Joint Committee on Disability Matters díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Mar 2024

Planning for Inclusive Communities: Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Murnane O'Connor. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss planning for inclusive communities. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government, and Heritage, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell, and his officials: Patrick O'Sullivan, principal officer, and Clare Naughton, assistant principal officer, social inclusion unit.

Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name or entity of the person. Therefore, their statements, if they are potentially defamatory in identifying a person, and if the witnesses are directed to discontinue their remarks, it is imperative that they do so.

Members are reminded of the long-standing self-same practice that they should not comment on or criticise persons outside of the House in such a way as to make them identifiable. It is important that if members are contributing remotely to the committee, they must do so within the confines of the Leinster House precinct, and to confirm that position to the committee before they begin their remarks if they are contributing on Microsoft Teams.

Without further ado, I call on the Minister of State to make his opening remarks.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much and I am delighted to be here. I also thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to update members in this very important area.

My Department’s policy in respect of housing for disabled people is underpinned by a dedicated joint strategy between my Department and the Department of Health since 2011. The most recent successor, the National Housing Strategy for Disabled People 2022-2027, continues the joint co-operation in particular with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Along with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, I launched the implementation plan for the strategy in June last year. It is a very up-to-date plan. The strategy and implementation plan set out the vision for co-operation and collaboration among Departments, State agencies, including local authorities, and others in delivering housing and related supports for disabled people over the next number of years.

The strategy operates within the framework of Housing for All, which is committed to ensuring that affordable, quality housing with an appropriate mix of housing design types is provided within social housing and is available to everyone in society, including those with disabilities. The plan sets out over four pathways a broad suite of measures to achieve its policy objectives together with a financial commitment of in excess of €4 billion per annum.

The strategy and implementation plan were developed following extensive consultation with disabled people. I am firmly of the opinion that the influence of the lived experience of disabled people, which is reflected in the actions, will be key to the success of the strategy and its implementation plan as it progresses.

The Housing Agency plays a key role as the independent chair of a national implementation steering group, which is actively advancing implementation of the strategy and the delivery of the actions in the implementation plan. The agency, together with all of the Departments and agencies involved, are advancing a comprehensive suite of actions involving all stakeholders to ensure the delivery of the high-level objectives. Among the objectives of the strategy, we aim to meet our commitments under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to facilitate disabled people to live independently and as part of the community. Consequently, the overall vision of the strategy is to facilitate disabled people to live independently with the appropriate choices and control over where, how and with whom they live, promoting their inclusion in the community. The strategy aims to ensure that disabled people have equal access to housing and clearer pathways to accessing support services, promoting their inclusion in the community from a housing perspective. I am working collaboratively with my Government colleagues and delivery partners across the sector in delivering on the actions in this implementation plan to ensure we deliver on the vision set out in the strategy.

My Department is collaborating closely under the strategy with colleagues in the Department of Health, and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, as well as with local authorities and the HSE to drive its delivery to meet the needs of disabled people. Collaboration and communication are key to successful housing outcomes, particularly for disabled people. As part of this collaboration, my Department along with the HSE, jointly fund mental health tenancy sustainment officers who support people with mental health difficulties to sustain their tenancies and prevent homelessness.

Housing and disability steering groups, which were established by local authorities under the previous strategy, are reaffirmed under the new strategy as the most effective forum for delivery of the outcomes of the strategy at local level. I wish to acknowledge the positive feedback provided by representatives of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and by colleagues on this committee, on these groups during previous engagement on this topic. These steering groups bring together the key stakeholders at the local level, ranging from the disabled persons organisations, disabled people themselves, the HSE and local authorities to drive delivery of positive outcomes for disabled people.

My Department delivers on housing for disabled people by both stimulating supply in the private sector and directly funding social housing. Local authorities and approved housing bodies, AHBs, are key partners in this regard. Housing for disabled people is funded from the mainstream capital programmes for social housing in local authorities, as well as the capital assistance scheme, CAS. CAS is a long-standing funding programme used by AHBs for specialised housing with capital funding in excess of €220 million available in 2023 for the provision of housing for particular categories of housing need, including disabled people.

Returns from local authorities indicate an increase year-on-year in allocations of social housing to households with disability as a primary basis of need. While the 2023 data is not readily available at this point, in 2022, allocations to disabled people represented 15% of total allocations, or over 2,400 households with disability as a primary basis of need. The housing adaptation grant scheme for people with a disability and older people, the mobility aids grants scheme and the housing aid for older people scheme continue to support disabled people to remain living in private housing and to make adaptations and improvements to their homes to enable them to go on living there in comfort.

Funding of over €93 million is available to local authorities for these grant schemes in 2024, ensuring a continuation of the year-on-year increases in the grants since 2014. This funding allocation is expected to result in over 13,000 grants for older people and disabled people to facilitate those people living independently in their own homes. Work on the review is at an advanced stage and I will be focused on bringing it to a conclusion shortly in order to bring forward revised regulations governing the schemes.

My Department and I are firmly committed to the strategic framework in place to deliver housing and related supports for disabled people to live independently and will continue to collaborate with other relevant Departments and agencies. At the same time, working collaboratively together with the disability sector is critical to achieving the common objective of the delivery of housing for disabled people through mainstream housing policy in a supported environment. I look forward to engage with the committee and I am happy to answer any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell. I invite Senator Erin McGreehan, who is substituting for Senator Fiona O'Loughlin, to speak.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I thank the Chair. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell, to the committee. Housing is one of the most fundamental things that we need to be able to navigate this world, for obvious reasons. I do not need to tell the Minister of State the importance of housing. However, housing for a person with a disability is a battle, most of the time. I very much welcome the national housing strategy for disabled people. It is only in its second year. How is the Minister of State's Department evaluating that policy? What are the markers that will be used? We are two years into the strategy now. Is there a practical evaluation on how it has improved the lives, the housing situations and predicaments of so many people with disabilities? Currently, if a person with a disability who needs supported living, a house that has universal design or whatever the case may be comes to me, we direct that person to sign up for housing assistance payments, HAP, and the social housing list. However, the possibility of them getting a home on social housing is limited due to the many external factors that must line up; first, a house is needed and a support network is needed, particularly in the case of assisted living.

As far as I can see, the current system is not working. There is no proactive way to ensure that someone's son, daughter, brother or sister will have a safe place to live. We are constantly in a crisis situation in cases where an individual cannot live at home with their elderly parents or where their parents are sadly deceased. We are crisis situation until a house is found.

Is the Department putting a process in place to look at individuals who are born with a disability, or acquire a disability, and who will need housing in the foreseeable future? Sometimes, we have 18, 20 or 25 years to plan for this individual but at the moment we are not doing that. I wish to know how this is going to help people practically on the ground.

The Local Authorities Management Agency, LAMA, was before this committee a couple of months ago and it proudly proclaimed that it was having a pilot programme on universal design and building houses with universal design. In the Department's view, are pilot programmes enough for universal design? It is State money that goes into building much of social housing. We have the biggest budget ever for social housing but if we do not build houses that have longevity to match the needs of a community, then we are putting good money into bad. In that case, housing adaptation grants will then be needed and constituents in social housing will call councils and politicians like us saying that they need their downstairs bathroom adapted or something else adapted. While universal design may be more expensive, why can we not spend good money on a product that will last for a long time and will fit the needs of a lot more people as they age, or whatever happens them, during their lives?

From a housing point of view, there are a lot of housing schemes and policies around supporting people from different backgrounds or predicaments to get their own home. What has the Department done around a person with a disability getting a mortgage?

Has the Department looked at specific mortgage types that someone who has a disability may avail of? Is there an equity scheme the State has looked at whereby a person who may be working, who needs a mortgage and who cannot get one might be able think he or she could get a mortgage, live independently under his or her own steam, pay his or her own mortgage and if he or she did, could buy out the State?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I thank Senator McGreehan. I came into the Department at the start of last year. As the national strategy for housing for people with disabilities had been published, I worked with the officials to bring the implementation plan up to date. It was something I felt very strongly about and we published that. I tried to make it in real time. Within that, we have each of the housing and disability steering groups to bring in all of the local authorities. They are required to report every quarter to the national disability inclusion strategy steering group which is under the chairmanship of the Housing Agency. They have reported already for quarter 3 of last year and have just reported for quarter 4 as well. Furthermore, the first annual report relating to the implementation will be prepared in quarter 3 of this year. I also have asked the Housing Agency to commence a review of the overall strategy, as distinct from the implementation, and to start the review in quarter 2 of this year. I wanted to give some time in terms of the implementation plan being in place with a completion before the end of this year. Effectively, there are a number of elements. First the strategy itself, which is going to be reviewed by the Housing Agency overall. The review will start in quarter 2 of this year. In addition, we have an inflation plan that was published in June of last year and we have quarterly reporting from all of the local authorities and the housing and disability steering groups. That goes in every quarter and there are reports for two quarters so far. Furthermore there are 107 actions so as of now, about a quarter of those actions are approximately 70% complete and about 46% of those are 50% complete. They are being monitored quarterly by the national housing steering group.

We have a structured format in place and ultimately national disability inclusion strategy steering group meets five to six times per year. It met on 4 March and considered the latest reports from all of the local authorities and steering groups.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Does the Department get figures from each local authority on numbers of persons with disabilities who are looking for housing? Is there a breakdown on that or are they all just in social housing? As for the 107 actions, are any of those actions a tangible figure to the effect that we have housed X amount of individuals who have been looking for supported houses? Are tangible figures available?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

In terms of that breakdown, we get a summary of needs assessment, which is submitted on an annual basis. The latest figures we have are from 1 November 2022. To go through the figures, there were 4,931 households and the main need for housing support was deemed to be one of the four disabilities, as well as the category of other disabilities. Of these, 3,842 households had a specific need based on disability. Therefore 1,089 households deemed to have a disability could access standard social housing. In 2022, 2,172 households, which make up 15% of the allocations, were for people with disabilities. There is a breakdown and the number of households that qualify for social support decreased by 1,150 since the previous assessment on 17 November. One-adult households remain the majority household grouping on the waiting list. We can provide that breakdown for the committee.

Senator Erin McGreehan

That would be great.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That is a summary. It is coming through in two areas, namely, the social housing investment programme, SHIP, which is funding that local authorities get directly and through the CAS. In 2022, according to the latest figures from CAS, 112 housing units were delivered under CAS for disabled people at a cost of €16 million. A consistent statistic of 15% overall of people who got social housing in 2022 were households with disabilities. Within CAS itself, which relates to approved housing bodies, 15% of the total units delivered were for people with disabilities. We do not have the data breakdown in respect of SHIP, through which the councils get direct funding. However as of quarter 1 of this year, in terms of the quarterly reports from the local authorities, they were providing that breakdown. Historically that breakdown was not there but we are now correcting that.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Good.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee. I have done some work with him over the past few months and credit where credit is due, I believe he tries his best for people. People with disabilities come from all walks of life and how does Traveller accommodation that is not fit for purpose fit into the CAS programme to look after children with disabilities who are from the Traveller community and are under the Traveller accommodation remit? It is unfortunate that we still have segregation of the Traveller community when it comes to accommodation with local authorities. Years ago, Travellers had to go to Thomas Street and Castle Street to get social welfare payments. I remember as a young child going to the Traveller doctor that used to come into the halting site. Nowadays it is still the same with the local authorities and we are looking to change that whereby we can have a Traveller authority for Traveller accommodation.

I know that we have the Minister of State in the Traveller committee and that is a question he can come back to there but it is important to note that with refugees and the Ukrainian community also, there are people with disabilities. How are we looking after everybody? I acknowledge that it is up to each local authority to meet the needs of disabled children and children with additional needs. For me over the past number of months with this committee, what has come to my attention as a mother bringing my children to the park in Ardara is that unfortunately, there are not enough parks in our country that facilitate children who are disabled and children with additional needs such as autism.

In Ardara, County Donegal, there is no swing. A lot of children in that community have autism or other disabilities. The nearest park is in Dungloe, which is more than half an hour's drive away, where children can have access to play. I am very passionate about meeting all communities where they are and that includes children with disabilities. What obstacles are preventing us from dealing with this at a local level or in the local development plans? What is stopping us from providing that every park in the country would have facilities for children with additional needs and disabled children?

I am a member of the Traveller community and I work with members of my community and people who are disabled or have additional needs. It is hard for anybody to get rented accommodation, but if you have a disability or are from a minority group, there is an additional challenge or, as a landlord might see it, an additional problem. What is the Department doing to tackle that? As my colleague Senator McGreehan said, the cost of having a disability in this country is huge. We do not support people with disabilities very much when it comes to the private sector or buying their own home. People with disabilities live shorter lives on average than people without them do, just as members of the Traveller community live shorter lives than people from the general population, and this applies to applying for mortgages as well.

How can we future-proof the system for people who have a disability? The Minister of State has heard some of these points previously, such as those relating to footpaths and wheelie bins. I acknowledge it is the responsibility of the local authority - I get that - but the Minister of State has responsibility for the overall delivery. As I said earlier, I know that his heart is in the right place and that he wants things to be better. We do not know how long the Government is going to last, so let us be honest about the situation. The Minister of State has an opportunity to work with us as a committee to make better changes for people children with disabilities, including children. I really believe that, as a committee and with the Department, we can genuinely do that. Obviously, we need the money, given we could sit here all day and have great suggestions but it has to be invested at a local level. In the case of the local development Bill that is currently before the Houses, it is critical that we include amendments that mention people with disabilities at a local level in the context of parks and accommodation and also mention members of the Traveller community.

Some people around this table may not understand the level of bigotry and hatred that people with disabilities experience in this country. Even today, people with disabilities are seen as a problem, just as Travellers are seen as a problem, and we need to deal with that when it comes to accommodation. I do not want to go over my permitted time, but I would very much appreciate hearing the Minister of State's comments or suggestions in respect of what he is doing. I look forward to him appearing before the Traveller issues committee in the coming weeks and I hope that, before the Government is dissolved, we will have something in place that will improve the lives of people with disabilities in the context of accommodation.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I acknowledge the work the Senator and I have done together. She is a very good representative for both the Travelling community and the wider community. I might touch on a couple of themes. Obviously, I will leave the more detailed work on Traveller accommodation to the committee, but the funding significantly increased in 2023 on the previous year. One issue I wanted to see happen on a practical level was that every local authority would spend money on capital funding last year, and it was the first year that happened. I felt that was a practical measure.

Second, where Travellers are in local authority accommodation, that could come in the form of settled housing, an official halting site or whatever. If they are tenants of the local authority, there is nothing to prevent the local authority, even in the case of an existing building, from applying to the Department for funding to adapt the accommodation for people with disabilities, which it should do. That is a given. The funding is there, and if the Senator is aware of particular cases, she should tell the local authority to apply. That is something we feel strongly about.

The Senator referred to playgrounds, which are a general issue. One should always acknowledge the work of colleagues but I am conscious there are two aspects to this. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth brought forward a capital grant last year whereby they provided a grant to local authorities to ensure playgrounds would be disability friendly. I am looking at this within my Department as well. It is arising on the ground and we are all practical politicians here. Playgrounds are a huge issue and disability-friendly playgrounds are just as big an issue. It is very important.

The Senator commented on future-proofing. When I came into the Department, a national strategy for people with disabilities had been published. My area falls under housing. Work had been ongoing within the Department to come up with an implementation plan. We could have published it straightaway but I wanted to be certain it was in real time, so we did a great deal of work with officials to make it absolutely up to date. Many of the actions had started, or about 25% of them, and that is in the report. We now have a structure and we ultimately have to work off that. We have an implementation plan and a strategy up to 2026. That is being implemented through the local authorities, and within each local authority there is a housing and disability delivery group comprising the local authority’s director of services, the HSE, and representatives of people with disabilities themselves and various other organisations. They produce a quarterly report for a national implementation steering group, which is chaired by the Housing Agency. We then receive those reports and monitor them.

I have been in office for a relatively short period but this is all about discernible actions. We have 107 actions and they have all been started at some level. I want to judge this on actions. About 28 of the 107 are about 75% complete and probably a further 21 are 50% complete. We will carry out a review of the overall strategy this year and, in addition, there will be an annual report. As to how we will future-proof everything, we will keep pushing forward with the action plan, the implementation plan. We will keep ensuring we get proper data, which is why I want to get the data from the local authorities on how many people they are housing under their funding schemes. They get the funding directly from the Department through the social housing investment programme, SHIP, and, in addition, the approved housing bodies get funding under a different stream. The approved housing bodies are already giving us data on the number of people they have housed, but I want to get the data also from the local authorities.

Overall, 2,372 people, which is 15% of the overall number, were housed by local authorities and approved housing bodies last year. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, is also doing work on the 2022 Census to allow us to work off up-to-date data. It is simple. It is all about updating the strategy, driving the implementation of the plan and checking every quarter whether they are meeting targets.

Senator Eileen Flynn

The Minister of State spoke about funding for Traveller accommodation. For the record, since he took this role he has been easy to work with and, most importantly, funding has been drawn down. It is only fair to put the record straight.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

It is owing to the hard work of the officials as well.

Senator Eileen Flynn

Yes, very much so.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I was very keen that each local authority would draw down funding. We certainly worked actively with the local authorities to make certain they would. We have increased the funding. When it comes down to it, bricks and mortar are key. We would like to receive the Senator's feedback at the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community on the fact that have a caravan loan scheme.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I do not want to, because this is the Joint Committee on Disability Matters. I will say, however, that the Minister of State's feedback on parks for the children is extremely welcome.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I am doing further work on that.

Senator Eileen Flynn

I thank him for that.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I have read all the submissions. I was a bit late getting here. I was delayed on an unexpected call, unfortunately.

I am curious about the increased cost of funding, especially in the context of housing grants and so on.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is the Deputy talking about the housing adaptation grant?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Yes, for housing adaptations. Is there a plan? The Minister of State said work on a review is at an advanced stage and that he will bring forward regulations to govern the scheme. I would like to hear more about what that means for housing adaptation grants, including those for older people. The Minister of State will be aware that some local authorities implement the grants well and others do not. What improvements will the Minister of State make? The maximum amount of the grant for an extension is €30,000, which is not realistic in this day and age. I would like to hear a bit more about that matter.

I also ask about senior citizens' complexes, known as bedsits. Many of them have been mentioned by Europe as not being fit for purpose in the sense that people live in a room with a bed, a kitchen and so on. We have a large number of them, especially in Dublin. There are many in my area. Some have been adapted. Will there be more of a push in that regard?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Is the Deputy talking about private or council-owned properties?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I am talking about council properties specifically. There are some complexes where two units have been turned into one. Are there any further plans in that regard? Many people spend a great deal of time in these places, and it is not really a good environment for them. I hope the Minister of State will give me an idea as to whether anything is being done about that.

In the context of private landlords and people with disabilities who live in HAP or rental assistance scheme properties, are there any plans to look at that matter? People with disabilities have to get permission from private landlords in order to get works done. Has that been looked at or has the Minister of State come across it?

People with addictions who have disabilities are not really included as a category. Is the fact that people have mental health difficulties, addiction problems and such things ever taken into account? What is the position in this regard?

When housing allocations are made, care packages are sometimes not available. Will the Minister of State comment on the integration between health and housing and whether all local authorities have access to social workers to support integration? I would like to know a bit more about how it is handled when it is known that people need care.

On the standard for assessing medical issues in local authorities, some local authorities, such as Dublin City Council, use three doctors for an assessment; in other areas a social worker or a senior social worker does it. Is there a plan to standardise that or will that be the way it is done into the future?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I will take the points in order. The Department commissioned a review of the housing adaptation grants in the past year. The Department has looked at it in great depth. The Deputy touched on the key areas, including income and grant limits. As it stands, housing adaptation grants are available to renters. We carried out a review of all the areas the Deputy touched on. A submission was sent to the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. We are involved in detailed discussions about trying to get changes to the scheme because we are aware that there are a large number of factors are involved.

The Deputy referred to local authority housing. The three schemes are for private houses that are either rented or owned privately. In addition, local authorities can apply for a disabled persons grant, DPG. We provided a budget of €25 million. There is also an improvements works in lieu of local authority housing, IWIL scheme, which is not usually for a huge amount. Typically, it is where people who have a private house in poor condition. They can come to the IWIL scheme. I have not seen many applications in my time, but it is there. In 2023, the total expenditure of the scheme was €18.8 million. This is the scheme whereby local authorities are permitted, in the context of a delegated incentive, to commence work under the DPG scheme up to a value of €75,000. In addition to the available Exchequer funding, the local authority provides a 10% contribution in respect of the total cost. Those grants are available.

The Deputy referred to bedsits. If the local authorities want to do these upgrades, there is no reason they cannot apply to the Department for funding. There are particular schemes. Some projects may also fall under regeneration funding, as the Deputy is probably aware. There is a defined scheme for private property and one for public property as well. The Deputy may bring to me housing schemes he may be aware of if he wants me to see what is happening with the local authorities.

On the housing allocations, the structure that is being set up includes the strategy we have published and there was always a housing disability strategy group in each local authority. We have made those more defined. They are required to implement the 107 recommendations in the implementation plan I published last year. Ultimately, they are working. Part of that involves looking at the care packages. It is interagency, the HSE is part of that group. A defined process is in place, which includes the strategy and a detailed and fully up-to-date implementation plan we are keeping an eye on.

The Deputy also made reference to the recommendation. The medical disability form we all see, HMD form 1, was recommended by the Minister in bringing forward the social housing assessment statutory instrument. It provides for a variety of healthcare professionals. There is a requirement for contributions from two healthcare professionals to ensure the local authority has enough information to enable it to make informed decisions. There are also references to what happens when an applicant cannot provide relevant information and what alternatives are available to the local authority in order to satisfy itself of the situation. The Deputy is correct that different local authorities adopt different means. Some local authorities no longer accept a GP letter but instead look for a letter from a consultant. The issue falls very much within the domain of the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, but it is something of which I am conscious because I deal with the issue on a daily basis. I deal with two different local authorities, one of which accepts a letter from a GP while the other does not. It is an issue. The general approach requires contributions from two healthcare professionals but local authorities have a discretion about what they can accept. It is something we are looking at but there is a difference between local authorities. They are given a guide but if they decide to provide a variation on that, it is their decision.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

They vary so much that it can be frustrating. I also find that when people are being assessed for adaptations to their houses or anything like that-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy is talking about private houses.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I am also talking about cases involving local authorities. If people have a very good case and want to put in an extra room, there is general opposition and they are told it is not necessary. The standard has been set so high that it is quite worrying when you look at some of the cases that I have seen. The standard is being set far too high. I know of cases where people with three children with disabilities have been refused the chance to build an extra room that is absolutely necessary. That is a matter I am worried about.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

May I make an observation in that regard? Whether we are talking about a housing adaptation grant or a disabled persons grant that is being dealt with by a local authority directly, there is a process to go through. An occupational therapist is normally involved.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

That is exactly right.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

He or she comes out and carries out an assessment. As the Deputy knows well, occupational therapists look in many cases to see if a stairlift would work instead of building a downstairs bathroom. They may look to whether that would work. They go through a process. I accept that at times, to get a bedroom at the back of a house, there must be a high level of medical need. I generally find when working with the local authorities that there is an understanding. If there a real and genuine case, the argument can be made that a bedroom is required. They currently ask where the person is and establish if he or she is upstairs. They then ask if a stairlift would work. They ask if there is a toilet upstairs. One of the reasons I want to look at the housing adaptation grant scheme is to make certain it meets people's needs. The Deputy has made a point but there is a process to go through. We cannot have a situation whereby it is automatic because any service needs to be based on medical need.

Senator Tom Clonan

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee. The last time we spoke was in a different set of circumstances. I thank him for his kindness that day when he agreed to sit there. I appreciate that very much.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Senator can hold me to account today.

Senator Tom Clonan

Not at all. Deputy Ellis referred to the sign-off by GPs. Many disabled people have multiple consultants. My son, for example, has neurology and respiratory consultants. Which one would he go to for the sign-off? Does the Minister of State know what I mean? If the Minister of State is talking to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, I suggest he tells him that it should be standardised as through a GP. The GP is the person who co-ordinates all of the different-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I can do that. As a committee chair, one looks at areas. If the Senator has recommendations to make on particular areas, I ask him to make them. I deal with the issue in practice. It comes down to what letter shows the utter requirement for a service. If people are coming to you, they typically have a need. The Senator's point is taken and I will carry it back. If the committee has a recommendation to make, it would be very well received.

Senator Tom Clonan

I will turn to the overall aims and objectives of the Department. The people spoke definitively in the care referendum on Article 42B of the Constitution. The result of the referendum says to me that the Irish people recognise that disabled citizens have a right to live in their own homes, away from the birth family unit. To that end, Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities specifically sets out that disabled citizens should, on reaching the age of 18, automatically have access to a fully accessible housing unit and a care package to go with it to allow them to live independently in this State and to participate in the socioeconomic and political life of the State away from family, just as any other adult would.

I was contacted last year by a young German woman, Ms Evelyne Cynk, who was the subject of much media coverage and who lives in Schleswig-Holstein, one of the federal states of Germany. The way it works there, as it does in many European Union states, is that once you come on the radar because of a diagnosis that you have some sort of disability, you are registered with the relevant health authority. When you turn 18, the local authority, or the equivalent thereof, has a fully accessible housing unit ready for you to move into. It also very often provides a care package that applies 24-7 and 365 days per year to go with it to allow you to live independently. The Taoiseach promised he would fully ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities including the optional protocol. That would place the obligation on us. What is the time horizon for us to arrive at that situation? Perhaps that is a question for the Minister of State's officials. Does the Department have a target date for when disabled citizens in Ireland who reach the age of majority, 18 years old, will have automatic access to a fully accessible housing unit? What is the ambition in that regard?

My other question relates to a matter to which the Minister of State referred briefly. It would appear to be the case that some local authorities will consider a housing application if the person can demonstrate that he or she has a care package to make life viable in that house. This is the interoperability piece with the HSE. The housing allocation officers in some local authorities seem happy enough to assign a property to somebody and it is then up to the family to campaign and advocate for a care package. From my personal experience, I would say it should not be predicated on the HSE because it has shown itself unwilling to provide care packages for people. It is not that the HSE is unable to do so but that it is unwilling to do so. I do not think it should be at the discretion of a disability services manager whether an adult is allocated a housing unit. Does the Department have a policy on that issue? If it does not, is that something we should feed into the Department? It should be the case that a housing unit is allocated and the family then campaigns for a support package to go with it.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The national guidelines for the assessment and allocation process for social housing provision for people with disabilities come from my Department and the Senator is probably familiar with them. The guidelines state that the allocation of housing should come first.

It is all about joined-up thinking. When I came into the Department there was a housing strategy and a lot of work had been done on an implementation plan. The only thing I really wanted to do was to make certain that the plan was on point at that time. We did that. There is a huge amount of work done by the officials because the plan has to be fresh and in real time. As the housing disability strategy groups in each local authority are multi-agency, the HSE is involved. When local authorities are looking at people with disabilities and whether they are being housed, if a person has a requirement for a care package, there is an integrated model. On the question of whether local authorities should refuse to allocate on the basis that the care package is not there, the answer is "No". They should allocate based on the first point.

The Senator spoke about the Taoiseach. I cannot comment on that. All I can tell the Senator is that under our implementation plan, our approach to the objective of the strategy is to facilitate disabled people to live independently with appropriate choices and control over where, how and with whom they live to promote their inclusion in the community. This is something I was very keen on because it is an area I am familiar with and on which I have strong views in the context of people with disabilities. It will come down to individual choices. Some people will want to live with their family, in which cases we are moving into the space of the disabled person's grant and the HSE being involved. Equally, there is independent living. For me, it comes down to choice but we must have a process.

I want to get that data from the local authorities. We do not have it at the moment but we will have it from quarter 1 of this year. We have information from the approved housing bodies on the number of people with disabilities they are housing. I do not have that breakdown for local authorities but I will have it from this year. It is all about gathering empirical evidence and having a streamlined system where we implement plans. We can speak about rights, which are hugely important, but, ultimately it is about action on the ground. It is something of which we need to see a lot more. I want to see local authorities engaging more in terms of the funding available to deal with people with disabilities.

We are currently doing a review of the strategy around approved housing bodies and what they provide. That will involve the approved housing bodies. That report will be delivered to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, towards quarter 3 of this year. In summary, I cannot give the Senator a timeline on his first question.

Senator Tom Clonan

Okay.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I would be speaking in the abstract and I do not wish to do so.

Senator Tom Clonan

I thank the Minister of State. I echo what Senator Flynn said. For some reason, all the Facebook posts of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, get sent to my feed. There must be some algorithm that links northsiders together. I am aware of the work going on. I wish to put on the record that we have dealt with housing allocation officers in two different local authority areas. Once a person is in the system and makes that initial contact with them, they are very proactive in providing support. I am sorry to have to say this, but I have found them to be completely different from the HSE. They are very proactive and want to help.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The one thing we have to do is provide a framework. The implementation plan now provides a framework of 170 actions. Every quarter, each local authority is required to report on actions they have implemented. We will follow up on the action the Senator is taking in terms of care. If targets, actions and timeframes are not set, it is very difficult to measure it. It is all about increments. First, we want to ensure all local authorities are doing this and, second, we want to increase the numbers in each local authority. We cannot have a situation where there are suddenly large numbers but when we drill down we find that some local authorities are doing very little while others are doing a huge amount. It is the same in all groups. It is certainly the case in the context of Traveller accommodation. We understand where the Senator is coming from but, ultimately, it is about driving on and getting the multidisciplinary approach. It hangs on the local authorities, which chair the disability housing strategy groups. It also involves the HSE, however, and that is where the care group will come in.

Senator Tom Clonan

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. I want to home in on local authorities and their housing adaptation and mobility aid schemes. First, I give great credit to the staff of Galway County Council for the way in which they administer the schemes. The important thing is that they administer them in a way that is practical.

I understand the Department is currently finalising a review of these schemes in terms of the income thresholds and the amount of grants that may be available. One of the things that is very tough on people with disabilities is that if somebody in the house has a disability, the income of the entire household is taken into account even though the only person who will benefit from the adaptation is the person with a disability. Why can we not have a situation where it is the income of the person with a disability that is means tested? The current system often drives people over the maximum threshold, of €60,000, beyond which the person will not get a grant. When we talk about the cost of living with a disability it is important to concentrate on the person with the disability. That is the person who should be assessed in terms of both disability and income. If a sibling is living in the house as he or she cannot get his or her own house but is earning money, that is taken into account, which is totally unfair. If the Department is doing a review, I would like to see that issue addressed.

The other issue I am concerned about is that if a new house needs to be adapted for a person who has a disability, the maximum cost that is allowed towards adaptation of the house is €30,000. That amount is not anywhere near what is needed nowadays. To put on an extension consisting of a ground floor bedroom and an en suite wet room onto an existing house would cost probably three times that figure. We need to take a realistic approach to the amount of funding.

Reference has been made to construction costs and to people with a disability, who are at the heart of this. At present, the Department provides a certain amount of money and local authorities also provides funding. If the Department is increasing the amount of money it is providing, it should take into account that local authorities may not be able to afford their commitment. We need to adjust that in order to increase the level of funding to local authorities. If that is not done, we will be compounding a problem instead of solving it.

I ask the Minister of State to reply on those three points.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I thank the Deputy. As always, he gets to the heart of the matter. I will address the three issues he raised. We are very conscious in the review to ensure people who have a disability or a need are catered for in the household.

We take the point being made about looking at the people themselves. Second, we have looked at the costs involved in construction. We have a review completed and a submission on it is currently with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform and we are intensively engaging on it. What was the Deputy's final point?

Deputy Seán Canney

It was about somebody building a new house.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We take the points on board in sharing that the local authorities give 20% at the moment. We provide 80%. We are conscious of that. These are all matters we are keeping under consideration.

Deputy Seán Canney

I will not ask the Minister of State to divulge or break any confidence, but I presume those three issues have formed part of the review.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

We are fully aware of them.

Deputy Seán Canney

There will be an increased cost in delivering these grants, but it is currently with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform to get final sanction for the money.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy will appreciate, as a former Minister of State, that these discussions are sensitive. However, we are fully aware of the points he is making.

Deputy Seán Canney

It is a good scheme. I hope and pray, when the review is finished, that it is not made any more complicated for the applicants. Lots of times when people are looking for something to be done in terms of an adaptation, their mother or father is in hospital after an operation, their mobility is affected and they need to get something done fast. People do not think about these things in lots of cases until they need them. It is important for there to be flexibility. If something needs to be done to the house in an emergency, to allow somebody to come home, which is part of Sláintecare, there should be a facility to submit before and after photographs to help get the work done faster.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

First, under the existing scheme local authorities are asked to prioritise people coming home from hospital. The Deputy is probably aware of that. Second, we looked at this as part of a qualitative and quantitative review. The quantitative is funding and the qualitative is the scheme's operation. The schemes that work well are those that are more straightforward. It is something we want to keep. Local authorities on the ground are doing great work. I find, up and down the length and breadth of the country, that they are fully aware of the vulnerable groups they are dealing with and the needs of people. We want to keep the scheme as straightforward as possible.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank the Department and the Minister of State, who has engaged on this a good bit; they have always been open. We are all trying to make sure we are giving benefit where it is most needed, this committee included. I am delighted the Minister of State is present because it is important for him to hear the committee members, but I know he is doing the right job.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Committees have done great work on this.

Deputy Seán Canney

Let us hope the Department comes up with the goodies.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Good evening to the Minister of State and his officials. We hear a lot about data at this committee in the context of disabilities, and talk of poor data around disabilities for lots of reasons. However, I find it hard to understand how something can be planned for if there is no data. Senator Clonan mentioned Germany where a plan is put in place at an early age for a child identified with a disability. That does not happen across any sector in this country, and it should. Are specific targets set in the national housing strategy for how many houses will be built for disabled people? There are 1,500 people in congregated settings. There are more than 2,000 in nursing homes perhaps as a result of a stroke or an accident. There is no suitable housing for them, and that is why they end up there. We then have people living with elderly parents. I spoke to a 60-year-old woman last week. Her son is 35. She has cared for him for 35 years. He has complex disabilities. He is doubly incontinent. He needs help with feeding. She inquired two years ago with the HSE about residential care for him, and it is telling her nowhere is available locally. It should not be the case that something happens to become available. Something should be made to become available. I know that is not the local authority, but the HSE should be working with the local authority. I spoke with another mother who said her son is autistic. He is aged 26 or 27. She has been told there is a place in County Kildare. He lives in County Cavan. She does not want to cut off ties with her son. She wants him to attend his day service, see his family and that she can visit him and so on. Not creating housing in the local area is a huge issue as well. People are being offered residential places, often in an emergency situation, which is often up to two or three hours away from the locality. They are being moved from the local community, from their family and from the people they know. We need targets and we need them based on accurate data.

I have another question on local authorities. If someone applies for local authority housing, there will be a file. If I ring up my local authority and inquire about someone specifically, the staff will be able to say what the person's needs are. They need supported living, accessible housing or whatever it is. However, if I ask the housing officer how many people on their list need supported living - sheltered housing as they refer to it - or how many people need accessible housing or care packages, they do not have that figure. They literally have to go through everything. Is that being changed or addressed? We cannot have accurate targets if we do not know how many people require housing.

I turn to universal design. The NSAI is looking at a common standard for universal design. Can we have an update on that? Part M only ensures a home is wheelchair visitable, and not wheelchair livable. That needs to be updated, and I wonder where that is at. Again, if a certain percentage of homes were built to universal standard plus design, it would not only help disabled people but older people who develop mobility issues.

Approved housing bodies can access CAS funding to provide housing for disabled people, but they do not have the funding to provide the independent supports. They rely on another body or agency to do that. People are dependent on the HSE or another body to come up with those supports. It can also cause a problem and is something that needs to be addressed. The steering committees of most local authorities are working well. It is a big improvement, and I acknowledge that. It is the right way to go, but we still have a way to go because quite a lot of people require support. Are all policies and documents disability proofed? Does the Department engage with DPOs before new strategies are drawn up? By DPOs, I mean disabled people and their representative organisations, not service providers.

A lot of people have brought up housing adaptation grants, and I have one question on that. People have talked about how different local authorities differ in how they address issues and that there is a non-standardised approach. Some are very good, where there is an autistic child, in allowing the adaptation grant to be used to maybe build on an extra room as a sensory room, or where two children cannot share because one has----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Will the Deputy let me know a bit more about that?

Deputy Pauline Tully

It is the adaptive grant. It also applies to local authority housing. Do they all take into account that an additional room may be needed where there is an autistic child? That could be to provide a sensory room or quiet space. Sometimes parents tell me that a child does not sleep well, so they could not put two children in one room because one of them wakes up a lot and wakes the other. My local authority takes this into account, but I do not think all local authorities do. Can that be standardised, because we have an increasing rate of autism and it is something that needs to be looked at?

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Deputy raised a number of points. I will deal with them, but not quite in order. I turn first to disability proofing.

We do it in practice but we are developing a defined policy in the Department to put it on a firm footing. We do it but it is something we are looking to ensure is there in writing.

The work of the steering committees has been acknowledged and certainly the steering committees within each local authority. As the Deputy will be aware, if funding comes through CAS and if 100% of funding comes in, they all come off the local authority housing lists. If 95% is granted, the AHB can continue. Typically, in the main, they are virtually nearly all 100%. Regarding the support services, the steering group should be working on that. I hope our implementation plan will drive that because what we are looking at is two quarters already where we get an indication from every local authority as to the actions they have and have not implemented. If the members have any specific questions around any particular case, they should come back to us.

Regarding the national standards, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, officially under the aegis of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, has recently commenced work on a new national standard for universal design housing which will be done in collaboration with interested parties. Within our own Department, we have set out design guidelines to local authorities regarding people with disabilities. If it is apartments, as members are probably aware, we look for an additional 10% communal area above the normal allocation. The Deputy made reference to the targets. We have an overall target for housing delivery within Housing for All. Regarding disabilities in particular, it is a bottom-up approach. Each local authority has to come up with a housing delivery action plan. Within that, they base that around their needs. We have a housing needs disability assessment criteria as well. The ESRI is currently doing work for us on population trends and so forth. Within the Department, we then formulate a more updated version of that and that will feed into the housing delivery action plans as well. It is up to each local authority. The one thing we want to get back from the local authorities is that they provide us with the data on the number of people they are delivering through the SHIP scheme - those who are housed and those with disabilities - and then the summary of social housing needs for which each local authority provides. It is something we will look at. When that began in 2021, there was no requirement that it would be wheelchair-livable accommodation. We have asked them to provide that for the data coming through in 2023. The Deputy is correct. I would hope that this year we will have every structure in place to collate all the data she mentioned, so that we can basically deal with the approved housing bodies, the local authorities themselves, through our implementation plan for the national disability strategy and that with that quarterly report that is coming through from each local authority, we can drive the delivery. Back in December 2021, each local authority submitted a housing delivery action plan and it sets out the details of each local authority that has social housing over the period 2022 onwards and the reformed targets for social housing. Obviously, we will be looking at them based on the needs assessments. The big component for me is that with the supply of social housing needs, we get that data. Furthermore, regarding the delivery under the SHIP scheme by the local authorities themselves, we get to see the numbers they have housed. Then every quarter, the data comes in to us and we will see how it is being delivered. We will review the national strategy. That review will take place this year. I wanted to allow the implementation plan a period to bed down before we did the review. It comes back to the need for structure and empirical data. That is something of which we have a certain amount but I want to get more.

An Cathaoirleach

I was reminded as we started that the last time I chaired a committee meeting, the Minister of State was on this side and he was interrogating a few very high-profile individuals back in 2008, 2009 and 2010. We had a few very robust meetings.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Yes, absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

There are a few points. Ensuring Independent Living and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was one of the first reports the committee did back in March 2022, which is two years ago. Two of the recommendations, 5.6 and 5.7, were about the housing adaptation grants. One of those referred to a situation when somebody from decongregated settings or who had additional needs, acquired or otherwise, was moving in with family and they looked for a grant to provide the proper facilities for that member. The first thing that would be done is that the household income would be taken into account and then the family would get no grant. We asked for that to be looked at. We also submitted it in a number of the pre-budget submissions that the committee made in 2022 and 2023 because we saw the challenges that were faced. That certainly came up in the committee.

The Minister in his opening statement referred to the €220 million available under the CAS programme for 2023. Was all that money spent? The issue we see is that some of the applications submitted by service providers were made. Then they had to go to the local authority, the Department and then the HSE for approval and then they would not draw down the funding. There is another issue. It is policy from the Department, and also from some of the service providers for people with disabilities and approved housing bodies as well, to encourage people to get on the social housing list because that would be a mechanism to get CAS funding. Recently, we had some detailed discussions with a family I was representing with one of the service providers. As a way of accessing funding to provide accommodation for their family member, they were encouraged by the service providers to get on the social housing list first and then they would be able to access funding. However, when they applied to the social housing body, the local authority, to get on the social housing list, they were refused social housing because they had been paying no rent in the previous 12 months. They had been living in sheltered accommodation. Due to pressures and so on, they went back to the family member. The family was then encouraged to go on the social housing list and we thought it was a formality. However, the local authority has come back and refused the application because-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Were they in private accommodation?

An Cathaoirleach

No, they were not in private accommodation.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Were the parents in rented accommodation?

An Cathaoirleach

No, the parents were in their own family home. This person is over 40 years of age.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

This person came to live with the parents.

An Cathaoirleach

They did, because the service provider could not provide accommodation.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Who did you apply to the local authority for?

An Cathaoirleach

We applied to the local authority before Christmas and-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

For whom?

An Cathaoirleach

For the adult themselves. The person with a disability applied in December 2023 and they were turned down.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Why were they turned down?

An Cathaoirleach

The exact reason was because the person was said to not have rented privately for six months or longer and also that no details were submitted to outline the supports that would allow the person to live independently. A social worker's report was provided by the service providers in the application but what was written in the correspondence was that the person had not rented privately for six months.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

When the Chair inquired, was that a specific housing policy of the local authority concerned?

An Cathaoirleach

The advice I got, as recently as last Friday, was that the local authority would have to liaise with the Department. I outlined the reasons and went back to the appeals body within the local authority. We had been given every encouragement, as an awful lot of people with disabilities are, to go on the housing list, because that is a mechanism for the service provider to access capital assistance funding for either building or buying a house and accessing funding for it. This was the most recent information. To be honest, I was completely taken aback by it because I thought it was almost a formality that it was done. I can forward to the Minister of State-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

The Cathaoirleach might allow us to follow up. The person has a need, is of a more mature age, 40 years, and a decision has been taken on the basis that because that person was not paying rent, he or she could not be deemed to have shown an application for independent living.

An Cathaoirleach

Correct.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

That goes back to Senator Clonan's point. The local authority's decision should be based on the need of the person for housing. If supports are required, the local authority should follow with that. Will the Chair forward the details to us? We will follow up on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I will. That case is fundamental to a lot of what we do at the committee and many of the recommendations we made in the report in respect of ensuring independent living.

The other issue raised by our Vice Chairperson was that of decongregation.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Sorry, I did not address that. My apologies.

An Cathaoirleach

The policy of new beginnings and all of that has been well documented. It has been in place for a decade or more. There are huge challenges, however, for approved housing bodies, which are sometimes the service providers. When they look for accommodation or money for accommodation, there are challenges along the way, including HIQA reports, and all the other documentation the statutory bodies have to do. It is not as simple as the policy dictates. It is important recognition is taken of that.

The other matter is the limitations of the grants. A number of members raised the issue of the level of funding seriously needing to be looked at in terms of budgets going forward. To address Deputy Ellis's point on a local authority house that needs adaptation for the tenant in it, when somebody comes to us with information and we find out it relates to a local authority house, we gasp because it is more difficult. The Minister of State said that the local authority should apply to the Department for funding-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Local authorities are allocated funding in the normal way. Obviously, it will be allocated. If there are particular cases that are a huge priority, it is up to local authorities to make a business case to our Department on an issue. That is a fundamental tenet. To take the capital assistance scheme, CAS, there was an additional allocation of approximately €140 million last year. It ended up that €220 million was spent. That €220 million is the actual spending figure rather than an allocation figure. It is much higher.

We gave approximately €8 million extra for housing adaptation grants last year. Once again, to go back to the local authorities, they put in their applications. When I hear situations whereby it is said that it is just about what the local authorities get, they should make the business case. I had this with vacant homes officers in Cork. Ultimately, when it comes down to it, local authorities should make the business case. Every situation should be based on that. I am very practical as regards this issue; people should get local authorities to make the business case. I ask the Cathaoirleach to allow us follow up on the case about independent living he referenced.

An Cathaoirleach

I will make one other point. The disabled person's grant-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

Which one is the Cathaoirleach talking about?

An Cathaoirleach

The standard disabled person's grant-----

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

For a private house.

An Cathaoirleach

For a private house. To categorise it, for a stairlift in that house. It is the disabled person's grant. It is the grant for the person with a disability. On the comments I made, if somebody with a disability due to a stroke or car accident moves in with a son or daughter or whatever, and the income of the son or daughter is way over the limit, the next thing is they cannot accommodate the person and it is back to the State to provide care. It should be that the grant should follow the person with the disability. As part of the Department's discussion on strategy and budgets, it should be ensured that the funding is allocated to the person with the disability, even though the house owner might be a different person. The house owner is undertaking that the person with a disability will live in his or her house and he or she will look after that person's needs. If we are to have a fully rights-based society for people with disabilities, it is important we ensure that the grant follows the person with the disability. It is something that is really worth looking at.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

I will address the points the Cathaoirleach raised. We are conscious, in the context of the review and the increase in income over the period, that the last review was in 2014. We are conscious of the increase in costs and the basis on which these are being assessed. We want to ensure that we meet the needs of people who are disabled. We put a very strong case to the Department of public expenditure and reform and have done a significant body of work on this. We know exactly where the Cathaoirleach is coming from. In summary, I very much take the Cathaoirleach's point on income and costs, and looking to get the grant to the people who require it. If situations arise concerning particular, very individual cases, especially around the disabled person's grant to local authorities, people should get those local authorities to make a business case to the Department. Not every local authority looked for additional funding for the housing adaptation grants but for those that did, we provided it. That is very important.

I very much take on board and welcome the input of the committee. We take the core point on independent living made by the Cathaoirleach, Senator Clonan, Deputy Tully and other members.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State. I also thank Mr. O'Sullivan and Ms Naughton for their indulgence.

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell

My apologies. I will give an update on congregated settings. The committee will appreciate that the core policy in this area comes from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Action A9.1 in its Action Plan for Disability Services 2024-2026 states, "Provide for 500 residential places 2024-2026 to advance decongregation programme in line with requirements of Article 19 UNCRPD", with the deliverable to be "500 residential places to advance decongregation". Action A10.1 states that the "HSE will establish a dedicated Project Implementation Team to work with residents, CHOs, service providers, ... [our own Department], local authorities and Approved Housing Bodies to accelerate decongregation". We will provide funding for that programme through CAS. We stand ready to provide the funding based on the actions in the plan.

We fully accept that it is Government policy to move people away from congregated settings. We appreciate that large numbers are still in those settings. Decongregation is a core action of the Department with primary responsibility for it, but we provide the funding for housing to enable people to move to independent living. We stand ready to support that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State, Ms Naughton and Mr. O'Sullivan for their indulgence, our members for their help and commitment, and the team for all the work they do behind the scenes.

We will have a private meeting at 5 p.m. next Wednesday. Our next public meeting will be on Monday, 8 April at 11 a.m. in the Seanad Chamber.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.09 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Monday, 8 April 2024.