the next step is to ask the Minister and representatives from the Department of Finance to come before the committee. As a last resort, we will examine the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997. It is quite possible that the committee will, if necessary, apply to the compellability sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to begin the procedure pertaining to this matter. I hope it will not be necessary and that we will receive all the answers.

I am sorry that I missed some of the meeting. I am one of the Whips and, therefore, had to attend for the vote in the Dáil. I am still not clear about the position on the Bremore development. Like other Deputies with the same portfolio, I met the chief executive, the harbour master and other officials from Drogheda Port and considered the Bremore development. The OECD report gave a very depressing account of the development of our ports in the lifetime of this Government and of the support Dublin Port received. Let us consider what will happen if the Bremore development proceeds. I have maps of Dublin Port in front of me, including a mock-up of the wonderful facility north of Balbriggan. I was told that it is expected to be a first-class passenger port as well as a freight port. It will be just at the edge of the M50. The Taoiseach is talking about an outer ring road, which I believe the county council — although it informed no one that it was doing so — is building. It has completed part of the it and, in its wisdom, is proceeding with the project. The port will be located directly between the two major ring roads around our city, the population of which is approaching 2 million. What are the implications of this, irrespective of the reclamation issue?

It has been alleged that the Dublin Port Company did not use the land intensively enough for port-related activities. I do not represent Clontarf directly — some believe I do — and have never represented it. However, as northsiders generally stick together, I would obviously make the case for Clontarf. To a lay person, the proposed development seems to be very viable and attractive.

The Chairman and his team visited in Buenos Aires and noted that the city port had an outlying port which was not in the centre of city but which dealt with much of the expanded business. In the massive expansion we need to develop our island economy is there not a place for Bremore and Dublin Port in which our downstream and city ports can play a positive role?

We are tired talking to people who forget this is an island, although the chief executive of the Dublin Port does not. On our visits to the bay he has reminded us that our geography makes us dependent for our survival on Dublin Port, the other nine ports and 13 harbours. Is he lukewarm about Bremore or shooting it down or does he take the view that Drogheda can go ahead and do as it wishes and complement the role of Dublin Port, in this expansion?

Where does the national spatial strategy fit in to the development proposals? Should Government not also be conscious of this?

Mr. Connellan

I will answer the questions in reverse order. The national spatial strategy identifies improvements as being for the economy as a whole, which I support. Our proposals are compatible with that. I wish Bremore the best of luck. Maybe we should be doing that but it is not the job of Dublin Port to move the port. That is for the legislators. If they wish to move Dublin Port to another location——

There will always be a Dublin Port, it is an important port.

Mr. Connellan

I understand that but if it is decided that our extra capacity for Dublin will be provided elsewhere I will not fight that. That is not my job.

Does Mr. Connellan have no problem with freight being shifted to Drogheda or somewhere else?

Mr. Connellan

I have no difficulty with the legislators whose job it is to make those decisions. Legislation has made me responsible for providing facilities in Dublin Port for our customers and economy. I cannot do that unless I am given the capacity to do so.

If the people of Dublin oppose the plan for the 25 hectares what is Mr. Connellan's plan B?

Mr. Connellan

I do not have a plan B. We are trying to sweat the assets and will continue to do so although we cannot sweat them for much longer. We have invested in a port north of Dublin called Greenore. The names, Bremore and Greenore sound similar. The Bremore proposal seems to be predicated on the idea that all the customers would leave Dublin and move to Bremore and no other port would act. That seems to fly in the face of logic.

I am Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government. I also represent Dublin North Central, particularly the Clontarf area, and I oppose the application made on 7 March 2002 to infill 52 acres of Dublin Bay, made under the Foreshore Act 1933.

Has the ownership of the foreshore been established? In his replies to parliamentary questions about this the Minister is not able to give a definitive answer. He says there are consultations between Dublin Port's legal advisers and the Department on this issue.

It seems that consultants employed by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources have found Dublin Port's environmental impact survey inadequate. Does Mr. Connellan have any further information in that regard? Why has Dublin Port not submitted a planning application to Dublin City Council? The Minister said he will not deal with this application under the Foreshore Act until the council grants planning permission.

Mr. Connellan

The ownership issue was held up for almost two years but I believe it has been solved. We have signed the statutory declaration, the process by which ownership is established. I believe we will be established as owners of the foreshore.

I have no indication about the environmental impact survey. The allegation was made at a meeting of the committee chaired by Deputy Haughey. We did not make a planning application because the city council said it would not deal with one until we had the Minister's consent under the Foreshore Act.

It is a catch-22.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

It is an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

That is a reference to the Deputy's father.

It is an historical term.

Before we finish I want to be clear on Mr. Connellan's point that he is satisfied that, on the legal and other professional advice to him, his management team and board acted in good faith on the Anna Livia project.

Mr. Connellan

Absolutely.

Mr. Connellan is aware, as members pointed out, that the Minister has referred some aspects of the project — I am not sure of the details — to the Attorney General for advice.

Mr. Connellan

I am aware of that.

I regret to say we should communicate with the Comptroller and Auditor General.

In the Deputy's absence today — I do not know how he covers the many portfolios he holds — we agreed that the committee will decide in private session before its next meeting what should be the next step on this matter. I expect we will invite the Minister to appear with the officials who dealt with this proposal. I expect the Department of Finance will be asked to appear in regard to corporate governance. We can decide whether anybody else needs to appear. I will ask the clerk to establish who can and cannot appear before the committee.

If Mr. Connellan received advice from property advisers that it was in the public interest to pursue such a land deal with only one bidder, perhaps he could forward that to the committee for us to take into consideration.

Given that it is a commercial consideration the next step for us is to deal with the Minister.

We could discuss it in a private meeting.

The meeting with the Minister would be public.

Our consideration of it would be conducted in private.

May I leave it for the clerk to advise us on the proper procedure? It is the first time this committee has had to deal with such a situation. There are so many unanswered questions around this project it would be wrong of the committee not to follow it through to the bitter end and give Mr. Connellan a chance to vindicate himself and Dublin Port.

A hearing with the Minister and the civil servants who advised him on this is a good idea. In the context of that consultation it would be helpful if Mr. Connellan has any documents that he can give us to broaden the scope of our discussion. When all that is done no doubt a different picture will emerge.

Allegations were made here today with which we must deal. I have made it clear that this committee has not formed any view. In the interests of fair play we must find out exactly what happened in this procedure. Mr. Connellan was not forthcoming today because, as he indicated, there is much sensitive commercial information he could not give the committee. If Mr. Connellan is prepared to brief the committee in a private capacity, then the committee could take the next step. However, I cannot guarantee that any matter on which the committee is briefed would remain private.

Mr. Connellan

I understand that, Chairman. I would like the committee to understand that competition is ongoing and no decision has been made on it. I do not want to say anything that could jeopardise this.

I accept there is competition between CIE and Spencer Dock. We are only concerned about Dublin Port, a semi-State company. We are concerned that Mr. Connellan has followed proper procedures in the way he has acted.

Mr. Connellan

I understand that. All the documentation we have on this issue is with the Minister.

Is it possible for the committee to have a copy of this material to consider in private session?

Mr. Connellan

I do not think so.

The Deputy should not worry as we will get it. Mr. Connellan might have time to reflect on this tonight. Our next step will be with the Minister, his officials and the Department of Finance. If Mr. Connellan could be helpful in sending on the information he indicated he would send, it would be helpful.

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

The committee is known for getting to the bottom of matters and following through on its work commitment. This committee is committed to satisfying the Oireachtas and the public that all matters in this project were above board. We do not doubt what Mr. Connellan has said today.

Mr. Connellan

It would be a great ease to me if those allegations were not cast in my way.

That is regrettable but the members have serious concerns. That is why I want to get to the bottom of it.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.40 p.m. sine die.

Barr
Roinn