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JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Oct 2006

Post Office Network: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. John Kane, general secretary of the Irish Postmasters Union. Before I ask Mr. Kane to begin, I advise members that we will hear a short presentation followed by a question and answer session. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. The committee cannot guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it. Furthermore, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank Mr. Kane for sending us his submission and other supporting documentation in advance of the meeting. As he will appreciate, the Order of Business will start at 4.30 p.m. and Deputies are anxious to attend. We have read Mr. Kane's presentation and I ask him to summarise it so members of the committee may ask questions.

Mr. John Kane

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for inviting me here. I am joined by my colleagues, the vice president of the Irish Postmasters Union, Mr. Padraig McNamara, from Granard post office, and Mr. Sean Martin, from Tramore post office. Unfortunately, our president, Mr. Joe McArdle, from Dunleer post office, is undergoing treatment for a serious health problem and is therefore unable to attend.

I ask Mr. Kane to send him our regards.

Mr. Kane

I am sure he will be delighted to receive them.

The substance of our problem is that the post office network has continued to decline for the past number of years. In the past five years alone, 400 offices have gone out of business. If corrective action is not taken urgently, many more will close, resulting in the loss to our members' of their livelihoods and the destruction of a valuable social service which, once gone, will never be recovered.

The biggest problem faced by postmasters is income. Our members struggle to provide a service in an environment of ever-increasing costs and estimate they are being short-changed by as much as €20 million. They are currently paid in the region of €55 million by An Post but the cost base of their operations is closer to €80 million. Our members are opting out on a daily basis because they cannot survive on what they earn. The situation is compounded by the threats that have arisen to a significant portion of our business. We are absolutely dependent on services contracted from Government agencies and Departments, such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the National Treasury Management Agency, which represent about 75% of our total turnover. If we are unable to administer these services at the right price, we will have a serious problem.

Eighteen months ago, we commissioned Farrell Grant Sparks to compile a report on what is happening in Ireland compared with the rest of Europe. The report indicated that unless serious action was taken, we are likely to lose the post office network. If we follow the European model, we will have to face some pain with regard to the size and distribution of the network but, while we would prefer not to lose any members or post offices, we are practical enough to realise that if a case is made for a smaller network, we will have to live with it, provided that the people who leave the business are properly compensated by severance packages and that those who remain are guaranteed a level of security and income.

I welcome Mr. Kane and Mr. McArdle to the joint committee. Have they met with the new chief executive of An Post, Mr. Connell?

Mr. Kane

We met him a week ago for an introductory meeting. We have not done any business with him as of yet. He is a very pleasant gentleman.

An agreement was finally signed with Fortis, the Belgian bank. Did Mr. Connell give any information on this? Has there been any consultation on the roll-out of services to make the post office network a significant financial provider?

Mr. Kane

We made a quick visit to Belgium to see the operation in Belgian post offices as it has a similar sized network. It is very impressive and we hope it will be as successful here. Even if it is as successful as An Post predicts, it will not have a beneficial impact on approximately 300 post offices. That was the similar experience in Belgium. The smaller post offices will be doing a small amount of business for Fortis, so income wise it will have very little beneficial impact on them. I hope it will benefit the 300 or so post offices in larger urban conurbations.

Will the range of financial products Mr. Connell spoke about at the signing of the agreement be available right across the State, from west Cork to north Donegal?

Mr. Kane

The indications are that it will be available at all 1,300 post offices. It will be accessible for all citizens at any post office, whether manual or computerised. There are limitations under IFSRA rules as to what our members can do in selling these financial products. They will be able to introduce the products to the customers and call up expertise from a centre if an individual wants to go into the detail of a product.

Will the 400 post offices that we constantly get complaints about be computerised as a result of the deal? Will there be significant training and upskilling of postmasters and their staff?

Mr. Kane

We are not sure. We envisage much upskilling and training will have to be done for both staff and sub-contractors. We envisage some upgrading of post office facilities and services.

Yet there has been no detailed consultation on this.

Mr. Kane

We have had none.

Although the Dublin North-East constituency is an urban one, it had a major post office closure. Along with the local business interests, I met An Post's chief of operations. It seemed to me that An Post has no criteria for the restructuring of outlets or for their expansion. On the northern fringes of Dublin, a new city is being built. The Irish Postmasters Union submission gets to the nub of the issue. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has no policy for An Post. He, along with the outgoing Government, has watched the network fritter away. It is now standing at two closures every ten days. Famous locations are losing their post offices. Does the Irish Postmasters Union agree there is no Government policy on the development and sustenance of the post office network?

Mr. Kane

We have continually used the term "sustainable network". However, sustainable by whose criteria — the Government, An Post or the Irish Postmasters Union? It is not sustainable from the postmasters' perspective. They cannot continue to subsidise the network as they have been doing for years. They have got to the stage where most postmasters are looking to get out. We have raised this with An Post and the Minister. In fairness to the Minister, he has been supportive and has shown much good will to the postmasters on the issue. That good will, however, has not yet translated into euro which is the all-important part.

We have asked whether a post office network is needed. If the Government does not want a network, at least tell us and we will go away. We have no hang-up with closing the whole network. However, it is believed a smaller post office network is needed. We are practical and realise that to have a smaller network there will be consequences. We will live with the consequences provided the process is managed properly, effectively and sensitively, having regard for our members' interests and the interests of communities that will be affected.

In most European countries, it has been agreed that every citizen will have the right to access a post office within a certain radius of home or every area with a certain population figure will be guaranteed a certain number of post offices. We do not have this agreement. In the past five years, 400 offices have been closed on a haphazard basis. Parts of the State have been denuded of post offices, particularly on the western seaboard from Donegal to west Cork. There has been no regard for the inconvenience and the upset caused to local communities. It must be done on a structured basis to ensure an alternative post office is in a strategic place where people can access services.

I thank the delegation for attending the joint committee. The time has come for a strategic policy decision to be made on the extent of the post office network to be retained. We put down parliamentary questions on individual post offices due for closure but the Ceann Comhairle rules them out of order. One can table a general question about the post office network, but not about an individual post office.

Has the Irish Postmasters Union had any discussions with the Minister on identifying a policy on the post office network? Such discussions would highlight the importance, particularly in rural areas, of the need to have a post office within a reasonable distance of people. The population is almost double that of the 1950s. As a result, there will always be people in circumstances that will not allow them to travel 20 miles to the nearest town. It would be foolhardy if we were to lose the network.

Has the Irish Postmasters Union received communication from the Minister on the Fortis agreement and its impact on its members? How will the services be utilised strategically across the country, not just in a haphazard way, to benefit communities?

The Government can direct a substantial amount of Department of Social and Family Affairs payments through the post office system. It is regrettable that the volume of such work from the Department is diminishing. There seems to be a preference to divert that business towards the banks. I am askance at that as the banking institutions are not exactly losing money. They have lucrative resources compared with the meagre resources of the post office system. The banks are unlikely to need such resources as they have healthy profit margins. Has the union ascertained from the Minister, who ultimately is the director of policy in this area, if there will be a distinct policy decision to ensure no further diminution of the volume of Department of Social and Family Affairs services through An Post?

A situation is emerging in the Houses of the Oireachtas where Members have little influence on policy and where questions cannot be raised on individual policy situations. In other areas of communications, it is a matter for the regulator. The jam in this sandwich is the consumers and An Post which delivers the service. Has the Irish Postmasters Union received any indication of an emerging policy in this area whereby the Minister will take full responsibility to ensure that no other agency has ultimate policy control other than the Department?

Mr. Kane

The Minister and An Post have both been positive about their expectations from Fortis. We share their optimism and are confident the facilities Fortis promises to introduce will be of major benefit to the post offices concerned. I presume everything will be done right in terms of price and so on when the products are pitched to the markets. We expect it to be a positive development.

However, we do not believe it to be the panacea that has been suggested in some quarters; it will not be the saviour of the post office network — far from it. The Farrell Grant Sparks report clearly demonstrates that post offices throughout Europe, all of which have had banking arms at different stages, have not been saved or secured by their banking arm alone. The same will probably hold true here. We very much welcome the venture with Fortis and the banking opportunities it brings. It is a positive development for us, but it will not solve our fundamental problems.

In view of the recent decision of the Advocate General at the European Court of Justice, how An Post handles the putting out to tender of the social welfare contract will have a significant impact on how we go forward. It is regrettable that social welfare business is declining in post offices because they are the only place where recipients can access their benefits at no cost. People under 65 years of age who access them through the banks invariably pay 25 cent or 30 cent per transaction. Furthermore, they may not be able to access all their money because they can only withdraw even amounts of €100 or €140, for example, from the ATM — the odd money will be unavailable until it builds up to an even €20.

We have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Brennan, about the electronic fund transfer, EFT, facility and he was quite sympathetic to our concerns. I understand, however, that the Department of Social and Family Affairs is persisting in the view that all new applicants for social welfare can only access their benefits through a bank's EFT facility. They are told they will not otherwise be given a claim book or vouchers. A small number of applicants have persisted in their application to access their benefits through the post office and have been successful. In general, however, post offices have been cut out of the frame because they do not provide an EFT facility.

Will this change given that post offices will now be able to transact such business as a consequence of An Post's deal with Fortis?

Mr. Kane

We will be able to provide this facility in the 900 automated offices but not in the non-automated offices. That is part of our problem.

How we handle the tendering process for the social welfare contract is key to the future of the post office network. It is a valuable contract, worth €50 million a year, and the Department is a valued customer. Unfortunately, however, our members receive only €18 million of that €50 million and we have some qualms about why we get such a small proportion of the total contract price given that we do 74% of the work. We have not succeeded in getting any satisfactory answers on this point. We are being short-changed in terms of the proportion of the work we do as against the proportion of the fees we receive. This applies to all fees, not just those relating to the social welfare contract.

I will call on Deputy Kelly and Senator Kenneally to finish. We will include in our report Mr. Kane's transcript and the observations he has made, along with members' questions to the chief executive officer of the company and to the Minister. Mr. Kane said he recently had a cordial meeting with the latter.

Mr. Kane

Yes.

We will ask the CEO to engage immediately with the Irish Postmasters Union on the matters Mr. Kane wishes to raise. That is as much as the committee will do at this stage because time is running short for us. The clock is ticking and we have much to do in the coming months. None of the members will be anxious to be involved in committee meetings after 1 January.

I welcome the representatives of the Irish Postmasters Union, including Mr. Kane, the general secretary, and, in particular, Mr.Padraig McNamara from Granard, CountyLongford, Mr. Alan Sloane and Ms Kathleen Diamond.

Are negotiations ongoing with An Post to seek some solution to the delegates' problems? I hope that is the case because the only prospect of a bright future for the post office network is for everybody to work together. The management of An Post and members of the Irish Postmasters Union, who are all reasonable and sensible people, must devise an agreed solution.

What do the delegates envisage will be the cost involved in terms of the severance packages for those who wish to opt out and in regard to the enhanced remuneration? Will it be a one-off cost or is it predicted to be an ongoing one?

Members of the Irish Postmasters Union have operated out of different premises. Are those premises owned by An Post or by the individual postmasters?

Does the Irish Postmasters Union have a person charged with touting for new business, promoting existing business and making everyone aware of the great services available from the post office?

I hope the Chairman will forgive me if I finish not with a question but an observation. The post office in Longford town, for example, appears to any observer to be well run by courteous and pleasant staff who provide an efficient service. Regardless of what might be said about An Post, I am confident that if I post a letter by 5 p.m. this evening to my address in Longford, it will be there in the morning. The company provides a good service.

Mr. Kane may respond to Deputy Kelly's question in conjunction with those of Senator Kenneally.

I too welcome the delegation. Deputy Kelly has been parochial and I will be the same by particularly welcoming Mr. Seán Martin from Tramore in County Waterford.

Many of my questions have already been asked. Mr. Kane seems somewhat pessimistic in regard to An Post's venture with Fortis given that the new services will reach only 150 to 300 post offices. I have spoken to Mr. Kane on several occasions and have always expressed the view that An Post should move in the direction of becoming the small man's bank. The other institutions have moved away from providing that type of service and that presents a great opportunity for the post offices.

Given that 900 of the post offices are automated, I would have thought it possible to roll out Fortis to a greater number of offices than Mr. Kane has suggested. I realise these changes will involve a deal of upskilling and that some post offices, particularly in smaller, rural localities will not be in a position to sell financial products. Perhaps a system could be put in place whereby a person specifically trained in the financial services on offer could spend a half day per week in ten different post offices. I am not sure if this is a practical solution or even something that could be done in future. Is there any prospect that the approximately 400 post offices that are not automated will become so?

I was not aware of the issues regarding the severance package. To my recollection, this was not mentioned at previous meetings of the committee. Have any talks taken place in this regard or is it something that is at an embryonic stage? Does the Irish Postmasters Union have any ideas on other types of products that could be provided by post offices? Is there anything else that can be done to make the smaller offices, in particular, viable?

Mr. Kane

On the costs associated with the severance package, the figures produced by An Post indicate that if 600 offices were to be let go — I stress that the company gave no indication that this was its intention — this would involve a once-off cost of €22 million.

The premises operated by our members are mostly owned by the postmasters or rented from their owners. An Post makes no contribution towards the cost of these premises per se. The cost of the premises, however, whether owned or leased, is built into the overall remuneration per transaction.

Our members engaged in an effort to promote business some 12 or 18 months ago. We met several prospective clients who we believed might be interested in doing their business through the post office network. We then engaged with members of management and asked whether, if we could get several blocks of business at a price that would be beneficial to us, they would allows us to access the network. The answer was an unequivocal "No". It was their prerogative alone to generate business and to determine what business was done by An Post. It was their ball and they alone would play with it. They made this absolutely clear. We envisage the serious selling of insurance and banking products to be confined to a major issue in 250 to 300 offices. All 900 automated offices will have the ability to provide an automatic bank account, including deposits and withdrawals. The other 400 manual offices will be able to introduce customers to the range of products available and refer them to someone centrally who will process the application for health or travel insurance or a mortgage. Someone qualified will then talk directly to the customer. The postmaster or postmistress, even in a small office, will receive a commission as if he or she has done the selling directly.

A severance package has been in place for three and a half or four years, although it officially terminated in July 2004. We believe it has exhausted itself, as very few are indicating any desire to participate in it. It is not all that attractive. The most unattractive part is that salaries are so low. We have 35 people being paid the princely sum of €8,200 a year for providing a premises and a person behind the counter full time and carrying all the other costs of running a business. How can anyone expect someone to provide a premises and run a business on €8,200? There are 35 offices doing so. Probably more than half the offices receive less than €23,000.

That is the essence of our problem. An Post has enjoyed our services for so little and for so long that it will not come around to the view that reality must be faced and that the cost base on which we operate is far higher than the money it pays us. During the Ryan report we tried to get it to conduct a review of the cost base with us using outside professionals to ensure we would all have figures from which to work. It stated it was not interested in the cost base, since, as far as it was concerned, if John Kane left his post office the next morning, it could get three others to take it on for the same benefits paid to him. It was that cynical.

How enabled are the post offices in Mr. Kane's union regarding broadband? The Fortis banking venture will be coming on stream. Is every post office now broadband-enabled to ensure they can backhaul and download files?

Mr. Kane

I do not think so. Some 900 or 1,000 offices are computerised, with an integrated system throughout the country. The other 400 offices are purely paper-based and must file documents every evening regarding all transactions. There is no broadband in any office to my knowledge.

Who would have the answer to that?

Mr. Pádraig McNamara

They are currently all using an ISDN line.

But not broadband. It would be difficult to download substantial files.

I thank Mr. Kane for appearing before the committee and apologise for rushing him. Normally we would allow a delegate much longer, but we are constrained because members have imposed a time limit on today's meeting. I have asked the clerk to send the transcripts, including the presentation, to An Post and request its new managing director or CEO to respond and engage with the Irish Postmasters Union.

Sitting suspended at 3.44 p.m and resumed at 3.47 p.m.
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