JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 Feb 2004

Europass Framework Presentations.

Chairman

Today's meeting has been convened to discuss COM (2003) 796, a proposal for a decision of the European Parliament and Council for a single framework for the transparency of qualifications and competencies called Europass, forwarded to the committee by the Sub-committee on EU Scrutiny. The Irish Presidency will seek political agreement by the Education Council meeting on 27 May 2004. On behalf of the members of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Margaret Kelly, principal officer in the post-primary section, and her colleague, Mr. Seán Harkin, from the Department of Education and Science, Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, chief executive officer, and his colleague, Ms Valerie Beatty, from the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland.

Before I begin, I remind our visiting delegation that, while the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I understand that the two groups have asked to make a joint presentation.

Ms Margaret Kelly

We have circulated a short summary of the contents of the longer, 30-page document from the Commission. Essentially, the Irish Presidency is seeking approval for a decision to implement a single framework for the transparency of qualifications and competencies. When I say "transparency", I mean better information for citizens, better co-ordination and better marketing. That framework does not, of itself, confer recognition on qualifications. It simply provides for tools and extra information to assist people in the process of recognising qualifications. The Irish Presidency aims to bring that to fruition. Consultations are already under way through the Joint Committee on Education and Science, and it is planned to get preliminary feedback from the Education Council of Ministers in February. The plan is that it then go to Parliament for interaction and consultation over March and April. It is hoped that the measure will be signed off as part of the co-decision process before the European Parliament dissolves at the end of April for the European elections.

This measure has been in the pipeline for quite some time. Many of the documents at issue have been developed through pilot projects going back as far as 1999 and 2000. There has been wide consultation on the process in various EU fora and working groups with education, training and vocational providers, social partners and directors in higher and vocational education and training. It has been on the go for quite a while. The decision seeks to bring about three things, the first being to promote the use of five documents set out in the brief. Those five will form a portfolio in a co-ordinated way so that one will have better information for employers and citizens regarding the value of individual qualifications.

I will not go into detail on the five documents now, but there is a European CV which can be downloaded and completed. There is a diploma supplement with additional information to go with a higher education award. It provides additional background information on the content of the qualification. There is a diploma supplement. The diploma is for higher education, but the certificate supplement is for vocational education and training, but the focus is similar, providing background information on the learning outcomes associated with that qualification. There is also a European language portfolio, which is essentially information that one completes on a self-assessment basis. It shows one's history of learning in the language area and one's proficiency levels based on self-assessment and the criteria that have already been developed under the European framework of reference levels for languages. The last piece of documentation is a mobile pass. That is information on a learning pathway which one might have taken as part of a formal European exchange programme. It provides information on the skills and competencies that one has learnt as part of that.

The decision seeks the implementation of those five documents and wishes all member states to promote them; it is voluntary for citizens to do so. The second part is to examine how information co-ordination takes place in order that we can market all those five documents better under the brand name of Europass. In that process, it is suggested that there be a Europass national agency in each member state and that it bring together what has been happening through national reference points - there is one in each country - and the European network of information centres, or ENIC and the national academic recognition information centres, or NARIC. All those existing bodies will be co-ordinated under one Europass national agency.

The third point is to seek Commission approval for development phase funding. The sum of €4 million is being sought for 2006-06 to support development in individual member states and its evaluation and technical support at European level. This is a sub-set of a European agenda which originated in the Lisbon Council in 2000 where the key goal was that everybody should work together strategically to make Europe the most advanced and competitive knowledge society by the end of 2010. Mobility of workers and qualifications is seen as a key part of that competitive process as it has a key role to play in addressing unemployment black spots, skill gaps and improving quality and mobility of people, which will enable firms to better target new marketing niches etc. It is just one of the arms of an overall strategy to make Europe more competitive.

Transparency does not imply recognition. There are other ongoing agendas on other fronts within the European Community. There is a consolidated directive currently being negotiated on the mutual recognition of qualifications. There is other work taking place in various forums to achieve convergence in higher educational qualifications. Further on, there is the hope that we will eventually have a European framework of levels of qualification and that it will eventually result in education and training being treated as a unified whole. That is the agenda, but we are a long way from implementation, which is a cultural change for a lot of the member states. However, in Ireland we already have a national qualifications framework. We have a representative from the national qualifications authority to explain that.

There are a number of different strands to this, of which Europass is one. It is all aimed at contributing to mobility and competitiveness.

Mr. Ó Seán Foghlú

I thank the committee for inviting us to the discussion of this proposal. We were here a few months ago introducing the national framework of qualifications to the committee which we found very helpful and we are delighted to be back to discuss the Europass proposal.

We have been working very closely with both the Department of Education and Science, whose representatives are here, and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment at European level. There are two main processes under way at European level which we have been engaged in. One is the Bologna process on higher education which Ms Kelly has referred to, and the second is the Copenhagen process on vocational education and training. Both of these processes have had a parallel development and are about increasing the comparability and compatibility of qualifications to improve the mobility of learners and of workers within the labour market across Europe while having guarantees of quality assurance. Both of the processes have different start up points and are at different rates of change and have different ways of being co-ordinated, but they are running parallel.

One of the main inputs that we have had, which has been strongly endorsed and advanced by the two Departments, has been to ensure that there is concurrence with the policy objectives in the two processes and, where there are initiatives being taken in either of the two processes or elsewhere, that they are brought together in a coherent way. That is why the Europass development is exciting, as it is the first example of having five transparency instruments, which were all developed in different ways by different groups of people under the aegis of different international organisations, coming together in a coherent package in the shape of this Europass proposal. As well as that, it links the qualifications and competencies associated with outcomes of learning with the labour market in terms of the CV and the Europass and mobility pass. That is an important development as it makes it relevant. It does not go the whole way as there are a lot of other developments to come regarding recognition, which takes time to work through. I am sure we will have the opportunity to discuss those to a greater extent this morning. We found this very important.

In the implementation of these five existing instruments there are eight or nine different agencies and organisations involved and they are outlined in the note. They range from FÁS to our universities and institutes of technology and involve a large number of agencies. The approach that the two Departments have taken is that they want us in the qualifications authority to start co-ordinating these developments, possibly through the Europass, and also to co-ordinate the recognition of international awards. For that reason they have asked us to take on responsibility for the two co-ordinating points on information on awards and qualifications in recognition that it is the national reference point for vocational qualifications and the national academic recognition information centre for higher educational qualifications. We see this as being part of a general policy thrust to help make it easier for citizens, whether in Ireland or internationally, to have an easier transferability and understanding in entering employment and seeking transfers to other learning opportunities throughout Europe.

In our membership of the Copenhagen implementation committee, which is where this proposal came from, there is a sub-group which looked at transparency instruments. It looked at the need to bring together the existing instruments. It has advanced from that point and is now with the Education Council and the European Parliament. It is a good way forward. Parallel to that, the two Departments have facilitated discussions at national level involving all of those who are involved in implementing the various transparency instruments. There was a meeting in December, hosted by the Department, where there was strong support from the national agencies for this development and the improvements that it would bring in making the transparency instruments real for people over time. They are very supportive of these developments.

The likely timescale, if it is all proceeded with, is that it will be adopted this year, hopefully, and we can then move on to implementation in Ireland towards the end of this year and next year. I stress that as the national framework for qualifications is a long-term project this is also a long-term project that will take time to come about, but it will be a big step in improving communication on what is happening across Europe in learning and entrance to the labour market, which are two very important issues.

Deputy Andrews

I welcome the delegation to the committee. This seems to have originated in the Lisbon idea of competitiveness and trying to improve standards in Europe under that particular agenda of the European Union, this being a small sub-set of it.

What are our options as a committee in scrutinising European Union legislation? I do not recall doing it before in the Joint Committee on Education and Science. Perhaps the Chairman or someone else could explain what our options are as a committee, whether we can scupper this completely or are we just a rubber stamp today?

Chairman

We are entitled to make observations and pass them on to the Minister and the Department. We have dealt with one previously in the lifetime of the committee, have we not? I refer to the Green Paper.

Deputy Andrews

It is very important that the public knows what we are doing here, not that there is anybody paying any attention to it. Let us be clear about what we are doing and what our powers are and what the purpose of European scrutiny is. There is a problem with the nature of bureaucracy and legislation from Europe and how it affects people, whether it affects them all and whether this is necessary.

One of the big problems the Lisbon Agenda addresses is bureaucracy. None of this is clearly obligatory, nor is it suggested in any of the presentations that in order to apply for something one must use these particular things. I do not like to see barriers to entry as opposed to the facilitation of entry to the market for jobs.

In general, I have no difficulties with this concept. What do the witnesses feel is the timescale for the implementation of these measures and how do they see them benefiting Ireland? What difficulties have Irish applicants experienced in other countries? It would be very useful for public procurement to have something like these common documents.

Deputy Enright

I welcome the delegations. I intended to ask what sort of quality controls exist. I am now clearer that it is not about recognition and I do not know whether the question is relevant. Ms Kelly mentioned that it is a tool to assist. Is it designed to assist the employee, the employer, or the education part of it? Is it simply recognition of vocational education training qualifications from the Europass side or will it encompass other university qualifications?

On their website, they discuss the huge differences among the national training systems, stating that this measure is to be decentralised to each country and that anyone seeking information should go to a point of contact in their own country rather than elsewhere because it could be slightly different in each country. There is a possibility that it could be different in each country but is the idea not that it should be common in each country and exactly the same?

On the enlargement of the EU, is it envisaged that all 25 countries would be operating this more or less at the same time?

Deputy O’Sullivan

I welcome the two delegations. My question comes from the viewpoint of someone who is attempting to use it in a proactive way. Take the case of a young electrician from Ireland who wants to work in northern Italy. Would that electrician have a Europass giving information about his or her qualification as an electrician and have information about whatever exchange programmes to other European countries he or she had been on? Would it include the study of languages to leaving certificate and perhaps subsequent night classes? How does the person use it? With all of that information gathered together, will it mean something to the employer in northern Italy? Is that the way it is meant to work for a person who wishes to work in another European country?

Are languages a barrier? While English is one of the recognised major languages, are there difficulties in using some of the lesser known languages? Are there common languages that will be used?

On the Europass national agency in each state, is that envisaged as a totally independent agency or would it be under the Department of Education and Science? What is the format of that agency? It is a very good idea but my concern is to ensure that people who need the information should get it. The document states that it would be disseminated through education, through FÁS. I would like information on how the value of this will be fed out to the individual who might want to use it.

Senator Minihan

I welcome the delegations and thank them for their presentations. The area of quality control is what I will hone in on. I am somewhat confused about it. The principle is fantastic but questions arise over the application of that principle. From an employer's perspective, is someone qualified on a Europass who has a correspondence diploma or degree in psychology or medicine? I am concerned about that standardisation of qualifications. Can an employer pick up a Europass and be satisfied that the qualifications as listed would meet the criteria to employ that person to work to the standard of our own graduates? Having gone to all this trouble, we may end up with a Europass that employers will dismiss because we have not gone the final leg.

The other area I wish to raise is that of recognition of standards of qualification. Even in Ireland, employers advertise seeking certain qualifications. Not only do they specify qualifications sought but they specify the actual university they prefer. This is particularly the case in pharmacy, an area I am familiar with. One will often see an advertisement in the newspapers specifying that Trinity graduates are sought, as distinct from a graduate from the UK. There are implications as to why a pharmacy owner would look for a Trinity graduate.

I am concerned about the Europass, whether I am looking for an electrician, a psychologist or a teacher. How do we have mutual recognition of qualifications that are acceptable and meet a common standard?

I do not wish to be negative about this, as I feel it is a fantastic idea. It will make things easier. Previous speakers have honed in on the area of quality control and I would like the delegation to elaborate on that.

Deputy Hoctor

I thank the deputation. My question is linked to that of Senator Minihan. It concerns the Irish language examination currently taken by teachers qualified abroad who wish to teach in Ireland. How will the objectives of today's discussion influence the outcome of that review concerning that particular examination, which will be due out this coming autumn? We are aware that teachers who wish to teach in this country are not barred by any means because of the absence of the Irish language in any of their qualifications. To become a permanent teacher, they must have a competency in the language. Where will qualifications, which are unique to each European country, be brought in? Where do we get that balance? Senator Minihan's questions also pointed in this direction.

Deputy Enright

Senator Minihan spoke about recognition of qualifications. Can the delegation explain the difference between that and this? Would the recognition of qualifications not have to run hand in hand before this proceeds? Ms Kelly discussed citizens using this. Is there any sense that employers themselves could make it obligatory that those whom they employed would have to have a Europass? Is this something employers can decide they wish to do themselves?

The information given to us has been very factual. I ask the delegations, the Department, and the National Qualification Authority of Ireland, if they have concerns about the implementation of this which we should address?

Ms Kelly

One of the first questions was about the timescale. This is voluntary for citizens and the developmental phase is over the period 2005-06. In Ireland, a lot of work has taken place already but not so much at the marketing end of the development. It is planned, for instance, that the diploma supplement in higher education will be in use in third level colleges from 2005 on. FETAC plans to implement the certificate supplement on a phased basis from 2005 to 2006 and on an ongoing basis thereafter. All the awards councils are matching up their awards and adapting them as necessary to fit within the new framework of levels of qualification announced last October. That process is under way between education and training providers and the awards council and is being phased in until 2006.

A five year transition phase was built in to the Qualifications (Education and Training) Act 1999. Therefore, the framework will not be fully implemented until 2006. The new framework will be implemented for different awards under FETAC and will apply the certificate supplement for the new awards coming on stream over 2005-06.

The other member states will not necessarily move at the same pace because this is voluntary. They have all signed up to the principle but the accession countries in particular may be at different stages in the overall process and will probably come on line at different stages. Even when fully implemented it will take time for the framework to gain currency as usage builds up.

The common framework makes it easier to translate but it is envisaged that the documents will be produced in the language of one's home member state. One may ask the authorities to produce it in one other language but any subsequent translations are at one's own expense.

We did not see this as a new agency; it is hypothetical because the decision has not been adopted. Assuming it is adopted, the intent is that the National Qualifications Authority will be the co-ordinating point. It already covers the national reference point for vocational qualifications, the national academic recognition information centre and qualifications. All the other key agencies will have a role to play too. Education and training providers, higher education institutions, guidance services and FÁS must be involved if this is to be effective, and the NQAI must pull those strands together and get the system moving on all fronts in a co-ordinated manner.

The Europass is not a quality system but as part of the Bologna and Copenhagen processes vocational education and training systems and higher education systems across the EU are committed to improving their quality processes. The Community does not have jurisdiction over education, so everything that happens must be through peer pressure and be of a voluntary nature. Member states have signed up to the Bologna and Copenhagen processes to focus on improving quality and building up trust in one another's systems. One does that by signing on to common principles, approaches, peer review, development of indicators.

There are several EU fora but Ireland is the current host for an international network of quality assurance agencies across higher education. Here we have the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the two awards councils and a framework of levels of qualification based on achievement of learning outcomes. External evaluation, moderation of assessment etc., are built in as part of the quality tools. Similar developments are under way in other member states, not all at the same level but the focus of Bologna and Copenhagen is to encourage member states to move in the same direction at their own pace towards the same result.

Pharmacy is a regulated profession under the EU directives and I would like to see examples of the advertisement to which Senator Minihan referred because I would follow it up. It is illegal. One cannot insist on a specific qualification, one must accept equivalences.

Senator Minihan

I own a pharmacy and I am accustomed to these advertisements. One in three seeking a pharmacist will specify a qualification from Trinity College because if the pharmacy is less than three years old a non-Irish graduate cannot provide professional cover due to the derogation. I am not trying to open up the pharmacy argument. I was using this as an example of how in Ireland in one profession we even specify the university from which graduates must come. How does this balance up in the European context?

Ms Kelly

We have that derogation for pharmacies under three years old but as a principle of the qualifications directive if one refers to the Trinity qualification one must add "or equivalent", except for that derogation.

Senator Minihan

There is no equivalent.

Ms Kelly

The purpose of mutual recognition of qualifications which applies only to regulated professions is that one must accept equivalent qualifications.

Senator Minihan

There is no equivalent. Now there is a school of pharmacy in the Royal College of Surgeons and one in Cork of which there are no graduates because the students are in their first year. To date there has been no equivalent; it has been Trinity College and nothing else.

Ms Kelly

That explains it. The regulated professions include engineering in many but not all countries. For example, someone with an Italian engineering qualification could not get a job in Spain without having specialised in coastal and canal work. The advantage of the diploma supplement to ensure that an employer can see the broad areas of content one has studied. It is an example of how more information on the content of the qualification can hasten the recognition process.

The mutual recognition process applies to regulated professions, of which there are only 25 in Ireland. Across the EU several directives have appeared in the past divided into two broad categories: sectoral, for pharmacists, doctors, nurses, midwives, vets etc., and general. Under the sectoral directives it has been negotiated at European level that particular qualifications meet the minimum conditions necessary for recognition. There is a list of qualifications approved in the different countries and recognition is automatic if one has a listed qualification. The general system tries to marry two processes: to further recognition while accepting the principle that each member state has the jurisdiction and subsidiarity to make its own decisions on the content of its education and training. If they are comparable and equivalent, the qualification can be recognised. If it is one step below and only a small piece missing, an aptitude test or adaptation period can be applied. If a significant difference is recognised which cannot be made up through an aptitude test or a compensation period, it does not have to be recognised.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

I started working in the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland three years ago. I had to go to European meetings and it took me a year to work out all the different committees and who was doing what. I still find it complex because committees still pop up that I have never heard of with various responsibilities and roles. It makes this whole area complex to explain.

These developments come down to a simple fact. With regard to qualifications, there is transparency, recognition and quality. Those are the three key dimensions. Add all these together and mobility is improved in different ways.

Quality is dealt with in vocational education by the Copenhagen process and higher education in the Bologna process. The aim is that each different member state should have its own systems of quality assurance that guarantee the outcomes. There have been no calls for any international agency to sign off on any of this, which would be against the policy approach. Various networks and support services have been set up, but the overall approach is to keep it within member states. Transparency and recognition have been developing at the same time but there are differences between the two. Transparency is about explaining the system as simply as possible so that everybody can understand what the qualification entails and what knowledge and skills an aspirant employee has when seeking employment. Recognition is stronger than this, in that it states that it is agreed that the qualification or award is equivalent to another member state's qualification system. There are two particular purposes behind recognition: for employment or for entry to further learning opportunities.

Europass would be very helpful for recognition. However, this is not the key way we are going in recognition. The key way, in my view, is to have regard for the complexities for these general directives. I have heard it said in Brussels that if we were to have a general directive for every employment sector or field of learning, it would take a hundred years to complete them and by that time they would all be irrelevant. The aim is to go to a higher level above that and to get out of the detailed recognition agreements.

That is where the idea of qualification frameworks and levels of qualifications come in. The Bologna process is about this with its three cycles. There is a first cycle for degrees, a second for masters and a third for doctorates. Parallel to this, we are doing the same for vocational education and training.

The problem is that across Europe there are not even general understandings. The nearest to this is the idea of craft, school leaving, intermediate and completion of primary education awards. In the last six months, the European Commission has started to press strongly for the idea of having a single overarching framework of qualifications for Europe to improve transferability. It is not in any way to control systems, but at least that each national system could relate to the international one and improve mobility. In many cases, it is not necessary to know the details to have a detailed professional recognition agreement. What is really needed is a guarantee that when one gets an award in one country, it can relatively fit into another country's system in a general way. This would ensure that the individual in question can be identified at degree or school-leaving level. One can also be satisfied that the award, whether it is from Cyprus or the Czech Republic, is of sufficient standing.

This approach requires national systems to kick in on quality. If it is an award following a correspondence course, such as the Open University in the UK, then in a country without external checks it will be known that the award was signed off by the UK quality assurance agency.

We are trying to push the boat out first on transparency because the easiest thing to do is to get as much information as is available. Two instruments are being planned. One is the diploma supplement that Ms Margaret Kelly mentioned. In higher education, all Ministers for higher education have given a commitment to implement this by 2005. There are 40 countries in the Bologna process. This means that anyone getting a higher education award will have a background document stating the outcomes associated with the award, the award's name and where it fits in the national system. This will be a big advantage. Parallel to this, in the vocational education and training sector, there will be a certificate supplement stating what the award means and how the certificate fits in the national system.

These two developments will happen over time with the 2005 commitment for the diploma supplement. Already in discussions, some countries have said it is too ambitious but at least it will have started in every country. In Ireland, the Minister for Education and Science will be announcing the first awarding of the diploma supplements next week in Letterkenny. There is a big development with a number of pilot implementations under way. In a short time, many of our higher education institutions' awards will come with diploma supplements.

The diploma and certificate supplements are happening. That is the easy bit. Once they start coming out, people will ask to see the certificates and that is where they will become relevant. Prospective employers will ask to see the supplements to have the system explained to them. This then links in with the common curriculum vitae, which will set out what qualifications an individual has and, if that is fitted into the Europass, the diploma and certificate supplements will have to be included.

This will enhance the use of the curriculum vitae. The aim of the common curriculum vitae is to have them written in a similar way across Europe as far as possible and in a voluntary way. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment was involved in the discussions on the common curriculum vitae with FÁS, the employment agency, which co-ordinated its implementation. The key factor is that it links into various education and training initiatives in order that they all come out together in a composite way.

Two other elements in the Europass are the other two transparency elements already there. From a European dimension, it is important to show that one has a competency with a modern European language, which is where the idea of a European language element comes into this portfolio. It has begun to be piloted in Ireland in school awards for language competencies, particularly at senior cycle. There are also pilot projects under way for language competency in primary schools. However, this is at an early stage and there is a need to spread it out more because language learning is much more than just schooling.

The one element that has been used for very many years is the Europass MobiliPass. This is where an individual can have their work experience abroad certified. It is not an assessment of the work experience, simply a certification. FÁS has run with this scheme for many years on an international basis. It has been surveyed and analysed. The name Europass was previously associated with the scheme but it was thought such a good name that the whole scheme is now called Europass. This resulted in the original scheme being changed to Europass MobiliPass. This has caused some dissension among the former Europass users but that is neither here nor there.

That is the thrust of the scheme. It will take time to work through. We all recognise that there are difficulties with recognition and we cannot wait for all these overarching developments to take place. The NQAI is working with various awarding bodies and social partners to develop a better national policy approach to the recognition of international awards outside of the professional EU directives which are working away and cannot be changed. We are trying to link it into the framework and get to the stage that there can be better understanding of the relative positioning of awards. The first place where we need to do that is on the island of Ireland. The next relates to this island and Great Britain. We are working with the authorities there in an effort to map the different qualifications in a general way against each other, so that one knows for example what a NV2, level 4, in the UK may be equivalent to in Ireland. That sort of over-arching effect is needed in recognition.

Sometimes, but not always, one might need something more specific. For example, in a few years' time, if one has a craftsperson in a certain area where there is no detailed recognition agreement, trying to get a job in Ireland or Italy, for example, that person should carry a Europass, which at the very least would have a certificate supplement with that person's craft award, to show what the outcomes associated with that craft award were and where that award fits into its own national system.

The person should also lay out the CV in a common way when presenting. That would make it easier and communicable. It will not get over all the barriers because there will always be cultural and other barriers and it will take time to overcome them. That is why this is exciting. It is another step to facilitate the increased movement of people within Europe which has been so positive for Irish learning in recent years. We have had the great experience of people coming in to Irish learning and indeed into the labour market internationally, as well as going the other way for short or long periods of time. This will facilitate that development even more.

Chairman

Article 9 sets out the establishment of the member states' national agency. It was mentioned that the Ministers will make an agreement in 2005, but there does not appear to be a timeframe. It seems that an individual state could effectively stymie or use Europe to stymie the intention of workers to either come or leave. It looks as though Europe has not accepted important standard documentation within a relatively short time, either by not providing it to their own citizens or not accepting it from others. Is there a possibility that there is room for delay in setting up this agency, and consequently stymieing the attempts of people to move? There do not seem to be any dates on the article itself. It refers on occasion to other annexes and articles to which we do not have access, so the dates might be on those. Some of them go back to 1975, 1990 and to various other dates.

Ms Kelly

It says each member state "shall" designate. The timescale is not there but the word "shall" implies an obligation. It has to be done at some stage. The draft date for the decision coming into force is January 2005, but the whole thing is voluntary, and the Commission does not have jurisdiction over education. It is however putting money up front for the technical developments in each member state. Therefore, it will be very difficult to get out of the commitment. One cannot say one has not got the money, because the Commission is, in effect, providing money. I do not anticipate that this will be a problem.

Chairman

Are there any further questions? Is nobody bold enough to ask whether Irish is one of the languages which feature in the annexe relating to languages? Presumably it can feature.

Ms Kelly

It can, though I suppose the question of portability will arise.

Chairman

Most of the emails I get are from Barcelona, or certainly from outside Ireland.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

It is relevant not just to international mobility but to national mobility too. The issue and use of the diploma supplement in Irish is relevant to someone entering employment in Ireland through the medium of Irish.

Chairman

Someone who has got qualifications five or 25 years ago will not have these ancillary documents. Will they be entitled to get them?

Mr. Ó Foghlú

Not immediately. These are documents that award the diploma and certificate supplements available to holders of previous awards. One of the things we are trying to do in the national framework of qualifications is to ensure it is not just about awards for the future, but that all awards made, those continuing to be made against the previous standards and awards made in the past are placed in the framework in order that their use can be clearly communicated. The CV usage with a focus on outcomes and knowledge skill and competence is very relevant and would be of assistance to people with awards they have attained in the past. Again, this is a long-term project.

Chairman

Thank you all very much. At this stage we can allow the guests to leave as the committee must briefly consider the matter further. Thank you very much for your help. This has been very interesting, with many developments in that area. I presume we will get further information from the relevant body regarding Letterkenny and the awarding of the diploma supplements, as referred to by Mr. Ó Foghlú.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

We can arrange that for the committee.

Chairman

Is it the Higher Education and Training Awards Council that would be involved?

Mr. Ó Foghlú

It would be the Minister. The Department will communicate regarding the implementation of the diploma supplements.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.45 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 26 February 2004.