Vol. 1 No. 15
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, and her officials who are in attendance to assist the committee in its consideration of the proposal that Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann approve the following draft order: Employment Equality Act 1998 (section 12) (Church of Ireland College of Education) Order 2003.
I invite the Minister of State to make her presentation and introduce her officials.
I thank the Chairman and the members for the invitation to address the committee with the specific purpose of seeking resolutions from the Dáil and Seanad approving the draft order which is to reserve 32 places in the first year of the bachelor of education degree course in the Church of Ireland College of Education, Rathmines, for students who are members of the Church of Ireland or who belong to the broad Protestant tradition.
The making of the order and its laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas arises from the provisions of the Employment Equality Act 1998 and is designed to ensure that the rights and interests of the college and schools with a Protestant ethos and the students in those schools are provided for.
The Employment Equality Act 1998 prohibits discrimination on a wide range of grounds, including religion. While the Act deals primarily with discrimination in employment, it also extends to discrimination in vocational training. Vocational training is defined as any system of instruction that enables a person to acquire the knowledge for the carrying on of an occupational activity. Teacher training obviously falls within this definition.
For many years, probably since its foundation, the Church of Ireland College of Education has provided training in primary school teaching exclusively to students who come from the Church of Ireland and the broader Protestant tradition. The purpose of this practice is to ensure that there is available to schools under Protestant ownership a sufficient number of teachers who themselves come from a Protestant background and are trained in an institution with a Protestant ethos. Most primary schools in the State are privately owned, publicly funded, denominational schools. This system of denominational education is underpinned by the Constitution. Collateral to the rights of the religious denominations to conduct schools with a particular ethos is their right to ensure that there is available to them a corps of staff belonging to and trained in the particular religious denomination of the school. If such staff were not available, the constitutional rights to free profession of religion and the conduct of denominational schools would be seriously impaired.
To avoid imposing what would in effect be unconstitutional restrictions on the right of denominations in this regard, section 12 of the Employment Equality Act 1998 which prohibits discrimination in vocational training makes two exceptions. It provides that for the purpose of ensuring the availability of nurses to hospitals and teachers to primary schools which have a denominational character and in order to maintain the religious ethos of the hospital and schools, the prohibition of discrimination does not apply in certain circumstances.
In the case of primary schools, the section provides that an education or training body may apply to the Minister for Education and Science for an order permitting the body to reserve places on the vocational training course. The Minister, with the consent of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, may then make an order allowing the body to reserve such number of places to meet the needs for teachers in primary schools as is considered appropriate.
The Church of Ireland College of Education has made an application on behalf of the college for the reservation of 32 places in the college for the academic year 2003 to 2004, up to 2007 to 2008, for students who are members of recognised churches in the Protestant tradition, essentially in this instance, the Church of Ireland, the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church. The college makes the case that the reservation of 32 places, which is at present the full complement of the first year places in the college and is the maximum number of first year students that can be accommodated in the college, should be made in order to provide sufficient teachers for Protestant schools over the next number of years.
The grounds for the request as put forward by the college are as follows: a substantial volume of correspondence from individual schools and boards of management to the Church of Ireland Board of Education regarding the difficulties in obtaining qualified applications for vacant teaching posts; an increasing number of retirements, teachers on secondment or availing of job-sharing and career breaks as well as an increase in the number of posts for learning support and other specialist teachers; an analysis of college records relating to the age profile of teachers in the Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Methodist primary schools, indicates that a significant number of serving teachers will reach optional or compulsory retirement age in the next five years. It is estimated that in the five year period from 2003 to 2008, a total of 114 teachers will become eligible for early retirement or will reach compulsory retirement age.
The joint committee went into private session at 11.32 a.m. and resumed in public session at11.33 a.m.
Some of those who enter the college will not complete their studies and of those who qualify some will not take up posts in schools with a Protestant ethos or may not teach at all. An analysis of the employment status of recent graduates of the Church of Ireland College of Education suggests that 75% are employed in Church of Ireland schools; a further 18% are employed elsewhere and 6% of those admitted failed to complete a course.
The recommendation of the working group on primary pre-service teacher education is that the bachelor of education degree course be extended from three to five years. If implemented, such an extension would result in a nil output of graduates in a particular year. The Minister for Education and Science believes that in the circumstances set out by the college, the reservation of 32 places in the college for students from the Protestant tradition appears reasonable in order to ensure Protestant schools have available to them sufficient teachers who share their value and belief systems.
It is proposed that the order now to be made will continue in force for the next five academic years. The Minister is satisfied that it is unlikely within that period that circumstances will materially change either for the college or for the schools which it serves. In the fifth year of the order it is proposed that this be reviewed again and that the Oireachtas be given a further opportunity to consider the matter at that stage.
Apart from the constitutional requirements from which this order flows, the order is a necessary support to the maintenance of diversity of values, beliefs and culture in our education system and in Irish society. Given that schools with a Protestant ethos represent only a small minority of primary schools in the State, there is clearly a risk that that ethos could be greatly diluted unless specific protections are provided. This order puts in place a protection, which the Oireachtas considered appropriate and which will guarantee Protestant schools that they can continue to provide education for their students in accordance with their particular values and beliefs. I hope this will be supported by the members of the committee.
I welcome the Minister and her officials. I have no difficulty with the order before us, which raises a broader question about the operation of schools and the ethos within schools. I respect the right of any group to teach its tradition and the right of parents to send their children to those schools. In this instance I respect the right of the Church of Ireland to reserve these places. However, what does the Minister intend doing for people with a different ethos? Obviously, the Catholic ethos is well looked after, but it is different for other religions. Our society is becoming more diverse and there are more denominations. Does the Minister have any plans to provide for that?
As the Minister of State may be aware, Educate Together will appear before the committee next week. It is looking to set up schools in an entirely different way and to teach religion as a subject covering all religions rather than any particular denomination. What changes to structures, if any, will be introduced to provide for teacher training on that basis as distinct from the traditional teacher training that existed?
I accept there is a lack of teachers from the Protestant tradition qualifying. However, this is merely part of a broader problem in that we are only now making up for lost time because insufficient teachers have qualified in the recent past. Has any progress been made in negotiations between the Department of Education and Science and the teacher training colleges on providing on a modular basis what is incorrectly called the conversion course to allow secondary school teachers become primary teachers? I have raised this question on a number of occasions. I believe providing this will alleviate considerable pressure within the system. At the moment we are taking teachers with some qualification, albeit secondary, out of primary schools to complete this course in St. Patrick's College or elsewhere. If this was provided on a modular basis teachers with some teaching experience could stay in the primary sector and complete the course during the school holidays.
The Minister of State said that 18% of those graduating are employed elsewhere. Does this mean within the teaching system?
Yes.
The figure of 6% who fail to complete the course is not high when compared to many of the universities and institutes of technology. Has there been any examination of that? The Minister of State may be aware of calls by teachers' unions concerning the teaching of religion in schools. Will the Minister meet the teachers' unions to discuss how it is intended to teach religion in schools in the future?
I join Deputy Enright in welcoming the Minister of State and her officials. I welcome this necessary order. We have a responsibility to preserve all the traditions in the State. Deputy Enright highlighted valid points about how the times change and we have moved into a multicultural society. The latest census figures show the greatest change in religious denominations was the increase in those of the Muslim faith. Given the changes taking place in Irish society, over the next 20 to 30 years will we be funding schools for all these different denominations and supporting the training of their teachers?
Educate Together, which will appear before us next week, makes a case to have a common curriculum for schools and to treat the religious aspect independently. When we live in an era of huge costs associated with the building of schools and the supply of teachers, we must be careful not to commit ourselves to a plan of action now that will in the long-term cause us greater difficulties. Has the Department done any analysis or is there a policy that looks to the funding of schools and teachers in the future?
Has the time come for us to take religion as a separate issue? I have no difficulty with having religious educators and funding their training. I had a Catholic education; I have one son in a Catholic school and one son in a Protestant school. I welcome the fact that our education system is becoming multicultural. It is good for young people to see diversity and difference.
I welcome the introduction of this order. While 32 places will be reserved, how many places in total are provided each year in the Church of Ireland College of Education? It is important to recognise that we are moving into an era of cultural diversity and richness of culture. We need to look at ways to enable different groups to preserve their own culture and identity. We also must ensure that no form of racism is tolerated. We must use every method we can to send out that signal. All of us across party lines should condemn those who use a racist argument or methodology especially to advance their political careers. I have no doubt all of us, in all parties, would condemn such activity and would not tolerate it under any circumstances. People should observe such a pledge, both in practice and in spirit. We should not hesitate to distance ourselves from the comments of any politician seeking election who tries to use an argument based on difference, perceived or otherwise, between cultures, peoples, races, religions, sexual orientation or whatever basis. Political parties should immediately demand retraction of any such expressions. Some people are very adept at raising issues in a manner which gains cheap publicity and popularity. I also call on the media to be careful about giving publicity to anybody who tries to use racism for their own ends, including electoral gain.
Ireland is currently moving into an era of greater cultural richness. At a reception in Dublin Castle last night in connection with the Special Olympics, the richness of cultural diversity created a wonderful atmosphere of friendliness, acceptance and sharing. I welcome any order which brings people together and enables us to know each other better, while still preserving tradition, as this order does. As my colleagues have mentioned, there are many other denominations and religions involved, as well as people with no religion. I realise that the various churches or other bodies are obliged, under the order, to make a request, rather than our taking any pre-emptive action, as in this instance.
How widely known is this provision? Has it been made known to all denominations and others who may wish to avail of it, or is that possible?
I welcome the Minister of State to this meeting. There is a very high Protestant population in my constituency, Dún Laoghaire and there are several primary schools of the Church of Ireland and other traditions in that area. Accordingly, I am aware of certain shortages in such areas. The State may not have excelled itself in the protection of our minority religion, in which there has been a decline in numbers for various reasons. It is encouraging that, at the beginning of this century, the Government has a proactive attitude towards addressing that decline. Education is a vitally important cultural launch pad and, accordingly, this order is most welcome. I have certain views on the Employment Equality Act, particularly the exclusions aspect, but that is probably not appropriate today.
I join in welcoming the Minister of State. I welcome the decision to lay the order before the Houses in relation to the reservation of places in the Church of Ireland College of Education. Like other speakers, I warmly welcome and support efforts and measures to ensure that the necessary issues will be taken to preserve and offer support for the safeguarding of an ethos which is diminishing but still has its rightful place in our society. I note that it is intended to review the situation after the initial five year period to determine what additional measures, if any, need to be taken on an interim basis. I commend that approach.
As I believe every Irish person should, I welcome the enrichment of our culture, in all its aspects, by the additional cultures which are now becoming part of Irish society. I fully agree that Irish people should show tolerance towards that multiplicity of culture and its enriching influence. Some 1,000 years ago, my Norman ancestors came to this country and, we are told, became more Irish than the Irish themselves. If that is any indication, there should be a far greater and deeper enrichment and cross-fertilisation of cultures in modern, more enlightened times. As others have said, there is no better forum or catalyst for promoting tolerance, understanding and enlightenment than that provided by education. I warmly welcome this initiative by the Minister of State; I am sure it will be one of many initiatives in that regard.
I understand there are problems in attracting male primary school trainees and teachers. It seems to be a predominantly female profession, which can have implications in terms of role modelling where boys are concerned, especially those from single parent, mother only families. Perhaps that is an issue which the Minister of State will address at some opportune stage.
On a matter more immediately relevant to the current order, I understand there are some problems with regard to recognition of foreign qualifications in the case of teachers trained in Britain or Northern Ireland in particular. Evidently, there is some delay in dealing with such applications and, perhaps, the Minister of State, in due course, might look at that situation with a view to resolving it.
Whereas it is laudable and positive to work towards maintaining and enhancing traditions, there are also advantages in having structures to facilitate intermingling between people from different traditions. I am not sure whether this is an issue which the Minister of State is in a position to address. I know it is a fairly serious issue in Northern Ireland, where the argument is made that multi-denominational education would enable children from different cultures and religious backgrounds to get to know each other better and become more tolerant. Whereas it is important to maintain tradition, there is also a need to intermingle and get to know each other in a positive light. I wonder if any consideration has been given, in this jurisdiction, to endeavouring to fulfil both of those aspirations. Perhaps it is an issue for another day.
I thank all members of the committee for their input to this meeting. They have shown great interest and concern in relation to this issue. As many speakers have stated during this discussion, we now have an opportunity of a more diverse culture than ever before. This is evident to anyone who walks into any national school in the country where one will find a number of children from different cultural and religious backgrounds, which, I agree, enriches the community.
We all welcome, or should welcome, difference and diversity. The best possible way to address a closed mindset is through education. While it is important to have legislation on racism, which we do, because it sets down certain parameters in law, it is even more important that individuals set these parameters for themselves. This can only be done if people are given the opportunity to learn about differences in a proper setting, which is obviously the education system, notably the primary sector because it reaches children of a young age.
Deputy Stanton asked the number of places filled on an annual basis. From the 2003-04 academic year until the 2007-08 academic year, 32 places will be filled, which will lead to a consistent turnover of 32 graduates per year.
Is 32 the full complement of places available in the college each year?
Yes, the Department has been advised that this number would be sufficient and necessary to address all the issues I raised. We are advised by the Church of Ireland College of Education that 32 would be an appropriate number and we hope to facilitate its request.
I was unsure as to the number of available places. Perhaps 50 places were available, of which just 32 had been reserved. I am satisfied with the Minister of State's reply.
That clarifies the question on the number of places.
The Deputy also mentioned the problem of racism on which I agree with him. The way to address racism is through education. Given our rapidly changing society, its growing multiculturalism must be reflected in the education system. We have had a bottom-up approach to this issue, for example, through the Educate Together schools. Ensuring that other cultures and languages are incorporated and respected in the system will become increasingly important in the coming years. This has already been recognised, certainly with regard to refugees for whom the Department has laid on special courses through various bodies to ensure they receive help, in particular with regard to linguistic skills as English may not be their mother tongue. This ensures they have an opportunity to participate in society quickly.
The curriculum will also need to evolve to reflect the kind of changes taking place. I agree we must ensure that the rights of other cultures and religions are taken into account. The best approach to addressing this may be through the overall system, rather than trying to ghettoise in any way certain sections of the community, and by reaching a consensus as we evolve as a society. This will be reflected in our teacher training colleges and the curriculum available to our young people.
Deputy Enright asked what happened to the 18% of graduates from the college who are not employed in Church of Ireland schools. The teachers in question work in other schools, including Catholic schools. As Deputies will note, the bulk of those who train and qualify - 75% - teach in Church of Ireland schools or Methodist or Presbyterian schools.
Deputy Enright also asked about the possibility of offering post-primary teachers conversion courses in primary teaching on a modular basis. This is currently under active consideration in the Department and a decision is expected soon.
With regard to the curriculum, a module on dealing with racial diversity is included in the current curriculum in teacher training colleges, which indicates an early recognition of the need to reflect diversity in society generally. This will continue to evolve and develop.
There is vote in the House. As the Order of Business is over, it must be on legislation. Do members wish formally to complete the proceedings now rather than return after the vote? The Minister has already responded to most of the questions.
This morning in the Chamber an issue was raised regarding a motion passed here last week and whether a separate report should have submitted to the House. I understand no ruling was made on the matter. What is the position?
I wish to ask the Minister of State a brief question. Given that we are reserving 32 places in the college and a number of the teachers who qualify from it will not go on to teach in Church of Ireland or other Protestant schools - they could end up in Catholic schools - should we not demand a quid pro quo in the interests of equality? We are reserving places for a particular reason. Should we not have a quid pro quo by which, for example, those who receive a place give a commitment to teach in Protestant schools for a five or ten year period? It is theoretically possible that we could train 32 people, none of whom would end up in a Protestant school.
That could well be the position. As I stated, 18% of teachers qualifying from the college do not teach in Protestant schools and a further 6% do not finish the course. We did not pluck the figure of 32 from the air. The Church of Ireland community has advised the Department that for the reasons I have already outlined this figure would be required. One cannot compel a person from any tradition or religion to serve a certain number of years in the system if he or she decides to become a primary school teacher. The freedom of choice must remain.
