Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht

Mental Health Supports in Schools and Tertiary Education: Discussion (Resumed)

The joint committee met in private session at 11.05 a.m., suspended at 11.08 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.10 a.m.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I ask members to ensure that mobile phones are switched off. This is because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment.

The minutes of the meeting of 15 November are agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children; Ms Suzanne Connolly, CEO of Barnardos; Ms Kathleen Moran, chairperson of the School Libraries Group of the Library Association of Ireland; Mr. Michael Kelly, CEO and founder of Grow It Yourself, GIY; and Mr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin, education director of Fighting Words. Apologies have been received from A Lust For Life, whose representative could not attend due to conflicting commitments. The witnesses are here to discuss mental health supports in schools and tertiary education. I will invite them to make brief opening statements and this will be followed by questions from members. Each member will have a five-minute slot for questions and witnesses' responses. The committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting.

I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses are reminded that they should not indulge in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I thank all our witnesses and invite Dr. Muldoon to make his opening statement.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear today to discuss the topic of mental health supports in schools and tertiary education. As members are aware, the Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, is an independent statutory body established in 2004 under the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002.

Promoting the rights and welfare of children experiencing mental health difficulties has been a strategic priority for me and the OCO since 2016. A key goal of the OCO’s strategic plan for the period 2022 to 2024 is to promote the inclusion of mental health supports and services, including therapeutic services, within all schools.

I sincerely commend the committee on its ongoing dedication to the topic of mental health in schools and for the significant amount of work it has done in this current tranche of meetings. I have no doubt that its work in this area had a big influence in bringing about the most recent commitment from the Department with regard to providing therapy in primary schools.

As the committee is well aware, mental health and psychosocial problems are primary causes of ill health, morbidity and mortality among adolescents, particularly among those in vulnerable groups. These are facts that must always be to the fore when pushing for therapy in schools. It is not a luxury but a necessity. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child emphasises that a comprehensive multisectoral response is needed through integrated systems of mental health care that involve parents, peers, the wider family and schools and the provision of support and assistance through trained staff. It is our opinion that the "integrated systems of mental health care" constitute a vital component to build upon when the Department comes to providing therapy in schools.

The OCO has been calling for independent therapists to be available to every school in the country since 2018. I reiterated that call again in March 2022 at a seminar hosted by the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, NAPD, and entitled Senior Cycle Reform - Carpe Diem. It is now very clear, from all of the witnesses that have appeared before the committee over the past number of weeks that this call is supported by principals at both primary and post-primary level, parents at both levels, students and unions. Indeed, the INTO passed a motion to that effect at its annual conference in the Easter 2022. The committee has also heard from a range of professional bodies that are fully supportive of the concept and from academics who made it clear that the provision of therapy in primary schools is but a very small step toward catching up with most other European countries.

As stated earlier, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child emphasises that a comprehensive multisectoral response is needed through integrated systems of mental health care. It is my belief that now is the time to create such a response. The Department of Education has made the positive commitment to provide therapy in primary schools but in the development of the system to support that, we need to see a strong engagement with the Department of Health and the HSE to ensure an integrated system of mental health care.

A strong and effective therapeutic service in primary schools will not only benefit our children and our schools but will undoubtedly help the HSE through the reduction of waiting lists for both primary care psychology and child and adult mental health services, CAMHS. This is clearly evidenced by the professionals with whom the committee spoke and who implement the English model, which involves a joint approach from their Department of Education and Department of Health via the NHS. This joint working has led to quick and positive outcomes for many children. In one area in Dorset, close to 1,000 children came off the CAMHS waiting list in one year following intervention from the new mental health school teams, MHSTs. Those teams, as the committee is well aware having visited the area, comprise a variety of professionals and are integrated not only within the schools but also within the NHS and CAMHS systems. Each service in Dorset has: a clinical or service lead; a team lead; a supervisor practitioner; a counsellor; a mental health practitioner in a core profession such as nursing, occupational therapy or social work; and education mental health practitioners. Depending on the sizes of the teams, the numbers vary but the expectation is that each team of four education mental health practitioners and one supervisor will cover a population of approximately 7,500 children. It must be remembered too that this model is designed to work from early years up to the end of secondary education.

I have heard suggestions that the Department of Education will simply distribute the €5 million across all primary schools and get the principals to source a therapist. I do not see that as a way to create a viable, long-term system that will serve our children well. It seems to me that such an approach will only put more stress on the principals, who will have to find and oversee a counsellor for their pupils - something they are ill equipped to do. That should be the role of the Department of Education hence my support for the English model. Such a model also creates much more opportunity for preventative work because not only does it offer mental health support for all children in education, it also engages in supporting school and teaching staff through a whole-school approach.

The MHST has three specific core functions set out by the national team. These are: to provide evidence-based interventions for mild to moderate emotional and mental health issues using low-intensity approaches in a one-to-one setting with children, young people or their parents or carers; to support the designated mental health lead in each school to introduce and develop a whole-school approach to emotional well-being; and to give timely advice to school and college staff signposting and liaising with specialist services so it covers the whole range of people involved in the education system.

What this offers is a template to build upon. It is backed up by evidence from research carried out since its inception in 2017, thus allowing our Departments of Education and Health to measure the fidelity and success of their new initiative. That is the type of system I believe we should be setting up here in Ireland. This committee has heard from a wide range of professionals including the Psychological Society of Ireland, the Irish Council of Psychotherapy and the Irish Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy and each one has pledged their willingness to become engaged in this initiative. There is a window of opportunity opening now for our politicians and civil servants to create a world-class therapeutic service within our education system that is collaborative and integrated, not separate and in competition with our health system. Our children deserve no less.

I again thank the committee for its time. I am happy to take questions as necessary.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I invite Ms Connolly to make her opening statement.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I thank the committee for the opportunity to provide evidence on the important topic of mental health in schools. Barnardos provides front-line services to children and families who have been affected by traumatic life situations, such as parental mental health challenges, neglect, separation, bereavement and parental addiction. Our work combats social, educational and economic disadvantage minimising the negative impact these have on children’s lives. We support children and families to build their resilience and to meet children’s social, emotional, behavioural, educational and physical needs.

We deliver our services in the family home, in our centres and in schools. For the purposes of this presentation, I will concentrate on our work in schools. Barnardos has successfully piloted a national well-being programme in schools in Dublin 15 and 24, Tipperary south, Limerick and Thurles to over 500 children. The programme is trauma-informed supporting the positive mental health and well-being of children aged four to 18 years. It recognises the need to prevent and treat toxic stress in vulnerable populations and communities. The programme focuses on increasing children’s awareness of the connection between their bodies and minds and strengthening coping skills and stress-relieving mechanisms. An evaluation carried out this year found that participation in the programme improved children’s emotional regulation. They demonstrated better emotional self-awareness and empathy and developed stress management and coping skills.

As one fifth class boy said:

I think it was really helpful. If someone is stressed they might not know what to do, but the programme can help them. I did some of the breathing we learned and that helped me to stay calm.

The programme also helped teachers deal with classroom anxiety and support children to build coping mechanisms. Teachers reported that they gained new skills to support emotional regulation and wellbeing in their classrooms, as well as addressing students' worries and challenges. One teacher commented:

Sessions provided an opportunity to talk to children who we knew were carrying huge burdens. That was good because sometimes children don't open up and it needed a programme to help us with that.

Barnardos has been providing the Roots of Empathy programme since 2010. More than 12,000 children have received the programme to date, with 2,280 in 120 schools receiving it this year. It aligns with the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum, offering an experiential learning environment where a baby is the “teacher”. It focuses on raising children’s levels of empathy, which is vital to the development of social and emotional skills, and includes the ability to recognise, manage and express feelings, which is integral to regulating emotions. Children who can regulate their emotions are less likely to suffer from childhood psychological disorders, including anxiety and depression. It is an evidence-based programme, which has demonstrated effectiveness and has undergone numerous rigorous international evaluations. The programme delivers on increasing empathy, pro-social behaviour and social and emotional competence and significantly reduces aggression.

Our third school-based programme is our social and emotional skills training programme. It is a targeted programme for nine to 12-year-olds at primary school level whose emotional wellbeing is impaired as a result of having poor relationships with their peers. A child with gaps in their social skills may experience social isolation, which may undermine their social confidence and self-esteem. Research shows that children who are rejected by peers often feel lonely and depressed and are more likely to leave school early and to require mental health services in later life. The programme uses a coaching model to teach children social skills and develop their capacity to recognise and discuss their feelings, and develop positive peer relationships. Sessions include co-operation and conversation skills; coping and social stress; and responsible decision-making. An evaluation of the programme in Ireland found that children’s social skills improved over the course of the programme, with an increased capacity to name and talk about their feelings and emotions, greater confidence and an ability to share with others and to engage in co-operative play.

Barnardos recommends that the committee considers further funding and provision of universal and targeted early intervention programmes in schools focused on developing children’s social and emotional skills and overall wellbeing. Funding for school-based programmes should be supported and complemented with local community services, such as family support and parenting support services, which can provide holistic supports for both children and parents, therefore enhancing parenting capacity to support positive mental health in their children. Improved awareness around trauma-informed care is recommended for schools, as is building referral pathways to local trauma informed services. Finally, it is vital that any developments regarding mental health supports within schools should include the active participation of children and parents in terms of what is helpful for them.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Ms Connolly and Barnardos for their level of detail. I invite Ms Kathleen Moran, chairperson of the school libraries group, SLG, of the Library Association of Ireland, LAI.

Ms Kathleen Moran

We thank the committee for inviting us to this discussion. As outlined in our original submission, we believe that school libraries run by qualified school librarians have an integral role to play in providing mental health supports to students. School libraries can foster creativity, flexibility and resilience and can be safeguarded as the communal sanctuary in a school where students from all year groups can meet in a social context for a wide range of co-curricular and extracurricular activities, providing students with access to a valuable, creative, interior world.

Having access to these resources can be a major support in reducing stress and anxiety levels. School libraries can provide books and resources to support young people’s mental and emotional wellbeing. The Read Your Mind initiative brings together an invaluable collection of 113 books on a range of mental health-related topics, all of which are evaluated and recommended by Jigsaw clinicians. Topics covered include anger, anxiety, autism, bullying, social media and much more.

The junior certificate school programme, JCSP, library project has made the full collection available in all 30 JCSP library project schools with access being open to the whole school community. The collection is also more widely available in e-book format via our digital library service.

In 2018, the programme for international student assessment, PISA, report reported that just 9% of 15-year-olds were able to tell the difference between fact and opinion. This is a major concern, as misinformation and disinformation can affect young people’s mental health by creating anxiety, fear, depression or stress. School librarians are qualified to teach students research and information literacy skills, which are essential skills for all students. A significant part of a school librarian’s role is to promote reading for pleasure and literacy engagement. According to the National Literacy Trust, young people who are most engaged in literacy have better mental health wellbeing than their peers. Reading for pleasure can help students relax, sleep better, reduce anxiety and improve empathy.

The role of the school librarian is far deeper than managing a space, teaching the latest technologies and checking out books. The 2019 My World survey found that the presence of one good adult in the lives of 12 to 18-year-olds was the most powerful predictor of good mental health. School librarians are trusted and represent safety for students who are struggling, for LGBTQI+ students, for students with troubled backgrounds or for those having a hard time at school. School libraries offer extra supports to foster and develop student wellbeing by liaising with stakeholders such as Narrative 4 Ireland empathy education, the Amber Flag initiative, BeLonG To youth services and Places of Sanctuary Ireland etc. All JCSP librarians are already trained as Narrative 4 facilitators.

School libraries are not just places of safety, they are aspiration and inspiration spaces too. Every time a trusted adult hands a book to a young person, what they are actually saying is, “Look at the world and all the things you might do in it.” Our librarians encourage students to think, talk, read and write about the things that matter to them and let them know that their dreams should not be limited by their limited experiences. We aim to provide our students with experiences that help them to turn their dreams into aspirations and ultimately to reality.

In addition to supporting student achievement, school libraries provide respite and refuge from the many challenges that many students face in their daily lives, both within and outside of school. To support health and wellbeing, young people require access to a flexible space for reflection and conversation where the stock reflects the health and wellbeing needs of the whole school community and where learning and creativity are encouraged in a nurturing environment.

We recommend the immediate setting up of a school library advisory group with a view to developing a school library strategy for Ireland. This group should be cross-sectoral with representatives from the worlds of library, education, creative arts, literature, social justice, youth mental health etc. This has already been recommended by this committee but has yet to be acted on.

The Government needs to fulfil its 2005 commitment to further expand the JCSP library project. Expansion has been on hold since 2008. In its reports on leaving certificate reform and supports for displaced students, this committee has recommended the expansion of the JCSP digital library service to all schools. Not only has this not happened, but it is likely that the current level of service will be significantly reduced next year due to the retraction of the promised increase in funding for 2022.

The planned review of the JCSP programme has been in place for almost ten years now and has been repeatedly used as the reason, including at the recent meeting of this committee with the Minister for Education, for not considering recommended developments of the JCSP library project services, either physical or digital. We believe that development proposals, both ours and those of the committee, should be reviewed on their merits and not continue to be ignored on this technicality as has been the case for many years now.

I will finish with some words from our students. These are responses to a recent survey of our first-year students. "I like our school library because I can go there after school or during English class and just sit, read and relax and it takes my mind off things and makes me feel less stressed." Another said,"I saw they had an LGBTQ+ book earlier and I felt included". Another comment was, "I like reading because it brings me to a world of imagination". This last note is from a librarian who found a note on his desk from a leaving certificate student before she left the school:

Thank you. Thank you for encouraging young people to read and explore their creative minds. Your library has always been a safe space not only for me but for my friends and for many other students. Thank you.

I thank the committee for listening and will be happy to answer any questions it may have.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Ms Moran for her contribution and for including the testimonies of the students, which was very powerful. I invite Mr. Michael Kelly, CEO and founder of Grow It Yourself, GIY, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael Kelly

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today. The primary school students of today are the first generation that will experience the strongest impacts of climate change. It is critical that we provide these students with the tools, knowledge and life skills to support their wellbeing into the future. I believe we have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to embed food growing and food literacy into our primary education system.

For members of the committee who are not familiar with GIY, we are an award-winning social enterprise that supports people to live healthier, happier lives by growing some of their own food. GIY has run education programmes in primary schools across Ireland and the UK since 2014. More than 1 million schoolchildren and 55% of primary schools in Ireland have taken part in a GIY food growing programme in that time. We were also invited by Healthy Ireland to join the food in school forum to provide leadership and guidance in helping children to make healthy food choices.

The GROW At School solution itself is simple. Primary schools receive a kit with all the materials they need to create a school garden. Students learn how to grow 14 different vegetables in the school, under a growing plan designed to grow and harvest in line with the academic year. Teachers take a school garden course to provide them with the training and skills to facilitate growing at school. Lesson plans and teaching resources linked to the curriculum are provided and teachers invited to join a community of GROW At School teachers nationwide.

How does this support mental health and well-being? Food growing is an important climate mitigation activity that saves carbon and protects biodiversity directly. It is important to note that negative emotions relating to climate change are among the most commonly reported anxieties and worries among children of today. A garden environment is a place that supports learning, resilience, hope, health, positivity and well-being. Putting a seed into soil teaches children the understanding of where their food comes from, the benefits of eating nutritious food and an increased appreciation of the connection between healthy diets and healthy minds.

According to Dr. Sandra Austin, of the Marino Institute of Education, gardens are place of learning, inclusion, equality, joy, connection, healing and celebration. There are proven physical and mental benefits of engaging with the soil. There are even happiness-boosting bugs in soil called mycobacterium vaccae that make one feel positive and confident. Teachers from the programme to date speak of the sensory benefits that children report such as smelling herbs and working with the soil. Sometimes they even enjoy the weeding. A garden provides a whole-school approach to supporting well-being and mental health in children, an approach outlined by the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, guidelines.

A garden is a place that acts as a formal and an informal teaching tool, providing for a balance of activities and experiential hands-on learning in a positive and fun environment. Teachers taking part in the GROW At School programme report that it supports a sense of inclusivity, belonging and connectedness. Spending time in nature boosts resilience and recovery in children. It helps them to feel calm, hopeful and safe. Garden-based learning supports well-being by minimising alienation and by providing an environment that supports language differences, differing cultural backgrounds, trauma or other challenges that students may face.

GROW At School has been piloted as a programme for four years and is now ready for scale. We are incredibly ambitious for this programme. We currently provide it in 132 primary schools and we aim to roll it out to 1,600 schools by 2024, which would be half of all primary schools in the State. We aim to have every primary school in Ireland growing food by 2030.

I will now outline our recommendations to the committee. We recommend the implementation of GROW At School as a national food growing programme for primary schools that supports mental health and well-being. We would look for departmental funding for GROW At School as a health and well-being initiative delivered through public partnership between the public sector, social enterprise and private businesses. We have raised nearly €600,000 for this programme so far. We would also seek support for the development of curriculum-linked lesson plans in collaboration with the HSE health and well-being teams. We further recommend the support programme's evaluation and potential expansion in the future to post-primary education.

GROW At School can be an effective national programme that meets multiple objectives and action points outlined in the programme for Government including, specifically under theme No. 1, action point 1.2, to encourage schools and colleges to provide access to land where students can grow their own food. GROW At School promotes healthy behaviours, supports well-being, and provides a hands-on experience that teaches students they can be their own agents for change. We invite the committee to support this programme and partner with us in this once-in-a-generation opportunity to provide a positive, practical and pro-active solution that promotes well-being and supports mental health.

I thank members for their attention and I welcome their questions.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

The line about the happiness boosting bug is the best I have heard today. I look forward to hearing a lot more during the meeting.

I call our final speaker, Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin from Fighting Words.

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

Fighting Words was founded in 2009 by Roddy Doyle and Seán Love with the aim of empowering young people to write creatively and have fun with imagination and ideas while writing their stories. Our workshops, summer camps, projects, and publications are delivered from our headquarters in Dublin’s north inner city, and across the country with 20 Fighting Words outlets in most counties. This brings a strong focus between our arts centres, communities, schools and partners at a local level. More than 100 workshops per month are happening around the country and to date, 240,000 children have engaged with the Fighting Words programme at some level.

This experience is matched with a parallel programme around research. We are based at Dublin City University, DCU, doing research into the educational impact of arts and creativity on young people. We have produced a number of reports, which we have detailed in our written submission. In summary, we know that creative engagement in the arts bring benefits for young people in education, literacy, numeracy and oracy. More than that, there are significant beneficial outcomes from creativity in education that bring a range of advantageous outcomes for young people in mental health and well-being, for example, around resilience, confidence, self-efficacy and improved social, emotional, and communication skills. We are seeing positive outcomes when children are encouraged to express themselves, use their imagination and use their ideas. The sense of positivity and fulfilment that comes from being in that creative space has significant positive impacts for children.

Our programme includes creative engagement with marginalised and disadvantaged communities, minority communities, children with disabilities, those experiencing mental health issues and those with special educational needs. Crucially, everything that Fighting Words does is free of charge for schools, children and partners at every level. Our programmes are run at every level from early years to primary school to junior certificate and senior cycle and onwards with young adults. We purposely engage at all levels because one of the observations and facts arising from our research is that the space and time for creativity in the arts in the school system for young people shrinks as they grow through the school system. This was our experience as well if we think back to our own school days. That is a real challenge and something we must address. The benefits around mental health, well-being, communication skills, confidence and ability are all things that our teenagers and young adults need now. This needs to be supported.

Creativity and imagination have a fundamental and positive impact with well-being and young people are enabled to find their own voice and to express their own ideas, which can positively impact on their self-concept. In our research we find that it can be transformative. It can help young people to imagine different futures for themselves, where they can see themselves beyond their community, beyond their school, and envisage new lives for themselves.

Learning how to be creative improves students' achievements in schools. The opportunity to have their voice heard is particularly significant for students experiencing mental health issues. Observations from various stakeholders indicate a range of positive changes in participants' behaviour and attitudes. The research coming from the OECD or the significant research that was delivered by the World Health Organization, WHO, endorses this important connection between creativity in the arts and mental health and well-being. There is a positive response to creativity in education in Ireland, which has been endorsed by the Taoiseach and the relevant Ministers and all relevant Departments. We are also seeing significant projects such as Creative Schools with Creative Ireland, and with the Arts Council and others investing in schools and investing in education programmes. However, the research also shows there is a disconnect between the policy priority and the delivery of creative moments, creative play and creative activity in schools.

Looking to the future, one of the key points we would make is on teacher education. There needs to be a greater emphasis on: creative methodologies and participative learning in teacher education; the curriculum and curriculum space; and time for teachers to do these kinds of creative activities at every level through the school system.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Dr. Ó Cuanacháin. He made an important point about the ability to imagine a different future, which we all need. I will now move to committee members and I invite Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh to contribute. He has five minutes.

We may have an opportunity at the end to come back if there are questions our guests did not have time to answer initially.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am caught slightly on the hop by being called first but I thank our guests for their presentations. I agree it is very important work, as Dr. Muldoon set out. I want to look at that in a little more detail but will turn to Mr. Kelly first. He knows I do not need to be convinced of the benefits of in-school growing. It is something I have been doing for a number of years. I give particular credit to Paddy Madden in Coláiste Mhuire Marino, who is very passionate about growing in schools and children's appreciation of the natural world. I mentioned the climate anxiety that exists in children in the Dáil last week and Mr. Kelly has touched on it. I try to shield my children from it as much as possible but it is important to dwell on the fact the best antidote to despair is action and Mr. Kelly is talking about an action-based approach.

On Men's Sheds, I have heard it described in the context of men having a great difficulty talking face-to-face and talk much better shoulder-to-shoulder. Many of the children I found difficult to reach when teaching in a traditional classroom format were much easier to reach and form a relationship and bond with was when I was either in the garden or on the GAA pitch with them. It gave me an opportunity to interact with them in a different, informal way but also it was shoulder-to-shoulder rather than face-to-face. I want to give Mr. Kelly an opportunity to comment on that. How does he see that role as a gardener, rather than a teacher, and how that can help foster relationships or change the nature of relationships with students?

Mr. Michael Kelly

I thank the Deputy. It is such an important point. The feedback we get from schools is always that food growing is a great leveller for children of all abilities and ages. Sometimes the most marginalised children can participate and thrive in the school environment where they may not be thriving academically. That feedback is very strong from the participating schools. In general, by taking action and doing something positive is a great way to alleviate the anxiety over some of the hopelessness we might feel around climate change, which is such an existential, oppressive issue. Food growing, for adults or children, on a personal level is such a positive, optimistic thing. You are sticking a seed in the soil and trusting it will turn into a plant that will product food. It is an act of hope and very forward-looking as well. You are always looking six months down the line to what is coming next. For the children who are participating, we find the feedback very strongly that they feel a huge sense of pride and empowerment.

On a general level, we all go through our lives surrounded by systems we do not necessarily understand, such as our phones, computers and so on. The same somewhat applies to our food system. We do not necessarily understand how it all works. The food shows up in the supermarket and we purchase it, so we have a slightly infantilised relationship with food now. When you grow some food yourself you understand how it all works and that is an incredible sense of empowerment, which is also a very positive thing for any individual, but especially for children. We want to create that foundation where, with a very small investment per school, they can have a school garden space for people. It can be done in almost all school environments. We have put school gardens into tiny urban spaces and it works. We need to embed that into our food system as something that becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I realise the clock is against me, but what Dr. Muldoon was driving at about the need for integration between the Department and the HSE if we are putting these mental health services into schools is of critical importance. I was at a meeting with Tusla representatives in the south east yesterday and was struck again by the piecemeal nature of the supports offered to children. They end up acting with a host of different agencies. Very often the borders of those agencies are not quite the same, so the Tusla area and the community healthcare organisation, CHO, area do not tend to align. I want to give Dr. Muldoon the opportunity, if the Acting Chair allows it, to expand on that idea of how we could get to an integrated model of mental health services that is going to answer best the needs of the children.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I have been calling for this for many years and have investigated on a number of occasions the separation between the HSE and Tusla or between the HSE and the Department of Education. This is an opportunity at primary level to engage a team that works to support children across their well-being and their mental health. Again, we do not have to do exactly what is in place in England, which is perhaps a clinical psychologist, a social worker, a clinical nurse and a mental health education person. That allows the service to work with an individual child who comes with an issue, such as bereavement, separation, divorce or whatever it might be. It also allows them to work with a group of peers and with families and parents as well. When something is more serious, they are already connected. They do not recreate, separate or impede what is already there but they have a smooth transition immediately. I think there is a four-week waiting list in most parts of Dorset to get into child and adolescent mental health services from this service. That is what we need to get. We need to get that engagement. It is working in England because the Department of Health is funding part of it and including its specialists so the referral is very simple and people know who they are getting a referral from. That sort of joined-up thinking is what we need to establish here.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I will give a little bit of leeway but we can come back to this as well. If Dr. Muldoon wants to send anything to the committee he is welcome too. He might have another opportunity at the end.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan has five minutes.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan will have an opportunity to come back in at the end if that is all right. I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire for his patience.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Gabhaim buíochas lenár n-aíonna go léir. Tá go leor le smaoineamh air ansin agus moltaí atá an-úsáideach dúinn mar choiste. I thank the witnesses very much. It has been one of the most interesting sessions. I apologise for being late. There was some traffic on the way up due to the change in the layout of the Dunkettle roundabout.

It is particularly useful to look over some of the statements. There are concrete solutions and proposals that are useful to us as a committee. My first question is quite general, however. I will direct it to the Ombudsman for Children in the first instance but anyone else who wants to pick it up can do so. It is quite general but it is something that occurred to me. According to the statement from Barnardos, one in three of the young people it supports suffer from anxiety or general mental health difficulty. There is pressure on child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, and all the rest of it. Some of what we do has to be about how we address this but some of it is identifying the causes as well. There are undoubtedly stressors within the education system in terms of examinations and everything to do with that. We can all speculate on this side but from the ombudsman's office's perspective, does it have any evidential basis for the primary reasons that young people's mental health is under such strain? What are the primary causes that are driving increased demand for CAMHS and pushing anxiety? Maybe it is too large a question but it is interesting all the same.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It would not be my forte to have all the research. However, there is no doubt that the committee has heard from a number of witnesses over the last number of weeks who have highlighted the high level of mental health issues for children. That is why we are here; it is clear.

My rationale would be that we are living in a society that is highly pressured all the time for children in a way it never was before. They are different types of pressures. There is much more awareness of their peers' opinions from a very young age than ever before in terms of how they dress, what their hair looks like or what their body shapes are. Those sorts of questions are now popping up for children as young as seven years old around communion. Those sorts of things are different than would have been the case before. Previously, people were in a bubble of their own peers and they generally looked after one another. There is an outside pressure coming in.

That is only anecdotal but there is also the sense that we have many more vulnerable children. We are moving in a situation where we do not support the vulnerable children. As the Deputy knows, probably close to 18% of our children are vulnerable to or living at risk of poverty at this moment. We have many more children with disabilities who are not getting the support they need. We have parents who are under a huge amount of stress in various different ways. Again, maybe their pressures are from high-level, well-paid jobs, and that is a different type of pressure.

When I hear about what is coming, I think we have an opportunity within the education system to create a holistic, well-rounded young person. I have always said that the target for education when someone leaves secondary school should be a child with self-confidence and self-esteem. The academics will look after themselves. People can catch up with their academics when they are 25 or 40; they cannot catch up with their self-esteem or self-confidence. Therefore, if we can build a well-rounded, well-engaged young person from the earliest years through to secondary level, then such people can cope with anything that is thrown at them. That is what we need to be targeting. While there is an opportunity now to change the education system, the stuff I am talking about in terms of mental health psychotherapy and so forth should be the tail end of a well-supported child. Things like libraries, the Grow It Yourself programme and Fighting Words should be in schools. The whole concept is that if we are treating the whole child and not just the academic part then there should be less need for therapy. When therapy is needed, however, it is in the school. It becomes a real hub for the change of our generation from here. It will not take away all the stresses but it will create many more opportunities for those young people to thrive. I am not sure if I helped the Deputy without giving him the facts and figures.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I am sure I could give Dr. Muldoon 25 minutes and we could probably fill that out. It is one of those issues with which we have to grapple. I see that Ms Connolly is indicating. I might throw in one more question for Barnardos. It seems to me that young people do better when they have a sense of purpose and when they are involved in things. While sport is obviously excellent, sometimes there is probably too much emphasis placed on that and other things are needed. The Grow It Yourself programme and Fighting Words are examples of giving people a sense of purpose and a sense of community, which is all too often absent in modern society. I must acknowledge go raibh Fighting Words againn le linn na paindéime sa bhaile agus scéal faoi lighthouses agus gach rud eile. Is clár an-úsáideach a bhí ann.

This is my question for Barnardos. There are two primary elements and there is a bit of a crossover. There is addressing issues as they arise and ensuring people have access to treatment and then, of course, there is trying to prevent it. In between, we are trying to prevent a minor or intermediate issue for people from escalating to a more serious issue. In all of these things, however, we as a committee and an Oireachtas need to identify what works and see how we can persuade the people who have the chequebooks to implement it. I am encouraged that the Roots of Empathy programme has a strong evidence base and that there is international evaluation. Can Ms Connolly tell us a bit more about the outcomes of Roots of Empathy? How can the value that brings be demonstrated to the HSE and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to see it rolled out better?

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I will try to be concise. They are randomised control trials, which provide the strongest evidence base one can have. What is fascinating about it is the community perspective. A baby comes into a classroom once every three weeks and, through observing the baby with a parent, the children learn about temperament and emotions. The teacher observes the children as they respond to the baby and learn about child development. It goes from junior infants up to sixth class at primary level. What I like about the programme is that it is helping children to understand that anxiety and being cross are normal. Some children are more introverted and some are more extroverted and they are learning about themselves through the programme.

The committee needs to understand, as I know it will, that we need action at all levels. We need early intervention and prevention as well as, at the higher level, individual and therapeutic support. Of most importance is that we equip children with skills and the knowledge that it is normal to feel anxious and a bit low sometimes. Anxiety can be at too serious a level on occasion. We need to normalise these feelings and get children to the point where they say they can deal with them through having the right type of support. They get support from their peers as well. That is key. This goes back to being positive. Anxiety levels are high currently. Covid has not helped. For two years, there has been an unusual situation for children and parents. We need to support children and parents and take an holistic perspective.

It is fantastic to have the opportunity to discuss this with the committee, for which I thank members.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Ms Connolly. Next is Deputy Conway-Walsh, to whom I hope to allow a little leeway.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I thank the witnesses for their presentations, which will be useful in our work.

In terms of bringing relevant specialists and others to schools to discuss mental health topics, what sorts of speaker would Dr. Muldoon like to see visiting schools?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Education mental health specialist roles are being created in the teams. This will allow schools to invite people to speak, but who is invited will depend on what each school feels is required. That general professional will engage with the school and check to see what it needs, for example, a talk for the parents, a talk for the children, a workshop or some other type of engagement. It is about working constantly on children's mental health and emotional well-being so that they can educate themselves better. It is also about providing them with as many opportunities as possible. In this way, it is not a job that a teacher has to do. It takes all of the pressure off and the children can begin to trust that individual, the teacher and the principal. Three years later, the school will be doing different things than it did in the first year. It depends on how it is worked on.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Dr. Muldoon. Deputy Conway-Walsh will have time to contribute again. I will make a few points before inviting members to speak again, as needed.

I thank the witnesses for attending, for their commitment and for their opening statements. It is great to hear how rich the initiatives are between, for example, libraries and Barnardo's.

It is fantastic to see: Fighting Words, the creativity, growing in the soil and so on, and the impact that has on young people and children.

I will begin with Barnardos. Ms Connolly highlighted reasons for mental health challenges. Her opening statement gave parental mental health challenges, sometimes neglect, separation of the family unit, bereavement and parental addiction as primary causes. She spoke about the national well-being programme being rolled out in specific areas, including Dublin 15, Tallaght, south Tipperary, Limerick and Thurles and to roughly 500 children in schools. How long has that national well-being programme been going on? What are the constraints on it? It is great to reach those children but there are so many in primary and secondary school. Will Ms Connolly comment on that? I think her opening statement mentioned teachers and parents participating. Will she comment on that?

Ms Connolly spoke at this committee or it could have been at the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health about Roots of Empathy. It was impressive to hear about that programme. From what she said, I believe it makes a difference in how it engages with young people and children and the changes in them. It is the activity, and showing it for others and themselves.

I will start with that and come back with questions for the others.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

The national well-being programme is a proven programme. The reason we were able to do that is because we were funded by “The Late Late Show”. It is fantastic we had that. Now we are fundraising for it. What I really like about that programme is how it engages the body, the heart and the mind. Many talking therapies do not necessarily connect children sufficiently into their bodies where things are manifested first. It also gives fifth class boys techniques and skills. Sometimes you cannot change the circumstances children are living in but you can help them think about how they can self-soothe and do creative, positive things. Ultimately, we try to do it for the parents as well, but that is why one of our recommendations is that whatever is given for children in the school context must be linked in to family support and it must also be accessible to families who are struggling. The holistic approach is key, which goes back to what Dr. Muldoon was saying, that the holistic approach and support is crucial.

Again, we were able to do the Roots of Empathy programme through fundraising. The tough thing this committee has is that the Department of Education is always reluctant to endorse any programme because of funding commitments. Attention needs to be given across the levels of need, which include prevention and early intervention to the targeted level and that, ideally, it would be holistic. Barnardos would say that, inasmuch as possible, there should be a holistic approach to children, their social, emotional, cognitive and physical needs and ensure a range of supports are provided depending on what is needed. Some children and their families will need supports throughout their lives and some will not at all. I would also stress the importance of evidence-based policies.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I am 100% behind Ms Connolly on that. There has to be an evidence base for any programme. That is where we are bringing the academics in as well. Things like the randomised clinical trials are crucial because they will drive policy and we can drive it within our Departments if we can show the benefits and impacts in an evidence-based way.

My next question is for Dr. Muldoon. The Chair and Senator Mullen visited Dorset and viewed the model. A report is being written on that now and will be given to us for information. Dr. Muldoon noted the reduction in the number of children coming off the CAMHS waiting list. He mentioned the realisation that maybe that was not the place for them or that they needed early intervention supports. The committee heard about all the different supports available for online intervention in school, such as the smarter moves programme or having access to online supports. Even that was a textline number - 50808 - and it was stated how important that is for early intervention.

It is crucial we have both the Department of Health and the Department of Education involved in these types of programmes and that that would be effective in bringing children off that waiting list and ensuring they get the early intervention they need. Is there any other element of early intervention that would be beneficial?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The other thing to note is that they said they took 1,000 young people off the waiting list for CAMHS, but that is not the total number of children they dealt with. They also dealt with a lot of people who were not on CAMHS, so a lot of other work was done for children where it was not their first intervention. Recognising that, a bigger number is being dealt with.

Early intervention is all around me here - the school library, Fighting Words, Grow it Yourself, Barnardos. They are all early interventions and they are the ones who create that stronger, more confident child or even just the child who is willing to say to some adult they are afraid, they need a bit of help or they need something extra. Our education system is starting to see that and to move in that holistic way with social and emotional learning. It is recognised now. I hear it constantly at the conferences I attend. They know the child cannot become educated until they are socially and emotionally safe. That is what they need. Teachers need that for children and many schools have done that off their own bat. We need the education system to support that change. That is where the education system is now ahead of the Department of Health. It is saying we need to engage in all parts of our children’s lives to provide for better service and better education in the most rounded way. That is where we need to start moving away from the silos that have been created up to now.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

It is also to build on the pilot it is hoped will be delivered through the Department of Education and the €5 million funding that is being rolled out. I will bring in the other members here and I may come back with more questions at the end.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I did not get an opportunity in the first round because we were very time constricted. I acknowledge the work in libraries. I know Barnardos does fantastic work and I am aware of the Fighting Words series. I often read the Roddy Doyle bits in The Irish Times and brought them into some of my senior classes. I may have kept them away from the stories by 17- and 18-year-olds with the slightly more fruity language and kept them towards the front of the handout, but it is fantastic work.

I know the Barnardos Roots of Empathy programme also focuses on intergenerational skills because very often these things are passed down generations. Very often it is that the parents do not have the skills either. I know Mr. Kelly would be of that opinion in terms of growing. Very often you have to go back to the grandparents who know the time to set seeds and so on. That is very important work the programme does because the child is a product of his or her environment. We have to work on the child but we also have to work on the surrounding environment. Upskilling school staff is also part of that.

Since the opportunity presents itself, I will raise something that is tangential but related to this discussion. Will Dr. Muldoon comment on the ESRI report on nine-year-olds released yesterday? He might not have had time to peruse it yet. It shows some positive trends but we might all dwell on the negative unduly. I see that instances of eating together as a family has fallen from 72% to 67%. Mr. Kelly often talks about food empathy. If people do not sit together as a family, I do not know where the discussions about food happen, but I do not know where that chat happens between parents and children. Participation in sports has fallen from 44% to 34%. The proportion of children in that age category who own mobile phones, and I am trying to hold back this tide at home, has moved from 44% to 55%. I suspect that in future we will talk about mobile phone ownership among young children in a way we talk about cigarettes today. I suspect it does a great deal of damage.

I worry about the mental health impacts, body health and the completely unrestricted access that is possible if young people have their own Internet-connected devices and can use them in an unsupervised way. I invite Dr. Muldoon to comment on this comprehensive report, although one minute and 20 seconds may be a short time to do so.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I am afraid I have only seen the headlines, as the Deputy highlighted. I am also very much aware that this report does not include the years affected by Covid-19. I was contacted by several principals in primary schools who are concerned that they have children aged seven and eight in playgrounds who do not know how to play, share and work together any more. They have to bring them in and teach them so they relearn what they already knew in junior infants but had lost since Covid.

On the mobile devices, that genie is out of the bottle. This is happening. Children are more literate around screens and the phone becomes a part of them. We must move in the other direction of being able to control what they are given in a mobile setting, so that it is not quite a phone but rather a communications device and parents have much more control. This is, however, concerning if it is not properly managed.

As regards sport, for me this is important because of engagement with other people. Young people are not engaging in the same way at home. They are not learning how to have fights at home and to make up and they are not learning how to trust each other and how to hold and let go of grudges and discuss. Again, this is what dinner tables have often done. It can be where people can have their biggest rows but also where they make up the best. When children are aged eight, nine or ten, their brother is the worst person in the world until five minutes later when he hands over an extra sausage and all of a sudden, things have changed. There are these aspects. Society is changing in a way that is harmful at times, but there are also many other positives we must look at as well. We need to ensure we engage with that. From my perspective, as the Ombudsman for Children, we have seen great progress made in children's rights but there are always new challenges coming down the line as society changes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank Dr. Muldoon. I would like to report that there has been no reduction in the number of fights happening around the dinner table in the Ó Cathasaigh household, unfortunately.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

What are they like at making up, though? This is what we need to know about. The fights will not change but it is the making up that is important.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is not a great record of that, I am afraid.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

Would Deputy Ó Laoghaire like to come back in?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Yes. I will pick up on some of these points. It occurs to me that some of the challenges concerning access to devices, and I see this in me, is the impact a phone and social media have on concentration and focus. It is all the more so for young people who have hardly known any different. That is why things like sport, gardening and growing vegetables and creative writing are all so important. It also occurs to me that libraries and deep proper reading is another great way to achieve this kind of more focused engagement with a task and setting aside all other kinds of stuff. Is there a role here for libraries in bringing us back to focus? How could we expand on that?

On a more positive note, and again posing this question to Dr. Muldoon, in regard to older children, there seems to be some indication that there has been some marginal reduction in alcohol abuse among this generation, although there is still harmful behaviour. I think we are calling it generation Z, kids aged between 14 and 18. Is Dr. Muldoon beginning to see any of this reduction? Is there much that we can point to in this regard? Alcohol and drug abuse have a major impact on mental health. There is, obviously, a great deal of harmful and risky behaviour still and we should be far from complacent, but there seems to be some germ of a positive in this regard. Would Dr. Muldoon like to comment?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I suggest the Deputy is right. I am sure Ms Connolly from Barnardos will have more face-to-face information on this subject, but from my perspective I think the suggestion is correct. On the positive side, many more young people are body-aware and health-aware in respect of not smoking and not drinking and physically doing things. Many people who would never have done sport are now going to the gym. I think there is a move in that direction and that it is part of being environmentally, climate and personally aware and the sense that people need to look after themselves and that society is not going to help them. There are great positives certainly. I am involved with many teenage groups and I can see more and more of them are not drinking in the way they would have before. It is much less, and not on weekends but occasionally. This is anecdotal from my perspective but perhaps Ms Connolly might have a comment.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I agree. It is important to engage with people because they are bright, able and interested. We must talk to them in a spirit of equality about recognising that there are links to mental health in the context of alcohol, which is a depressant. The highs are temporary and young people know that. If we are enabling young people to have resources to deal with their emotions, then sportspeople are great role models because many more of them are talking about this subject. They talk about feeling a bit low or of being anxious or depressed, which is great, but we need to recognise that not everyone is a sportsperson. We need to think of other activities. These could be growing vegetables, dancing or singing. The more of these types of activities we introduce, the better. The media are important. We can all focus on the negative. The report from the ESRI does not discuss the positives but focuses on the negatives. That is not helpful for young people. We must also lead by example in talking about their strengths and their passion for climate action. Adults must do that so that young people can then trust us regarding what we might say about what will contribute to their well-being.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I thank Dr. Muldoon and Ms Connolly. Does Ms Moran wish to comment on the role of libraries?

Ms Kathleen Moran

Libraries definitely have a role in pulling students back into reading. Regarding concerns about social media, there is so much misuse of social media but it also has much to offer in the context of access to information. What is missing, for the most part, in our system is the teaching of these skills and teaching our young people how to use and access what they need to find out through social media. Young people now are very much natives in terms of being able to use these devices but they are not native in gaining from this activity all the good things that can be gained from it. In respect of mental health supports and reading, we would argue there is no safer place to find out information than through the pages of a book and to be guided towards this information by professionals within schools. Well-stocked and well-resourced school libraries have so much to offer in guiding students, whatever their needs might be, whether they are suffering from bullying or have concerns about family issues at home, and in supporting families with family literacy.

We bring in parents all the time for book clubs, etc. I attended one recently and I do not think books were mentioned at all among the group. They were talking to each other about their concerns, such as having a child going for an operation the following week or whatever other concerns they may have had. There is so much more involved. Having this space and these facilities in schools and providing access to them is so important because they are not there for everybody by any means. The public library service is wonderful but it cannot provide what the schools libraries do. I have worked in both contexts for many years now and I strongly believe that if we want young people to access the services of libraries, we have to introduce them to them in schools. We have found that these children will then go on to use the local public library service. If they go on to third level education, post-leaving certificate courses or university, they will go on to use the library services there as well. However, children need to be introduced to libraries in schools because they are a captive audience.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

On the issue of libraries, I was impressed by the sensory room that Belmullet library has. I had never seen it before, but I was there last week, and there was a table with games on it. What a wonderful safe space for people who are stressed out, whether children or adults, to have and to be able to relax in. I agree regarding the work libraries are doing. The greater a role libraries can play, the better. I commend all the libraries. They are so important.

On Ms Connolly's recommendation on further funding and provision of universal and targeted early intervention programmes, where does Barnardos wish to see the funding and resources targeted? I imagine being in a school where teachers are already stressed out and trying to cope with the day-to-day things to get through each day, never mind what they may be experiencing themselves in respect of accommodation and affordability, etc. How can we then hope to have universal early intervention programmes when schools are under so much stress and strain?

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I agree with the Deputy that a lot is asked of schools and teachers. Barnardos tend to bring the resource into schools and teachers appreciate that because they already have so much on their plate. Also sometimes, for things like a national wellbeing programme, the Roots of Empathy programme or the friendship programme, but particularly the other two, children are observed in a different way. The teachers are invited to participate if they wish or certainly to observe and teachers find that to be a very useful resource. I believe that it is crucial that we do not put extra pressure on teachers.

On the point made about funding, one of the challenges, and I do not know if it is a common issue for everybody, is to figure out from which Department potential funding for programmes could come from. The work done by GIY could mean funding could come from the Department of Education, the Department of Health, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine or the Department of Rural and Community Development. The silo thinking that tends to happen makes identifying a potential source of funding even more challenging.

Absolutely. The Acting Chairman mentioned the digital library service. We operate a digital library service to all pre-2022 second level DEIS schools in the country because the 38 schools that have joined this year have not been facilitated to join, unfortunately.

Audiobooks are very popular across our students and there were some 85,000 items borrowed from that library last year by students across the country, so it is a fantastic service. Unfortunately, we were promised additional funding this year to service all of those schools but it has not come through, so it looks like we may have to cut the service as opposed to expanding it, which is very unfortunate. We think it is very important to look at what can be done, what is there that is valuable, and to support it. Unfortunately, we do not seem to be going that way. The committee has supported the expansion of that to become a national service but it is actually going the other way at the moment, and it is going to be cut as we have a significant cut in funding this year.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

Those recommendations were in the report.

Ms Kathleen Moran

There were also the issues of Ukrainian students, space for students and leaving certificate reform.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Ms Moran. That is crucial. A secondary school in my town recently joined the DEIS programme as well. It is crucial that we get all services delivered.

I have two final questions. The first is for Dr. Muldoon. The Department of Health established the national youth mental health task force in 2017. Dr. Muldoon might be able to describe the efforts to engage with relevant Departments to implement the pathfinder project.

On a question to Mr. Kelly, did Grow It Yourself link in with the school meals programme to encourage children to eat what they are growing? The school meals programme comes from the Department of Rural and Community Development as well. Mr. Kelly might also comment on the Sport Ireland question.

I have a question for Mr. Ó Cuanacháin, who spoke previously with committee members about the type of activities that Fighting Words does. I think what it does is amazing. That creativity and being able to open up a child's mind to see that the world does not have to be the world right now, and to see how they can perceive it in the future, is one of the fantastic things that Fighting Words does on a daily basis. I look forward to seeing that being rolled out even more. To have reached 240,000 students is a wonderful achievement.

That is the final round of questions so I also ask the witnesses to make their final comments.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The pathfinder project originated in 2014 as a Civil Service renewal project where the Civil Service agreed to show its ability and agility to adapt and change. It took three different projects, one of which was on mental health, and it agreed that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Education and the Department of Health would create a single unit, staffed by various principal officers and assistant principals from around the different Departments, to allow for a smoother transition of children and youth mental health systems. Again, this was acknowledging the fact that a teacher will refer a child for a mental health issue to the local GP, the GP will refer it on to CAMHS, and all three Departments are engaged in that system. It is to make it easier and smoother and to make everything work better.

The funding was agreed for five years in a row and all three Secretaries General agreed it would happen, but it has never happened. Every time I have chased it in the last five years, the suggestion is that it is being done under section 12 of the Civil Service Act of 1998, or the public service Act, although I am not quite sure of the logistics. There is legislation that needs a statutory instrument but the Department of Health is the legal lead on that, and it has not happened yet. I have written to numerous different Ministers on this and I keep being pushed around in circles. Those in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are the final people because they fund it, but they have not got anything from the Department of Health, and the Department of Health says it has been working on it for the last five years and it is imminent. The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, the last time she spoke in the Dáil on a parliamentary question that I am aware of, which was probably in March, said it should be happening soon, but it has been said to me for the last five years that is imminent. I would hate anything to be delivered to my staff that was supposed to be imminent but did not come for five years. It really has not happened.

Again, the whole idea of a pathfinder is that it is difficult to make it happen because you are finding your own path, but five years should be more than enough time to make it happen. It is exactly what we need now, when we are talking about moving things into smoother and more holistic cross-departmental work. If that unit was in place now, what we are suggesting for schools would be much easier to make happen. If there could be any support on that, it would be great to see it happen.

Mr. Michael Kelly

Grow It Yourself very much welcomes the expansion of the school food programme and we think it is critical to ensure that children who need access to hot lunches, hot dinners and so on in schools are able to receive that. It is brilliant that it has moved beyond sandwiches and that sort of snacking into more substantial hot meals that are nutritious.

In Waterford, we ran a programme called Eat Together, which focused on trying to get children to sit and eat together, and develop the social skills that are often missing. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh mentioned the issue of families not sitting down to eat together as often. The pilot programme involved us sending hot lunches into the school, and we used vegetables that we had grown in the Grow It Yourself HQ in Waterford. The children sat together and had a more mindful experience of lunch. They had the proper amount of time to sit, eat and enjoy the programme together. It was much more like the way school lunches are enjoyed in French schools, and so on. We feel like the Grow It Yourself programme is complementary to the school food programme. We are very open to exploring further links there. Our big challenge at the moment is that it costs around €2,000 to deliver a school garden and all the supports that go along with that. With an ambition to reach 1,600 schools over three years, one can imagine that massive funding will be required. We have raised around €600,000 so far for the programme, mainly from philanthropy. We are asking the committee to support us in trying to get the State to step up and at least contribute to that funding. I think funding will continue to be a mix of philanthropy and corporate social responsibility, CSR, funding and so on. The State should be part of that funding mix to put food literacy at the heart of our education system.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I might just read out a question from Senator Flynn that she passed on to me. In the note, she apologises for her absence today. She is speaking at the national Traveller mental health conference in Croke Park, so cannot be here. She notes:

This week is college awareness week, and students across the country are planning their paths to college as we speak. Unfortunately, only 1% of the students who make it to third level will be from the Travelling community. This is the harsh reality. To bridge this gap we must start with wraparound supports, particularly for marginalised groups, as early as primary school level. My question is for the Ombudsman for Children. In your opening statement you mentioned the English model, which involves providing mental health supports to school children using a joint approach from the Department of Education and the Department of Health via the NHS. This joint working saw a reduction of close to 1,000 children on the CAMHS waiting list in the past year in just one area that serves ten schools. This can be seen in stark contrast to Ireland, where in the past year the CAMHS waiting list has grown. Can you elaborate on this model and tell the committee why it is important that the Irish Government should take the lead on this?

I am asking the question on behalf of Senator Flynn.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

To reiterate, my understanding of the English model - and the committee has heard from professionals involved in it - is that a team is created to work with a cluster of schools. In the example referenced, the cluster consisted of ten schools. A team of four or five professionals engage with those schools throughout the different levels. This creates opportunities for the children to learn about mental health in its widest sense and to do peer work and group work together on mental health and emotional well-being. It also creates opportunities for the parents and the teachers to learn about it. It upskills everybody within the education system around mental health. The children who need direct support have access to a clinical psychologist or a counsellor of some form. I think eight to ten sessions are provided, on average, and mild to moderate mental health issues are looked at. It could be that a child is upset because his or her parents are separating or he or she has just lost a grandparent. I am referring to issues that are not serious that could turn into something more serious. In the area where the model has been implemented, they have found that within one year they have been able to work with more than 1,000 children. Many of those children were previously already waiting for long periods to time to get into CAMHS settings. There is research and backup evidence on the English model. It has worked extremely well across Departments. It has to be the model we start to build here. It does not have to be exactly the same here, but it has to be the model we start to look at recreating in an Irish setting.

It is very concerning, as Senator Flynn noted, that so few Travellers make it as far as the end of secondary school, never mind on to university. I think that is part of what we need to do. We must create that self-esteem that we talk about in primary school, and the children's holistic understanding of themselves and the ability to dream bigger. I have seen many children from Traveller backgrounds who are very bright. Our teachers are sometimes not able to see it. They are working from old templates, according to which every Traveller goes in a certain direction, gets married early and leaves education. There are a lot more younger children coming through who want to complete their education and are being supported by their parents from within the Travelling community to do that. A lot of change is needed, from that point of view, to get more young people from Traveller backgrounds into university. It is our education system that has to adapt to these young people. I have spoken to one or two young girls of 14 or 15 years of age. They told me that because their older sisters got married at 16, the teachers were not willing to work with them and would only give them a certain amount of time because it was felt they would be gone soon. We need to change that old-fashioned thinking. It is not everywhere, but it is something we need to work on. Hopefully, it is an issue on which we will see progress being made in the future.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

I thank Ms Tara Kelly, clerk of the committee, who has just reminded me that it was Ms Sarah Stockham, clinical lead, Dorset mental health support team, who attended the committee on 8 November. In their final statements I ask each of the witnesses to give us one key recommendation they believe would make a significant difference to mental health supports in our schools, both primary and secondary, and potentially to our colleges as well. That would be very much appreciated. I also thank all witnesses for their contributions today. We have explored many different issues. It is great to learn so much more about the activities of the organisations represented. We will start with Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Michael Kelly

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today. We feel that we have a programme that works successfully in schools. It has been piloted in well over 130 schools at this stage, and we want to take it to every primary school in Ireland. Thankfully, the Government is doing a lot of work in supporting social enterprises. We are a social enterprise that has developed a programme we think can embed food literacy in our education system permanently. We must establish school gardens as a foundational element so that every child goes through our school system knowing where their food comes from and how to produce it. We would appreciate any support members of the committee can give us to help make that a reality.

Ms Suzanne Connolly

I would like the committee to look not just at Barnardo's programmes, but other programmes that are evidence-based and that really work, and to think about ways of supporting them. I have not looked at the Dorset model in detail, but I wonder about that level of resourcing for mild mental health issues. I think there are a lot of programmes that can provide support for mild mental health issues. We need that resourcing for issues that are not mild - those that are moderate and more serious. I would caution against using heavy resources for mild mental health issues. We must ensure that programmes are evidence-based. The capacity to implement them is also really important. There are also questions to be asked on resourcing in terms of staffing.

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

From the Department of Education, the NCCA, the Teaching Council as the key agencies looking at space in the curriculum and what happens in our schools, there needs to be a recognition of the evidence and the importance around arts and creativity in schools. There must be space for creative education, creative writing and creative play in school at every level. Linked to that, it must be part of teacher education, to ensure that teachers have the skills, confidence and capability to deliver on creative education methodologies that will provide a space for children to enjoy well-being and mental health at a different level in the school system.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

And also to have some fun.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I am delighted and excited to hear about this new initiative from the Department of Education around therapy within schools. I think we need to build it properly and allow it to grow from primary through to secondary, so that every child has the opportunity to access it. It will also take away the stigma of engaging with therapeutic services, and encourage children to see it as a holistic support for them throughout their lifetime.

Ms Kathleen Moran

I thank the committee for inviting us. Our one request would be to ask the committee to broaden its understanding of what school libraries bring to the table in mental health supports and all sorts of other supports to students. Having that space within the school, a place of sanctuary and a place of safety, is important. Another librarian told me she had a student over a number of years who was bullied and suffered with serious mental health issues. She said she came to the library most days to have a place to cry. When she left the school, she said that having a place to be able to come out of the routine she was finding so difficult was probably what saved her in the school. That place is very important and it can be what we want to make it to be. We use the term "library", but it is about so much more than books.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

So, we need a new title. In her submission, Ms Moran spoke about one good adult, which is an unusual term. One would assume that in a child's life there would be a few people but I suppose this refers to a trusted person to whom they can speak in confidence and in a safe space. As she said, libraries provide a safe space and we should expand that within our school libraries. Space is an issue for many schools. We need much more space and need new school buildings, which is a challenge.

Ms Kathleen Moran

Library spaces are being included in all new secondary schools being built. They are being furnished, albeit with unsuitable furniture, but they are not staffed. A home economics room has a teacher. A science room has a teacher. Money is being put into creating this library space but the final step is missing.

Acting Chairman (Senator Aisling Dolan)

It may be about looking at how we open that up. I thank the witnesses and I appreciate them giving their time to the committee today. We should invite Mr. Kelly to set up a garden in the Oireachtas. We would benefit greatly from growing our own vegetables and eating well, although I suppose we eat well in our canteen here. We also have a wonderful library here. Today's discussion has been productive on an issue of great importance. I commend all the witnesses on their Trojan efforts to support young people in innovative and creative ways. I speak on behalf of all committee members when I say that their insights accentuate the positive in young people and proactively promote good mental health.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.03 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 29 November 2022.

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht - Tuesday, 22 Nov 2022

Mental Health Supports in Schools and Tertiary Education: Discussion (Resumed)

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Ms Kathleen Moran

Mr. Michael Kelly

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

Mr. Michael Kelly

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Mr. Michael Kelly

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Mr. Michael Kelly

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Mr. Michael Kelly

Ms Suzanne Connolly

Dr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Ms Kathleen Moran

Ms Kathleen Moran

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Nov 2022