Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, NATURAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 May 2012

Reform of Common Agricultural Policy: Discussion (Resumed)

We will hear first from the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA. I welcome Mr. John Comer, president, Mr. Pat McCormack, deputy president, and Ms Mary Buckley, policy officer, and thank them for coming before the committee. I believe this is the first time this committee has had the current personnel from the ICMSA before us and I welcome the members and wish them well in their new roles.

As the witnesses are probably aware, this committee has been holding a series of meetings with main stakeholders, which will provide the committee with an opportunity to tease out the various current positions and concerns of all involved, specifically with regard to five draft legislative proposals currently under scrutiny, namely, COM 625 to 629, inclusive, as well as any wider CAP reform-related issues. Following the completion of the stakeholder meetings, we will forward a short political contribution to the European Parliament at the end of this month. We hope this will ensure that any views the joint committee may have on the EU draft legislative proposals can be considered by the relevant EU rapporteurs and shadow rapporteurs in advance of their deadline to produce draft reports by mid-June. I understand some meetings have been planned for Copenhagen and Brussels in the coming weeks on CAP reform. We will include copies of all presentations as an appendix with the political contribution.

Before we commence, I remind witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise nor make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I see the Macra representatives here and advise them that the ruling on privilege applies to them also. I hope they were listening.

Mr. John Comer

I thank the committee for the opportunity to put our views forward. As the chairman rightly said, we have taken up our new positions in ICMSA relatively recently so it is a learning curve and I ask members to bear with us while we find our feet on this ground. We took over from Mr. Jackie Cahill, who is a very competent and capable person and represented ICMSA for the past six years. He was before the committee on many occasions to put the case forward.

It is not an understatement to say the two most important issues that will affect the next generation of farmers are CAP reform and milk production post-2015. Today, we are here to deal with CAP reform and to get our views on record as to the most important issues for our sector and society. There are three main headings we would like to address: first, the base year of 2014, second, flattening, and, third, greening. I would also add a fourth heading, that of budgets, as it goes without saying that the most important point for farmers and for Ireland as a nation is to secure the maximum budget possible, both in terms of the single farm payment and the rural development budget, which we would like to discuss at the end of our submission.

As members know, the multi-annual financial framework will be negotiated, hopefully, by the back end of this year and it will then be easier to know exactly where we are going in regard to deciding what has to be prioritised. If we are to achieve the ambitions set out by 2020 and capitalise on the potential for us as an exporting nation, we need to get this right, and it is only proper we spend time getting the basis of CAP reform right.

I have submitted a document to the committee and will address some of the issues within it. CAP has, since its inception, provided many benefits for European consumers such as safety, security and stability of food supplies which are produced in a way that ensures the sustainable use of land. However, given the projections for world population growth and the associated food security issues, ICMSA believes that a strong CAP, with an adequate budget, is now more critical than ever to ensure a dynamic and competitive agri-sector and the attainment of the EU 2020 strategy.

On the question of funding the CAP, the key issue is how much money will be available up to 2020. The negotiations on the overall EU budget from 2014-20 are not yet concluded but that budget may come under further pressure due to these negotiations, with possible consequences for the CAP budget. It is our view that a strong CAP will make a positive contribution to job creation as there will be up to 300,000 jobs in that sector.

Once the CAP budget is decided and secured, the next issue will be how to distribute CAP funds among member states and, ultimately, how the single farm payment will be distributed internally. As already stated, we believe that, at a minimum, Ireland must retain its existing funding from CAP. Current Commission proposals regarding the distribution of payments to farmers within member states and proposals for a gradual move away from the historic-based payments to a system of flat rate, uniform per hectare payments by 2019 are unacceptable. The ICMSA is convinced that any shift to a flat rate payment will be detrimental to active farmers on the ground and we believe there is no compromise to that position. If the payment is moved to a per hectare basis, all the power is given to the landowner, not to the farmer producing the food. We see a massive downside to that.

This is also tied in with the 2014 date, which is already creating massive problems for farmers on the ground, in particular those in the dairy sector. Up to 30% of dairy produce is coming from rented land, which must stand on its own economically. Where a farmer does not own the land and has to rent it, it is the person who owns the land and gets all the payments based on a future date of 2014 who holds all the cards. The ICMSA believes the base year must be on an historic basis and cannot be on a futuristic basis, which is creating havoc for the market. We referred to the budget timeframe and the way the budget will be disseminated at the end of this year and early next year. However, it could potentially be two years hence and we could have this date hanging out there on the market.

The ICMSA made inquiries on the legal side and found that, under Irish land law, no person who breaks a lease should be able to benefit in the future from a single farm payment. Perhaps the Government would have the responsibility to get this written into the European legislation. Ireland is unique among member states in regard to the rental sector because leases in mainland Europe run for 20 to 25 years whereas they run for a shorter term here. This futuristic date is playing havoc. While I believe the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine understands this, I want the committee to clearly understand it as well.

With regard to the 30% figure mooted in regard to greening, the ICMSA firmly believes there is already enough cross-compliance in existence to convince the citizens of Europe they are getting value for money. As a farm organisation, we understand the practicalities in that this is European taxpayers' money. However, the marketplace will never compensate for the environment aspect, so funding must come from somewhere. The reality should be explained to the citizens of Europe: the CAP is not just a farmers' subsidy because it is equally a support for consumers and works to maintain a healthy, sustainable environment whereby we can produce food and have the capacity to hand on our farms and our planet to the next generation.

The question is how to do this. We believe that under the cross-compliance heading and the good agricultural and environmental practices heading in Pillar 1, there is enough to justify to European citizens that we should be entitled to the single farm payment and that it would be prudently spent. If there are to be extra environmental requirements, we firmly believe this will have to go under Pillar 2, which I will address later. We understand that the citizens of Europe and the Directorate-General for Agriculture and Rural Development are pushing hard in order that Pillar 1 would contain a greening element. However, that greening element will just be a formula of words that satisfies the Commission and Council. Therefore, we can be creative in coming up with a justification, which I believe exists.

With regard to flattening, we wrote to the Minister to clarify whether he was suggesting a "gradual move towards" the average. We would accept that formula of words because if there is a move to a flat rate, per hectare basis of €270 per hectare by 2019, there will be a complete sea change from the way agriculture exists today, which would be of complete disadvantage to the active farmer and would skew the reality of the active farmer being supported for production. If there is a €270 per hectare payment regardless of whether one is farming the land, it is obvious what will happen. We would be happy with the form of words "gradual move towards" because the Commissioner appears hell bent on having an average across Europe.

We also strongly support the approximation position. In fact, much of the thought and words behind approximation were actively promoted from day one by ICMSA, and we believe it should operate along the lines of the model used by the EU 27 for their own budgets, whereby there is a minimum and a maximum. The Minister, the analysts and those involved in formulating the policies are talking about 10% to 15%, but the critical question for ICMSA is "10% to 15% of what?" We say it should be 10% of the existing moneys because if one excludes the greening element of 30%, there is potential in the LFAs - less favoured areas - for 5% to 10% recoupling. There is no entitlement on approximately 500,000 ha in this country. That could take 10% from the overall budget. If these parts are excluded it would be meaningless.

We recognise that the Department is running a number of models and it is in nobody's interest to see a massive shift in monetary terms from one farmer to another. It is generally acknowledged that, other than a few anomalies, the active farmers are benefiting from the current structure. As a country we have to look after our active farmers as best we can.

We are adamant that Pillar 2 has to be secured or enhanced but not at the cost of Pillar 1. Even if we secure an amount equal to our current budget in nominal terms, the impact of inflation means that its monetary value will be significantly less by the end of 2020. Co-funding should be in place for early retirement and installation, and a particular emphasis should be put on a new REPS. It is generally accepted across Europe that the scheme is good for the participants, the environment and the sustainability of agriculture.

Market supports will be critical because, as everyone knows from milk prices and the headline in today's Irish Independent, there is potential for catastrophe in Europe. The Commission established a high level group in 2009 but the proposals it came up with after deliberating for many months were pretty much useless. They contained nothing that would put a floor under milk prices for producers. Volatility is catching the perceived good guys and the larger operators. If 2009 brought a message home, it was that bigger, younger and more intensively developing farmers were getting caught because their borrowings were larger. The larger one’s borrowings, the greater one’s exposure to prices that are lower than the cost of production. The farmer with 40 cows and little debt will survive for a year or two but the bigger and more progressive farmers will get caught. I am concerned, as a dairy farmer, that milk prices may head south suddenly. I do not want to be recorded as talking down prices because the situation might not be as bad as 2009. There are differences between now and 2009 but the capacity remains for going short in milk production in Europe in the space of one year. The Commission sets a safety net of 21 cent per litre but the cost of production is 28 cent per litre.

Critical elements of market support need to be addressed now in terms of CAP reform. Aid to private storage must be maintained in its current automatic form. It cannot be discretionary, as is being proposed. Even though last year was a good year, 98,000 tonnes of butter went into aid to private storage. More than 40,000 tonnes have gone into aid for private storage this year. If that tool for managing the markets was not available we would be in dire straits. It needs to be improved and enhanced rather than changed. We need a monitoring agency that is catered for through legislation and a safety net that is based in reality.

I will conclude to because my colleagues may also wish to contribute. I am open to further questions as I have a feeling that I left out some aspects that might be important.

Mr. Pat McCormack

The president, Mr. Comer, has covered a lot of ground but as chairman of the dairy committee of our association I am aware from area meetings that dairy farmers are concerned about the base reference year and the possibility of losing land from the milking platform. The milking platform is the key to achieving our ambitions under Food Harvest 2020. There are also concerns that the greening initiative will infringe on the ability of active farmers to produce. Agricultural produce will play a significant part in seeing our economy through these turbulent times. If approximation of the single farm payment is used in a meaningful manner it might alleviate some of the difficulties with the base year.

As Mr. Comer pointed out, it is critical that we set a floor for milk prices that is sustainable for Irish dairy farmers. If the first six months of 2010 had been similar to 2009 our Food Harvest 2020 ambitions would be significantly different. Dairying is an indigenous industry that can contribute handsomely to the economy over the long term. Cows are milked in every parish and constituency in rural Ireland and it is vital that market supports kick in during turbulent times to ensure a reasonably sustainable price for Irish dairy farmers.

I welcome the representatives from the ICMSA and wish them well in their new role and the important work they are doing for the farmers they represent.

The outcome of the CAP negotiations will determine the shape of agriculture in the medium to long-term. The representatives have pinpointed the proposal that 2011 should be a reference year. Anyone who is even remotely connected with farming would acknowledge the detrimental effect that mentioning 2014 as a reference year has had in terms of distorting land rental markets.

In recent meetings with us, MEPs have expressed concern about the budget of July of last year. There was great relief among the farming community in Ireland and throughout Europe when the Common Agricultural Policy budget was secured for the next several years but concerns in this regard have since arisen and the pressure is increasing. We cannot do anything until the full budget has been put in place.

Do the representatives agree that greening as it is proposed will simply add further bureaucracy and red tape to farming? Every proposal from Europe over the past several years promised to reduce bureaucracy but what happened in practice has been the doubling of bureaucracy.

There is concern among a large number of dairy farmers about the current position on milk prices. Mr. Comer is correct that intensive farmers who have heavily borrowed are under ferocious pressure. The events of 2009 are still fresh in the memories of dairy farmers. A sustainable European policy is needed to protect milk suppliers. There is a great future for milk production and marketing but we must protect farmers from market distortions when they need support.

When the 2011 reference year was included, there was hope in the farming community that it would alleviate market distortions. A significant area of land has been taken off the market or changed lease. Perhaps the witnesses can comment on that matter and on milk production and price. I wish the witnesses the best of luck as they embark on their role, which is important for ICMSA members and for agriculture.

I welcome the delegation from the ICMSA. It is important that everyone understands the importance of agriculture to farmers, to the national economy and to food security throughout Europe. We are all working towards that agenda. We are looking to maximise the potential of Irish agriculture and we agree with Food Harvest 2020 and the steps it recommends to hit the targets. The president of the ICMSA said, on taking up the post, that he is on a learning curve. Some members of the committee are also on a learning curve. We are listening and learning.

We share many of the ICMSA's concerns about where we are and where we are going. Great store is set by the fact that important decisions will be made during Ireland's EU Presidency. However, other factors may mean the important decisions on the overall EU budget, not just the CAP budget, will be delayed. We may not be able to adhere to the desired timing of decisions. We need to have more than an aspiration that the decisions will be made during Ireland's Presidency.

I understand concerns about dairy farmers. What is the view of the witnesses on negotiations on the price floor for milk supplies? It is essential for any business. There must be certainty on the price of the product. Otherwise, there will not be investment in the manufacture of the product in any business. Have we formulated detailed proposals? I have not seen any proposals from the Government side but that may be due to the fact that I am on a learning curve.

Flattening is a major concern as it has the potential to introduce large swings, including increases and decreases, that make businesses unviable. We must do more than say it is dangerous. The Commissioner seems to be wedded to the notion of flattening. We need to understand and address the reasons that the Commissioner wants to go this route. If we do not understand it, we will not be in a position to table alternatives that will be taken seriously by the Commissioner. The specific concerns of those seeking flattening need to be understood and addressed. Perhaps the route is through a graduated approach rather than introducing imbalances.

I share the concern about greening. Green requirements will be standard across all European nations. Irish agriculture has operated a green operation for centuries and it will cost more and involve bureaucracy. Many people will have their entitlements removed for minor transgressions even though we have run it well for centuries. We must be insistent that greening proposals work with the way we do business here. We are among the best European nations.

I welcome the delegation. Although I am looking at this from the tillage prospective, farming is quite similar across the board. First, we must get to 2014 and then consider 2014 onwards. They are two distinct periods but it is important to survive until 2014. If we do not make the first hurdle, we will not make the second.

I agree with the witnesses' message about 2009, which is that farmers were exposed. The tillage industry has faced this on a regular basis. While we need to look towards Europe, we must also look towards ourselves to counteract variability. We will see huge variability in prices. In the tillage industry, grain increased from €182 per tonne last November to €238 per tonne now. These are swings that no one can see coming. Milk prices will also vary. There will be high input costs, which are variable costs, due to weather or fertiliser prices. There may also be a lower yield, due to the weather or disease. There may also be a lower product price, which can happen at any time, and higher fixed costs. At the moment, we see a rush to build milking parlours. As someone who grew up on a dairy farm, I find some of today's milking parlours have fantastic machines but cost a fortune. There must be a business case made so that we do not build cow palaces for the sake of it. We must make sure there is value for money. After the last building scheme, people spent a fortune on buildings and then discovered they could have built the building without the grant at the price that was prevalent later.

We must take a number of decisions at home. I agree with the witnesses that approximation is a good method. To get to the point of approximation, I favour stacking up to 25%. This means there will not be a rush to seek land for a map. I have lost land due to maps and other people have taken land at crazy prices. This land is not making money. The policing of map farming must be closely examined. A person who puts down his name as the farmer of the land and receives the payment is acting fraudulently. When the last single farm payment was established, I was one of the people who asked how much the farmer who actually farmed the land was entitled to from the single farm payment. In many cases, the farmer farmed the land and another person claimed area aid. In effect, there was a partnership even though it was not written on paper. This cannot be allowed to happen a second time. There is an expectation of huge payments in perpetuity and we need to spell it out that it is unacceptable for people to claim the payment if they are not farming the land. It is very easy to prove if one is farming the land because invoices can be produced. There are a number of ways to screen for active farmers. REPS, which I was involved in, is a very good scheme and we should look towards the EU to promote REPS in a positive light rather than presenting greening in a negative light. Greening will probably be reduced to some extent not because it is a bad idea, but because it will cost too much to administer. The flat rate payment is detrimental and does not promote innovation or good farming.

As for the reference year, I believe the damage is already done. From my experience of land changing hands, we have almost exhausted that argument. I also note the Commissioner is adamant that the reference year is as close to the new scheme as possible and I understand his argument. However, during the good times it is incumbent on all farmers, tillage or milk or otherwise, to start putting money aside, meaning a certain percentage of the milk price is put aside in a fund to protect against the troughs. A multitude of factors come into in play. As soon as one loses control of a farm one does not have working capital. Banks have still a way to come, even though they are promoting farming very much at the moment. Prices were heading towards 40 cent and they are now heading rapidly in the other direction. It is incumbent on us to start placing money either in a centralised fund or with the co-ops in order to protect the milk price when it goes below a certain level. These trends will continue and while I hope we will never see a 20 cent a litre price for milk for a long time again, we need to be up at 30 cent for people to invest as opposed to living on depreciation.

I extend a welcome to the ICMSA delegation and to the Macra na Feirme members who are in the Gallery. It is good to have them with us.

The most important factor is to ensure the budget is agreed. We can disagree afterwards but at least when the budget is agreed and Ireland knows what it will get, we can go about sharing it. I know that young farmers will be looked after. It is interesting to note there are 500,000 hectares - a new figure - with no entitlements. Quite a number of farmers started farming since 2002 when the last regime started and they have no entitlements. We have to ensure that those farmers are looked after. There are a number of farmers with very small entitlements and in my view they have be looked after and their entitlements must be increased. Whether this is by a degree of flattening or taking a little bit off the very high payments and moving it towards the smaller payments I do not know, but there has to be some little bit of balance. Agriculture is playing a key role and indeed, can play a key role in the future. There is talk of 300,000 jobs. It has been noted throughout the country in the past two months that there is activity on farms and money being spent within co-ops, in hardware stores and the marts. While the country is in a downturn and in recession, at least the farmers are moving ahead and planning for the future and this is good to see. There may be problems in the dairy sector when the quotas go, with a possible drop in milk prices, but farmers in that sector are spending money. Even in the west I see new dairies being built and farmers making preparations.

A new AEOS scheme is crucial. I have worked with the IFA in the past and I have negotiated REPS 2, 3 and 4. These were wonderful schemes over the past 18 years and they have put a lot of money into rural Ireland. It is crucial to have a scheme to replace them.

I thank Mr. John Comer and Mr. Pat McCormack for their contributions. The overall budget envelope is crucial. We learned a lot from the Commissioner when he visited the country recently. He explained to us the difficulties in getting the overall envelope and the linkages. He is not able to sell it to the other Commissioners that this payment is based on a date from a long time ago. He has his difficulties. The future date is 2014 and I acknowledge this is causing significant problems. The biggest issue for Ireland is that this is not a problem in other countries; it is a predominantly Irish problem. The proposal for 2011 was specifically for the Irish situation and even that is unpopular.

I welcome and support the ICMSA's comment that the CAP is a support for consumers as well as for farmers and this is an interesting point that is not highlighted sufficiently. This is the first time for co-decision with the Parliament and our MEPs will play a vital role in this process.

Like previous speakers I welcome the delegates and wish them every success in their new roles. They take up their new responsibilities at a very challenging time which will involve many negotiations.

Along with the previous groups who have appeared before this committee, we all agreed on the key points which will arise over the next couple of months. We would hope to negotiate the same amount in the budget as in the past but it is now a different situation. There is the possibility that if the budget is reduced, Pillar 2 may be under pressure. It is crucial to achieve agreement on this point sooner rather than later.

The greening issue has generated much conversation and debate. I agree with the point made by ICMSA that there are many contradictions in the proposals. There will be a lot of bureaucracy associated with the introduction of another segment of the green issue. The draft proposals specified that bureaucracy be minimised and the process be streamlined but this would introduce more bureaucracy. Generally speaking, all farmers want to get away from paperwork and get on with farming. Bureaucracy is one of the key issues that needs to be addressed so that we can get down to the brass tacks.

Flexibility and having control of our own funds is a very important consideration. The proposed flat rate system does not suit Ireland. We all know that land does not change hands in this country too often; the rate is once every 300 years compared to once in every 75 years in France. A special case will need to be made for Ireland. I agree with my colleague, Deputy Barry, that a lot of damage has been done already with regard to the reference year of 2014. Farmers are their own worst enemies. In good times such as in the spring following a good harvest or following a good dairy year, farmers will pay over the top for conacre. This happens every year, irrespective of whether it is a reference year or not. The fact that 2014 has been mentioned already has exacerbated the problem and there is no going back from that now. There has to be some movement in that regard and an attempt to achieve some leeway.

It is crucial to have a common policy for Ireland on what we want from the CAP. I ask if the ICMSA has had meetings with other farming groups within the country and European farming groups to hear their views on whether there may be common areas of agreement. Farm groups in other European countries could lobby their governments and this would help us to get the best possible deal.

I have a dairy farm and I listened with interest to the ICMSA's concerns about the dairy industry. It has been one of the key elements in developing agriculture. It is important to have a base price and support for the industry. There were challenging times in the past and I hope we get over those issues in the future. I wish the ICMSA every success in its endeavours in the coming months as we all face the many challenges coming up to a hopeful agreement on the Common Agricultural Policy towards the end of this year.

I welcome the ICMSA delegation to the meeting.

I will ask the same question as I put to the IFA, namely, what is the ICMSA approach to the ecological focus areas which are being suggested as part of the greening measures? Given that dairy farming would be broadly accepted as being one of the more intensive types of farming, the greening measures might pose greater difficulties for dairy farmers than others in the ecological focus areas, and there is the possibility of pooling farms together for the purposes of greening. I would like to hear the view of representatives on that issue. Has the ICMSA a view on the proposals which are being bounced about on introducing greening measures only on farms over a certain threshold size, perhaps the EU average farm size? Have the farm organisations with which the ICMSA has been in discussions have a view on the matter?

An issue which is not directly related to the Common Agricultural Policy - not an issue on which there is a common policy across Europe but one which resurrected itself last weekend in the media - was the controversy as to whether the sale of raw milk should be banned or regulated. As a representative of dairy farmers, does the ICMSA have a view on the matter?

Mr. John Comer

Many questions have been posed and many names have been mentioned. The general theme was the opening theme. Three specific items were mentioned, three specific categories that are crucial to the debate: the base year, the flattening and the greening. There is no point in speaking about budgets because it is obvious that we require a budget. Irrespective of one's party, everybody will engage in strong lobbying to get the budgets to Ireland; therefore, we will take that as a given.

On the greening measures, ICMSA readily recognises the requirement for the EU citizen to feel justified in spending taxpayers' money in areas from which they will get a return. The best approach is to embrace greening and to couch the wording and formalisation of the greening element that has a symbiotic relationship between the consumer and the producer. If that can be achieved there will be mutual consent from all citizens in Europe. In Pillar 1 we have already got 18 SMRs and good agricultural environmental practice. Those two conditions which are imposed on farmers to meet the requirements for drawdown of the single farm payment would justify any single farm payment in terms of sustainability, environmental best practice and the nitrates directive. Those conditions are already been achieved in Pillar 1.

The message needs to be communicated to the director general for agriculture and rural development and everybody else that member states need as much discretion as possible in respect of the greening element, because it will be critical to the whole debate. Therefore, we should address it head-on rather than skirt the issue.

The 30% in Pillar 1 is a different issue. If 30% is added to the greening element, that automatically flattens 30% of the payment. That is the reason I said in my initial proposal that the figure being approximated is critical to the debate from an Irish perspective and, in particular, from an individual farmer's perspective, and that of somebody representing farmers. The approximation approach will be critical at whatever figure, whether it is on a per hectare or monetary basis. The ICMSA considers it would be most advantageous to the Irish active producer to have an approximation formula implemented on a monetary basis. Quite simply, if one is in receipt of a €20,000 single farm payment and can justify it by the method outlined, the maximum potential loss or gain would be €2,000 or €2,500. That would address some of the issues raised concerning an imbalance. It is recognised that we have to move away from the historic issue because that is not acceptable to the EU Commissioner; therefore, one has to address the realities. While there is no point in throwing out the baby with the bath water, I accept there are inequities and anomalies in the system. No matter what system is drawn up there will always be inequities and anomalies but they must be minimised. I believe the approximation approach is the most prudent, pragmatic and effective way of keeping the financial advantage with the active producer in Ireland. There are 27 other member states.

Deputy Michael McNamara asked specific questions on ecological focus and greening. Certainly we would like to be in collaboration with other farmers and if the models were put to the Department and Ireland Inc. was able to meet a requirement, there is scope in that area. The critical element in the ecological focus is whether it fits with modern day farm practices and standards in regard to production in Ireland. We are supposed to be green and to achieve the Food Harvest 2020 targets and so on but that would be in contradiction to something that would spancel production. If a system is imposed on us that this is counterproductive in order to draw down finances it will have to be studied closely. The critical element is at what level permanent grassland is allowed to change to non-permanent grassland. The Commissioner is hung up on the permanent grassland definition. That will be critical to the debate because Ireland is not green if one considers permanent grassland to be more than five years old as 99% of our members reseed every five years in order to get production.

Deputy Tom Barry referred to the tillage aspect. Greening has to be defined in tillage terms. That one must have three crops in rotation is too cumbersome in respect of the 70% and the 30%. The detail would impose too much of an impediment on real producers. Those issues can be addressed. That takes care of the flattening and the greening aspect.

In respect of the base year, it has been mentioned a couple of times that it is too late. If we were guaranteed a conclusion to these negotiations, perhaps it is too late. However, I do not believe we are guaranteed such a conclusion. Past experience shows that the negotiations may drag on while Cyprus assumes the EU Presidency for the next six months. Given that agreement on co-decision has to be reached with the Commission, the Council and the Parliament I cannot see that happening. I suggest we continue to lobby for a change of date because 2014 will go to 2015 and, perhaps, to 2016. It appears to me that this particular Commissioner will not be able to finalise the issue.

I was asked if we met other farm groups. Yes, we did. We also met many MEPs from all political hues. The common theme was that they never had more access to a Commissioner and never had less information. I do not believe the 2014 date will be an issue but that it will drag on to 2015. There is an onus on the State to examine land law in Ireland to ensure that no person in breach of land law benefits financially from the single farm payment.

Market supports at a time of crisis will be critical. The ICMSA unashamedly lobbied to have quotas retained because we considered there had to be a supply management situation. Once supply requirements are exceeded the price crashes. That is no good to anybody, especially those on the ground. It was suggested that one saves for the rainy day but if Governments and Teagasc advisers recommend that one invests in order to increase exports, some of the rainy day money might be taken out and then one is very exposed. There is a need for some market management tools which must come through the Commission. The idea of supply management has gone. There is a need for a monitoring agency to be put on a legislative basis and if a dip is coming it will be seen six months hence. There is a need for an independent body which will co-ordinate the cost of production in member states. We need to be able to say what the cost is. I appreciate that Teagasc can say the cost is 28 cent. The safety net at the moment, including the aid to private storage and export refund schemes is as low as 21 cent. If everyone is going out of business, what is the point of having it at that level? That is the level with quotas. We can imagine what will happen when the quotas go and the volume is unlimited. The Commission will not provide cash for an unlimited supply of milk that is in negative equity. It is up to national governments and the Commission to put prudent and practical policies in place. As individual farmers, we are unable to do that. We have lobbied various countries. Obviously, the view changes the further east one goes. I was asked whether we have contacted organisations in certain states. We are affiliated with the European Milk Board, which has members in 15 or 16 countries. The view in western Europe differs from that in eastern Europe. The Commissioner is trying to play both sides and flatten things out. There needs to be as much of a shift as possible from east to west. That is not necessarily good for Europe or for agriculture. We do not need to back away from that. Are there any questions I have not answered?

A question was asked about raw milk.

Mr. John Comer

I have not given raw milk much thought. To be honest, it is not an issue that has arisen to any great extent during ICMSA debates. Those who are selling milk would like options, obviously. I do not drink raw milk even though I am a milk producer. I buy pasteurised milk. Perhaps I should not have put my personal choice on the record. It may have been a naive comment. It is not an issue that has been raised by many of our members. Our deputy president, Mr. McCormack, is the chairman of our dairy committee. Perhaps he would like to comment on the matter.

Mr. Pat McCormack

I am glad some of the members of the committee have noticed that Mr. Comer is something of a scrum-half. This issue arose a couple of years ago. The first thing a food producer needs to do is guarantee human health. If raw milk is to remain legal, the system will have to be extremely well regulated and accountable. In the future, it will all be about accountability. I suggest that Mr. Comer let Deputy Barry off lightly in his comments about the Deputy's colleague, the Minister for Finance. The problem with putting money aside during good years is that it can have tax implications for individuals or for processors when years like 2009 or 2012 have to be dealt with. I am not sure how that could be done.

Deputy Barry also spoke about investment by farmers. They have to consider environmental regulations when they invest. There was a time when one could increase production by feeding one's cows from a circular feeder in a quarry. One could pay for one's facilities thereafter. The current regulations mean one has to have the facilities before one can increase production. It is a creating a bit of a financial stigma for farmers.

I do not mean to pick on Deputy Barry, but I would like to respond to what he said about 25% stacking. In fairness, he said we have to survive until 2014 and then we have to survive after 2014. If we were to say now that the ability to stack by 25% will exist after 2014, what would that do to the land market? I suggest it would drive prices absolutely nuts in the short term.

I am suggesting that it be considered pre-2014.

Mr. Pat McCormack

I can see the merit in doing it pre-2014. I want clarity on that. It has been suggested that the damage with regard to the reference year has already been done. I feel it is only beginning to bubble. The nearer we get to 2014, the higher the bubble will go. As the president has already outlined, it could be 2015 or 2016. It could be the most damaging thing for active farmers in Ireland over the next decade.

I apologise for my late arrival at this meeting. I got caught at another meeting. I will not hold up these proceedings because all of my questions have been covered. I have thumbed through the ICMSA presentation. Mr. Comer covered words like "budget", "flexibility" and "reference years" in his contribution. I would not like this occasion to pass without wishing Mr. Comer well in his job as president of the ICMSA. He is a fellow Mayo man. By reaching the top, he has sent out a message that there is a significant dairy industry in County Mayo and throughout the west. I wish him the best of luck.

We expressed similar sentiments at the beginning of the meeting. This is the first time these representatives of the ICMSA have been in attendance in their current roles.

I would encourage pre-2014 stacking because that would lead to a significant reduction in prices in the land market. Most people have their own land to fall back on. I am renting land at ridiculous prices just to hold the payment. That is a means of handing it away, in effect.

I suggest that the business argument about putting money away for days when prices are not as high is a prudent one. When we have a very good year, we have a very high tax bill the following year even though our incomes might be on the floor. That bill has to be paid. Many farmers who are organising their tax affairs at the moment have significant tax bills, because they had a good year last year, but their incomes have since fallen. These are real issues. Obviously, one has to pay the tax man. We need to open up a debate on whether we should try to secure the industry for ourselves, when we are in receipt of significant funds, rather than giving anything to anybody else. Should we secure it and try to protect ourselves? I am not advocating that - I am merely throwing it out there to see what people feel about it. I am not saying we should do that.

The point I was making about farm buildings was that prices increased when there was a rush for the farm waste management scheme. When that rush was all over, the same buildings could be constructed at a much smaller cost, without having to get it done by midnight on a certain date in December. Farm buildings are now being constructed for between €5 and €6 per square foot. That represents a significant reduction, especially in light of the increase in the price of steel. It used to cost twice that. When there is a deadline, we sometimes get sucked into schemes rather than concentrating on sustainable agriculture. I thank the delegates for their comments.

I thank the representatives of the ICMSA. We have kept them a little longer than we had planned. It has been clear at all the meetings that the degree of uncertainty about the direction that will be taken by the Common Agricultural Policy is not helping. It is causing volatility in the rental market and in pricing. I am concerned that something of a bubble is being created at the moment. A certain level of confidence in agriculture is being shown by lending institutions. There is almost a risk in saying something like that. We need to be prudent. We have seen what commodity trading on the futures market does to the price of the main commodities that are traded, including milk. That is being compounded by the uncertainty with regard to the big ticket items around which the Common Agricultural Policy discussions are crystalising.

It is worth mentioning that Mr. O'Driscoll and his team from the Department were present the day the MEPs attended a meeting of this committee. We were reassured about their competence. They know their way around Europe. They know the main issues. They know how best to negotiate on behalf of the farming sector. Although certain differences of opinion have been expressed, it is important that the Irish position is unified at the end of this. It has been made clear by all the organisations which have expressed their views at this forum that regardless of what else we do, we should ensure Ireland has a unified position when we go out there to get down to the hardcore business of negotiating a final deal. The deal will not be perfect from an Irish point of view. Without the budget, which is self-explanatory, we do not have anything to negotiate with. Ireland must have a unified position when it is negotiating among 27 countries so that we can get the best possible deal for the Irish agri-food sector. That work will be underpinned by the Commissioner's own principles of producing as much food as possible in the EU sustainably while protecting rural communities. The best tactic to secure the best deal is to stick to this and base the Irish position on it. The budget is another day's work. These are the best cards Ireland has.

I agree wholeheartedly that we should embrace greening and tweak it to suit the Irish position. We can look at it in two different ways, but we should argue that we are one of the countries which can produce food and protect the environment. As some MEPs stated when they were before the committee, the taxpayers of Europe have the right to demand that food be produced and that the environment be protected. This is a public good, just as a carbon credit is a public good. It should have a value, be it a trading value or another recognised value, and should be credited to one. It goes to what Deputy McNamara mentioned several times with regard to pooling, which has a role in countries which have very good land as well as ecological areas as opposed to the parts of Europe comprising mono-agricultural plains.

The witnesses have another meeting to attend and we have other witnesses to come before us. I thank them very much and I wish them well. We will send them a copy of any documentation we send to Europe.

Sitting suspended at 3.12 p.m. and resumed at 3.15 p.m.

We are back in public session. From Macra na Feirme I welcome Mr. Alan Jagoe, national president; Mr. Edmond Connolly, CEO, Mr. Derry Dillon, agricultural affairs manager, and Mr. John Joyce, chairman of the agricultural affairs committee. I thank them for coming before the committee. They were present when I explained privilege so I will ask Mr Jagoe to make his opening statement.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the opportunity to attend this meeting and to communicate the key issues of importance to young farmers in the reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. I am a 29 year old dairy, beef and tillage farmer from south Cork. Mr. Joyce is a beef, sheep and tillage farmer from north Tipperary. We all have a keen interest in pursuing a healthy and active CAP for farmers and consumers. I will keep my presentation brief and focus on the measures dealing with young farmers outlined in the European Commission's legislative proposals. We will leave the broader issues with regard to CAP to the other farm organisations.

The vital importance of securing a strong package for young farmers in the new CAP post-2013 is best demonstrated by the fact we are now down to a point at which just 5% of Irish farmers are under 35 years of age, a fact broadly replicated throughout the EU. Under the current CAP not enough young farmers are facilitated to enter farming, and based upon current numbers of approximately 1,000 new entrants per annum, there are simply not enough young people entering farming to sustain the 120,000 farm families in Ireland. In farming terms, the replacement rate is just too low.

CAP reform presents a golden opportunity to create new supports for young farmers and encourage them to commence farming and establish commercial sustainable market-oriented enterprises. The benchmark for the future health and success of Irish agriculture lies in its ability to attract new entrants, so let us not look back in eight years' time lamenting the demise of a sector due to a lack of action to attract and sustain new entrants. Ultimately the rules for establishing and administering the single farm payment and rural development programmes have a significant impact for the future establishment of tomorrow's young Irish farmers.

For new entrants the first years of installation are the most critical ones, as it is vital for young farmers to get the right start and develop long-term sustainable businesses. These years are also the most critical with regard to income from the farm activity and getting support for investment in the farm business. This is why we need reform of the CAP to deliver a combination of policy tools including a mandatory young farmer top-up in the single farm payment; a young farmer start up and investment package under rural development funds; a national reserve of entitlements with priority for young farmers; and strong investment in education and training, which my colleagues will outline shortly. The greatest challenge for Irish agriculture is structural change. The CAP must drive structural readjustment in primary agriculture and, as a result, drive competitiveness and increased output. For us to be serious about tackling the problem of generational renewal the measures proposed in CAP reform must be mandatory for each member state, in essence a common installation of young farmers policy, in line with the Common Agricultural Policy.

The main structural barriers are the age profile of farmers and land mobility. Primary agriculture needs youth. Recent Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine figures show only 5%, or 6,228, farmers under the age of 35 receive a single farm payment. Farmers are getting older, as can be seen in Department figures which show that 33,527 farmers over 65 - or 28% of all farmers - are in receipt of a single farm payment. Contrast this with the demand for agricultural education which is higher than it has been in decades. Greater numbers of qualified young farmers will seek to start up in farming. Now more than ever we need CAP to facilitate young farmers to start up and older farmers to retire or exit with dignity so the industry as a whole can be more productive and generate more income.

We will outline our case by focusing on the four areas of CAP reform which directly relate to young farmers, namely, the single farm payment top-up, the national reserve, the installation package and collaborative arrangements for new entrants. Macra na Feirme has actively sought a 25% top-up payment on their single farm payment for young farmers to directly support them. Commissioner Ciolos is fully committed to a mandatory top-up for young farmers. We welcome this measure. However, due to the restrictive criteria surrounding this measure, Irish young farmers would only be able to draw down an average top-up of between €800 and €1,000 per year for their first five years, even though the overall budget would allow an average payment in Ireland of €4,000 per young farmer. If this measure is going to make a difference by encouraging new entrants, we need the flexibility in Ireland to fully access the support that has been already provided in the CAP proposals. As members know, the single farm payment is 100% EU-funded and, therefore, it is in our interest to fully utilise the young farmer measure to increase the number of young farmers in Ireland.

I will pass over to Mr. Joyce who will talk about the national reserve.

Mr. John Joyce

I am a full-time farmer in north Tipperary. I am the newly elected chair of the agricultural affairs committee. A national reserve mechanism already exists and we believe it should be in the new CAP proposals for young farmers starting off. As the previous speaker said, not every farmer started before 2002. Anybody who started afterwards had no access to entitlements unless they bought or inherited them. As somebody who has applied for them, I understand the strict criteria involved. As Macra na Feirme looks towards the next CAP proposals, we recognise that we need something in place to facilitate the many young farmers who will start off after 2014. Not everybody is in a position to inherit a farm, especially with farmers not retiring as early owing to financial or personal issues, and we definitely need a mechanism in place to facilitate these younger farmers.

There are strict criteria and qualification is not easy. We definitely need proper funding in place to support these young people. This year's deadline for the single farm payment is tonight and the maximum payment this year is only €5,000, which is a small amount of money for anybody starting out in farming considering that the average single farm payment in Ireland is €10,000 and obviously there are plenty of farmers with bigger entitlements. Anybody who qualifies for the maximum will still be on the back foot competing against these larger-scale farmers. We need something in place in the next round of the CAP talks.

I will hand back to Mr. Jagoe.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

I will now pass over to our chief executive, Mr. Connolly, to talk about the installation aid programme.

Mr. Edmond Connolly

Macra na Feirme believes that Pillar 2 of the Common Agricultural Policy needs to deliver the renewal of generations, the installation of young people, and the encouragement of dynamic and sustainable farm businesses. Under the European Commission's legislative proposals for rural development in Pillar 2, provisions are set out for an installation policy for young farmers. The current installation aid scheme which provided a once-off payment of €15,000 to Irish young farmers to fund start-up has been suspended since September 2009. Macra na Feirme believes there should be an obligation on member states to implement fully all young farmer measures agreed in the rural development plan.

The CAP reform proposals provide for the inclusion of a young farmer installation aid package to support the capital costs of setting up, including conveyance and capital expenditure. In practical terms, installation aid was a trigger mechanism that facilitated the younger member in a family to take over from a retiring parent in many cases. Without that trigger mechanism we have seen a slow-down in farm transfers. There is the provision of a start-up grant for young trained farmers based upon a business plan setting out a clear investment strategy to develop the enterprise. The proposals include a co-funding ratio of 80% from EU funding and 20% from national funding to replace the current 50:50 arrangement. This would make it more attractive for Ireland to reintroduce installation aid. Therefore, we call on the Council and European Parliament to endorse such a measure.

Mr. Derry Dillon

The team of co-operation, which includes partnerships, share farming and other joint ventures, presents a real opportunity for Irish agriculture. This measure has the potential to assist young farmers with no family farms or unviable farms to get established in farming. Such young farmers and older farmers who have no successor need to be facilitated to work together. We estimate that between 12,000 and 15,000 farmers aged over 65 have no identified successor. There is a necessity to work together to find solutions and address this major structural issue facing Irish agriculture.

New initiatives within the various sectors to support new entrants and young farmers should be ongoing. For example, in the dairy sector the new entrant milk quota scheme has provided a very positive start to more than 200 non-traditional new entrants into the sector. Similar additional initiatives and supports, often with little or no financial costs to the Exchequer, are required. All new farming schemes or initiatives under the rural development programme should be tailored to ensure new entrants are encouraged.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

The reform of the CAP is an opportunity to prioritise the needs of young farmers. It is an opportunity to encourage more young farmers to become established in farming. Instead of having 6,000 farmers under 35, we should strive towards having 10,000 farmers under 35. We need the flexibility to draw down the full 2% provision for the young farmer top-up. There is no point in having a measure in the CAP we cannot access. There will always be farmers who fall between rules and miss out on measures intended for their benefit. This is why we need a properly funded national reserve. Farming is a capital-intensive, expensive industry to get started in. Installation aid is recognised throughout Europe as the best means of providing a kick-start for young farmers. Now, more than ever, Ireland needs a good installation aid package.

With so many farmers at or nearing retirement, we need to design and support new ways for young trained farmers to work with retiring landowners for their mutual benefit and to fully realise the potential of Irish agriculture. We will gladly take any questions members may have.

I thank Mr. Jagoe. I note the appendix to the Macra na Feirme presentation deals with the anomaly preventing the drawdown of the full top-up.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

That is correct.

Before I call Deputy Moynihan, I ask Mr. Jagoe to explain the details of that.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

Ireland does not have enough young farmers to draw down the full allocation of the 2%. There is a top-up percentage for young farmers which is 25% of the basic single farm payment. Any young farmer - one under the age of 40 as defined by the EU - who commences farming is eligible for this. It is for a duration of five years and the limit of support is up to 25 ha, but that is available up to the member state average, which in Ireland is 32 ha. Two percent of Pillar 1 funding is set aside for that. Twenty-five percent of the average base payment of €170 is €42.50. Based on a maximum area of 32 ha, this comes to €1,360. We would need 22,000 farmers to draw down the full allocation. That is why we are calling for greater flexibility within this measure to draw down as much money as possible from Europe - not from Ireland - to give young farmers the start-up they so badly need.

The next page of the appendix refers to an average payment of €4,000. If the 2% is mandatory, is Macra na Feirme suggesting there should be an optional extra 2% where the quota cannot be filled by the complement of qualifying young farmers under 40?

Mr. Alan Jagoe

We need the option to draw down the full 2%, but if so needed it should go up to 3% to get that greater level of flexibility.

That is what I was asking. It was important to have that explained in advance of the members' questions.

I welcome the members of Macra na Feirme and congratulate them on the work they do for young farmers and communities across the country not just on the farming scene, but also on the social scene. Macra na Feirme groups have been tremendously successful and I wish the organisation well in all its endeavours, both in farming and socially.

I welcome the detailed presentation and well presented document. It is vital to get the message across about the payment for young farmers. There were discussions and indications from various groups and individuals that it might be put to one side, but it is vital that the funding is drawn down in full from the European Union and is directed to young people entering farming. There is always an issue about young people entering farming and the avenues to get into farming. There is the traditional one of inheritance, where parents or relatives have a farm and they inherit the farm and the entitlements with it. There are also other young people who are mad to get involved in farming but do not have access to land.

In Ireland, uniquely in the European Union, it is more difficult to get into farming if one does not have a traditional family base in it. Throughout Europe, for various reasons and due to different policies that might be centuries old at this stage, it is easier to get into farming through long-term leases. Even the presentation from the ICMSA spoke about 25 year leases, which is unheard of in this country. Leases tend to be for five or seven years. In fact, a seven year lease is nearly a document sealed in gold in this country, not to mind a long-term lease. It is important, regardless of what criteria are used, that young people currently engaged in agricultural education, be it in the agricultural colleges or elsewhere, have an ability to get into farming and that a policy is devised in that regard. To be frank, it is hugely problematic. It probably dates back to the Land War and so forth, with people holding onto land and not using it to its greatest productivity. What is required is a policy to try and encourage people to participate in partnerships or some other system.

On partnerships, I am aware that Macra na Feirme has a strong attitude to them. There must be a rethink about partnerships. Some partnerships have had excellent participation and results, but others have dissolved in legal disputes. There must be an overall re-examination of partnerships with a view to encouraging them to ensure critical mass, efficiencies and so forth. The most important issue, however, is that we ensure that the full amount of money available from Europe for young farmers is drawn down and directed to people who wish to engage actively in farming. In addition, we must ensure that it is targeted at people who would not have an opportunity without this payment.

Unfortunately I must leave this meeting as I have to attend another meeting. I thank the witnesses and wish them the best of luck in their work.

I warmly welcome the representatives of Macra na Feirme and compliment them on their excellent presentation. It was very straightforward, well structured and easy to understand. We would actively support everything put forward in the presentation.

About 18 months ago I attended a meeting of a local farming organisation in Manorhamilton. My neighbour, Senator Michael Comiskey, was also at the meeting. I recall saying at the meeting, perhaps unwisely, that the biggest risk facing agriculture in the north west could be seen in the ages of the people who were attending the meeting. There were a small number of young active farmers present, but the vast majority were well advanced in years. It is the single biggest risk for any industry, but particularly for agriculture in this country. We have not done enough through the years to support younger farmers getting involved in agriculture. There are people in Australia and Canada at present who should be farming the green land of Ireland. It would be interesting to look at the cost of an IDA-created job in Ireland and contrast that with the small amount Macra na Feirme is seeking to get more young farmers involved in agriculture. I believe the difference would be stark. The young farmer who goes into agriculture now will not, in seven years' time when the tax incentive is finished, go to a low cost country where production costs are cheaper. If we get the young farmer in, put the funding in place and get the operation up and running, there will be an industry for life. That is the difference.

I agree with the witnesses that not enough has been done. We must change that. I very much welcome the very sensible proposals they have put forward. They deserve every support. I have no doubt that every member of this committee will fully support them on this.

I thank the witnesses for giving their time to attend this meeting. This is an important process as we are meeting with all the groups and farm representative bodies. I seek clarification of one point. Mr Jagoe said the 2% would be European money. Is the 2% part of the overall national envelope or is it extra money that does not impact on our envelope?

Mr. Alan Jagoe

The 2% is in the national envelope for all member states, but essentially the majority contribution comes from Europe rather than Ireland.

However, it is still within one group.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

Yes, it is all part of Pillar 1.

The Minister, Deputy Coveney, deserves recognition for having been a champion of the measures at European level and for having fought to get many of the proposals included. It is very important that work continues to ensure they are not diluted and stay included. The land mobility issue is of real significance and we went some way towards addressing that in the budget. The key support is in that.

The witnesses made the point about flexibility as regards the top-up and flexibility in general. Flexibility and simplification are key words in everything to do with the CAP. Invariably we tend to see more bureaucracy every time the CAP is renegotiated. This issue is crucial because, regardless of what age the farmer is, red tape means lost time. I accept the point about flexibility and I believe "simplification" is another important word.

As a young farmer, I received installation aid when it was available. There is a slatted shed in my back yard that would not be there if I had not received that aid. That is a simple fact. It was hugely important for me when I started as a young farmer.

I thank the witnesses for the very informative presentation, and I look forward to working with them over the coming months.

I welcome the representatives of Macra na Feirme. I am a former member, although I will not mention in what decades. I am very interested in the presentation. There is a problem with getting young people into agriculture in this country. For a long time it was not sexy to be involved in farming. Suddenly, it is back on the agenda and we have seen how places in the agricultural colleges and in agriculture courses in universities have been filled. However, part of the problem is that to get young people into farming we must get older people to move out of it. Whether a retirement package can be put through in the CAP reform is something worth researching to draw up some figures.

The president said he would leave other parts to be dealt with by other farm organisations. I did not say at the last meeting with the ICMSA but I did at previous meetings with the ICSA and the IFA that it is very important - the Chairman summed it up at the meeting with the ICMSA - that we have a united front in this country among all the farm organisations. If we are seen to be divided, we will be easier to conquer. That is important. Despite what the president said, I would welcome hearing Macra na Feirme's comments on the flat rate payment, the greening and the reference years.

We should also recognise the favourable tax measures the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, brought forward in the last budget in very stringent economic times. They pertained to young farmers, partnerships and so on. The witnesses stressed the importance of making it viable for young farmers to enter farming. Do the measures Macra na Feirme has proposed apply only to those young farmers who will enter farming without inheriting a family farm? Some family farms may have large entitlements and while I do not suggest the position would be abused, how would partnership arrangements be policed in the case of such a large entitlement? A farm could be divided to enable someone to seek installation aid or entitlements from the national reserve, thereby taking them from someone who is a more deserving case. I invite the witnesses to comment on this issue. I may be obliged to leave for a vote but if I do not return, the reply will be on the record.

I thank the four witnesses for an excellent presentation. It is highly encouraging to see young articulate people involved in the agricultural and farming sector, which I believe offers huge potential for reclaiming our sovereignty, because their contribution will be invaluable in the future. They have stated that 5%, or approximately 1,000, young farmers come into the industry each year. Can the witnesses provide a breakdown on whether the young men and women coming into farming are doing so through inheritance or by renting land and trying to start up on their own? The installation aid scheme was a fantastic scheme. For young people in particular who were starting off, giving them the €15,000 start-up grant and so forth was essential. Does anything in the ongoing negotiations with regard to the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, suggest to the witnesses that it will be restored? Regardless of the sphere of farming in which one is involved, the cost factor for entry for young farmers is huge at present and such help can make the difference between making it or not. Do the witnesses envisage any possibility that this scheme may be revived? I wish the witnesses well, as they are the future of farming. Members have heard presentations from the IFA, the ICMSA and so on and a particular point to emerge concerns the proposed reference year of 2014. As it appears this will be the case, it is creating great difficulty for those who must rent land to enable them to be there or thereabouts at that point in time. As for the concern about the historical aspect versus the 2014 aspect, does Macra na Feirme have a view on this issue? I personally believe that while the historical aspect has worked, perhaps it must be reconsidered.

On a slightly different topic, I note from a publication by the IFA that Macra na Feirme is calling for a "Yes" vote in the forthcoming referendum. Regardless of how people vote, everyone will agree on the importance of people registering and voting. This is particularly important for young people among whom there can be low voter turnout. Does Macra na Feirme engage in campaigning to get young people to register and vote both in this referendum and more broadly, in elections in general?

I apologise to the officers of Macra na Feirme but I was obliged to attend another meeting for the past ten or 15 minutes. However, I was anxious to return and at least to read the submission. I was interested in Macra na Feirme's thoughts on what is being proposed in the CAP discussions regarding the mandatory 25% top-up for a farmer who is under 40 years of age. I also note Macra na Feirme's concerns regarding the limited nature of the scheme. Essentially, one can draw down one fifth or one sixth of the total provision under the 25% top-up. In almost all discussions they have had with farmer organisations, members have stated flexibility is required in how such matters are approached, whether it concerns flexibility in greening, in respect of the single farm payment or in how we make our own decisions. Obviously, this offers another argument to call for flexibility in how we manage the €24 million to encourage younger farmers to enter the business. What is the proposal for moneys allocated under the scheme that are unspent if the incentive is not in place and young farmers fail to take up the full scheme? The witnesses might clarify for members where such unspent or on allocated funds eventually would end up.

Mr. Alan Jagoe

I will try to go through as much as possible. Deputy Moynihan mentioned how various people in recent weeks or months have referred to squashing or reducing the young farmer element. We have come under increasing pressure from various different sources in recent months and I must question seriously the commitment of such people and organisations to young farmers in the future. Young farmers are the lifeblood of the industry and if they are not looked after or catered for, now more than ever, they will not have a future in farming. We travelled to Brussels last week, where we met Georg Haeusler, who is head of cabinet for Commissioner Ciolos. He told us of his visit to a fairly significant member state, where he was asked why young farmer measures were needed, given no more young farmers remained. This is how serious and real is this issue. Unless young farmers are looked after within the CAP in the future, they will not be there. He also referred to young people getting into farming and I note our colleges are full of young people who wish to farm. However, by our estimations and from talking to people, approximately half of them have no place to go because they might have a brother or sister at home, the holding might be too small or the farm may be too fragmented. Consequently, potentially we are losing half of our students each year. As someone said, they are travelling to Australia and New Zealand and working abroad on other farms, instead of working here on Irish farms. Deputy Moynihan also mentioned partnerships and we are fully aware there are some problems with partnerships at present. It is a matter about which we work continually with Teagasc in an effort to address such issues and to develop and push such partnerships further, along with other collaborative arrangements.

Deputy Colreavy mentioned the lack of young farmers in the west in particular and this is the fault of the industry in recent years. The industry did not look after young farmers and did nothing to encourage young farmers into the sector. Most people ended up in farming by default. They were either the oldest or youngest child in their family and they were the person who was left at home feeding the calves in the evening. They fell into farming in a sense and were not really encouraged into it by the industry. This issue is really worrying. Deputy Heydon mentioned the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and his support for young farmers. I had something of a run-in with the Minister quite recently when he commented to the effect that he would support a voluntary measure, if compromise was needed. For a young Minister to state this highly significant measure potentially could become a voluntary measure was extremely disheartening from the perspective of a young farmers' organisation and I assure the Deputy I passed on that message to him. The Deputy mentioned flexibility and I agree flexibility is needed in respect of the young farmer measure, greening and all other measures, This point is extremely important. He also mentioned installation aid and as he noted himself, if one talks to those farmers in their late 30s or early 40s who benefited from installation aid, features such as the slatted shed, building work or extensions to the milking parlour would not have happened without it. This is the reason Macra na Feirme is really pushing for it within the Pillar 2 package.

Senator O'Neill mentioned moving old people on and it is a huge problem. Financial stimulus is required to move people on. If one looks back at what the early retirement scheme did in conjunction with installation aid, huge numbers of farmers were facilitated by older farmers stepping back. This is a matter that must be examined again.

Mention was made of Macra working with other organisations on the broader issues, which is what we are continuously doing, although more so in the background. We are focused solely today on young farmer issues. As regards greening, it is important to note that the CAP is already green because we, as Irish farmers, are adhering to the water framework directive, nitrates directive and cross-compliance. It is important to get the message across to Europe that these are already being implemented by Irish farmers. In terms of greening, we need a greater number of measures put in place. The three measures currently in place are restrictive to Irish farmers. The ecological focused area was mentioned. There is a need to be member state specific in this regard. It might be better if Ireland, as a member state, were to set aside 7% as an ecological focused area rather than be farm specific. For example, last week, I attended our national AGM in the west - which is Deputy Colreavy's part of the country - where there are huge areas with hedgerows and waterways which are filling the ecological focused area while in my part of the country, where there is intensive tillage and dairy areas, farms are down to only 1% or 2% ecological focused areas. There is a need for flexibility within member states.

The issue of 2014 as the reference year was mentioned. This presents a huge problem for young farmers going forward. As young farmers, we are extremely open to volatility within the markets. We do not have the backing of the single farm payment when bidding against other farmers wishing to obtain conacre and so on. We are more exposed. Large numbers of young farmers, who have built up relatively large farms over a short space of time through renting from other farmers, are now coming under increasing pressure to withdraw from these farms because the landowner wants the land back so as to obtain the single farm payment, which is extremely worrying.

The issue of registering to vote was mentioned. We encourage all people to register to vote. Unfortunately, the deadline for registration was yesterday. During the past few weeks, we have actively encouraged our members to register on-line and are actively supporting a "Yes" vote on the fiscal stability treaty.

Mr. Edmond Connolly

Senator Pat O'Neill raised the issue of larger farmers getting a bigger top-up, which is the case to a point. We take the view that two owners of a large farm wishing to establish two independent enterprises should not be discouraged from doing so. Deputy Ferris asked about installation aid in CAP post-2013. The proposal is that this would be 80% funded by the European Union and 20% funded by the member state. There is flexibility in terms of member states introducing or not introducing it. We will be asking that Ireland have this as a permanent feature of its Pillar 2 programme. Members will be aware that this was previously suspended in an Irish context.

There has been much talk about flexibility. The Commission chairman has on numerous occasions, including when in Ireland at which time we met him, said that we need to standardise and simplify things across the EU. However, I do not believe that standardising and simplifying go hand in hand. We are talking about a huge area across 27 member states with a significant variety of climates and different geographies and socioeconomic conditions. To standardise across this area is to introduce a degree of complexity on the ground. Macra will be calling for greater flexibility in this area.

Mr. John Joyce

Deputy Ferris mentioned that the historical reference years had worked quite well. However, I am opposed to this. It may have worked well for people lucky enough to be farming strongly in the reference years but for those only starting out in farming who had a bad year it did not work well. It definitely worked well for the majority of older farmers but not for those starting off post-2002.

Mr. Derry Dillon

To follow on from Mr. Joyce's point, Macra originally proposed the concept of a rolling reference year to get over some of the historical basis and the issue of flat payments. In effect, a single farm payment would be determined by a farmer's level of production or activity on-farm. For example, his or her previous year's activity would reflect the level of single farm payment, which could vary from year to year. We felt this would best suit active farmers in this country and would get us over the whole difficulty of landowners retaining the single farm payment while not necessarily being active farmers.

I thank Mr. Jagoe and his colleagues for their beneficial submissions. I agree that the key is to increase young qualified farmer numbers. I have sons in that frame. When I graduated as a farm manager in 1982 I was told there was work for everyone regardless of whether one owned a farm, which was true. One could at that time get a job as a farm manager. However, things have changed. We need to reflect on that.

The witnesses have given us some useful pointers in regard to the structure of top-up payments. Their proposals could usefully be stitched into the committee's considered opinion. We need to come up with a couple of models on taxation code changes - although not perhaps from the context of the CAP reform going into the European Parliament but from the point of view of our own tax codes - to encourage farm partnerships and shared farming. I believe also that we can tie together many things in terms of qualifying farmer entitlements and reference years, although not the distribution of payments. In my opinion, we should have a three year rolling model. There must be a historical element to it but it should roll; on renewal at the end of each year the previous year should be dropped off. As such, where no entitlement has been drawn down for three years they are lost and can only be retriggered by a person becoming a qualified operator.

With regard to the installation scheme in Pillar 2, I wonder if some flexibility could be provided for through proper amendment of the top-up to allow the installation aid to be a form of compensation for people retiring. The witnesses are searching for the same thing from two areas, while not addressing the other half of the equation, which is the retiring farmer. There is much work for the committee to do. The angle from which Macra is coming helps us to address qualifying farmer, rolling reference years and access for young farmers through the national reserve. Part and parcel of this, in a national as well as European context, is the tax code. The Revenue Commissioners are always hesitant about changing tax codes. I fought for years with them about unearned income being applicable from farmer to son. I know personally how much that cost. Even though it was stamped by the Revenue Commissioners and was an actual lease it was not approved for unearned income tax relief. That is only a simple example of the resistance to encouraging that type of fluid movement between the older and younger generations. I refer to the figure of 12,000 to 15,000 over-65 year olds who do not have any natural inheritors or descendants. Even if the figure was greater or smaller than that, someone qualifying could have the farm and one could continue that system. There are all sorts of models with the new arrangements where people take the land and contract to rear heifers for the dairy sector. They are filling a role which was not filled by anybody heretofore. There are opportunities there if we can get flexibility and mobility in land.

I thank the witnesses. I think I speak on behalf of all members when I say the committee has found this extremely beneficial. We will incorporate the suggestions on the whole area of the top-up. We did not have any insight into that until today and it is very important.

Did the Chairman say he would get back to us on the EPA preliminary report on fracking at this meeting?

No. I said we would conclude the other pieces of outstanding work as a committee, including the issue of the Meath-Tyrone interconnector, and then I would come back.

I am sorry. Maybe I did not make that clear.

The joint committee adjourned at 4 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 16 May 2012.
Barr
Roinn