We are back in public session. From the State Examinations Commission, I welcome Ms Andrea Feeney, CEO, Ms Elaine Sheridan, head of examinations and assessment and Mr. Richard Dolan, head of operations. The officials are here to brief the committee on issues relating to the 2022 junior cycle examinations results. I will invite Ms Feeney to make a brief opening statement, to be followed by questions from members.
Junior Cycle Examination Results 2022: State Examinations Commission
Ms Andrea Feeney
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend to provide a briefing on the 2022 junior cycle examination results. The successful delivery of the examinations annually depends on a broad coalition which includes school managers and leaders; teachers, including retired teachers, who are fulfilling critical roles; and the education stakeholders. The SEC recently announced Wednesday, 23 November as junior cycle results day. We acknowledge that candidates and their families may be disappointed that the date is later than might have been expected.
We hope to provide the committee with details of what is behind the delay in issuing results and of the efforts made, in collaboration with stakeholders, to address the most significant issue, which is a shortage of teachers to mark the examinations. This meant that marking in all subjects was not completed during the normal summer marking window. The results of the leaving certificate issued on 2 September, with the appeals issued five weeks later on 4 October. The deferred leaving certificate ran until 16 July for candidates who missed their examinations due to bereavement, serious illness or Covid-19. Additional time was also needed to give effect to the commitment that the results on aggregate would be no lower than in 2021, which was achieved through a post-marking adjustment.
The later leaving certificate results issue date has had an impact on the junior cycle timeline. Changes to the leaving certificate appeals timeline in 2019 saw an October date for the junior cycle results for the first time, by agreement of all of the stakeholders. This year, if the marking had been completed, the junior cycle results would have been due to issue to candidates at the end of October.
Turning to the issue of examiner supply, pre-pandemic, the SEC had been experiencing significant difficulties in attracting, recruiting and retaining sufficient numbers of teachers to undertake this vital work. Up to and including 2019, it was necessary to put in place a range of remedial measures to complete the marking within expected timeframes. The challenges we are faced with are evident from the statistics; the SEC traditionally recruited 4,000 examiners to mark the written examinations. This year, fewer than 3,000 examiners marked the work of 130,000 candidates. Allied to demographic increases, candidate numbers are 12% more than they were ten years ago. The number of examiners involved in marking the examinations is almost 19% lower than it was ten years ago. Junior cycle candidate numbers have increased by 5% since 2019, while the number of examiners has decreased by 30% this year. With the support of stakeholders, the SEC has made repeated and extensive efforts to recruit examiners in sufficient numbers for the 2022 examinations. These efforts included online advertising and marketing to teachers and schools including in teacher union publications; appeals to principals to take on a leadership role in encouraging and supporting this work; appeals to subject associations and support services such as the professional development service for teachers, PDST, and junior cycle for teachers, JCT and thousands of direct telephone calls and emails to teachers who had examined previously. Significant increases to payment rates were approved in recognition of the co-operation, flexibility and support needed. Leaving certificate rates increased by between 17% and 50% per script, while junior cycle rates increased by between 48% and 57% per script marked. A recruitment campaign called "Earn, learn and understand" highlighted the many professional and financial benefits of this work.
Despite these efforts, the numbers fell short and a range of interventions was needed to complete the marking of most subjects during the summer, which included marking well beyond the normal marking window and examiners agreeing to take on additional scripts. These measures, while necessary, put pressure on the examining teams and contribute to a poor examiner experience and impact retention. Unfortunately, it was not possible to complete the marking in all subjects. Further contingency arrangements have been made to ensure that the marking will be completed in the coming weeks. Unlike in the summer marking period, most of the teachers now marking are in schools during the day and only available at evenings and weekends.
The commission has an absolute responsibility to examination candidates to ensure that their work is marked to the highest standards of quality and integrity. Over the past three years, due to the circumstances created by the pandemic, delivery of the State examinations has been extremely challenging with many changes required to ensure delivery of the service. The ending of Covid-19 restrictions and the return to examinations as normal have exacerbated an issue which existed before the pandemic, one which challenges the management and completion of the marking and the ability of the SEC to issue the results. The SEC is extremely grateful for the co-operation it receives from thousands of teachers each year to undertake critical work in the State examinations, noting that this is voluntary, subsidiary employment which teachers undertake during their school holidays.
Recruitment and retention of teachers as examiners is not only a whole of organisation issue for the SEC, it is a major and urgent whole of system issue at second level. Addressing the issue requires regular engagement with key stakeholders and the active support and involvement of all the players, especially school management and teachers' unions, as well as the continued support of the Department of Education which has already provided improved examiner rates. The SEC will be reviewing with stakeholders how best to ensure the availability of teachers in the required numbers to engage in this critical work in the future. Our objective is to substantially increase the number of teachers involved so that the experience is a positive one which greatly enhances teacher professional competence as well as earning power.
On a positive note, the rate increases which were introduced on a once-off basis in 2022 have now been assured for 2023 with the assignment of an additional €11 million on budget day to maintain these increased examiners' pay rates.
My colleagues and I are happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.
I want to confirm that we did not receive the opening statement last night. It is unfortunate for members not be able to look at the opening statement in advance in order to prepare questions to the witnesses.
Ms Andrea Feeney
To be clear, it was sent. Perhaps we can look at the email after the meeting to understand what happened.
It definitely was not received. I will defend the committee secretariat because this has not happened before. I just wanted to make the point.
It can be sent now. Can someone in Ms Feeney's team email it now please?
This is probably highly irregular and old fashioned but I wonder if Ms Feeney will circulate the paper she read from if she does not have additional notes on it.
Ms Andrea Feeney
I am happy to.
I am happy to carry on without it but if we have a piece of paper it is no harm for it to go around. The other members might want to read the statement while I am asking questions.
As a result of the situation, can Ms Feeney repeat some details? I think she said it was the pressure of the number of papers and so on that caused a negative experience. Did I understand that correctly? What did she ascribe the negative experience to?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The fact fewer teachers are involved in marking the work than are actually necessary to complete the work in the time allowed. That means we ask the examiners we do have to take on more scripts to mark. They have to agree to take on those scripts but we ask them to take on more scripts to mark than might have been the case up to a number of years ago.
Ms Andrea Feeney
Our vision for the future is that we would have more teachers involved and that they would be able to complete the work in the normal marking timeframe without the intense pressure to get scripts marked because of the sheer numbers.
Unfortunately it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation, similar to how one might attract nurses into a healthcare system that is on the point of collapse. Their experience of it is bad. More nurses are needed to improve it and, somewhat like that, we have a circular situation here as far as I can see.
While it is welcome that we have a date now for the junior cycle results, the delay is unfortunate. Stress and anxiety are involved for all students. There are material considerations for two categories of student that occur to me - those who are starting fifth year and are trying to make decisions about what subjects to take and what level they will study them at; and those who are leaving school to do apprenticeships. Will Ms Feeney comment on the latter case, including whether the SEC has direct engagement with students in that situation about how their qualifications are being credited? I appreciate the SEC cannot do the miracle of the loaves and fishes and only so many people are available. It is unfortunate. Clearly we need to make this more attractive as it is obviously not attractive enough. Ms Feeney mentioned increased rates of pay. Has the SEC directly engaged with the two teachers' unions to examine whether any additional measures could be considered? For example, will the public pay deal have an impact on it if that is approved?
Are there other things such as additional leave or other incentives? I have a further question but will Ms Feeney respond to that much first?
Ms Andrea Feeney
On the junior cycle results and the adult learners and early school leavers who might need these results for onward employment or apprenticeships, which was the first part of Deputy Ó Laoghaire's question, he will recall in 2020 and 2021 the junior cycle examinations did not run as normal. Later examinations were held for adult learners and early school leavers. They were held in November with the results issuing in February. Arrangements were made through SOLAS in order that those students could progress in the absence of their results. We have been in contact with SOLAS to see if a similar arrangement can be put in place for this year. That is a work in progress at the moment. In regard to further engagement with both teacher unions, yes the examinations over the past number of years build on a strong relationship that the SEC had with stakeholders including the teacher unions and the school management representative bodies. We have engaged through the advisory group on examinations planning and in bilateral meetings with the stakeholders just before Covid-19 and during Covid-19 and on these particular issues over the past year. We have had much support from the teacher unions in terms of encouraging and supporting the campaigns that the SEC has put in place such as advertising in the teacher union magazines and directly reaching out to branch representatives on behalf of the State examinations system to try and increase the numbers getting involved. In regard to the other measures that need to be put in place, the rates are quite significantly enhanced this year. That has had an impact. There are other factors in play. It has recently been announced that there will be a comprehensive review of the factors underpinning issues with supply of teachers to undertake these critical roles with the State examinations. We need to look at all of the factors in collaboration not only with the stakeholders but also in direct engagement with teachers to ask them what are the disincentives, what might assist them in making the decision to undertake this vital work with the SEC.
This could continue. The challenges could continue if generally speaking we have something of a challenge in the next few years in regard to ensuring that the leaving certificate has adequate integrity which I believe it has. That could continue while we ensure that forthcoming cohorts doing the leaving certificate are not disadvantaged compared with the others. I have spoken to people in secondary schools and they talk about, to use that dreadful phrase, "a soft landing", in regard to the adjustments that might have to be made. Can Ms Feeney give an account in that regard? Will the complications with regard to how long it takes to deliver the results continue if the State examination continually needs to incrementally adjust the curve? Is that something that we can anticipate? Is the intention to incrementally adjust the curve to what it was heretofore?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The results of the leaving certificate over the past three years have been substantially different from what would have been the case up to 2019 because in 2020 we had calculated grades and in 2021 we had the combination of accredited grades and examinations. We had a return to examinations this year but with a post-marking adjustment in order to ensure that the results on the aggregate were no lower than they were in 2021. What the Minister has said in regard to 2023 is that there will be no cliff-edge in terms of a return to previous years. We take from that there will be some form of an incremental change but the final decisions on the shape of what 2023 will look like have not been taken at this point in time.
Specific to the timing issue, is it something that we can foresee that, if there are additional course-marking adjustments it could potentially contribute to further delays in the leaving certificate results?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Without saying whether there will be a delay there is a reality that if there is a post-marking adjustment of any description it requires additional time after the marking. This year while we were able to do a significant amount of initial exploration and analysis of how we would impact on the grade profile in 2022 the final decisions could not be taken until all of the marking was done because we needed the real data coming through from the marking process in order to evaluate what had come through from the marking and what adjustment was necessary at that point in time. There is no doubt that time is needed after that process. There may be things we can look at in terms of processes for future years.
If there is to be an intervention subsequent to marking, it presupposes that all the marking is finished before that adjustment can happen.
It is a pity that we have only received this now. I understand, I hope, that it is going to be rectified. I thank Ms Feeney, Mr. Dolan and Ms Sheridan who are before the committee today from the SEC. Does the SEC report to the Department of Education? I know it sits differently under the Minister. Does it report directly to the Minister for Education?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We are an aegis body of the Department of Education.
So it is part of the Department of Education but stands separate.
Ms Andrea Feeney
We are established under our own statutory instrument so we are an agency of the Department.
It is a separate agency.
Ms Andrea Feeney
Yes.
It has been challenging for the last year or two. The SEC came with the figures around the increase in the number of students and the decrease in the number of examiners. Each year that there is a decrease in examiners, the experience of the examiners gets only more difficult, making it more challenging year-on-year to get new examiners in. Where I come from, there was a leaving certificate student who, due to the timing of the leaving certificate results, was not able to access a place in a UK university. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has been working with the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, UCAS, on some of those issues. That is a huge challenge in general for students accessing places. That student has now taken a year out and will, I hope, be able to apply and be eligible - because they are eligible - for a place in that university. That was due to the timelines we have here. That is an issue.
The SEC has multiple steps and is looking at incentives. What are the qualifications for examiners? What are the qualifications for an examiner for junior certificate, leaving certificate, applied and mainstream programmes? What is the future? If we are dealing with more students and getting fewer examiners, what is the role of digitalisation within the State Examinations Commission? What is the SEC looking at in terms of automating some processes? How is the SEC looking at it for students in terms of doing their exams? Is there a way to streamline? Has a budget been allocated? We have seen the largest budget ever in education, some €9.6 billion. How much of that goes to the State Examinations Commission? Will the witnesses tell the committee what budget has been allocated? How much has been allocated for future development and digital strategies to support how we are going to manage this in the future? If the SEC is having challenges and we cannot open up the pool of teachers to do the examination process, how are we going to streamline and accelerate digitalisation to support the elements which can be digitalised? I understand there are elements that cannot be. Surely, there is a way to streamline processes to support the capacity challenges we have at the moment, using technology to support that.
Ms Andrea Feeney
I thank the Senator for her questions. In a moment, I will ask my colleague Ms Sheridan, our head of examinations and assessment division, to deal with the teacher qualifications and questions on the examiner supply. Our budget and allocation for 2022 is €77.395 million. In a normal year, we would collect an additional €10 million in fees, but there are no fees for the examinations this year. On technology and what we have done, the figures we shared are quite stark as regards the increase in candidates and the more than matching decrease in the number of examiners. We have invested in digitisation of the examinations over the last number of years. Some 410,000 results were issued this year at leaving certificate level. Of those, 389,000 were either fully or partially marked using our online marking system. There is no doubt that the online marking system and that transition to online marking has assisted us in managing the challenge of a decreased examiner supply. It makes the experience of examining much more straightforward and streamlined for the teachers involved. That is one aspect of digitisation.
We made continuous improvements across all of our services in the last number of years with greater use of our candidate self-service portal. We also have a school portal for the transaction of electronic and digital course work from schools to the SEC. All of those things have greatly enhanced our capacity and efficiency as an organisation. Given what we as an organisation have been asked to do over the past number of years with the considerable changes each year since 2019 due to the pandemic, we have responded in an agile fashion to meet those challenges. On what the future will hold in relation to senior cycle reform, there is a mandate within the senior cycle reform announcement to look at opportunities for digital assessment.
We already have an element of digital assessment in computer science, digital course work as I mentioned, and computer-aided design that is used for design and communications graphics coursework. It is not that there is nothing, but certainly more work can be done.
We have had some engagement with international jurisdictions as to what they do and how they manage the challenge of e-assessment. Do we see a time when all students will sit down in June and do their examinations online? We are somewhat away from that, but certainly as part of the research that is needed into senior cycle reform, we can envisage some changes into the future.
I ask my colleague Ms Sheridan to deal with the question on teacher qualifications.
Ms Elaine Sheridan
Examiners are appointed on the basis of the information they provide on their application forms. Generally, a degree or qualification in the specific subject and a qualification in education are the minimum requirements, but on top of that we also look at whether they have relevant experience of teaching the subject or a related discipline or teaching that subject in another jurisdiction. We publish our criteria for the appointment of examiners on our website. It is transparent and open. All of those details are set out on the website.
It depends on the nature of the subject. If a new specification or subject is introduced at leaving certificate level or in the junior cycle, we may not have a specific qualification in that subject but we look at and review the application in the context of what other relevant information is provided. The key issue, as Ms Feeney mentioned earlier, is that we were prioritising the leaving certificate examinations this year. They are the appointments we make first. We take all our application forms and fill our teams at leaving certificate level first. We then work to fill our junior cycle teams and assign our most experienced examiners to mark the leaving certificate examinations.
If we are not getting the examiners, and in fact there has been a 30% decrease, and teachers are not being attracted into taking on the examiner role, what will we do? How will the SEC increase capacity? Where else can we look to bring in people with relevant qualifications who can do this job?
Ms Elaine Sheridan
We are working through that with the various stakeholders. We are liaising with third level, postgraduate teacher qualification courses. We have links with various concurrent degrees, for example, so recently qualified teachers are a pool we can tap into.
Is it layered? The SEC looks at the application. The paper comes in. Is there any assistant examiner position? I would love to know, perhaps not now but another time, how that online marking system works. Where is the digitisation coming in for a junior certificate paper from beginning to end? What is the roll-out of that? Is there an assistant person who could look at the papers initially and then a senior examiner with a different set of qualifications who could look at them? Is there such a role? Can anything be done to speed this up?
Ms Elaine Sheridan
The move to online marking in terms of digitisation of our marking system has been significant in delivering results in a timely fashion, as much as we can with the examiners we have and delivering a high quality. The benefit of online marking is its instant nature. In respect of what the Senator is describing, we can provide more immediate and direct support to new and inexperienced examiners through the online marking system. We are not waiting for hard copy material to move in the post. That is where it will become a much more positive experience for examiners who come in. It is having a positive impact on retention. We are rolling it out on a phased basis. The reporting on the examiner experience since our proof of concept and our pilot in 2017 has been phenomenal. It has all been positive.
Why is it going down?
Ms Andrea Feeney
There is a step change in the numbers this year. We need to be conscious of the impact the Covid-19 pandemic has had and of a pent-up demand in the summer of 2022, when teachers could go on holidays for the first time since 2019 and made the choice to do so. That context needs to be borne in mind, but there are things we need to do.
The other thing we have going into 2023 is certainty from the initial part of the recruitment process about the rates of payment. A decision was taken in budget 2023 about the money that will be provided and be available next year which empowers us from the beginning to be able to advertise the pay side of the equation. The other side of the equation is the experience and what it brings to a teacher. We highlight to teachers the professional benefits of engaging in work with or marking the State examinations for their knowledge of their subject.
It is also useful in terms of what they can bring back to the classroom in terms of their professional practice.
I will have to cut the Senator off there and call Deputy Conway-Walsh.
I thank the witnesses for their presentation. I am very concerned about students who are going directly into the leaving certificate cycle without knowing what their results are, which has an impact in terms of choices. As has been said, we obviously have an ongoing issue in terms of late results, which reduces students' ability to take up opportunities across the island and in Britain. This is not something that has just happened. It is something that has been there all of the time. What efforts have been made to bridge that gap so people have their results on time, and how come other countries can do it and we cannot?
Ms Andrea Feeney
I think the example Senator Dolan gave was in relation to a particular student, but generally the timeline for the release of the results this year tied in to the UCAS process. My understanding is the UCAS cut-off was 7 September. The date of issue of the leaving certificate results was 2 September. There were some individual cases highlighted to the Department. I know colleagues in the Department of Education and the Department for further and higher education engaged with their counterparts in the UK to ensure students could take up those places.
One of the biggest problems we have in terms of having all-island student mobility is the equivalence of the results but also not getting the results on time. What efforts have been made in recent years to have the results provided in a more timely manner, or are we always stuck with 15 August or around that time in terms of leaving certificate results?
Ms Andrea Feeney
It would be nice to get back to 15 August from my perspective, given where we have come from.
Yes, but it is a problem and a challenge we need to sort out together. Are the witnesses looking at any way the results can be brought forward so we do not have to wait until after others have released their results?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Looking at other jurisdictions and how quickly results are available, there is an element of comparing apples and oranges. They do things differently in those jurisdictions. I know the comparison is usually made with France, where results usually issue in July, but a lot of the examinations on which those results are based are held in March. A very small number are held in June, but most of them are held in March, in springtime, so things are done differently. Within those jurisdictions, particularly France, marking examinations is part of the teaching contract. It is something examiners as teachers do, not every year, but they rotate and have an obligation to do it every three years. It is done differently, so I think we need to look long term at our processes. If I think back to 2019, which was the last time results issued in the middle of August, it is an extremely tight timeline, even at that. Getting results out from the end of June, when the examinations finish, to the middle of August was exceptionally challenging, even up to 2019.
If we had enough markers in the system, and had the supply side sorted out, would it be achievable that we could have results earlier.than normal in this State?
Ms Andrea Feeney
I do not know about earlier than normal, but certainly to a normal timeline would help. However, we need to think about what happened this year. There was a deferred series of examinations and all of us agreed it was a very positive move for candidates to have a further opportunity to sit an examination if they missed that because of bereavement or serious illness, and this year because of Covid. That has a consequence. Those examinations did not finish until 16 July.
I get all that and I have a very limited amount of time. When did the Department start recruiting for examiners last year?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We started recruiting for examiners in January and February 2022. In a normal year that would have started in early January instead.
Has the commission started recruiting for next year?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We have already started our recruitment for 2023. The 2023 examinations have already started. We are holding our first marking conference next week. Home economics examiners are going to be marking at leaving certificate, and their conference is next week.
We have also started the recruitment of our practical, task and oral examiners for the leaving certificate applied. We will be advertising shortly for the recruitment of our oral and practical examiners, and from then we will move into our examiners and our superintendents. That process is under way.
Okay, so that should solve the problem for next year and we will have enough markers in terms of early recruitment and the incentives that are offered.
Ms Andrea Feeney
With respect, there is a bigger system issue that needs to looked at in terms of solving the problem. It is not a problem that I or my colleagues can actually solve. As the State Examinations Commission, we need the assistance and the co-operation of all of the stakeholders acting in concert to encourage teachers to undertake this work. It is very strong to have the increased rates we have, but the numbers are not there. There is a whole-of-system issue. It is not a simple operational or logistical challenge that the SEC can solve, unfortunately.
Who is accountable for pulling that all together to make sure it is solved?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Again, there is this whole-of-system effort that is required to address this issue. There is an SEC role and we need to lead out on that. We will be undertaking a review, along with stakeholders in the education system, to review all of the issues that are behind this challenge to address it for future years.
Have we measured at all what impact the introduction of the digital measures has had ?
Ms Andrea Feeney
While it is not a measurement in terms of a formal review or measurement, my colleague Ms Sheridan has mentioned the feedback we have had from the examiners. For some examiners currently marking on paper, they have a very different experience. They are dealing with physical scripts. They have a lot of physical administration and paperwork to do. That is not there and we would love the opportunity, if Senator Dolan is interested, to show what the online marking system looks like from cradle to grave, essentially, from when we receive a script to a result issuing at the end. It is a very different and a much better experience for the examiners involved.
That is the future. Maybe that will address some of the other problems I was talking about. It has been identified as an issue right across the third level sector in terms of the accessibility of opportunities across the island. I would very much like if that could be looked at as well.
Ms Andrea Feeney
We will certainly take that on board.
I welcome the witnesses. I corrected for the SEC for two or three years back in the day when I was a newly qualified teacher, when I was enthusiastic and thought of all the advantages it would give to me, going onto my CV as I searched for that elusive history and geography job. There lies the problem. Many younger teachers in particular probably see it, or did see it, in terms of the advantages of it and why they might have to do it. The teacher shortages we have mean fewer people are inclined to think they have to serve their time doing this in order that schools might take them more seriously or see they have experience built up in this area. That is reflective of the general teacher shortages we have across the board in various subjects.
In what subjects in particular are we experiencing a significant shortfall? Is it typically the sciences, home economics or the usual suspects? Do the witnesses have any numbers on this?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We do not have numbers but, across subjects, the supply shortages are reflective of where there are pinch points. Home economics and the marking of the practical examinations have been challenging for a number of years, particularly at junior cycle. The subjects in which marking is ongoing at the moment at junior cycle are not those subjects. We have marking happening currently in English and in religious education. They are the two subjects that are continuing to be marked and there are small amounts being marked in others as well. The challenge has been trying to manage the resources and the numbers we have and assigning the work in order that we can get it completed within the timeline. I am delighted to hear the Deputy corrected for us previously in the subjects of history and geography, which are Ms Sheridan's background, and found it to be very positive work. We would like to reflect those benefits to teachers, get them in from an early stage in their career and retain them in the work. Their work is vital to us and to their students. In terms of making a contribution to society and the education system as a whole, it is vital work that is done by thousands of teachers each year.
I found it positive that, as Ms Feeney has mentioned, there has been an increase in the increments or pay for this work this year and next year. That is to be welcomed, but my experience was that half of your money was going on tax while you lost the majority of your holidays. That was the disincentive. It was not all rosy either.
Is it the case that certain subjects are holding up the production or release of the entirety of the junior certificate results? Was any consideration given to early release of results if, for example, four or ten subjects were ready to go?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The junior cycle results are a consolidated set of results. They are not just the results of the examinations but are tied in with the classroom-based assessments. Under the reform measures introduced a number of years ago, the junior cycle is a consolidated assessment process. It does not just depend on those terminal examinations but also on classroom-based assessment. It would not be fair on the students or the system to have a phased release of examination results.
With regard to the money and what is lost in tax, we unfortunately do not have any control over that. There is an issue with regard to the holidays. We have seen the impact of teachers wanting to go on holidays this year. We would like to find a balance in respect of the amount of time required of individuals in correcting to ensure an equilibrium between the time, money and effort required to fulfil roles with the State Examinations Commissions and people feeling they still have time for a holiday at the end of the process.
To go back to my own experience, I remember I had cleared my desk and had done all of my examinations when I was landed with another 200 or 300. Does Ms Feeney have any figures on the number of examiners who are in that situation as it is now almost inevitable that people will get additional scripts?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The numbers we have shared this morning probably demonstrate that is the case in a lot of subjects. I do not believe that applies to all subjects but I will ask Ms Sheridan to comment on that.
Ms Elaine Sheridan
We do not have that situation in all subjects but, because of the increase in the candidature and the reduction in the number of examiners, there have, as Ms Feeney referred to in her opening statement, been situations in which the marking window has had to be lengthened. However, we generally have the co-operation of the examiners in that. We also put contingency measures in place. This is the cycle. Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned the cyclical nature of this. We need to break that cycle so that we are not taking for granted the goodwill of examiners, such as Deputy O'Sullivan himself, who mark what is called the "full bunk" and are then asked to take on some more. We need to look at possible opportunities. The Deputy mentioned that, like me, he marked to help in his teaching but also to help get an appointment in a school. What we now need to look at is curricular reform. That is where we are at the minute. We need teachers to see the new junior cycle subjects and the senior cycle redevelopment that is coming along as being of benefit to them and that engaging in the marking process provides a whole-system benefit to their teaching and learning, to their students and to the State Examinations Commissions more broadly
When the State Examinations Commission sends out communiqués and advertises for examiners, it will obviously do so in the newspapers and online and so on. However, how does it specifically communicate to teachers? I was involved with two unions when I was teaching and I can safely say it was very rare for this to come up or be encouraged locally. Is this done through the Teaching Council or directly through school principals? What is the mechanism?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We use all mechanisms at our disposal. We advertise through the teacher unions, school management, representative bodies, the Joint Managerial Body, the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, Education and Training Boards Ireland and the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals. We also communicate directly to anyone who is on our lists from previous years. I am surprised the Deputy did not receive an email from us over the past while because we contacted everybody as part of the process. We have contacted principals directly to appeal to them to exercise their good offices as school leaders in encouraging participation in the staffroom. We are reaching out in as many different ways as we can. We have mentioned the "Earn, learn and understand" campaign, a poster campaign supplemented by a video run on social media. We will continue to use all channels at our disposal to reach teachers.
Ms Elaine Sheridan
I will just mention one other very important link, the teacher professional networks, which are the subject associations. We have national associations and regional associations. We have a banked list of 25 to 30 subject associations. These are included in our mailshots so, when we send something out, we are in direct contact with those specific subject associations.
They were very helpful last year in communicating with and encouraging their members. We keep them in the loop because it allows us to address a specific audience related to a given subject.
Is the Teaching Council not involved in any type of advertising? Even as a non-practising teacher, I still get a renewal notice every year. That might also be an opportune avenue if use can be made of it.
Ms Andrea Feeney
We can follow up on that with the Teaching Council and with the teacher payroll unit.
Has the State Examinations Commission received many queries from junior certificate students, their families or their parents in the days since the new date was issued?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We got four following the issue of the date and 65 before it was issued.
A number of questions have been asked already. The student population at both leaving certificate and junior certificate level is going to increase. At the moment, there is an issue with the junior certificate. What is the commission putting in place to ensure the same issue does not arise with regard to the leaving certificate next year or the year after? If there is a shortage of examiners for junior certificate, which is an issue the commission has seen for a number of years, what reassurance can the witnesses give the committee that leaving certificate results will not be delayed until the end of August or early September next year or the year after? They will be aware of the problems that would cause with third level placements and so on.
Ms Andrea Feeney
The leaving certificate results have issued in early September for the last three years because of the circumstances of the pandemic and the particular arrangements that were made.
Let me rephrase my question. I would love to be able to forget we had the Covid pandemic. However, going back to the original date, the leaving certificate results were always published in August.
Ms Andrea Feeney
On the question of the impact of the examiner supply issue on the leaving certificate results, it is very clear that we have prioritised marking the leaving certificate. The number of examiners who marked junior cycle in 2019 was 1,756. The number who marked junior cycle this year was 1,270. However, at leaving certificate level, the numbers kept pace. The numbers in 2019 and 2022 were similar. That was very deliberate on our part. We prioritised the marking of the leaving certificate in the assignment of examiners to the marking teams as we recognised the importance of the leaving certificate results to the students involved as regards progression. I am not saying that the junior cycle results are unimportant but the leaving certificate results are important for students progressing to further and higher education and to the world of work. The priority in the assignment of examiners was, therefore, given to the leaving certificate. We want to increase the number of examiners available across the board so that we do not face this challenge at either leaving certificate or junior cycle level. As to the reassurance we can give, as I have reflected already, we see this as a whole-of-system issue. There are absolutely measures we need to take and work we need to continue with the stakeholders but it is a whole-of-system issue. We have had offers of support from the management representative bodies. We have worked very closely with them and with the teacher unions and we will continue to do so in order to deliver our system of examinations, which is externally assessed by the State Examinations Commission. It is marked by teachers who are marking students for the State Examinations Commission. There is work for us to do as an organisation in concert with all of the stakeholders.
There is quite a number of retired teachers who do supervision in the exam halls. Can retired teachers correct examinations?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Yes. Retired teachers are involved in our examining teams and in superintending positions. In some subjects, we are actually very dependent on retired teachers. They do not make up the same proportion of examiners as superintendents but we are quite dependent on them in our written examining teams.
Is there are a cut-off as to the number of years a teacher can be retired while still doing corrections in light of changes to the curriculum and what is happening in the classroom? People who have been retired for 20 years would not know the curriculum in the same way as people who retired five years ago.
Ms Andrea Feeney
Again, I might ask my colleague, Ms Sheridan, to comment.
Ms Elaine Sheridan
Generally, we want to make sure people are as close to the classroom experience as possible. In some subjects, there is a specific policy after X number of years that retired examiners are no longer recruited. However, we must be very conscious of the reason we are here today, which is that we have an examiner-supply problem. We have very few examiners working with us who have a long distance from the classroom and are out of it for 20 years. What we are very conscious of is that we are very grateful to our retired examiners, because they bring a huge amount of experience, in particular to our senior examining teams as well. We are conscious of that in terms of the robust training that we provide. Very detailed resources are provided to all examiners. While retired teachers can be distant from the classroom, equally, there is an issue with newly qualified teachers who have not clocked up the miles in the first place. We provide very robust training materials and exemplars. There is a lot of marking done on sampling material at the marking conferences in order that we are sure that we can robustly support and stand over the marking by all our examiners, not just retired or newly qualified ones. Again, we have the quality assurance processes throughout in terms of getting material. As I mentioned to Senator Dolan, the move to online marking is pretty much instantaneous. If we have a situation with an examiner, we can immediately address that and put measures in place. We are very appreciative and very lucky to have a core group of retired examiners. As I mentioned previously, our priorities are in the criteria that are listed on our website on how we go about examiner appointments. We apply those criteria and try to put the best quality examiners in place, while we are cognisant of the fact that we do have an examiner supply problem.
As Deputy O'Sullivan said, and from the experience of my own friends, both male and female, some of whom are single, the very minute they finish in the classroom they want to go travelling for the two or three months. When they get married and have a family, they want to spend time with their kids during the summer holidays. If the witnesses had the Minister for Education in front of them, what two or three processes would they ask her to put in place? Do they think that it should be part of a teacher's contract to correct exams?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The Minister and the Department have already been greatly supportive of the efforts that we have made to get additional examiners.
Has more money been requested for them?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Yes, we have and we received it. The rates have increased. For the leaving certificate, the minimum increase is 17% in the script rate and the maximum increase is 50%. At junior cycle, the minimum increase is 48% in the script rate and the maximum increase is 58%. They are very significant increases in pay.
Is Ms Feeney saying money is not an issue?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Money is one of the issues, and we have certainly addressed it. The year 2021 was the first year that we got the Covid-related extraordinary payments that have now been retained for 2023. Prior to that, we were quite disempowered in our examiner supply recruitment efforts because pay was a constant issue. With the increases, it is clear that money is one factor. We do need to bear in mind the Covid context and the fact that people went on holidays this year. We hope there will be some improvement in that situation for next year. We must look at all the issues you mentioned, Chair, such as childcare, the fact that teachers have young families and that they have made a lifestyle choice and a career choice that is compatible with their family responsibilities. We must look at the range of factors with the stakeholders and see how we can strike a balance so that the time demand for teachers getting involved is perhaps reduced so that there are more teachers doing this for a shorter period of time. That is the objective that we have. We want it to become a beneficial experience as well as one which increases their earning power. With the increases in the script rate, the earnings can be significant. I appreciate the tax issue that arises, but the earnings can be significant for individual teachers if we can balance the time that is required for teachers involved in the work.
Should it be considered part of a teacher's contract that he or she would have to correct examinations?
We must get serious about this. The situation must improve. Ms Feeney says she hopes that next year it will not be the case that a lot of people will be on holiday, which they were due to Covid. I throw that out as an idea.
Ms Andrea Feeney
I mentioned that it happens in other jurisdictions. These things need to be looked at in the longer term. We have had a very proud tradition in this country of not having it as part of the teaching contract. It was something teachers always did on a discretionary basis, in addition to their teaching work. In the longer term, it is perhaps something that could be looked at. It is not something the SEC has any power over in terms of the teaching contract. We must focus on the steps and measures that we take in order to effect the change that is needed in collaboration with the stakeholders.
I have just one final question before I bring other committee members back in. The junior certificate is a very important examination because it prepares students for the career path they might want to take. I strongly believe that students should have their junior certificate results before they choose the subjects they want to take on in fifth and sixth years. Does Ms Feeney believe that by bringing the junior certificate forward by perhaps two months it would help the SEC and also prepare students for the subject choices they would make in fifth year for the real examination of the leaving certificate? Does Ms Feeney understand where I am coming from?
Ms Andrea Feeney
I do. We probably need to go back, in terms of the junior cycle, and the results of the junior certificate. Even pre-Covid and the changes that we have had, in 2019 junior cycle results issued at the beginning of October. Prior to that, the timeline was the third week in September. Students have never had their junior cycle results before they made their decisions, but they also-----
Yes, but my question is whether it would be beneficial to students if they had the results prior to making their choices. I know I am straying a bit from the issue at hand.
Ms Andrea Feeney
Again, under junior cycle reform, the students are engaging in different forms of assessment in the classroom. They are engaging with their teachers in other forms of summative assessment, with their classroom-based assessment. There is a lot more information available to them and about their level of attainment that will give them the clues and information that they need about their subject selection and level. In terms of what it would do at a logistical perspective for the SEC, I do not know. I would have to give it some time to think about it. It sounds to me like it could be quite disruptive to have examinations happening two months earlier in the school year. If the students did their examinations in April instead of in June, what happens to them for the rest of the two months of the year? It might be hard in terms of engaging at that point in time. It is a question I had not considered previously. There are teachers in classrooms at the moment who are very capable of giving advice about their level and also the subjects that they plan to take, and they do so. That is for students who have gone directly into fifth year. A lot of students go into transition year and they have the time they need to make up their mind. Even for those who are in fifth year, there should be enough information available professionally in the school to give them that advice. That is not to say that we would not like to have the results out earlier. We would if we were able to.
I have a number of other questions to ask if I may.
Speakers can have three minutes each.
How many staff are in the State Examinations Commission?
Ms Andrea Feeney
Our approved number of staff is 190, but we have some vacancies at the moment that we are trying to recruit to fill.
Do the 190 staff co-ordinate the examiners? What are their roles? I understand Mr. Dolan is head of operations, but could Ms Feeney outline briefly what are the roles of the 190 staff? My key question is who is the marketing manager?
Ms Andrea Feeney
In terms of the structure of the organisation, we have four divisions: an examinations and assessment division, which Ms Sheridan heads up and chairs; Mr. Dolan is head of the operations division - I will hand over to him in a moment; we have two more divisions - corporate services and HR and information technology.
Where does the responsibility fall for marketing?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The marketing falls under operations and corporate affairs. Does Mr. Dolan wish to comment?
Who is the marketing manager in Mr. Dolan's section? Is there no director of marketing, advertising or recruitment?
Mr. Richard Dolan
No, we do not have a specific director with such responsibility. We are split between the various exams in a linear way for students entering through-----
I am sorry for interrupting but I only have a couple of minutes.
Who is managing the SEC's marketing and advertising? The SEC came to the committee to state there is a shortage of examiners. Within its cohort of 190 staff and more than €70 million of a budget, how is the SEC highlighting who is managing its marketing and advertising? I am aware it had a number of staff who were engaging with teachers but who is managing the advertising that is going out? Who is managing the short video scripts? Is the SEC present on social media?
Ms Andrea Feeney
That is being done. It is a management board issue. Both Mr. Dolan and Ms Sheridan have had responsibilities in terms of the marketing. We also have an examiner section that deals with the recruitment of our examiners. As I said, this is a key strategic issue for the organisation and has been co-ordinated at our management board level.
Does it need a dedicated position in light of the issues Ms Feeney presented to us?
Ms Andrea Feeney
There are those of us who have responsibilities to ensure that we-----
A dedicated position in which a person is responsible.
Ms Andrea Feeney
It is something we would need to take away and look at.
To my mind, I would like to see the SEC present on those social media platforms, for example, to engage with teachers.
Ms Andrea Feeney
We do not have our own social media presence.
Okay.
Ms Andrea Feeney
We had co-operation and assistance from the Department of Education over the last year in the recruitment of examiners using its social media channels.
Obviously, we need to up the ante here. What I would like to see coming back from the State Examinations Commission is what its board is going to look at in terms of a dedicated position and how it is present in media. That is how it gets recruitment in. What sort of short or one-minute type videos is it looking at to showcase the strengths of this position and the benefits of taking part?
My other question is around schools. Can schools indicate the number of teachers who are doing examinations or acting as examiners at the moment? Can a school inspection report state that four out of 20 of its teachers are currently school examiners? It does not need to indicate who they are, but is there any incentive we can give to schools and principals to encourage their teachers to take part? What incentives are we giving to secondary schools?
Ms Andrea Feeney
There is one short video on our website at the moment.
That is great.
Ms Andrea Feeney
It is there and as I said, it has been broadcast on social media; not ours but those of others.
It would be good to have it on the SEC's.
Ms Andrea Feeney
With regard to the schools, we are conscious that some schools have a very proud and long tradition of supporting examinations work where-----
What incentives does a school have? What is a principal's incentive to do this if he or she cannot say four teachers are currently examiners? Parents then can see there is a teacher in this school who is currently an examiner and really understands the system and the marking. There is potentially a benefit for a school to state that so many of its teachers act as examiners or have done so within the past five years. That could be showcased.
We are out of time. I will ask Ms Feeney to reply to the Senator's question. I will then move on to Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.
I apologise; it is just that the slot is so short.
Ms Andrea Feeney
In terms of the schools, the benefits are inherent for the individual school leader that he or she can actually say that. As I said, we have gone directly to school principals and asked them to not just put a notice on the notice board and send an email but to go into the staff room and have that conversation with teachers about the benefits to the school and to themselves as individuals. There are, therefore, professional benefits to the school.
In terms of the teaching and learning for a teacher who engages and works with the examinations, people want to know - not that there are secrets - what happens behind the scenes with regard to the examinations. The opportunity is there to come behind the scenes. Teachers can work with the State Examinations Commission and have that experience of marking their subject and then be able to use that in terms of informing their practice in the classroom. Those are the benefits we would stress in our engagement with principals.
Okay. I support Senator Dolan on one thing, which is social media. The SEC is now engaging with a different generation of young people, including those aged 45 and below. If the SEC wants to get people in, it has to get involved with social media platforms such as Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. Getting behind the scenes and under the bonnet of what happens has to be done on social media.
Ms Andrea Feeney
Absolutely.
I have two brief questions. Ms Feeney mentioned earlier the delay with regard to the junior certificate results and the knock-on effect for people who may be doing apprenticeships. She mentioned that the SEC was in touch with SOLAS. Is it the case that the SEC is waiting for SOLAS to revert to her? Where is that at? Has the commission been corresponding with regard to what it will do with that cohort of people? That is the first question.
The second goes back to the number of examiners. It is an unfortunate reality we have to deal with but before Covid-19, what way were the examiner numbers trending? Ms Feeney said the number is at approximately 3,500 or 3,300. Up to that point, was there in excess of that? Has there been a steady decline in the trend? Has it been up and down? What kind of trend was there?
Ms Andrea Feeney
On the first question about the apprenticeships, the engagement with SOLAS is recent. We have some follow-up to do to work that through in terms of access to apprenticeships for students who are waiting for their junior cycle results.
On the second question, this was a challenge pre-Covid. Ensuring that we had enough examiners each year was a challenge up to and including 2019. The number of candidates was trending up and the number of examiners was trending down, but we have actually seen a step change in 2022.
Was there a high point in the last decade where we had 5,000 or 4,500 just to give us an idea?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The high point has probably been 4,000, to be honest. I am trying to think of the figures from 2013. I think it might have been 3,900; it has gone down. The number of candidates has gone up. We have been doing things, however. I mentioned to Senator Dolan earlier about using technology to ensure we are able to get marking done. Even in 2019 and up to that year, we had put in place remedial measures to get the marking done within the time window. It is not, therefore, a new phenomenon. It is just that there has been a step change this year, and I think there is a Covid impact.
This might be a completely useless point to make but I remember that after teaching, I subsequently went on to do invigilation for examinations. I always felt that was much more convenient and less time-consuming. Should we be placing an emphasis that anybody who is going to act as an invigilator for examinations might have a couple of years' experience built up in actually correcting those examinations to qualify for that? Perhaps "qualify" is the wrong word, but that experience might be beneficial. In my time, it was much more difficult to get that post than the actual examiner post. It might be something worth thinking about.
Ms Andrea Feeney
It is an interesting suggestion. Certainly, we need to look at all possibilities here.
Ms Elaine Sheridan
That is the benefit of the review and the working group. We have built very strong relationships with a really broad range of stakeholders. The key ones are focus groups with teachers to ask them why they are not coming. We know there is a lifestyle aspect with holidays in June, July and August but we need to know the reasons. Why do people mark with us? Why do they not come back? Why do we have a retention problem? What might we need to do to find out what would make it more attractive? That is the bit we need now. We have been working with a range of stakeholders but now we need to tap in to the teachers themselves.
I assume that review is under way now and will be in place for next year. Can the SEC send us a copy of that when it is concluded?
Ms Andrea Feeney
We are scoping the terms of reference for the review at the moment. We have had initial engagement with some of the key stakeholders to reach out to them to seek their assistance. As my colleague said, we need to engage not only with the stakeholders but directly through teachers. We will come back to the committee on that when we have scoped out the terms of reference for the review in full.
I have one last question. What would a corrector earn?
Ms Andrea Feeney
With the changes that were introduced-----
An average for junior certificate and leaving certificate examinations.
Ms Andrea Feeney
I will give the Chairman a couple of averages, if he does not mind. The examiners are paid a per-script rate for every script they correct. They are also paid different fees for attending the conferences, for example, and for administration. With the changes that were introduced this year, the average rate of payment for the lowest paid examiner, which is an examiner at junior cycle marking 300 to 350 scripts, is approximately €3,000 before tax. That is the lowest. At the upper end of the spectrum then, the highest rate of payment we have is associated with marking English or Irish at higher level, remembering that the examiner for that subject marks both papers, that is, English papers 1 and 2 and Irish papers 1 and 2. To mark an average bunk, which is 200 scripts, they are paid €8,000 before tax.
How many weeks' work would that be?
Ms Andrea Feeney
The contract is 26 days from the date of the training conference. The training conferences are related to the date of the examination and then we have a marking window that stretches for 26 days from that date. Really, what has been happening over the last number of years is that they will continue to mark past what we call the sprioclá, which is the end date of the 26-day period from the marking conference. To be clear, though, in terms of a headline number of €8,000, that is for our very top or highest level of marking. The rates of fees go from €3,000 to the top rate of €8,000. The rates are per-script based on the complexity of the subject and the length of time it takes to mark the subject.
Does Deputy O'Callaghan wish to come back in?
No. I suspect that the questions about the difficulty in recruiting examiners have already been addressed. I will look back through the transcript. I thank the Chairman.
Absolutely. I thank the officials for coming in today and briefing the committee. I specifically thank the officials and acknowledge their co-operation in agreeing to come before the committee at very short notice as we are in recess next week. This was a timely opportunity and I thank the officials.
The joint committee adjourned at 2.05 p.m until 11 a.m on Tuesday, 8 November 2022.